Discussion:
"Uncle Orson Reviews Everything, May 22, 2019"
(too old to reply)
Lynn McGuire
2019-07-21 01:30:03 UTC
Permalink
"Uncle Orson Reviews Everything, May 22, 2019"
http://www.hatrack.com/osc/reviews/everything/2019-05-22.shtml

"When you write a screenplay, you aren't "making a movie." The people
who "make the movie" are the people who get to shred your script and
turn it into something you wouldn't even recognize. What you're doing is
trying to create something that will get somebody to pay you a bunch of
money in exchange for beating your script into pulp."

"If somebody treated your child the way Hollywood treats movie
screenplays, you would hunt them down and kill them, and no jury would
convict you."

Lynn
Gene Wirchenko
2019-07-22 19:21:25 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 20:30:03 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
"Uncle Orson Reviews Everything, May 22, 2019"
http://www.hatrack.com/osc/reviews/everything/2019-05-22.shtml
"When you write a screenplay, you aren't "making a movie." The people
who "make the movie" are the people who get to shred your script and
turn it into something you wouldn't even recognize. What you're doing is
trying to create something that will get somebody to pay you a bunch of
money in exchange for beating your script into pulp."
"If somebody treated your child the way Hollywood treats movie
screenplays, you would hunt them down and kill them, and no jury would
convict you."
I like how the contrast was made between Hollywood and other
areas where the author's work is respected.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Default User
2019-07-24 01:30:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
"If somebody treated your child the way Hollywood treats movie
screenplays, you would hunt them down and kill them, and no jury would
convict you."
Of course, many authors would like to hunt down screenwriters that shredded their novels.


Brian
D B Davis
2019-07-24 14:33:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Default User
Post by Lynn McGuire
"If somebody treated your child the way Hollywood treats movie
screenplays, you would hunt them down and kill them, and no jury would
convict you."
Of course, many authors would like to hunt down screenwriters that shredded their novels.
Sometimes Hollywood takes and sometimes it gives in regards to RAH.
First it butchers _Starship Troopers_. And then it adds excessive
violence to "-All You Zombies-."
Hollywood's many PKD treatments are a mixed bag. _A Scanner Darkly_
and _Radio Free Alemuth_ mostly follow the original stories.
_The Man In the High Castle_ originally features one minor SS spy in
the Rocky Mountain neutral zone and briefly uses a Messerschmitt 9-E
German rocket ship in flight as a setting. Its treatment introduces a
Reichsmarschall as a major character and adds the Greater Reich and
Germany as major settings.
Hollywood makes a romance out of the _Adjustment Team_. It did the
same thing with "Breakfast At Tiffany's."
Hollywood also employs script doctors such as Harlan Ellison.
_Beetlejuice_ becomes much more upbeat after script doctor Warren
Skaaren polishes it.

Betelgeuse wanted to rape Lydia. He was summoned through
his bones being exhumed, not via his name being uttered
three times. There was another Deetz daughter, aged nine
and named Cathy. The rules were less set in stone. The
tone, far darker and more brutal for sure. It sounds
decent enough, and perhaps like it would have been a
good B-movie project for Craven or Cosmatos at the time.
But there would have been no Harry Belafonte.

https://consequenceofsound.net/2018/03/were-very-unhappy-how-endless-rewrites-saved-beetlejuice/



Thank you,
--
Don
)\._.,--....,'``.
/, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
`._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
My cat's telltale, tall tail tells tall tales.
Scott Lurndal
2019-07-24 14:50:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
Post by Default User
Post by Lynn McGuire
"If somebody treated your child the way Hollywood treats movie
screenplays, you would hunt them down and kill them, and no jury would
convict you."
Of course, many authors would like to hunt down screenwriters that shredded their novels.
Sometimes Hollywood takes and sometimes it gives in regards to RAH.
First it butchers _Starship Troopers_. And then it adds excessive
violence to "-All You Zombies-."
The _Puppet Masters_ film was fairly close to the novel, sans nudity.
Mike Van Pelt
2019-07-24 17:17:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by D B Davis
Sometimes Hollywood takes and sometimes it gives in regards to RAH.
First it butchers _Starship Troopers_. And then it adds excessive
violence to "-All You Zombies-."
The _Puppet Masters_ film was fairly close to the novel, sans nudity.
Yeah... I was fairly impressed with how much of the novel they
retained. Donald Sutherland really nailed the role of "The Old
Man." Its main change was that they got a handle on the slugs
before Schedule Suntan was necessary.

And how the heck did they get that baby chimp to act so *creepy*?

It's too bad they ran out of money and couldn't do a proper
alien spaceship. (The makers of the movie published an account
online some time ago detailing the issues they ran into.)

The only part that ticked me off was (Yaphet Kotto?)'s character
being able to partially and intermittently resist the slugs.
The whole horror of the things was that *nobody* was immune,
once one of those things hooked into your brain, you couldn't
even *think* about *wanting* to resist.
--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston
J. Clarke
2019-07-25 00:41:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by D B Davis
Sometimes Hollywood takes and sometimes it gives in regards to RAH.
First it butchers _Starship Troopers_. And then it adds excessive
violence to "-All You Zombies-."
The _Puppet Masters_ film was fairly close to the novel, sans nudity.
Yeah... I was fairly impressed with how much of the novel they
retained. Donald Sutherland really nailed the role of "The Old
Man." Its main change was that they got a handle on the slugs
before Schedule Suntan was necessary.
And how the heck did they get that baby chimp to act so *creepy*?
It's too bad they ran out of money and couldn't do a proper
alien spaceship. (The makers of the movie published an account
online some time ago detailing the issues they ran into.)
The only part that ticked me off was (Yaphet Kotto?)'s character
being able to partially and intermittently resist the slugs.
The whole horror of the things was that *nobody* was immune,
once one of those things hooked into your brain, you couldn't
even *think* about *wanting* to resist.
The thing that bothered me about it was that it totally lacked the
ambiance. Heinlein placed it in a spacefaring culture with nuclear
energy commonplace (remember the General Atomics house core?) and
heavy aircar traffic.
Mike Van Pelt
2019-07-25 17:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Scott Lurndal
The _Puppet Masters_ film was fairly close to the novel, sans nudity.
The thing that bothered me about it was that it totally lacked the
ambiance. Heinlein placed it in a spacefaring culture with nuclear
energy commonplace (remember the General Atomics house core?) and
heavy aircar traffic.
The decision to place it in present-day, rather than a spacefaring
culture ... I guess I missed that aspect of the book, but I think
for a movie, it was probably the right decision.

Heinlein's background for this culture assumed things about the
other planets in the Solar System that we now know are just wrong.
The plague that wiped out the slugs was a virus picked up by
the colonists on Venus, IIRC.
--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-07-25 21:27:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Scott Lurndal
The _Puppet Masters_ film was fairly close to the novel, sans nudity.
The thing that bothered me about it was that it totally lacked the
ambiance. Heinlein placed it in a spacefaring culture with nuclear
energy commonplace (remember the General Atomics house core?) and
heavy aircar traffic.
The decision to place it in present-day, rather than a spacefaring
culture ... I guess I missed that aspect of the book, but I think
for a movie, it was probably the right decision.
Consider how many different treatments _The War of the Worlds_
has had, each of them placing the Martian invasion in "the
present day," and each of them drawing a parallel to a situation
in "the present day."

E.g., when Wells wrote the original novel, Britain was running
all over the planet colonizing it, and the sun never set on its
properties, and the novel was Wells' way of saying, "What if it
were happen to you?"

In 1938, when Orson Welles did the radio broadcast, everyone was
worried about Hitler ... and had reason to be.

In 1953, when George Pal filmed the story, it was the middle of
the Cold War and everyone was worried about invasion, not by
Martians, but by Russians.

The 1998-1990 television series was a deliberate sequel to the
Pal film, but by then everybody was worried about AIDS, and (in
extreme cases) feared *everyone* because they might be hiding an
alien infection.

I never saw the later film, but from what I read about it, it
looks as if they were catering to fears of repeats of 911.
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Heinlein's background for this culture assumed things about the
other planets in the Solar System that we now know are just wrong.
The plague that wiped out the slugs was a virus picked up by
the colonists on Venus, IIRC.
Correct.

"But I thought you knew. It was 'nine-day fever.'"
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Robert Carnegie
2019-07-25 21:53:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Scott Lurndal
The _Puppet Masters_ film was fairly close to the novel, sans nudity.
The thing that bothered me about it was that it totally lacked the
ambiance. Heinlein placed it in a spacefaring culture with nuclear
energy commonplace (remember the General Atomics house core?) and
heavy aircar traffic.
The decision to place it in present-day, rather than a spacefaring
culture ... I guess I missed that aspect of the book, but I think
for a movie, it was probably the right decision.
Consider how many different treatments _The War of the Worlds_
has had, each of them placing the Martian invasion in "the
present day," and each of them drawing a parallel to a situation
in "the present day."
E.g., when Wells wrote the original novel, Britain was running
all over the planet colonizing it, and the sun never set on its
properties, and the novel was Wells' way of saying, "What if it
were happen to you?"
In 1938, when Orson Welles did the radio broadcast, everyone was
worried about Hitler ... and had reason to be.
In 1953, when George Pal filmed the story, it was the middle of
the Cold War and everyone was worried about invasion, not by
Martians, but by Russians.
The 1998-1990 television series was a deliberate sequel to the
Pal film, but by then everybody was worried about AIDS, and (in
extreme cases) feared *everyone* because they might be hiding an
alien infection.
I never saw the later film, but from what I read about it, it
looks as if they were catering to fears of repeats of 911.
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Heinlein's background for this culture assumed things about the
other planets in the Solar System that we now know are just wrong.
The plague that wiped out the slugs was a virus picked up by
the colonists on Venus, IIRC.
Correct.
"But I thought you knew. It was 'nine-day fever.'"
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
But see <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_Invaded>
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-07-26 00:13:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Scott Lurndal
The _Puppet Masters_ film was fairly close to the novel, sans nudity.
The thing that bothered me about it was that it totally lacked the
ambiance. Heinlein placed it in a spacefaring culture with nuclear
energy commonplace (remember the General Atomics house core?) and
heavy aircar traffic.
The decision to place it in present-day, rather than a spacefaring
culture ... I guess I missed that aspect of the book, but I think
for a movie, it was probably the right decision.
Consider how many different treatments _The War of the Worlds_
has had, each of them placing the Martian invasion in "the
present day," and each of them drawing a parallel to a situation
in "the present day."
E.g., when Wells wrote the original novel, Britain was running
all over the planet colonizing it, and the sun never set on its
properties, and the novel was Wells' way of saying, "What if it
were happen to you?"
In 1938, when Orson Welles did the radio broadcast, everyone was
worried about Hitler ... and had reason to be.
In 1953, when George Pal filmed the story, it was the middle of
the Cold War and everyone was worried about invasion, not by
Martians, but by Russians.
The 1998-1990 television series was a deliberate sequel to the
Pal film, but by then everybody was worried about AIDS, and (in
extreme cases) feared *everyone* because they might be hiding an
alien infection.
I never saw the later film, but from what I read about it, it
looks as if they were catering to fears of repeats of 911.
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Heinlein's background for this culture assumed things about the
other planets in the Solar System that we now know are just wrong.
The plague that wiped out the slugs was a virus picked up by
the colonists on Venus, IIRC.
Correct.
"But I thought you knew. It was 'nine-day fever.'"
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
But see <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_Invaded>
Yes. I have on my shelves a book of that genre, titled (IIRC)
_The Invasion of 1910_. (I can't check the title because the
shelves in question are barricaded by tubs full of computer
equipment which I can't lift.) It involves, well, the invasion
of England by Germany. I have never been able to read past the
first few pages, so I don't know how it came out.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
David Johnston
2019-07-26 01:23:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by D B Davis
Sometimes Hollywood takes and sometimes it gives in regards to RAH.
First it butchers _Starship Troopers_. And then it adds excessive
violence to "-All You Zombies-."
The _Puppet Masters_ film was fairly close to the novel, sans nudity.
Yeah... I was fairly impressed with how much of the novel they
retained. Donald Sutherland really nailed the role of "The Old
Man." Its main change was that they got a handle on the slugs
before Schedule Suntan was necessary.
And how the heck did they get that baby chimp to act so *creepy*?
It's too bad they ran out of money and couldn't do a proper
alien spaceship. (The makers of the movie published an account
online some time ago detailing the issues they ran into.)
The only part that ticked me off was (Yaphet Kotto?)'s character
being able to partially and intermittently resist the slugs.
The whole horror of the things was that *nobody* was immune,
once one of those things hooked into your brain, you couldn't
even *think* about *wanting* to resist.
The thing that bothered me about it was that it totally lacked the
ambiance. Heinlein placed it in a spacefaring culture with nuclear
energy commonplace (remember the General Atomics house core?) and
heavy aircar traffic.
I'm not sure the hokey 1950s future would have made it a more effective
horror movie.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-07-26 02:35:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by D B Davis
Sometimes Hollywood takes and sometimes it gives in regards to RAH.
First it butchers _Starship Troopers_. And then it adds excessive
violence to "-All You Zombies-."
The _Puppet Masters_ film was fairly close to the novel, sans nudity.
Yeah... I was fairly impressed with how much of the novel they
retained. Donald Sutherland really nailed the role of "The Old
Man." Its main change was that they got a handle on the slugs
before Schedule Suntan was necessary.
And how the heck did they get that baby chimp to act so *creepy*?
It's too bad they ran out of money and couldn't do a proper
alien spaceship. (The makers of the movie published an account
online some time ago detailing the issues they ran into.)
The only part that ticked me off was (Yaphet Kotto?)'s character
being able to partially and intermittently resist the slugs.
The whole horror of the things was that *nobody* was immune,
once one of those things hooked into your brain, you couldn't
even *think* about *wanting* to resist.
The thing that bothered me about it was that it totally lacked the
ambiance. Heinlein placed it in a spacefaring culture with nuclear
energy commonplace (remember the General Atomics house core?) and
heavy aircar traffic.
I'm not sure the hokey 1950s future would have made it a more effective
horror movie.
Only if the film had been made in the hokey 1950s. Imagine, if
you will, a film of _TPM_ done with 1950s tech on a 1950s budget.

On the other hand, the H. P. Lovecraft Society did an excellent,
1920s-style, *silent* film of _The Call of Chthulu_, on a very low
budget, and it came out authentic to its period and really rather
convincing. Wobbly cardboard sets and all.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
J. Clarke
2019-07-26 10:16:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by D B Davis
Sometimes Hollywood takes and sometimes it gives in regards to RAH.
First it butchers _Starship Troopers_. And then it adds excessive
violence to "-All You Zombies-."
The _Puppet Masters_ film was fairly close to the novel, sans nudity.
Yeah... I was fairly impressed with how much of the novel they
retained. Donald Sutherland really nailed the role of "The Old
Man." Its main change was that they got a handle on the slugs
before Schedule Suntan was necessary.
And how the heck did they get that baby chimp to act so *creepy*?
It's too bad they ran out of money and couldn't do a proper
alien spaceship. (The makers of the movie published an account
online some time ago detailing the issues they ran into.)
The only part that ticked me off was (Yaphet Kotto?)'s character
being able to partially and intermittently resist the slugs.
The whole horror of the things was that *nobody* was immune,
once one of those things hooked into your brain, you couldn't
even *think* about *wanting* to resist.
The thing that bothered me about it was that it totally lacked the
ambiance. Heinlein placed it in a spacefaring culture with nuclear
energy commonplace (remember the General Atomics house core?) and
heavy aircar traffic.
I'm not sure the hokey 1950s future would have made it a more effective
horror movie.
Only if the film had been made in the hokey 1950s. Imagine, if
you will, a film of _TPM_ done with 1950s tech on a 1950s budget.
On the other hand, the H. P. Lovecraft Society did an excellent,
1920s-style, *silent* film of _The Call of Chthulu_, on a very low
budget, and it came out authentic to its period and really rather
convincing. Wobbly cardboard sets and all.
The thing is, a '50s future only looks hokey if it's poorly executed.
While many terms could be used to describe "Blade Runner", "hokey"
isn't one of them. I've never heard it applied to "The Fifth Element"
either. And both have most of the items that are the hardest sells in
a '50s future.
Scott Lurndal
2019-07-26 13:48:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Scott Lurndal
The _Puppet Masters_ film was fairly close to the novel, sans nudity.
Yeah... I was fairly impressed with how much of the novel they
retained. Donald Sutherland really nailed the role of "The Old
Man." Its main change was that they got a handle on the slugs
before Schedule Suntan was necessary.
The thing that bothered me about it was that it totally lacked the
ambiance. Heinlein placed it in a spacefaring culture with nuclear
energy commonplace (remember the General Atomics house core?) and
heavy aircar traffic.
I'm not sure the hokey 1950s future would have made it a more effective
horror movie.
Only if the film had been made in the hokey 1950s. Imagine, if
you will, a film of _TPM_ done with 1950s tech on a 1950s budget.
On the other hand, the H. P. Lovecraft Society did an excellent,
1920s-style, *silent* film of _The Call of Chthulu_, on a very low
budget, and it came out authentic to its period and really rather
convincing. Wobbly cardboard sets and all.
The thing is, a '50s future only looks hokey if it's poorly executed.
While many terms could be used to describe "Blade Runner", "hokey"
isn't one of them. I've never heard it applied to "The Fifth Element"
either. And both have most of the items that are the hardest sells in
a '50s future.
The Fifth Element had a budget of $90 million. The budget for
_The Puppet Masters_ was likely less that $5 million.
David DeLaney
2019-07-27 03:52:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Van Pelt
And how the heck did they get that baby chimp to act so *creepy*?
Thread derail: speaking of creepy, I've been a fan of Peter Hollens' vocal work
for some time now, but was JUST alerted to the existence of this: (safe for
work and/or Dorothy)

<
>

Dave, i'm making a note here / make it a b-note / make it a c-note and we'll
take the case!

ps: hmm, ok, the constant tossing of The Cake at people's heads is ALSO creepy.
but that wasn't the creepy I was bringing it here for
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David Johnston
2019-10-30 05:05:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by D B Davis
Post by Default User
Post by Lynn McGuire
"If somebody treated your child the way Hollywood treats movie
screenplays, you would hunt them down and kill them, and no jury would
convict you."
Of course, many authors would like to hunt down screenwriters that shredded
their novels.
Sometimes Hollywood takes and sometimes it gives in regards to RAH.
First it butchers _Starship Troopers_. And then it adds excessive
violence to "-All You Zombies-."
The _Puppet Masters_ film was fairly close to the novel, sans nudity.
But getting everyone naked was the whole point!

Richard Hershberger
2019-07-24 17:04:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
"Uncle Orson Reviews Everything, May 22, 2019"
http://www.hatrack.com/osc/reviews/everything/2019-05-22.shtml
"When you write a screenplay, you aren't "making a movie." The people
who "make the movie" are the people who get to shred your script and
turn it into something you wouldn't even recognize. What you're doing is
trying to create something that will get somebody to pay you a bunch of
money in exchange for beating your script into pulp."
"If somebody treated your child the way Hollywood treats movie
screenplays, you would hunt them down and kill them, and no jury would
convict you."
I don't watch many theatrical films. I do, however, watch a lot of television (in the broad sense to include pure streaming shows) including, but not exclusively, "prestige" television. I think that the linked piece explains why. The shows I like are all about the writing. There needs to be adequate actors, but that is about the only other criterion. I don't really care about special effects, or production values in general. A gorgeous production with mediocre writing is a mediocre production. A show with nothing sets and costuming, but great writing? I'm in! Add better actors and this gets even better, but great acting won't save crappy writing.

Television understands this at least some of the time, however imperfectly the principle is implemented. Movies do not. Sometimes you do get good writing, but this seems almost be accident.

Richard R. Hershberger
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