Discussion:
Where, when and who were the time travellers?
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Thomas Koenig
2019-06-10 20:57:31 UTC
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There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
Jack Bohn
2019-06-10 22:20:59 UTC
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There was an earlier war when George Washington was *not* shot. Was there a Founding Father eho could have had a presidency that set the same pattern for the new nation? Not least, not having a dynasty to ensure, so stepping down after a while in favor of... of whoever was chosen to replace him. Still, if we didn't have him, I don't know how far the time travellers would cast their net for him, if they would've found a "good enough" selection elsrwhen.
--
-Jack
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-06-10 23:51:06 UTC
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Post by Jack Bohn
There was an earlier war when George Washington was *not* shot. Was
there a Founding Father who could have had a presidency that set the
same pattern for the new nation? Not least, not having a dynasty to
ensure, so stepping down after a while in favor of... of whoever was
chosen to replace him. Still, if we didn't have him, I don't know how
far the time travellers would cast their net for him, if they would've
found a "good enough" selection elsrwhen.
Reminiscent of "If Lee Had Not Won at Gettysburg," by none other
than Winston Churchill.

However, if you're postulating a universe in which Washington
founded a dynasty, I have to point out that geneticists have
concluded (from his appearance, something about the eyelids)
that he was an XXY male and as sterile as boiling water. Martha
Washington had had several children by her first husband, Mr.
Custis, none by George.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jack Bohn
2019-06-11 00:52:22 UTC
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There was an earlier war when George Washington was *not* shot.  Was 
there a Founding Father who could have had a presidency that set the 
same pattern for the new nation?  Not least, not having a dynasty to 
ensure, so stepping down after a while in favor of... of whoever was 
chosen to replace him.  Still, if we didn't have him, I don't know how 
far the time travellers would cast their net for him, if they would've 
found a "good enough" selection elsrwhen. 
Reminiscent of "If Lee Had Not Won at Gettysburg," by none other 
than Winston Churchill. 

However, if you're postulating a universe in which Washington 
founded a dynasty, I have to point out that geneticists have 
concluded (from his appearance, something about the eyelids) 
that he was an XXY male and as sterile as boiling water. 
Jack Bohn
2019-06-11 01:02:11 UTC
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Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Jack Bohn
George Washington
However, if you're postulating a universe in which Washington 
founded a dynasty, I have to point out that geneticists have 
concluded (from his appearance, something about the eyelids) 
that he was an XXY male and as sterile as boiling water. 
No, I'm suggesting a dynasty from the general the Continental Army had to get instead, or the guy who defeated him for President. Could time travellers fleeing the Imperial States of America be merely looking for sterility? No, I can only picture we had George and wanted him back after some Spider and Snake back-n-forthing. (Although keeping a guy from getting shot on a battlefield takes some doing.)
--
-Jack
Ahasuerus
2019-06-11 01:06:53 UTC
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On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 8:05:02 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
[snip]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
However, if you're postulating a universe in which Washington
founded a dynasty, I have to point out that geneticists have
concluded (from his appearance, something about the eyelids)
that he was an XXY male and as sterile as boiling water. Martha
Washington had had several children by her first husband, Mr.
Custis, none by George.
XXY or Klinefelter's syndrome is one of many possible causes of
Washington's infertility that have been discussed over the years.
Here is what John K. Amory wrote about it in 2004:

"Klinefelter's syndrome is typified by tall stature, testicular
failure, and mild to severe cognitive deficits, especially in terms
of visualospatial and language abilities. Klinefelter's syndrome
could explain Washington's remarkable height. Washington was
extremely tall — probably more than 6 feet 3 inches — a veritable
giant for his age; however, tall stature was a family trait. A
diagnosis of Klinefelter's syndrome would also provide an explanation
for his well-documented dental woes, because many individuals with
Klinefelter's syndrome suffer from taurodontism, a genetic
enlargement of the tooth pulp, which predisposes to premature dental
caries.

Arguing against Klinefelter's syndrome are contemporary descriptions
of Washington as powerfully muscled and as a superb horseman,
certainly not consistent with hypogonadism and visuospatial
dysfunction. In addition, Washington's speeches and surviving
writings demonstrate a superior facility with language, making
Klinefelter's syndrome seem very unlikely.
(https://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(03)03058-9/fulltext)
Joe Pfeiffer
2019-06-10 22:29:47 UTC
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Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
The guy who suggested John Frederick Parker, the policeman who was
guarding the door to Lincoln's box at Ford's theatre, go drinking with
Lincoln's footman and coachman, instead of staying at his post.
Moriarty
2019-06-10 22:58:58 UTC
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Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
Franz Ferdinand's driver drove past the exact spot where Gavrilo Princip was and then STOPPED! Clearly the driver was a time agent intent on starting WW1.

-Moriarty
Ahasuerus
2019-06-11 01:45:02 UTC
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Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
I have often wondered about Tsuda Sanzō, the policeman who tried to
assassinate the Russian crown prince (the future Nicholas II) when
the latter visited Japan in 1891.

To the best of my knowledge, Tsuda had had a clean record during his
military career and had no reason to attack Nicholas whom he was
supposed to be protecting. The reasons that he gave during his trial
-- that the crown prince's visit was a Russian plot against Japan
etc -- were bizarre.

On the other hand, if Tsuda was a time traveler from the future, it
may make sense. The assassination attempt was botched even though
Tsuda was very well trained and experienced: Nicholas was wounded,
but the wound was not life-threatening. Still, he cut his visit short
and left the country. Years later, when he was emperor and Russia's
relationship with Japan deteriorated, Nicholas's opinion of Japan was
an important factor during the maneuvering that preceded the
Russo-Japanese war. If Tsuda's plan was to make a future war more
likely and put the whole sequence of events that ultimately led to
the Communist takeover in 1917 into motion, it may have been a great
success. Kind of makes you wonder what kind of future he was trying
to prevent...
Thomas Koenig
2019-06-11 17:26:47 UTC
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Post by Ahasuerus
If Tsuda's plan was to make a future war more
likely and put the whole sequence of events that ultimately led to
the Communist takeover in 1917 into motion,
... and what followed.
Post by Ahasuerus
it may have been a great
success. Kind of makes you wonder what kind of future he was trying
to prevent...
Possibly the future where we didn't see the Dinosaur Killer of
2053 in time to nudge it away from Earth?

Apart from that, it is hard to imagine (from today's perspective)
that a future time traveller would not try to stop the World Wars
and the atrocities of the Big Three.
Scott Lurndal
2019-06-11 18:45:33 UTC
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Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by Ahasuerus
If Tsuda's plan was to make a future war more
likely and put the whole sequence of events that ultimately led to
the Communist takeover in 1917 into motion,
... and what followed.
Post by Ahasuerus
it may have been a great
success. Kind of makes you wonder what kind of future he was trying
to prevent...
Possibly the future where we didn't see the Dinosaur Killer of
2053 in time to nudge it away from Earth?
Apart from that, it is hard to imagine (from today's perspective)
that a future time traveller would not try to stop the World Wars
and the atrocities of the Big Three.
And potentially make things worse? I think a future time traveller
would be quite careful to not perturb the timeline; unless the multiverse
theory holds, in which case the time traveller would simply branch a
new timeline (while the original continues along its inevitable trajectory..).
Ahasuerus
2019-06-11 19:10:40 UTC
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Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by Ahasuerus
If Tsuda's plan was to make a future war more
likely and put the whole sequence of events that ultimately led to
the Communist takeover in 1917 into motion,
... and what followed.
Post by Ahasuerus
it may have been a great
success. Kind of makes you wonder what kind of future he was trying
to prevent...
Possibly the future where we didn't see the Dinosaur Killer of
2053 in time to nudge it away from Earth?
Apart from that, it is hard to imagine (from today's perspective)
that a future time traveller would not try to stop the World Wars
and the atrocities of the Big Three.
It's hard to tell without knowing what the alternatives were. Perhaps
Tsuda was thinking "I can't imagine anything that could be worse than
what actually happened during *our* 20th century!"

Another thought: what if Tsuda messed up (easy to do if you are in an
unfamiliar body)? What if the plan was to get rid of Nicholas, a
notoriously under-qualified emperor, and hope that his replacement
would be more competent?
Lynn McGuire
2019-06-11 20:10:01 UTC
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Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by Ahasuerus
If Tsuda's plan was to make a future war more
likely and put the whole sequence of events that ultimately led to
the Communist takeover in 1917 into motion,
... and what followed.
Post by Ahasuerus
it may have been a great
success. Kind of makes you wonder what kind of future he was trying
to prevent...
Possibly the future where we didn't see the Dinosaur Killer of
2053 in time to nudge it away from Earth?
...

There is an excellent Netflix tv show, Travelers, about that:
https://www.netflix.com/title/80105699

Highly recommended.

Lynn
Dimensional Traveler
2019-06-11 21:12:19 UTC
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Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by Ahasuerus
If Tsuda's plan was to make a future war more
likely and put the whole sequence of events that ultimately led to
the Communist takeover in 1917 into motion,
... and what followed.
Post by Ahasuerus
it may have been a great
success. Kind of makes you wonder what kind of future he was trying
to prevent...
Possibly the future where we didn't see the Dinosaur Killer of
2053 in time to nudge it away from Earth?
Apart from that, it is hard to imagine (from today's perspective)
that a future time traveller would not try to stop the World Wars
and the atrocities of the Big Three.
Because without the rapid advancements in technology spurred by the
world wars time travel wouldn't have been invented!

https://www.tor.com/2011/08/31/wikihistory/
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Mike Van Pelt
2019-06-11 21:44:43 UTC
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
Because without the rapid advancements in technology spurred by the
world wars time travel wouldn't have been invented!
Time travel won't be invented.

When it's been invented on various timelines, some idiots keep
going back in time and changing the past. They keep doing this
until they've produced a timeline in which time travel is never
invented. Therefore, the only timeline that remains intact is
the one in which time travel is never invented.

(Props to Larry Niven for realizing this.)
--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston
Titus G
2019-06-12 05:39:07 UTC
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Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Because without the rapid advancements in technology spurred by the
world wars time travel wouldn't have been invented!
Time travel won't be invented.
Because there is no such thing as time nor motion. Like a film, life is
a series of still pictures, not a video that can be rewound and edited.
(Props to Selby referenced in Frann O'Brien's The Third Policeman.)
Post by Mike Van Pelt
When it's been invented on various timelines, some idiots keep
going back in time and changing the past. They keep doing this
until they've produced a timeline in which time travel is never
invented. Therefore, the only timeline that remains intact is
the one in which time travel is never invented.
It might appear to be so from our joint experience but if our creator is
getting things wrong, this world may have just been created with fake
history such as dinosaur bones gnawed on by human teeth. And tomorrow
there may be a new version.
Post by Mike Van Pelt
(Props to Larry Niven for realizing this.)
I think he made it up. How many idiots? In reality, some more idiots
would keep going back and changing the past until they produced a
timeline in which the original group of idiots were never created.
That is why there are all these free electrical outlets appearing in
carparks when the real purpose is to provide emergency charging for
smaller-batteried personal time machines from the 3570s when everyone
has one, even the Burmese Loonies, the North Korean Martians, the Iraqi
Jupes and Palestinian Saturninians. Jeez. Even the Russian Assholes must
have them as well.
D B Davis
2019-06-11 20:22:56 UTC
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Post by Ahasuerus
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
I have often wondered about Tsuda Sanzō, the policeman who tried to
assassinate the Russian crown prince (the future Nicholas II) when
the latter visited Japan in 1891.
To the best of my knowledge, Tsuda had had a clean record during his
military career and had no reason to attack Nicholas whom he was
supposed to be protecting. The reasons that he gave during his trial
-- that the crown prince's visit was a Russian plot against Japan
etc -- were bizarre.
On the other hand, if Tsuda was a time traveler from the future, it
may make sense. The assassination attempt was botched even though
Tsuda was very well trained and experienced: Nicholas was wounded,
but the wound was not life-threatening. Still, he cut his visit short
and left the country. Years later, when he was emperor and Russia's
relationship with Japan deteriorated, Nicholas's opinion of Japan was
an important factor during the maneuvering that preceded the
Russo-Japanese war. If Tsuda's plan was to make a future war more
likely and put the whole sequence of events that ultimately led to
the Communist takeover in 1917 into motion, it may have been a great
success. Kind of makes you wonder what kind of future he was trying
to prevent...
Boy King Tutankhamun reigned from the age of 9 until he died at the age
of 19. His grandfather-in-law Ay advised Tut and later became Pharaoh
for a few years after Tut passed.
Tut and Ay together restored Amun monotheism to prominence, which
diminished the secular Aten quasi-monotheism that Tut's father
introduced. After Ay passed, Horemheb, the commander-in-chief of the
army, usurped the throne. Horemheb removed Amun monotheism and restored
secular Aten quasi-monotheism. Horemheb also instigated a campaign to
send Tut, Ay, and their ideas down the old Orwellian memory hole before
it had a name.
King Tut walked with a cane due to leg injuries that included a
congenital clubfoot. He also contracted multiple malaria infections from
several strains of the oldest known parasites. His malaria aggravated
his poor health and kept his left leg from properly healing, which
contributed to his death.
It's plausible that a traveler took modern malarial parasites back
in time to quietly assassinate Tut under non-suspicious circumstances.
This in turn prevented the rise of Egyptian monotheism and as a result,
although Egypt hosted the chosen, Egyptians did not become chosen.

ObSF:

_Sphinx_ (Cook) review:
http://crcomp.net/review/sphinx/index.php



Thank you,
--
Don
m***@sky.com
2019-06-11 04:30:01 UTC
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Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
At some point after the fall of the Berlin Wall, when the great cold war opponent that Blish, Clarke, and Pournelle thought would last into future history just sort of curled up and died, I remember reading an article jokingly claiming that all of these good news stories couldn't be business as usual - it had to be alien influence behind the scenes.
nuny@bid.nes
2019-06-12 07:14:45 UTC
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Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
At some point after the fall of the Berlin Wall, when the great cold war
opponent that Blish, Clarke, and Pournelle thought would last into future
history just sort of curled up and died, I remember reading an article
jokingly claiming that all of these good news stories couldn't be business
as usual - it had to be alien influence behind the scenes.
Don't forget Laumer's war between "East" and West. No Bolos in our timeline.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?


Mark L. Fergerson
Dimensional Traveler
2019-06-12 15:05:24 UTC
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Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
At some point after the fall of the Berlin Wall, when the great cold war
opponent that Blish, Clarke, and Pournelle thought would last into future
history just sort of curled up and died, I remember reading an article
jokingly claiming that all of these good news stories couldn't be business
as usual - it had to be alien influence behind the scenes.
Don't forget Laumer's war between "East" and West. No Bolos in our timeline.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Too early to say that won't happen.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
J. Clarke
2019-06-13 01:08:22 UTC
Reply
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On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 08:05:24 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
At some point after the fall of the Berlin Wall, when the great cold war
opponent that Blish, Clarke, and Pournelle thought would last into future
history just sort of curled up and died, I remember reading an article
jokingly claiming that all of these good news stories couldn't be business
as usual - it had to be alien influence behind the scenes.
Don't forget Laumer's war between "East" and West. No Bolos in our timeline.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Too early to say that won't happen.
Too early to say that something like them might happen, but in the
Bolo universe the Mark III went into production last year.
nuny@bid.nes
2019-06-13 04:13:59 UTC
Reply
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Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 08:05:24 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
At some point after the fall of the Berlin Wall, when the great cold war
opponent that Blish, Clarke, and Pournelle thought would last into future
history just sort of curled up and died, I remember reading an article
jokingly claiming that all of these good news stories couldn't be business
as usual - it had to be alien influence behind the scenes.
Don't forget Laumer's war between "East" and West. No Bolos in our timeline.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Too early to say that won't happen.
Too early to say that something like them might happen, but in the
Bolo universe the Mark III went into production last year.
There is that, but being off by a mere year is nothing in SFnal "prediction" terms. And also, everybody and their grandmother is hand-wringing about AI in military 'bots...


Mark L. Fergerson
k***@outlook.com
2019-06-13 18:03:41 UTC
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...everybody and their grandmother is hand-wringing about AI in military 'bots...
Mark L. Fergerson
Yay, another opportunity to quote long time top robot scientist whose name I keep forgetting. "I can't imagine anyone giving a weapon to something as massively stupid as a robot", and this was the guy who loved robots the most.

Nils K. Hammer
m***@sky.com
2019-06-13 19:33:01 UTC
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Post by k***@outlook.com
...everybody and their grandmother is hand-wringing about AI in military 'bots...
Mark L. Fergerson
Yay, another opportunity to quote long time top robot scientist whose name I keep forgetting. "I can't imagine anyone giving a weapon to something as massively stupid as a robot", and this was the guy who loved robots the most.
Nils K. Hammer
To predict the rise of killer robots, keep an eye on self-driving cars. In both cases, there is a risk of getting people killed (the wrong people in the case of the killer robots) so standard procedure should be to write a safety case, which conclusively proves that there is no practical risk of killing people. For an AI system with non-trivial vision recognition I think that's decades away, but if the self-driving car people find a way to do this or re-interpret the rules to get away without doing it, the application to killer robots will be obvious. Without such a drastic change, the military will always have to have at least the excuse of claiming there is a soldier in the loop who ordered the killing.

One recent article I read proclaimed the great advantage of an architecture for software on a fighter plane which specifically split the computer system into a safety-critical part and a part that could be written to normal commercial best practice. Finding a way to run stuff on the commercial side not only made it an order of magnitude cheaper to write, it meant that it could be deployed years earlier - so even if you know how to write a killer robot, you could be deploying a system that a soldier-in-the-loop system wipes the floor with, because they can deploy kit that is a generation in advance of the stuff that you have spent a decade proving won't kill the wrong people.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-06-13 20:16:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@bid.nes
...everybody and their grandmother is hand-wringing about AI in
military 'bots...
Mark L. Fergerson
Yay, another opportunity to quote long time top robot scientist whose
name I keep forgetting. "I can't imagine anyone giving a weapon to
something as massively stupid as a robot", and this was the guy who
loved robots the most.
Well, he had something there.

Rescue robots, though, may have a future.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2019-06-13 23:06:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@bid.nes
...everybody and their grandmother is hand-wringing about AI in
military 'bots...
Mark L. Fergerson
Yay, another opportunity to quote long time top robot scientist whose
name I keep forgetting. "I can't imagine anyone giving a weapon to
something as massively stupid as a robot", and this was the guy who
loved robots the most.
Well, he had something there.
Rescue robots, though, may have a future.
Should I call Old Glory Insurance?

https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/old-glory-insurance/n10766

:)

--
Kevin R
a.a #2310
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-06-13 23:47:14 UTC
Reply
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Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@bid.nes
...everybody and their grandmother is hand-wringing about AI in
military 'bots...
Mark L. Fergerson
Yay, another opportunity to quote long time top robot scientist whose
name I keep forgetting. "I can't imagine anyone giving a weapon to
something as massively stupid as a robot", and this was the guy who
loved robots the most.
Well, he had something there.
Rescue robots, though, may have a future.
Should I call Old Glory Insurance?
https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/old-glory-insurance/n10766
:)
Boston Dynamics would be a better idea.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-06-13 23:22:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@bid.nes
...everybody and their grandmother is hand-wringing about AI in
military 'bots...
Mark L. Fergerson
Yay, another opportunity to quote long time top robot scientist whose
name I keep forgetting. "I can't imagine anyone giving a weapon to
something as massively stupid as a robot", and this was the guy who
loved robots the most.
Well, he had something there.
Rescue robots, though, may have a future.
"Lassie's Rescue Robots!"
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Moriarty
2019-06-13 23:35:29 UTC
Reply
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@bid.nes
...everybody and their grandmother is hand-wringing about AI in
military 'bots...
Mark L. Fergerson
Yay, another opportunity to quote long time top robot scientist whose
name I keep forgetting. "I can't imagine anyone giving a weapon to
something as massively stupid as a robot", and this was the guy who
loved robots the most.
Well, he had something there.
Rescue robots, though, may have a future.
"Lassie's Rescue Robots!"
"What's that Lassie? Timmy's fallen down a black hole?"

-Moriarty
J. Clarke
2019-06-13 22:27:19 UTC
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Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 08:05:24 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
At some point after the fall of the Berlin Wall, when the great cold war
opponent that Blish, Clarke, and Pournelle thought would last into future
history just sort of curled up and died, I remember reading an article
jokingly claiming that all of these good news stories couldn't be business
as usual - it had to be alien influence behind the scenes.
Don't forget Laumer's war between "East" and West. No Bolos in our timeline.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Too early to say that won't happen.
Too early to say that something like them might happen, but in the
Bolo universe the Mark III went into production last year.
There is that, but being off by a mere year is nothing in SFnal "prediction" terms. And also, everybody and their grandmother is hand-wringing about AI in military 'bots...
Uh, "the Mark III" implies a Mark II and a Mark I, and neither of
those exist either.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2019-06-13 22:43:16 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
On Wednesday, June 12, 2019 at 6:08:23 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 08:05:24 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 9:30:04 PM UTC-7,
On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 9:57:34 PM UTC+1, Thomas
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing
important events in the past. So, looking back at our
history / timeline, where were they? Are there periods
or events in our history which are unlikely enough so
time travellers at least appear to be plausible?
At some point after the fall of the Berlin Wall, when the
great cold war opponent that Blish, Clarke, and Pournelle
thought would last into future history just sort of curled
up and died, I remember reading an article jokingly
claiming that all of these good news stories couldn't be
business as usual - it had to be alien influence behind
the scenes.
Don't forget Laumer's war between "East" and West. No
Bolos in our timeline.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Too early to say that won't happen.
Too early to say that something like them might happen, but in
the Bolo universe the Mark III went into production last year.
There is that, but being off by a mere year is nothing in
SFnal "prediction" terms. And also, everybody and their
grandmother is hand-wringing about AI in military 'bots...
Uh, "the Mark III" implies a Mark II and a Mark I, and neither
of those exist either.
That we know of.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Lynn McGuire
2019-06-13 23:41:37 UTC
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Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 08:05:24 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
At some point after the fall of the Berlin Wall, when the great cold war
opponent that Blish, Clarke, and Pournelle thought would last into future
history just sort of curled up and died, I remember reading an article
jokingly claiming that all of these good news stories couldn't be business
as usual - it had to be alien influence behind the scenes.
Don't forget Laumer's war between "East" and West. No Bolos in our timeline.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Too early to say that won't happen.
Too early to say that something like them might happen, but in the
Bolo universe the Mark III went into production last year.
There is that, but being off by a mere year is nothing in SFnal "prediction" terms. And also, everybody and their grandmother is hand-wringing about AI in military 'bots...
Mark L. Fergerson
The Bolos did not get true AI until the Mark X.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolo_universe#Artificial_intelligence

Lynn
Lynn McGuire
2019-06-11 22:12:07 UTC
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Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
There is an excellent Netflix tv show, Travelers, about why time travel
is very problematic.
https://www.netflix.com/title/80105699

Highly recommended.

Lynn
nuny@bid.nes
2019-06-12 07:24:47 UTC
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Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
If psychologists ever got hold of time travel and alternate timelines are a thing, they could easily be testing out their theories on timelines that don't lead to their own, running experiments that are now deemed unethical. They could say something like "these people aren't real so any pain they seem to be feeling is an illusion" or similar. It's not as if Idealists have never done anything like that before...

Anyway, imagine two psychs arguing...

"I bet I can get them to go to war over one assassination, say this minor Prince here."

"No, you can't- that's silly."

"How much cash you got on you?"

---

Somewhat later:

"I bet I can get Trump elected President."

"That's utterly ridiculous."

"How much cash you got on you?"


Mark L. Fergerson
a425couple
2019-06-12 15:03:45 UTC
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Permalink
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
If psychologists ever got hold of time travel and alternate timelines are a thing, they could easily be testing out their theories on timelines that don't lead to their own, running experiments that are now deemed unethical. They could say something like "these people aren't real so any pain they seem to be feeling is an illusion" or similar. It's not as if Idealists have never done anything like that before...
Anyway, imagine two psychs arguing...
"I bet I can get them to go to war over one assassination, say this minor Prince here."
"No, you can't- that's silly."
"How much cash you got on you?"
---
"I bet I can get Trump elected President."
"That's utterly ridiculous."
"How much cash you got on you?"
Mark L. Fergerson
Good one!
Gene Wirchenko
2019-06-12 20:09:31 UTC
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On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 08:03:45 -0700, a425couple
Post by a425couple
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
If psychologists ever got hold of time travel and alternate timelines are a thing, they could easily be testing out their theories on timelines that don't lead to their own, running experiments that are now deemed unethical. They could say something like "these people aren't real so any pain they seem to be feeling is an illusion" or similar. It's not as if Idealists have never done anything like that before...
Anyway, imagine two psychs arguing...
"I bet I can get them to go to war over one assassination, say this minor Prince here."
"No, you can't- that's silly."
"How much cash you got on you?"
---
"I bet I can get Trump elected President."
"That's utterly ridiculous."
"How much cash you got on you?"
Mark L. Fergerson
Good one!
Asimov wrote a short
S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E
"Spell My Name With an S" predicated on a minor change having a huge
effect.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Robert Carnegie
2019-06-12 20:08:20 UTC
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Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
If psychologists ever got hold of time travel and alternate timelines are a thing, they could easily be testing out their theories on timelines that don't lead to their own, running experiments that are now deemed unethical. They could say something like "these people aren't real so any pain they seem to be feeling is an illusion" or similar. It's not as if Idealists have never done anything like that before...
Anyway, imagine two psychs arguing...
"I bet I can get them to go to war over one assassination, say this minor Prince here."
"No, you can't- that's silly."
"How much cash you got on you?"
---
"I bet I can get Trump elected President."
"That's utterly ridiculous."
"How much cash you got on you?"
Mark L. Fergerson
Asimov's story <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Sol>
comes to mind; are we in it now?
David DeLaney
2019-06-25 04:36:10 UTC
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Post by ***@bid.nes
Anyway, imagine two psychs arguing...
"I bet I can get them to go to war over one assassination, say this minor Prince here."
"No, you can't- that's silly."
"How much cash you got on you?"
---
"I bet I can get Trump elected President."
"That's utterly ridiculous."
"How much cash you got on you?"
Zelazny, _Frost and Fire_, I think.

Dave, I'm also remembering one of a similar concept titled "Blood and Dust",
but it doesn't seem to exist
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
k***@outlook.com
2019-06-25 05:25:46 UTC
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Okay, since folks valued the quote, the guy was Hans Moravec. I think he came up with the idea of "bush robots" which are scalable groups of small bots holding hands and linking computational power in whatever size working group is needed to get a job done.

Nils K. Hammer

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