Discussion:
Where, when and who were the time travellers?
(too old to reply)
Thomas Koenig
2019-06-10 20:57:31 UTC
Permalink
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
Jack Bohn
2019-06-10 22:20:59 UTC
Permalink
There was an earlier war when George Washington was *not* shot. Was there a Founding Father eho could have had a presidency that set the same pattern for the new nation? Not least, not having a dynasty to ensure, so stepping down after a while in favor of... of whoever was chosen to replace him. Still, if we didn't have him, I don't know how far the time travellers would cast their net for him, if they would've found a "good enough" selection elsrwhen.
--
-Jack
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-06-10 23:51:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Bohn
There was an earlier war when George Washington was *not* shot. Was
there a Founding Father who could have had a presidency that set the
same pattern for the new nation? Not least, not having a dynasty to
ensure, so stepping down after a while in favor of... of whoever was
chosen to replace him. Still, if we didn't have him, I don't know how
far the time travellers would cast their net for him, if they would've
found a "good enough" selection elsrwhen.
Reminiscent of "If Lee Had Not Won at Gettysburg," by none other
than Winston Churchill.

However, if you're postulating a universe in which Washington
founded a dynasty, I have to point out that geneticists have
concluded (from his appearance, something about the eyelids)
that he was an XXY male and as sterile as boiling water. Martha
Washington had had several children by her first husband, Mr.
Custis, none by George.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jack Bohn
2019-06-11 00:52:22 UTC
Permalink
There was an earlier war when George Washington was *not* shot.  Was 
there a Founding Father who could have had a presidency that set the 
same pattern for the new nation?  Not least, not having a dynasty to 
ensure, so stepping down after a while in favor of... of whoever was 
chosen to replace him.  Still, if we didn't have him, I don't know how 
far the time travellers would cast their net for him, if they would've 
found a "good enough" selection elsrwhen. 
Reminiscent of "If Lee Had Not Won at Gettysburg," by none other 
than Winston Churchill. 

However, if you're postulating a universe in which Washington 
founded a dynasty, I have to point out that geneticists have 
concluded (from his appearance, something about the eyelids) 
that he was an XXY male and as sterile as boiling water. 
Jack Bohn
2019-06-11 01:02:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Jack Bohn
George Washington
However, if you're postulating a universe in which Washington 
founded a dynasty, I have to point out that geneticists have 
concluded (from his appearance, something about the eyelids) 
that he was an XXY male and as sterile as boiling water. 
No, I'm suggesting a dynasty from the general the Continental Army had to get instead, or the guy who defeated him for President. Could time travellers fleeing the Imperial States of America be merely looking for sterility? No, I can only picture we had George and wanted him back after some Spider and Snake back-n-forthing. (Although keeping a guy from getting shot on a battlefield takes some doing.)
--
-Jack
Ahasuerus
2019-06-11 01:06:53 UTC
Permalink
On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 8:05:02 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
[snip]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
However, if you're postulating a universe in which Washington
founded a dynasty, I have to point out that geneticists have
concluded (from his appearance, something about the eyelids)
that he was an XXY male and as sterile as boiling water. Martha
Washington had had several children by her first husband, Mr.
Custis, none by George.
XXY or Klinefelter's syndrome is one of many possible causes of
Washington's infertility that have been discussed over the years.
Here is what John K. Amory wrote about it in 2004:

"Klinefelter's syndrome is typified by tall stature, testicular
failure, and mild to severe cognitive deficits, especially in terms
of visualospatial and language abilities. Klinefelter's syndrome
could explain Washington's remarkable height. Washington was
extremely tall — probably more than 6 feet 3 inches — a veritable
giant for his age; however, tall stature was a family trait. A
diagnosis of Klinefelter's syndrome would also provide an explanation
for his well-documented dental woes, because many individuals with
Klinefelter's syndrome suffer from taurodontism, a genetic
enlargement of the tooth pulp, which predisposes to premature dental
caries.

Arguing against Klinefelter's syndrome are contemporary descriptions
of Washington as powerfully muscled and as a superb horseman,
certainly not consistent with hypogonadism and visuospatial
dysfunction. In addition, Washington's speeches and surviving
writings demonstrate a superior facility with language, making
Klinefelter's syndrome seem very unlikely.
(https://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(03)03058-9/fulltext)
Joe Pfeiffer
2019-06-10 22:29:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
The guy who suggested John Frederick Parker, the policeman who was
guarding the door to Lincoln's box at Ford's theatre, go drinking with
Lincoln's footman and coachman, instead of staying at his post.
Moriarty
2019-06-10 22:58:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
Franz Ferdinand's driver drove past the exact spot where Gavrilo Princip was and then STOPPED! Clearly the driver was a time agent intent on starting WW1.

-Moriarty
Ahasuerus
2019-06-11 01:45:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
I have often wondered about Tsuda Sanzō, the policeman who tried to
assassinate the Russian crown prince (the future Nicholas II) when
the latter visited Japan in 1891.

To the best of my knowledge, Tsuda had had a clean record during his
military career and had no reason to attack Nicholas whom he was
supposed to be protecting. The reasons that he gave during his trial
-- that the crown prince's visit was a Russian plot against Japan
etc -- were bizarre.

On the other hand, if Tsuda was a time traveler from the future, it
may make sense. The assassination attempt was botched even though
Tsuda was very well trained and experienced: Nicholas was wounded,
but the wound was not life-threatening. Still, he cut his visit short
and left the country. Years later, when he was emperor and Russia's
relationship with Japan deteriorated, Nicholas's opinion of Japan was
an important factor during the maneuvering that preceded the
Russo-Japanese war. If Tsuda's plan was to make a future war more
likely and put the whole sequence of events that ultimately led to
the Communist takeover in 1917 into motion, it may have been a great
success. Kind of makes you wonder what kind of future he was trying
to prevent...
Thomas Koenig
2019-06-11 17:26:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ahasuerus
If Tsuda's plan was to make a future war more
likely and put the whole sequence of events that ultimately led to
the Communist takeover in 1917 into motion,
... and what followed.
Post by Ahasuerus
it may have been a great
success. Kind of makes you wonder what kind of future he was trying
to prevent...
Possibly the future where we didn't see the Dinosaur Killer of
2053 in time to nudge it away from Earth?

Apart from that, it is hard to imagine (from today's perspective)
that a future time traveller would not try to stop the World Wars
and the atrocities of the Big Three.
Scott Lurndal
2019-06-11 18:45:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by Ahasuerus
If Tsuda's plan was to make a future war more
likely and put the whole sequence of events that ultimately led to
the Communist takeover in 1917 into motion,
... and what followed.
Post by Ahasuerus
it may have been a great
success. Kind of makes you wonder what kind of future he was trying
to prevent...
Possibly the future where we didn't see the Dinosaur Killer of
2053 in time to nudge it away from Earth?
Apart from that, it is hard to imagine (from today's perspective)
that a future time traveller would not try to stop the World Wars
and the atrocities of the Big Three.
And potentially make things worse? I think a future time traveller
would be quite careful to not perturb the timeline; unless the multiverse
theory holds, in which case the time traveller would simply branch a
new timeline (while the original continues along its inevitable trajectory..).
Ahasuerus
2019-06-11 19:10:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by Ahasuerus
If Tsuda's plan was to make a future war more
likely and put the whole sequence of events that ultimately led to
the Communist takeover in 1917 into motion,
... and what followed.
Post by Ahasuerus
it may have been a great
success. Kind of makes you wonder what kind of future he was trying
to prevent...
Possibly the future where we didn't see the Dinosaur Killer of
2053 in time to nudge it away from Earth?
Apart from that, it is hard to imagine (from today's perspective)
that a future time traveller would not try to stop the World Wars
and the atrocities of the Big Three.
It's hard to tell without knowing what the alternatives were. Perhaps
Tsuda was thinking "I can't imagine anything that could be worse than
what actually happened during *our* 20th century!"

Another thought: what if Tsuda messed up (easy to do if you are in an
unfamiliar body)? What if the plan was to get rid of Nicholas, a
notoriously under-qualified emperor, and hope that his replacement
would be more competent?
Lynn McGuire
2019-06-11 20:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by Ahasuerus
If Tsuda's plan was to make a future war more
likely and put the whole sequence of events that ultimately led to
the Communist takeover in 1917 into motion,
... and what followed.
Post by Ahasuerus
it may have been a great
success. Kind of makes you wonder what kind of future he was trying
to prevent...
Possibly the future where we didn't see the Dinosaur Killer of
2053 in time to nudge it away from Earth?
...

There is an excellent Netflix tv show, Travelers, about that:
https://www.netflix.com/title/80105699

Highly recommended.

Lynn
Dimensional Traveler
2019-06-11 21:12:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by Ahasuerus
If Tsuda's plan was to make a future war more
likely and put the whole sequence of events that ultimately led to
the Communist takeover in 1917 into motion,
... and what followed.
Post by Ahasuerus
it may have been a great
success. Kind of makes you wonder what kind of future he was trying
to prevent...
Possibly the future where we didn't see the Dinosaur Killer of
2053 in time to nudge it away from Earth?
Apart from that, it is hard to imagine (from today's perspective)
that a future time traveller would not try to stop the World Wars
and the atrocities of the Big Three.
Because without the rapid advancements in technology spurred by the
world wars time travel wouldn't have been invented!

https://www.tor.com/2011/08/31/wikihistory/
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Mike Van Pelt
2019-06-11 21:44:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Because without the rapid advancements in technology spurred by the
world wars time travel wouldn't have been invented!
Time travel won't be invented.

When it's been invented on various timelines, some idiots keep
going back in time and changing the past. They keep doing this
until they've produced a timeline in which time travel is never
invented. Therefore, the only timeline that remains intact is
the one in which time travel is never invented.

(Props to Larry Niven for realizing this.)
--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston
Titus G
2019-06-12 05:39:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Because without the rapid advancements in technology spurred by the
world wars time travel wouldn't have been invented!
Time travel won't be invented.
Because there is no such thing as time nor motion. Like a film, life is
a series of still pictures, not a video that can be rewound and edited.
(Props to Selby referenced in Frann O'Brien's The Third Policeman.)
Post by Mike Van Pelt
When it's been invented on various timelines, some idiots keep
going back in time and changing the past. They keep doing this
until they've produced a timeline in which time travel is never
invented. Therefore, the only timeline that remains intact is
the one in which time travel is never invented.
It might appear to be so from our joint experience but if our creator is
getting things wrong, this world may have just been created with fake
history such as dinosaur bones gnawed on by human teeth. And tomorrow
there may be a new version.
Post by Mike Van Pelt
(Props to Larry Niven for realizing this.)
I think he made it up. How many idiots? In reality, some more idiots
would keep going back and changing the past until they produced a
timeline in which the original group of idiots were never created.
That is why there are all these free electrical outlets appearing in
carparks when the real purpose is to provide emergency charging for
smaller-batteried personal time machines from the 3570s when everyone
has one, even the Burmese Loonies, the North Korean Martians, the Iraqi
Jupes and Palestinian Saturninians. Jeez. Even the Russian Assholes must
have them as well.
Quadibloc
2019-06-27 17:53:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Time travel won't be invented.
Because there is no such thing as time nor motion. Like a film, life is
a series of still pictures, not a video that can be rewound and edited.
(Props to Selby referenced in Frann O'Brien's The Third Policeman.)
On thinking about this, I realized... that while that _seems_ to
be a possible reason for no time travel, it actually gets it
backwards.

It's precisely _because_ time and motion exist that the idea of
going back in time is impossible; to travel to the past, one has
to change time into space so that one can, in a certain amount
of time, move from the place called "now" to the place
corresponding to the past moment you wish to visit.

Of course, that may just explain how a time machine would have
to work rather than making it impossible.

Essentially, the notion of time travel assumes that the
direction of time is just like the other directions of space
(relativity, which does make it a direction, still makes it
special by involving the square root of minus one)...

and so the time traveller has to take his personal direction of
subjective time, and have it now cease to point down the time
axis of our fourth-dimensional universe, but instead have it
point in a fifth direction, perpendicular to all the others.

But in that case, his subjective passage of time ought to carry
him away from our four-dimensional universe, rather than
allowing him to get into the past. Of course, if he can turn 180
degrees in that fifth dimension halfway through his journey, it
would work out... and then he points himself forwards in time
again to fit in.

My point is that time travel is impossible whether time is like
space, or it is like time. Time travel requires it to be
possible to have time be both like time and like space,
whichever one you choose during part of your journey.

John Savard
David DeLaney
2019-06-30 02:48:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
It's precisely _because_ time and motion exist that the idea of
going back in time is impossible; to travel to the past, one has
to change time into space so that one can, in a certain amount
of time, move from the place called "now" to the place
corresponding to the past moment you wish to visit.
Dude, the latter is EASY. You do it every time you slow down.

No, the impossible part is getting a motion vector that WAS pointing into the
future lighg-cone to point into the past light-cone instead. Even WITH ftl it
can't be done, the transforms smack up against the light-cone walls. And
without ftl, you can't even get out of the future light-cone.
Post by Quadibloc
Essentially, the notion of time travel assumes that the
direction of time is just like the other directions of space
(relativity, which does make it a direction, still makes it
special by involving the square root of minus one)...
It's manifestly not the same; its metric sign is the negative of space's.
You can rotate spatial dirctions into each other with ordinary rotation
matrices, using regular trig functions; to inter-rotate time and space,
you need the full Lorentz transform, using hyperbolic trig functions.

(We have only one time axis, so the only possible "rotation" of time axes
into each other would be reflecting it, which isn't continuous at all.)
Post by Quadibloc
But in that case, his subjective passage of time ought to carry
him away from our four-dimensional universe, rather than
allowing him to get into the past. Of course, if he can turn 180
degrees in that fifth dimension halfway through his journey, it
would work out... and then he points himself forwards in time
again to fit in.
ObSF (no really): Greg Egan, _The Clockwork Rocket_/_The Eternal Flame_. Life
and space exploration and existential dangers in a setting where relativity
decidedly does NOT work the same way as ours.
Post by Quadibloc
My point is that time travel is impossible whether time is like
space, or it is like time. Time travel requires it to be
possible to have time be both like time and like space,
whichever one you choose during part of your journey.
... but time IS like both time and space. It's just always pointed along time,
is all.

Dave, really, you ought to know by now that trying to do philosophy about
spacetime fails utterly unless you show the math involved
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Quadibloc
2019-06-30 03:27:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Quadibloc
It's precisely _because_ time and motion exist that the idea of
going back in time is impossible; to travel to the past, one has
to change time into space so that one can, in a certain amount
of time, move from the place called "now" to the place
corresponding to the past moment you wish to visit.
Dude, the latter is EASY. You do it every time you slow down.
I wasn't talking about relativity here. Special Relativity, of course, in its
own way, suggests that time travel is not possible - or assumes that time travel
is not possible, and concludes from that that faster-than-light travel is
impossible as well.

Instead, I was looking at this from a purely classical point of view.

This is because I was responding to a post that said that time travel was
impossible... because time and motion are illusions, all history is static
within a four-dimensional object.

The trouble is, life and consciousness would also be impossible if that were the
case. If those are real, time and motion must be real.

And if time and motion are real, then the direction in which time and motion
takes place is utterly unlike the directions of space. And "time travel" is
premised on them all being the same - if one has the right key.

Now, relativity does mix them up... sort of... but that square root of minus one
thingy keeps them from getting mixed up in ways that cause problems. The
difference between the two still exists, it's just subtler and more complicated.

John Savard
David DeLaney
2019-06-30 07:02:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
This is because I was responding to a post that said that time travel was
impossible... because time and motion are illusions, all history is static
within a four-dimensional object.
Yes, sure, that's fine. Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so. See also
"timeless physics".
Post by Quadibloc
The trouble is, life and consciousness would also be impossible if that were
the case. If those are real, time and motion must be real.
... okay, so why are you assuming life and consciousness are real? Either
together or separately?

Dave, we can demonstrate that you have no life, and we have severe doubts
about your state of consciousness, so you can't use yourself as an example.
And I'd like to see you try to prove _I'm_ not a hallucination you're having
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
J. Clarke
2019-06-30 13:45:56 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 29 Jun 2019 20:27:46 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Quadibloc
It's precisely _because_ time and motion exist that the idea of
going back in time is impossible; to travel to the past, one has
to change time into space so that one can, in a certain amount
of time, move from the place called "now" to the place
corresponding to the past moment you wish to visit.
Dude, the latter is EASY. You do it every time you slow down.
I wasn't talking about relativity here. Special Relativity, of course, in its
own way, suggests that time travel is not possible - or assumes that time travel
is not possible, and concludes from that that faster-than-light travel is
impossible as well.
You're incapable of learning, aren't you.

I will quote Kip Thorne on this matter: "The laws of general
relativity by themselves do not enforce chronology protection: it is
easy to find solutions of the Einstein field equations that have
closed timelike curves." Considering that (a) Kip Thorne has a Nobel
Prize in physics and (b) Kip Thorne was one of the authors of
"Gravitation", which was for a long time the standard text on General
Relavity, and that (c) you don't have either, I believe that we are
safer in accepting Kip Thorne's view on this matter than we are in
accepting yours. Perhaps you should accept that as well and move on
instead of trotting out Special Relativity once again every time the
topic comes up.

<http://inspirehep.net/record/366943/files/pdf.pdf>. 21 pages on
relativistic time travel starts on page 295. This is a physics paper
intended for physicists, delivered by the recognized expert on the
topic.

Note that he, the world's expert on such matters, does not even
attempt to cite special relativity as a reason that time travel would
be impossible. If it were that easy then he would have just done it
and gone home.
Post by Quadibloc
Instead, I was looking at this from a purely classical point of view.
Which is meaningless when there is established physics that actually
has something relevant to say on the topic.
Post by Quadibloc
This is because I was responding to a post that said that time travel was
impossible... because time and motion are illusions, all history is static
within a four-dimensional object.
So why did you not appeal to General Relativity which has a great deal
to say about dynamics in four dimensions?
Post by Quadibloc
The trouble is, life and consciousness would also be impossible if that were the
case. If those are real, time and motion must be real.
And if time and motion are real, then the direction in which time and motion
takes place is utterly unlike the directions of space. And "time travel" is
premised on them all being the same - if one has the right key.
Now, relativity does mix them up... sort of... but that square root of minus one
thingy keeps them from getting mixed up in ways that cause problems. The
difference between the two still exists, it's just subtler and more complicated.
John Savard
D B Davis
2019-06-11 20:22:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ahasuerus
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
I have often wondered about Tsuda Sanzō, the policeman who tried to
assassinate the Russian crown prince (the future Nicholas II) when
the latter visited Japan in 1891.
To the best of my knowledge, Tsuda had had a clean record during his
military career and had no reason to attack Nicholas whom he was
supposed to be protecting. The reasons that he gave during his trial
-- that the crown prince's visit was a Russian plot against Japan
etc -- were bizarre.
On the other hand, if Tsuda was a time traveler from the future, it
may make sense. The assassination attempt was botched even though
Tsuda was very well trained and experienced: Nicholas was wounded,
but the wound was not life-threatening. Still, he cut his visit short
and left the country. Years later, when he was emperor and Russia's
relationship with Japan deteriorated, Nicholas's opinion of Japan was
an important factor during the maneuvering that preceded the
Russo-Japanese war. If Tsuda's plan was to make a future war more
likely and put the whole sequence of events that ultimately led to
the Communist takeover in 1917 into motion, it may have been a great
success. Kind of makes you wonder what kind of future he was trying
to prevent...
Boy King Tutankhamun reigned from the age of 9 until he died at the age
of 19. His grandfather-in-law Ay advised Tut and later became Pharaoh
for a few years after Tut passed.
Tut and Ay together restored Amun monotheism to prominence, which
diminished the secular Aten quasi-monotheism that Tut's father
introduced. After Ay passed, Horemheb, the commander-in-chief of the
army, usurped the throne. Horemheb removed Amun monotheism and restored
secular Aten quasi-monotheism. Horemheb also instigated a campaign to
send Tut, Ay, and their ideas down the old Orwellian memory hole before
it had a name.
King Tut walked with a cane due to leg injuries that included a
congenital clubfoot. He also contracted multiple malaria infections from
several strains of the oldest known parasites. His malaria aggravated
his poor health and kept his left leg from properly healing, which
contributed to his death.
It's plausible that a traveler took modern malarial parasites back
in time to quietly assassinate Tut under non-suspicious circumstances.
This in turn prevented the rise of Egyptian monotheism and as a result,
although Egypt hosted the chosen, Egyptians did not become chosen.

ObSF:

_Sphinx_ (Cook) review:
http://crcomp.net/review/sphinx/index.php



Thank you,
--
Don
m***@sky.com
2019-06-11 04:30:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
At some point after the fall of the Berlin Wall, when the great cold war opponent that Blish, Clarke, and Pournelle thought would last into future history just sort of curled up and died, I remember reading an article jokingly claiming that all of these good news stories couldn't be business as usual - it had to be alien influence behind the scenes.
nuny@bid.nes
2019-06-12 07:14:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
At some point after the fall of the Berlin Wall, when the great cold war
opponent that Blish, Clarke, and Pournelle thought would last into future
history just sort of curled up and died, I remember reading an article
jokingly claiming that all of these good news stories couldn't be business
as usual - it had to be alien influence behind the scenes.
Don't forget Laumer's war between "East" and West. No Bolos in our timeline.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?


Mark L. Fergerson
Dimensional Traveler
2019-06-12 15:05:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
At some point after the fall of the Berlin Wall, when the great cold war
opponent that Blish, Clarke, and Pournelle thought would last into future
history just sort of curled up and died, I remember reading an article
jokingly claiming that all of these good news stories couldn't be business
as usual - it had to be alien influence behind the scenes.
Don't forget Laumer's war between "East" and West. No Bolos in our timeline.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Too early to say that won't happen.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
J. Clarke
2019-06-13 01:08:22 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 08:05:24 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
At some point after the fall of the Berlin Wall, when the great cold war
opponent that Blish, Clarke, and Pournelle thought would last into future
history just sort of curled up and died, I remember reading an article
jokingly claiming that all of these good news stories couldn't be business
as usual - it had to be alien influence behind the scenes.
Don't forget Laumer's war between "East" and West. No Bolos in our timeline.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Too early to say that won't happen.
Too early to say that something like them might happen, but in the
Bolo universe the Mark III went into production last year.
nuny@bid.nes
2019-06-13 04:13:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 08:05:24 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
At some point after the fall of the Berlin Wall, when the great cold war
opponent that Blish, Clarke, and Pournelle thought would last into future
history just sort of curled up and died, I remember reading an article
jokingly claiming that all of these good news stories couldn't be business
as usual - it had to be alien influence behind the scenes.
Don't forget Laumer's war between "East" and West. No Bolos in our timeline.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Too early to say that won't happen.
Too early to say that something like them might happen, but in the
Bolo universe the Mark III went into production last year.
There is that, but being off by a mere year is nothing in SFnal "prediction" terms. And also, everybody and their grandmother is hand-wringing about AI in military 'bots...


Mark L. Fergerson
k***@outlook.com
2019-06-13 18:03:41 UTC
Permalink
...everybody and their grandmother is hand-wringing about AI in military 'bots...
Mark L. Fergerson
Yay, another opportunity to quote long time top robot scientist whose name I keep forgetting. "I can't imagine anyone giving a weapon to something as massively stupid as a robot", and this was the guy who loved robots the most.

Nils K. Hammer
m***@sky.com
2019-06-13 19:33:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@outlook.com
...everybody and their grandmother is hand-wringing about AI in military 'bots...
Mark L. Fergerson
Yay, another opportunity to quote long time top robot scientist whose name I keep forgetting. "I can't imagine anyone giving a weapon to something as massively stupid as a robot", and this was the guy who loved robots the most.
Nils K. Hammer
To predict the rise of killer robots, keep an eye on self-driving cars. In both cases, there is a risk of getting people killed (the wrong people in the case of the killer robots) so standard procedure should be to write a safety case, which conclusively proves that there is no practical risk of killing people. For an AI system with non-trivial vision recognition I think that's decades away, but if the self-driving car people find a way to do this or re-interpret the rules to get away without doing it, the application to killer robots will be obvious. Without such a drastic change, the military will always have to have at least the excuse of claiming there is a soldier in the loop who ordered the killing.

One recent article I read proclaimed the great advantage of an architecture for software on a fighter plane which specifically split the computer system into a safety-critical part and a part that could be written to normal commercial best practice. Finding a way to run stuff on the commercial side not only made it an order of magnitude cheaper to write, it meant that it could be deployed years earlier - so even if you know how to write a killer robot, you could be deploying a system that a soldier-in-the-loop system wipes the floor with, because they can deploy kit that is a generation in advance of the stuff that you have spent a decade proving won't kill the wrong people.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-06-13 20:16:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@bid.nes
...everybody and their grandmother is hand-wringing about AI in
military 'bots...
Mark L. Fergerson
Yay, another opportunity to quote long time top robot scientist whose
name I keep forgetting. "I can't imagine anyone giving a weapon to
something as massively stupid as a robot", and this was the guy who
loved robots the most.
Well, he had something there.

Rescue robots, though, may have a future.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2019-06-13 23:06:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@bid.nes
...everybody and their grandmother is hand-wringing about AI in
military 'bots...
Mark L. Fergerson
Yay, another opportunity to quote long time top robot scientist whose
name I keep forgetting. "I can't imagine anyone giving a weapon to
something as massively stupid as a robot", and this was the guy who
loved robots the most.
Well, he had something there.
Rescue robots, though, may have a future.
Should I call Old Glory Insurance?

https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/old-glory-insurance/n10766

:)

--
Kevin R
a.a #2310
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-06-13 23:47:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@bid.nes
...everybody and their grandmother is hand-wringing about AI in
military 'bots...
Mark L. Fergerson
Yay, another opportunity to quote long time top robot scientist whose
name I keep forgetting. "I can't imagine anyone giving a weapon to
something as massively stupid as a robot", and this was the guy who
loved robots the most.
Well, he had something there.
Rescue robots, though, may have a future.
Should I call Old Glory Insurance?
https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/old-glory-insurance/n10766
:)
Boston Dynamics would be a better idea.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-06-13 23:22:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@bid.nes
...everybody and their grandmother is hand-wringing about AI in
military 'bots...
Mark L. Fergerson
Yay, another opportunity to quote long time top robot scientist whose
name I keep forgetting. "I can't imagine anyone giving a weapon to
something as massively stupid as a robot", and this was the guy who
loved robots the most.
Well, he had something there.
Rescue robots, though, may have a future.
"Lassie's Rescue Robots!"
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Moriarty
2019-06-13 23:35:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@bid.nes
...everybody and their grandmother is hand-wringing about AI in
military 'bots...
Mark L. Fergerson
Yay, another opportunity to quote long time top robot scientist whose
name I keep forgetting. "I can't imagine anyone giving a weapon to
something as massively stupid as a robot", and this was the guy who
loved robots the most.
Well, he had something there.
Rescue robots, though, may have a future.
"Lassie's Rescue Robots!"
"What's that Lassie? Timmy's fallen down a black hole?"

-Moriarty
J. Clarke
2019-06-13 22:27:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 08:05:24 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
At some point after the fall of the Berlin Wall, when the great cold war
opponent that Blish, Clarke, and Pournelle thought would last into future
history just sort of curled up and died, I remember reading an article
jokingly claiming that all of these good news stories couldn't be business
as usual - it had to be alien influence behind the scenes.
Don't forget Laumer's war between "East" and West. No Bolos in our timeline.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Too early to say that won't happen.
Too early to say that something like them might happen, but in the
Bolo universe the Mark III went into production last year.
There is that, but being off by a mere year is nothing in SFnal "prediction" terms. And also, everybody and their grandmother is hand-wringing about AI in military 'bots...
Uh, "the Mark III" implies a Mark II and a Mark I, and neither of
those exist either.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2019-06-13 22:43:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Wednesday, June 12, 2019 at 6:08:23 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 08:05:24 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 9:30:04 PM UTC-7,
On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 9:57:34 PM UTC+1, Thomas
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing
important events in the past. So, looking back at our
history / timeline, where were they? Are there periods
or events in our history which are unlikely enough so
time travellers at least appear to be plausible?
At some point after the fall of the Berlin Wall, when the
great cold war opponent that Blish, Clarke, and Pournelle
thought would last into future history just sort of curled
up and died, I remember reading an article jokingly
claiming that all of these good news stories couldn't be
business as usual - it had to be alien influence behind
the scenes.
Don't forget Laumer's war between "East" and West. No
Bolos in our timeline.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Too early to say that won't happen.
Too early to say that something like them might happen, but in
the Bolo universe the Mark III went into production last year.
There is that, but being off by a mere year is nothing in
SFnal "prediction" terms. And also, everybody and their
grandmother is hand-wringing about AI in military 'bots...
Uh, "the Mark III" implies a Mark II and a Mark I, and neither
of those exist either.
That we know of.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Lynn McGuire
2019-06-13 23:41:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 08:05:24 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
At some point after the fall of the Berlin Wall, when the great cold war
opponent that Blish, Clarke, and Pournelle thought would last into future
history just sort of curled up and died, I remember reading an article
jokingly claiming that all of these good news stories couldn't be business
as usual - it had to be alien influence behind the scenes.
Don't forget Laumer's war between "East" and West. No Bolos in our timeline.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Too early to say that won't happen.
Too early to say that something like them might happen, but in the
Bolo universe the Mark III went into production last year.
There is that, but being off by a mere year is nothing in SFnal "prediction" terms. And also, everybody and their grandmother is hand-wringing about AI in military 'bots...
Mark L. Fergerson
The Bolos did not get true AI until the Mark X.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolo_universe#Artificial_intelligence

Lynn
Lynn McGuire
2019-06-11 22:12:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
There is an excellent Netflix tv show, Travelers, about why time travel
is very problematic.
https://www.netflix.com/title/80105699

Highly recommended.

Lynn
nuny@bid.nes
2019-06-12 07:24:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
If psychologists ever got hold of time travel and alternate timelines are a thing, they could easily be testing out their theories on timelines that don't lead to their own, running experiments that are now deemed unethical. They could say something like "these people aren't real so any pain they seem to be feeling is an illusion" or similar. It's not as if Idealists have never done anything like that before...

Anyway, imagine two psychs arguing...

"I bet I can get them to go to war over one assassination, say this minor Prince here."

"No, you can't- that's silly."

"How much cash you got on you?"

---

Somewhat later:

"I bet I can get Trump elected President."

"That's utterly ridiculous."

"How much cash you got on you?"


Mark L. Fergerson
a425couple
2019-06-12 15:03:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
If psychologists ever got hold of time travel and alternate timelines are a thing, they could easily be testing out their theories on timelines that don't lead to their own, running experiments that are now deemed unethical. They could say something like "these people aren't real so any pain they seem to be feeling is an illusion" or similar. It's not as if Idealists have never done anything like that before...
Anyway, imagine two psychs arguing...
"I bet I can get them to go to war over one assassination, say this minor Prince here."
"No, you can't- that's silly."
"How much cash you got on you?"
---
"I bet I can get Trump elected President."
"That's utterly ridiculous."
"How much cash you got on you?"
Mark L. Fergerson
Good one!
Gene Wirchenko
2019-06-12 20:09:31 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 08:03:45 -0700, a425couple
Post by a425couple
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
If psychologists ever got hold of time travel and alternate timelines are a thing, they could easily be testing out their theories on timelines that don't lead to their own, running experiments that are now deemed unethical. They could say something like "these people aren't real so any pain they seem to be feeling is an illusion" or similar. It's not as if Idealists have never done anything like that before...
Anyway, imagine two psychs arguing...
"I bet I can get them to go to war over one assassination, say this minor Prince here."
"No, you can't- that's silly."
"How much cash you got on you?"
---
"I bet I can get Trump elected President."
"That's utterly ridiculous."
"How much cash you got on you?"
Mark L. Fergerson
Good one!
Asimov wrote a short
S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E
"Spell My Name With an S" predicated on a minor change having a huge
effect.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Robert Carnegie
2019-06-12 20:08:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Thomas Koenig
There are many SF stories about time travellers changing important
events in the past. So, looking back at our history / timeline,
where were they? Are there periods or events in our history
which are unlikely enough so time travellers at least appear to
be plausible?
If psychologists ever got hold of time travel and alternate timelines are a thing, they could easily be testing out their theories on timelines that don't lead to their own, running experiments that are now deemed unethical. They could say something like "these people aren't real so any pain they seem to be feeling is an illusion" or similar. It's not as if Idealists have never done anything like that before...
Anyway, imagine two psychs arguing...
"I bet I can get them to go to war over one assassination, say this minor Prince here."
"No, you can't- that's silly."
"How much cash you got on you?"
---
"I bet I can get Trump elected President."
"That's utterly ridiculous."
"How much cash you got on you?"
Mark L. Fergerson
Asimov's story <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Sol>
comes to mind; are we in it now?
David DeLaney
2019-06-25 04:36:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@bid.nes
Anyway, imagine two psychs arguing...
"I bet I can get them to go to war over one assassination, say this minor Prince here."
"No, you can't- that's silly."
"How much cash you got on you?"
---
"I bet I can get Trump elected President."
"That's utterly ridiculous."
"How much cash you got on you?"
Zelazny, _Frost and Fire_, I think.

Dave, I'm also remembering one of a similar concept titled "Blood and Dust",
but it doesn't seem to exist
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David Goldfarb
2019-06-27 05:16:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, I'm also remembering one of a similar concept titled "Blood and Dust",
but it doesn't seem to exist
According to the ISFDB, "The Game of Blood and Dust" was published in
the April 1975 issue of _Galaxy_ and collected in _The Last Defender
of Camelot_. Or are you claiming it did exist but was retconned out
of the timeline by malicious time travelers?
--
David Goldfarb |"...I'm a member of the Centre Extremist party.
***@gmail.com | We have very moderate views, but if you don't
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | agree with them, we'll kill you."
Leif Roar Moldskred
2019-06-27 07:10:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Goldfarb
Or are you claiming it did exist but was retconned out
of the timeline by malicious time travelers?
It _used to be_.
--
Leif Roar Moldskred
D B Davis
2019-06-27 09:58:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, I'm also remembering one of a similar concept titled "Blood and Dust",
but it doesn't seem to exist
According to the ISFDB, "The Game of Blood and Dust" was published in
the April 1975 issue of _Galaxy_ and collected in _The Last Defender
of Camelot_. Or are you claiming it did exist but was retconned out
of the timeline by malicious time travelers?
Jonesing for this story ultimately led me to:
https://archive.org/details/Galaxy_v36n04_1975-04/page/n5

This 3 1/2 page short^2 story has two "forward point" inhabitants treat
all life on Earth as a disposable plaything.

Along the way to the Zelazny, "The Five Plots of Time" was encountered:

The Five Master Plots of Time Travel Stories

Master plot #1. A man tries to change history and fails.
He is doomed to failure, no matter what, because the past
can’t be changed. ...

Master plot #2. A man tries to change the past in some
logically forbidden way. ... The stars go out; the universe
ends. ...

Master plot #3. ... A man tries to fix a tragedy by
going back in time, but instead makes things worse. ...

Master plot #4. A man is in a world different from ours.
He tries to change the past, succeeds, and his world morphs
into the “real” world, i. e. ours. ...

Master plot #5. A man tries to change history, but instead
creates a new timeline, or crosses over into an existing alternate
timeline. ...

https://sydlogsdon.com/2017/10/30/426-the-five-plots-of-time/

If this sort of thing interests you, it's worth a visit to the link.



Thank you,
--
Don
Quadibloc
2019-06-27 17:41:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
The Five Master Plots of Time Travel Stories
Master plot #1. A man tries to change history and fails.
He is doomed to failure, no matter what, because the past
can’t be changed. ...
Master plot #2. A man tries to change the past in some
logically forbidden way. ... The stars go out; the universe
ends. ...
Master plot #3. ... A man tries to fix a tragedy by
going back in time, but instead makes things worse. ...
Master plot #4. A man is in a world different from ours.
He tries to change the past, succeeds, and his world morphs
into the “real” world, i. e. ours. ...
Master plot #5. A man tries to change history, but instead
creates a new timeline, or crosses over into an existing alternate
timeline. ...
https://sydlogsdon.com/2017/10/30/426-the-five-plots-of-time/
If this sort of thing interests you, it's worth a visit to the link.
Ah, I didn't read your post carefully; I Googled, and found that
link,

https://sydlogsdon.com/2017/10/30/426-the-five-plots-of-time/

after being disappointed I couldn't find that in the issue of
Galaxy.

Of course, in my opinion, while those five basic plotlines deal
with many science-fiction stories about attempts to change known
past events, in violation of causality...

they omit the _most common_ type of time-travel story.

If you count things like the TV shows "The Time Tunnel", "Doctor
Who", and "Quantum Leap", that is.

Someone travels to the past, using an erratic, quirky time
travel device which is not fully controllable. While he is
unable to change major events in the past that are known to have
happened, he was _meant_ to arrive at that particular past
moment in order to...

prevent some major tragedy that *didn't* happen, but would have,
if not for him (i.e. flying-saucer aliens landed on Earth in the
Middle Ages, and would have blown it up if not for being foiled
by the time traveller), or

alleviate the consequences of a major tragedy by directing an
individual along the right path (i.e. while not being able to
prevent the Titanic from sinking, the time traveller encourages
one depressed woman to go forwards to the lifeboats when she
otherwise wouldn't).

So each week they can tell stories about the time traveller
doing some good without ever bumping into a causality paradox.

John Savard
Joe Pfeiffer
2019-06-27 17:57:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by D B Davis
The Five Master Plots of Time Travel Stories
Master plot #1. A man tries to change history and fails.
He is doomed to failure, no matter what, because the past
can’t be changed. ...
Master plot #2. A man tries to change the past in some
logically forbidden way. ... The stars go out; the universe
ends. ...
Master plot #3. ... A man tries to fix a tragedy by
going back in time, but instead makes things worse. ...
Master plot #4. A man is in a world different from ours.
He tries to change the past, succeeds, and his world morphs
into the “real” world, i. e. ours. ...
Master plot #5. A man tries to change history, but instead
creates a new timeline, or crosses over into an existing alternate
timeline. ...
https://sydlogsdon.com/2017/10/30/426-the-five-plots-of-time/
If this sort of thing interests you, it's worth a visit to the link.
Ah, I didn't read your post carefully; I Googled, and found that
link,
https://sydlogsdon.com/2017/10/30/426-the-five-plots-of-time/
after being disappointed I couldn't find that in the issue of
Galaxy.
Of course, in my opinion, while those five basic plotlines deal
with many science-fiction stories about attempts to change known
past events, in violation of causality...
they omit the _most common_ type of time-travel story.
If you count things like the TV shows "The Time Tunnel", "Doctor
Who", and "Quantum Leap", that is.
Someone travels to the past, using an erratic, quirky time
travel device which is not fully controllable. While he is
unable to change major events in the past that are known to have
happened, he was _meant_ to arrive at that particular past
moment in order to...
prevent some major tragedy that *didn't* happen, but would have,
if not for him (i.e. flying-saucer aliens landed on Earth in the
Middle Ages, and would have blown it up if not for being foiled
by the time traveller), or
alleviate the consequences of a major tragedy by directing an
individual along the right path (i.e. while not being able to
prevent the Titanic from sinking, the time traveller encourages
one depressed woman to go forwards to the lifeboats when she
otherwise wouldn't).
So each week they can tell stories about the time traveller
doing some good without ever bumping into a causality paradox.
John Savard
That's #4.
Robert Carnegie
2019-06-27 21:45:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by D B Davis
The Five Master Plots of Time Travel Stories
Master plot #1. A man tries to change history and fails.
He is doomed to failure, no matter what, because the past
can’t be changed. ...
Master plot #2. A man tries to change the past in some
logically forbidden way. ... The stars go out; the universe
ends. ...
Master plot #3. ... A man tries to fix a tragedy by
going back in time, but instead makes things worse. ...
Master plot #4. A man is in a world different from ours.
He tries to change the past, succeeds, and his world morphs
into the “real” world, i. e. ours. ...
Master plot #5. A man tries to change history, but instead
creates a new timeline, or crosses over into an existing alternate
timeline. ...
https://sydlogsdon.com/2017/10/30/426-the-five-plots-of-time/
If this sort of thing interests you, it's worth a visit to the link.
Ah, I didn't read your post carefully; I Googled, and found that
link,
https://sydlogsdon.com/2017/10/30/426-the-five-plots-of-time/
after being disappointed I couldn't find that in the issue of
Galaxy.
Of course, in my opinion, while those five basic plotlines deal
with many science-fiction stories about attempts to change known
past events, in violation of causality...
they omit the _most common_ type of time-travel story.
If you count things like the TV shows "The Time Tunnel", "Doctor
Who", and "Quantum Leap", that is.
Someone travels to the past, using an erratic, quirky time
travel device which is not fully controllable. While he is
unable to change major events in the past that are known to have
happened, he was _meant_ to arrive at that particular past
moment in order to...
prevent some major tragedy that *didn't* happen, but would have,
if not for him (i.e. flying-saucer aliens landed on Earth in the
Middle Ages, and would have blown it up if not for being foiled
by the time traveller), or
alleviate the consequences of a major tragedy by directing an
individual along the right path (i.e. while not being able to
prevent the Titanic from sinking, the time traveller encourages
one depressed woman to go forwards to the lifeboats when she
otherwise wouldn't).
So each week they can tell stories about the time traveller
doing some good without ever bumping into a causality paradox.
John Savard
My present theory about Doctor Who is that every time
he/she (or anyone else, including bad guys) changes
history with time travel, there are consequences, for
subsequent events at least, and changes everywhere.
And job security.

The main evidence is that he/she has witnessed or
caused three different versions of the fall of Atlantis,
and utterly destroyed his great enemies the Daleks
more than once. Evidently this got undone and he
had to, um, do it again.

This has been taken to the extreme level of recently
having his 1960s version meet a woman from the distant
future (2017) and describe a theory of his, if I understood
correctly, that logically, in good versus evil,
evil should generally win; but, hopping around in time,
he has found that not happening. A factor is missing
in his calculation. Her idea: "Perhaps there's just
some bloke, wandering around, putting everything right
when it goes wrong." Namely, him.

Oh, and he's prevented the destruction of the universe
more than once - so if someone undoes /him/ with
time travel then it had better be un-undone fast.
D B Davis
2019-06-27 15:35:01 UTC
Permalink
Epilogue added.
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, I'm also remembering one of a similar concept titled "Blood and Dust",
but it doesn't seem to exist
According to the ISFDB, "The Game of Blood and Dust" was published in
the April 1975 issue of _Galaxy_ and collected in _The Last Defender
of Camelot_. Or are you claiming it did exist but was retconned out
of the timeline by malicious time travelers?
Jonesing for this story ultimately led me to:
https://archive.org/details/Galaxy_v36n04_1975-04/page/n5

This 3 1/2 page short^2 story has two "forward point" inhabitants treat
all life on Earth as a disposable plaything.

Addendum:

"The Game of Blood and Dust"

Along the way to the Zelazny, "The Five Plots of Time" was encountered:

The Five Master Plots of Time Travel Stories

Master plot #1. A man tries to change history and fails.
He is doomed to failure, no matter what, because the past
can’t be changed. ...

Master plot #2. A man tries to change the past in some
logically forbidden way. ... The stars go out; the universe
ends. ...

Master plot #3. ... A man tries to fix a tragedy by
going back in time, but instead makes things worse. ...

Master plot #4. A man is in a world different from ours.
He tries to change the past, succeeds, and his world morphs
into the “real” world, i. e. ours. ...

Master plot #5. A man tries to change history, but instead
creates a new timeline, or crosses over into an existing alternate
timeline. ...

https://sydlogsdon.com/2017/10/30/426-the-five-plots-of-time/

If this sort of thing interests you, it's worth a visit to the link.

Epilogue.

"The great man of history" theory is but one of many history theories.
[1] "The Game of Blood and Dust" makes extensive use of "the great man
of history" theory:

[T]he history of the world is but the biography of great
men - Thomas Carlyle

Note.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Theories_of_history



Thank you,
--
Don
David DeLaney
2019-06-30 02:37:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, I'm also remembering one of a similar concept titled "Blood and Dust",
but it doesn't seem to exist
According to the ISFDB, "The Game of Blood and Dust" was published in
the April 1975 issue of _Galaxy_ and collected in _The Last Defender
of Camelot_. Or are you claiming it did exist but was retconned out
of the timeline by malicious time travelers?
Oh, okay - I have obviously disconfabulated it into memories of two stories,
and then smooshed the Frost and Fire title of another Zelazny book onto one of
them. And Now You Know.

Dave, the time-travelers thing I need for some OTHER stuff, but thanks
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
k***@outlook.com
2019-06-25 05:25:46 UTC
Permalink
Okay, since folks valued the quote, the guy was Hans Moravec. I think he came up with the idea of "bush robots" which are scalable groups of small bots holding hands and linking computational power in whatever size working group is needed to get a job done.

Nils K. Hammer
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