Discussion:
About to lose my Vorkosigan virgnity
(too old to reply)
Bice
2020-02-28 16:36:10 UTC
Permalink
I'm mostly just a lurker here, but I've mentioned a couple times that
I'm working on reading all the Hugo winning novels in chronological
order. Well, I'm up to the early 90s and just finished the Hyperion
series, so next up is the Vorkosigan saga. Since the series includes
three Hugo winners and because of the massive amounts of praise I've
seen for it on this newsgroup, I've decided to read the whole saga.
Here's a nice picture of all the paperbacks and hardcovers lined up on
the shelf above my computer:

Loading Image...

Despite being a fairly avid science fiction reader in the late 80s and
early 90s, I somehow never read anything from this series. Possibly
because if I ever did run across any of the books in stores, I might
have assumed that they were romance novels based on the cover art.
Why does Baen have so many covers that I'd be embarrased to be seen
reading in public?

Anyway, did you ever have that feeling of "I wish I could read that
again for the first time?" Well, that's where I'm at with the
Vorkosigan books. If it turns out that I don't like them, I'm holding
the newsgroup responsible...

-- Bob
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2020-02-28 16:13:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bice
I'm mostly just a lurker here, but I've mentioned a couple times
that I'm working on reading all the Hugo winning novels in
chronological order. Well, I'm up to the early 90s and just
finished the Hyperion series, so next up is the Vorkosigan saga.
Since the series includes three Hugo winners and because of the
massive amounts of praise I've seen for it on this newsgroup,
I've decided to read the whole saga. Here's a nice picture of
all the paperbacks and hardcovers lined up on the shelf above my
http://eichler.byethost11.com/books/Hugo/VorkosiganSaga.jpg
Despite being a fairly avid science fiction reader in the late
80s and early 90s, I somehow never read anything from this
series. Possibly because if I ever did run across any of the
books in stores, I might have assumed that they were romance
novels based on the cover art. Why does Baen have so many covers
that I'd be embarrased to be seen reading in public?
I think they trademarked the idea. They're certainly better at it
than anybody (in the English Speaking world - some of the foreign
language covers are far worse[1])
Post by Bice
Anyway, did you ever have that feeling of "I wish I could read
that again for the first time?" Well, that's where I'm at with
the Vorkosigan books. If it turns out that I don't like them,
I'm holding the newsgroup responsible...
Good luck with them.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Kadett-Lois-McMaster-
Bujold/dp/3453149076 for example
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Bice
2020-02-28 20:19:33 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 09:13:34 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Bice
Why does Baen have so many covers
that I'd be embarrased to be seen reading in public?
I think they trademarked the idea. They're certainly better at it
than anybody (in the English Speaking world - some of the foreign
language covers are far worse[1])
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Kadett-Lois-McMaster-
Bujold/dp/3453149076 for example
Wow, that is bad. Looks like someone tried to disguise a decapitated
corpse by putting an orange road cone with a hat and sunglasses on top
and then painting a big smile on it.

-- Bob
t***@gmail.com
2020-02-29 19:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bice
On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 09:13:34 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Bice
Why does Baen have so many covers
that I'd be embarrased to be seen reading in public?
I think they trademarked the idea. They're certainly better at it
than anybody (in the English Speaking world - some of the foreign
language covers are far worse[1])
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Kadett-Lois-McMaster-
Bujold/dp/3453149076 for example
Wow, that is bad. Looks like someone tried to disguise a decapitated
corpse by putting an orange road cone with a hat and sunglasses on top
and then painting a big smile on it.
Yeah - around here (rasfw) we called that one Miles Used-cars-igan for a while. It's bad.
- Tony
Dimensional Traveler
2020-02-29 22:18:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Bice
On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 09:13:34 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Bice
Why does Baen have so many covers
that I'd be embarrased to be seen reading in public?
I think they trademarked the idea. They're certainly better at it
than anybody (in the English Speaking world - some of the foreign
language covers are far worse[1])
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Kadett-Lois-McMaster-
Bujold/dp/3453149076 for example
Wow, that is bad. Looks like someone tried to disguise a decapitated
corpse by putting an orange road cone with a hat and sunglasses on top
and then painting a big smile on it.
Yeah - around here (rasfw) we called that one Miles Used-cars-igan for a while. It's bad.
- Tony
"Would you buy a used warship from this person?"
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
Harold Hill
2020-03-02 14:21:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Bice
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Kadett-Lois-McMaster-
Bujold/dp/3453149076 for example
Wow, that is bad. Looks like someone tried to disguise a decapitated
corpse by putting an orange road cone with a hat and sunglasses on top
and then painting a big smile on it.
Yeah - around here (rasfw) we called that one Miles Used-cars-igan for a while. It's bad.
- Tony
Used-cars-igan has grown on me over the years. I actually think it is kind of appropriate. He does spend essentially the entire novel trying to sell everyone he encounters something or other. A fixed rictus on his face seems about right.

-Harold Hill
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2020-03-02 18:18:23 UTC
Permalink
On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 2:04:34 PM UTC-5,
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Bice
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Kadett-Lois-McMaster-
Bujold/dp/3453149076 for example
Wow, that is bad. Looks like someone tried to disguise a
decapitated corpse by putting an orange road cone with a hat
and sunglasses on top and then painting a big smile on it.
Yeah - around here (rasfw) we called that one Miles
Used-cars-igan for a while. It's bad. - Tony
Used-cars-igan has grown on me over the years. I actually think
it is kind of appropriate. He does spend essentially the entire
novel trying to sell everyone he encounters something or other.
A fixed rictus on his face seems about right.
The only analogy that fits better would be snake oil salesman.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Richard Hershberger
2020-02-28 18:34:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bice
I'm mostly just a lurker here, but I've mentioned a couple times that
I'm working on reading all the Hugo winning novels in chronological
order. Well, I'm up to the early 90s and just finished the Hyperion
series, so next up is the Vorkosigan saga. Since the series includes
three Hugo winners and because of the massive amounts of praise I've
seen for it on this newsgroup, I've decided to read the whole saga.
Here's a nice picture of all the paperbacks and hardcovers lined up on
http://eichler.byethost11.com/books/Hugo/VorkosiganSaga.jpg
Despite being a fairly avid science fiction reader in the late 80s and
early 90s, I somehow never read anything from this series. Possibly
because if I ever did run across any of the books in stores, I might
have assumed that they were romance novels based on the cover art.
Why does Baen have so many covers that I'd be embarrased to be seen
reading in public?
Anyway, did you ever have that feeling of "I wish I could read that
again for the first time?" Well, that's where I'm at with the
Vorkosigan books. If it turns out that I don't like them, I'm holding
the newsgroup responsible...
-- Bob
Be aware that getting up and running with this series is a bit awkward. There are various possible reading orders. Picking one at random and diving in is probably not the best, as the characters', um, characters matter in this series more than they do in many. They grow up over the course of the series. So why not just start at the beginning and go forward? This is not entirely straightfoward. For one thing, Bujold did not write them in strict chronological order. They don't jump around entirely willy-nilly, but she sometimes went back and wrote books set earlier on. So you need to decide what exactly "start at the beginning and go forward" means. The kicker is that Bujold's writing improved over the course of the series. The characters aren't the only ones growing. Reading them in the order they were written is a perfectly reasonable approach. I would probably say it is the best way to go. But you need to go into the project accepting that the earlier writing can be a bit rough at times, and requires a high tolerance for coincidence-driven plots. But by no means should you let this stop you. Indeed, it provides the added pleasure of seeing the author grow.

Richard Hershberger
Bice
2020-02-28 20:25:09 UTC
Permalink
Be aware that getting up and running with this series is a bit awkward. Th=
ere are various possible reading orders.
I was going to go with the internal chronological order listed on the
Wikipedia page under "Works":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga#Works

That page claims that the author recommends reading them in that
order.

-- Bob
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2020-02-28 21:05:02 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 10:34:40 -0800 (PST), Richard Hershberger
Post by Richard Hershberger
Be aware that getting up and running with this series is a bit
awkward. Th= ere are various possible reading orders.
I was going to go with the internal chronological order listed
That will provide a somewhat erratic level of writing skill. Plus,
there are a handlful of inconsistencies between some books that make
even less sense that way than if read in the order in which they were
written[1]. But overall, it's a perfectly reasonable choice (as is
the order in which they were published, or the order in which they
were written - which is not *quite* the same.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga#Works
That page claims that the author recommends reading them in that
order.
She recommends reading them in whatever order you choose to.


[1]"I reserve the right to have a better idea."
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
t***@gmail.com
2020-02-29 19:19:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Bice
Post by Richard Hershberger
Be aware that getting up and running with this series is a bit
awkward. Th= ere are various possible reading orders.
I was going to go with the internal chronological order listed
That will provide a somewhat erratic level of writing skill. Plus,
there are a handlful of inconsistencies between some books that make
even less sense that way than if read in the order in which they were
written[1]. But overall, it's a perfectly reasonable choice (as is
the order in which they were published, or the order in which they
were written - which is not *quite* the same.)
Post by Bice
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga#Works
That page claims that the author recommends reading them in that
order.
She recommends reading them in whatever order you choose to.
That she does, and I was very interested to discover some more of
her thoughts on this exact topic in an Appendix to "Penric's Progress"
called "Author's Note: A Bujold Reading-Order Guide". A few excerpts:

<About the Vorkosigan Stories:>
"...I favor internal chronological <order> with a few adjustments.

It was always my intention to write each book as a stand-alone, so that
the reader could theoretically jump in anywhere. While still somewhat true,
as the series developed it acquired a number of sub-arcs, closely related
tales that were richer for each other. ..."

"...For readers who want to be sure of beginning at the beginning, or who
are very spoiler-sensitive, start with <Shards of Honor and Barrayar>."

"... The Warrior's Apprentice introduces the character who became the
series' linchpin, Miles Vorkosigan, ... and makes another good place to
jump into the series. ..."

"After <The Warrior's Apprentice and The Vor Game>, Brothers in Arms
should be read before Mirror Dance, and both, ideally, before Memory."

and one final excerpt:
"Komarr makes another alternate entry point for the series, picking
up Miles's second career at its start. It should be read before
A Civil Campaign."

Tony, who recommends starting with Shards of Honor and Barrayar
Lynn McGuire
2020-03-01 21:24:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Bice
Post by Richard Hershberger
Be aware that getting up and running with this series is a bit
awkward. Th= ere are various possible reading orders.
I was going to go with the internal chronological order listed
That will provide a somewhat erratic level of writing skill. Plus,
there are a handlful of inconsistencies between some books that make
even less sense that way than if read in the order in which they were
written[1]. But overall, it's a perfectly reasonable choice (as is
the order in which they were published, or the order in which they
were written - which is not *quite* the same.)
Post by Bice
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga#Works
That page claims that the author recommends reading them in that
order.
She recommends reading them in whatever order you choose to.
That she does, and I was very interested to discover some more of
her thoughts on this exact topic in an Appendix to "Penric's Progress"
<About the Vorkosigan Stories:>
"...I favor internal chronological <order> with a few adjustments.
It was always my intention to write each book as a stand-alone, so that
the reader could theoretically jump in anywhere. While still somewhat true,
as the series developed it acquired a number of sub-arcs, closely related
tales that were richer for each other. ..."
"...For readers who want to be sure of beginning at the beginning, or who
are very spoiler-sensitive, start with <Shards of Honor and Barrayar>."
"... The Warrior's Apprentice introduces the character who became the
series' linchpin, Miles Vorkosigan, ... and makes another good place to
jump into the series. ..."
"After <The Warrior's Apprentice and The Vor Game>, Brothers in Arms
should be read before Mirror Dance, and both, ideally, before Memory."
"Komarr makes another alternate entry point for the series, picking
up Miles's second career at its start. It should be read before
A Civil Campaign."
Tony, who recommends starting with Shards of Honor and Barrayar
Two of the best in the series. The shopping trip just about the
craziest thing I have ever read.

Lynn
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2020-03-02 18:19:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 5:05:06 PM UTC-5, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Bice
Post by Richard Hershberger
Be aware that getting up and running with this series is a
bit awkward. Th= ere are various possible reading orders.
I was going to go with the internal chronological order
That will provide a somewhat erratic level of writing skill.
Plus, there are a handlful of inconsistencies between some
books that make even less sense that way than if read in the
order in which they were written[1]. But overall, it's a
perfectly reasonable choice (as is the order in which they
were published, or the order in which they were written -
which is not *quite* the same.)
Post by Bice
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga#Works
That page claims that the author recommends reading them in
that order.
She recommends reading them in whatever order you choose to.
That she does, and I was very interested to discover some more
of her thoughts on this exact topic in an Appendix to "Penric's
Progress" called "Author's Note: A Bujold Reading-Order Guide".
<About the Vorkosigan Stories:>
"...I favor internal chronological <order> with a few
adjustments.
It was always my intention to write each book as a stand-alone,
so that the reader could theoretically jump in anywhere. While
still somewhat true, as the series developed it acquired a
number of sub-arcs, closely related tales that were richer for
each other. ..."
"...For readers who want to be sure of beginning at the
beginning, or who are very spoiler-sensitive, start with
<Shards of Honor and Barrayar>."
"... The Warrior's Apprentice introduces the character who
became the series' linchpin, Miles Vorkosigan, ... and makes
another good place to jump into the series. ..."
"After <The Warrior's Apprentice and The Vor Game>, Brothers in
Arms should be read before Mirror Dance, and both, ideally,
before Memory."
"Komarr makes another alternate entry point for the series,
picking up Miles's second career at its start. It should be
read before A Civil Campaign."
Tony, who recommends starting with Shards of Honor and Barrayar
Two of the best in the series.
*One* of the best, really, since it's really one story.

Among my all-time favorite books.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Bice
2020-03-17 11:53:26 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 15:24:52 -0600, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by t***@gmail.com
Tony, who recommends starting with Shards of Honor and Barrayar
Two of the best in the series. The shopping trip just about the
craziest thing I have ever read.
OK, I just finished the book and...what shopping trip are you talking
about? The only things I can think of were when Cordelia went to buy
the swordstick, and the ending where she ironically refers to her
rescue mission as going "shopping" in the Capitol. Neither seemed
particularly "crazy" to me.

-- Bob
p***@hotmail.com
2020-03-17 16:00:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bice
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 15:24:52 -0600, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by t***@gmail.com
Tony, who recommends starting with Shards of Honor and Barrayar
Two of the best in the series. The shopping trip just about the
craziest thing I have ever read.
OK, I just finished the book and...what shopping trip are you talking
about? The only things I can think of were when Cordelia went to buy
the swordstick, and the ending where she ironically refers to her
rescue mission as going "shopping" in the Capitol. Neither seemed
particularly "crazy" to me.
Different people have different standards of normality. Returning
from downtown with the rebel leader's head in a shopping bag seems
crazy to some people, YMMV.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2020-03-17 17:22:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Bice
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 15:24:52 -0600, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by t***@gmail.com
Tony, who recommends starting with Shards of Honor and Barrayar
Two of the best in the series. The shopping trip just about the
craziest thing I have ever read.
OK, I just finished the book and...what shopping trip are you talking
about? The only things I can think of were when Cordelia went to buy
the swordstick, and the ending where she ironically refers to her
rescue mission as going "shopping" in the Capitol. Neither seemed
particularly "crazy" to me.
Different people have different standards of normality. Returning
from downtown with the rebel leader's head in a shopping bag seems
crazy to some people, YMMV.
I mean, well if she got a good deal..
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Robert Woodward
2020-03-17 17:43:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Bice
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 15:24:52 -0600, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by t***@gmail.com
Tony, who recommends starting with Shards of Honor and Barrayar
Two of the best in the series. The shopping trip just about the
craziest thing I have ever read.
OK, I just finished the book and...what shopping trip are you talking
about? The only things I can think of were when Cordelia went to buy
the swordstick, and the ending where she ironically refers to her
rescue mission as going "shopping" in the Capitol. Neither seemed
particularly "crazy" to me.
Different people have different standards of normality. Returning
from downtown with the rebel leader's head in a shopping bag seems
crazy to some people, YMMV.
I mean, well if she got a good deal..
She paid too much for it (i.e., the price was Princess Kareen's death).
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2020-03-17 17:50:21 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Bice
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 15:24:52 -0600, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by t***@gmail.com
Tony, who recommends starting with Shards of Honor and
Barrayar
Two of the best in the series. The shopping trip just about
the craziest thing I have ever read.
OK, I just finished the book and...what shopping trip are you
talking about? The only things I can think of were when
Cordelia went to buy the swordstick, and the ending where she
ironically refers to her rescue mission as going "shopping" in
the Capitol. Neither seemed particularly "crazy" to me.
Different people have different standards of normality.
Returning from downtown with the rebel leader's head in a
shopping bag seems crazy to some people, YMMV.
I mean, well if she got a good deal..
"I paid too much."

"That, too, is traditional."
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Walter Bushell
2020-04-16 20:30:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I mean, well if she got a good deal..
Of all the sweet things in life the head of a tryrant is sweetest of
all.
--
Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greed. Me.
Dan Swartzendruber
2020-03-22 02:03:40 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@localhost>, ***@comcastsucks.net
says...
Post by Bice
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 15:24:52 -0600, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by t***@gmail.com
Tony, who recommends starting with Shards of Honor and Barrayar
Two of the best in the series. The shopping trip just about the
craziest thing I have ever read.
OK, I just finished the book and...what shopping trip are you talking
about? The only things I can think of were when Cordelia went to buy
the swordstick, and the ending where she ironically refers to her
rescue mission as going "shopping" in the Capitol. Neither seemed
particularly "crazy" to me.
Walking into your husband's staff meeting, announcing that you went
shopping, spilling the severed head onto the table, and saying that you
paid too much for it? Sounds pretty crazy to me...
Bice
2020-03-24 13:50:57 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 22:03:40 -0400, Dan Swartzendruber
Post by Dan Swartzendruber
says...
Post by Bice
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 15:24:52 -0600, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by t***@gmail.com
Tony, who recommends starting with Shards of Honor and Barrayar
Two of the best in the series. The shopping trip just about the
craziest thing I have ever read.
OK, I just finished the book and...what shopping trip are you talking
about? The only things I can think of were when Cordelia went to buy
the swordstick, and the ending where she ironically refers to her
rescue mission as going "shopping" in the Capitol. Neither seemed
particularly "crazy" to me.
Walking into your husband's staff meeting, announcing that you went
shopping, spilling the severed head onto the table, and saying that you
paid too much for it? Sounds pretty crazy to me...
Yeah, if we had no idea *why* she had a severed head in a bag and if
she weren't just being ironic with the whole "shopping" bit, that
would be pretty crazy.

But in the context of the story, where Cordelia and everyone else in
the room knew what she had done and why, it didn't com across as
particularly "crazy" to me.

-- Bob
Leif Roar Moldskred
2020-03-24 15:30:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bice
But in the context of the story, where Cordelia and everyone else in
the room knew what she had done and why, it didn't com across as
particularly "crazy" to me.
Crazy like a party, not crazy like a schizophrenic.
--
Leif Roar Moldskred
Which is more of the latter, probably.
Titus G
2020-03-25 02:58:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leif Roar Moldskred
Post by Bice
But in the context of the story, where Cordelia and everyone else in
the room knew what she had done and why, it didn't com across as
particularly "crazy" to me.
Crazy like a party, not crazy like a schizophrenic.
It didn't come across as crazy to me in either sense. More implausible
than anything else
I have just finished Shards of Honour and Barrayar. Whilst I enjoyed
them and rated them three stars I am not sure if I will continue the
series when there are more books to read by the Praxis and Exordium
authors for example.
I had trouble empathising with the good guys, murderous as the bad guys.
"The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful
green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without
lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but
cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent
in that future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present—they
are real." Aral V. Page 140 Shards.

And was annoyed at the sometimes passive plot advancement. For instance
when Aral murdered the whole ships crew as well as the prince, but as
Cordelia was not to find out till later, nor did the reader. Perhaps it
was written that way for shock value?

Perhaps the best part of it all was Cordelia's complex character?
h***@gmail.com
2020-03-25 03:33:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Leif Roar Moldskred
Post by Bice
But in the context of the story, where Cordelia and everyone else in
the room knew what she had done and why, it didn't com across as
particularly "crazy" to me.
Crazy like a party, not crazy like a schizophrenic.
It didn't come across as crazy to me in either sense. More implausible
than anything else
I have just finished Shards of Honour and Barrayar. Whilst I enjoyed
them and rated them three stars I am not sure if I will continue the
series when there are more books to read by the Praxis and Exordium
authors for example.
I'd recommend trying at least the first couple of Miles books before jumping off
Post by Titus G
I had trouble empathising with the good guys, murderous as the bad guys.
Not really.
Post by Titus G
"The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful
green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without
lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but
cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent
in that future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present—they
are real." Aral V. Page 140 Shards.
And was annoyed at the sometimes passive plot advancement. For instance
when Aral murdered the whole ships crew as well as the prince, but as
Cordelia was not to find out till later, nor did the reader. Perhaps it
was written that way for shock value?
She's the viewpoint character.
Post by Titus G
Perhaps the best part of it all was Cordelia's complex character?
Probably
Dan Swartzendruber
2020-03-26 03:27:24 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@news.eternal-september.org>, eichler2
@comcastsucks.net says...
Post by Bice
On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 22:03:40 -0400, Dan Swartzendruber
Post by Dan Swartzendruber
says...
Post by Bice
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 15:24:52 -0600, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by t***@gmail.com
Tony, who recommends starting with Shards of Honor and Barrayar
Two of the best in the series. The shopping trip just about the
craziest thing I have ever read.
OK, I just finished the book and...what shopping trip are you talking
about? The only things I can think of were when Cordelia went to buy
the swordstick, and the ending where she ironically refers to her
rescue mission as going "shopping" in the Capitol. Neither seemed
particularly "crazy" to me.
Walking into your husband's staff meeting, announcing that you went
shopping, spilling the severed head onto the table, and saying that you
paid too much for it? Sounds pretty crazy to me...
Yeah, if we had no idea *why* she had a severed head in a bag and if
she weren't just being ironic with the whole "shopping" bit, that
would be pretty crazy.
But in the context of the story, where Cordelia and everyone else in
the room knew what she had done and why, it didn't com across as
particularly "crazy" to me.
Fair enough. I s'pose I was more thinking from the POV of the folks in
the staff meeting :)
Robert Carnegie
2020-03-26 09:43:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Swartzendruber
says...
Post by Bice
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 15:24:52 -0600, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by t***@gmail.com
Tony, who recommends starting with Shards of Honor and Barrayar
Two of the best in the series. The shopping trip just about the
craziest thing I have ever read.
OK, I just finished the book and...what shopping trip are you talking
about? The only things I can think of were when Cordelia went to buy
the swordstick, and the ending where she ironically refers to her
rescue mission as going "shopping" in the Capitol. Neither seemed
particularly "crazy" to me.
Walking into your husband's staff meeting, announcing that you went
shopping, spilling the severed head onto the table, and saying that you
paid too much for it? Sounds pretty crazy to me...
I think it came up on BBC radio comedy panel programme
_The Rest is History_ that after the death of Elizabethan
courtier Sir Walter Raleigh, his wife
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Raleigh>
"is said to have had her husband's head embalmed and to
have carried it around with her for the rest of her life,
although" maybe not. I think Miles Jupp imagined
planning a dinner party invitation. "Is she bringing
the, the..." (And would you have an extra place set?)

The show's mission theoretically was to verify or
dispose of unlikely stories from "history" after
playing with them, but this one may have been
too good to.
Walter Bushell
2020-04-16 20:22:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Two of the best in the series. The shopping trip just about the
craziest thing I have ever read.
Flawed perhaps, but only in such a way could we have gotten a character
like Bothari perhaps the most morally ambiguous character I have
encountered.
--
Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greed. Me.
Christian Weisgerber
2020-02-28 22:11:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bice
Be aware that getting up and running with this series is a bit awkward. Th=
ere are various possible reading orders.
I was going to go with the internal chronological order listed on the
I did that and in retrospect think that reading them in publishing
order would have been better. _Cetaganda_ in particular felt like
a jarring break in style from the surrounding books.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Moriarty
2020-03-01 20:45:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bice
Be aware that getting up and running with this series is a bit awkward. Th=
ere are various possible reading orders.
I was going to go with the internal chronological order listed on the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga#Works
That page claims that the author recommends reading them in that
order.
That means you'll read "Falling Free" first. Don't. I see from the photo you've got the omnibus "Cordelia's Honor". Read both the stories in it first as it sets up the rest of the series nicely. The first novel is an early one and lacks the polish she developed, the second - a direct sequel - was written much later and is better for it.

-Moriarty
Bice
2020-03-02 13:07:46 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 12:45:42 -0800 (PST), Moriarty
Post by Moriarty
Post by Bice
I was going to go with the internal chronological order listed on the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga#Works
That means you'll read "Falling Free" first. Don't.
Too late. I'm already on page 176. And enjoying it for the most part
so far. It's certainly not putting me off reading the rest of the
series.

-- Bob
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Lynn McGuire
2020-03-03 02:44:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bice
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 12:45:42 -0800 (PST), Moriarty
Post by Moriarty
Post by Bice
I was going to go with the internal chronological order listed on the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga#Works
That means you'll read "Falling Free" first. Don't.
Too late. I'm already on page 176. And enjoying it for the most part
so far. It's certainly not putting me off reading the rest of the
series.
-- Bob
"Falling Free" is a good story. And a warning against genetic
manipulation. It is part of the same universe as the Vorkosigan saga
but precedes it by several hundred years.

Lynn
-dsr-
2020-03-05 12:56:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Bice
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 12:45:42 -0800 (PST), Moriarty
Post by Moriarty
Post by Bice
I was going to go with the internal chronological order listed on the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga#Works
That means you'll read "Falling Free" first. Don't.
Too late. I'm already on page 176. And enjoying it for the most part
so far. It's certainly not putting me off reading the rest of the
series.
-- Bob
"Falling Free" is a good story. And a warning against genetic
manipulation. It is part of the same universe as the Vorkosigan saga
but precedes it by several hundred years.
No, it's a warning against treating people like objects.

-dsr-
Robert Woodward
2020-03-05 17:56:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by -dsr-
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Bice
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 12:45:42 -0800 (PST), Moriarty
Post by Moriarty
Post by Bice
I was going to go with the internal chronological order listed on the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga#Works
That means you'll read "Falling Free" first. Don't.
Too late. I'm already on page 176. And enjoying it for the most part
so far. It's certainly not putting me off reading the rest of the
series.
-- Bob
"Falling Free" is a good story. And a warning against genetic
manipulation. It is part of the same universe as the Vorkosigan saga
but precedes it by several hundred years.
No, it's a warning against treating people like objects.
Back in the early days of the Bujold mailing list, some naive soul
objected to the unrealistic nature of Bruce van Atta. Somebody replied
"Brucie was my boss."
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Michael F. Stemper
2020-03-05 19:33:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by -dsr-
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Bice
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 12:45:42 -0800 (PST), Moriarty
Post by Moriarty
Post by Bice
I was going to go with the internal chronological order listed on the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga#Works
That means you'll read "Falling Free" first. Don't.
Too late. I'm already on page 176. And enjoying it for the most part
so far. It's certainly not putting me off reading the rest of the
series.
"Falling Free" is a good story. And a warning against genetic
manipulation. It is part of the same universe as the Vorkosigan saga
but precedes it by several hundred years.
No, it's a warning against treating people like objects.
No, it's a retelling of _Exodus_.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Zechariah 7:10
Lynn McGuire
2020-03-05 20:17:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by -dsr-
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Bice
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 12:45:42 -0800 (PST), Moriarty
Post by Moriarty
Post by Bice
I was going to go with the internal chronological order listed on the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga#Works
That means you'll read "Falling Free" first. Don't.
Too late. I'm already on page 176. And enjoying it for the most part
so far. It's certainly not putting me off reading the rest of the
series.
"Falling Free" is a good story. And a warning against genetic
manipulation. It is part of the same universe as the Vorkosigan saga
but precedes it by several hundred years.
No, it's a warning against treating people like objects.
No, it's a retelling of _Exodus_.
+1

Lynn
Titus G
2020-02-28 21:15:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Hershberger
Post by Bice
I'm mostly just a lurker here, but I've mentioned a couple times that
I'm working on reading all the Hugo winning novels in chronological
order. Well, I'm up to the early 90s and just finished the Hyperion
series, so next up is the Vorkosigan saga. Since the series includes
three Hugo winners and because of the massive amounts of praise I've
seen for it on this newsgroup, I've decided to read the whole saga.
Here's a nice picture of all the paperbacks and hardcovers lined up on
http://eichler.byethost11.com/books/Hugo/VorkosiganSaga.jpg
Despite being a fairly avid science fiction reader in the late 80s and
early 90s, I somehow never read anything from this series. Possibly
because if I ever did run across any of the books in stores, I might
have assumed that they were romance novels based on the cover art.
Why does Baen have so many covers that I'd be embarrased to be seen
reading in public?
Anyway, did you ever have that feeling of "I wish I could read that
again for the first time?" Well, that's where I'm at with the
Vorkosigan books. If it turns out that I don't like them, I'm holding
the newsgroup responsible...
-- Bob
Be aware that getting up and running with this series is a bit awkward. There are various possible reading orders. Picking one at random and diving in is probably not the best, as the characters', um, characters matter in this series more than they do in many. They grow up over the course of the series. So why not just start at the beginning and go forward? This is not entirely straightfoward. For one thing, Bujold did not write them in strict chronological order. They don't jump around entirely willy-nilly, but she sometimes went back and wrote books set earlier on. So you need to decide what exactly "start at the beginning and go forward" means. The kicker is that Bujold's writing improved over the course of the series. The characters aren't the only ones growing. Reading them in the order they were written is a perfectly reasonable approach. I would probably say it is the best way to go. But you need to go into the project accepting that the earlier writing can be a bit rough at times, and requires a high tolerance for coincidence-driven plots. But by no means should you let this stop you. Indeed, it provides the added pleasure of seeing the author grow.
Richard Hershberger
Perhaps if I had read this earlier I would have read more of the V series.
The Curse of Chalion was just readable and The Warrior's Apprentice was
just OK but a bit too silly so I didn't continue with either series.
However, I rated the novella, Mountains of Mourning, 4 stars and I have
a copy of number 10 in the V saga, Memory, to read, reco
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2020-02-28 21:50:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Perhaps if I had read this earlier I would have read more of the V series.
The Curse of Chalion was just readable and The Warrior's Apprentice was
just OK but a bit too silly so I didn't continue with either series.
However, I rated the novella, Mountains of Mourning, 4 stars and I have
a copy of number 10 in the V saga, Memory, to read, recommended here as
the best in the series.
It arguably is, but it has best effect if you have more grounding from earlier
books.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
Sent from my Sinclair ZX-81
t***@gmail.com
2020-02-29 19:05:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Richard Hershberger
Post by Bice
I'm mostly just a lurker here, but I've mentioned a couple times that
I'm working on reading all the Hugo winning novels in chronological
order. Well, I'm up to the early 90s and just finished the Hyperion
series, so next up is the Vorkosigan saga. Since the series includes
three Hugo winners and because of the massive amounts of praise I've
seen for it on this newsgroup, I've decided to read the whole saga.
Here's a nice picture of all the paperbacks and hardcovers lined up on
http://eichler.byethost11.com/books/Hugo/VorkosiganSaga.jpg
Despite being a fairly avid science fiction reader in the late 80s and
early 90s, I somehow never read anything from this series. Possibly
because if I ever did run across any of the books in stores, I might
have assumed that they were romance novels based on the cover art.
Why does Baen have so many covers that I'd be embarrased to be seen
reading in public?
Anyway, did you ever have that feeling of "I wish I could read that
again for the first time?" Well, that's where I'm at with the
Vorkosigan books. If it turns out that I don't like them, I'm holding
the newsgroup responsible...
-- Bob
Be aware that getting up and running with this series is a bit awkward. There are various possible reading orders. Picking one at random and diving in is probably not the best, as the characters', um, characters matter in this series more than they do in many. They grow up over the course of the series. So why not just start at the beginning and go forward? This is not entirely straightfoward. For one thing, Bujold did not write them in strict chronological order. They don't jump around entirely willy-nilly, but she sometimes went back and wrote books set earlier on. So you need to decide what exactly "start at the beginning and go forward" means. The kicker is that Bujold's writing improved over the course of the series. The characters aren't the only ones growing. Reading them in the order they were written is a perfectly reasonable approach. I would probably say it is the best way to go. But you need to go into the project accepting that the earlier writing can be a bit rough at times, and requires a high tolerance for coincidence-driven plots. But by no means should you let this stop you. Indeed, it provides the added pleasure of seeing the author grow.
Richard Hershberger
Perhaps if I had read this earlier I would have read more of the V series.
The Curse of Chalion was just readable and The Warrior's Apprentice was
just OK but a bit too silly so I didn't continue with either series.
However, I rated the novella, Mountains of Mourning, 4 stars and I have
a copy of number 10 in the V saga, Memory, to read, recommended here as
the best in the series.
Just asking for clarification because I'm curious:
Did you mean The Curse of Chalion, which is not in the V series, or were
you thinking about a different V series book?

Tony
Titus G
2020-03-01 00:55:18 UTC
Permalink
snip
Post by t***@gmail.com
Perhaps if I had read this earlier I would have read more of the V series..
The Curse of Chalion was just readable and The Warrior's Apprentice was
just OK but a bit too silly so I didn't continue with either series.
However, I rated the novella, Mountains of Mourning, 4 stars and I have
a copy of number 10 in the V saga, Memory, to read, recommended here as
the best in the series.
Did you mean The Curse of Chalion, which is not in the V series, or were
you thinking about a different V series book?
Tony
I meant The Curse of Chalion, the first book from the World of the Five
Gods series. After being disappointed with The Warrior's Apprentice, I
tried another Bujold because many here recommended her and I had enjoyed
the novella as above.
p***@hotmail.com
2020-03-01 21:03:54 UTC
Permalink
Vorkosigan losing virginity: I believe that would be _Brothers in Arms_.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
David Goldfarb
2020-03-03 06:11:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Vorkosigan losing virginity: I believe that would be _Brothers in Arms_.
Well, no. Miles has sex in "Labyrinth", which is earlier in the
chronology, and I don't think there's much reason to believe that
was his first time either.
--
David Goldfarb |From the fortune cookie file:
***@gmail.com |"Do not put so much sugar in your coffee, or
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | he will think you extravagant."
Lynn McGuire
2020-03-05 20:19:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Vorkosigan losing virginity: I believe that would be _Brothers in Arms_.
Well, no. Miles has sex in "Labyrinth", which is earlier in the
chronology, and I don't think there's much reason to believe that
was his first time either.
There was a hint of the cook's daughter when he was a teenager in one of
the books IIRC.

lynn
m***@gmail.com
2020-03-01 23:42:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bice
I'm mostly just a lurker here, but I've mentioned a couple times that
I'm working on reading all the Hugo winning novels in chronological
order. Well, I'm up to the early 90s and just finished the Hyperion
series, so next up is the Vorkosigan saga. Since the series includes
three Hugo winners and because of the massive amounts of praise I've
seen for it on this newsgroup, I've decided to read the whole saga.
Here's a nice picture of all the paperbacks and hardcovers lined up on
http://eichler.byethost11.com/books/Hugo/VorkosiganSaga.jpg
Despite being a fairly avid science fiction reader in the late 80s and
early 90s, I somehow never read anything from this series. Possibly
because if I ever did run across any of the books in stores, I might
have assumed that they were romance novels based on the cover art.
Why does Baen have so many covers that I'd be embarrased to be seen
reading in public?
Anyway, did you ever have that feeling of "I wish I could read that
again for the first time?" Well, that's where I'm at with the
Vorkosigan books. If it turns out that I don't like them, I'm holding
the newsgroup responsible...
-- Bob
I didn't start reading them for years even with lots of positive talk here (and she was from my hometown) because I thought the Vorkosigan series was just military SF! I picked up Borders of Infinity and read the title story first. That made me a convert immediately. I believe this was in the early '90s as I remember buying Mirror Dance in hardcover and later the madness that was the run-up to the release of A Civil Campaign in 1999.
Michael F. Stemper
2020-03-02 22:42:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bice
http://eichler.byethost11.com/books/Hugo/VorkosiganSaga.jpg
Despite being a fairly avid science fiction reader in the late 80s and
early 90s, I somehow never read anything from this series. Possibly
because if I ever did run across any of the books in stores, I might
I'm rather jealous that you're about to read these for the first
time. You have a real treat in store!

My first time was in December '93 and January '94, when there were
only 8 books (as near as I can tell). And I read them in order of
internal chronology, starting with _Falling Free_.

I will agree that these novels are outside of the main arc and may
be skipped on the first run-through:
- _Falling Free_
- _Ethan of Athos_
- _Cetaganda_
Post by Bice
have assumed that they were romance novels based on the cover art.
Why does Baen have so many covers that I'd be embarrased to be seen
reading in public?
What's funny is that they usually get beat up for having cover art
that's too combative/militaristic.
--
Michael F. Stemper
2 Chronicles 19:7
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