Discussion:
[wfc] Wicked Fox (Gumiho, book 1) by Kat Cho
(too old to reply)
James Nicoll
2019-12-23 15:09:47 UTC
Permalink
Wicked Fox (Gumiho, book 1) by Kat Cho

https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/fools-rush-in
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Joe Bernstein
2019-12-23 20:38:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Wicked Fox (Gumiho, book 1) by Kat Cho
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/fools-rush-in
Thanks for the tip.

Of what you've described, the energy bead is attested by folklore,
but the control via it is not. Human-gumiho interbreeding is not,
though it's a pretty obvious outcome of traditional stories.
Draining the life force is a good approximation. Cho seems to be
playing her monster reasonably straight, at least on your showing.

I have access to the book and will read it.

-- JLB
James Nicoll
2019-12-23 21:10:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by James Nicoll
Wicked Fox (Gumiho, book 1) by Kat Cho
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/fools-rush-in
Thanks for the tip.
Of what you've described, the energy bead is attested by folklore,
but the control via it is not. Human-gumiho interbreeding is not,
though it's a pretty obvious outcome of traditional stories.
Draining the life force is a good approximation.
Different terminology is used in the book but I didn't feel like inserting
an explanation.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Joe Bernstein
2019-12-24 00:40:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by James Nicoll
Wicked Fox (Gumiho, book 1) by Kat Cho
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/fools-rush-in
Thanks for the tip.
Of what you've described, the energy bead is attested by folklore,
but the control via it is not. Human-gumiho interbreeding is not,
though it's a pretty obvious outcome of traditional stories.
Draining the life force is a good approximation.
Different terminology is used in the book but I didn't feel like
inserting an explanation.
I assume there you're referring specifically to "draining the life
force". Without actually going back to the story, I don't remember
the relevant story that way, but it's a reasonable description of
what the gumiho does, which, as best I remember, doesn't get a
specific name.

The stereotypical picture of gumihos - the one dramas more usually
react against than follow - is that they eat human livers, possibly
in the expectation that if they eat enough of them they can become
human themselves. In the story I'm thinking of, the gumiho mass
murders the students at a school, but nothing as bloody as eating
their livers. She is, however, under the same impression - a hundred
will get her to her goal - and conveniently enough the school had
exactly a hundred students. (Unfortunately for her, the story's
protagonist played dead, then follows her and, I think by slaying her,
acquires her energy bead.)

Some agency or other of the South Korean government has maintained a
sort of folklore collection online, in English, mind. Let's see if I
can dig it up at this crippled computer... Yeah, here we go. The
site as a whole is mildly annoying to navigate, but has actual
stories as well as the summaries such as in this page:

<http://folkency.nfm.go.kr/en/topic/detail/5909>

The story I'm thinking of is the one summarised in the paragraph that
begins "The second type". In the summary she kisses the students; I
guess that's a specific name, but doesn't really convey what results.

Joe Bernstein

PS In actual Korean folklore books, tigers are *far* more numerous
than gumihos. Tigers come in many flavours, from ordinary animals
to intelligent and language-capable rulers of vast realms which may
or may not be compatible with human life. I'm not sure why tigers
have so decisively lost to foxes in modern popular culture.
--
Joe Bernstein <***@gmail.com>
Magewolf
2019-12-24 17:52:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by James Nicoll
Wicked Fox (Gumiho, book 1) by Kat Cho
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/fools-rush-in
Thanks for the tip.
Of what you've described, the energy bead is attested by folklore,
but the control via it is not. Human-gumiho interbreeding is not,
though it's a pretty obvious outcome of traditional stories.
Draining the life force is a good approximation.
Different terminology is used in the book but I didn't feel like
inserting an explanation.
I assume there you're referring specifically to "draining the life
force". Without actually going back to the story, I don't remember
the relevant story that way, but it's a reasonable description of
what the gumiho does, which, as best I remember, doesn't get a
specific name.
The stereotypical picture of gumihos - the one dramas more usually
react against than follow - is that they eat human livers, possibly
in the expectation that if they eat enough of them they can become
human themselves. In the story I'm thinking of, the gumiho mass
murders the students at a school, but nothing as bloody as eating
their livers. She is, however, under the same impression - a hundred
will get her to her goal - and conveniently enough the school had
exactly a hundred students. (Unfortunately for her, the story's
protagonist played dead, then follows her and, I think by slaying her,
acquires her energy bead.)
Some agency or other of the South Korean government has maintained a
sort of folklore collection online, in English, mind. Let's see if I
can dig it up at this crippled computer... Yeah, here we go. The
site as a whole is mildly annoying to navigate, but has actual
<http://folkency.nfm.go.kr/en/topic/detail/5909>
The story I'm thinking of is the one summarised in the paragraph that
begins "The second type". In the summary she kisses the students; I
guess that's a specific name, but doesn't really convey what results.
Joe Bernstein
PS In actual Korean folklore books, tigers are *far* more numerous
than gumihos. Tigers come in many flavours, from ordinary animals
to intelligent and language-capable rulers of vast realms which may
or may not be compatible with human life. I'm not sure why tigers
have so decisively lost to foxes in modern popular culture.
Foxes are cuter?
Kevrob
2019-12-24 18:00:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Magewolf
Post by Joe Bernstein
PS In actual Korean folklore books, tigers are *far* more numerous
than gumihos. Tigers come in many flavours, from ordinary animals
to intelligent and language-capable rulers of vast realms which may
or may not be compatible with human life. I'm not sure why tigers
have so decisively lost to foxes in modern popular culture.
Foxes are cuter?
They survive better in urban settings?

Kevin R
Carl Fink
2019-12-24 22:50:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Magewolf
Post by Joe Bernstein
PS In actual Korean folklore books, tigers are *far* more numerous
than gumihos. Tigers come in many flavours, from ordinary animals
to intelligent and language-capable rulers of vast realms which may
or may not be compatible with human life. I'm not sure why tigers
have so decisively lost to foxes in modern popular culture.
Foxes are cuter?
They survive better in urban settings?
They still exist in countries Westerners live in? I've seen a fox here on
Long Island, not so much tigers (or panthers, which used to be native).
--
Carl Fink ***@finknetwork.com
https://reasonablyliterate.com https://nitpicking.com
If you want to make a point, somebody will take the point and stab you with it.
-Kenne Estes
Kevrob
2019-12-25 04:48:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Magewolf
Post by Joe Bernstein
PS In actual Korean folklore books, tigers are *far* more numerous
than gumihos. Tigers come in many flavours, from ordinary animals
to intelligent and language-capable rulers of vast realms which may
or may not be compatible with human life. I'm not sure why tigers
have so decisively lost to foxes in modern popular culture.
Foxes are cuter?
They survive better in urban settings?
They still exist in countries Westerners live in? I've seen a fox here on
Long Island, not so much tigers (or panthers, which used to be native).
--
Across the Sound in CT, we see all kinds of potential and actual
road kill: from voles to whitetail deer. There's enough green
space left, from groundwater catchment areas, to parks and farms,
not to mention small woodlots in residential neighborhoods. My
route to work the past few years paralleled the Housatonic River.*
I regularly see dead possum, skunk, and other small critters. I
see live ones, too. The weird screech of the fisher is heard.

[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_(animal) ....
....in the weasel family. ]

* Housatonic, Miskatonic, rah! rah! rah! would be a good chant
for the Fighting Cephalopods, IMNSHO. Did they get a bid to the
Shoggoth Bowl?

Kevin R
J. Clarke
2019-12-25 05:19:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Magewolf
Post by Joe Bernstein
PS In actual Korean folklore books, tigers are *far* more numerous
than gumihos. Tigers come in many flavours, from ordinary animals
to intelligent and language-capable rulers of vast realms which may
or may not be compatible with human life. I'm not sure why tigers
have so decisively lost to foxes in modern popular culture.
Foxes are cuter?
They survive better in urban settings?
They still exist in countries Westerners live in? I've seen a fox here on
Long Island, not so much tigers (or panthers, which used to be native).
--
Across the Sound in CT, we see all kinds of potential and actual
road kill: from voles to whitetail deer. There's enough green
space left, from groundwater catchment areas, to parks and farms,
not to mention small woodlots in residential neighborhoods. My
route to work the past few years paralleled the Housatonic River.*
I regularly see dead possum, skunk, and other small critters. I
see live ones, too. The weird screech of the fisher is heard.
[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_(animal) ....
....in the weasel family. ]
* Housatonic, Miskatonic, rah! rah! rah! would be a good chant
for the Fighting Cephalopods, IMNSHO. Did they get a bid to the
Shoggoth Bowl?
I hit an owl once in suburban CT--did 1500 bucks worth of damage to a
Jeep--big birds. Of course it was at night--came zooming out of
nowhere at high speed--never found the owl--I hope it was a clean
kill.

One time a turkey flew over the car and landed in front of me. Those
things are huge--when it was flying in front of the car all I could
see was wings--slammed on the brakes because I couldn't see anything
else--the turkey lived.

Skunks are common road kill. Also raccoons and the occasional
opossum. I haven't personally hit a deer (watch, now that I've said
that I'll hit one tomorrow) but I've seen them eating out of the
dumpsters at the shopping mall.
Kevrob
2019-12-25 12:53:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Kevrob
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Magewolf
Post by Joe Bernstein
PS In actual Korean folklore books, tigers are *far* more numerous
than gumihos. Tigers come in many flavours, from ordinary animals
to intelligent and language-capable rulers of vast realms which may
or may not be compatible with human life. I'm not sure why tigers
have so decisively lost to foxes in modern popular culture.
Foxes are cuter?
They survive better in urban settings?
They still exist in countries Westerners live in? I've seen a fox here on
Long Island, not so much tigers (or panthers, which used to be native).
--
Across the Sound in CT, we see all kinds of potential and actual
road kill: from voles to whitetail deer. There's enough green
space left, from groundwater catchment areas, to parks and farms,
not to mention small woodlots in residential neighborhoods. My
route to work the past few years paralleled the Housatonic River.*
I regularly see dead possum, skunk, and other small critters. I
see live ones, too. The weird screech of the fisher is heard.
[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_(animal) ....
....in the weasel family. ]
* Housatonic, Miskatonic, rah! rah! rah! would be a good chant
for the Fighting Cephalopods, IMNSHO. Did they get a bid to the
Shoggoth Bowl?
I hit an owl once in suburban CT--did 1500 bucks worth of damage to a
Jeep--big birds. Of course it was at night--came zooming out of
nowhere at high speed--never found the owl--I hope it was a clean
kill.
One time a turkey flew over the car and landed in front of me. Those
things are huge--when it was flying in front of the car all I could
see was wings--slammed on the brakes because I couldn't see anything
else--the turkey lived.
Skunks are common road kill. Also raccoons and the occasional
opossum. I haven't personally hit a deer (watch, now that I've said
that I'll hit one tomorrow) but I've seen them eating out of the
dumpsters at the shopping mall.
I used to live in a neighborhood several hundred feet above
the Housatonic, near several farms, a watershed area and a
town park. Turkey vultures, or buzzards, were able to make
a living in those hills, between all the various roadkill candidates.
There were owls up there, too. They hunted by night, while the
vultures rode the thermals by day.

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-12-25 15:53:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
One time a turkey flew over the car and landed in front of me. Those
things are huge--when it was flying in front of the car all I could
see was wings--slammed on the brakes because I couldn't see anything
else--the turkey lived.
There are at least three "wild" turkeys hanging around in the
Gill Tract, all that remains of the agricultural land that used
to be the province of the University of California Department of
Agriculture, back when the only Campus of the University was the
one in Berkeley. (The Department later moved to the Davis
Campus.) It's now a community garden, and I'm sure the turkeys
get along fine there ... except when they wander out of the
garden onto an intersection between a freeway exit and one of the
major north-south streets. Then all the drivers have to proceed
with extreme caution not to hit them, because they are ...
turkeys, with all that that implies.
Post by J. Clarke
Skunks are common road kill. Also raccoons and the occasional
opossum. I haven't personally hit a deer (watch, now that I've said
that I'll hit one tomorrow) but I've seen them eating out of the
dumpsters at the shopping mall.
About a month ago someone on our (strictly residential) street
ran over a squirrel. I know this because we encountered a
vulture standing in the middle of the street (about twenty feet
north of our house) eating it. An occasional car came by and
carefully drove past it, but after the third or fourth the
vulture apparently decided there was too much traffic and picked
up its lunch in its beak and flew off to the nearest front yard.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
J. Clarke
2019-12-25 17:04:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
One time a turkey flew over the car and landed in front of me. Those
things are huge--when it was flying in front of the car all I could
see was wings--slammed on the brakes because I couldn't see anything
else--the turkey lived.
There are at least three "wild" turkeys hanging around in the
Gill Tract, all that remains of the agricultural land that used
to be the province of the University of California Department of
Agriculture, back when the only Campus of the University was the
one in Berkeley. (The Department later moved to the Davis
Campus.) It's now a community garden, and I'm sure the turkeys
get along fine there ... except when they wander out of the
garden onto an intersection between a freeway exit and one of the
major north-south streets. Then all the drivers have to proceed
with extreme caution not to hit them, because they are ...
turkeys, with all that that implies.
Post by J. Clarke
Skunks are common road kill. Also raccoons and the occasional
opossum. I haven't personally hit a deer (watch, now that I've said
that I'll hit one tomorrow) but I've seen them eating out of the
dumpsters at the shopping mall.
About a month ago someone on our (strictly residential) street
ran over a squirrel. I know this because we encountered a
vulture standing in the middle of the street (about twenty feet
north of our house) eating it. An occasional car came by and
carefully drove past it, but after the third or fourth the
vulture apparently decided there was too much traffic and picked
up its lunch in its beak and flew off to the nearest front yard.
I haven't seen any turkey vultures recently--generally if there's
something picking at a road kill it will be a crow. Did see a
red-tailed hawk the other day.
Joe Bernstein
2020-01-07 03:30:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Magewolf
Post by Joe Bernstein
PS In actual Korean folklore books, tigers are *far* more numerous
than gumihos. Tigers come in many flavours, from ordinary animals
to intelligent and language-capable rulers of vast realms which may
or may not be compatible with human life. I'm not sure why tigers
have so decisively lost to foxes in modern popular culture.
Foxes are cuter?
I *was* going to say that it's definitely a win for gumihos that
they're always female, whereas tigers are almost always male, in
folkore that is, but waitaminute, dramas are mostly aimed at women
these days, and the gumihos in them, at least, are of both sexes. So
that doesn't work...
Post by Kevrob
They survive better in urban settings?
This is more plausible.

It's said that there are so many tigers kept as pets that in the
crash of civilisation the species would easily establish itself in
North America. E.g. by Stirling in the <Dies the Fire> sequence.
This should imply already existing escaped tigers in our reality,
but this thread hasn't turned up any stories of them. This page:

<https://www.whyanimalsdothething.com/more-tigers-in-texas>

says, with copious references, that actual tiger populations in the
US and claims about tiger populations in the US have followed
opposite trajectories since about 2000: the actual has declined, and
is now around 2,300, but the claims have boomed, up to around 10,000.

Would 2,300 tigers be enough to establish a species, given that wild
tigers never historically lived here?

Tigers did historically live in Korea, but they were wiped out long
ago; this page:

<https://bigcatrescue.org/tigers-of-korea-100-years-ago/>

says the last one in what is now *South* Korea was killed in 1922;
other sites say 1944. (Either way, Korean nationalists are happy to
blame the Japanese.) The *population* survives; turns out Korean
tigers are the same as Siberian tigers. And some apparently still
live in North Korea's mountains, but the centre of population has
shifted way north. This page, while not referenced, claims the
Siberian tiger population went as low as 40; this implies that the
2,000-odd tigers in the US could produce a viable population:

<https://www.expertsure.com/2008/11/24/korean-tigers-back-from-the-brink-of-extinction-but-not-in-south-korea/>

This page says reintroduction is unlikely in the short term, but may
become possible with the simultaneous decreased total population, and
even more decreased rural population, in South Korea, in coming
decades:

<https://www.koreaexpose.com/search-korean-tiger/>

while the title of this page implies something nearer, but it's so
dedicated to its cookie warning that I can't read the article. (I
refuse on principle to click on those damn cookie warnings; this is
the first time a site has refused to show me anything until I did.)

<https://asiancorrespondent.com/2018/04/south-korea-to-open-asias-largest-tiger-forest/>

and here we find very small scale reintroductions already happening:

<http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20170628000246>
<http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/780483.html>
<http://koreabizwire.com/national-arboretum-welcomes-new-siberian-tigers/137870>

So yeah, foxes are obviously doing better - but wait a minute. We
haven't seen coyotes overtake wolves in American folklore, have we?
I mean, yes, Coyote as a symbol of diversity and all, but werewolves,
fercrineoutloud. OTOH, maybe South Korea is more urbanised than the
US, and that's the difference.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_South_Korea> says as
of 2016 South Korea was 82.59% urbanised. But
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States>
says as of some unspecified date the US was 82.3% cities and suburbs.
Somehow I doubt the South Korean number excludes suburbs.

So I think the catastrophic decline of the Korean folklore tiger
remains unexplained. Maybe it's guilt over the catastrophic decline
of the Korean actual tiger?

Joe Bernstein
--
Joe Bernstein <***@gmail.com>
J. Clarke
2020-01-07 04:06:37 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 7 Jan 2020 03:30:16 -0000 (UTC), Joe Bernstein
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by Kevrob
Post by Magewolf
Post by Joe Bernstein
PS In actual Korean folklore books, tigers are *far* more numerous
than gumihos. Tigers come in many flavours, from ordinary animals
to intelligent and language-capable rulers of vast realms which may
or may not be compatible with human life. I'm not sure why tigers
have so decisively lost to foxes in modern popular culture.
Foxes are cuter?
I *was* going to say that it's definitely a win for gumihos that
they're always female, whereas tigers are almost always male, in
folkore that is, but waitaminute, dramas are mostly aimed at women
these days, and the gumihos in them, at least, are of both sexes. So
that doesn't work...
Post by Kevrob
They survive better in urban settings?
This is more plausible.
It's said that there are so many tigers kept as pets that in the
crash of civilisation the species would easily establish itself in
North America. E.g. by Stirling in the <Dies the Fire> sequence.
This should imply already existing escaped tigers in our reality,
<https://www.whyanimalsdothething.com/more-tigers-in-texas>
says, with copious references, that actual tiger populations in the
US and claims about tiger populations in the US have followed
opposite trajectories since about 2000: the actual has declined, and
is now around 2,300, but the claims have boomed, up to around 10,000.
Would 2,300 tigers be enough to establish a species, given that wild
tigers never historically lived here?
Tigers did historically live in Korea, but they were wiped out long
<https://bigcatrescue.org/tigers-of-korea-100-years-ago/>
says the last one in what is now *South* Korea was killed in 1922;
other sites say 1944. (Either way, Korean nationalists are happy to
blame the Japanese.) The *population* survives; turns out Korean
tigers are the same as Siberian tigers. And some apparently still
live in North Korea's mountains, but the centre of population has
shifted way north. This page, while not referenced, claims the
Siberian tiger population went as low as 40; this implies that the
<https://www.expertsure.com/2008/11/24/korean-tigers-back-from-the-brink-of-extinction-but-not-in-south-korea/>
This page says reintroduction is unlikely in the short term, but may
become possible with the simultaneous decreased total population, and
even more decreased rural population, in South Korea, in coming
<https://www.koreaexpose.com/search-korean-tiger/>
while the title of this page implies something nearer, but it's so
dedicated to its cookie warning that I can't read the article. (I
refuse on principle to click on those damn cookie warnings; this is
the first time a site has refused to show me anything until I did.)
<https://asiancorrespondent.com/2018/04/south-korea-to-open-asias-largest-tiger-forest/>
<http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20170628000246>
<http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/780483.html>
<http://koreabizwire.com/national-arboretum-welcomes-new-siberian-tigers/137870>
So yeah, foxes are obviously doing better - but wait a minute. We
haven't seen coyotes overtake wolves in American folklore, have we?
I mean, yes, Coyote as a symbol of diversity and all, but werewolves,
fercrineoutloud. OTOH, maybe South Korea is more urbanised than the
US, and that's the difference.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_South_Korea> says as
of 2016 South Korea was 82.59% urbanised. But
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States>
says as of some unspecified date the US was 82.3% cities and suburbs.
Somehow I doubt the South Korean number excludes suburbs.
So I think the catastrophic decline of the Korean folklore tiger
remains unexplained. Maybe it's guilt over the catastrophic decline
of the Korean actual tiger?
Methinks the people of Colombia should be happy that their pet drug
lord liked hippos instead of cats. His hippos seem to be thriving in
the wild--estimated to be 80 now up from 4, and hippos, dangerous as
they are, don't look at you and think "lunch". Of course there's not
much in Colombia other than humans that's up to messing with hippos or
tigers.
James Nicoll
2020-01-07 04:32:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Bernstein
says, with copious references, that actual tiger populations in the
US and claims about tiger populations in the US have followed
opposite trajectories since about 2000: the actual has declined, and
is now around 2,300, but the claims have boomed, up to around 10,000.
Would 2,300 tigers be enough to establish a species, given that wild
tigers never historically lived here?
That's more than the lowest population cheetahs are thought to have had,
I think. The issue might be giving the tigers access to each other, locked
up as they are.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2020-01-07 13:10:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Joe Bernstein
says, with copious references, that actual tiger populations in the
US and claims about tiger populations in the US have followed
opposite trajectories since about 2000: the actual has declined, and
is now around 2,300, but the claims have boomed, up to around 10,000.
Would 2,300 tigers be enough to establish a species, given that wild
tigers never historically lived here?
That's more than the lowest population cheetahs are thought to have had,
I think.
Currently modelled to be six or seven individuals, I understand. Genetic
variation of cheetahs is still very low.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
Paul S Person
2020-01-07 17:57:09 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 7 Jan 2020 03:30:16 -0000 (UTC), Joe Bernstein
Post by Joe Bernstein
while the title of this page implies something nearer, but it's so
dedicated to its cookie warning that I can't read the article. (I
refuse on principle to click on those damn cookie warnings; this is
the first time a site has refused to show me anything until I did.)
<https://asiancorrespondent.com/2018/04/south-korea-to-open-asias-largest-tiger-forest/>
I, also, don't normally click on them; but a site I was looking at for
information was so aggressive I did -- and got a box which /would not
dismiss even after I clicked on and read the Terms of Engagement (or
whatever they were called)/.

So a large part of the page was obscured even when I clicked "OK".

Now, /that's/ aggressive!
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Joe Bernstein
2020-01-13 03:48:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by Joe Bernstein
PS In actual Korean folklore books, tigers are *far* more numerous
than gumihos. Tigers come in many flavours, from ordinary animals
to intelligent and language-capable rulers of vast realms which
may or may not be compatible with human life. I'm not sure why
tigers have so decisively lost to foxes in modern popular culture.
They [foxes, that is] survive better in urban settings?
This is more plausible.
[Various noodling about tigers in North America and Korea.]
Post by Joe Bernstein
So I think the catastrophic decline of the Korean folklore tiger
remains unexplained.
I've thought of an explanation. Gumihos are fairly obviously images
of the scary Woman. Well, tigers are, sez me, images of the scary
Aristocrat. With the decline of the aristocracy, more importantly
with its removal from day-to-day contact with the people, they've
lost their referent.

Ordinary animal tigers (that want to eat you) - unreasoning brutal
aristocrats.

Tigers who lead robber bands - cunning, wicked aristocrats.

Intelligent, talking tigers who rule vast, inimical realms -
reforming aristocrats.

Etc.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangban>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaebol>

In contrast, with the increased inter-sex conflict following the 1997
IMF "reforms", scary Women are more in demand than ever, hence the
rise of the gumiho.

Joe Bernstein
--
Joe Bernstein <***@gmail.com>
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-01-13 05:16:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by Joe Bernstein
PS In actual Korean folklore books, tigers are *far* more numerous
than gumihos. Tigers come in many flavours, from ordinary animals
to intelligent and language-capable rulers of vast realms which
may or may not be compatible with human life. I'm not sure why
tigers have so decisively lost to foxes in modern popular culture.
They [foxes, that is] survive better in urban settings?
This is more plausible.
I have some intelligent foxes in my WIP. No tigers, though,
sorry; wrong continent for them.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
David DeLaney
2020-01-15 11:42:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Bernstein
Ordinary animal tigers (that want to eat you) - unreasoning brutal
aristocrats.
Tigers who lead robber bands - cunning, wicked aristocrats.
Intelligent, talking tigers who rule vast, inimical realms -
reforming aristocrats.
ObSF: Tigers who constantly gripe about how Hungry they are, and how much
they'd enjoy the sweet sweet taste of a hu-man baby, but never actually indulge
themselves on such, and who accompany you all over the magical land you reside
in on Adventures - Bertie Wooster.

Dave, tigers that have starships and seemingly unintelligent females - the
eeevil aristocrats in the next city-state over
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
p***@hotmail.com
2020-01-14 18:26:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Bernstein
snip
So yeah, foxes are obviously doing better - but wait a minute. We
haven't seen coyotes overtake wolves in American folklore, have we?
I mean, yes, Coyote as a symbol of diversity and all, but werewolves,
fercrineoutloud. OTOH, maybe South Korea is more urbanised than the
US, and that's the difference.
Poul Anderson pointed out in his story _Operation Afreet_, later incorporated
into the novel _Operation Chaos_, that the law of conservation of mass
requires that a were-beast have the same mass as the person that transforms
into it. Wolves are a pretty good match for humans in this respect, weighing
up to 180 pounds. In contrast, the biggest coyote ever measured was 75 pounds,
with 30-50 pounds typical. Thus, coyotes really can't very well replace wolves
in unban fantasy.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2020-01-14 18:32:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Joe Bernstein
snip
So yeah, foxes are obviously doing better - but wait a minute. We
haven't seen coyotes overtake wolves in American folklore, have we?
I mean, yes, Coyote as a symbol of diversity and all, but werewolves,
fercrineoutloud. OTOH, maybe South Korea is more urbanised than the
US, and that's the difference.
Poul Anderson pointed out in his story _Operation Afreet_, later incorporated
into the novel _Operation Chaos_, that the law of conservation of mass
requires that a were-beast have the same mass as the person that transforms
into it. Wolves are a pretty good match for humans in this respect, weighing
up to 180 pounds. In contrast, the biggest coyote ever measured was 75 pounds,
with 30-50 pounds typical. Thus, coyotes really can't very well replace wolves
in unban fantasy.
And were-ticks are right out!
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
James Nicoll
2020-01-14 18:46:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Joe Bernstein
snip
So yeah, foxes are obviously doing better - but wait a minute. We
haven't seen coyotes overtake wolves in American folklore, have we?
I mean, yes, Coyote as a symbol of diversity and all, but werewolves,
fercrineoutloud. OTOH, maybe South Korea is more urbanised than the
US, and that's the difference.
Poul Anderson pointed out in his story _Operation Afreet_, later incorporated
into the novel _Operation Chaos_, that the law of conservation of mass
requires that a were-beast have the same mass as the person that transforms
into it. Wolves are a pretty good match for humans in this respect, weighing
up to 180 pounds. In contrast, the biggest coyote ever measured was 75 pounds,
with 30-50 pounds typical. Thus, coyotes really can't very well replace wolves
in unban fantasy.
And were-ticks are right out!
On my list of characters to play is someone who can transform into a human
mass' worth of hummingbirds. Thousands and thousands of aggressive, hungry
birds.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-01-14 21:42:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Joe Bernstein
snip
So yeah, foxes are obviously doing better - but wait a minute. We
haven't seen coyotes overtake wolves in American folklore, have we?
I mean, yes, Coyote as a symbol of diversity and all, but werewolves,
fercrineoutloud. OTOH, maybe South Korea is more urbanised than the
US, and that's the difference.
Poul Anderson pointed out in his story _Operation Afreet_, later incorporated
into the novel _Operation Chaos_, that the law of conservation of mass
requires that a were-beast have the same mass as the person that transforms
into it. Wolves are a pretty good match for humans in this respect, weighing
up to 180 pounds. In contrast, the biggest coyote ever measured was 75 pounds,
with 30-50 pounds typical. Thus, coyotes really can't very well
replace wolves
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by p***@hotmail.com
in unban fantasy.
And were-ticks are right out!
On my list of characters to play is someone who can transform into a human
mass' worth of hummingbirds. Thousands and thousands of aggressive, hungry
birds.
I don't know if you've read Graydon's _Under One Banner_ yet, but
in it we meet an Independent named Crow who either manifests, or
is, a flock of various corvids: crows, ravens, several kinds of
jays, all well-endowed with attitude.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Carl Fink
2020-01-15 19:05:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Joe Bernstein
snip
So yeah, foxes are obviously doing better - but wait a minute. We
haven't seen coyotes overtake wolves in American folklore, have we?
I mean, yes, Coyote as a symbol of diversity and all, but werewolves,
fercrineoutloud. OTOH, maybe South Korea is more urbanised than the
US, and that's the difference.
Poul Anderson pointed out in his story _Operation Afreet_, later incorporated
into the novel _Operation Chaos_, that the law of conservation of mass
requires that a were-beast have the same mass as the person that transforms
into it. Wolves are a pretty good match for humans in this respect, weighing
up to 180 pounds. In contrast, the biggest coyote ever measured was 75 pounds,
with 30-50 pounds typical. Thus, coyotes really can't very well
replace wolves
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by p***@hotmail.com
in unban fantasy.
And were-ticks are right out!
On my list of characters to play is someone who can transform into a human
mass' worth of hummingbirds. Thousands and thousands of aggressive, hungry
birds.
I don't know if you've read Graydon's _Under One Banner_ yet, but
in it we meet an Independent named Crow who either manifests, or
is, a flock of various corvids: crows, ravens, several kinds of
jays, all well-endowed with attitude.
There's a character in Wild cards who can turn into a swarm of wasplike
insects, Jonathan Hive. The waspoids are green.

I read the entire story before I realized that this makes him the Green
Hornet(s).
--
Carl Fink ***@finknetwork.com
https://reasonablyliterate.com https://nitpicking.com
If you want to make a point, somebody will take the point and stab you with it.
-Kenne Estes
David DeLaney
2020-01-15 11:45:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
On my list of characters to play is someone who can transform into a human
mass' worth of hummingbirds. Thousands and thousands of aggressive, hungry
birds.
You are Graydon's powerful sorcerer Crow, and I claim a shiny object.

Dave, do the hummingbirds have to be normal-size? also see: the Worm fanfic
_Nemesis_
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-01-15 13:57:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by James Nicoll
On my list of characters to play is someone who can transform into a human
mass' worth of hummingbirds. Thousands and thousands of aggressive, hungry
birds.
You are Graydon's powerful sorcerer Crow, and I claim a shiny object.
Dave, do the hummingbirds have to be normal-size? also see: the Worm fanfic
_Nemesis_
Dunno. Crow's corvids appear to be normal-size for their various
species.

I like Crow, and the component corvids thereof. They have, as I
said upthread, attitude.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2020-01-14 19:18:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Joe Bernstein
snip
So yeah, foxes are obviously doing better - but wait a minute. We
haven't seen coyotes overtake wolves in American folklore, have we?
I mean, yes, Coyote as a symbol of diversity and all, but werewolves,
fercrineoutloud. OTOH, maybe South Korea is more urbanised than the
US, and that's the difference.
Poul Anderson pointed out in his story _Operation Afreet_, later incorporated
into the novel _Operation Chaos_, that the law of conservation of mass
requires that a were-beast have the same mass as the person that transforms
into it. Wolves are a pretty good match for humans in this respect, weighing
up to 180 pounds. In contrast, the biggest coyote ever measured was 75 pounds,
with 30-50 pounds typical. Thus, coyotes really can't very well replace wolves
in unban fantasy.
And were-ticks are right out!
IIRC, there were two problems with ticks (or, for that matter, bats):
1. The very large explosion when all that excess mass is converted to
energy.
2. The need for a large infusion of energy to change back.

And these aren't "were-" anything, at least in the standard mythology.
Were-wolves are /not/ vampires in wolf form. Vampires in wolf form are
-- wolves.

Yes, they are vicious, but then, what self-respecting wolf /isn't/
vicious?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-01-14 21:39:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Joe Bernstein
snip
So yeah, foxes are obviously doing better - but wait a minute. We
haven't seen coyotes overtake wolves in American folklore, have we?
I mean, yes, Coyote as a symbol of diversity and all, but werewolves,
fercrineoutloud. OTOH, maybe South Korea is more urbanised than the
US, and that's the difference.
Poul Anderson pointed out in his story _Operation Afreet_, later incorporated
into the novel _Operation Chaos_, that the law of conservation of mass
requires that a were-beast have the same mass as the person that transforms
into it. Wolves are a pretty good match for humans in this respect, weighing
up to 180 pounds. In contrast, the biggest coyote ever measured was 75 pounds,
with 30-50 pounds typical. Thus, coyotes really can't very well replace wolves
in unban fantasy.
And were-ticks are right out!
Thank Heaven!
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-01-14 21:39:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Joe Bernstein
snip
So yeah, foxes are obviously doing better - but wait a minute. We
haven't seen coyotes overtake wolves in American folklore, have we?
I mean, yes, Coyote as a symbol of diversity and all, but werewolves,
fercrineoutloud. OTOH, maybe South Korea is more urbanised than the
US, and that's the difference.
Poul Anderson pointed out in his story _Operation Afreet_, later incorporated
into the novel _Operation Chaos_, that the law of conservation of mass
requires that a were-beast have the same mass as the person that transforms
into it. Wolves are a pretty good match for humans in this respect, weighing
up to 180 pounds. In contrast, the biggest coyote ever measured was 75 pounds,
with 30-50 pounds typical. Thus, coyotes really can't very well replace wolves
in unban fantasy.
The enemy had a scout who was a were-fennec, who in human form
was a tiny dwarf. The shortest man ever recorded was Chandra
Bahadur Dangi, at 1 foot 9.5 inches. Alas, none of the sources I
can find give his weight. Fennecs mass 1.5 to 3.5 pounds, so the
enemy scout would have been a pretty massive fennec, just as the
hero (I'm blanking on his name) was a pretty massive wolf.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandra_Bahadur_Dangi
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
J. Clarke
2020-01-14 23:42:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Joe Bernstein
snip
So yeah, foxes are obviously doing better - but wait a minute. We
haven't seen coyotes overtake wolves in American folklore, have we?
I mean, yes, Coyote as a symbol of diversity and all, but werewolves,
fercrineoutloud. OTOH, maybe South Korea is more urbanised than the
US, and that's the difference.
Poul Anderson pointed out in his story _Operation Afreet_, later incorporated
into the novel _Operation Chaos_, that the law of conservation of mass
requires that a were-beast have the same mass as the person that transforms
into it. Wolves are a pretty good match for humans in this respect, weighing
up to 180 pounds. In contrast, the biggest coyote ever measured was 75 pounds,
with 30-50 pounds typical. Thus, coyotes really can't very well replace wolves
in unban fantasy.
The enemy had a scout who was a were-fennec, who in human form
was a tiny dwarf. The shortest man ever recorded was Chandra
Bahadur Dangi, at 1 foot 9.5 inches. Alas, none of the sources I
can find give his weight.
Googling "Chandra Bahadur Dangi weight" yielded a number of hits that
put his weight in the 30-32 pound range.

However, according to wikipedia, Lucia Zarate, 24 inches tall, weighed
4.7 pounds at age 17.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Fennecs mass 1.5 to 3.5 pounds, so the
enemy scout would have been a pretty massive fennec, just as the
hero (I'm blanking on his name) was a pretty massive wolf.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandra_Bahadur_Dangi
Robert Carnegie
2020-01-17 02:32:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Joe Bernstein
snip
So yeah, foxes are obviously doing better - but wait a minute. We
haven't seen coyotes overtake wolves in American folklore, have we?
I mean, yes, Coyote as a symbol of diversity and all, but werewolves,
fercrineoutloud. OTOH, maybe South Korea is more urbanised than the
US, and that's the difference.
Poul Anderson pointed out in his story _Operation Afreet_, later incorporated
into the novel _Operation Chaos_, that the law of conservation of mass
requires that a were-beast have the same mass as the person that transforms
into it. Wolves are a pretty good match for humans in this respect, weighing
up to 180 pounds. In contrast, the biggest coyote ever measured was 75 pounds,
with 30-50 pounds typical. Thus, coyotes really can't very well replace wolves
in unban fantasy.
I suppose if you can magic yourself, your "human"
form doesn't absolutely have to have the same mass
as normal people. Suppose you're quite hollow
on the inside...
Lynn McGuire
2020-01-18 00:43:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Joe Bernstein
snip
So yeah, foxes are obviously doing better - but wait a minute. We
haven't seen coyotes overtake wolves in American folklore, have we?
I mean, yes, Coyote as a symbol of diversity and all, but werewolves,
fercrineoutloud. OTOH, maybe South Korea is more urbanised than the
US, and that's the difference.
Poul Anderson pointed out in his story _Operation Afreet_, later incorporated
into the novel _Operation Chaos_, that the law of conservation of mass
requires that a were-beast have the same mass as the person that transforms
into it. Wolves are a pretty good match for humans in this respect, weighing
up to 180 pounds. In contrast, the biggest coyote ever measured was 75 pounds,
with 30-50 pounds typical. Thus, coyotes really can't very well replace wolves
in unban fantasy.
Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Well, I will stop reading the stories about Mercy Thompson then. Not !
https://www.amazon.com/Moon-Called-Mercy-Thompson-Book/dp/0441013813/

Lynn
David Johnston
2020-01-19 01:31:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Joe Bernstein
snip
So yeah, foxes are obviously doing better - but wait a minute. We
haven't seen coyotes overtake wolves in American folklore, have we?
I mean, yes, Coyote as a symbol of diversity and all, but werewolves,
fercrineoutloud. OTOH, maybe South Korea is more urbanised than the
US, and that's the difference.
Poul Anderson pointed out in his story _Operation Afreet_, later incorporated
into the novel _Operation Chaos_, that the law of conservation of mass
requires that a were-beast have the same mass as the person that transforms
into it. Wolves are a pretty good match for humans in this respect, weighing
up to 180 pounds. In contrast, the biggest coyote ever measured was 75 pounds,
with 30-50 pounds typical. Thus, coyotes really can't very well replace wolves
in unban fantasy.
Most urban fantasy isn't hard fantasy.

Joe Bernstein
2020-01-13 03:54:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by James Nicoll
Wicked Fox (Gumiho, book 1) by Kat Cho
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/fools-rush-in
I have access to the book and will read it.
Have now read it. Apparently the sequel is due later this year, and
is meant to conclude the story. I was amused that it had a glossary
much more concerned with making life in Korea comprehensible than
with fantasy terminology; I was utterly gobsmacked that this glossary
included Korean, in Hangul, for everything. (To put it *mildly*, not
something I see in most YA books! I can just see writers of and
about every other ethnicity looking at that and thinking, "Ooh, I
*want* ...")

I'm not finding that I want to go back, re-read Mr. Nicoll's review,
and then write my own, so will probably defer until the aequel is out.

Joe Bernstein
--
Joe Bernstein <***@gmail.com>
Robert Carnegie
2020-01-13 22:21:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by James Nicoll
Wicked Fox (Gumiho, book 1) by Kat Cho
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/fools-rush-in
I have access to the book and will read it.
Have now read it. Apparently the sequel is due later this year, and
is meant to conclude the story. I was amused that it had a glossary
much more concerned with making life in Korea comprehensible than
with fantasy terminology; I was utterly gobsmacked that this glossary
included Korean, in Hangul, for everything. (To put it *mildly*, not
something I see in most YA books! I can just see writers of and
about every other ethnicity looking at that and thinking, "Ooh, I
*want* ...")?
Careful translation? Or padding out the page count?
Post by Joe Bernstein
I'm not finding that I want to go back, re-read Mr. Nicoll's review,
and then write my own,
It would be interesting if you did -
Post by Joe Bernstein
so will probably defer until the aequel is out.
- while perhaps better to look at the whole thing.
Joe Bernstein
2020-01-14 04:15:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Joe Bernstein
I was amused that it had a glossary
much more concerned with making life in Korea comprehensible than
with fantasy terminology; I was utterly gobsmacked that this glossary
included Korean, in Hangul, for everything. (To put it *mildly*, not
something I see in most YA books! I can just see writers of and
about every other ethnicity looking at that and thinking, "Ooh, I
*want* ...")?
Careful translation? Or padding out the page count?
It's only four pages - i.e., two sheets of paper - so I don't think
it's padding.

When possible, I cite YouTube videos of Korean music that have all of:
English translation (duh), romanisation (so you can sing along), and
Hangul. This last originally struck me as misplaced veneration by
the videos' makers, but it actually does serve a useful purpose -
checking the romanisation. Many romanisers cut corners. (Of course,
you have to know Hangul to check romanisations, but heck, you can't
sing along with the romanisations unless you know *those*, so so what?)

Cho romanises consistently and correctly (except for personal names,
which are usually an exception and aren't in the glossary), though,
so I'm not really sure why she wanted Hangul there, let alone why her
publisher went along with it.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Joe Bernstein
I'm not finding that I want to go back, re-read Mr. Nicoll's review,
and then write my own,
It would be interesting if you did -
Post by Joe Bernstein
so will probably defer until the aequel is out.
- while perhaps better to look at the whole thing.
The sequel really is a sequel, not just half the story. This one
wraps up neatly, complete with partly happy ending, until Our
Antiheroine goes to the woods one day, only to be warned by a ghost
that she's Not Done Yet.

Oh, one other thing. Several of the blurbists cited Korean dramas as
referents for this book. They were right. Part of the reason I like
the protagonist is that she likes one of my favourite dramas (<My
Girlfriend is a Gumiho>) and one of my favourite Korean singers ("IU"),
but it goes deeper than that. The way the leads have incomplete
families - K-drama norm. The sudden reveal in the middle that "Your
___ killed my ___" - common in K-drama. Relentless plot, but focus
on feelings - K-drama norm. I think these are the main similarities,
but I'd probably find more if I looked harder. It's not at all
uncommon for Korean-Americans to watch lots of K-dramas, and although
I don't know Cho's age she obviously has watched many dramas of the
same general vintage as I have, mostly this-century, and they've
obviously shaped her storytelling imagination to a non-trivial degree.

Joe Bernstein
--
Joe Bernstein <***@gmail.com>
s***@yahoo.com
2020-01-14 23:45:32 UTC
Permalink
Long ago I was playing D&D. I was the only one not a physics grad. When one was exasperated by the physics of the transform spells, saying "where does the mass go", I replied that it is rotated into foo-space, and that was the end of it.
h***@gmail.com
2020-01-15 00:34:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Long ago I was playing D&D. I was the only one not a physics grad. When one was exasperated by the physics of the transform spells, saying "where does the mass go", I replied that it is rotated into foo-space, and that was the end of it.
I understand that people have figured out that Reverse Gravity should cause a hurricane
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