Discussion:
Interstellar empires in sf
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a***@gmail.com
2019-05-06 23:07:32 UTC
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I enjoy reading stories about interstellar empires. There are several problems an interstellar empire must solve. How to travel light years in short times. How to govern a vast empire.

In many SF empires, the government may be corrupt. This is realistic. All human institutions are tainted by our moral imperfections.

Idealism rarely survives the real world of politics. The key thing realists must achieve is protection of human rights of its public, with economic growth and trade.

Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor

"Politics is the art of the impossible"
Lynn McGuire
2019-05-07 00:25:54 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
I enjoy reading stories about interstellar empires. There are several problems an interstellar empire must solve. How to travel light years in short times. How to govern a vast empire.
In many SF empires, the government may be corrupt. This is realistic. All human institutions are tainted by our moral imperfections.
Idealism rarely survives the real world of politics. The key thing realists must achieve is protection of human rights of its public, with economic growth and trade.
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"Politics is the art of the impossible"
The undeniable best story about an interstellar empire:
https://www.amazon.com/Foundation-Isaac-Asimov/dp/0553293354/

Wow, Big River is saying that _Foundation_ is third in a series of ten
books. I guess that I did not realize that even though I have read all
ten books.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/bookseries/B00CJDIBD4/

Lynn
David Johnston
2019-05-07 00:36:32 UTC
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I enjoy reading stories about interstellar empires.  There are several
problems an interstellar empire must solve.  How to travel light years
in short times.  How to govern a vast empire.
In many SF empires, the government may be corrupt.  This is
realistic.  All human institutions are tainted by our moral
imperfections.
Idealism rarely survives the real world of politics.  The key thing
realists must achieve is protection of human rights of its public,
with economic growth and trade.
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"Politics is the art of the impossible"
   https://www.amazon.com/Foundation-Isaac-Asimov/dp/0553293354/
Wow, Big River is saying that _Foundation_ is third in a series of ten
books.  I guess that I did not realize that even though I have read all
ten books.
   https://www.amazon.com/gp/bookseries/B00CJDIBD4/
Lynn
Only chronologically. Those first two books were prequels. However the
The Stars Like Dust, The Currents of Space, and Pebble in the Sky appear
to be even earlier in the same continuity.
Johnny1A
2019-05-15 04:56:44 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
I enjoy reading stories about interstellar empires. There are several problems an interstellar empire must solve. How to travel light years in short times. How to govern a vast empire.
In many SF empires, the government may be corrupt. This is realistic. All human institutions are tainted by our moral imperfections.
Idealism rarely survives the real world of politics. The key thing realists must achieve is protection of human rights of its public, with economic growth and trade.
Of course, there is wide disagreement on the what those rights are, and are not, between polities and within them.

Everything depends, in analyzing interstellar states and societies for SFnal purposes, on the assumed technological background. If it takes a year to cross the empire, it'll look very different than if it takes five years, or a week. If messages can be sent instantaneously across the state, things will be rather different than if it takes months to send a message from the capitol to the marches.
a***@gmail.com
2019-05-15 07:08:02 UTC
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Post by Johnny1A
Post by a***@gmail.com
I enjoy reading stories about interstellar empires. There are several problems an interstellar empire must solve. How to travel light years in short times. How to govern a vast empire.
In many SF empires, the government may be corrupt. This is realistic. All human institutions are tainted by our moral imperfections.
Idealism rarely survives the real world of politics. The key thing realists must achieve is protection of human rights of its public, with economic growth and trade.
Of course, there is wide disagreement on the what those rights are, and are not, between polities and within them.
Perhaps there will be universal laws and rights that apply to everyone, and local rules that do not contradict universal rules.

As the most basic universal rights, I propose sanctity of body and mind. That means your body and mind can never be violated.
Post by Johnny1A
Everything depends, in analyzing interstellar states and societies for SFnal purposes, on the assumed technological background. If it takes a year to cross the empire, it'll look very different than if it takes five years, or a week. If messages can be sent instantaneously across the state, things will be rather different than if it takes months to send a message from the capitol to the marches.
It is fast communication and transportation that has made globalisation progress in our world. Without fast communication and transportation it will be hard to establish and control an interstellar empire.

Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor

"Law is the ultimate science"
Johnny1A
2019-05-17 03:42:43 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by Johnny1A
Post by a***@gmail.com
I enjoy reading stories about interstellar empires. There are several problems an interstellar empire must solve. How to travel light years in short times. How to govern a vast empire.
In many SF empires, the government may be corrupt. This is realistic. All human institutions are tainted by our moral imperfections.
Idealism rarely survives the real world of politics. The key thing realists must achieve is protection of human rights of its public, with economic growth and trade.
Of course, there is wide disagreement on the what those rights are, and are not, between polities and within them.
Perhaps there will be universal laws and rights that apply to everyone, and local rules that do not contradict universal rules.
As the most basic universal rights, I propose sanctity of body and mind. That means your body and mind can never be violated.
Now define 'sanctity', 'body', 'mind', and 'violate'. This is not a joke.
Peter Trei
2019-05-17 12:30:39 UTC
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Post by Johnny1A
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by Johnny1A
Post by a***@gmail.com
I enjoy reading stories about interstellar empires. There are several problems an interstellar empire must solve. How to travel light years in short times. How to govern a vast empire.
In many SF empires, the government may be corrupt. This is realistic. All human institutions are tainted by our moral imperfections.
Idealism rarely survives the real world of politics. The key thing realists must achieve is protection of human rights of its public, with economic growth and trade.
Of course, there is wide disagreement on the what those rights are, and are not, between polities and within them.
Perhaps there will be universal laws and rights that apply to everyone, and local rules that do not contradict universal rules.
As the most basic universal rights, I propose sanctity of body and mind. That means your body and mind can never be violated.
Now define 'sanctity', 'body', 'mind', and 'violate'. This is not a joke.
So, alal is cool with anti-vaxers?

I'm curious how he applies this claim to a woman seeking abortion. Does
she get it, or not? As it stands, its utterly ambiguous.

pt
a***@gmail.com
2019-05-17 13:55:17 UTC
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Post by Peter Trei
Post by Johnny1A
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by Johnny1A
Post by a***@gmail.com
I enjoy reading stories about interstellar empires. There are several problems an interstellar empire must solve. How to travel light years in short times. How to govern a vast empire.
In many SF empires, the government may be corrupt. This is realistic. All human institutions are tainted by our moral imperfections.
Idealism rarely survives the real world of politics. The key thing realists must achieve is protection of human rights of its public, with economic growth and trade.
Of course, there is wide disagreement on the what those rights are, and are not, between polities and within them.
Perhaps there will be universal laws and rights that apply to everyone, and local rules that do not contradict universal rules.
As the most basic universal rights, I propose sanctity of body and mind. That means your body and mind can never be violated.
Now define 'sanctity', 'body', 'mind', and 'violate'. This is not a joke.
So, alal is cool with anti-vaxers?
Forgive me, I don't know what anti-vaxers are.
Post by Peter Trei
I'm curious how he applies this claim to a woman seeking abortion. Does
she get it, or not? As it stands, its utterly ambiguous.
pt
I over simplified things. A person should have full control over his or her mind and body. That means no unwanted medical procedures or unwanted implants on the body. That also means no unwanted use of hypnotic techniques on the mind, including blocking of memories, creation of false memories, or programming of behaviour. No physical torture.

I am sure my preceding statement is imperfect, and we can discuss further if you want to, but I discuss as a retired IT consultant, and am not able to discuss as a legal professional.

My concern is protecting the rights of my friends and I.

Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor

"Nature is cruel"
Kevrob
2019-05-17 17:07:38 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
Forgive me, I don't know what anti-vaxers are.
You can work a search engine, can't you?

People who distrust vaccines, and avoid them for themselves
or their children.

See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_hesitancy

These louts are prmoting measles outbreaks here in the USA.

--
Kevin R
a.a #2310
Thomas Koenig
2019-05-17 20:24:46 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
Post by a***@gmail.com
Forgive me, I don't know what anti-vaxers are.
You can work a search engine, can't you?
Obviously, it's people who do not like
http://catb.org/jargon/html/V/vaxocentrism.html
Titus G
2019-05-17 22:37:32 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
Post by a***@gmail.com
Forgive me, I don't know what anti-vaxers are.
You can work a search engine, can't you?
People who distrust vaccines, and avoid them for themselves or their
children.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_hesitancy
These louts are prmoting measles outbreaks here in the USA.
-- Kevin R a.a #2310
But, but, but. Only people who haven't been vaccinated for measles will
break out in measles, won't they?
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2019-05-17 23:28:50 UTC
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Post by Titus G
Post by Kevrob
Post by a***@gmail.com
Forgive me, I don't know what anti-vaxers are.
You can work a search engine, can't you?
People who distrust vaccines, and avoid them for themselves or their
children.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_hesitancy
These louts are prmoting measles outbreaks here in the USA.
-- Kevin R a.a #2310
But, but, but. Only people who haven't been vaccinated for measles will
break out in measles, won't they?
Right. Which isn't the antivaxxers. It's the blameless children of
antivaxxers, babies too young to have been vaccinated yet, people with
immune system issues who can't take vaccinations, old people whose
immune systems are no longer up to it even after vaccination...

Cheers - Jaimie
--
Never sleep with anyone crazier than you are.
Kevrob
2019-05-17 23:47:37 UTC
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Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Titus G
Post by Kevrob
Post by a***@gmail.com
Forgive me, I don't know what anti-vaxers are.
You can work a search engine, can't you?
People who distrust vaccines, and avoid them for themselves or their
children.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_hesitancy
These louts are prmoting measles outbreaks here in the USA.
-- Kevin R a.a #2310
But, but, but. Only people who haven't been vaccinated for measles will
break out in measles, won't they?
Right. Which isn't the antivaxxers. It's the blameless children of
antivaxxers, babies too young to have been vaccinated yet, people with
immune system issues who can't take vaccinations, old people whose
immune systems are no longer up to it even after vaccination...
I would not require people to get the vaccinations, but
they woould be under a moral obligation to make sure
they are not carriers, and as soon as they know they are,
to shut themselves away from others. The children involved
would have to be home-schooled, or enrolled in distance
learning of some kind.

This is a highly impractical solution.

Absent a real medical issue (deathly allergic to an ingredient
in the vaccine, frex) people should get the vaccination.

Every once in a while this presumption is untrue. Consider the
mid-1970s "swine flu" scare.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/long-shadow-1976-swine-flu-vaccine-fiasco-180961994/

Kevin R
Robert Carnegie
2019-05-18 00:08:46 UTC
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Post by Titus G
Post by Kevrob
Post by a***@gmail.com
Forgive me, I don't know what anti-vaxers are.
You can work a search engine, can't you?
People who distrust vaccines, and avoid them for themselves or their
children.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_hesitancy
These louts are prmoting measles outbreaks here in the USA.
-- Kevin R a.a #2310
But, but, but. Only people who haven't been vaccinated for measles will
break out in measles, won't they?
Babies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and people
with various immune system conditions that make
routine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, any
allergy), but also people whose vaccination just
didn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.
They all can still get it.

I think my age group got vaccines against polio
and tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s getting
the routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccine
now annually: I think there was talk of making
one that goes on working...
J. Clarke
2019-05-18 00:32:52 UTC
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On Fri, 17 May 2019 17:08:46 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Titus G
Post by Kevrob
Post by a***@gmail.com
Forgive me, I don't know what anti-vaxers are.
You can work a search engine, can't you?
People who distrust vaccines, and avoid them for themselves or their
children.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_hesitancy
These louts are prmoting measles outbreaks here in the USA.
-- Kevin R a.a #2310
But, but, but. Only people who haven't been vaccinated for measles will
break out in measles, won't they?
Babies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and people
with various immune system conditions that make
routine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, any
allergy), but also people whose vaccination just
didn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.
They all can still get it.
I think my age group got vaccines against polio
and tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s getting
the routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccine
now annually: I think there was talk of making
one that goes on working...
It's not that it doesn't "go on working", the virus mutates.
Dimensional Traveler
2019-05-18 00:49:37 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 17 May 2019 17:08:46 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Titus G
Post by Kevrob
Post by a***@gmail.com
Forgive me, I don't know what anti-vaxers are.
You can work a search engine, can't you?
People who distrust vaccines, and avoid them for themselves or their
children.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_hesitancy
These louts are prmoting measles outbreaks here in the USA.
-- Kevin R a.a #2310
But, but, but. Only people who haven't been vaccinated for measles will
break out in measles, won't they?
Babies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and people
with various immune system conditions that make
routine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, any
allergy), but also people whose vaccination just
didn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.
They all can still get it.
I think my age group got vaccines against polio
and tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s getting
the routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccine
now annually: I think there was talk of making
one that goes on working...
It's not that it doesn't "go on working", the virus mutates.
It mutates A LOT. The annual "flu vaccine" isn't a vaccine against
"this year's model", its a vaccine against the two or three variants
that are expected to be the most common in the coming "flu season".
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-05-18 01:48:44 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Babies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and people
with various immune system conditions that make
routine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, any
allergy), but also people whose vaccination just
didn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.
They all can still get it.
I think my age group got vaccines against polio
and tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s getting
the routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccine
now annually: I think there was talk of making
one that goes on working...
That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu is
caused by a slightly different virus (the human and animal
population having either had the previous year's virus and now
are immune, or died of it).

It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and the
answer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there are
umpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutating
like mad into something we can catch *this* year.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Titus G
2019-05-18 03:13:44 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
Babies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and people
with various immune system conditions that make
routine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, any
allergy), but also people whose vaccination just
didn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.
They all can still get it.
I think my age group got vaccines against polio
and tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s getting
the routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccine
now annually: I think there was talk of making
one that goes on working...
That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu is
caused by a slightly different virus (the human and animal
population having either had the previous year's virus and now
are immune, or died of it).
It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and the
answer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there are
umpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutating
like mad into something we can catch *this* year.
Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'flu
vaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that but
did not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.
So, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
David Johnston
2019-05-18 04:35:07 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
Babies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and people
with various immune system conditions that make
routine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, any
allergy), but also people whose vaccination just
didn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.
They all can still get it.
I think my age group got vaccines against polio
and tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s getting
the routine diseases.  I buy an influenza vaccine
now annually: I think there was talk of making
one that goes on working...
That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu is
caused by a slightly different virus (the human and animal
population having either had the previous year's virus and now
are immune, or died of it).
It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and the
answer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there are
umpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutating
like mad into something we can catch *this* year.
Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'flu
vaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that but
did not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.
So, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
I assure you they are. For one thing influenza is something of a
special case because of it's peculiar nature that causes it to exchange
DNA with hosts. Other viruses like tetanus, smallpox, measles and
rubella are much less slippery. We'd give up on influenza except that
influenza is the infectious disease that, when left unchecked, kills
more people than any other disease known to humanity.
m***@sky.com
2019-05-18 05:06:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Titus G
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
Babies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and people
with various immune system conditions that make
routine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, any
allergy), but also people whose vaccination just
didn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.
They all can still get it.
I think my age group got vaccines against polio
and tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s getting
the routine diseases.  I buy an influenza vaccine
now annually: I think there was talk of making
one that goes on working...
That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu is
caused by a slightly different virus (the human and animal
population having either had the previous year's virus and now
are immune, or died of it).
It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and the
answer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there are
umpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutating
like mad into something we can catch *this* year.
Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'flu
vaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that but
did not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.
So, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
I assure you they are. For one thing influenza is something of a
special case because of it's peculiar nature that causes it to exchange
DNA with hosts. Other viruses like tetanus, smallpox, measles and
rubella are much less slippery. We'd give up on influenza except that
influenza is the infectious disease that, when left unchecked, kills
more people than any other disease known to humanity.
Agreed. I have usually got myself vaccinated before Christmas because, while I am not likely to be seriously affected by the flu, my Mother's health is precarious enough for her to be killed by it, and I don't want to give her it for Christmas. However last year the UK government decided to change the way the flu vaccine was distributed in a way that made it hard to get vaccinated even if you were in one of the risk groups, and people outside a risk group like me could not buy a vaccination.

(Meanwhile I rejoice in the super-science enhancements that have given me the special powers of not dying in childhood from tuberculosis, diphtheria, whooping-cough, or whatever else it is that was vaccinated against that I don't even need to remember).
David DeLaney
2019-05-23 15:38:07 UTC
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Permalink
Post by m***@sky.com
(Meanwhile I rejoice in the super-science enhancements that have given me the
special powers of not dying in childhood from tuberculosis, diphtheria,
whooping-cough, or whatever else it is that was vaccinated against that I
don't even need to remember).
I know measles, mumps, and rubella off the top of my head; Wikipedia reminds
me that the standard set in the US also now includes
hepatitis B
rotavirus
tetanus
haemophilus influenza b
pneumococcal (something)
polio
influenza, they want you starting young on that one [*]
chickenpox/shingles
hepatitis A
meningococcus
human papilomavirus

(Smallpox is aparently still eradicated, so is not included.)

Dave, I think not all of these were available yet in the late '60s

[*] I happen to know from long experience that if I do not get the flu shot, I
_still_ do not get the flu. "Has never knowingly had a flu shot" scale of long
experience. I attribute this NOT to the flu shot being a Conspiracy to Inject
the Population with Unknown Substances, Possibly Green and Glowing, In Order To
Control Their Minds and Keep Them From attaining Rich-People Social Status,
but rather to the plethora of colds and flus and ear infections that I got as
a child 50-odd years ago in Cleveland OH having turbocharged my immune system
and got it firmly in "remember ALL of these FOREVER" mode for life.
(Diabetes does not appear to be under the purview of my immune system as
such, alas. But it works well enough that I don't keep a box of bandaids at
home, because my wounds don't get infected, for another example.)
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
D B Davis
2019-05-23 16:29:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by m***@sky.com
(Meanwhile I rejoice in the super-science enhancements that have given me the
special powers of not dying in childhood from tuberculosis, diphtheria,
whooping-cough, or whatever else it is that was vaccinated against that I
don't even need to remember).
I know measles, mumps, and rubella off the top of my head; Wikipedia reminds
me that the standard set in the US also now includes
hepatitis B
rotavirus
tetanus
haemophilus influenza b
pneumococcal (something)
polio
influenza, they want you starting young on that one [*]
chickenpox/shingles
hepatitis A
meningococcus
human papilomavirus
(Smallpox is aparently still eradicated, so is not included.)
Dave, I think not all of these were available yet in the late '60s
[*] I happen to know from long experience that if I do not get the flu shot, I
_still_ do not get the flu. "Has never knowingly had a flu shot" scale of long
experience. I attribute this NOT to the flu shot being a Conspiracy to Inject
the Population with Unknown Substances, Possibly Green and Glowing, In Order T
o
Post by David DeLaney
Control Their Minds and Keep Them From attaining Rich-People Social Status,
but rather to the plethora of colds and flus and ear infections that I got as
a child 50-odd years ago in Cleveland OH having turbocharged my immune system
and got it firmly in "remember ALL of these FOREVER" mode for life.
(Diabetes does not appear to be under the purview of my immune system as
such, alas. But it works well enough that I don't keep a box of bandaids at
home, because my wounds don't get infected, for another example.)
Careful there. Some vaccinations /are/ part of a Conspiracy.

ACTIVISM UPDATE: WaPo Editor Responds on Polio, Pakistan and the CIA

... As to whether a fake 2011 vaccination drive in Abbottabad
related to the hunt for bin Laden bears meaningful responsibility
for today's scares and violence against medical personnel, you
might wish to directly ask the reporter ...

The harm done to the anti-polio campaign is exactly what was
forecast when the CIA operation was revealed. As the Guardian
(7/14/11) reported at the time:

The impact of the fake vaccination drive may be keenly felt in
Pakistan, where the public already sees an American conspiracy
everywhere. Polio campaigns could be at particular risk, as
Pakistan has the biggest polio problem in the world.

With the predicted damage to trust now resulting in a resurgence of
the devastating disease, it would help prevent similarly destructive
operations in the future if the Post would acknowledge their
impact-in both its news and editorial pages. ...

https://fair.org/home/activism-update-wapo-editor-responds-on-polio-pakistan-and-the-cia/



Thank you,
--
Don
Dimensional Traveler
2019-05-23 19:56:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by m***@sky.com
(Meanwhile I rejoice in the super-science enhancements that have given me the
special powers of not dying in childhood from tuberculosis, diphtheria,
whooping-cough, or whatever else it is that was vaccinated against that I
don't even need to remember).
I know measles, mumps, and rubella off the top of my head; Wikipedia reminds
me that the standard set in the US also now includes
hepatitis B
rotavirus
tetanus
haemophilus influenza b
pneumococcal (something)
polio
influenza, they want you starting young on that one [*]
chickenpox/shingles
hepatitis A
meningococcus
human papilomavirus
(Smallpox is aparently still eradicated, so is not included.)
Dave, I think not all of these were available yet in the late '60s
[*] I happen to know from long experience that if I do not get the flu shot, I
_still_ do not get the flu. "Has never knowingly had a flu shot" scale of long
experience. I attribute this NOT to the flu shot being a Conspiracy to Inject
the Population with Unknown Substances, Possibly Green and Glowing, In Order To
Control Their Minds and Keep Them From attaining Rich-People Social Status,
but rather to the plethora of colds and flus and ear infections that I got as
a child 50-odd years ago in Cleveland OH having turbocharged my immune system
and got it firmly in "remember ALL of these FOREVER" mode for life.
(Diabetes does not appear to be under the purview of my immune system as
such, alas. But it works well enough that I don't keep a box of bandaids at
home, because my wounds don't get infected, for another example.)
You are a mutant and we must vivisect you for the good of all Mankind.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Lynn McGuire
2019-05-23 21:52:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by David DeLaney
Post by m***@sky.com
(Meanwhile I rejoice in the super-science enhancements that have given me the
special powers of not dying in childhood from tuberculosis, diphtheria,
whooping-cough, or whatever else it is that was vaccinated against that I
don't even need to remember).
I know measles, mumps, and rubella off the top of my head; Wikipedia reminds
me that the standard set in the US also now includes
hepatitis B
rotavirus
tetanus
haemophilus influenza b
pneumococcal (something)
polio
influenza, they want you starting young on that one [*]
chickenpox/shingles
hepatitis A
meningococcus
human papilomavirus
(Smallpox is aparently still eradicated, so is not included.)
Dave, I think not all of these were available yet in the late '60s
[*] I happen to know from long experience that if I do not get the flu shot, I
_still_ do not get the flu. "Has never knowingly had a flu shot" scale of long
experience. I attribute this NOT to the flu shot being a Conspiracy to Inject
the Population with Unknown Substances, Possibly Green and Glowing, In Order To
Control Their Minds and Keep Them From attaining Rich-People Social Status,
but rather to the plethora of colds and flus and ear infections that I got as
a child 50-odd years ago in Cleveland OH having turbocharged my immune system
and got it firmly in "remember ALL of these FOREVER" mode for life.
    (Diabetes does not appear to be under the purview of my immune
system as
such, alas. But it works well enough that I don't keep a box of bandaids at
home, because my wounds don't get infected, for another example.)
You are a mutant and we must vivisect you for the good of all Mankind.
I can think of at least 4 or 5 SF stories that mention that concept.

Lynn
Thomas Koenig
2019-05-26 12:53:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
You are a mutant and we must vivisect you for the good of all Mankind.
We are all mutants. With around 3*10^9 base pairs and a mutation rate
of around 10^(-8), each of us has around 30 mutations.
Kevrob
2019-05-26 20:03:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by Dimensional Traveler
You are a mutant and we must vivisect you for the good of all Mankind.
We are all mutants. With around 3*10^9 base pairs and a mutation rate
of around 10^(-8), each of us has around 30 mutations.
I've known this ever since I read X-MEN #59, wherein Cyclops
convinces the mutant-hunting Sentinels that, rather than try
to neutralize all mutants on Earth, it would make sense to
travel to the sun, and end mutation at the source! That was
1969, when I would have been 12.

They failed at that, then came back. (AVENGERS #102)

Now, I might have read these in reverse order, as in the
early 70s I was following the Avengers every month, whereas
I only sporadically read the Marvels in the late 60s. I got
caught up once I was a college kid with access to back issues
at a comics shop.

Kevin R
Carl Fink
2019-05-24 14:53:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
(Diabetes does not appear to be under the purview of my immune system as
such, alas. But it works well enough that I don't keep a box of bandaids at
home, because my wounds don't get infected, for another example.)
Diabetes is very much under the purview of the immune system, in that it is
often caused by it. Type I diabetes is most commonly an autoimmune disorder.
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read John Grant's book, Corrupted Science: http://a.co/9UsUoGu
Dedicated to ... Carl Fink!
David DeLaney
2019-05-25 14:23:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by David DeLaney
(Diabetes does not appear to be under the purview of my immune system as
such, alas. But it works well enough that I don't keep a box of bandaids at
home, because my wounds don't get infected, for another example.)
Diabetes is very much under the purview of the immune system, in that it is
often caused by it. Type I diabetes is most commonly an autoimmune disorder.
Which basically translates into it working like one of those pantomime-
slapstick scenes where the policemen are diligently hunting the criminal, who
is sneaking merrily along in their wake causing chaos while the audience yells
directions. Autoimmune disorders are, almost by definition, things the immune
system can't actually handle itself.

Dave, perpetually mildly buzzing these days
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Dimensional Traveler
2019-05-18 04:35:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
Babies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and people
with various immune system conditions that make
routine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, any
allergy), but also people whose vaccination just
didn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.
They all can still get it.
I think my age group got vaccines against polio
and tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s getting
the routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccine
now annually: I think there was talk of making
one that goes on working...
That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu is
caused by a slightly different virus (the human and animal
population having either had the previous year's virus and now
are immune, or died of it).
It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and the
answer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there are
umpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutating
like mad into something we can catch *this* year.
Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'flu
vaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that but
did not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.
So, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
You are right, they aren't _that_ stupid.

They are an order of magnitude stupider.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
J. Clarke
2019-05-18 04:48:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 17 May 2019 21:35:34 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Titus G
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
Babies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and people
with various immune system conditions that make
routine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, any
allergy), but also people whose vaccination just
didn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.
They all can still get it.
I think my age group got vaccines against polio
and tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s getting
the routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccine
now annually: I think there was talk of making
one that goes on working...
That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu is
caused by a slightly different virus (the human and animal
population having either had the previous year's virus and now
are immune, or died of it).
It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and the
answer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there are
umpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutating
like mad into something we can catch *this* year.
Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'flu
vaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that but
did not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.
So, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
You are right, they aren't _that_ stupid.
They are an order of magnitude stupider.
I'm not an antivaxxer, but I refuse to get flu shots. Someone I know
got Guillain-Barre the year that that was happening and I'd rather
have the flu thank you.
Peter Trei
2019-05-18 05:20:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 17 May 2019 21:35:34 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Titus G
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
Babies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and people
with various immune system conditions that make
routine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, any
allergy), but also people whose vaccination just
didn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.
They all can still get it.
I think my age group got vaccines against polio
and tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s getting
the routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccine
now annually: I think there was talk of making
one that goes on working...
That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu is
caused by a slightly different virus (the human and animal
population having either had the previous year's virus and now
are immune, or died of it).
It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and the
answer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there are
umpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutating
like mad into something we can catch *this* year.
Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'flu
vaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that but
did not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.
So, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
You are right, they aren't _that_ stupid.
They are an order of magnitude stupider.
I'm not an antivaxxer, but I refuse to get flu shots. Someone I know
got Guillain-Barre the year that that was happening and I'd rather
have the flu thank you.
Curiously, I test positive for BCG, probably due to living close to dairy
cattle, which may give me some immunity to G-B, and TB.

pt
Robert Carnegie
2019-05-18 10:16:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
Babies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and people
with various immune system conditions that make
routine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, any
allergy), but also people whose vaccination just
didn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.
They all can still get it.
I think my age group got vaccines against polio
and tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s getting
the routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccine
now annually: I think there was talk of making
one that goes on working...
That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu is
caused by a slightly different virus (the human and animal
population having either had the previous year's virus and now
are immune, or died of it).
It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and the
answer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there are
umpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutating
like mad into something we can catch *this* year.
Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'flu
vaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that but
did not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.
So, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
Nah, they're generally dumb. Or in some cases wicked.
I just searched for keywords (crystal flu) and, as you
may have guessed, there are folks happy to sell me magic
"crystals" that prevent colds and influenza. Or don't,
but "heal" you when you've got 'em. Lovely people.

Vaccination has had dark episodes such as in the
nineteenth century, and always has the paradox of
risk from vaccination itself - after all, the doctor
could trip and fall and stick the needle in your eye -
as well as the cost. Depending on the disease,
vaccinating everybody may cause it to die out, then
you can stop vaccinating for that disease.
(This takes a while.) Other diseases hang around
in wild animals so we're stuck with those - apart from
exterminating the wild animals, which... may happen.

Or, the disease continues to exist in foreigners.
It's still worth vaccinating citizens, and possibly
stopping.

If a disease is very rare, for instance due to
vaccination, then its risk to you may become comparable
to disadvantages of a vaccine. That's the point where
you may be taking the vaccine mainly to kill the disease
altogether and protect the population until the end of
the world... so you need to consider when that is.

As for
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_flu_vaccine>
it says "clinical trials".
D B Davis
2019-05-18 14:19:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
Babies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and people
with various immune system conditions that make
routine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, any
allergy), but also people whose vaccination just
didn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.
They all can still get it.
I think my age group got vaccines against polio
and tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s getting
the routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccine
now annually: I think there was talk of making
one that goes on working...
That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu is
caused by a slightly different virus (the human and animal
population having either had the previous year's virus and now
are immune, or died of it).
It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and the
answer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there are
umpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutating
like mad into something we can catch *this* year.
Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'flu
vaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that but
did not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.
So, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
There's a reason that one of my former colleagues, an immunologist who
performs clinical trials, refers to himself as "Pus King." Vaccines
remind me of Bismark's misattributed sausage, you don't want to know
how either is made. Perhaps some of those anti-vaxxers took a peek at
the CDC's "Vaccine Excipient & Media Summary:"

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf

There's also a reason that another former colleague, a pediatric nurse,
thought that American school children are over-immunized. Her clinical
refrigerator held dozens of different government mandated vaccines in
neatly stacked trays.
How many vaccinations are enough? Is an over-generalized,
one-size-fits-all solution the best answer, or is it merely the easiest
to administer?



Thank you,
--
Don
Robert Carnegie
2019-05-18 16:35:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
Babies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and people
with various immune system conditions that make
routine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, any
allergy), but also people whose vaccination just
didn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.
They all can still get it.
I think my age group got vaccines against polio
and tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s getting
the routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccine
now annually: I think there was talk of making
one that goes on working...
That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu is
caused by a slightly different virus (the human and animal
population having either had the previous year's virus and now
are immune, or died of it).
It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and the
answer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there are
umpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutating
like mad into something we can catch *this* year.
Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'flu
vaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that but
did not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.
It's not precisely that. I suppose you can search
on (flu vaccine design) as effectively as anyone else:
this looks like a reasonably thorough explanation.

<https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/vaccine-selection.htm>

Although somehow I don't perceive as much urgency
as I'd like to see applied to this important work.
Now, scientists don't need to be excited, or doctors
emotionally involved, to do their work well.
But in this topic... I'd just like to see a sense
of excitement.
Post by Titus G
So, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
William Hyde
2019-05-18 21:15:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
Babies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and people
with various immune system conditions that make
routine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, any
allergy), but also people whose vaccination just
didn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.
They all can still get it.
I think my age group got vaccines against polio
and tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s getting
the routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccine
now annually: I think there was talk of making
one that goes on working...
That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu is
caused by a slightly different virus (the human and animal
population having either had the previous year's virus and now
are immune, or died of it).
It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and the
answer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there are
umpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutating
like mad into something we can catch *this* year.
Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'flu
vaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that but
did not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.
You were not. The flu is a worldwide disease and the vaccines are constructed with an eye to what strains are likely to prevail in your area in the coming flu season. This will usually include a lot of last year's flu, because the strains do not change one hundred percent in a year.
Post by Titus G
So, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted
On the contrary, the flu vaccine is of some value even in the worst years, when the estimate as to the relevant strains was wrong, and is highly effective when the estimate is more or less correct.

I had the flu virtually every year in the 90s. I've been taking the flu shot since 2000 and have not had the flu since. Now that's somewhat fortunate - as I say the shot is not 100% effective - but I will certainly be getting a shot again this year.

The flu shot, of course, does not protect against other respiratory infections.

and because
Post by Titus G
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
Far from all of them are stupid. But all of them are wrong.

William Hyde
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-05-18 21:29:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by Titus G
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
Babies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and people
with various immune system conditions that make
routine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, any
allergy), but also people whose vaccination just
didn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.
They all can still get it.
I think my age group got vaccines against polio
and tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s getting
the routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccine
now annually: I think there was talk of making
one that goes on working...
That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu is
caused by a slightly different virus (the human and animal
population having either had the previous year's virus and now
are immune, or died of it).
It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and the
answer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there are
umpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutating
like mad into something we can catch *this* year.
Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'flu
vaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that but
did not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.
You were not. The flu is a worldwide disease and the vaccines are
constructed with an eye to what strains are likely to prevail in your
area in the coming flu season. This will usually include a lot of last
year's flu, because the strains do not change one hundred percent in a
year.
Post by Titus G
So, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted
On the contrary, the flu vaccine is of some value even in the worst
years, when the estimate as to the relevant strains was wrong, and is
highly effective when the estimate is more or less correct.
I had the flu virtually every year in the 90s. I've been taking the flu
shot since 2000 and have not had the flu since. Now that's somewhat
fortunate - as I say the shot is not 100% effective - but I will
certainly be getting a shot again this year.
The flu shot, of course, does not protect against other respiratory infections.
and because
Post by Titus G
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
Far from all of them are stupid. But all of them are wrong.
William Hyde
Flu ranges from "worse than a bad cold" to "cause of death".

I had 'flat on my back for 2 weeks felt like I had died flu' in 1995. Ever
since then I get the shot.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Kevrob
2019-05-19 02:22:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by William Hyde
Post by Titus G
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
Babies too young to be vaccinated, yes, and people
with various immune system conditions that make
routine vaccination unsuitable (for instance, any
allergy), but also people whose vaccination just
didn't work: because sometimes it doesn't.
They all can still get it.
I think my age group got vaccines against polio
and tuberculosis, but spent the 1970s-80s getting
the routine diseases. I buy an influenza vaccine
now annually: I think there was talk of making
one that goes on working...
That would be great ... except that each annual round of flu is
caused by a slightly different virus (the human and animal
population having either had the previous year's virus and now
are immune, or died of it).
It's like saying "Why can't they cure the common cold?" and the
answer is that there isn't any *the* common cold, there are
umpteen different rhinoviruses that spent the off-season mutating
like mad into something we can catch *this* year.
Thank you. Obviously i know little about this. In New Zealand, the 'flu
vaccine is free for doddery old farts and I take advantage of that but
did not know that I was being immunised against LAST year's 'flu.
You were not. The flu is a worldwide disease and the vaccines are
constructed with an eye to what strains are likely to prevail in your
area in the coming flu season. This will usually include a lot of last
year's flu, because the strains do not change one hundred percent in a
year.
Post by Titus G
So, because the virus mutates too quickly to be counteracted
On the contrary, the flu vaccine is of some value even in the worst
years, when the estimate as to the relevant strains was wrong, and is
highly effective when the estimate is more or less correct.
I had the flu virtually every year in the 90s. I've been taking the flu
shot since 2000 and have not had the flu since. Now that's somewhat
fortunate - as I say the shot is not 100% effective - but I will
certainly be getting a shot again this year.
The flu shot, of course, does not protect against other respiratory infections.
and because
Post by Titus G
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
Far from all of them are stupid. But all of them are wrong.
William Hyde
Flu ranges from "worse than a bad cold" to "cause of death".
I had 'flat on my back for 2 weeks felt like I had died flu' in 1995. Ever
since then I get the shot.
I never knew my paternal grandfather. `Flu got him when my dad was
3 years old. I got the "Russian Flu"* so bad in the winter of
1977-1978 that I couldn't complete my coursework for my BA and
had to withdraw before spring mid-terms. It didn't kill me, but
it cost me time and money I could not afford to waste.

Many people think they have a flu, when they have some other
respiratory infection, and/or a "stomach bug" - gastroenteritis,
from a Norovirus. That last can kill you, especially if you are
part of vulnerable group: very young, the elderly, and persons
with weakened immune systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norovirus

Preliminary research may lead to a vaccine.

https://www.medicaleconomics.com/vaccines/new-research-may-lead-norovirus-vaccine

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_A_virus_subtype_H1N1#Russian_flu

Kevin R
James Nicoll
2019-05-19 03:30:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Many people think they have a flu, when they have some other
respiratory infection, and/or a "stomach bug" - gastroenteritis,
from a Norovirus. That last can kill you, especially if you are
part of vulnerable group: very young, the elderly, and persons
with weakened immune systems.
We had a dancer who either did not know they were sick or decided
to play through it show up with norovirus at the theatre for a
dance competition. Hilarity ensued, by which I mean 40 dancers got
sick and I picked up a lot of shifts as the other staff got sick
as well.

I like to think I missed it because I have an over active immune
system but it might have been the minor detail that the sick dancer
threw up late enough I had just gone off shift and didn't have
to clean it. The HM who did clean was the first or second staff
member to succumb.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
David DeLaney
2019-05-23 15:41:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
We had a dancer who either did not know they were sick or decided
to play through it show up with norovirus at the theatre for a
dance competition. Hilarity ensued, by which I mean 40 dancers got
sick and I picked up a lot of shifts as the other staff got sick as well.
I was going to comlain that this might better have been described as "wacky
hijinks", until I looked up and really saaw who I was about to reply to.
Post by James Nicoll
I like to think I missed it because I have an over active immune
system but it might have been the minor detail that the sick dancer
threw up late enough I had just gone off shift and didn't have
to clean it. The HM who did clean was the first or second staff
member to succumb.
Dave, ick ick flower ick
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
D B Davis
2019-05-19 13:11:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
<snip>
Post by William Hyde
Post by Titus G
and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
Far from all of them are stupid. But all of them are wrong.
There's no such thing as a cure-all.

... The evidence establishes a causal relation between DT, Td,
and tetanus toxoid and death from anaphylaxis. ...

... The evidence establishes a causal relation between
vaccine-strain measles virus infection and death. ...

... The evidence establishes a causal relation between OPV and
death from vaccine-strain poliovirus infection, including
infection that results in paralytic poliomyelitis. ...

... The evidence establishes a causal relation between hepatitis
B vaccine and fatal anaphylaxis. ...

... The evidence favors acceptance of a causal relation between
PRP vaccine and death from early-onset Hib disease in children
18 months of age or older who receive their first Hib immunization
with unconjugated PRP vaccine. ...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK236284/

Allow me to note that annual flu shots are mandatory for me. It's also a
matter of ethics in my case.



Thank you,
--
Don
William Hyde
2019-05-19 22:02:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
<snip>
Post by William Hyde
Post by Titus G
and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
Far from all of them are stupid. But all of them are wrong.
There's no such thing as a cure-all.
Only this one:

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/80111/a-cure-for-all-diseases-by-reginald-hill/9780307372413

William Hyde
f***@gmail.com
2019-05-20 07:21:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Greetings all,

I'm going to weigh in on the the anti-vaxxer issue just once.

1) I had a bout of flu 16 years ago turned into double pneumonia that turned into drug resistant pneumonia, and I have absolutely no recollection of at least 3 days of my life because I was delirious with a fever between 38 and 41 degrees C. I've had the flu shot every year since, except one when South African pharmacy wholesalers seemed to have forgotten to order stock in time. People die from the flu, and from its complications. And just getting this year's vaccine is not always good enough. So the next anti-vaxxer who gets in my face about the flu vac might just suffer an extremely severe tongue-lashing.

2) Polio - thank God my generation has been spared that horror, except they haven't. A cousin of my wife missed his when he was baby. Some story about the nurse dropping the vial and telling his mother "Don't worry, its not like anybody else isn't vaccinated, and nobody gets polio these days anyway." Wrong! He survived his brush with death but has lived most of his life in a wheel chair and has extreme difficulty breathing at times. If I ever get my hands on an anti-vaxxer proposing that ANYBODY skips the polio vac I might just not be accountable for the harm that gets done.

3) My maternal grandfather died when I was six. He was only 56. Cause of death was "heart failure" but the cardiologist (who was just a little over half my grandfather's age) was quick to point out that his heart failed particularly because of damage down when he had suffered from childhood infection that was by the 80s already unheard of due to vaccination. I thought the infection was German Measles but the Wikipedia page doesn't mention any long term cardiac problems. If the vaccine the doctor was talking about had been available in the late 1920s to early 1930s (I think 1932 would have been the exact year it was needed) then my grandfather might have lived as long as some of his siblings (80 to 90). On the other hand his heart condition did keep him out of WWII, and the Korean War, despite him volunteering, and it kept him out of the underground part of the South African mining industry.

4) The entire modern anti-vaxxer movement is the product of three medical "professionals" who sold their souls for pathetically small amounts of money to promote a "homeopathic vaccine" over the traditional MMR vac. They were found out, their "evidence" completely discredited, their financial motives laid bare, and their guilt decided by a jury of their peers in courts. They have been kicked out of every professional body they ever belonged to, their qualifications and credentials have been revoked. They have already served their prison time, paid their fines and are back in general society. The anti-vaxxers are swallowing and regurgitating a discredited decade old lie. These are obviously a lower class of mental microbe, related to the UFO-crazies, the Black-helicopter-tinfoil hat brigade and the Big-foot conservators.

5) Dig deep enough into an anti-vaxxer's psychosis and the issue comes down to: "It's OK for EVERYONE else to vaccinate their children AND THEY SHOULD DO SO. I just don't want to expose my child to the needles and / or imaginary risk."

Anyway, just venting. I wish stupidity could be outlawed.

Regards
Frank
David DeLaney
2019-05-23 15:44:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
Post by Titus G
and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
Far from all of them are stupid. But all of them are wrong.
There's no such thing as a cure-all.
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/80111/a-cure-for-all-diseases-by
-reginald-hill/9780307372413

Without looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor Quirrell implied
could stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...

Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
D B Davis
2019-05-23 16:30:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
Post by Titus G
and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
Far from all of them are stupid. But all of them are wrong.
There's no such thing as a cure-all.
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/80111/a-cure-for-all-diseases-by
-reginald-hill/9780307372413
Without looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor Quirrell implied
could stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...
Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song
What song?

There's no such thing as a cure-all. Loss of consciousness is one of
many vaccine product side effects. Here's some anecdotal stories about
bad outcomes. Most patients were lucky and suffered only a /near/ death
experience.

Case 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10
minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,
and rubella vaccines. The patient suffered a linear skull
fracture and bilateral frontotemporal contusions. Case 2
describes a 12-year-old boy who developed syncope 10 to 15
minutes after receiving a measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine.
The patient suffered frontal cerebral contusions. Case 3
describes a 26-year-old man who developed syncope less than
3 minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,
and rubella vaccines. The patient suffered a linear nondepressed
skull fracture and contusions of the frontal and temporal
regions. Depression and cognitive deficits continued through
a follow-up 2 years after injury. Case 4 describes a 28-year-old
man who developed syncope within 1 minute after receiving a
measles vaccine. The patient suffered from a subdural and
epidural hematoma compressing the right lateral ventricle.
The patient experienced months of cognitive, behavioral,
speech, and language problems after the injury. Case 5
describes a 15-year-old boy who developed syncope less than
10 minutes after receiving a tetanus-diphtheria vaccine. The
patient suffered a massive cerebral hemorrhage from a lacerated
middle meningeal artery. Two years after the injury the patient
had a right hemiparesis. Case 6 describes an 18-year-old girl
who developed syncope 5 minutes after receiving a
tetanus-diphtheria vaccine. The patient suffered a skull
fracture, cerebral contusions, and a right frontal hematoma.

Miller and Woo (2006) describe a teenage boy who experienced
vasovagal syncope a few minutes after receiving the third dose
of a hepatitis B vaccine. The patient fell striking his head.
Upon regaining consciousness the patient developed seizures
and cardiopulmonary arrest after complaining of pain in the
chest and arms. Resuscitation attempts failed and the patient
died. Frontal lobe contusions, edema, and cerebral hemorrhage
were observed during autopsy. The fall and resulting head
injuries were determined to be the cause of death.

https://www.nap.edu/read/13164/chapter/14



Thank you,
--
Don
Scott Lurndal
2019-05-23 17:07:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
Post by Titus G
and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
Far from all of them are stupid. But all of them are wrong.
There's no such thing as a cure-all.
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/80111/a-cure-for-all-diseases-by
-reginald-hill/9780307372413
Without looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor Quirrell implied
could stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...
Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song
What song?
There's no such thing as a cure-all. Loss of consciousness is one of
many vaccine product side effects. Here's some anecdotal stories about
bad outcomes. Most patients were lucky and suffered only a /near/ death
experience.
Anecdotal evidence.
Post by D B Davis
Case 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10
minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,
All you need to get syncope is dehydration and/or low BP. As all the subsequent
injuries were related to the syncope, and the only linkage to the vaccination
is time-based, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this anecdotal evidence;
particularly any conclusions with respect to viability of any particular
vaccine.
Kevrob
2019-05-23 18:11:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
Post by Titus G
and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
Far from all of them are stupid. But all of them are wrong.
There's no such thing as a cure-all.
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/80111/a-cure-for-all-diseases-by
-reginald-hill/9780307372413
Without looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor Quirrell implied
could stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...
Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song
What song?
There's no such thing as a cure-all. Loss of consciousness is one of
many vaccine product side effects. Here's some anecdotal stories about
bad outcomes. Most patients were lucky and suffered only a /near/ death
experience.
Anecdotal evidence.
Post by D B Davis
Case 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10
minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,
All you need to get syncope is dehydration and/or low BP. As all the subsequent
injuries were related to the syncope, and the only linkage to the vaccination
is time-based, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this anecdotal evidence;
particularly any conclusions with respect to viability of any particular
vaccine.
I looked up "syncope." Fainting.

I had a smallpox shot at the age of 17, on a hot, muggy August
day, shortly before I left home for my first semester of college.
I went down like a sack of potatoes. The doctor's office was
probably pretty warm. This was the mid-70s, as getting such shots
was being phased out, but my college required it. Apparently,
this isn't uncommon among adolescents, but I didn't care for the
teasing I got from my brothers about it. I was far from the strongest
or most athletic of my peer group at school, so anything that reinforced
a "wuss image" was not welcome.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/vasovagal-syncope/symptoms-causes/syc-20350527

Some very famous athletes have regularly vomited before games.
NHL Hall-of-Fame goaltendet Glenn hall comes immediately to
mind, but for fans in the RotW, star FIFA-style footballer Lionel
Messi is known for upchucking due to "Avoid Exercise Induced Nausea
& Vomiting."

Hell, I can produce a bout of that by running around the block!
I used to be the Worst Pond Hockey Goalie

My earlier shots were done when I was very small. We got the
Sabin Oral polio vaccine as kids on sugar cube. I tolerate shots
OK as an adult, though.

https://www.statnews.com/2018/03/01/albert-sabin-polio-vaccine/

--
Kevin R
a.a #2310
Carl Fink
2019-05-24 14:55:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
I had a smallpox shot at the age of 17, on a hot, muggy August
day, shortly before I left home for my first semester of college.
I went down like a sack of potatoes. The doctor's office was
probably pretty warm. This was the mid-70s, as getting such shots
was being phased out, but my college required it. Apparently,
this isn't uncommon among adolescents, but I didn't care for the
teasing I got from my brothers about it. I was far from the strongest
or most athletic of my peer group at school, so anything that reinforced
a "wuss image" was not welcome.
Adolescents are also much more likely to faint when donating blood than
older adults. (I'm a platelet donor, which means I chat with phlebotomists a
lot.)
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read John Grant's book, Corrupted Science: http://a.co/9UsUoGu
Dedicated to ... Carl Fink!
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-05-24 18:34:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Kevrob
I had a smallpox shot at the age of 17, on a hot, muggy August
day, shortly before I left home for my first semester of college.
I went down like a sack of potatoes. The doctor's office was
probably pretty warm. This was the mid-70s, as getting such shots
was being phased out, but my college required it. Apparently,
this isn't uncommon among adolescents, but I didn't care for the
teasing I got from my brothers about it. I was far from the strongest
or most athletic of my peer group at school, so anything that reinforced
a "wuss image" was not welcome.
Adolescents are also much more likely to faint when donating blood than
older adults. (I'm a platelet donor, which means I chat with phlebotomists a
lot.)
Good for you. I donated platelets once, and remember chiefly how
cold I got (in spite of the warm blanket) and how annoying it was
that I couldn't scratch my nose.

Getting back to fainting adolescents ... when I transferred to UC
Berkeley as a junior, about the first thing I had to do was to go
to Cowell Hospital for a checkup. I was standing in line along
with a lot of other entering students, waiting to have a blood
sample drawn ... and two or three people ahead of me, this great
big strapping guy suddenly fainted. At the very thought of
having blood drawn. The staff picked him up and took him
somewhere to lie down, and I suppose he was all right eventually.
But the phlebotomist told me that yes, some people fainted at the
thought of their own blood being spilled or otherwise siphoned,
and usually it was the big tough guys. I have yet to find a use
for this phenomenon in fiction, but I might someday.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Carl Fink
2019-05-25 13:31:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Good for you. I donated platelets once, and remember chiefly how
cold I got (in spite of the warm blanket) and how annoying it was
that I couldn't scratch my nose.
I have learned that you should always dress warmly for blood donation. For
one, they chill the room even in summer because it extends the life of the
blood--they can't actually refrigerate it until you're done donating, which
for platelets can be two hours. For another, when you're warm, the blood
vessels outside the head and torso dilate, meaning the donation goes faster
and the stick is easier.

The blood center I donate at uses a one-arm system, where they withdraw
blood, process it, and pump back everything but the platelets. The donation
takes longer but you have one arm free.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Getting back to fainting adolescents ... when I transferred to UC
Berkeley as a junior, about the first thing I had to do was to go
to Cowell Hospital for a checkup. I was standing in line along
with a lot of other entering students, waiting to have a blood
sample drawn ... and two or three people ahead of me, this great
big strapping guy suddenly fainted. At the very thought of
having blood drawn. The staff picked him up and took him
somewhere to lie down, and I suppose he was all right eventually.
But the phlebotomist told me that yes, some people fainted at the
thought of their own blood being spilled or otherwise siphoned,
and usually it was the big tough guys. I have yet to find a use
for this phenomenon in fiction, but I might someday.
I have had phlebotomists tell me the same thing about blood drives at high
schools--all their fainters were athletic-looking guys. I suspect selective
memory, because published research says syncope is more common among women
(although it does support the idea that younger people faint more often than
older adults).

I started getting venous blood draws at about 12, because I was getting
allergy desensitization shots. At first they were twice a week. By the time
I was in high school I was completely past any fear I might have had of
venipuncture.
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read John Grant's book, Corrupted Science: http://a.co/9UsUoGu
Dedicated to ... Carl Fink!
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-05-25 18:24:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Good for you. I donated platelets once, and remember chiefly how
cold I got (in spite of the warm blanket) and how annoying it was
that I couldn't scratch my nose.
I have learned that you should always dress warmly for blood donation. For
one, they chill the room even in summer because it extends the life of the
blood--they can't actually refrigerate it until you're done donating, which
for platelets can be two hours. For another, when you're warm, the blood
vessels outside the head and torso dilate, meaning the donation goes faster
and the stick is easier.
The blood center I donate at uses a one-arm system, where they withdraw
blood, process it, and pump back everything but the platelets. The donation
takes longer but you have one arm free.
Great!

However, I'm 76 and they won't even let me donate whole blood any
more. I got a pin for donating 5 gallons, though, before they
made me quit.
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Getting back to fainting adolescents ... when I transferred to UC
Berkeley as a junior, about the first thing I had to do was to go
to Cowell Hospital for a checkup. I was standing in line along
with a lot of other entering students, waiting to have a blood
sample drawn ... and two or three people ahead of me, this great
big strapping guy suddenly fainted. At the very thought of
having blood drawn. The staff picked him up and took him
somewhere to lie down, and I suppose he was all right eventually.
But the phlebotomist told me that yes, some people fainted at the
thought of their own blood being spilled or otherwise siphoned,
and usually it was the big tough guys. I have yet to find a use
for this phenomenon in fiction, but I might someday.
I have had phlebotomists tell me the same thing about blood drives at high
schools--all their fainters were athletic-looking guys. I suspect selective
memory, because published research says syncope is more common among women
(although it does support the idea that younger people faint more often than
older adults).
I started getting venous blood draws at about 12, because I was getting
allergy desensitization shots. At first they were twice a week. By the time
I was in high school I was completely past any fear I might have had of
venipuncture.
Oh, yeah. What with diabetes and wonky parathyroids, I get blood
drawn quite often. I go to the same lab every time, but I
usually get a different phlebotomist, and/or she doesn't remember
me from last time, so I always say, "Most of the techs who draw
my blood prefer *this* vein," indicating one on the far right of
the inside of my right elbow. This has always been a good vein
for the purpose, and it also prevents the phlebotomist from
selecting a vein in my *left* arm. (I'm left-handed.)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Carl Fink
2019-05-25 20:51:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
However, I'm 76 and they won't even let me donate whole blood any
more. I got a pin for donating 5 gallons, though, before they
made me quit.
Good for you! I'm still only at 2 gallons, but since I can donate twice a
month I have a shot at catching up ....
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Oh, yeah. What with diabetes and wonky parathyroids, I get blood
drawn quite often ...
As a fellow diabetic, I used have that 4 times a year, but now that I'm well
controlled it's only 2. (I'm not counting finger sticks and I'm sure you
aren't either.)
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
... I go to the same lab every time, but I
usually get a different phlebotomist, and/or she doesn't remember
me from last time, so I always say, "Most of the techs who draw
my blood prefer *this* vein," indicating one on the far right of
the inside of my right elbow. This has always been a good vein
for the purpose, and it also prevents the phlebotomist from
selecting a vein in my *left* arm. (I'm left-handed.)
I always get stuck on the right side, and I'm strongly right-handed. Luckily
it doesn't affect me afterward--I've only ever had bruising once in over 40
years and over 200 sticks.
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read John Grant's book, Corrupted Science: http://a.co/9UsUoGu
Dedicated to ... Carl Fink!
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-05-25 21:24:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
However, I'm 76 and they won't even let me donate whole blood any
more. I got a pin for donating 5 gallons, though, before they
made me quit.
Good for you! I'm still only at 2 gallons, but since I can donate twice a
month I have a shot at catching up ....
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Oh, yeah. What with diabetes and wonky parathyroids, I get blood
drawn quite often ...
As a fellow diabetic, I used have that 4 times a year, but now that I'm well
controlled it's only 2. (I'm not counting finger sticks and I'm sure you
aren't either.)
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
... I go to the same lab every time, but I
usually get a different phlebotomist, and/or she doesn't remember
me from last time, so I always say, "Most of the techs who draw
my blood prefer *this* vein," indicating one on the far right of
the inside of my right elbow. This has always been a good vein
for the purpose, and it also prevents the phlebotomist from
selecting a vein in my *left* arm. (I'm left-handed.)
I always get stuck on the right side, and I'm strongly right-handed. Luckily
it doesn't affect me afterward--I've only ever had bruising once in over 40
years and over 200 sticks.
Oh, I've had little bruises from time to time, but *little* ones.
Basically, where the puncture leaks just a few drops. It's never
given me any pain, and it goes away within a week.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
D B Davis
2019-05-28 13:51:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Good for you. I donated platelets once, and remember chiefly how
cold I got (in spite of the warm blanket) and how annoying it was
that I couldn't scratch my nose.
I have learned that you should always dress warmly for blood donation. For
one, they chill the room even in summer because it extends the life of the
blood--they can't actually refrigerate it until you're done donating, which
for platelets can be two hours. For another, when you're warm, the blood
vessels outside the head and torso dilate, meaning the donation goes faster
and the stick is easier.
The blood center I donate at uses a one-arm system, where they withdraw
blood, process it, and pump back everything but the platelets. The donation
takes longer but you have one arm free.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Getting back to fainting adolescents ... when I transferred to UC
Berkeley as a junior, about the first thing I had to do was to go
to Cowell Hospital for a checkup. I was standing in line along
with a lot of other entering students, waiting to have a blood
sample drawn ... and two or three people ahead of me, this great
big strapping guy suddenly fainted. At the very thought of
having blood drawn. The staff picked him up and took him
somewhere to lie down, and I suppose he was all right eventually.
But the phlebotomist told me that yes, some people fainted at the
thought of their own blood being spilled or otherwise siphoned,
and usually it was the big tough guys. I have yet to find a use
for this phenomenon in fiction, but I might someday.
I have had phlebotomists tell me the same thing about blood drives at high
schools--all their fainters were athletic-looking guys. I suspect selective
memory, because published research says syncope is more common among women
(although it does support the idea that younger people faint more often than
older adults).
I started getting venous blood draws at about 12, because I was getting
allergy desensitization shots. At first they were twice a week. By the time
I was in high school I was completely past any fear I might have had of
venipuncture.
My low blood pressure (101/67 this morning) makes it impossible for me
to donate blood anymore. During my very last visit, higher blood
pressure donors (about a half a dozen) who sat in the chair opposite me
at the blood bank, filled their bags in a matter of minutes. Meanwhile
my blood barely oozed out. The phlebotomist kept adjusting the needle in
vain/vein to try to speed up the process and it was painful each time.
We finally reached a consensus that only a half a bag was extractable.
Although they didn't say anything untoward, my feeling that a half full
bag of blood messes with their procurement system made me feel bad.



Thank you,
--
Don
Carl Fink
2019-05-28 17:44:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
My low blood pressure (101/67 this morning) makes it impossible for me
to donate blood anymore. During my very last visit, higher blood
pressure donors (about a half a dozen) who sat in the chair opposite me
at the blood bank, filled their bags in a matter of minutes. Meanwhile
my blood barely oozed out. The phlebotomist kept adjusting the needle in
vain/vein to try to speed up the process and it was painful each time.
We finally reached a consensus that only a half a bag was extractable.
Although they didn't say anything untoward, my feeling that a half full
bag of blood messes with their procurement system made me feel bad.
I have no idea how it would work for you, but for plasma, double-RBC, or
platelet donations they actively pump the blood out (and back in). It's only
whole blood where unassisted venous pressure (plus gravity) is used.
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read John Grant's book, Corrupted Science: http://a.co/9UsUoGu
Dedicated to ... Carl Fink!
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-05-28 19:39:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
I have no idea how it would work for you, but for plasma, double-RBC, or
platelet donations they actively pump the blood out (and back in). It's only
whole blood where unassisted venous pressure (plus gravity) is used.
I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time I
donated platelets. But that was forty-ish years ago.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Carl Fink
2019-05-29 17:13:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
I have no idea how it would work for you, but for plasma, double-RBC, or
platelet donations they actively pump the blood out (and back in). It's only
whole blood where unassisted venous pressure (plus gravity) is used.
I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time I
donated platelets. But that was forty-ish years ago.
Pretty sure they did. That's how apheresis works. I didn't start platelet
donations until a few years ago, though.
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read John Grant's book, Corrupted Science: http://a.co/9UsUoGu
Dedicated to ... Carl Fink!
David DeLaney
2019-06-03 09:58:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
I have no idea how it would work for you, but for plasma, double-RBC, or
platelet donations they actively pump the blood out (and back in). It's only
whole blood where unassisted venous pressure (plus gravity) is used.
I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time I
donated platelets. But that was forty-ish years ago.
Pretty sure they did. That's how apheresis works. I didn't start platelet
donations until a few years ago, though.
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.
(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for the
actual IV-dripping-in part.

The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of the
necessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...

Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly less
temperature-sensitive and off-balance
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2019-06-03 12:49:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 03 Jun 2019 04:58:25 -0500, David DeLaney
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
I have no idea how it would work for you, but for plasma, double-RBC, or
platelet donations they actively pump the blood out (and back in). It's only
whole blood where unassisted venous pressure (plus gravity) is used.
I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time I
donated platelets. But that was forty-ish years ago.
Pretty sure they did. That's how apheresis works. I didn't start platelet
donations until a few years ago, though.
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.
(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for the
actual IV-dripping-in part.
The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of the
necessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...
Gosh. Hope you get the underlying issue sorted. I'm impressed you've not
only been moving around but wisecracking in the usual way here,
generally wit is one of the things that goes when you're short on oxygen
transport!

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"How fleeting are all human passions compared
with the massive continuity of ducks"
-- Dorothy L Sayers, _Gaudy Night_
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-06-03 12:54:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
I have no idea how it would work for you, but for plasma, double-RBC, or
platelet donations they actively pump the blood out (and back in). It's only
whole blood where unassisted venous pressure (plus gravity) is used.
I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time I
donated platelets. But that was forty-ish years ago.
Pretty sure they did. That's how apheresis works. I didn't start platelet
donations until a few years ago, though.
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.
(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for the
actual IV-dripping-in part.
The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of the
necessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...
Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly less
temperature-sensitive and off-balance
Well, good!

I don't know how you were walking around like that either, but I
don't have an M.D. after my name.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Carl Fink
2019-06-04 13:36:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.
(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for the
actual IV-dripping-in part.
The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of the
necessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...
Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly less
temperature-sensitive and off-balance
We have a lot of redundant blood. That's how folks like Dorothy and I get
away with donation. Glad you feel better.

2 units of red cells? They almost never transfuse whole blood any more.
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read John Grant's book, Corrupted Science: http://a.co/9UsUoGu
Dedicated to ... Carl Fink!
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-06-04 14:00:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by David DeLaney
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.
(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for the
actual IV-dripping-in part.
The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of the
necessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...
Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly less
temperature-sensitive and off-balance
We have a lot of redundant blood. That's how folks like Dorothy and I get
away with donation. Glad you feel better.
Well ... they won't let me donate any more. (I'm turning 77 this
week.) But before I stopped, I got my little certificate for
having donated five gallons, so I feel I've done my bit.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Carl Fink
2019-06-04 16:29:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
Post by David DeLaney
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.
(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for the
actual IV-dripping-in part.
The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of the
necessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...
Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly less
temperature-sensitive and off-balance
We have a lot of redundant blood. That's how folks like Dorothy and I get
away with donation. Glad you feel better.
Well ... they won't let me donate any more. (I'm turning 77 this
week.) But before I stopped, I got my little certificate for
having donated five gallons, so I feel I've done my bit.
That's what I was referring to--you mentioned the five gallon thing earlier.
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read John Grant's book, Corrupted Science: http://a.co/9UsUoGu
Dedicated to ... Carl Fink!
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-06-04 17:16:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
Post by David DeLaney
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.
(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for the
actual IV-dripping-in part.
The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of the
necessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...
Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly less
temperature-sensitive and off-balance
We have a lot of redundant blood. That's how folks like Dorothy and I get
away with donation. Glad you feel better.
Well ... they won't let me donate any more. (I'm turning 77 this
week.) But before I stopped, I got my little certificate for
having donated five gallons, so I feel I've done my bit.
That's what I was referring to--you mentioned the five gallon thing earlier.
Yeah ... but mind you, it was one pint at a time every couple of
months. :)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Carl Fink
2019-06-04 17:47:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
That's what I was referring to--you mentioned the five gallon thing earlier.
Yeah ... but mind you, it was one pint at a time every couple of
months. :)
You mean they didn't take 2/3 of your blood supply every time? Wow, my
program is much more stringent.
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read John Grant's book, Corrupted Science: http://a.co/9UsUoGu
Dedicated to ... Carl Fink!
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-06-04 18:35:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
That's what I was referring to--you mentioned the five gallon thing earlier.
Yeah ... but mind you, it was one pint at a time every couple of
months. :)
You mean they didn't take 2/3 of your blood supply every time? Wow, my
program is much more stringent.
No - o - o ... I suspect that if they had, I wouldn't have come
back.

(for one reason or another)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Lynn McGuire
2019-06-04 19:34:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
Post by David DeLaney
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.
(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for the
actual IV-dripping-in part.
The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of the
necessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...
Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly less
temperature-sensitive and off-balance
We have a lot of redundant blood. That's how folks like Dorothy and I get
away with donation. Glad you feel better.
Well ... they won't let me donate any more. (I'm turning 77 this
week.) But before I stopped, I got my little certificate for
having donated five gallons, so I feel I've done my bit.
I have the five gallon coffee cup. I did sneak a six gallon coffee cup
out before they made me quit but promptly dropped it on a tile floor.

Lynn
David DeLaney
2019-06-06 14:55:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by David DeLaney
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.
(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for the
actual IV-dripping-in part.
The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of the
necessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...
Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly less
temperature-sensitive and off-balance
We have a lot of redundant blood. That's how folks like Dorothy and I get
away with donation. Glad you feel better.
2 units of red cells? They almost never transfuse whole blood any more.
I asked that myself, and yes, packed red corpuscles.

Dave, then Monday i got infused with IRON. ... any resultant powers are taking
their own sweet time showing up, though
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Lynn McGuire
2019-06-06 18:16:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Carl Fink
Post by David DeLaney
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.
(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for the
actual IV-dripping-in part.
The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of the
necessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...
Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly less
temperature-sensitive and off-balance
We have a lot of redundant blood. That's how folks like Dorothy and I get
away with donation. Glad you feel better.
2 units of red cells? They almost never transfuse whole blood any more.
I asked that myself, and yes, packed red corpuscles.
Dave, then Monday i got infused with IRON. ... any resultant powers are taking
their own sweet time showing up, though
I note that those special powers only show up in 12 to 29 year olds in
the documentary texts. You are a little ... beyond that age.

Lynn
Lynn McGuire
2019-06-04 19:36:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
I have no idea how it would work for you, but for plasma, double-RBC, or
platelet donations they actively pump the blood out (and back in). It's only
whole blood where unassisted venous pressure (plus gravity) is used.
I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time I
donated platelets. But that was forty-ish years ago.
Pretty sure they did. That's how apheresis works. I didn't start platelet
donations until a few years ago, though.
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.
(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for the
actual IV-dripping-in part.
The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of the
necessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...
Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly less
temperature-sensitive and off-balance
Dude ! Anemia is not a good thing for a long life.

My mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since a
failed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.

Lynn
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-06-04 20:23:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
I have no idea how it would work for you, but for plasma, double-RBC, or
platelet donations they actively pump the blood out (and back in).
It's only
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
whole blood where unassisted venous pressure (plus gravity) is used.
I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time I
donated platelets. But that was forty-ish years ago.
Pretty sure they did. That's how apheresis works. I didn't start platelet
donations until a few years ago, though.
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.
(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for the
actual IV-dripping-in part.
The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of the
necessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...
Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly less
temperature-sensitive and off-balance
Dude ! Anemia is not a good thing for a long life.
My mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since a
failed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.
She, and you, have my profoundest sympathies. I tripped and fell onto
a concrete landing last Friday, and while I was fortunate enough not
to break any major or even minor bones, I've been feeling fragile ever
since, and *both* my hands hurt, not just the one I stubbed on
the concrete. (You should have seen it the day after: the middle
fingertip swelled to twice its natural size and turned purple.
It looked like a ripe grape. Getting better now.)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Lynn McGuire
2019-06-04 21:11:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
I have no idea how it would work for you, but for plasma, double-RBC, or
platelet donations they actively pump the blood out (and back in).
It's only
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
whole blood where unassisted venous pressure (plus gravity) is used.
I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time I
donated platelets. But that was forty-ish years ago.
Pretty sure they did. That's how apheresis works. I didn't start platelet
donations until a few years ago, though.
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.
(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for the
actual IV-dripping-in part.
The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of the
necessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...
Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly less
temperature-sensitive and off-balance
Dude ! Anemia is not a good thing for a long life.
My mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since a
failed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.
She, and you, have my profoundest sympathies. I tripped and fell onto
a concrete landing last Friday, and while I was fortunate enough not
to break any major or even minor bones, I've been feeling fragile ever
since, and *both* my hands hurt, not just the one I stubbed on
the concrete. (You should have seen it the day after: the middle
fingertip swelled to twice its natural size and turned purple.
It looked like a ripe grape. Getting better now.)
I've decided that one does not bounce anymore after age 50. Take steps
carefully !

Lynn
Joy Beeson
2019-06-05 04:20:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 4 Jun 2019 16:11:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
I've decided that one does not bounce anymore after age 50. Take steps
carefully !
I have been shortening all my skirts.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
David DeLaney
2019-06-06 15:04:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joy Beeson
On Tue, 4 Jun 2019 16:11:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
I've decided that one does not bounce anymore after age 50. Take steps
carefully !
I have been shortening all my skirts.
My issue is not so much with the falling - yeah, it's a shock and I'll be
achy and bruised for a couple days and if I'm LUCKY that exact same rib won't
crack again, but most of the time I manage to land on my back ... which is
padded some.

My issue is that I can't get up by myself any more; my ankles don't bend, and
my knees are not at all strong in lifting configuration, though they stand
straight pretty well. I need my butt about 2 feet off the floor before I can
curl up from there to standing, any more.

Dave, don't get old, kids

ps: kneeling, and squatting, are right out as well :(
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-06-06 16:58:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Joy Beeson
On Tue, 4 Jun 2019 16:11:59 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
I've decided that one does not bounce anymore after age 50. Take steps
carefully !
I have been shortening all my skirts.
My issue is not so much with the falling - yeah, it's a shock and I'll be
achy and bruised for a couple days and if I'm LUCKY that exact same rib won't
crack again, but most of the time I manage to land on my back ... which is
padded some.
My issue is that I can't get up by myself any more; my ankles don't bend, and
my knees are not at all strong in lifting configuration, though they stand
straight pretty well. I need my butt about 2 feet off the floor before I can
curl up from there to standing, any more.
Yeah. When I fell last Friday (finger looking better, still
feeling fragile), I had to call for Hal to help me get up ... but
although when we were young he could pick me up and carry me
around, he can't now, and I had to get my feet down a couple of
steps, so that they were under me, before I could pull myself up
on his outstretched arm. My arms are stronger than my legs, but
that's not saying much.
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, don't get old, kids
Yeah, but consider the alternative. ("With proper help," said
Humpty Dumpty, "you might have left off at seven.") I figure I
need to live at least another seven years, by which time my
grandson will be eighteen and WON'T NEED DAY CARE.
Post by David DeLaney
ps: kneeling, and squatting, are right out as well :(
I can still get down on hands and knees if Absolutely Necessary
(like, something fell underneath the bed and I have to retrieve
it), but the acrobatics I have to go through to get up again
are ridiculous to behold (think of a fallen sloth trying to get
back up onto his tree).
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dimensional Traveler
2019-06-06 05:38:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
I have no idea how it would work for you, but for plasma, double-RBC, or
platelet donations they actively pump the blood out (and back in).
It's only
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
whole blood where unassisted venous pressure (plus gravity) is used.
I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time I
donated platelets. But that was forty-ish years ago.
Pretty sure they did. That's how apheresis works. I didn't start platelet
donations until a few years ago, though.
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.
(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for the
actual IV-dripping-in part.
The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of the
necessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...
Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly less
temperature-sensitive and off-balance
Dude ! Anemia is not a good thing for a long life.
My mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since a
failed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.
She, and you, have my profoundest sympathies. I tripped and fell onto
a concrete landing last Friday, and while I was fortunate enough not
to break any major or even minor bones, I've been feeling fragile ever
since, and *both* my hands hurt, not just the one I stubbed on
the concrete. (You should have seen it the day after: the middle
fingertip swelled to twice its natural size and turned purple.
It looked like a ripe grape. Getting better now.)
I've decided that one does not bounce anymore after age 50. Take steps
carefully !
Most people learn that by the time they reach 30. ;)
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Lynn McGuire
2019-06-06 18:22:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
I have no idea how it would work for you, but for plasma, double-RBC, or
platelet donations they actively pump the blood out (and back in).
It's only
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
whole blood where unassisted venous pressure (plus gravity) is used.
I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time I
donated platelets.  But that was forty-ish years ago.
Pretty sure they did. That's how apheresis works. I didn't start platelet
donations until a few years ago, though.
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.
(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for the
actual IV-dripping-in part.
The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of the
necessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...
Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly less
   temperature-sensitive and off-balance
Dude !  Anemia is not a good thing for a long life.
My mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since a
failed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries.  Not good at age 77.
She, and you, have my profoundest sympathies.  I tripped and fell onto
a concrete landing last Friday, and while I was fortunate enough not
to break any major or even minor bones, I've been feeling fragile ever
since, and *both* my hands hurt, not just the one I stubbed on
the concrete.  (You should have seen it the day after: the middle
fingertip swelled to twice its natural size and turned purple.
It looked like a ripe grape.  Getting better now.)
I've decided that one does not bounce anymore after age 50.  Take steps
carefully !
Most people learn that by the time they reach 30.  ;)
30 is just the first stage of not bouncing anymore. 50 is the final
stage. I managed to fall last Dec 30 with my left leg under my right
hip which was painful beyond belief but I did not break anything (I was
and still am 58).

Of course, I shattered my right humerus one inch above the elbow at the
age of 5. So I disproved the rule. And, six weeks of traction made me
slothful for life !

Lynn
J. Clarke
2019-06-06 21:05:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:22:23 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Carl Fink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
I have no idea how it would work for you, but for plasma, double-RBC, or
platelet donations they actively pump the blood out (and back in).
It's only
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
whole blood where unassisted venous pressure (plus gravity) is used.
I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time I
donated platelets.  But that was forty-ish years ago.
Pretty sure they did. That's how apheresis works. I didn't start platelet
donations until a few years ago, though.
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.
(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for the
actual IV-dripping-in part.
The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of the
necessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...
Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly less
   temperature-sensitive and off-balance
Dude !  Anemia is not a good thing for a long life.
My mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since a
failed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries.  Not good at age 77.
She, and you, have my profoundest sympathies.  I tripped and fell onto
a concrete landing last Friday, and while I was fortunate enough not
to break any major or even minor bones, I've been feeling fragile ever
since, and *both* my hands hurt, not just the one I stubbed on
the concrete.  (You should have seen it the day after: the middle
fingertip swelled to twice its natural size and turned purple.
It looked like a ripe grape.  Getting better now.)
I've decided that one does not bounce anymore after age 50.  Take steps
carefully !
Most people learn that by the time they reach 30.  ;)
30 is just the first stage of not bouncing anymore. 50 is the final
stage. I managed to fall last Dec 30 with my left leg under my right
hip which was painful beyond belief but I did not break anything (I was
and still am 58).
Of course, I shattered my right humerus one inch above the elbow at the
age of 5. So I disproved the rule. And, six weeks of traction made me
slothful for life !
Ten years ago I dumped my motorcycle on the Trans Labrador and I'm not
sure what all I damaged. Got back on and rode another 400 miles
before I dumped it again, then rode home. I would have been 57.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Lynn
Dimensional Traveler
2019-06-06 22:41:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
I have no idea how it would work for you, but for plasma, double-RBC, or
platelet donations they actively pump the blood out (and back in).
It's only
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
whole blood where unassisted venous pressure (plus gravity) is used.
I don't think they pumped my blood in or out, the one time I
donated platelets. But that was forty-ish years ago.
Pretty sure they did. That's how apheresis works. I didn't start platelet
donations until a few years ago, though.
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.
(Like, I found out Thursday.) It went slowly, around 9:30am-3:30pm for the
actual IV-dripping-in part.
The doctor told me I had been walking around with something like 1/3 of the
necessary, and he couldn't quite see how I _had_ been walking around...
Dave, I feel a good deal less exhausted now, along with slightly less
temperature-sensitive and off-balance
Dude ! Anemia is not a good thing for a long life.
My mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since a
failed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.
She, and you, have my profoundest sympathies. I tripped and fell onto
a concrete landing last Friday, and while I was fortunate enough not
to break any major or even minor bones, I've been feeling fragile ever
since, and *both* my hands hurt, not just the one I stubbed on
the concrete. (You should have seen it the day after: the middle
fingertip swelled to twice its natural size and turned purple.
It looked like a ripe grape. Getting better now.)
I've decided that one does not bounce anymore after age 50. Take steps
carefully !
Most people learn that by the time they reach 30. ;)
30 is just the first stage of not bouncing anymore. 50 is the final
stage. I managed to fall last Dec 30 with my left leg under my right
hip which was painful beyond belief but I did not break anything (I was
and still am 58).
Of course, I shattered my right humerus one inch above the elbow at the
age of 5. So I disproved the rule. And, six weeks of traction made me
slothful for life !
When I was somewhere between 10 and 14 I was on a hike where there was a
dead, fallen tree in a clearing. Lots of branches parallel to the
ground only a few feet apart. Being of the appropriate age and gender
my companions and I proceeded to climb all over it. I was standing on
the seconded highest branch, my hands resting on the highest at about
waist height, probably about twenty feet up when the branch under my
feed broke.

Think human Pachinko game.

I don't remember the falling part but I do remember after reaching the
ground hearing one of my companions voices calling for my father (who
was the chaperone for this little outing) fading. Presumably as he was
running up the trail to fetch him. No sight or tactile sensation.

A short time later I came to and was able to get up and walk normally.
No broken bones or any other serious injuries.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
David DeLaney
2019-06-06 14:59:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by David DeLaney
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.
Dude ! Anemia is not a good thing for a long life.
I know, right!?

I have NO idea what happened, and if my doctor does he hasn't let me know
yet. (I did get a call from my doctor's office Monday with them mildly frantic
about trying to get ahold of me and let me know it needed to be done; I gently
told them the tasty tasty boold had been imported Friday and I was about an
hour away from getting irony in liquid form as well. They calmed down. I did
not remember to ask if they knew why it had become necessary.)
Post by Lynn McGuire
My mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since a
failed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.
Not really good at any age, I'd think, but yeah, at 77 almost any procedure
has a quantity of not-good attached.

Dave, I will be mirror digits myself this year, but not 77
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-06-06 17:01:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by David DeLaney
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.
Dude ! Anemia is not a good thing for a long life.
I know, right!?
I have NO idea what happened, and if my doctor does he hasn't let me know
yet. (I did get a call from my doctor's office Monday with them mildly frantic
about trying to get ahold of me and let me know it needed to be done; I gently
told them the tasty tasty boold had been imported Friday and I was about an
hour away from getting irony in liquid form as well. They calmed down. I did
not remember to ask if they knew why it had become necessary.)
Post by Lynn McGuire
My mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since a
failed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.
Not really good at any age, I'd think, but yeah, at 77 almost any procedure
has a quantity of not-good attached.
Dave, I will be mirror digits myself this year, but not 77
I just turned 77 today. Hal asked me what I would like for my
birthday, and I said, "I would like you to get the stuff from the
back of the cab (assorted emergency supplies, which have been
sitting around the house for a couple months so the grandson
could ride in the back) OFF THE LIVING ROOM FLOOR ALREADY." He
said he would.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Lynn McGuire
2019-06-06 18:23:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by David DeLaney
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood infused.
Dude ! Anemia is not a good thing for a long life.
I know, right!?
I have NO idea what happened, and if my doctor does he hasn't let me know
yet. (I did get a call from my doctor's office Monday with them mildly frantic
about trying to get ahold of me and let me know it needed to be done; I gently
told them the tasty tasty boold had been imported Friday and I was about an
hour away from getting irony in liquid form as well. They calmed down. I did
not remember to ask if they knew why it had become necessary.)
Post by Lynn McGuire
My mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since a
failed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.
Not really good at any age, I'd think, but yeah, at 77 almost any procedure
has a quantity of not-good attached.
Dave, I will be mirror digits myself this year, but not 77
I just turned 77 today. Hal asked me what I would like for my
birthday, and I said, "I would like you to get the stuff from the
back of the cab (assorted emergency supplies, which have been
sitting around the house for a couple months so the grandson
could ride in the back) OFF THE LIVING ROOM FLOOR ALREADY." He
said he would.
Heh. Happy Birthday ! My mother is 77 and has been in a hospital for
8+ weeks now so, stay away from hospitals, people die in those places.

Lynn
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-06-06 18:56:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by David DeLaney
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood
infused.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dude ! Anemia is not a good thing for a long life.
I know, right!?
I have NO idea what happened, and if my doctor does he hasn't let me know
yet. (I did get a call from my doctor's office Monday with them
mildly frantic
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
about trying to get ahold of me and let me know it needed to be done;
I gently
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
told them the tasty tasty boold had been imported Friday and I was about an
hour away from getting irony in liquid form as well. They calmed down. I did
not remember to ask if they knew why it had become necessary.)
Post by Lynn McGuire
My mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since a
failed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.
Not really good at any age, I'd think, but yeah, at 77 almost any procedure
has a quantity of not-good attached.
Dave, I will be mirror digits myself this year, but not 77
I just turned 77 today. Hal asked me what I would like for my
birthday, and I said, "I would like you to get the stuff from the
back of the cab (assorted emergency supplies, which have been
sitting around the house for a couple months so the grandson
could ride in the back) OFF THE LIVING ROOM FLOOR ALREADY." He
said he would.
Heh. Happy Birthday ! My mother is 77 and has been in a hospital for
8+ weeks now,
Ooooh. Please wish her better for me.
Post by David DeLaney
so stay away from hospitals, people die in those places.
When they don't die at home.

I kind of like hospitals; they are clean and efficient and
somebody else has to do the housework.

But the last time I was in, to have a rambunctious parathyroid
removed, they had me stay overnight and the kitchen was advised
that I was diabetic and needed a low-carb breakfast.

Their idea of a low-carb breakfast (they conveniently included
the carb counts for every item) was about 65. My idea of a
low-carb breakfast is 10. I managed to pick and choose a
selection that was safe to eat.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Lynn McGuire
2019-06-06 20:33:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by David DeLaney
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood
infused.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dude ! Anemia is not a good thing for a long life.
I know, right!?
I have NO idea what happened, and if my doctor does he hasn't let me know
yet. (I did get a call from my doctor's office Monday with them
mildly frantic
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
about trying to get ahold of me and let me know it needed to be done;
I gently
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
told them the tasty tasty boold had been imported Friday and I was about an
hour away from getting irony in liquid form as well. They calmed down. I did
not remember to ask if they knew why it had become necessary.)
Post by Lynn McGuire
My mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since a
failed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.
Not really good at any age, I'd think, but yeah, at 77 almost any procedure
has a quantity of not-good attached.
Dave, I will be mirror digits myself this year, but not 77
I just turned 77 today. Hal asked me what I would like for my
birthday, and I said, "I would like you to get the stuff from the
back of the cab (assorted emergency supplies, which have been
sitting around the house for a couple months so the grandson
could ride in the back) OFF THE LIVING ROOM FLOOR ALREADY." He
said he would.
Heh. Happy Birthday ! My mother is 77 and has been in a hospital for
8+ weeks now,
Ooooh. Please wish her better for me.
Post by David DeLaney
so stay away from hospitals, people die in those places.
When they don't die at home.
I kind of like hospitals; they are clean and efficient and
somebody else has to do the housework.
But the last time I was in, to have a rambunctious parathyroid
removed, they had me stay overnight and the kitchen was advised
that I was diabetic and needed a low-carb breakfast.
Their idea of a low-carb breakfast (they conveniently included
the carb counts for every item) was about 65. My idea of a
low-carb breakfast is 10. I managed to pick and choose a
selection that was safe to eat.
When I had heart surgery last year, I had them bring me scrambled eggs
for breakfast. They brought me scrambled egg whites. Freaking
horrible. Just the look of them was nasty.

Lynn
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-06-06 20:56:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by David DeLaney
... I had an unexpected appointment Friday to have 2 units of blood
infused.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dude ! Anemia is not a good thing for a long life.
I know, right!?
I have NO idea what happened, and if my doctor does he hasn't let me know
yet. (I did get a call from my doctor's office Monday with them
mildly frantic
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
about trying to get ahold of me and let me know it needed to be done;
I gently
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
told them the tasty tasty boold had been imported Friday and I was about an
hour away from getting irony in liquid form as well. They calmed
down. I did
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
not remember to ask if they knew why it had become necessary.)
Post by Lynn McGuire
My mother has has had 14 or 15 pints infused in the last 8 weeks since a
failed hip surgery and two subsequent surgeries. Not good at age 77.
Not really good at any age, I'd think, but yeah, at 77 almost any procedure
has a quantity of not-good attached.
Dave, I will be mirror digits myself this year, but not 77
I just turned 77 today. Hal asked me what I would like for my
birthday, and I said, "I would like you to get the stuff from the
back of the cab (assorted emergency supplies, which have been
sitting around the house for a couple months so the grandson
could ride in the back) OFF THE LIVING ROOM FLOOR ALREADY." He
said he would.
Heh. Happy Birthday ! My mother is 77 and has been in a hospital for
8+ weeks now,
Ooooh. Please wish her better for me.
Post by David DeLaney
so stay away from hospitals, people die in those places.
When they don't die at home.
I kind of like hospitals; they are clean and efficient and
somebody else has to do the housework.
But the last time I was in, to have a rambunctious parathyroid
removed, they had me stay overnight and the kitchen was advised
that I was diabetic and needed a low-carb breakfast.
Their idea of a low-carb breakfast (they conveniently included
the carb counts for every item) was about 65. My idea of a
low-carb breakfast is 10. I managed to pick and choose a
selection that was safe to eat.
When I had heart surgery last year, I had them bring me scrambled eggs
for breakfast. They brought me scrambled egg whites. Freaking
horrible. Just the look of them was nasty.
Yes, sounds like it. Were you on a low-fat diet? The yolks of
eggs are mostly fat; the whites mostly protein.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Lynn McGuire
2019-06-06 22:06:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 6/6/2019 3:56 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
...
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
When I had heart surgery last year, I had them bring me scrambled eggs
for breakfast. They brought me scrambled egg whites. Freaking
horrible. Just the look of them was nasty.
Yes, sounds like it. Were you on a low-fat diet? The yolks of
eggs are mostly fat; the whites mostly protein.
No idea. My heart is all screwed up (turns out your right coronary
artery should be eight inches long, mine is two inches, who knew ?).
You can poke a finger down my left coronary artery, it is so big. And
the back side of my heart is dead (no blood flow) since the right
coronary artery does not feed it. But my heart is only 30% enlarged.

Still walking around at age 58 and proud of it. But they did want me to
lose 40 lbs. And still do.

Lynn
D B Davis
2019-05-23 18:28:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
Post by Titus G
and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
Far from all of them are stupid. But all of them are wrong.
There's no such thing as a cure-all.
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/80111/a-cure-for-all-diseases-by
-reginald-hill/9780307372413
Without looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor Quirrell implied
could stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...
Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song
What song?
There's no such thing as a cure-all. Loss of consciousness is one of
many vaccine product side effects. Here's some anecdotal stories about
bad outcomes. Most patients were lucky and suffered only a /near/ death
experience.
Anecdotal evidence.
Post by D B Davis
Case 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10
minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,
All you need to get syncope is dehydration and/or low BP. As all the subsequent
injuries were related to the syncope, and the only linkage to the vaccination
is time-based, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this anecdotal evidence;
particularly any conclusions with respect to viability of any particular
vaccine.
The causality conclusion appears near the bottom of the link that got
deleted. https://www.nap.edu/read/13164/chapter/14

The latency, of 15 minutes or less, between injection of a
vaccine and the development of syncope in many of the cases
described above suggests vasovagal syncope as the mechanism.

The committee assesses the mechanistic evidence
regarding an association between the injection
of a vaccine and syncope as strong based on 35
cases presenting definitive clinical evidence.

Causality Conclusion

Conclusion 12.3: The evidence convincingly supports a
causal relationship between the injection of a vaccine
and syncope.



Thank you,
--
Don
Dimensional Traveler
2019-05-23 20:02:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
Post by Titus G
and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
Far from all of them are stupid. But all of them are wrong.
There's no such thing as a cure-all.
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/80111/a-cure-for-all-diseases-by
-reginald-hill/9780307372413
Without looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor Quirrell implied
could stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...
Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song
What song?
There's no such thing as a cure-all. Loss of consciousness is one of
many vaccine product side effects. Here's some anecdotal stories about
bad outcomes. Most patients were lucky and suffered only a /near/ death
experience.
Anecdotal evidence.
Post by D B Davis
Case 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10
minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,
All you need to get syncope is dehydration and/or low BP. As all the subsequent
injuries were related to the syncope, and the only linkage to the vaccination
is time-based, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this anecdotal evidence;
particularly any conclusions with respect to viability of any particular
vaccine.
The causality conclusion appears near the bottom of the link that got
deleted. https://www.nap.edu/read/13164/chapter/14
The latency, of 15 minutes or less, between injection of a
vaccine and the development of syncope in many of the cases
described above suggests vasovagal syncope as the mechanism.
The committee assesses the mechanistic evidence
regarding an association between the injection
of a vaccine and syncope as strong based on 35
cases presenting definitive clinical evidence.
Causality Conclusion
Conclusion 12.3: The evidence convincingly supports a
causal relationship between the injection of a vaccine
and syncope.
So stay lying down for 15 minutes after getting a shot.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-05-23 20:45:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by D B Davis
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
Post by Titus G
and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
Far from all of them are stupid. But all of them are wrong.
There's no such thing as a cure-all.
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/80111/a-cure-for-all-diseases-by
-reginald-hill/9780307372413
Without looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor
Quirrell implied
Post by D B Davis
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
could stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...
Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song
What song?
There's no such thing as a cure-all. Loss of consciousness is one of
many vaccine product side effects. Here's some anecdotal stories about
bad outcomes. Most patients were lucky and suffered only a /near/ death
experience.
Anecdotal evidence.
Post by D B Davis
Case 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10
minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,
All you need to get syncope is dehydration and/or low BP. As all
the subsequent
Post by D B Davis
Post by Scott Lurndal
injuries were related to the syncope, and the only linkage to the vaccination
is time-based, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this anecdotal evidence;
particularly any conclusions with respect to viability of any particular
vaccine.
The causality conclusion appears near the bottom of the link that got
deleted. https://www.nap.edu/read/13164/chapter/14
The latency, of 15 minutes or less, between injection of a
vaccine and the development of syncope in many of the cases
described above suggests vasovagal syncope as the mechanism.
The committee assesses the mechanistic evidence
regarding an association between the injection
of a vaccine and syncope as strong based on 35
cases presenting definitive clinical evidence.
Causality Conclusion
Conclusion 12.3: The evidence convincingly supports a
causal relationship between the injection of a vaccine
and syncope.
So stay lying down for 15 minutes after getting a shot.
And drink water.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dimensional Traveler
2019-05-23 22:19:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Post by D B Davis
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
Post by Titus G
and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
Far from all of them are stupid. But all of them are wrong.
There's no such thing as a cure-all.
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/80111/a-cure-for-all-diseases-by
-reginald-hill/9780307372413
Without looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor
Quirrell implied
Post by D B Davis
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
could stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...
Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song
What song?
There's no such thing as a cure-all. Loss of consciousness is one of
many vaccine product side effects. Here's some anecdotal stories about
bad outcomes. Most patients were lucky and suffered only a /near/ death
experience.
Anecdotal evidence.
Post by D B Davis
Case 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10
minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,
All you need to get syncope is dehydration and/or low BP. As all
the subsequent
Post by D B Davis
Post by Scott Lurndal
injuries were related to the syncope, and the only linkage to the vaccination
is time-based, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this anecdotal evidence;
particularly any conclusions with respect to viability of any particular
vaccine.
The causality conclusion appears near the bottom of the link that got
deleted. https://www.nap.edu/read/13164/chapter/14
The latency, of 15 minutes or less, between injection of a
vaccine and the development of syncope in many of the cases
described above suggests vasovagal syncope as the mechanism.
The committee assesses the mechanistic evidence
regarding an association between the injection
of a vaccine and syncope as strong based on 35
cases presenting definitive clinical evidence.
Causality Conclusion
Conclusion 12.3: The evidence convincingly supports a
causal relationship between the injection of a vaccine
and syncope.
So stay lying down for 15 minutes after getting a shot.
And drink water.
Treat it like a blood donation, demand a glass of juice and a cookie! :)
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Gary R. Schmidt
2019-05-24 11:50:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Post by D B Davis
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
Post by Titus G
and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
Far from all of them are stupid. But all of them are wrong.
There's no such thing as a cure-all.
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/80111/a-cure-for-all-diseases-by
   -reginald-hill/9780307372413
Without looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor
Quirrell implied
Post by D B Davis
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by D B Davis
could stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...
Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song
What song?
There's no such thing as a cure-all. Loss of consciousness is one of
many vaccine product side effects. Here's some anecdotal stories about
bad outcomes. Most patients were lucky and suffered only a /near/ death
experience.
Anecdotal evidence.
Post by D B Davis
     Case 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10
     minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,
All you need to get syncope is dehydration and/or low BP.   As all
the subsequent
Post by D B Davis
Post by Scott Lurndal
injuries were related to the syncope, and the only linkage to the vaccination
is time-based, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this anecdotal evidence;
particularly any conclusions with respect to viability of any particular
vaccine.
The causality conclusion appears near the bottom of the link that got
deleted. https://www.nap.edu/read/13164/chapter/14
      The latency, of 15 minutes or less, between injection of a
      vaccine and the development of syncope in many of the cases
      described above suggests vasovagal syncope as the mechanism.
          The committee assesses the mechanistic evidence
          regarding an association between the injection
          of a vaccine and syncope as strong based on 35
          cases presenting definitive clinical evidence.
      Causality Conclusion
          Conclusion 12.3: The evidence convincingly supports a
          causal relationship between the injection of a vaccine
          and syncope.
So stay lying down for 15 minutes after getting a shot.
And drink water.
Treat it like a blood donation, demand a glass of juice and a cookie!  :)
Just had my FluVax shot at work today - the nurse had lollipops! :->

Cheers,
Gary B-)
--
When men talk to their friends, they insult each other.
They don't really mean it.
When women talk to their friends, they compliment each other.
They don't mean it either.
Robert Carnegie
2019-05-23 21:43:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
Post by Titus G
and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
Far from all of them are stupid. But all of them are wrong.
There's no such thing as a cure-all.
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/80111/a-cure-for-all-diseases-by
-reginald-hill/9780307372413
Without looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor Quirrell implied
could stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...
Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song
What song?
There's no such thing as a cure-all. Loss of consciousness is one of
many vaccine product side effects. Here's some anecdotal stories about
bad outcomes. Most patients were lucky and suffered only a /near/ death
experience.
Anecdotal evidence.
Post by D B Davis
Case 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10
minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,
All you need to get syncope is dehydration and/or low BP. As all the subsequent
injuries were related to the syncope, and the only linkage to the vaccination
is time-based, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this anecdotal evidence;
particularly any conclusions with respect to viability of any particular
vaccine.
The causality conclusion appears near the bottom of the link that got
deleted. https://www.nap.edu/read/13164/chapter/14
The latency, of 15 minutes or less, between injection of a
vaccine and the development of syncope in many of the cases
described above suggests vasovagal syncope as the mechanism.
The committee assesses the mechanistic evidence
regarding an association between the injection
of a vaccine and syncope as strong based on 35
cases presenting definitive clinical evidence.
Causality Conclusion
Conclusion 12.3: The evidence convincingly supports a
causal relationship between the injection of a vaccine
and syncope.
Fainting isn't the only cause of falling down,
especially in children. It's cute that these
are specifically cases that fell down and got hurt,
sometimes pretty badly, and the one saved for last died.
Sufficiently cute that my made-it-up sense is tingling
again, but I leave that to more experienced science
readers to decide. Indeed, legitimate, theoretically
unbiased science papers still follow Sturgeon's Law
of ninety percent being of poor quality.
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2019-05-24 08:22:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 23 May 2019 14:43:04 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
Post by Titus G
and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
Far from all of them are stupid. But all of them are wrong.
There's no such thing as a cure-all.
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/80111/a-cure-for-all-diseases-by
-reginald-hill/9780307372413
Without looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor Quirrell implied
could stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...
Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song
What song?
There's no such thing as a cure-all. Loss of consciousness is one of
many vaccine product side effects. Here's some anecdotal stories about
bad outcomes. Most patients were lucky and suffered only a /near/ death
experience.
Anecdotal evidence.
Post by D B Davis
Case 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10
minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,
All you need to get syncope is dehydration and/or low BP. As all the subsequent
injuries were related to the syncope, and the only linkage to the vaccination
is time-based, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this anecdotal evidence;
particularly any conclusions with respect to viability of any particular
vaccine.
The causality conclusion appears near the bottom of the link that got
deleted. https://www.nap.edu/read/13164/chapter/14
The latency, of 15 minutes or less, between injection of a
vaccine and the development of syncope in many of the cases
described above suggests vasovagal syncope as the mechanism.
The committee assesses the mechanistic evidence
regarding an association between the injection
of a vaccine and syncope as strong based on 35
cases presenting definitive clinical evidence.
Causality Conclusion
Conclusion 12.3: The evidence convincingly supports a
causal relationship between the injection of a vaccine
and syncope.
Fainting isn't the only cause of falling down,
especially in children. It's cute that these
are specifically cases that fell down and got hurt,
sometimes pretty badly, and the one saved for last died.
Sufficiently cute that my made-it-up sense is tingling
again, but I leave that to more experienced science
readers to decide. Indeed, legitimate, theoretically
unbiased science papers still follow Sturgeon's Law
of ninety percent being of poor quality.
It's wholly believable. People stuck with needles pass out sometimes.
I've done it from anaesthetic injections in my big toe as prep for
extremely minor surgery.

Note that just ten studies were identified over a ~30 year period, and
only two of those had any useful inferences to be drawn, and one of them
was suggestive but not evidential enough. You can read the link
yourself, that section isn't long.

This is very much the sort of thing that antivaxxers bring up as
evidence "people harmed by vaccinations!" without saying "Possibly four
people, compared to 160,000 who would have died of diphtheria!".

Cheers - Jaimie
--
Once I drove so fast that my friend, who was pregnant, started having
Lorentz contractions.

"Ahah," you might ask, "but how far apart were they?" - Adam Fineman, rgrn
J. Clarke
2019-05-23 23:11:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by D B Davis
Post by William Hyde
Post by Titus G
and because
there may be side effects, perhaps the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid
after all?
Far from all of them are stupid. But all of them are wrong.
There's no such thing as a cure-all.
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/80111/a-cure-for-all-diseases-by
-reginald-hill/9780307372413
Without looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor Quirrell implied
could stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...
Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song
What song?
There's no such thing as a cure-all. Loss of consciousness is one of
many vaccine product side effects. Here's some anecdotal stories about
bad outcomes. Most patients were lucky and suffered only a /near/ death
experience.
Anecdotal evidence.
Post by D B Davis
Case 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10
minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,
All you need to get syncope is dehydration and/or low BP. As all the subsequent
injuries were related to the syncope, and the only linkage to the vaccination
is time-based, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this anecdotal evidence;
particularly any conclusions with respect to viability of any particular
vaccine.
The causality conclusion appears near the bottom of the link that got
deleted. https://www.nap.edu/read/13164/chapter/14
The latency, of 15 minutes or less, between injection of a
vaccine and the development of syncope in many of the cases
described above suggests vasovagal syncope as the mechanism.
The committee assesses the mechanistic evidence
regarding an association between the injection
of a vaccine and syncope as strong based on 35
cases presenting definitive clinical evidence.
Causality Conclusion
Conclusion 12.3: The evidence convincingly supports a
causal relationship between the injection of a vaccine
and syncope.
?
Thank you,
That's only true if it is shown that the incidence of fainting
following an injection of a vaccine is statistically higher than that
of fainting following the injection of, say, sterile saline.
Jay E. Morris
2019-05-23 23:47:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
...
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by D B Davis
Case 1 describes a 17-year-old boy who developed syncope 10
minutes after receiving tetanus-diphtheria and measles, mumps,
All you need to get syncope is dehydration and/or low BP. As all the subsequent
injuries were related to the syncope, and the only linkage to the vaccination
is time-based, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this anecdotal evidence;
particularly any conclusions with respect to viability of any particular
vaccine.
Sounds like what happened to me. Reported into 24th Infantry Division at
Ft. Stewart GA. Since it was part of the rapid deployment force it could
go anywhere in the world so I needed about five vaccines. Medic poked
me, I passed out.

Probably had nothing to do that I'd just driven over 28 hours (with
help) to get there, hadn't eaten for about 10 hours and at least a few
hours since I'd had more than a sip of water.
David DeLaney
2019-05-25 14:24:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
Post by David DeLaney
Without looking, I suspect this is the same thing Professor Quirrell implied
could stop people from acting so annoyingly, in HP&tMoR...
Dave, also see that one Tom Lehrer song
What song?
_The Old Dope Peddler_.

Dave, will hum earwormingly for food
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
William Hyde
2019-05-18 02:57:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Kevrob
Post by a***@gmail.com
Forgive me, I don't know what anti-vaxers are.
You can work a search engine, can't you?
People who distrust vaccines, and avoid them for themselves or their
children.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_hesitancy
These louts are prmoting measles outbreaks here in the USA.
-- Kevin R a.a #2310
But, but, but. Only people who haven't been vaccinated for measles will
break out in measles, won't they?
Protection is not a hundred percent. Even after two doses efficacy is only 97%

And of course some people cannot be vaccinated.

William Hyde
David DeLaney
2019-05-23 15:25:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Kevrob
These louts are prmoting measles outbreaks here in the USA.
But, but, but. Only people who haven't been vaccinated for measles will
break out in measles, won't they?
Bzzzz X.

People who have been vaccinated but it didn't "take" completely can get it.

People who have been vaccinated a while ago and their particular immune
system is set up so it 'forgets' after a while can get it.

People who have been recently vaccinated and are in the process of acquiring
immunity because THEIR personal immune system has it take a little longer, you
guessed it, can get it.

(Also see this month's Scientific American for the unexpected health-promoting
possible side effect of certain live attenuated vaccines, still being
researched.)

And, most importantly, the majority of "people who haven't been vaccinated"
are going to be _children_ in the USA, because most schools won't let
unvaccinated kids in, because they KNOW what happens if they do. And having
the 3 per 1,000 or so rate of death, disfigurement, encephalitis, scarring,
and otherwise requiring actual hospital stays that comes up when a person,
kid or not, DOES get measles come up in your neighborhood invariably, these
days, gets you local news publicity on the same order as your kid being the
one in 1,000,000 or so who has an adverse reaction to the actual vaccine.

So get vaccinated ... for the CHILLLLDRUN!!1!. Please.

Dave, at least one other standard-vaccinated-for childhood disease changes the
cry to "for the local pregnant women", ALSO not something you want the local
news vultures to get ahold of

ps: tl;dr - vaccination, like most medicine, is NOT PERFECT, because it uses
biology, which is well-known to do whatever the hell it wants to under certain
conditions
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Peter Trei
2019-05-17 22:04:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Johnny1A
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by Johnny1A
Post by a***@gmail.com
I enjoy reading stories about interstellar empires. There are several problems an interstellar empire must solve. How to travel light years in short times. How to govern a vast empire.
In many SF empires, the government may be corrupt. This is realistic. All human institutions are tainted by our moral imperfections.
Idealism rarely survives the real world of politics. The key thing realists must achieve is protection of human rights of its public, with economic growth and trade.
Of course, there is wide disagreement on the what those rights are, and are not, between polities and within them.
Perhaps there will be universal laws and rights that apply to everyone, and local rules that do not contradict universal rules.
As the most basic universal rights, I propose sanctity of body and mind. That means your body and mind can never be violated.
Now define 'sanctity', 'body', 'mind', and 'violate'. This is not a joke.
So, alal is cool with anti-vaxers?
Forgive me, I don't know what anti-vaxers are.
Post by Peter Trei
I'm curious how he applies this claim to a woman seeking abortion. Does
she get it, or not? As it stands, its utterly ambiguous.
pt
I over simplified things. A person should have full control over his or her mind and body. That means no unwanted medical procedures or unwanted implants on the body. That also means no unwanted use of hypnotic techniques on the mind, including blocking of memories, creation of false memories, or programming of behaviour. No physical torture.
I am sure my preceding statement is imperfect, and we can discuss further if you want to, but I discuss as a retired IT consultant, and am not able to discuss as a legal professional.
My concern is protecting the rights of my friends and I.
You carefully avoided answering my question.

How does it apply to a pregnant woman seeking an abortion?

In this case, an argument is often presented that the fetus is a person, with
a person's rights (I don't agree this is true in all cases). If so, we have
two people with mutually irreconcilable goes: The woman wished to be free
of the fetus, and the fetus (presumably) wants continued life.

How do your principles resolve this conundrum?

pt
a***@gmail.com
2019-05-18 05:57:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Johnny1A
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by Johnny1A
Post by a***@gmail.com
I enjoy reading stories about interstellar empires. There are several problems an interstellar empire must solve. How to travel light years in short times. How to govern a vast empire.
In many SF empires, the government may be corrupt. This is realistic. All human institutions are tainted by our moral imperfections.
Idealism rarely survives the real world of politics. The key thing realists must achieve is protection of human rights of its public, with economic growth and trade.
Of course, there is wide disagreement on the what those rights are, and are not, between polities and within them.
Perhaps there will be universal laws and rights that apply to everyone, and local rules that do not contradict universal rules.
As the most basic universal rights, I propose sanctity of body and mind. That means your body and mind can never be violated.
Now define 'sanctity', 'body', 'mind', and 'violate'. This is not a joke.
So, alal is cool with anti-vaxers?
Forgive me, I don't know what anti-vaxers are.
Post by Peter Trei
I'm curious how he applies this claim to a woman seeking abortion. Does
she get it, or not? As it stands, its utterly ambiguous.
pt
I over simplified things. A person should have full control over his or her mind and body. That means no unwanted medical procedures or unwanted implants on the body. That also means no unwanted use of hypnotic techniques on the mind, including blocking of memories, creation of false memories, or programming of behaviour. No physical torture.
I am sure my preceding statement is imperfect, and we can discuss further if you want to, but I discuss as a retired IT consultant, and am not able to discuss as a legal professional.
My concern is protecting the rights of my friends and I.
You carefully avoided answering my question.
How does it apply to a pregnant woman seeking an abortion?
In this case, an argument is often presented that the fetus is a person, with
a person's rights (I don't agree this is true in all cases). If so, we have
two people with mutually irreconcilable goes: The woman wished to be free
of the fetus, and the fetus (presumably) wants continued life.
How do your principles resolve this conundrum?
pt
According to me, a woman's rights are greater than the rights of the foetus. So I fully support a woman's right to an abortion. It is the personal choice of the woman.

Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor

"Love is blindness"
Joy Beeson
2019-05-19 03:34:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
That means your body and mind can never be violated.
Unless, of course, you are pregnant or capable of becoming pregnant.
In that case, both sides of the "controversy" agree that the authority
of the state extends inside a woman's body.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
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