Discussion:
[Because My Tears Are Delicious To You] The Door into Summer by Robert A. Heinlein
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James Nicoll
2019-11-24 14:41:42 UTC
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The Door into Summer by Robert A. Heinlein

https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/thank-heaven-for-little-girls
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
D B Davis
2019-11-24 18:40:53 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
The Door into Summer by Robert A. Heinlein
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/thank-heaven-for-little-girls
Many readers fondly remember Pete (Petronius) the cat's character in
this story. It's unclear how many readers are troubled by Ricky's
predicament.
My wife likes this story. The only thing on the cover that troubles
my modest sister-in-law is the old school hairdo. 20,684 Goodreads
reviewers give this story an average rating of 4.01 out of 5.



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Carl Fink
2019-11-24 20:10:27 UTC
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Post by D B Davis
Post by James Nicoll
The Door into Summer by Robert A. Heinlein
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/thank-heaven-for-little-girls
Many readers fondly remember Pete (Petronius) the cat's character in
this story. It's unclear how many readers are troubled by Ricky's
predicament.
My wife likes this story. The only thing on the cover that troubles
my modest sister-in-law is the old school hairdo. 20,684 Goodreads
reviewers give this story an average rating of 4.01 out of 5.
For some reason, in the 2010s age differences between romantic partners has
become the new Absolute Evil.

Calling what Daniel did "grooming" is roughly the same as calling a speeding
ticket "smuggling".
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read John Grant's book, Corrupted Science: http://a.co/9UsUoGu
Dedicated to ... Carl Fink!
Chrysi Cat
2019-11-25 02:04:50 UTC
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Post by Carl Fink
Post by D B Davis
Post by James Nicoll
The Door into Summer by Robert A. Heinlein
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/thank-heaven-for-little-girls
Many readers fondly remember Pete (Petronius) the cat's character in
this story. It's unclear how many readers are troubled by Ricky's
predicament.
My wife likes this story. The only thing on the cover that troubles
my modest sister-in-law is the old school hairdo. 20,684 Goodreads
reviewers give this story an average rating of 4.01 out of 5.
For some reason, in the 2010s age differences between romantic partners has
become the new Absolute Evil.
Calling what Daniel did "grooming" is roughly the same as calling a speeding
ticket "smuggling".
She. Was. Born. In. Nineteen. Fifty. Eight.

He winds up in two separate cryochambers on the same day in 1970.

It be groomin' for him to deal with her at all from a position of
romantic entanglement.
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Johnny1A
2019-11-25 07:05:24 UTC
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Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Carl Fink
Post by D B Davis
Post by James Nicoll
The Door into Summer by Robert A. Heinlein
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/thank-heaven-for-little-girls
Many readers fondly remember Pete (Petronius) the cat's character in
this story. It's unclear how many readers are troubled by Ricky's
predicament.
My wife likes this story. The only thing on the cover that troubles
my modest sister-in-law is the old school hairdo. 20,684 Goodreads
reviewers give this story an average rating of 4.01 out of 5.
For some reason, in the 2010s age differences between romantic partners has
become the new Absolute Evil.
Calling what Daniel did "grooming" is roughly the same as calling a speeding
ticket "smuggling".
She. Was. Born. In. Nineteen. Fifty. Eight.
He winds up in two separate cryochambers on the same day in 1970.
It be groomin' for him to deal with her at all from a position of
romantic entanglement.
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Depends on the details.
-dsr-
2019-11-25 15:22:27 UTC
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Post by Carl Fink
Post by D B Davis
Post by James Nicoll
The Door into Summer by Robert A. Heinlein
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/thank-heaven-for-little-girls
Many readers fondly remember Pete (Petronius) the cat's character in
this story. It's unclear how many readers are troubled by Ricky's
predicament.
My wife likes this story. The only thing on the cover that troubles
my modest sister-in-law is the old school hairdo. 20,684 Goodreads
reviewers give this story an average rating of 4.01 out of 5.
For some reason, in the 2010s age differences between romantic partners has
become the new Absolute Evil.
Calling what Daniel did "grooming" is roughly the same as calling a speeding
ticket "smuggling".
Nobody much cares if the difference is 20 years and the younger person
is 30.

#In this case, she's 11 and he's 30. He never knows her as an adult until
#after he's already set things up to be with her -- tells her to wait 10
#years, then cold-sleep another 20.

At that point he's 31 or 32 and she's 21, by time experienced.

Nobody would think it completely awful if a 21 year old decides a 32
year old is an excellent romantic partner -- though most 21 year olds
are not, in my experience, ready to settle down.

See that paragraph marked by #? That's where the problem is.

-dsr-
Carl Fink
2019-11-26 01:20:55 UTC
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Post by -dsr-
#In this case, she's 11 and he's 30. He never knows her as an adult until
#after he's already set things up to be with her -- tells her to wait 10
#years, then cold-sleep another 20.
At that point he's 31 or 32 and she's 21, by time experienced.
Nobody would think it completely awful if a 21 year old decides a 32
year old is an excellent romantic partner -- though most 21 year olds
are not, in my experience, ready to settle down.
See that paragraph marked by #? That's where the problem is.
It isn't a correct description, though, or rather time travel makes English
verb tenses generally unhelpful when describing the order of events.
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read John Grant's book, Corrupted Science: http://a.co/9UsUoGu
Dedicated to ... Carl Fink!
-dsr-
2019-11-26 14:24:12 UTC
Reply
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Post by Carl Fink
Post by -dsr-
#In this case, she's 11 and he's 30. He never knows her as an adult until
#after he's already set things up to be with her -- tells her to wait 10
#years, then cold-sleep another 20.
At that point he's 31 or 32 and she's 21, by time experienced.
Nobody would think it completely awful if a 21 year old decides a 32
year old is an excellent romantic partner -- though most 21 year olds
are not, in my experience, ready to settle down.
See that paragraph marked by #? That's where the problem is.
It isn't a correct description, though, or rather time travel makes English
verb tenses generally unhelpful when describing the order of events.
It's entirely correct that she is experientially 11 and he's experientially
about 30 when he encourages her to wait ten years and then join him in the
future.

-dsr-
h***@gmail.com
2019-11-27 23:05:25 UTC
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Post by Carl Fink
Post by -dsr-
#In this case, she's 11 and he's 30. He never knows her as an adult until
#after he's already set things up to be with her -- tells her to wait 10
#years, then cold-sleep another 20.
At that point he's 31 or 32 and she's 21, by time experienced.
Nobody would think it completely awful if a 21 year old decides a 32
year old is an excellent romantic partner -- though most 21 year olds
are not, in my experience, ready to settle down.
See that paragraph marked by #? That's where the problem is.
It isn't a correct description, though, or rather time travel makes English
verb tenses generally unhelpful when describing the order of events.
It is a correct description.
The discussion happens when he's back in time and she's 11. They don't see her again until she's aged 10 years and gone into cold sleep.
They get married without having spent a day together when she's an adult.
D B Davis
2019-11-27 23:38:12 UTC
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Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Carl Fink
Post by -dsr-
#In this case, she's 11 and he's 30. He never knows her as an adult until
#after he's already set things up to be with her -- tells her to wait 10
#years, then cold-sleep another 20.
At that point he's 31 or 32 and she's 21, by time experienced.
Nobody would think it completely awful if a 21 year old decides a 32
year old is an excellent romantic partner -- though most 21 year olds
are not, in my experience, ready to settle down.
See that paragraph marked by #? That's where the problem is.
It isn't a correct description, though, or rather time travel makes English
verb tenses generally unhelpful when describing the order of events.
It is a correct description.
The discussion happens when he's back in time and she's 11. They don't
see her again until she's aged 10 years and gone into cold sleep.
They get married without having spent a day together when she's an adult.
Ricky's emotionally mature beyond her years, she gets what she wants,
and she's wanted D B since she first laid eyes on him. She's more
emotionally mature at eleven than some of my real life acquaintances who
act like they're seventy going on fifteen.



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
h***@gmail.com
2019-11-28 01:52:40 UTC
Reply
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Post by D B Davis
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Carl Fink
Post by -dsr-
#In this case, she's 11 and he's 30. He never knows her as an adult until
#after he's already set things up to be with her -- tells her to wait 10
#years, then cold-sleep another 20.
At that point he's 31 or 32 and she's 21, by time experienced.
Nobody would think it completely awful if a 21 year old decides a 32
year old is an excellent romantic partner -- though most 21 year olds
are not, in my experience, ready to settle down.
See that paragraph marked by #? That's where the problem is.
It isn't a correct description, though, or rather time travel makes English
verb tenses generally unhelpful when describing the order of events.
It is a correct description.
The discussion happens when he's back in time and she's 11. They don't
see her again until she's aged 10 years and gone into cold sleep.
They get married without having spent a day together when she's an adult.
Ricky's emotionally mature beyond her years, she gets what she wants,
and she's wanted D B since she first laid eyes on him. She's more
emotionally mature at eleven than some of my real life acquaintances who
act like they're seventy going on fifteen.
She's 11.
D B Davis
2019-11-28 02:09:43 UTC
Reply
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Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Carl Fink
Post by -dsr-
#In this case, she's 11 and he's 30. He never knows her as an adult until
#after he's already set things up to be with her -- tells her to wait 10
#years, then cold-sleep another 20.
At that point he's 31 or 32 and she's 21, by time experienced.
Nobody would think it completely awful if a 21 year old decides a 32
year old is an excellent romantic partner -- though most 21 year olds
are not, in my experience, ready to settle down.
See that paragraph marked by #? That's where the problem is.
It isn't a correct description, though, or rather time travel makes English
verb tenses generally unhelpful when describing the order of events.
It is a correct description.
The discussion happens when he's back in time and she's 11. They don't
see her again until she's aged 10 years and gone into cold sleep.
They get married without having spent a day together when she's an adult.
Ricky's emotionally mature beyond her years, she gets what she wants,
and she's wanted D B since she first laid eyes on him. She's more
emotionally mature at eleven than some of my real life acquaintances who
act like they're seventy going on fifteen.
She's 11.
Careful there, you're in a loop.



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Lynn McGuire
2019-11-28 02:41:39 UTC
Reply
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Post by D B Davis
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Carl Fink
Post by -dsr-
#In this case, she's 11 and he's 30. He never knows her as an adult until
#after he's already set things up to be with her -- tells her to wait 10
#years, then cold-sleep another 20.
At that point he's 31 or 32 and she's 21, by time experienced.
Nobody would think it completely awful if a 21 year old decides a 32
year old is an excellent romantic partner -- though most 21 year olds
are not, in my experience, ready to settle down.
See that paragraph marked by #? That's where the problem is.
It isn't a correct description, though, or rather time travel makes English
verb tenses generally unhelpful when describing the order of events.
It is a correct description.
The discussion happens when he's back in time and she's 11. They don't
see her again until she's aged 10 years and gone into cold sleep.
They get married without having spent a day together when she's an adult.
Ricky's emotionally mature beyond her years, she gets what she wants,
and she's wanted D B since she first laid eyes on him. She's more
emotionally mature at eleven than some of my real life acquaintances who
act like they're seventy going on fifteen.
She's 11.
Careful there, you're in a loop.

Thank you,
Yup, that is Hamish. He is stuck in a permanent loop. That is why I
have him blocked.

Lynn
Titus G
2019-11-29 02:19:45 UTC
Reply
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Post by D B Davis
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Carl Fink
Post by -dsr-
#In this case, she's 11 and he's 30. He never knows her as an adult until
#after he's already set things up to be with her -- tells her to wait 10
#years, then cold-sleep another 20.
At that point he's 31 or 32 and she's 21, by time experienced.
Nobody would think it completely awful if a 21 year old decides a 32
year old is an excellent romantic partner -- though most 21 year olds
are not, in my experience, ready to settle down.
See that paragraph marked by #? That's where the problem is.
It isn't a correct description, though, or rather time travel makes English
verb tenses generally unhelpful when describing the order of events.
It is a correct description.
The discussion happens when he's back in time and she's 11. They don't
see her again until she's aged 10 years and gone into cold sleep.
They get married without having spent a day together when she's an adult.
Ricky's emotionally mature beyond her years, she gets what she wants,
and she's wanted D B since she first laid eyes on him. She's more
emotionally mature at eleven than some of my real life acquaintances who
act like they're seventy going on fifteen.
She's 11.
Careful there, you're in a loop.

A loop of Epstein's video tape?
D B Davis
2019-11-29 03:01:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by D B Davis
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Carl Fink
Post by -dsr-
#In this case, she's 11 and he's 30. He never knows her as an adult until
#after he's already set things up to be with her -- tells her to wait 10
#years, then cold-sleep another 20.
At that point he's 31 or 32 and she's 21, by time experienced.
Nobody would think it completely awful if a 21 year old decides a 32
year old is an excellent romantic partner -- though most 21 year olds
are not, in my experience, ready to settle down.
See that paragraph marked by #? That's where the problem is.
It isn't a correct description, though, or rather time travel makes English
verb tenses generally unhelpful when describing the order of events.
It is a correct description.
The discussion happens when he's back in time and she's 11. They don't
see her again until she's aged 10 years and gone into cold sleep.
They get married without having spent a day together when she's an adult.
Ricky's emotionally mature beyond her years, she gets what she wants,
and she's wanted D B since she first laid eyes on him. She's more
emotionally mature at eleven than some of my real life acquaintances who
act like they're seventy going on fifteen.
She's 11.
Careful there, you're in a loop.
A loop of Epstein's video tape?
A loop that's more cause célèbre than causal.



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
David DeLaney
2019-12-05 02:39:32 UTC
Reply
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Post by D B Davis
Post by Titus G
Post by D B Davis
Post by h***@gmail.com
She's 11.
Careful there, you're in a loop.
A loop of Epstein's video tape?
A loop that's more cause célèbre than causal.
???
I remember that I was eleven once.

Dave, I've met people who apparently have blocked that, and similar portions of
their life, from memory
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
D B Davis
2019-12-06 12:04:04 UTC
Reply
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Post by David DeLaney
Post by D B Davis
Post by Titus G
Post by D B Davis
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Carl Fink
Post by -dsr-
#In this case, she's 11 and he's 30. He never knows her as an adult until
#after he's already set things up to be with her -- tells her to wait 10
#years, then cold-sleep another 20.
At that point he's 31 or 32 and she's 21, by time experienced.
Nobody would think it completely awful if a 21 year old decides a 32
year old is an excellent romantic partner -- though most 21 year olds
are not, in my experience, ready to settle down.
See that paragraph marked by #? That's where the problem is.
It isn't a correct description, though, or rather time travel makes English
verb tenses generally unhelpful when describing the order of events.
It is a correct description.
The discussion happens when he's back in time and she's 11. They don't
see her again until she's aged 10 years and gone into cold sleep.
They get married without having spent a day together when she's an adult.
Ricky's emotionally mature beyond her years, she gets what she wants,
and she's wanted D B since she first laid eyes on him. She's more
emotionally mature at eleven than some of my real life acquaintances who
act like they're seventy going on fifteen.
She's 11.
Careful there, you're in a loop.
A loop of Epstein's video tape?
A loop that's more cause célèbre than causal.
I remember that I was eleven once.
Dave, I've met people who apparently have blocked that, and similar portions of
their life, from memory
Careful there, your deft delete didn't take. You're still in a loop
that's more cause célèbre than causal.



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
David Johnston
2019-11-28 02:22:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Carl Fink
Post by -dsr-
#In this case, she's 11 and he's 30. He never knows her as an adult until
#after he's already set things up to be with her -- tells her to wait 10
#years, then cold-sleep another 20.
At that point he's 31 or 32 and she's 21, by time experienced.
Nobody would think it completely awful if a 21 year old decides a 32
year old is an excellent romantic partner -- though most 21 year olds
are not, in my experience, ready to settle down.
See that paragraph marked by #? That's where the problem is.
It isn't a correct description, though, or rather time travel makes English
verb tenses generally unhelpful when describing the order of events.
It is a correct description.
The discussion happens when he's back in time and she's 11. They don't
see her again until she's aged 10 years and gone into cold sleep.
They get married without having spent a day together when she's an adult.
Ricky's emotionally mature beyond her years, she gets what she wants,
and she's wanted D B since she first laid eyes on him. She's more
emotionally mature at eleven than some of my real life acquaintances who
act like they're seventy going on fifteen.

Thank you,
<cough> Well of course she would be. If the author didn't write her
that way it might seem odd to be making serious wedding plans with an 11
year old. On the whole this strikes me as Heinlein ticking off another
box on his list of sexual taboos to violate in stories.
D B Davis
2019-11-28 04:11:55 UTC
Reply
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Post by David Johnston
Post by D B Davis
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Carl Fink
Post by -dsr-
#In this case, she's 11 and he's 30. He never knows her as an adult until
#after he's already set things up to be with her -- tells her to wait 10
#years, then cold-sleep another 20.
At that point he's 31 or 32 and she's 21, by time experienced.
Nobody would think it completely awful if a 21 year old decides a 32
year old is an excellent romantic partner -- though most 21 year olds
are not, in my experience, ready to settle down.
See that paragraph marked by #? That's where the problem is.
It isn't a correct description, though, or rather time travel makes English
verb tenses generally unhelpful when describing the order of events.
It is a correct description.
The discussion happens when he's back in time and she's 11. They don't
see her again until she's aged 10 years and gone into cold sleep.
They get married without having spent a day together when she's an adult.
Ricky's emotionally mature beyond her years, she gets what she wants,
and she's wanted D B since she first laid eyes on him. She's more
emotionally mature at eleven than some of my real life acquaintances who
act like they're seventy going on fifteen.
<cough> Well of course she would be. If the author didn't write her
that way it might seem odd to be making serious wedding plans with an 11
year old. On the whole this strikes me as Heinlein ticking off another
box on his list of sexual taboos to violate in stories.
It seems to me that Heinlein uses the taboo to create narrative tension.



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
a425couple
2019-11-26 16:10:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by -dsr-
Post by Carl Fink
Post by D B Davis
Post by James Nicoll
The Door into Summer by Robert A. Heinlein
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/thank-heaven-for-little-girls
Many readers fondly remember Pete (Petronius) the cat's character in
this story. It's unclear how many readers are troubled by Ricky's
predicament.
My wife likes this story. The only thing on the cover that troubles
my modest sister-in-law is the old school hairdo. 20,684 Goodreads
reviewers give this story an average rating of 4.01 out of 5.
For some reason, in the 2010s age differences between romantic partners has
become the new Absolute Evil.
Calling what Daniel did "grooming" is roughly the same as calling a speeding
ticket "smuggling".
Nobody much cares if the difference is 20 years and the younger person
is 30.
#In this case, she's 11 and he's 30. He never knows her as an adult until
#after he's already set things up to be with her -- tells her to wait 10
#years, then cold-sleep another 20.
At that point he's 31 or 32 and she's 21, by time experienced.
Nobody would think it completely awful if a 21 year old decides a 32
year old is an excellent romantic partner -- though most 21 year olds
are not, in my experience, ready to settle down.
See that paragraph marked by #? That's where the problem is.
-dsr-
In a long ago discussion on this,
I quite agreed with the poster who commented,

"It is not that unusual for a 11 year old girl to
become romantically fixated on a 30 year old trusted male.
What is very unusual is the 30 year old encouraging this,
and then figuring out a way to make it happen."
Peter Trei
2019-11-26 17:31:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by a425couple
Post by -dsr-
Post by Carl Fink
Post by D B Davis
Post by James Nicoll
The Door into Summer by Robert A. Heinlein
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/thank-heaven-for-little-girls
Many readers fondly remember Pete (Petronius) the cat's character in
this story. It's unclear how many readers are troubled by Ricky's
predicament.
My wife likes this story. The only thing on the cover that troubles
my modest sister-in-law is the old school hairdo. 20,684 Goodreads
reviewers give this story an average rating of 4.01 out of 5.
For some reason, in the 2010s age differences between romantic partners has
become the new Absolute Evil.
Calling what Daniel did "grooming" is roughly the same as calling a speeding
ticket "smuggling".
Nobody much cares if the difference is 20 years and the younger person
is 30.
#In this case, she's 11 and he's 30. He never knows her as an adult until
#after he's already set things up to be with her -- tells her to wait 10
#years, then cold-sleep another 20.
At that point he's 31 or 32 and she's 21, by time experienced.
Nobody would think it completely awful if a 21 year old decides a 32
year old is an excellent romantic partner -- though most 21 year olds
are not, in my experience, ready to settle down.
See that paragraph marked by #? That's where the problem is.
-dsr-
In a long ago discussion on this,
I quite agreed with the poster who commented,
"It is not that unusual for a 11 year old girl to
become romantically fixated on a 30 year old trusted male.
What is very unusual is the 30 year old encouraging this,
and then figuring out a way to make it happen."
Its been about 45 years since I read the book, so I don't recall the
details of what is being called 'grooming'.

Nonetheless, it bears pointing out that she had 10 years, with zero
interference, to decide to abandon the plan, and she was a full adult
at the time she committed to cryosleep.

She had tons of time to think it over, decide it was a childish crush,
and do something else.

Far from wanting to get involved with a child, Dan wanted to get involved
with the adult he felt she would grow into, and that is what he worked to
make possible.

James' title on his review is very misleading.

[BTW, if you want to see something that's disturbing, try reading
Collette's novella 'Gigi', of which the movie is the cleaned-up version.
Doubly disturbing when you know she is based on a real girl.

pt
Scott Lurndal
2019-11-26 18:11:10 UTC
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Post by Peter Trei
Post by a425couple
Post by -dsr-
Post by Carl Fink
Post by D B Davis
Post by James Nicoll
The Door into Summer by Robert A. Heinlein
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/thank-heaven-for-little-girls
Many readers fondly remember Pete (Petronius) the cat's character in
this story. It's unclear how many readers are troubled by Ricky's
predicament.
My wife likes this story. The only thing on the cover that troubles
my modest sister-in-law is the old school hairdo. 20,684 Goodreads
reviewers give this story an average rating of 4.01 out of 5.
For some reason, in the 2010s age differences between romantic partners has
become the new Absolute Evil.
Calling what Daniel did "grooming" is roughly the same as calling a speeding
ticket "smuggling".
Nobody much cares if the difference is 20 years and the younger person
is 30.
#In this case, she's 11 and he's 30. He never knows her as an adult until
#after he's already set things up to be with her -- tells her to wait 10
#years, then cold-sleep another 20.
At that point he's 31 or 32 and she's 21, by time experienced.
Nobody would think it completely awful if a 21 year old decides a 32
year old is an excellent romantic partner -- though most 21 year olds
are not, in my experience, ready to settle down.
See that paragraph marked by #? That's where the problem is.
-dsr-
In a long ago discussion on this,
I quite agreed with the poster who commented,
"It is not that unusual for a 11 year old girl to
become romantically fixated on a 30 year old trusted male.
What is very unusual is the 30 year old encouraging this,
and then figuring out a way to make it happen."
Its been about 45 years since I read the book, so I don't recall the
details of what is being called 'grooming'.
Indeed - someone posted the relevent section of the novel which made
it clear that Dan was not taking Ricky seriously about marriage at
the time, but rather was humoring her; like any favored uncle.
Richard Hershberger
2019-11-27 17:01:36 UTC
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Post by Peter Trei
Post by a425couple
Post by -dsr-
Post by Carl Fink
Post by D B Davis
Post by James Nicoll
The Door into Summer by Robert A. Heinlein
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/thank-heaven-for-little-girls
Many readers fondly remember Pete (Petronius) the cat's character in
this story. It's unclear how many readers are troubled by Ricky's
predicament.
My wife likes this story. The only thing on the cover that troubles
my modest sister-in-law is the old school hairdo. 20,684 Goodreads
reviewers give this story an average rating of 4.01 out of 5.
For some reason, in the 2010s age differences between romantic partners has
become the new Absolute Evil.
Calling what Daniel did "grooming" is roughly the same as calling a speeding
ticket "smuggling".
Nobody much cares if the difference is 20 years and the younger person
is 30.
#In this case, she's 11 and he's 30. He never knows her as an adult until
#after he's already set things up to be with her -- tells her to wait 10
#years, then cold-sleep another 20.
At that point he's 31 or 32 and she's 21, by time experienced.
Nobody would think it completely awful if a 21 year old decides a 32
year old is an excellent romantic partner -- though most 21 year olds
are not, in my experience, ready to settle down.
See that paragraph marked by #? That's where the problem is.
-dsr-
In a long ago discussion on this,
I quite agreed with the poster who commented,
"It is not that unusual for a 11 year old girl to
become romantically fixated on a 30 year old trusted male.
What is very unusual is the 30 year old encouraging this,
and then figuring out a way to make it happen."
Its been about 45 years since I read the book, so I don't recall the
details of what is being called 'grooming'.
Nonetheless, it bears pointing out that she had 10 years, with zero
interference, to decide to abandon the plan, and she was a full adult
at the time she committed to cryosleep.
She had tons of time to think it over, decide it was a childish crush,
and do something else.
Yabbut... There is another feature of the novel, that women are divided into "good" and "bad." The consistent correlated feature between the two is that the "good" women are absolutely and enthusiastically subservient to their men, while the "bad" women have agency. Ricky is the best woman of them all. Saying she could have chosen otherwise is to assume that she had free will.

Richard R. Hershberger
Post by Peter Trei
Far from wanting to get involved with a child, Dan wanted to get involved
with the adult he felt she would grow into, and that is what he worked to
make possible.
James' title on his review is very misleading.
[BTW, if you want to see something that's disturbing, try reading
Collette's novella 'Gigi', of which the movie is the cleaned-up version.
Doubly disturbing when you know she is based on a real girl.
pt
D B Davis
2019-11-27 21:27:10 UTC
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Post by Richard Hershberger
Yabbut... There is another feature of the novel, that women are divided
into "good" and "bad." The consistent correlated feature between the two
is that the "good" women are absolutely and enthusiastically subservient
to their men, while the "bad" women have agency. Ricky is the best woman
of them all. Saying she could have chosen otherwise is to assume that she
had free will.
Why do you feel that Ricky doesn't have free will?

Belle's a pathological liar. Isn't "agency" a euphemism for lying in
her case?



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
a***@msn.com
2019-11-27 21:45:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
Post by Richard Hershberger
Yabbut... There is another feature of the novel, that women are divided
into "good" and "bad." The consistent correlated feature between the two
is that the "good" women are absolutely and enthusiastically subservient
to their men, while the "bad" women have agency. Ricky is the best woman
of them all. Saying she could have chosen otherwise is to assume that she
had free will.
Why do you feel that Ricky doesn't have free will?
Belle's a pathological liar. Isn't "agency" a euphemism for lying in
her case?
Interestingly, you could argue that the male characters in the novel don't have agency - Miles is controlled by Belle (perhaps literally - she implies that she used the mind-control drug on him) and once Dan learns of his future, he will inevitably fulfill it, regardless of his desires. Agency is tricky in time-travel stories...
D B Davis
2019-11-27 22:57:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by Richard Hershberger
Yabbut... There is another feature of the novel, that women are divided
into "good" and "bad." The consistent correlated feature between the two
is that the "good" women are absolutely and enthusiastically subservient
to their men, while the "bad" women have agency. Ricky is the best woman
of them all. Saying she could have chosen otherwise is to assume that she
had free will.
Why do you feel that Ricky doesn't have free will?
Belle's a pathological liar. Isn't "agency" a euphemism for lying in
her case?
Interestingly, you could argue that the male characters in the novel don't
have agency - Miles is controlled by Belle (perhaps literally - she implies
that she used the mind-control drug on him) and once Dan learns of his future,
he will inevitably fulfill it, regardless of his desires. Agency is tricky in
time-travel stories...
RAH style time travel typically involves invariable inevitable time
loops that can cause chicken-or-egg causality dilemmas in the minds of
readers who are obsessed with causality. Time travel tales tend to be
paradoxical by nature. The genre may best fit readers able to accept the
inexplicable at face value.



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
D B Davis
2019-11-26 15:36:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by D B Davis
Post by James Nicoll
The Door into Summer by Robert A. Heinlein
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/thank-heaven-for-little-girls
Many readers fondly remember Pete (Petronius) the cat's character in
this story. It's unclear how many readers are troubled by Ricky's
predicament.
My wife likes this story. The only thing on the cover that troubles
my modest sister-in-law is the old school hairdo. 20,684 Goodreads
reviewers give this story an average rating of 4.01 out of 5.
For some reason, in the 2010s age differences between romantic partners has
become the new Absolute Evil.
Calling what Daniel did "grooming" is roughly the same as calling a speeding
ticket "smuggling".
In 2010 Jo Walton shared her epiphany about the story's creepiness, as
she saw it, in retrospect. [1] Walton at least had the grace to admit
that, on whole, _Door_ is a good story. She resisted the temptation to
hastily cast it down into the ninth circle of Heinleinian Hell, next to
_Farnum's Freehold_ and _I Will Fear No Evil_ (which anecdotal evidence
suggests remains popular, particularly with females).
Anyhow, the airing of Walton's grievance may have been a seminal
event that set into motion the mad mod mob of morose marching moralists,
who got into line to chastise RAH fen once again.
The myriad marching moralists are now woke and see grooming behind
every tree. Although written by a woman, _The Time Traveler's Wife_
(Niffenegger), is not exempt and is also held up to receive its very own
Two Minutes Hate.

Note.

[1] https://www.tor.com/2010/02/10/incredibly-readable-robert-heinleins-lemgthe-door-into-summerlemg/



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
J. Clarke
2019-11-26 15:54:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
Post by Carl Fink
Post by D B Davis
Post by James Nicoll
The Door into Summer by Robert A. Heinlein
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/thank-heaven-for-little-girls
Many readers fondly remember Pete (Petronius) the cat's character in
this story. It's unclear how many readers are troubled by Ricky's
predicament.
My wife likes this story. The only thing on the cover that troubles
my modest sister-in-law is the old school hairdo. 20,684 Goodreads
reviewers give this story an average rating of 4.01 out of 5.
For some reason, in the 2010s age differences between romantic partners has
become the new Absolute Evil.
Calling what Daniel did "grooming" is roughly the same as calling a speeding
ticket "smuggling".
In 2010 Jo Walton shared her epiphany about the story's creepiness, as
she saw it, in retrospect. [1] Walton at least had the grace to admit
that, on whole, _Door_ is a good story. She resisted the temptation to
hastily cast it down into the ninth circle of Heinleinian Hell, next to
_Farnum's Freehold_ and _I Will Fear No Evil_ (which anecdotal evidence
suggests remains popular, particularly with females).
Anyhow, the airing of Walton's grievance may have been a seminal
event that set into motion the mad mod mob of morose marching moralists,
who got into line to chastise RAH fen once again.
The myriad marching moralists are now woke and see grooming behind
every tree. Although written by a woman, _The Time Traveler's Wife_
(Niffenegger), is not exempt and is also held up to receive its very own
Two Minutes Hate.
Note.
[1] https://www.tor.com/2010/02/10/incredibly-readable-robert-heinleins-lemgthe-door-into-summerlemg/
?
In both "The Door Into Summer" and "The Time Traveler's Wife" the
relationship led to marriage, not to an unlawful sexual act, and in
both cases the older person subsequently did his best to make the
younger happy (in the case of "The Time Traveler's Wife" his ability
in that regard was admittedly rather limited by circumstance). So
calling it "grooming" is rather overstating the case and further it is
diluting the meaning of the word.
Carl Fink
2019-11-27 14:30:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
In 2010 Jo Walton shared her epiphany about the story's creepiness, as
she saw it, in retrospect. [1] Walton at least had the grace to admit
that, on whole, _Door_ is a good story. She resisted the temptation to
hastily cast it down into the ninth circle of Heinleinian Hell, next to
_Farnum's Freehold_ and _I Will Fear No Evil_ (which anecdotal evidence
suggests remains popular, particularly with females).
Anyhow, the airing of Walton's grievance may have been a seminal
event that set into motion the mad mod mob of morose marching moralists,
who got into line to chastise RAH fen once again.
As a member of the "support your non-local writer" movement, I bought Jo's
book. I've read that essay, although I didn't make the connection that it
was seminal in this manner.
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read John Grant's book, Corrupted Science: http://a.co/9UsUoGu
Dedicated to ... Carl Fink!
David DeLaney
2019-12-05 02:37:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by D B Davis
Post by James Nicoll
The Door into Summer by Robert A. Heinlein
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/thank-heaven-for-little-girls
Many readers fondly remember Pete (Petronius) the cat's character in
this story. It's unclear how many readers are troubled by Ricky's
predicament.
My wife likes this story. The only thing on the cover that troubles
my modest sister-in-law is the old school hairdo. 20,684 Goodreads
reviewers give this story an average rating of 4.01 out of 5.
For some reason, in the 2010s age differences between romantic partners has
become the new Absolute Evil.
The first guy I dated was 12 years older than me.

Dave, information about others is unavailable at your security clearance
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Lynn McGuire
2019-11-24 20:24:16 UTC
Reply
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Post by James Nicoll
The Door into Summer by Robert A. Heinlein
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/thank-heaven-for-little-girls
I liked this book a lot. About my 10th favorite Heinlein. Of course,
my cofavorites are The Star Beast, Citizen of the Galaxy, and The Moon
is a Harsh Mistress.

Lynn
Richard Hershberger
2019-11-27 17:03:25 UTC
Reply
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Post by James Nicoll
The Door into Summer by Robert A. Heinlein
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/thank-heaven-for-little-girls
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
My comment on the blog:

This was one of Young Me's favorites, back in the day. About ten years ago I began my Great Reread of Young Me's favorites, and this came up early on in the project. Old Me is absolutely appalled by Young Me's taste in literature. Old Me was totally squicked out by the grooming of the tween, which Young Me had never registered. Then once we get past that, Old Me noted that there is a one-to-one correlation on a woman being depicted approvingly and her being enthusiastically subservient to a man.

On a different note, and far down the list of problems with the novel, Old Me was struck by why the inventor thought the time machine was a failure. You put two equal masses in it. One would go forward in time, the other backward, but there was no way to know which mass would go which direction. The inventor couldn't think of any practical application given this limitation, and therefore put it on a shelf and moved on. Really? He should have asked Old Me for ideas. I have lots of them. In the meantime, the rest of the world seemed to regard the invention as a very minor bit of trivia. Uh huh.

Richard R. Hershberger
a***@msn.com
2019-11-27 18:43:45 UTC
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Post by Richard Hershberger
On a different note, and far down the list of problems with the novel, Old Me was struck by why the inventor thought the time machine was a failure. You put two equal masses in it. One would go forward in time, the other backward, but there was no way to know which mass would go which direction. The inventor couldn't think of any practical application given this limitation, and therefore put it on a shelf and moved on. Really? He should have asked Old Me for ideas. I have lots of them. In the meantime, the rest of the world seemed to regard the invention as a very minor bit of trivia. Uh huh.
It was a secret military project, as I recall, so the inventor's ability to imagine practical applications wasn't entirely relevant. The _general-in-charge_ couldn't think of any relevant _military_ applications, so the invention was shelved.
Peter Trei
2019-11-27 19:09:58 UTC
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Post by a***@msn.com
Post by Richard Hershberger
On a different note, and far down the list of problems with the novel, Old Me was struck by why the inventor thought the time machine was a failure. You put two equal masses in it. One would go forward in time, the other backward, but there was no way to know which mass would go which direction. The inventor couldn't think of any practical application given this limitation, and therefore put it on a shelf and moved on. Really? He should have asked Old Me for ideas. I have lots of them. In the meantime, the rest of the world seemed to regard the invention as a very minor bit of trivia. Uh huh.
It was a secret military project, as I recall, so the inventor's ability to imagine practical applications wasn't entirely relevant. The _general-in-charge_ couldn't think of any relevant _military_ applications, so the invention was shelved.
It's utility depends on the extent you can change the past. Move two copies of yesterday's Powerball results? Two copies of where the enemy executes a surprise attack?

I don't know how much RAH goes into time travel theory in this story.

Pt
a***@msn.com
2019-11-27 19:16:19 UTC
Reply
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Post by Peter Trei
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by Richard Hershberger
On a different note, and far down the list of problems with the novel, Old Me was struck by why the inventor thought the time machine was a failure. You put two equal masses in it. One would go forward in time, the other backward, but there was no way to know which mass would go which direction. The inventor couldn't think of any practical application given this limitation, and therefore put it on a shelf and moved on. Really? He should have asked Old Me for ideas. I have lots of them. In the meantime, the rest of the world seemed to regard the invention as a very minor bit of trivia. Uh huh.
It was a secret military project, as I recall, so the inventor's ability to imagine practical applications wasn't entirely relevant. The _general-in-charge_ couldn't think of any relevant _military_ applications, so the invention was shelved.
It's utility depends on the extent you can change the past. Move two copies of yesterday's Powerball results? Two copies of where the enemy executes a surprise attack?
I don't know how much RAH goes into time travel theory in this story.
Pt
The book takes a fixed-timeline POV - if you go back in time to do something, you've always gone back in time to do it. So you can send back the Powerball results to explain why you found accurate Powerball predictions in your mailbox yesterday, but it's not going to allow you to win if you remember not winning.
Peter Trei
2019-11-27 21:37:05 UTC
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Post by a***@msn.com
Post by Peter Trei
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by Richard Hershberger
On a different note, and far down the list of problems with the novel, Old Me was struck by why the inventor thought the time machine was a failure. You put two equal masses in it. One would go forward in time, the other backward, but there was no way to know which mass would go which direction. The inventor couldn't think of any practical application given this limitation, and therefore put it on a shelf and moved on. Really? He should have asked Old Me for ideas. I have lots of them. In the meantime, the rest of the world seemed to regard the invention as a very minor bit of trivia. Uh huh.
It was a secret military project, as I recall, so the inventor's ability to imagine practical applications wasn't entirely relevant. The _general-in-charge_ couldn't think of any relevant _military_ applications, so the invention was shelved.
It's utility depends on the extent you can change the past. Move two copies of yesterday's Powerball results? Two copies of where the enemy executes a surprise attack?
I don't know how much RAH goes into time travel theory in this story.
Pt
The book takes a fixed-timeline POV - if you go back in time to do something, you've always gone back in time to do it. So you can send back the Powerball results to explain why you found accurate Powerball predictions in your mailbox yesterday, but it's not going to allow you to win if you remember not winning.
In such a world, people would be making Solemn commitments to start providing info to the past, going forwards from that point. Causality would get complicated.
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