Discussion:
English Pronunciation Question: Ngaio Marsh
(too old to reply)
p***@hotmail.com
2020-01-11 06:18:04 UTC
Permalink
What is the correct pronunciation for the first name of the New Zealand
mystery writer Ngaio Marsh? I have heard Nie-oh, with a long I in the first
syllable, a long O in the second, and the G silent. However, we typically
get silent letters as in "tough" when the pronunciation of a word changes over
time but the spelling doesn't follow suite. Tough, cough, and plough were all
phonetic spellings at one time, but only plough has changed spelling with the
accepted variant plow. Since Ngaio is a Maori word transliterated into English
it would seem strange that it would be assigned a silent letter. Does the G
possibly represent a non-English sound such as a glottal stop?

My thanks in advance for any information about this.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-01-11 07:05:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
What is the correct pronunciation for the first name of the New Zealand
mystery writer Ngaio Marsh? I have heard Nie-oh, with a long I in the first
syllable, a long O in the second, and the G silent.
From what I've read, that's how she pronounced it.


However, we typically
Post by p***@hotmail.com
get silent letters as in "tough" when the pronunciation of a word changes over
time but the spelling doesn't follow suite. Tough, cough, and plough were all
phonetic spellings at one time, but only plough has changed spelling with the
accepted variant plow. Since Ngaio is a Maori word transliterated into English
it would seem strange that it would be assigned a silent letter. Does the G
possibly represent a non-English sound such as a glottal stop?
AFAIK it represents the 'ng' sound as in "sing," a sound which
does not occur at the beginning of a word in English, so it was
simplified to an initial 'n'.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2020-01-11 18:23:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
What is the correct pronunciation for the first name of the New Zealand
mystery writer Ngaio Marsh? I have heard Nie-oh, with a long I in the first
syllable, a long O in the second, and the G silent. However, we typically
get silent letters as in "tough" when the pronunciation of a word changes over
time but the spelling doesn't follow suite. Tough, cough, and plough were all
phonetic spellings at one time, but only plough has changed spelling with the
accepted variant plow. Since Ngaio is a Maori word transliterated into English
it would seem strange that it would be assigned a silent letter. Does the G
possibly represent a non-English sound such as a glottal stop?
You pronounce "tough" ("hard to tear") as "tow" ("pull with a rope")?
or "cough" ("expectorate") as "cow" ("domesticated bovine")?

"plough"/"plow", OTOH, is a good example.

My understanding is that the "gh" was originally something like the
German "ch". Of course, that is voiceless; I do not recall if the "gh"
here is voiced or not. Since it follows a back-vowel, it is presumably
something like the German "ch" in "Ach" rather than that in "Ich".

Arabic has both voiced and unvoiced versions -- as separate phonemes.
Post by p***@hotmail.com
My thanks in advance for any information about this.
I always think of it as pronounced as spelled -- but then, I never
investigated the topic so would not know. And I really like
pronouncing "gnashing of teeth" with a nice audible "g" at the start.
For emphasis, of course.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
p***@hotmail.com
2020-01-11 22:10:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by p***@hotmail.com
What is the correct pronunciation for the first name of the New Zealand
mystery writer Ngaio Marsh? I have heard Nie-oh, with a long I in the first
syllable, a long O in the second, and the G silent. However, we typically
get silent letters as in "tough" when the pronunciation of a word changes over
time but the spelling doesn't follow suite. Tough, cough, and plough were all
phonetic spellings at one time, but only plough has changed spelling with the
accepted variant plow. Since Ngaio is a Maori word transliterated into English
it would seem strange that it would be assigned a silent letter. Does the G
possibly represent a non-English sound such as a glottal stop?
You pronounce "tough" ("hard to tear") as "tow" ("pull with a rope")?
or "cough" ("expectorate") as "cow" ("domesticated bovine")?
Of course not; the three words have gone their separate ways. A phonetic
spelling of "tough" here in the midwest is tuff. A phonetic spelling
of "cough" is kawf.
Post by Paul S Person
"plough"/"plow", OTOH, is a good example.
My understanding is that the "gh" was originally something like the
German "ch". Of course, that is voiceless; I do not recall if the "gh"
here is voiced or not. Since it follows a back-vowel, it is presumably
something like the German "ch" in "Ach" rather than that in "Ich".
I have seen and heard a demonstration of the original pronunciation,
possibly in _The Story of English_ on public television. My memory
is that the "gh" was indeed similar to the German "ch" as in Bach but
you could hear a "g" sound as distinct from "c". Rather Klingon like.
Post by Paul S Person
Arabic has both voiced and unvoiced versions -- as separate phonemes.
Post by p***@hotmail.com
My thanks in advance for any information about this.
I always think of it as pronounced as spelled -- but then, I never
investigated the topic so would not know. And I really like
pronouncing "gnashing of teeth" with a nice audible "g" at the start.
For emphasis, of course.
Thank you for your reply,

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Kevrob
2020-01-11 22:42:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I have seen and heard a demonstration of the original pronunciation,
possibly in _The Story of English_ on public television. My memory
is that the "gh" was indeed similar to the German "ch" as in Bach but
you could hear a "g" sound as distinct from "c". Rather Klingon like.
"Gagh is best served live".....?

https://www.startrek.com/database_article/gagh

Kevin R
Paul S Person
2020-01-12 18:11:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by p***@hotmail.com
What is the correct pronunciation for the first name of the New Zealand
mystery writer Ngaio Marsh? I have heard Nie-oh, with a long I in the first
syllable, a long O in the second, and the G silent. However, we typically
get silent letters as in "tough" when the pronunciation of a word changes over
time but the spelling doesn't follow suite. Tough, cough, and plough were all
phonetic spellings at one time, but only plough has changed spelling with the
accepted variant plow. Since Ngaio is a Maori word transliterated into English
it would seem strange that it would be assigned a silent letter. Does the G
possibly represent a non-English sound such as a glottal stop?
You pronounce "tough" ("hard to tear") as "tow" ("pull with a rope")?
or "cough" ("expectorate") as "cow" ("domesticated bovine")?
Of course not; the three words have gone their separate ways. A phonetic
spelling of "tough" here in the midwest is tuff. A phonetic spelling
of "cough" is kawf.
Post by Paul S Person
"plough"/"plow", OTOH, is a good example.
My understanding is that the "gh" was originally something like the
German "ch". Of course, that is voiceless; I do not recall if the "gh"
here is voiced or not. Since it follows a back-vowel, it is presumably
something like the German "ch" in "Ach" rather than that in "Ich".
I have seen and heard a demonstration of the original pronunciation,
possibly in _The Story of English_ on public television. My memory
is that the "gh" was indeed similar to the German "ch" as in Bach but
you could hear a "g" sound as distinct from "c". Rather Klingon like.
That would make it voiced -- which would explain the "g", if any
explanation were possible for English spelling.
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Arabic has both voiced and unvoiced versions -- as separate phonemes.
Post by p***@hotmail.com
My thanks in advance for any information about this.
I always think of it as pronounced as spelled -- but then, I never
investigated the topic so would not know. And I really like
pronouncing "gnashing of teeth" with a nice audible "g" at the start.
For emphasis, of course.
Thank you for your reply,
Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
p***@hotmail.com
2020-01-12 18:25:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by p***@hotmail.com
What is the correct pronunciation for the first name of the New Zealand
mystery writer Ngaio Marsh? I have heard Nie-oh, with a long I in the first
syllable, a long O in the second, and the G silent. However, we typically
get silent letters as in "tough" when the pronunciation of a word changes over
time but the spelling doesn't follow suite. Tough, cough, and plough were all
phonetic spellings at one time, but only plough has changed spelling with the
accepted variant plow. Since Ngaio is a Maori word transliterated into English
it would seem strange that it would be assigned a silent letter. Does the G
possibly represent a non-English sound such as a glottal stop?
You pronounce "tough" ("hard to tear") as "tow" ("pull with a rope")?
or "cough" ("expectorate") as "cow" ("domesticated bovine")?
Of course not; the three words have gone their separate ways. A phonetic
spelling of "tough" here in the midwest is tuff. A phonetic spelling
of "cough" is kawf.
Post by Paul S Person
"plough"/"plow", OTOH, is a good example.
My understanding is that the "gh" was originally something like the
German "ch". Of course, that is voiceless; I do not recall if the "gh"
here is voiced or not. Since it follows a back-vowel, it is presumably
something like the German "ch" in "Ach" rather than that in "Ich".
I have seen and heard a demonstration of the original pronunciation,
possibly in _The Story of English_ on public television. My memory
is that the "gh" was indeed similar to the German "ch" as in Bach but
you could hear a "g" sound as distinct from "c". Rather Klingon like.
That would make it voiced -- which would explain the "g", if any
explanation were possible for English spelling.
What is the meaning of "voiced" in this context?

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-01-12 22:20:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by p***@hotmail.com
What is the correct pronunciation for the first name of the New Zealand
mystery writer Ngaio Marsh? I have heard Nie-oh, with a long I in
the first
Post by Paul S Person
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by p***@hotmail.com
syllable, a long O in the second, and the G silent. However, we typically
get silent letters as in "tough" when the pronunciation of a word
changes over
Post by Paul S Person
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by p***@hotmail.com
time but the spelling doesn't follow suite. Tough, cough, and
plough were all
Post by Paul S Person
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by p***@hotmail.com
phonetic spellings at one time, but only plough has changed
spelling with the
Post by Paul S Person
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by p***@hotmail.com
accepted variant plow. Since Ngaio is a Maori word transliterated
into English
Post by Paul S Person
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by p***@hotmail.com
it would seem strange that it would be assigned a silent letter.
Does the G
Post by Paul S Person
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by p***@hotmail.com
possibly represent a non-English sound such as a glottal stop?
You pronounce "tough" ("hard to tear") as "tow" ("pull with a rope")?
or "cough" ("expectorate") as "cow" ("domesticated bovine")?
Of course not; the three words have gone their separate ways. A phonetic
spelling of "tough" here in the midwest is tuff. A phonetic spelling
of "cough" is kawf.
Post by Paul S Person
"plough"/"plow", OTOH, is a good example.
My understanding is that the "gh" was originally something like the
German "ch". Of course, that is voiceless; I do not recall if the "gh"
here is voiced or not. Since it follows a back-vowel, it is presumably
something like the German "ch" in "Ach" rather than that in "Ich".
I have seen and heard a demonstration of the original pronunciation,
possibly in _The Story of English_ on public television. My memory
is that the "gh" was indeed similar to the German "ch" as in Bach but
you could hear a "g" sound as distinct from "c". Rather Klingon like.
That would make it voiced -- which would explain the "g", if any
explanation were possible for English spelling.
What is the meaning of "voiced" in this context?
The vocal chords are vibrating. 'p' is unvoiced, 'b' is voiced.
Et cetera.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Garrett Wollman
2020-01-12 19:01:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I have seen and heard a demonstration of the original pronunciation,
possibly in _The Story of English_ on public television. My memory
is that the "gh" was indeed similar to the German "ch" as in Bach but
you could hear a "g" sound as distinct from "c". Rather Klingon like.
In most cases, a voiced velar fricative (in formal phonetics terms),
written with the letter yogh 'ʒ' -- both of which have been lost in
modern English. (As has the unvoiced velar fricative, preserved in
German and Dutch.)

(English isn't the only language to have lost velar fricatives;
Finnish used to have one, too, and there are still exceptions in the
otherwise regular verb paradigm as a result.[1] A big part of the
history of every language is sound change, and in many cases sounds
have been lost over relatively sort periods of time -- because
cultural evolution can operate at much higher rates than biological
evolution can or does.)

-GAWollman

[1] For example, the <h> in <tehdä> is the remnant of such a sound, as
evidenced by the stem <teke->: the [ɣ] was the light grade of short
[k], and when the sound was lost, it was replaced with [h] in some
places and nothing at all in others.
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Robert Carnegie
2020-01-11 23:40:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
What is the correct pronunciation for the first name of the New Zealand
mystery writer Ngaio Marsh? I have heard Nie-oh, with a long I in the first
syllable, a long O in the second, and the G silent. However, we typically
get silent letters as in "tough" when the pronunciation of a word changes over
time but the spelling doesn't follow suite. Tough, cough, and plough were all
phonetic spellings at one time, but only plough has changed spelling with the
accepted variant plow. Since Ngaio is a Maori word transliterated into English
it would seem strange that it would be assigned a silent letter. Does the G
possibly represent a non-English sound such as a glottal stop?
My thanks in advance for any information about this.
I think I have only seen Ngaio Marsh in sff
as a feature on the atlas in _Bored of the Rings_.

I don't remember if this is visited in the text -
but elsewhere "now the trees had grown old, clotted
with sneezemoss and toemold, and the Nattily Wood
had become the crotchety old Evilyn."
Loading...