Discussion:
On Anderson's "Anglish"
(too old to reply)
pyotr filipivich
2021-07-23 14:09:25 UTC
Permalink
My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
"Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
--
pyotr filipivich
"Have the Anarchists ever stopped to consider that if they bring
down the American Government, there will be no one to protect
them from the rednecks?"
Quadibloc
2021-07-23 14:12:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
"Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.

So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?

John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-23 15:02:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by pyotr filipivich
My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
"Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
I believe so. See my previous post about the roundaround board
of the firststuffs.
Post by Quadibloc
So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
Not to my knowledge. He would, if I remember correctly, use the
same technique (translate any Latin- or Greek-derived word into
English or Danish or Old Norse) from time to time in other
stories.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jack Bohn
2021-07-24 12:22:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by pyotr filipivich
My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
"Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated to contemporary English for publication.
--
-Jack
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-24 13:14:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Quadibloc
Post by pyotr filipivich
My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
"Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua
franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated
to contemporary English for publication.
Correct. So far as I know, "Uncleftish Beholding" was a one-off.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
pyotr filipivich
2021-07-28 21:11:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Quadibloc
Post by pyotr filipivich
My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
"Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated to contemporary English for publication.
Okay.

What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
to have called it "Anglish") and published them.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
Michael F. Stemper
2021-07-28 22:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Quadibloc
Post by pyotr filipivich
My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
"Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated to contemporary English for publication.
Okay.
What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
to have called it "Anglish") and published them.
Did he actually show any Anglic? I thought that it was all "translated"
to English, kind of like Shire-speech.
--
Michael F. Stemper
No animals were harmed in the composition of this message.
pyotr filipivich
2021-07-29 14:55:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Quadibloc
Post by pyotr filipivich
My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
"Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated to contemporary English for publication.
Okay.
What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
to have called it "Anglish") and published them.
Did he actually show any Anglic? I thought that it was all "translated"
to English, kind of like Shire-speech.
My understanding is that Anderson applied the rules of linguistic
change to Anglo-Saxon (aka Old English) and left out the influence of
Norman French. The result is a language with fewer words from
"Romance" (Latin based) languages and retaining the grammatical
inflections of Old English. Much like modern German, Dutch, usw which
has 'different' articles ('the', 'a') depending on Gender and Case.
(that whole Der, Die, Das, Ein, Eine, Ein thing. e.g.:
The fish. Der Fisch.
A fish Ein Fisch.
One fish, two fishes. Ein Fisch, zwei Fische.
Red fish, blue fish. Roter Fisch, blauer Fisch.
Red fishes, blue fishes. Rote Fische, blaue Fische.
My fish, your fish. Mein Fisch, dein Fisch.
The bowl of my fish. Die Schale mit meinem Fisch.
The cats ate the fish. Die Katzen haben die Fische gefressen.
A cat ate my fish Eine Katze hat meinen Fisch gefressen.
Your cats ate my fishes. Deine Katzen haben meine Fische gefressen.
etc. usw.)

So, without the influence of the Frenchified Norse from 1066
onwards, you could have an "Anglic" which _might_ have retained more
of the Saxon grammar, complete with grammatical inflections,
pre-fixes, suffixes, different articles, und so weiter.

I realize that in novels (or the Moving Pictures), it really
doesn't matter what language the characters are speaking, for the
reader / audience to understand the dialogue it must be 'translated'
into the contemporary target language, I.e., English. I started
working on a conlang where the "genders" are animal, plant, or stone.
Plus "infixes" - 'to (adverb) verb'. After I retire (aging) I shall
resume. Maybe. But any dialogue in a story will have to be
"translated" into English for my reader.

Meanwhile, The Wife wants to work out where English might go as it
transitions more to being an Isolating language, as well as a couple
variants for use by trolls, elves and a third group. Also "Someday".
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
Kevrob
2021-07-29 16:06:55 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 10:55:46 AM UTC-4, pyotr filipivich wrote:

[snip]
Post by pyotr filipivich
So, without the influence of the Frenchified Norse from 1066
onwards, you could have an "Anglic" which _might_ have retained more
of the Saxon grammar, complete with grammatical inflections,
pre-fixes, suffixes, different articles, und so weiter.
I seem to remember off-hand references to Anglic in Star
Trek (TOS) and a little googoling shows that term was used
in some of the novels. "Vulcan's Forge" is one. One wonders
if a "harrumph' from Harrison or his agent may have resulted
in that going down the memory (alpha) hole?
--
Kevin R
Robert Carnegie
2021-07-30 01:15:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
Post by pyotr filipivich
So, without the influence of the Frenchified Norse from 1066
onwards, you could have an "Anglic" which _might_ have retained more
of the Saxon grammar, complete with grammatical inflections,
pre-fixes, suffixes, different articles, und so weiter.
I seem to remember off-hand references to Anglic in Star
Trek (TOS) and a little googoling shows that term was used
in some of the novels. "Vulcan's Forge" is one. One wonders
if a "harrumph' from Harrison or his agent may have resulted
in that going down the memory (alpha) hole?
<https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Federation_Standard>
apparently is... the "Federation Standard" language
in _Star Trek_, but there are half a dozen other words
for it. It may be essentially English, but since French is
reported as no longer used in the twenty-fourth century,
it is not "comme il faut" to say so.

The name "Anglish" is mentioned so maybe "Anglic"
is the adjective.

In James White's "Sector General" setting, speech
translators are used, and a written language called
"Universal" exists alongside single-species languages.
I think the symbols in which it is written can vary,
depending on the sensory preference of a reader,
but an edition in, say, scent patterns would be
different from print or Braille. But would it have to
be... In one story when the translator is broken, they
resort to inter-species communication by doctors'
handwriting.
Quadibloc
2021-07-30 03:57:06 UTC
Permalink
apparently is... the "Federation Standard" language
in _Star Trek_, but there are half a dozen other words
for it. It may be essentially English, but since French is
reported as no longer used in the twenty-fourth century,
it is not "comme il faut" to say so.
Although Jean-Luc Picard still has some acquaintance
with this dead language.

This reminds me of reading one of the Lensman novels;
after several references to the characters speaking a
language called "Standard Interplanetary", we have dialogue
including at least one pun proving that this language is
what we know as English.

John Savard
Thomas Koenig
2021-07-30 05:23:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
This reminds me of reading one of the Lensman novels;
after several references to the characters speaking a
language called "Standard Interplanetary", we have dialogue
including at least one pun proving that this language is
what we know as English.
There are puns that work in several languages, like "Where do cats
go when they die? To purrrgatory", which apparently works
for English, Spanish, Portugese, Italian and French.

And Standard Interplanetary could also have partially been based
on English, so that puns can be translated easily.
Quadibloc
2021-07-30 03:54:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
I seem to remember off-hand references to Anglic in Star
Trek (TOS)
Huh???
Post by Kevrob
and a little googoling shows that term was used
in some of the novels.
Ah. That is possible, I suppose.

John Savard
pyotr filipivich
2021-07-30 18:22:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Kevrob
I seem to remember off-hand references to Anglic in Star
Trek (TOS)
Huh???
There is always the issue of defining the "Current" language as
"not the English you knew in 1950/2020."
My Old English is not up to it, so you will just have to imagine a
book written in MVI set in the far future (MDC or later) where the
people speak a form of "Anglo-Saxon" which is quite different from
what "we" know the language to be.
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Kevrob
and a little googoling shows that term was used
in some of the novels.
Ah. That is possible, I suppose.
You have to call it something.

I used to refer to a made up alphabet as "Gaelic" ... till I met
some Scots who knew the Gael. I now call it "reformed Martian."
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-30 21:14:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Kevrob
I seem to remember off-hand references to Anglic in Star
Trek (TOS)
Huh???
There is always the issue of defining the "Current" language as
"not the English you knew in 1950/2020."
My Old English is not up to it, so you will just have to imagine a
book written in MVI set in the far future (MDC or later) where the
people speak a form of "Anglo-Saxon" which is quite different from
what "we" know the language to be.
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Kevrob
and a little googoling shows that term was used
in some of the novels.
Ah. That is possible, I suppose.
You have to call it something.
I used to refer to a made up alphabet as "Gaelic" ... till I met
some Scots who knew the Gael. I now call it "reformed Martian."
Clearly, you are a cool dude. Best of luck with your future
conlang construction.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-29 23:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
My understanding is that Anderson applied the rules of linguistic
change to Anglo-Saxon (aka Old English) and left out the influence of
Norman French.
But left in some of the traces of Norman Danish. "Ymirstuff," e.g.

The Danes started moving in in, when was it, the ninth century?
and after coming in and raiding and going away again, they started
settling down.

In Robert MacNeil's _The Story of English, T. A. Shippey points
out that many of the roots in OE and ON were very similar, but
their inflectional endings were different. So Saxons and Danes
living near each other started talking with naked stems, which is
why English has so few inflectional endings today.
Post by pyotr filipivich
So, without the influence of the Frenchified Norse from 1066
onwards, you could have an "Anglic" which _might_ have retained more
of the Saxon grammar, complete with grammatical inflections,
pre-fixes, suffixes, different articles, und so weiter.
I realize that in novels (or the Moving Pictures), it really
doesn't matter what language the characters are speaking, for the
reader / audience to understand the dialogue it must be 'translated'
into the contemporary target language, I.e., English. I started
working on a conlang where the "genders" are animal, plant, or stone.
Cool!
Post by pyotr filipivich
Plus "infixes" - 'to (adverb) verb'.
Also cool. Back in the sixties, when I invented a small Vulcan
conlang, I included evidentials, obligatory morphemes that
specify where the speaker go his information (saw it, heard it,
heard tell of it, heard an old tale about it, dreamed it).

After I retire (aging) I shall
Post by pyotr filipivich
resume. Maybe. But any dialogue in a story will have to be
"translated" into English for my reader.
Of course. Good luck to your endeavors.
Post by pyotr filipivich
Meanwhile, The Wife wants to work out where English might go as it
transitions more to being an Isolating language, as well as a couple
variants for use by trolls, elves and a third group. Also "Someday".
I'm sitting on a rough draft of a fantasy in which the elves
speak a language full of sibilants, so that my protagonist (whose
first language is Frankish) thinks it sounds like a snake taught
to speak like an owl. :) But I didn't endeavor to make up any
of it except a few proper names.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-29 00:51:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Quadibloc
Post by pyotr filipivich
My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
"Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua
franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated
to contemporary English for publication.
Okay.
What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
to have called it "Anglish") and published them.
No, to the best of my knowledge it was a one-off. I forget where it
was first published, but it then appeared in a NESFA collection,
whereof I have a copy.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
J. Clarke
2021-07-29 01:26:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Quadibloc
Post by pyotr filipivich
My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
"Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua
franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated
to contemporary English for publication.
Okay.
What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
to have called it "Anglish") and published them.
No, to the best of my knowledge it was a one-off. I forget where it
was first published, but it then appeared in a NESFA collection,
whereof I have a copy.
I first read it in one of the magazines--likely Analog, possibly
Galaxy, pretty sure it wasn't Omni, and those are the only ones I used
to read.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2021-07-29 01:34:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Quadibloc
Post by pyotr filipivich
My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
"Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua
franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated
to contemporary English for publication.
Okay.
What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
to have called it "Anglish") and published them.
No, to the best of my knowledge it was a one-off. I forget where it
was first published, but it then appeared in a NESFA collection,
whereof I have a copy.
I first read it in one of the magazines--likely Analog, possibly
Galaxy, pretty sure it wasn't Omni, and those are the only ones I used
to read.
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?56986
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-29 03:12:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Quadibloc
Post by pyotr filipivich
My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
"Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua
franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated
to contemporary English for publication.
Okay.
What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
to have called it "Anglish") and published them.
No, to the best of my knowledge it was a one-off. I forget where it
was first published, but it then appeared in a NESFA collection,
whereof I have a copy.
I first read it in one of the magazines--likely Analog, possibly
Galaxy, pretty sure it wasn't Omni, and those are the only ones I used
to read.
ISFDB having let me down, I append a link to the Wikipedia
article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncleftish_Beholding
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2021-07-29 04:58:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Quadibloc
Post by pyotr filipivich
My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
"Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua
franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated
to contemporary English for publication.
Okay.
What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
to have called it "Anglish") and published them.
No, to the best of my knowledge it was a one-off. I forget where it
was first published, but it then appeared in a NESFA collection,
whereof I have a copy.
I first read it in one of the magazines--likely Analog, possibly
Galaxy, pretty sure it wasn't Omni, and those are the only ones I used
to read.
ISFDB having let me down, I append a link to the Wikipedia
article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncleftish_Beholding
It's certainly listed, albeit not under fiction.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
pyotr filipivich
2021-07-29 14:55:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Quadibloc
Post by pyotr filipivich
My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
"Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua
franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated
to contemporary English for publication.
Okay.
What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
to have called it "Anglish") and published them.
No, to the best of my knowledge it was a one-off. I forget where it
was first published, but it then appeared in a NESFA collection,
whereof I have a copy.
I've a copy of _Uncleftish Beholding_ myself. Beyond that, "Ich
weisse nichts."
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
Jack Bohn
2021-07-29 13:41:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Quadibloc
Post by pyotr filipivich
My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
"Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated to contemporary English for publication.
Okay.
What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
to have called it "Anglish") and published them.
No, no, my mistake. "Anglish" is a good term. It's only problem is that is was similar to "Anglic" which Anderson used for a background universal language. If anything, it adds to my list of things to do with a time machine: suggest Anderson use some other term (Standard, Interlac, Basic) for that language to save Anglish for his eventual "Uncleftish Beholding."
--
-Jack
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-29 23:43:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Quadibloc
Post by pyotr filipivich
My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
"Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
And here I thought that Uncleftish Beholding _was_ that one place.
So he also used it on other occasions, in other works?
OK, I was confused for a while. "Anglic" is his term for the lingua
franca used in -at least- the Van Rijn stories. It was fully translated
to contemporary English for publication.
Post by pyotr filipivich
Okay.
What my wife has in mind is several other "constructed languages"
such as Hildigard of Bingen's "Lingua Ignota". She was wondering if
Anderson has had anyone collect the useages of his Anglic (my mistake
to have called it "Anglish") and published them.
No, no, my mistake. "Anglish" is a good term. It's only problem is
that is was similar to "Anglic" which Anderson used for a background
universal language. If anything, it adds to my list of things to do
with a time machine: suggest Anderson use some other term (Standard,
Interlac, Basic) for that language to save Anglish for his eventual
"Uncleftish Beholding."
I knew Poul Anderson well. One of his salient characteristics
was modesty. He would not have thought anyone would be so
detail-oriented (read, nit-picky) to go over his invented
vocabulary choices and ask why this one didn't mesh with that
one.

When someone pointed out something in any of his stories that
didn't mesh with known physics, he would shrug and say, "Y'know,
the name is Anderson, not God."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-23 14:59:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
My wife the linguist wonders if anyone has compiled Anderson use of
"Anlgish" (what he wrote Uncleftish Beholding in) into one place.
Not to my knowledge. Back when it was printed (nearly fifty
years ago) I got out a large sheet of paper and filled in the
roundaround board of the firststuffs. (This was before we had
children!) Unfortunately, it got lost sometime when we were
moving house, and I don't think I could reconstruct it now.

I invented the names that Poul hadn't supplied by using his own
technique: translate them out of Latin or Greek into English,
trim to fit.

I forget what I used for the four elements named after the little
Swedish island Ytterby.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Quadibloc
2021-07-23 16:05:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I forget what I used for the four elements named after the little
Swedish island Ytterby.
I remember Isaac Asimov commenting on the unfairness of it
all...

Ytterbium, Yttrium, Terbium and Erbium, of course.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2021-07-23 16:20:19 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 09:05:49 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I forget what I used for the four elements named after the little
Swedish island Ytterby.
I remember Isaac Asimov commenting on the unfairness of it
all...
Ytterbium, Yttrium, Terbium and Erbium, of course.
Those are Latin suffixes, which are not allowed under the rules of the
Uncleftish Beholding game.
Quadibloc
2021-07-23 17:25:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Those are Latin suffixes, which are not allowed under the rules of the
Uncleftish Beholding game.
I just idenfied which elements she spoke of. Not what they would have
been on the roundaround board of the firststuffs.

Ytterbystuff, Yttrstuff, Terstuff, and Erstuff, perhaps? Since there's not
much one can do with that proper name.

John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-23 21:02:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I forget what I used for the four elements named after the little
Swedish island Ytterby.
I remember Isaac Asimov commenting on the unfairness of it
all...
Ytterbium, Yttrium, Terbium and Erbium, of course.
Yes, I know the names used in our reality. What I can't remember
is the names I invented for the roundaround board.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Bo Lindbergh
2021-08-03 15:25:36 UTC
Permalink
Tangent: Graydon Saunders made some different choices in _The Human Dress_
which I think work better. Oxygen => "lifebreath" and nitrogen => "deadair"
for example.

/Bo Lindbergh
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-03 15:24:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bo Lindbergh
Tangent: Graydon Saunders made some different choices in _The Human Dress_
which I think work better. Oxygen => "lifebreath" and nitrogen => "deadair"
for example.
By the way: I found my copy of _Homebrew_, the NESFA-published
limited-edition collection of Poul's lesser-known works, many of
which were previously published in fanzines. (It was not in the
fiction room; it was on Hal's desk, buried in 3x5" cards.)

The essay under discussion was originally titled "Uncleavish
Truethinking," and was published in ... well, I'll quote it,
because it gives a few Anglish forms that don't appear in the
essay itself.

"_Uncleavish Truethinking_, firstly in THE ANGLO-SAXON CHRONICLE,
book 922, tale 7. Outgiverright (c) 1960 by Hardrada Bookwright
Fellowship."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
pyotr filipivich
2021-08-04 04:20:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Bo Lindbergh
Tangent: Graydon Saunders made some different choices in _The Human Dress_
which I think work better. Oxygen => "lifebreath" and nitrogen => "deadair"
for example.
By the way: I found my copy of _Homebrew_, the NESFA-published
limited-edition collection of Poul's lesser-known works, many of
which were previously published in fanzines. (It was not in the
fiction room; it was on Hal's desk, buried in 3x5" cards.)
The essay under discussion was originally titled "Uncleavish
Truethinking," and was published in ... well, I'll quote it,
because it gives a few Anglish forms that don't appear in the
essay itself.
"_Uncleavish Truethinking_, firstly in THE ANGLO-SAXON CHRONICLE,
book 922, tale 7. Outgiverright (c) 1960 by Hardrada Bookwright
Fellowship."
Danke.

pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
Kevrob
2021-08-06 04:49:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Bo Lindbergh
Tangent: Graydon Saunders made some different choices in _The Human Dress_
which I think work better. Oxygen => "lifebreath" and nitrogen => "deadair"
for example.
By the way: I found my copy of _Homebrew_, the NESFA-published
limited-edition collection of Poul's lesser-known works, many of
which were previously published in fanzines. (It was not in the
fiction room; it was on Hal's desk, buried in 3x5" cards.)
The essay under discussion was originally titled "Uncleavish
Truethinking," and was published in ... well, I'll quote it,
because it gives a few Anglish forms that don't appear in the
essay itself.
"_Uncleavish Truethinking_, firstly in THE ANGLO-SAXON CHRONICLE,
book 922, tale 7. Outgiverright (c) 1960 by Hardrada Bookwright
Fellowship."
Danke.
"Chronicle" is a bit Latinate, isn't it? hat would the Angle, Saxons &
Jutes have called a chronicle?

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=chronicle
--
Kevin R
Christian Weisgerber
2021-08-06 18:17:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"_Uncleavish Truethinking_, firstly in THE ANGLO-SAXON CHRONICLE,
book 922, tale 7. Outgiverright (c) 1960 by Hardrada Bookwright
Fellowship."
"Chronicle" is a bit Latinate, isn't it? hat would the Angle, Saxons &
Jutes have called a chronicle?
You mean how _did_ they call the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle in Old English?
Oddly, the Wikipedia articles--I checked several languages--don't
say so. I guess the surviving manuscripts don't include a title?
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-06 18:51:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"_Uncleavish Truethinking_, firstly in THE ANGLO-SAXON CHRONICLE,
book 922, tale 7. Outgiverright (c) 1960 by Hardrada Bookwright
Fellowship."
"Chronicle" is a bit Latinate, isn't it? hat would the Angle, Saxons &
Jutes have called a chronicle?
You mean how _did_ they call the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle in Old English?
Oddly, the Wikipedia articles--I checked several languages--don't
say so. I guess the surviving manuscripts don't include a title?
And if there were a label on the back of the codex (not always
the case; if you had five books in your library you'd know them
by their size, shape, and color), it probably said "Historia" or
"Annalia".
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Robert Carnegie
2021-08-06 20:01:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"_Uncleavish Truethinking_, firstly in THE ANGLO-SAXON CHRONICLE,
book 922, tale 7. Outgiverright (c) 1960 by Hardrada Bookwright
Fellowship."
"Chronicle" is a bit Latinate, isn't it? hat would the Angle, Saxons &
Jutes have called a chronicle?
You mean how _did_ they call the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle in Old English?
Oddly, the Wikipedia articles--I checked several languages--don't
say so. I guess the surviving manuscripts don't include a title?
And if there were a label on the back of the codex (not always
the case; if you had five books in your library you'd know them
by their size, shape, and color), it probably said "Historia" or
"Annalia".
I don't have a copy, but options seem to include
"Early English Annals" and "The Bilingual Canterbury
Epitome"!

Some newspapers have strange names: there was
a "Leicester Daily Mercury". I don't imagine that on
Mercury there's a "Daily Leicester".
Scott Lurndal
2021-08-06 20:45:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And if there were a label on the back of the codex (not always
the case; if you had five books in your library you'd know them
by their size, shape, and color), it probably said "Historia" or
"Annalia".
I don't have a copy, but options seem to include
"Early English Annals" and "The Bilingual Canterbury
Epitome"!
Some newspapers have strange names: there was
a "Leicester Daily Mercury". I don't imagine that on
Mercury there's a "Daily Leicester".
Although in this case, Mercury likely refers to the god
of communciations, not the planet.
Kevrob
2021-08-06 21:19:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"_Uncleavish Truethinking_, firstly in THE ANGLO-SAXON CHRONICLE,
book 922, tale 7. Outgiverright (c) 1960 by Hardrada Bookwright
Fellowship."
"Chronicle" is a bit Latinate, isn't it? [W]hat would the Angle[s],
Saxons & Jutes have called a chronicle?
You mean how _did_ they call the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle in Old English?
Oddly, the Wikipedia articles--I checked several languages--don't
say so. I guess the surviving manuscripts don't include a title?
And if there were a label on the back of the codex (not always
the case; if you had five books in your library you'd know them
by their size, shape, and color), it probably said "Historia" or
"Annalia".
--
Both foreign loanwords (Greek through Latin, Latin)
--
Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-06 23:10:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"_Uncleavish Truethinking_, firstly in THE ANGLO-SAXON CHRONICLE,
book 922, tale 7. Outgiverright (c) 1960 by Hardrada Bookwright
Fellowship."
"Chronicle" is a bit Latinate, isn't it? [W]hat would the Angle[s],
Saxons & Jutes have called a chronicle?
You mean how _did_ they call the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle in Old English?
Oddly, the Wikipedia articles--I checked several languages--don't
say so. I guess the surviving manuscripts don't include a title?
And if there were a label on the back of the codex (not always
the case; if you had five books in your library you'd know them
by their size, shape, and color), it probably said "Historia" or
"Annalia".
--
Both foreign loanwords (Greek through Latin, Latin)
Yes. But remember where the books were kept: in monasteries.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2021-08-07 02:05:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"_Uncleavish Truethinking_, firstly in THE ANGLO-SAXON CHRONICLE,
book 922, tale 7. Outgiverright (c) 1960 by Hardrada Bookwright
Fellowship."
"Chronicle" is a bit Latinate, isn't it? [W]hat would the Angle[s],
Saxons & Jutes have called a chronicle?
You mean how _did_ they call the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle in Old English?
Oddly, the Wikipedia articles--I checked several languages--don't
say so. I guess the surviving manuscripts don't include a title?
And if there were a label on the back of the codex (not always
the case; if you had five books in your library you'd know them
by their size, shape, and color), it probably said "Historia" or
"Annalia".
--
Both foreign loanwords (Greek through Latin, Latin)
Yes. But remember where the books were kept: in monasteries.
--
Would "tale" work for those without Latin?

https://www.etymonline.com/word/tale
--
Kevin R
Quadibloc
2021-08-06 21:26:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Oddly, the Wikipedia articles--I checked several languages--don't
say so. I guess the surviving manuscripts don't include a title?
My guess for the reason might be it wasn't collected into a single
volume, or considered a single work, until later?

John Savard
pyotr filipivich
2021-08-06 19:27:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"_Uncleavish Truethinking_, firstly in THE ANGLO-SAXON CHRONICLE,
book 922, tale 7. Outgiverright (c) 1960 by Hardrada Bookwright
Fellowship."
Danke.
"Chronicle" is a bit Latinate, isn't it? hat would the Angle, Saxons &
Jutes have called a chronicle?
Saga?
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
J. Clarke
2021-08-06 20:01:46 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 12:27:15 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by Kevrob
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"_Uncleavish Truethinking_, firstly in THE ANGLO-SAXON CHRONICLE,
book 922, tale 7. Outgiverright (c) 1960 by Hardrada Bookwright
Fellowship."
Danke.
"Chronicle" is a bit Latinate, isn't it? hat would the Angle, Saxons &
Jutes have called a chronicle?
Saga?
Would they have called it anything before the Romans showed up and
introduced them to the concept?
Paul S Person
2021-08-07 16:42:15 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 16:01:46 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 12:27:15 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by Kevrob
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"_Uncleavish Truethinking_, firstly in THE ANGLO-SAXON CHRONICLE,
book 922, tale 7. Outgiverright (c) 1960 by Hardrada Bookwright
Fellowship."
Danke.
"Chronicle" is a bit Latinate, isn't it? hat would the Angle, Saxons &
Jutes have called a chronicle?
Saga?
Would they have called it anything before the Romans showed up and
introduced them to the concept?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_Chronicle> states that

The original manuscript of the Chronicle was created late in the 9th
century, probably in Wessex, during the reign of Alfred the Great (r.
871–899). Multiple copies were made of that one original and then
distributed to monasteries across England, where they were
independently updated. In one case, the Chronicle was still being
actively updated in 1154.

which was long after the Romans had come and gone.

Perhaps, even at that time, "Chronicle" was a loan-word.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-07 17:24:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 16:01:46 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 12:27:15 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by Kevrob
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"_Uncleavish Truethinking_, firstly in THE ANGLO-SAXON CHRONICLE,
book 922, tale 7. Outgiverright (c) 1960 by Hardrada Bookwright
Fellowship."
Danke.
"Chronicle" is a bit Latinate, isn't it? hat would the Angle, Saxons &
Jutes have called a chronicle?
Saga?
Would they have called it anything before the Romans showed up and
introduced them to the concept?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_Chronicle> states that
The original manuscript of the Chronicle was created late in the 9th
century, probably in Wessex, during the reign of Alfred the Great (r.
871–899). Multiple copies were made of that one original and then
distributed to monasteries across England, where they were
independently updated. In one case, the Chronicle was still being
actively updated in 1154.
which was long after the Romans had come and gone.
Perhaps, even at that time, "Chronicle" was a loan-word.
That, I can't say. Wish I could.

But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the Church in
England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Canterbury
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
William Hyde
2021-08-07 20:27:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 16:01:46 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 12:27:15 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"_Uncleavish Truethinking_, firstly in THE ANGLO-SAXON CHRONICLE,
book 922, tale 7. Outgiverright (c) 1960 by Hardrada Bookwright
Fellowship."
Danke.
"Chronicle" is a bit Latinate, isn't it? hat would the Angle, Saxons &
Jutes have called a chronicle?
Saga?
Would they have called it anything before the Romans showed up and
introduced them to the concept?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_Chronicle> states that
The original manuscript of the Chronicle was created late in the 9th
century, probably in Wessex, during the reign of Alfred the Great (r.
871–899). Multiple copies were made of that one original and then
distributed to monasteries across England, where they were
independently updated. In one case, the Chronicle was still being
actively updated in 1154.
which was long after the Romans had come and gone.
Perhaps, even at that time, "Chronicle" was a loan-word.
That, I can't say. Wish I could.
But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the Church in
England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came with it.
Nitpick: Christianity was still common in the west, while Northumbria's population had a substantial Christian element, due to Irish missionaries (our SF connection, of course, being De Camp's "The Wheels
of If").

St Augustine re-established the Catholic church, thereby ensuring, as it turned out,
almost a thousand years of revenue for Rome, and forever altering the calculation
of the date of Easter in the UK.

William Hyde
pete...@gmail.com
2021-08-08 05:08:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 16:01:46 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 12:27:15 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"_Uncleavish Truethinking_, firstly in THE ANGLO-SAXON CHRONICLE,
book 922, tale 7. Outgiverright (c) 1960 by Hardrada Bookwright
Fellowship."
Danke.
"Chronicle" is a bit Latinate, isn't it? hat would the Angle, Saxons &
Jutes have called a chronicle?
Saga?
Would they have called it anything before the Romans showed up and
introduced them to the concept?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_Chronicle> states that
The original manuscript of the Chronicle was created late in the 9th
century, probably in Wessex, during the reign of Alfred the Great (r.
871–899). Multiple copies were made of that one original and then
distributed to monasteries across England, where they were
independently updated. In one case, the Chronicle was still being
actively updated in 1154.
which was long after the Romans had come and gone.
Perhaps, even at that time, "Chronicle" was a loan-word.
That, I can't say. Wish I could.
But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the Church in
England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came with it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Canterbury
Christianity existed in Britain at least back to the early 3rd Century.
There is good evidence of continuity up until Augustine's arrival.

Pt
J. Clarke
2021-08-08 14:02:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 16:01:46 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 12:27:15 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"_Uncleavish Truethinking_, firstly in THE ANGLO-SAXON CHRONICLE,
book 922, tale 7. Outgiverright (c) 1960 by Hardrada Bookwright
Fellowship."
Danke.
"Chronicle" is a bit Latinate, isn't it? hat would the Angle, Saxons &
Jutes have called a chronicle?
Saga?
Would they have called it anything before the Romans showed up and
introduced them to the concept?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_Chronicle> states that
The original manuscript of the Chronicle was created late in the 9th
century, probably in Wessex, during the reign of Alfred the Great (r.
871–899). Multiple copies were made of that one original and then
distributed to monasteries across England, where they were
independently updated. In one case, the Chronicle was still being
actively updated in 1154.
which was long after the Romans had come and gone.
Perhaps, even at that time, "Chronicle" was a loan-word.
That, I can't say. Wish I could.
But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the Church in
England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came with it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Canterbury
Christianity existed in Britain at least back to the early 3rd Century.
There is good evidence of continuity up until Augustine's arrival.
Did the Latin loan-words come with the Church or with Caesar?
Post by ***@gmail.com
Pt
pyotr filipivich
2021-08-10 02:52:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the Church in
England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came with it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Canterbury
Christianity existed in Britain at least back to the early 3rd Century.
There is good evidence of continuity up until Augustine's arrival.
Did the Latin loan-words come with the Church or with Caesar?
Post by ***@gmail.com
Pt
When did the Romans leave Britannia?
When did the Anglo Saxons arrive?
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
pete...@gmail.com
2021-08-10 04:31:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by J. Clarke
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the Church in
England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came with it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Canterbury
Christianity existed in Britain at least back to the early 3rd Century.
There is good evidence of continuity up until Augustine's arrival.
Did the Latin loan-words come with the Church or with Caesar?
When did the Romans leave Britannia?
When did the Anglo Saxons arrive?
It was a gradual withdrawal. Many point to 411 AD,
when the Emperor Honorius replied to a request for help, with a
message that amounted to 'Sorry, you're on you own.'

Again, the arrival of the Saxons was gradual, but most accounts
would put it 20-30 years later.

Pt
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-10 04:41:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by J. Clarke
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the Church in
England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came with it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Canterbury
Christianity existed in Britain at least back to the early 3rd Century.
There is good evidence of continuity up until Augustine's arrival.
Did the Latin loan-words come with the Church or with Caesar?
When did the Romans leave Britannia?
When did the Anglo Saxons arrive?
It was a gradual withdrawal. Many point to 411 AD,
when the Emperor Honorius replied to a request for help, with a
message that amounted to 'Sorry, you're on you own.'
Again, the arrival of the Saxons was gradual, but most accounts
would put it 20-30 years later.
Romans leave; Saxons see opportunity.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
William Hyde
2021-08-10 20:32:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by J. Clarke
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the Church in
England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came with it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Canterbury
Christianity existed in Britain at least back to the early 3rd Century.
There is good evidence of continuity up until Augustine's arrival.
Did the Latin loan-words come with the Church or with Caesar?
When did the Romans leave Britannia?
When did the Anglo Saxons arrive?
It was a gradual withdrawal. Many point to 411 AD,
when the Emperor Honorius replied to a request for help, with a
message that amounted to 'Sorry, you're on you own.'
Again, the arrival of the Saxons was gradual, but most accounts
would put it 20-30 years later.
Romans leave; Saxons see opportunity.
Despite the invasions, Roman Britain seems to have survived and even expanded economically for
some decades, due in part to a lack of Roman taxation.

Steven Baxter portrays this to some degree in the first two hundred pages of his novel
"Coalescent". I enjoyed the non-SF part of that book more than most of his SF.

William Hyde
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-08-10 20:43:00 UTC
Permalink
On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 12:55:03 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
On Monday, August 9, 2021 at 10:52:10 PM UTC-4, pyotr
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by J. Clarke
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the
Church in England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came
with it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Canterbury
Christianity existed in Britain at least back to the early
3rd Century. There is good evidence of continuity up until
Augustine's arrival.
Did the Latin loan-words come with the Church or with
Caesar?
When did the Romans leave Britannia?
When did the Anglo Saxons arrive?
It was a gradual withdrawal. Many point to 411 AD,
when the Emperor Honorius replied to a request for help, with
a message that amounted to 'Sorry, you're on you own.'
Again, the arrival of the Saxons was gradual, but most
accounts would put it 20-30 years later.
Romans leave; Saxons see opportunity.
Despite the invasions, Roman Britain seems to have survived and
even expanded economically for some decades, due in part to a
lack of Roman taxation.
It did quite well until sometime in the latter half of the 5th
century. There were (so far as we can tell) two major revolts by
the "Saxon" (there were several tribes) mercenaries, both of which
resulted in a mass migration of people with the means from Britain
to Amorica (now Brittany, for obvious reasons). Many of these were
skilled artisans and craftsmen, and they took a good deal of the
Roman economy with them. That, and the practical changes needed to
suppress the ex-mercenaries/now-invaders (which involved fortifying
cities, and the end of pax romana, was when it ceased being Roman
Britain and started to become Wales and Cornwall (though both names
were some time off).
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
William Hyde
2021-08-10 20:14:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by J. Clarke
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the Church in
England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came with it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Canterbury
Christianity existed in Britain at least back to the early 3rd Century.
There is good evidence of continuity up until Augustine's arrival.
Did the Latin loan-words come with the Church or with Caesar?
When did the Romans leave Britannia?
When did the Anglo Saxons arrive?
It was a gradual withdrawal. Many point to 411 AD,
when the Emperor Honorius replied to a request for help, with a
message that amounted to 'Sorry, you're on you own.'
Again, the arrival of the Saxons was gradual, but most accounts
would put it 20-30 years later.
Some were already there, and had been for generations, as Roman
auxiliaries. No source that I have read gives a firm estimate of their numbers,
though. Might have been tens of thousands - Roman soldiers were not allowed
to marry, but that didn't stop them from having families.

Might also have been a thousand or so, if most left when the Romans did.

William Hyde
pyotr filipivich
2021-08-09 17:17:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by J. Clarke
Would they have called it anything before the Romans showed up and
introduced them to the concept?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_Chronicle> states that
The original manuscript of the Chronicle was created late in the 9th
century, probably in Wessex, during the reign of Alfred the Great (r.
871–899). Multiple copies were made of that one original and then
distributed to monasteries across England, where they were
independently updated. In one case, the Chronicle was still being
actively updated in 1154.
which was long after the Romans had come and gone.
Perhaps, even at that time, "Chronicle" was a loan-word.
That, I can't say. Wish I could.
But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the Church in
England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came with it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Canterbury
Christianity existed in Britain at least back to the early 3rd Century.
There is good evidence of continuity up until Augustine's arrival.
Pt
Holy Well is where Joseph of Aramathia landed (supposedly on one
of his tin purchasing trips).
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
pete...@gmail.com
2021-08-10 00:55:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by J. Clarke
Would they have called it anything before the Romans showed up and
introduced them to the concept?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_Chronicle> states that
The original manuscript of the Chronicle was created late in the 9th
century, probably in Wessex, during the reign of Alfred the Great (r.
871–899). Multiple copies were made of that one original and then
distributed to monasteries across England, where they were
independently updated. In one case, the Chronicle was still being
actively updated in 1154.
which was long after the Romans had come and gone.
Perhaps, even at that time, "Chronicle" was a loan-word.
That, I can't say. Wish I could.
But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the Church in
England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came with it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Canterbury
Christianity existed in Britain at least back to the early 3rd Century.
There is good evidence of continuity up until Augustine's arrival.
Pt
Holy Well is where Joseph of Aramathia landed (supposedly on one
of his tin purchasing trips).
You're thinking of Chalice Well, in Glastonbury. I spent several years at
a nearby boarding school.

There's a lot of legends in the area. In one, Joseph is said to have brought the boy Jesus to Britain with him. This is referenced in the hymn 'Jerusalem'. After the crucifixion, Joseph is supposed to have returned with the Holy Grail. There he supposedly built the first Christian church in Britain.

For proof of Christianity in Roman Britain, the 3rd mosaic in this article clinches it.
https://britishheritage.com/history/old-masters-mosaics-roman-britain

Pt
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-08-10 20:31:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 16:01:46 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 12:27:15 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"_Uncleavish Truethinking_, firstly in THE ANGLO-SAXON
CHRONICLE,
book 922, tale 7. Outgiverright (c) 1960 by Hardrada
Bookwright Fellowship."
Danke.
"Chronicle" is a bit Latinate, isn't it? hat would the
Angle, Saxons
&
Post by Paul S Person
Post by J. Clarke
Jutes have called a chronicle?
Saga?
Would they have called it anything before the Romans showed
up and introduced them to the concept?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_Chronicle> states
that
The original manuscript of the Chronicle was created late in
the 9th century, probably in Wessex, during the reign of
Alfred the Great (r. 871–899). Multiple copies were made of
that one original and the
n
Post by Paul S Person
distributed to monasteries across England, where they were
independently updated. In one case, the Chronicle was still
being actively updated in 1154.
which was long after the Romans had come and gone.
Perhaps, even at that time, "Chronicle" was a loan-word.
That, I can't say. Wish I could.
But St. Augustine of Canterbury re-established the Church in
England in 597 CE, and Latin loan-words came with it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Canterbury
Christianity existed in Britain at least back to the early 3rd
Century. There is good evidence of continuity up until
Augustine's arrival.
Christianty came to Britain pretty early, along with heresy (they
didn't invent Pelogianism, but they certainly embraced it). And in
the Celtic/Roman population, it was continuously present. After
Rome abandoned them, it sort of split into a separate branch
sometimes referred to as the Celtic Church. Basically (and horribly
oversimplying), it remained much the same as the Roman Church
developed into a recognizable Catholic Church. The reunification
came after (or as) the English were Christianized. It's not well
documented, because it was, astonishingly, very peaceful, as the
biships on both sides debated the theological issues like grown
ups, and agreed on who was right. (Catholics came out on top on the
form of the tonsure and the method of computing the date of Easter,
the Celtics on private vs public confession.)
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-07 17:17:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 06 Aug 2021 12:27:15 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by Kevrob
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"_Uncleavish Truethinking_, firstly in THE ANGLO-SAXON CHRONICLE,
book 922, tale 7. Outgiverright (c) 1960 by Hardrada Bookwright
Fellowship."
Danke.
"Chronicle" is a bit Latinate, isn't it? hat would the Angle, Saxons &
Jutes have called a chronicle?
Saga?
Would they have called it anything before the Romans showed up and
introduced them to the concept?
Not sure what the Britons would have called it. Most cultures
have the "history", be it in ballad or poem, or a "written" version
(which may not be letters, but images of the year's significant
events.)
True. There are all those Aztec codices, which do have some
writing, but only to identify the main characters.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
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