Discussion:
[tor dot com] Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
Add Reply
James Nicoll
2021-05-20 14:05:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-up-easily/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Lynn McGuire
2021-05-20 18:31:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-up-easily/
Zero for five here.

Perry Rhodan belongs on this list big time ! ! ! ! !

Lynn
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-20 22:22:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-up-easily/
Zero for five here.
Perry Rhodan belongs on this list big time ! ! ! ! !
I nominate Gully Foyle, in Bester's _The Stars My Destination._
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Lynn McGuire
2021-05-20 23:34:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-up-easily/
Zero for five here.
Perry Rhodan belongs on this list big time ! ! ! ! !
I nominate Gully Foyle, in Bester's _The Stars My Destination._
And I nominate David Rice in Steve Gould's "Jumper" novel.

Lynn
Martin
2021-05-21 12:26:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-up-easily/
Zero for five here.
Perry Rhodan belongs on this list big time ! ! ! ! !
I nominate Gully Foyle, in Bester's _The Stars My Destination._
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Gully Foyle jumped to my mind instantly when I saw the topic (along with his non-SF predecessor, Edmond Dantes).

Another candidate: Kimball Kinnison.
Quadibloc
2021-05-23 23:12:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Perry Rhodan belongs on this list big time ! ! ! ! !
No doubt he doesn't give up easily. But I doubt that James Nicoll would
have selected the books in which he features as Worth Reading.

John Savard
Lynn McGuire
2021-05-24 03:39:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Lynn McGuire
Perry Rhodan belongs on this list big time ! ! ! ! !
No doubt he doesn't give up easily. But I doubt that James Nicoll would
have selected the books in which he features as Worth Reading.
John Savard
At over 4,000 books, novels, and comics, Perry Rhodan is very persistent.

Lynn
Lynn McGuire
2021-05-20 23:23:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-up-easily/
I predict that the next article will be "Five SFF Novels Featuring Women
Who Don't Give Up Easily".

Lynn
Robert Woodward
2021-05-21 05:27:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-u
p-easily/
I predict that the next article will be "Five SFF Novels Featuring Women
Who Don't Give Up Easily".
Since James had his irony (or is it sarcasm) dialed up for the above
posting, he probably would never do your suggestion. After all, the
whole genre is well populated with protagonists and antagonists (not to
mention outright villains) who don't give up easily.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Robert Carnegie
2021-05-21 10:38:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-u
p-easily/
I predict that the next article will be "Five SFF Novels Featuring Women
Who Don't Give Up Easily".
Since James had his irony (or is it sarcasm) dialed up for the above
posting, he probably would never do your suggestion. After all, the
whole genre is well populated with protagonists and antagonists (not to
mention outright villains) who don't give up easily.
A hidden purpose was detected in the comments:
that none of the authors are gendered male. Maybe
they are weird in other ways too. :-) In other words
he's at it again. ;-)

I was pretty much oblivious to this point, presumably
only intelligent readers were supposed to notice, and
I think that my contribution, such as it is, is pretty much
what it would have been without that knowledge.

James's capsule reviews of the books may be not
sarcasm-free, I haven't gone back to remind myself,
but I believe they are intended as fair reviews of
notable texts.

If he does "Five Novels Featuring A Realistic Female
Character" within the next month, then I award myself
points.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2021-05-21 13:44:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-u
p-easily/
I predict that the next article will be "Five SFF Novels Featuring Women
Who Don't Give Up Easily".
Since James had his irony (or is it sarcasm) dialed up for the above
posting, he probably would never do your suggestion. After all, the
whole genre is well populated with protagonists and antagonists (not to
mention outright villains) who don't give up easily.
"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit.
There's no point in being a damn fool about it."

W. C. Fields
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
James Nicoll
2021-05-21 14:10:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
whole genre is well populated with protagonists and antagonists (not to
mention outright villains) who don't give up easily.
Back when I read for the Mystery Guild, I got sent a remarkable procedural
in which the cop protagonists spent the first two thirds of the book finding
reasons not to investigate a series of murders. Most of the reasons involve
not caring about the deaths of people who are not white and middle-class
or ideally rich. Eventually someone was killed whose death could not be ignored
and they had to investigate, which they did very unhappily and with much
complaining.

There's also Cohen's Blood on the Moon, a (and possibly the only) sequel to
The Taking of Satcon Station (Baen and Cohen). Asher Bockhorn is involved in
the investigation of a mass murder on the moon but he gets distracted and
someone else has to solve the crime.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
John Halpenny
2021-05-21 16:19:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Woodward
whole genre is well populated with protagonists and antagonists (not to
mention outright villains) who don't give up easily.
Back when I read for the Mystery Guild, I got sent a remarkable procedural
in which the cop protagonists spent the first two thirds of the book finding
reasons not to investigate a series of murders. Most of the reasons involve
not caring about the deaths of people who are not white and middle-class
or ideally rich. Eventually someone was killed whose death could not be ignored
and they had to investigate, which they did very unhappily and with much
complaining.
There's also Cohen's Blood on the Moon, a (and possibly the only) sequel to
The Taking of Satcon Station (Baen and Cohen). Asher Bockhorn is involved in
the investigation of a mass murder on the moon but he gets distracted and
someone else has to solve the crime.
--
In most of the books I can think of, the lead character has some quality that makes him (or her) the lead character. How is this special in these five books?

John
a***@yahoo.com
2021-05-22 20:55:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-up-easily/
I predict that the next article will be "Five SFF Novels Featuring Women
Who Don't Give Up Easily".
"All the Birds in the Sky" by Charlie Jane Anders maybe?
Lynn McGuire
2021-05-22 21:10:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-up-easily/
I predict that the next article will be "Five SFF Novels Featuring Women
Who Don't Give Up Easily".
"All the Birds in the Sky" by Charlie Jane Anders maybe?
I was thinking Honor Harrington, Mercy Thompson, Anita Blake, and Jane
Yellowrock. And Nimue Alban.

Lynn
Andrew McDowell
2021-05-23 04:33:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-up-easily/
I predict that the next article will be "Five SFF Novels Featuring Women
Who Don't Give Up Easily".
"All the Birds in the Sky" by Charlie Jane Anders maybe?
I was thinking Honor Harrington, Mercy Thompson, Anita Blake, and Jane
Yellowrock. And Nimue Alban.
Lynn
Honor Harrington is excellent in many ways, including as a Naval officer. She _is_ involved in the introduction of new technologies - two stage missiles and technologies based around them - which has consequences played out over a longer term than a single novel. But I do not see her as demonstrating really exceptional persistence, which is why I thought of her but did not include her in my list. To some extent her training and experience fits her more for springing into decisive action at a moment's notice.
Hamish Laws
2021-05-29 11:39:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@yahoo.com
"All the Birds in the Sky" by Charlie Jane Anders maybe?
I was thinking Honor Harrington, Mercy Thompson, Anita Blake, and Jane
Yellowrock. And Nimue Alban.
Honor Harrington is excellent in many ways, including as a Naval officer. She _is_ involved in the introduction of new technologies - two stage missiles and technologies based around them - which has consequences played out over a longer term than a single novel. But I do not see her as demonstrating really exceptional persistence, which is why I thought of her but did not include her in my list. To some extent her training and experience fits her more for springing into decisive action at a moment's notice.
You might want to reread At Basilisk Station, there aren't that many people who would keep up a chase like that as their ship is being blasted apart
Andrew McDowell
2021-05-29 12:19:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hamish Laws
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@yahoo.com
"All the Birds in the Sky" by Charlie Jane Anders maybe?
I was thinking Honor Harrington, Mercy Thompson, Anita Blake, and Jane
Yellowrock. And Nimue Alban.
Honor Harrington is excellent in many ways, including as a Naval officer. She _is_ involved in the introduction of new technologies - two stage missiles and technologies based around them - which has consequences played out over a longer term than a single novel. But I do not see her as demonstrating really exceptional persistence, which is why I thought of her but did not include her in my list. To some extent her training and experience fits her more for springing into decisive action at a moment's notice.
You might want to reread At Basilisk Station, there aren't that many people who would keep up a chase like that as their ship is being blasted apart
There are a (very) small number of people like that, and it is the job of any really efficient navy to select for them and, if possible, produce them. One step in this direction would be to name your officer college for a self-sacrificing caption, like Edward Saganami. IRL a quick web search finds HMS Acasta, HMS Glowworm, HMS Jervis Bay, HMS Li Wo - on the latter I find "Gentlemen, the enemy outnumber us, the enemy outgun us, the enemy can outrun us. There is only one possible course of action. Full speed ahead and attack!"
David Johnston
2021-05-29 21:17:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-up-easily/
I predict that the next article will be "Five SFF Novels Featuring Women
Who Don't Give Up Easily".
"All the Birds in the Sky" by Charlie Jane Anders maybe?
I was thinking Honor Harrington, Mercy Thompson, Anita Blake, and Jane
Yellowrock. And Nimue Alban.
Lynn
Honor Harrington is excellent in many ways, including as a Naval officer. She _is_ involved in the introduction of new technologies - two stage missiles and technologies based around them - which has consequences played out over a longer term than a single novel. But I do not see her as demonstrating really exceptional persistence, which is why I thought of her but did not include her in my list. To some extent her training and experience fits her more for springing into decisive action at a moment's notice.
Honor Harrington had a downright disturbing tendency to win every fight
but at the cost of horrendous casualties and damage to her ship
Dimensional Traveler
2021-05-29 22:52:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-up-easily/
I predict that the next article will be "Five SFF Novels Featuring Women
Who Don't Give Up Easily".
"All the Birds in the Sky" by Charlie Jane Anders maybe?
I was thinking Honor Harrington, Mercy Thompson, Anita Blake, and Jane
Yellowrock. And Nimue Alban.
Lynn
Honor Harrington is excellent in many ways, including as a Naval
officer. She _is_ involved in the introduction of new technologies -
two stage missiles and technologies based around them - which has
consequences played out over a longer term than a single novel. But I
do not see her as demonstrating really exceptional persistence, which
is why I thought of her but did not include her in my list. To some
extent her training and experience fits her more for springing into
decisive action at a moment's notice.
Honor Harrington had a downright disturbing tendency to win every fight
but at the cost of horrendous casualties and damage to her ship
Well, later on that wasn't happening so much because she had
overwhelming force on her side.
--
Troll, troll, troll your post gently down the thread
Angrily, angrily, angrily, the net's a nut's scream.
J. Clarke
2021-05-29 23:27:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 29 May 2021 15:52:12 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by David Johnston
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-up-easily/
I predict that the next article will be "Five SFF Novels Featuring Women
Who Don't Give Up Easily".
"All the Birds in the Sky" by Charlie Jane Anders maybe?
I was thinking Honor Harrington, Mercy Thompson, Anita Blake, and Jane
Yellowrock. And Nimue Alban.
Lynn
Honor Harrington is excellent in many ways, including as a Naval
officer. She _is_ involved in the introduction of new technologies -
two stage missiles and technologies based around them - which has
consequences played out over a longer term than a single novel. But I
do not see her as demonstrating really exceptional persistence, which
is why I thought of her but did not include her in my list. To some
extent her training and experience fits her more for springing into
decisive action at a moment's notice.
Honor Harrington had a downright disturbing tendency to win every fight
but at the cost of horrendous casualties and damage to her ship
Well, later on that wasn't happening so much because she had
overwhelming force on her side.
Maybe my memory's faulty but I don't recall the overwhelming force
developing until the Sollies started their disastrous campaign to
teach the neobarbs a lesson, and by that time she had the ROH navy in
her pocket as well as the Empire and POG.

I do recall her heading for Haven to put paid to them at one point
when events transpired to make that unnecessary.
Andrew McDowell
2021-05-30 04:22:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 29 May 2021 15:52:12 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by David Johnston
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-up-easily/
I predict that the next article will be "Five SFF Novels Featuring Women
Who Don't Give Up Easily".
"All the Birds in the Sky" by Charlie Jane Anders maybe?
I was thinking Honor Harrington, Mercy Thompson, Anita Blake, and Jane
Yellowrock. And Nimue Alban.
Lynn
Honor Harrington is excellent in many ways, including as a Naval
officer. She _is_ involved in the introduction of new technologies -
two stage missiles and technologies based around them - which has
consequences played out over a longer term than a single novel. But I
do not see her as demonstrating really exceptional persistence, which
is why I thought of her but did not include her in my list. To some
extent her training and experience fits her more for springing into
decisive action at a moment's notice.
Honor Harrington had a downright disturbing tendency to win every fight
but at the cost of horrendous casualties and damage to her ship
Well, later on that wasn't happening so much because she had
overwhelming force on her side.
Maybe my memory's faulty but I don't recall the overwhelming force
developing until the Sollies started their disastrous campaign to
teach the neobarbs a lesson, and by that time she had the ROH navy in
her pocket as well as the Empire and POG.
I do recall her heading for Haven to put paid to them at one point
when events transpired to make that unnecessary.
A nice touch is that you can see the development of "overwhelming force" on a not unrealistic timescale during the series. From memory, a minor element of "On Basilisk Station" is that Harrington's ship is of an eccentric and impractical design - a not very good idea of the head of ship design, "Horrible" Hemphill. But in the start of "In Enemy Hands" we see Harrington defending the new class of ships just reaching completion - she has been involved in their design and in the design of the tactics they will allow, and these innovations will actually work. I didn't really take in all of the details, but I think this includes long range missiles, sensor systems to target those missiles, and what amounts to the re-invention of the aircraft carrier. From then on the RMN has a decisive technological lead (although the sheer size of the Solarian League is expected to allow them to catch up). Elsewhere in the series there is a revelation of a very long range strategic plan initiated by the Father of the current Queen and very much confirmed by her upon her accession.
Robert Woodward
2021-05-30 04:54:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 29 May 2021 15:52:12 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by David Johnston
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-
give-up-easily/
I predict that the next article will be "Five SFF Novels Featuring Women
Who Don't Give Up Easily".
"All the Birds in the Sky" by Charlie Jane Anders maybe?
I was thinking Honor Harrington, Mercy Thompson, Anita Blake, and Jane
Yellowrock. And Nimue Alban.
Lynn
Honor Harrington is excellent in many ways, including as a Naval
officer. She _is_ involved in the introduction of new technologies -
two stage missiles and technologies based around them - which has
consequences played out over a longer term than a single novel. But I
do not see her as demonstrating really exceptional persistence, which
is why I thought of her but did not include her in my list. To some
extent her training and experience fits her more for springing into
decisive action at a moment's notice.
Honor Harrington had a downright disturbing tendency to win every fight
but at the cost of horrendous casualties and damage to her ship
Well, later on that wasn't happening so much because she had
overwhelming force on her side.
Maybe my memory's faulty but I don't recall the overwhelming force
developing until the Sollies started their disastrous campaign to
teach the neobarbs a lesson, and by that time she had the ROH navy in
her pocket as well as the Empire and POG.
You are forgetting the end of _At All Costs_ where she, coming to the
rescue of the Manticore star system, smashed one Haven fleet with one
blow and then called for the other Haven fleet to surrender. That looked
like overwhelming force to me.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-------------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-30 02:43:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-up-easily/
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Lynn McGuire
I predict that the next article will be "Five SFF Novels Featuring Women
Who Don't Give Up Easily".
"All the Birds in the Sky" by Charlie Jane Anders maybe?
I was thinking Honor Harrington, Mercy Thompson, Anita Blake, and Jane
Yellowrock. And Nimue Alban.
Lynn
Honor Harrington is excellent in many ways, including as a Naval
officer. She _is_ involved in the introduction of new technologies - two
stage missiles and technologies based around them - which has
consequences played out over a longer term than a single novel. But I do
not see her as demonstrating really exceptional persistence, which is
why I thought of her but did not include her in my list. To some extent
her training and experience fits her more for springing into decisive
action at a moment's notice.
Honor Harrington had a downright disturbing tendency to win every fight
but at the cost of horrendous casualties and damage to her ship
Well, sure. That's what his readers crave. My son calls milsf,
particularly Weber, spaceship porn.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
J. Clarke
2021-05-30 08:03:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-up-easily/
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Lynn McGuire
I predict that the next article will be "Five SFF Novels Featuring Women
Who Don't Give Up Easily".
"All the Birds in the Sky" by Charlie Jane Anders maybe?
I was thinking Honor Harrington, Mercy Thompson, Anita Blake, and Jane
Yellowrock. And Nimue Alban.
Lynn
Honor Harrington is excellent in many ways, including as a Naval
officer. She _is_ involved in the introduction of new technologies - two
stage missiles and technologies based around them - which has
consequences played out over a longer term than a single novel. But I do
not see her as demonstrating really exceptional persistence, which is
why I thought of her but did not include her in my list. To some extent
her training and experience fits her more for springing into decisive
action at a moment's notice.
Honor Harrington had a downright disturbing tendency to win every fight
but at the cost of horrendous casualties and damage to her ship
Well, sure. That's what his readers crave. My son calls milsf,
particularly Weber, spaceship porn.
Note that Weber recognized this tendency and had an in-story nickname
for her, "The Salamander" because she emerges mostly intact from the
most horrendous conflagrations.
Quadibloc
2021-05-30 08:54:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Note that Weber recognized this tendency and had an in-story nickname
for her, "The Salamander" because she emerges mostly intact from the
most horrendous conflagrations.
And one of the earliest novels features a couple of ne'er-do-wells among
her crew that bully other crew members and try to escape hazardous
duty. They end up in the brig, which turns out to be one of the areas of
the ship destroyed in the battle later on. The're well acquainted with this
tendency of hers.

John Savard
Andrew McDowell
2021-05-30 10:04:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-up-easily/
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Lynn McGuire
I predict that the next article will be "Five SFF Novels Featuring Women
Who Don't Give Up Easily".
"All the Birds in the Sky" by Charlie Jane Anders maybe?
I was thinking Honor Harrington, Mercy Thompson, Anita Blake, and Jane
Yellowrock. And Nimue Alban.
Lynn
Honor Harrington is excellent in many ways, including as a Naval
officer. She _is_ involved in the introduction of new technologies - two
stage missiles and technologies based around them - which has
consequences played out over a longer term than a single novel. But I do
not see her as demonstrating really exceptional persistence, which is
why I thought of her but did not include her in my list. To some extent
her training and experience fits her more for springing into decisive
action at a moment's notice.
Honor Harrington had a downright disturbing tendency to win every fight
but at the cost of horrendous casualties and damage to her ship
Well, sure. That's what his readers crave. My son calls milsf,
particularly Weber, spaceship porn.
Note that Weber recognized this tendency and had an in-story nickname
for her, "The Salamander" because she emerges mostly intact from the
most horrendous conflagrations.
The term does not originate with Weber, and the focus is more on bravery - perhaps on being found at the hottest part of the fire - rather than on any guarantee of survival there. I am not sure that I have re-found the use I first encountered, but a scurrilous poem by Swift at http://www.online-literature.com/swift/poems-of-swift/13/ at least provides a definition (for the scurrility, see the full text at the link)

So men have got, from bird and brute,
Names that would best their nature suit.
The Lion, Eagle, Fox, and Boar,
Were heroes' titles heretofore,
Bestow'd as hi'roglyphics fit
To show their valour, strength, or wit:
For what is understood by fame,
Besides the getting of a name?
But, e'er since men invented guns,
A diff'rent way their fancy runs:
To paint a hero, we inquire
For something that will conquer fire.
Would you describe Turenne[1] or Trump?[2]
Think of a bucket or a pump.

Are these too low?--then find out grander,
Call my LORD CUTTS a Salamander.[3]
J. Clarke
2021-05-30 11:33:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 30 May 2021 03:04:42 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by J. Clarke
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-up-easily/
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Lynn McGuire
I predict that the next article will be "Five SFF Novels Featuring Women
Who Don't Give Up Easily".
"All the Birds in the Sky" by Charlie Jane Anders maybe?
I was thinking Honor Harrington, Mercy Thompson, Anita Blake, and Jane
Yellowrock. And Nimue Alban.
Lynn
Honor Harrington is excellent in many ways, including as a Naval
officer. She _is_ involved in the introduction of new technologies - two
stage missiles and technologies based around them - which has
consequences played out over a longer term than a single novel. But I do
not see her as demonstrating really exceptional persistence, which is
why I thought of her but did not include her in my list. To some extent
her training and experience fits her more for springing into decisive
action at a moment's notice.
Honor Harrington had a downright disturbing tendency to win every fight
but at the cost of horrendous casualties and damage to her ship
Well, sure. That's what his readers crave. My son calls milsf,
particularly Weber, spaceship porn.
Note that Weber recognized this tendency and had an in-story nickname
for her, "The Salamander" because she emerges mostly intact from the
most horrendous conflagrations.
The term does not originate with Weber, and the focus is more on bravery - perhaps on being found at the hottest part of the fire - rather than on any guarantee of survival there. I am not sure that I have re-found the use I first encountered, but a scurrilous poem by Swift at http://www.online-literature.com/swift/poems-of-swift/13/ at least provides a definition (for the scurrility, see the full text at the link)
So men have got, from bird and brute,
Names that would best their nature suit.
The Lion, Eagle, Fox, and Boar,
Were heroes' titles heretofore,
Bestow'd as hi'roglyphics fit
For what is understood by fame,
Besides the getting of a name?
But, e'er since men invented guns,
To paint a hero, we inquire
For something that will conquer fire.
Would you describe Turenne[1] or Trump?[2]
Think of a bucket or a pump.
Are these too low?--then find out grander,
Call my LORD CUTTS a Salamander.[3]
Swift wrote an Honor Harrington story?

Quadibloc
2021-05-30 08:51:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Honor Harrington had a downright disturbing tendency to win every fight
but at the cost of horrendous casualties and damage to her ship
Well, sure. That's what his readers crave. My son calls milsf,
particularly Weber, spaceship porn.
I wouldn't know about milsf in general, but certainly "spaceship porn"
is a significant element in Weber's Honor Harrington novels, with each
novel featuring at least one space battle described in extensive detail.

John Savard
Robert Woodward
2021-05-30 04:50:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-gi
ve-up-easily/
I predict that the next article will be "Five SFF Novels Featuring Women
Who Don't Give Up Easily".
"All the Birds in the Sky" by Charlie Jane Anders maybe?
I was thinking Honor Harrington, Mercy Thompson, Anita Blake, and Jane
Yellowrock. And Nimue Alban.
Lynn
Honor Harrington is excellent in many ways, including as a Naval officer.
She _is_ involved in the introduction of new technologies - two stage
missiles and technologies based around them - which has consequences played
out over a longer term than a single novel. But I do not see her as
demonstrating really exceptional persistence, which is why I thought of her
but did not include her in my list. To some extent her training and
experience fits her more for springing into decisive action at a moment's
notice.
Honor Harrington had a downright disturbing tendency to win every fight
but at the cost of horrendous casualties and damage to her ship
That was in the early books, where she had a bad habit of engaging ships
that were significantly more powerful than hers. In the later books, she
had the force advantage and the other guys were taking the horrendous
casualties. _Flag in Exile_ is a transition title, where her squadron
suffered significant losses, while the opposition was wiped out.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
J. Clarke
2021-05-23 12:44:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 22 May 2021 16:10:15 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-up-easily/
I predict that the next article will be "Five SFF Novels Featuring Women
Who Don't Give Up Easily".
"All the Birds in the Sky" by Charlie Jane Anders maybe?
I was thinking Honor Harrington, Mercy Thompson, Anita Blake, and Jane
Yellowrock. And Nimue Alban.
And just about any female character in Seanan McGuire's stories.
Princess Legolamb in the Emberverse stories does pretty well too, but
she's not on stage a lot.
Andrew McDowell
2021-05-21 19:21:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-up-easily/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Since I believe that the answer to discrimination in one direction is not discrimination in another direction but explicit non-discrimination, and since I am doubly culturaly primed to respect persistence, I will take the title at face value, and provide my own list of characters who don't give up easily.

Sam, the hero of Zelazny's "Lord of Light" - It is described that whereas an army is great in space but might appear for only a short period of time, Sam spread his one-man opposition to the colonial overloads over a long period of time, to achieve the same time integral of effect.

Nadrek of Palain VII - cowardly, self-deprecating, and patient and painstaking to a fault

Rider Haggard's "She" - waiting for many lifetimes for her love to be reincarnated

Robert the Bruce (OK - not a fictional hero, but there's half of my cultural priming - look up Bruce and the Spider, which probably is fiction)

Saruman - not in the Lord of the Rings that Tolkien wrote, but the book he said he did not write in the foreward - I have always been impressed by this other Saruman, going back over old records and over his early mistakes to find a way back to power - as Tolkein says:

The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of the legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved, and Barad-dûr would not have been destroyed but occupied. Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth. In that conflict both sides would have held hobbits in hatred and contempt: they would not long have survived even as slaves.
Robert Carnegie
2021-05-21 22:26:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-up-easily/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Since I believe that the answer to discrimination in one direction is not discrimination in another direction but explicit non-discrimination, and since I am doubly culturaly primed to respect persistence, I will take the title at face value, and provide my own list of characters who don't give up easily.
Sam, the hero of Zelazny's "Lord of Light" - It is described that whereas an army is great in space but might appear for only a short period of time, Sam spread his one-man opposition to the colonial overloads over a long period of time, to achieve the same time integral of effect.
Nadrek of Palain VII - cowardly, self-deprecating, and patient and painstaking to a fault
Rider Haggard's "She" - waiting for many lifetimes for her love to be reincarnated
Robert the Bruce (OK - not a fictional hero, but there's half of my cultural priming - look up Bruce and the Spider, which probably is fiction)
The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of the legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved, and Barad-dûr would not have been destroyed but occupied. Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth. In that conflict both sides would have held hobbits in hatred and contempt: they would not long have survived even as slaves.
Hmm... I think this is a version where the Ring
corresponds to the atom bomb, and becomes the
feared threat of the post-war world.

Referring to <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon#Testing_and_deployment_of_nuclear_weapons>
this Saruman is either Stalin, in Russia, or Sharkey,
based in the United Kingdom but owning other
parts of the world and intending to keep them.
Dimensional Traveler
2021-05-22 01:22:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Novels Featuring Men Who Don't Give Up Easily
https://www.tor.com/2021/05/20/five-sff-novels-featuring-men-who-dont-give-up-easily/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Since I believe that the answer to discrimination in one direction is not discrimination in another direction but explicit non-discrimination, and since I am doubly culturaly primed to respect persistence, I will take the title at face value, and provide my own list of characters who don't give up easily.
Sam, the hero of Zelazny's "Lord of Light" - It is described that whereas an army is great in space but might appear for only a short period of time, Sam spread his one-man opposition to the colonial overloads over a long period of time, to achieve the same time integral of effect.
Nadrek of Palain VII - cowardly, self-deprecating, and patient and painstaking to a fault
Rider Haggard's "She" - waiting for many lifetimes for her love to be reincarnated
Robert the Bruce (OK - not a fictional hero, but there's half of my cultural priming - look up Bruce and the Spider, which probably is fiction)
The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of the legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved, and Barad-dûr would not have been destroyed but occupied. Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth. In that conflict both sides would have held hobbits in hatred and contempt: they would not long have survived even as slaves.
Hmm... I think this is a version where the Ring
corresponds to the atom bomb, and becomes the
feared threat of the post-war world.
Referring to <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon#Testing_and_deployment_of_nuclear_weapons>
this Saruman is either Stalin, in Russia, or Sharkey,
based in the United Kingdom but owning other
parts of the world and intending to keep them.
Problem is that it wasn't the _second_ world war that inspired the War
of the Ring. It was the _first_.
--
Troll, troll, troll your post gently down the thread
Angrily, angrily, angrily, the net's a nut's scream.
Michael F. Stemper
2021-05-22 13:19:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Andrew McDowell
Saruman - not in the Lord of the Rings that Tolkien wrote, but the
book he said he did not write in the foreward - I have always been
impressed by this other Saruman, going back over old records and over
The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or
its conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of the
legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used
against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved, and
Barad-dûr would not have been destroyed but occupied. Saruman,
failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and
treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his
own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a
Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler
of Middle-earth. In that conflict both sides would have held hobbits
in hatred and contempt: they would not long have survived even as
slaves.
Hmm...  I think this is a version where the Ring
corresponds to the atom bomb, and becomes the
feared threat of the post-war world.
Referring to
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon#Testing_and_deployment_of_nuclear_weapons>
this Saruman is either Stalin, in Russia, or Sharkey,
based in the United Kingdom but owning other
parts of the world and intending to keep them.
Problem is that it wasn't the _second_ world war that inspired the War
of the Ring.  It was the _first_.
Yes, and the bit quoted by Mr. McDowell is expanding on that fact. In
evidence of this, let's have a little more context:

[...] Its sources are things are long before in mind, or in some
cases already written, and little or nothing in it was modified
by the war that began in 1939 or its sequels.

The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or
its conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of
legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used
against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved,
and Barad-dur would not have been destroyed but occupied. [...]

This excerpt from the "Foreward to the Second Edition" describes some
of the ways that the reader can tell that tLotR was not based on WWII.

Mr. McDowell specifically referred to "the book [Tolkien] said he did
not write", which would be the one influenced by WWII.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Isaiah 10:1-2
Loading...