Discussion:
Trojan Truth
(too old to reply)
C. E. Gee
2018-03-05 15:32:02 UTC
Permalink
Aphelion Webzine, in their Flash Fiction Department has published “Trojan Truth” by C.E. Gee.


Please click the below link.

The Greeks were not the heroes in the Trojan War, they were the villains.

Prepare to have your mind blown.

NAMASTE

Please GOTO http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/flash/2018/03/TrojanTruth.html
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-05 16:20:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by C. E. Gee
Aphelion Webzine, in their Flash Fiction Department has published
“Trojan Truth” by C.E. Gee.
Please click the below link.
The Greeks were not the heroes in the Trojan War, they were the villains.
Cf. Virgil; also Dante. Also, see this take on the _Aeneid_:


--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Robert Woodward
2018-03-05 17:45:10 UTC
Permalink
Aphelion Webzine, in their Flash Fiction Department has published “Trojan
Truth” by C.E. Gee.
Advertising? Tsk,tsk.

Anyway, it is obvious that the Gods were the villains. They recruited
their teams and were busy rooting for them.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
David Johnston
2018-03-05 18:52:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by C. E. Gee
Aphelion Webzine, in their Flash Fiction Department has published “Trojan Truth” by C.E. Gee.
Please click the below link.
The Greeks were not the heroes in the Trojan War, they were the villains.
I file that under "Well duh!"
William Hyde
2018-03-05 21:16:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by C. E. Gee
Aphelion Webzine, in their Flash Fiction Department has published “Trojan Truth” by C.E. Gee.
Please click the below link.
The Greeks were not the heroes in the Trojan War, they were the villains.
Prepare to have your mind blown.
NAMASTE
Please GOTO http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/flash/2018/03/TrojanTruth.html
That is *so* 415 BC.

William Hyde
Gary R. Schmidt
2018-03-06 14:10:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by C. E. Gee
Aphelion Webzine, in their Flash Fiction Department has published “Trojan Truth” by C.E. Gee.
Please click the below link.
The Greeks were not the heroes in the Trojan War, they were the villains.
Prepare to have your mind blown.
NAMASTE
Please GOTO http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/flash/2018/03/TrojanTruth.html
That is *so* 415 BC.
Snerk!

Too many decades reading Usenet continues to protect my screens,
keyboards, mice, passing pets. children, and so on, from being drowned
in tea. :-)

Cheers,
Gary B-)
--
When men talk to their friends, they insult each other.
They don't really mean it.
When women talk to their friends, they compliment each other.
They don't mean it either.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-06 14:34:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by C. E. Gee
Post by William Hyde
Post by C. E. Gee
Aphelion Webzine, in their Flash Fiction Department has published
“Trojan Truth” by C.E. Gee.
Post by William Hyde
Post by C. E. Gee
Please click the below link.
The Greeks were not the heroes in the Trojan War, they were the villains.
Prepare to have your mind blown.
NAMASTE
Please GOTO http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/flash/2018/03/TrojanTruth.html
That is *so* 415 BC.
Snerk!
Too many decades reading Usenet continues to protect my screens,
keyboards, mice, passing pets. children, and so on, from being drowned
in tea. :-)
I read this off to Hal, who said, "Somebody's written the Trojan
War from the Trojan viewpoint. It's been done before."

Which it has. The question is, has it been done well this time?

Somehow I doubt it.

I refer you to _Tiger at the Gates_, a translation by Christopher
Fry of Jean Anouilh's _La guerre de Troie n'aura pas lieu_, which
translates as "The Trojan War won't happen."

And there's always the _Aeneid._
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
D B Davis
2018-03-06 15:26:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by C. E. Gee
Aphelion Webzine, in their Flash Fiction Department has published
"Trojan Truth" by C.E. Gee.
Please click the below link.
The Greeks were not the heroes in the Trojan War, they were the villains.
Prepare to have your mind blown.
NAMASTE
Please GOTO http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/flash/2018/03/TrojanTruth.html
Congratulations on getting published. Not a bad little story.
That said, few things embody pure evil more than Agamemnon. His
blind lust for power drives him to coolly butcher his own young daughter
for the sake of his cause.
Few things embody foresight's Achilles' heal more than Cassandra.
She sees but is not believed.
Do you suppose that it's possible to convey all of that character
development in a short story? Or, does it take a longer story?

Thank you,

--
Don
a425couple
2018-03-06 19:28:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by C. E. Gee
Aphelion Webzine, in their Flash Fiction Department has
published “Trojan Truth” by C.E. Gee. --
The Greeks were not the heroes in the Trojan War,
they were the villains.
Oh Yeah!
Kidnappers, rapists & losers.
Well, what I'd like to know, is why the name 'Troy'
is popularly used (for towns, colleges etc.)
and why the nick name 'trojans' are often used for
sports teams?

They lost.
And what did they do to improve the world?
What good ideals did they represent?

What did they ever do for USC football?

How come we have no teams named for the Carthaginians?
How about the Visgoths?
Athenieans? Persians? Goths?
Huns? Franks? Slavs? Saxons?
Hittites?


(Yes, yes, I do realize Vikings and Vandals are
properly remembered.)
Carl Fink
2018-03-06 20:23:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by a425couple
Oh Yeah!
Kidnappers, rapists & losers.
Well, what I'd like to know, is why the name 'Troy'
is popularly used (for towns, colleges etc.)
and why the nick name 'trojans' are often used for
sports teams?
Because of the legend that a Trojan family founded Rome, I'm guessing.
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!
Robert Carnegie
2018-03-06 21:19:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by a425couple
Oh Yeah!
Kidnappers, rapists & losers.
Well, what I'd like to know, is why the name 'Troy'
is popularly used (for towns, colleges etc.)
and why the nick name 'trojans' are often used for
sports teams?
Because of the legend that a Trojan family founded Rome,
I'm guessing.
Consolidated information at Dictionary.com says that
in the 17th century it meant someone you get drunk with,
but later it meant "a person who shows pluck, determination,
or energy: 'to work like a Trojan'." As opposed to
drinking like one? To me this looks random, but I don't know
if it is.
David Johnston
2018-03-06 21:32:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Carl Fink
Post by a425couple
Oh Yeah!
Kidnappers, rapists & losers.
Well, what I'd like to know, is why the name 'Troy'
is popularly used (for towns, colleges etc.)
and why the nick name 'trojans' are often used for
sports teams?
Because of the legend that a Trojan family founded Rome,
I'm guessing.
Consolidated information at Dictionary.com says that
in the 17th century it meant someone you get drunk with,
but later it meant "a person who shows pluck, determination,
or energy: 'to work like a Trojan'." As opposed to
drinking like one? To me this looks random, but I don't know
if it is.
Prior to the actual discovery of Troy, the Trojans were only known as
the believed-to-be fictional antagonists in the Iliad and the
protagonists of the Aeneid...who managed to endure a ten year long seige
against the Greeks, who are depicted as superhuman warriors. A "Trojan"
was a man who might not always win, but would always stand his ground
against any foe. To "drink like a Trojan" was to match the other guy
drink for drink and remain standing until the end.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-03-06 22:27:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Carl Fink
Post by a425couple
Oh Yeah!
Kidnappers, rapists & losers.
Well, what I'd like to know, is why the name 'Troy'
is popularly used (for towns, colleges etc.)
and why the nick name 'trojans' are often used for
sports teams?
Because of the legend that a Trojan family founded Rome,
I'm guessing.
Consolidated information at Dictionary.com says that
in the 17th century it meant someone you get drunk with,
but later it meant "a person who shows pluck, determination,
or energy: 'to work like a Trojan'." As opposed to
drinking like one? To me this looks random, but I don't know
if it is.
Prior to the actual discovery of Troy, the Trojans were only known as
the believed-to-be fictional antagonists in the Iliad and the
protagonists of the Aeneid...who managed to endure a ten year long seige
against the Greeks, who are depicted as superhuman warriors. A "Trojan"
was a man who might not always win, but would always stand his ground
against any foe. To "drink like a Trojan" was to match the other guy
drink for drink and remain standing until the end.
Remain standing to the end. So nobody has made the obvious Trojan joke
yet in this thread..
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Titus G
2018-03-07 02:12:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Carl Fink
Post by a425couple
Oh Yeah!
Kidnappers, rapists & losers.
Well, what I'd like to know, is why the name 'Troy'
is popularly used (for towns, colleges etc.)
and why the nick name 'trojans' are often used for
sports teams?
Because of the legend that a Trojan family founded Rome,
I'm guessing.
Consolidated information at Dictionary.com says that
in the 17th century it meant someone you get drunk with,
but later it meant "a person who shows pluck, determination,
or energy: 'to work like a Trojan'." As opposed to
drinking like one? To me this looks random, but I don't know
if it is.
Prior to the actual discovery of Troy, the Trojans were only known as
the believed-to-be fictional antagonists in the Iliad and the
protagonists of the Aeneid...who managed to endure a ten year long seige
against the Greeks, who are depicted as superhuman warriors. A "Trojan"
was a man who might not always win, but would always stand his ground
against any foe. To "drink like a Trojan" was to match the other guy
drink for drink and remain standing until the end.
Remain standing to the end. So nobody has made the obvious Trojan joke
yet in this thread..
Why aren't there sports teams named Viagrans?
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-06 21:04:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by a425couple
Post by C. E. Gee
Aphelion Webzine, in their Flash Fiction Department has
published “Trojan Truth” by C.E. Gee. --
The Greeks were not the heroes in the Trojan War,
they were the villains.
Oh Yeah!
Kidnappers, rapists & losers.
Well, what I'd like to know, is why the name 'Troy'
is popularly used (for towns, colleges etc.)
Because the Romans (and later the Italians) considered themselves
to be the descendants of the Trojans (cf. _Aeneid_, _Commedia_),
and therefore those must have been the good guys.
Post by a425couple
and why the nick name 'trojans' are often used for
sports teams?
Haven't a clue.
Post by a425couple
They lost.
And what did they do to improve the world?
What good ideals did they represent?
They founded Rome. This, to Romans (and later to Italians,
particularly once Rome became the center of Western
Christianity), was Very Important.
Post by a425couple
What did they ever do for USC football?
I neither know nor care.
Post by a425couple
How come we have no teams named for the Carthaginians?
How about the Visgoths?
Athenieans? Persians? Goths?
Huns? Franks? Slavs? Saxons?
Hittites?
You want to put together a football team and name it after any of
those guys, be my guest.

There is an early-music group called the Virtuosi Saxoniae, a
subset of the Dresden Staatskapelle. If that's any help.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
David Johnston
2018-03-06 21:43:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by a425couple
Post by C. E. Gee
Aphelion Webzine, in their Flash Fiction Department has
published “Trojan Truth” by C.E. Gee.  --
The Greeks were not the heroes in the Trojan War,
they were the villains.
Oh Yeah!
Kidnappers, rapists & losers.
Well, what I'd like to know, is why the name 'Troy'
is popularly used (for towns, colleges etc.)
and why the nick name 'trojans' are often used for
sports teams?
They lost.
Everybody loses if you give them long enough. In fact, the Greek
kingdoms were in the process of collapsing when they really invaded
Anatolia and sacked the real Troy.
Post by a425couple
And what did they do to improve the world?
We don't know because we have almost no intelligibly recorded history
which survives from prior to the Bronze Age Collapse. The loss and
reinvention of literacy subsequent to end of Bronze Age civilization
have left us only able to know Bronze Age Troy through archaeological
excavation and the Iliad, which is historical fiction based on oral
tradition. They were however a major mercantile city on a key trade
route between Greece and Asia and so would have been a major factor in
the development of early Greek civilization.
Post by a425couple
What good ideals did they represent?
Steadfastness is the virtue that the Trojans were remembered for.
Moriarty
2018-03-06 22:33:10 UTC
Permalink
On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 8:43:53 AM UTC+11, David Johnston wrote:

<snip>
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
What good ideals did they represent?
Steadfastness is the virtue that the Trojans were remembered for.
ObSF: From Red Dwarf, "The Inquisitor"

LISTER: So all of a sudden they wake up one mornin' and the Greeks have gone. And there outside the city walls they've left this gift; this tribute to their valiant foes: a huge wooden horse, just large enough to happily contain 500 Greeks in full battle dress and still leave adequate room for toilet facilities? Are you telling me not one Trojan goes, "Hang on a minute, that's a bit of a funny prezzy. What's wrong with a couple hundred pairs of socks and some aftershave?" No, they don't -- they just wheel it in and all decide to go for an early night! People that stupid deserve to be kerpowed, zapped and kersplatted in their beds! You know what the big joke is? From this particular phase in history we derive the phrase, "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts," when it would be much more logical to derive the phrase, "Beware of Trojans, they're complete smegheads!"

-Moriarty
Kevrob
2018-03-06 22:48:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
What good ideals did they represent?
Steadfastness is the virtue that the Trojans were remembered for.
ObSF: From Red Dwarf, "The Inquisitor"
LISTER: So all of a sudden they wake up one mornin' and the Greeks have gone. And there outside the city walls they've left this gift; this tribute to their valiant foes: a huge wooden horse, just large enough to happily contain 500 Greeks in full battle dress and still leave adequate room for toilet facilities? Are you telling me not one Trojan goes, "Hang on a minute, that's a bit of a funny prezzy. What's wrong with a couple hundred pairs of socks and some aftershave?" No, they don't -- they just wheel it in and all decide to go for an early night! People that stupid deserve to be kerpowed, zapped and kersplatted in their beds! You know what the big joke is? From this particular phase in history we derive the phrase, "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts," when it would be much more logical to derive the phrase, "Beware of Trojans, they're complete smegheads!"
-Moriarty
Only Northern Europeans would think it OK to wear socks
with sandals. That's how we spot the German tourists. :)

(Oohhh, Yorkshiremen, too, it would seem.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socks_and_sandals

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-06 23:49:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moriarty
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
What good ideals did they represent?
Steadfastness is the virtue that the Trojans were remembered for.
ObSF: From Red Dwarf, "The Inquisitor"
LISTER: So all of a sudden they wake up one mornin' and the Greeks
have gone. And there outside the city walls they've left this gift; this
tribute to their valiant foes: a huge wooden horse, just large enough to
happily contain 500 Greeks in full battle dress and still leave adequate
room for toilet facilities? Are you telling me not one Trojan goes,
"Hang on a minute, that's a bit of a funny prezzy. What's wrong with a
couple hundred pairs of socks and some aftershave?" No, they don't --
they just wheel it in and all decide to go for an early night! People
that stupid deserve to be kerpowed, zapped and kersplatted in their
beds! You know what the big joke is? From this particular phase in
history we derive the phrase, "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts," when it
would be much more logical to derive the phrase, "Beware of Trojans,
they're complete smegheads!"
Post by Moriarty
-Moriarty
Only Northern Europeans would think it OK to wear socks
with sandals. That's how we spot the German tourists. :)
Socks and sandals are standard wear in Berkeley and environs,
because of the way the temperature changes during an average day.
You get up in the morning and it's chilly, maybe 60 Fahrenheit,
so you want some insulation on your feet. But you know that by
mid-afternoon it's going to be 75 or so, and you don't want to
carry an extra pair of shoes around. So you put socks on with
your sandals, and when it gets too warm for socks, take them off.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Kevrob
2018-03-07 01:16:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Moriarty
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
What good ideals did they represent?
Steadfastness is the virtue that the Trojans were remembered for.
ObSF: From Red Dwarf, "The Inquisitor"
LISTER: So all of a sudden they wake up one mornin' and the Greeks
have gone. And there outside the city walls they've left this gift; this
tribute to their valiant foes: a huge wooden horse, just large enough to
happily contain 500 Greeks in full battle dress and still leave adequate
room for toilet facilities? Are you telling me not one Trojan goes,
"Hang on a minute, that's a bit of a funny prezzy. What's wrong with a
couple hundred pairs of socks and some aftershave?" No, they don't --
they just wheel it in and all decide to go for an early night! People
that stupid deserve to be kerpowed, zapped and kersplatted in their
beds! You know what the big joke is? From this particular phase in
history we derive the phrase, "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts," when it
would be much more logical to derive the phrase, "Beware of Trojans,
they're complete smegheads!"
Post by Moriarty
-Moriarty
Only Northern Europeans would think it OK to wear socks
with sandals. That's how we spot the German tourists. :)
Socks and sandals are standard wear in Berkeley and environs,
because of the way the temperature changes during an average day.
You get up in the morning and it's chilly, maybe 60 Fahrenheit,
so you want some insulation on your feet. But you know that by
mid-afternoon it's going to be 75 or so, and you don't want to
carry an extra pair of shoes around. So you put socks on with
your sandals, and when it gets too warm for socks, take them off.
-
Well, Bay Area Californians count as "Crazy Foreigners" in the
RoA (Rest of America.) As a Native Noo Yawka, I prbably count
as one, too, but I spent an extended sojourn in Flyover Country,
where winter is Real Winter and summer is too damned short, but
sometime hoternhell.

As I say this, a nor'easter is aimed at my workplace and
my home in Connecticut, which is still within the NY metro
area, by some measures.

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-07 14:31:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Only Northern Europeans would think it OK to wear socks
with sandals. That's how we spot the German tourists. :)
Socks and sandals are standard wear in Berkeley and environs,
because of the way the temperature changes during an average day.
You get up in the morning and it's chilly, maybe 60 Fahrenheit,
so you want some insulation on your feet. But you know that by
mid-afternoon it's going to be 75 or so, and you don't want to
carry an extra pair of shoes around. So you put socks on with
your sandals, and when it gets too warm for socks, take them off.
Well, Bay Area Californians count as "Crazy Foreigners" in the
RoA (Rest of America.) As a Native Noo Yawka, I prbably count
as one, too, but I spent an extended sojourn in Flyover Country,
where winter is Real Winter and summer is too damned short, but
sometime hoternhell.
There was a newspaper in the sixties called the Berkeley Barb,
which once ran an article on, IIRC, the Free Clinic. Someone
there was quoted as follows: "America is the refuge for weirdness
from Europe. California is the refuge for weirdness from the
rest of America. The Bay Area is the refuge for weirdness from
the rest of Caifornia, and Berkeley is the refuge for weirdness
from the rest of the Bay Area. If you're too weird for Berkeley,
you may be too weird for this planet."
Post by Kevrob
As I say this, a nor'easter is aimed at my workplace and
my home in Connecticut, which is still within the NY metro
area, by some measures.
The way Berkeley may stand for the rest of the Bay Area, by some
measures.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Michael F. Stemper
2018-03-08 00:05:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Well, Bay Area Californians count as "Crazy Foreigners" in the
RoA (Rest of America.) As a Native Noo Yawka, I prbably count
as one, too, but I spent an extended sojourn in Flyover Country,
where winter is Real Winter and summer is too damned short, but
sometime hoternhell.
There was a newspaper in the sixties called the Berkeley Barb,
which once ran an article on, IIRC, the Free Clinic. Someone
there was quoted as follows: "America is the refuge for weirdness
from Europe. California is the refuge for weirdness from the
rest of America. The Bay Area is the refuge for weirdness from
the rest of Caifornia, and Berkeley is the refuge for weirdness
from the rest of the Bay Area. If you're too weird for Berkeley,
you may be too weird for this planet."
Which sounds just like the old saw about "To the rest of the world,
a Yankee is somebody from the US. In the US, it's somebody from
north of the Mason-Dixon line." Und so weiter. I believe that you've
actually quoted the whole thing here on several occasions.

And I just now realized that the opening of '"-- And He Built a Crooked
House --"' follows this pattern as well.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Deuteronomy 10:18-19
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-08 00:34:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Well, Bay Area Californians count as "Crazy Foreigners" in the
RoA (Rest of America.) As a Native Noo Yawka, I prbably count
as one, too, but I spent an extended sojourn in Flyover Country,
where winter is Real Winter and summer is too damned short, but
sometime hoternhell.
There was a newspaper in the sixties called the Berkeley Barb,
which once ran an article on, IIRC, the Free Clinic. Someone
there was quoted as follows: "America is the refuge for weirdness
from Europe. California is the refuge for weirdness from the
rest of America. The Bay Area is the refuge for weirdness from
the rest of Caifornia, and Berkeley is the refuge for weirdness
from the rest of the Bay Area. If you're too weird for Berkeley,
you may be too weird for this planet."
Which sounds just like the old saw about "To the rest of the world,
a Yankee is somebody from the US. In the US, it's somebody from
north of the Mason-Dixon line." Und so weiter. I believe that you've
actually quoted the whole thing here on several occasions.
And I just now realized that the opening of '"-- And He Built a Crooked
House --"' follows this pattern as well.
/search, read

Yup.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Greg Goss
2018-03-10 10:48:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
There was a newspaper in the sixties called the Berkeley Barb,
which once ran an article on, IIRC, the Free Clinic. Someone
there was quoted as follows: "America is the refuge for weirdness
from Europe. California is the refuge for weirdness from the
rest of America. The Bay Area is the refuge for weirdness from
the rest of Caifornia, and Berkeley is the refuge for weirdness
from the rest of the Bay Area. If you're too weird for Berkeley,
you may be too weird for this planet."
That sounds like it's half stolen from the early Heinlein short And He
Built A Crooked House.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Peter Trei
2018-03-11 00:06:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
There was a newspaper in the sixties called the Berkeley Barb,
which once ran an article on, IIRC, the Free Clinic. Someone
there was quoted as follows: "America is the refuge for weirdness
from Europe. California is the refuge for weirdness from the
rest of America. The Bay Area is the refuge for weirdness from
the rest of Caifornia, and Berkeley is the refuge for weirdness
from the rest of the Bay Area. If you're too weird for Berkeley,
you may be too weird for this planet."
That sounds like it's half stolen from the early Heinlein short And He
Built A Crooked House.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
I don’t know the origin, but I’ve heard enough variations to suspect it was a common bon motte at the time.

Pt
D B Davis
2018-03-11 01:02:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
There was a newspaper in the sixties called the Berkeley Barb,
which once ran an article on, IIRC, the Free Clinic. Someone
there was quoted as follows: "America is the refuge for weirdness
from Europe. California is the refuge for weirdness from the
rest of America. The Bay Area is the refuge for weirdness from
the rest of Caifornia, and Berkeley is the refuge for weirdness
from the rest of the Bay Area. If you're too weird for Berkeley,
you may be too weird for this planet."
That sounds like it's half stolen from the early Heinlein short And He
Built A Crooked House.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
I don't know the origin, but I've heard enough variations to suspect it
was a common bon motte at the time.
At what time? The early 1940s when "Crooked House" was published, the
1960s when the Berkeley Barb came out, or all along?
My hunch is that you're correct. It seems too clever by half for RAH
to dream it up all by his lonesome. My own google-fu isn't up to task,
so my research ends with date markers.

Thank you,

--
Don
Robert Carnegie
2018-03-11 12:18:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
There was a newspaper in the sixties called the Berkeley Barb,
which once ran an article on, IIRC, the Free Clinic. Someone
there was quoted as follows: "America is the refuge for weirdness
from Europe. California is the refuge for weirdness from the
rest of America. The Bay Area is the refuge for weirdness from
the rest of Caifornia, and Berkeley is the refuge for weirdness
from the rest of the Bay Area. If you're too weird for Berkeley,
you may be too weird for this planet."
That sounds like it's half stolen from the early Heinlein short And He
Built A Crooked House.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
I don't know the origin, but I've heard enough variations to suspect it
was a common bon motte at the time.
At what time? The early 1940s when "Crooked House" was published, the
1960s when the Berkeley Barb came out, or all along?
My hunch is that you're correct. It seems too clever by half for RAH
to dream it up all by his lonesome. My own google-fu isn't up to task,
so my research ends with date markers.
That's rather mean on Heinlein. Surely he had /some/ original ideas.
D B Davis
2018-03-11 16:22:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
There was a newspaper in the sixties called the Berkeley Barb,
which once ran an article on, IIRC, the Free Clinic. Someone
there was quoted as follows: "America is the refuge for weirdness
from Europe. California is the refuge for weirdness from the
rest of America. The Bay Area is the refuge for weirdness from
the rest of Caifornia, and Berkeley is the refuge for weirdness
from the rest of the Bay Area. If you're too weird for Berkeley,
you may be too weird for this planet."
That sounds like it's half stolen from the early Heinlein short And He
Built A Crooked House.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
I don't know the origin, but I've heard enough variations to suspect it
was a common bon motte at the time.
At what time? The early 1940s when "Crooked House" was published, the
1960s when the Berkeley Barb came out, or all along?
My hunch is that you're correct. It seems too clever by half for RAH
to dream it up all by his lonesome. My own google-fu isn't up to task,
so my research ends with date markers.
That's rather mean on Heinlein. Surely he had /some/ original ideas.
That's the problem when you get stingy with words out of pure laziness.
Meager words can come across as mean.
RAH is a Titan of SF. He's a genius. He single-handedly created more
than half the SF tropes out there. OK, truth-be-known, it seems to /me/
personally that he created /a ton/ of SF tropes.
It's just that bon mottes tend to originate with someone previously
unknown to me. Or, at least that's how it feels to me at the time. It
always feels like a smarter person would already know about the author
of a bon motte that's new to me. OK, enough ouroboros philosophizing.
You can go crazy if you do that too long...
It turns that the Yankee aphorism posted by Dorothy elsewhere in
this thread originates with E B White. (Yet another guy previously
unheard of by me that a smarter guy would already know about...) White
lived from 1899 to 1985. So, the only question that remains is, who did
published their particular aphorism first? Was it White or was it
Heinlein?
Whoops. My google-fu just ran out again. OK, actually it's
duckduckgo-fu.

Thank you,

--
Don
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-11 04:49:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
There was a newspaper in the sixties called the Berkeley Barb,
which once ran an article on, IIRC, the Free Clinic. Someone
there was quoted as follows: "America is the refuge for weirdness
from Europe. California is the refuge for weirdness from the
rest of America. The Bay Area is the refuge for weirdness from
the rest of Caifornia, and Berkeley is the refuge for weirdness
from the rest of the Bay Area. If you're too weird for Berkeley,
you may be too weird for this planet."
That sounds like it's half stolen from the early Heinlein short And He
Built A Crooked House.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
I don’t know the origin, but I’ve heard enough variations to suspect
it was a common bon motte at the time.
It's a common trope. Heinlein was talking about a particular
district of Los Angeles. And there's the other one about what is
a Yankee.







If you're not interested, hit 'n' now.








To Europeans, a Yankee is an American. To Americans, a Yankee is
a Northerner. To Northern Americans, a Yankee is a New
Englander. To New Englanders, a Yankee is a Vermonter. And in
Vermont, a Yankee is somebody who eats pie for breakfast.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Cryptoengineer
2018-03-11 17:17:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
There was a newspaper in the sixties called the Berkeley Barb,
which once ran an article on, IIRC, the Free Clinic. Someone there
was quoted as follows: "America is the refuge for weirdness from
Europe. California is the refuge for weirdness from the rest of
America. The Bay Area is the refuge for weirdness from the rest of
Caifornia, and Berkeley is the refuge for weirdness from the rest
of the Bay Area. If you're too weird for Berkeley, you may be too
weird for this planet."
That sounds like it's half stolen from the early Heinlein short And
He Built A Crooked House.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
I don’t know the origin, but I’ve heard enough variations to
suspect it was a common bon motte at the time.
It's a common trope. Heinlein was talking about a particular
district of Los Angeles. And there's the other one about what is
a Yankee.
If you're not interested, hit 'n' now.
To Europeans, a Yankee is an American. To Americans, a Yankee is
a Northerner. To Northern Americans, a Yankee is a New
Englander. To New Englanders, a Yankee is a Vermonter. And in
Vermont, a Yankee is somebody who eats pie for breakfast.
Specificly, cold apple pie with cheese.

pt
Kevrob
2018-03-11 21:11:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
To Europeans, a Yankee is an American. To Americans, a Yankee is
a Northerner. To Northern Americans, a Yankee is a New
Englander. To New Englanders, a Yankee is a Vermonter. And in
Vermont, a Yankee is somebody who eats pie for breakfast.
Specificly, cold apple pie with cheese.
Don't forget the "redneck's" New England cousin, the "Swamp Yankee."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swamp_yankee

Kevin R
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-03-11 21:13:50 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 11 Mar 2018 12:17:52 -0500, Cryptoengineer
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
There was a newspaper in the sixties called the Berkeley Barb,
which once ran an article on, IIRC, the Free Clinic. Someone there
was quoted as follows: "America is the refuge for weirdness from
Europe. California is the refuge for weirdness from the rest of
America. The Bay Area is the refuge for weirdness from the rest of
Caifornia, and Berkeley is the refuge for weirdness from the rest
of the Bay Area. If you're too weird for Berkeley, you may be too
weird for this planet."
That sounds like it's half stolen from the early Heinlein short And
He Built A Crooked House.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
I don’t know the origin, but I’ve heard enough variations to
suspect it was a common bon motte at the time.
It's a common trope. Heinlein was talking about a particular
district of Los Angeles. And there's the other one about what is
a Yankee.
If you're not interested, hit 'n' now.
To Europeans, a Yankee is an American. To Americans, a Yankee is
a Northerner. To Northern Americans, a Yankee is a New
Englander. To New Englanders, a Yankee is a Vermonter. And in
Vermont, a Yankee is somebody who eats pie for breakfast.
Specificly, cold apple pie with cheese.
What? Are you claiming my mother wasn't a Yankee?

(She liked rhubarb pie for breakfast.)
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
Kevrob
2018-03-12 18:58:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Sun, 11 Mar 2018 12:17:52 -0500, Cryptoengineer
Post by Cryptoengineer
Specificly, cold apple pie with cheese.
What? Are you claiming my mother wasn't a Yankee?
(She liked rhubarb pie for breakfast.)
Different rules in MA than in VT?

One of my Dad's favorites was strawberry-rhubarb pie.
Just enough sweetness from the strawberries.

Kevin R

Bebop-a-rebop !
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-03-12 19:30:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Sun, 11 Mar 2018 12:17:52 -0500, Cryptoengineer
Post by Cryptoengineer
Specificly, cold apple pie with cheese.
What? Are you claiming my mother wasn't a Yankee?
(She liked rhubarb pie for breakfast.)
Different rules in MA than in VT?
Maybe that's it.
Post by Kevrob
One of my Dad's favorites was strawberry-rhubarb pie.
Just enough sweetness from the strawberries.
Yeah, my mother liked strawberry-rhubarb, but dropped the strawberries
when she had blood sugar issues.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-12 20:38:07 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 11:58:48 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 5:13:50 PM UTC-4, Lawrence
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Sun, 11 Mar 2018 12:17:52 -0500, Cryptoengineer
Post by Cryptoengineer
Specificly, cold apple pie with cheese.
What? Are you claiming my mother wasn't a Yankee?
(She liked rhubarb pie for breakfast.)
Different rules in MA than in VT?
Maybe that's it.
One of my Dad's favorites was strawberry-rhubarb pie.
Just enough sweetness from the strawberries.
Yeah, my mother liked strawberry-rhubarb, but dropped the
strawberries when she had blood sugar issues.
Strawberry-rhubarb is for sissies who didn't have bhubarb growing in
their front yard as a kid. (I love rhubard pie, but you never, ever,
ever see it in restaurants in southern California.)
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-12 21:17:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 11:58:48 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 5:13:50 PM UTC-4, Lawrence
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Sun, 11 Mar 2018 12:17:52 -0500, Cryptoengineer
Post by Cryptoengineer
Specificly, cold apple pie with cheese.
What? Are you claiming my mother wasn't a Yankee?
(She liked rhubarb pie for breakfast.)
Different rules in MA than in VT?
Maybe that's it.
One of my Dad's favorites was strawberry-rhubarb pie.
Just enough sweetness from the strawberries.
Yeah, my mother liked strawberry-rhubarb, but dropped the
strawberries when she had blood sugar issues.
Strawberry-rhubarb is for sissies who didn't have bhubarb growing in
their front yard as a kid. (I love rhubard pie, but you never, ever,
ever see it in restaurants in southern California.)
I have, however, seen it in cafeterias in northern California.
Occasionally. Not that I could eat it now if I could find it.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Kevrob
2018-03-12 22:15:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Strawberry-rhubarb is for sissies who didn't have bhubarb growing in
their front yard as a kid. (I love rhubard pie, but you never, ever,
ever see it in restaurants in southern California.)
I have, however, seen it in cafeterias in northern California.
Occasionally. Not that I could eat it now if I could find it.
I'd like to see the smear on the pavement that would be left'
of anyone who angered my late father by calling him a "sissy."

He would have probably let it slide, because he was secure in his
manhood, and spending a night in jail isn't practical when you have
9 mouths to feed.

Kevin R
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-12 22:29:07 UTC
Permalink
On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 5:30:04 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Strawberry-rhubarb is for sissies who didn't have bhubarb
growing in their front yard as a kid. (I love rhubard pie, but
you never, ever, ever see it in restaurants in southern
California.)
I have, however, seen it in cafeterias in northern California.
Occasionally. Not that I could eat it now if I could find it.
I'd like to see the smear on the pavement that would be left'
of anyone who angered my late father by calling him a "sissy."
He would have probably let it slide, because he was secure in
his manhood, and spending a night in jail isn't practical when
you have 9 mouths to feed.
I suspect he might end up eating actual rhubard pie to prove his
manhood. I'd join him. And we'd laugh and laugh and laugh.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-13 00:21:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Strawberry-rhubarb is for sissies who didn't have bhubarb growing in
their front yard as a kid. (I love rhubard pie, but you never, ever,
ever see it in restaurants in southern California.)
I have, however, seen it in cafeterias in northern California.
Occasionally. Not that I could eat it now if I could find it.
I'd like to see the smear on the pavement that would be left'
of anyone who angered my late father by calling him a "sissy."
He would have probably let it slide, because he was secure in his
manhood, and spending a night in jail isn't practical when you have
9 mouths to feed.
As for me, I have no objection to strawberry-rhubarb,* assuming I
could eat it.

_____
*Other, of course, than querying the necessity of diluting the
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
rhubarb.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-12 22:28:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 11:58:48 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 5:13:50 PM UTC-4, Lawrence
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Sun, 11 Mar 2018 12:17:52 -0500, Cryptoengineer
Post by Cryptoengineer
Specificly, cold apple pie with cheese.
What? Are you claiming my mother wasn't a Yankee?
(She liked rhubarb pie for breakfast.)
Different rules in MA than in VT?
Maybe that's it.
One of my Dad's favorites was strawberry-rhubarb pie.
Just enough sweetness from the strawberries.
Yeah, my mother liked strawberry-rhubarb, but dropped the
strawberries when she had blood sugar issues.
Strawberry-rhubarb is for sissies who didn't have bhubarb
growing in their front yard as a kid. (I love rhubard pie, but
you never, ever, ever see it in restaurants in southern
California.)
I have, however, seen it in cafeterias in northern California.
Occasionally. Not that I could eat it now if I could find it.
I just wish that restaurants (and grocery stores) knew the
difference between sweetcorn and sweet corn.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-13 00:22:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 11:58:48 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 5:13:50 PM UTC-4, Lawrence
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Sun, 11 Mar 2018 12:17:52 -0500, Cryptoengineer
Post by Cryptoengineer
Specificly, cold apple pie with cheese.
What? Are you claiming my mother wasn't a Yankee?
(She liked rhubarb pie for breakfast.)
Different rules in MA than in VT?
Maybe that's it.
One of my Dad's favorites was strawberry-rhubarb pie.
Just enough sweetness from the strawberries.
Yeah, my mother liked strawberry-rhubarb, but dropped the
strawberries when she had blood sugar issues.
Strawberry-rhubarb is for sissies who didn't have bhubarb
growing in their front yard as a kid. (I love rhubard pie, but
you never, ever, ever see it in restaurants in southern
California.)
I have, however, seen it in cafeterias in northern California.
Occasionally. Not that I could eat it now if I could find it.
I just wish that restaurants (and grocery stores) knew the
difference between sweetcorn and sweet corn.
All right, enlighten me. What's the difference?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Ninapenda Jibini
2018-03-13 03:20:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 11:58:48 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 5:13:50 PM UTC-4, Lawrence
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Sun, 11 Mar 2018 12:17:52 -0500, Cryptoengineer
Post by Cryptoengineer
Specificly, cold apple pie with cheese.
What? Are you claiming my mother wasn't a Yankee?
(She liked rhubarb pie for breakfast.)
Different rules in MA than in VT?
Maybe that's it.
One of my Dad's favorites was strawberry-rhubarb pie.
Just enough sweetness from the strawberries.
Yeah, my mother liked strawberry-rhubarb, but dropped the
strawberries when she had blood sugar issues.
Strawberry-rhubarb is for sissies who didn't have bhubarb
growing in their front yard as a kid. (I love rhubard pie, but
you never, ever, ever see it in restaurants in southern
California.)
I have, however, seen it in cafeterias in northern California.
Occasionally. Not that I could eat it now if I could find it.
I just wish that restaurants (and grocery stores) knew the
difference between sweetcorn and sweet corn.
All right, enlighten me. What's the difference?
Sweetcorn is a specific (family of) subspecies, with a particular
(and especially sweet) taste. Sweet corn is pretty much anything
else, easier to grow in bulk, cheap and readily available.
Basically, pig food. Real sweetcorn is very rare outside of home
gardens in rural town, and occasionally in farmer's markets. I've
only ever seen it once in a restaurant (and it was an
extraordinary restaraunt in many ways). If you check in the
grocery store, you'll find it's always two words, often with
another word in between (like "sweet white corn"). It's deceptive
labeling, but not *quite* over the legal line.
--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-03-13 06:08:35 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 03:20:26 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 11:58:48 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 5:13:50 PM UTC-4, Lawrence
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Sun, 11 Mar 2018 12:17:52 -0500, Cryptoengineer
Post by Cryptoengineer
Specificly, cold apple pie with cheese.
What? Are you claiming my mother wasn't a Yankee?
(She liked rhubarb pie for breakfast.)
Different rules in MA than in VT?
Maybe that's it.
One of my Dad's favorites was strawberry-rhubarb pie.
Just enough sweetness from the strawberries.
Yeah, my mother liked strawberry-rhubarb, but dropped the
strawberries when she had blood sugar issues.
Strawberry-rhubarb is for sissies who didn't have bhubarb
growing in their front yard as a kid. (I love rhubard pie, but
you never, ever, ever see it in restaurants in southern
California.)
I have, however, seen it in cafeterias in northern California.
Occasionally. Not that I could eat it now if I could find it.
I just wish that restaurants (and grocery stores) knew the
difference between sweetcorn and sweet corn.
All right, enlighten me. What's the difference?
Sweetcorn is a specific (family of) subspecies, with a particular
(and especially sweet) taste. Sweet corn is pretty much anything
else, easier to grow in bulk, cheap and readily available.
Basically, pig food. Real sweetcorn is very rare outside of home
gardens in rural town, and occasionally in farmer's markets. I've
only ever seen it once in a restaurant (and it was an
extraordinary restaraunt in many ways). If you check in the
grocery store, you'll find it's always two words, often with
another word in between (like "sweet white corn"). It's deceptive
labeling, but not *quite* over the legal line.
We had friends in Kentucky who grew sweetcorn. Wonderful stuff.
Never seen it anywhere else.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
Titus G
2018-03-13 06:41:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 03:20:26 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 11:58:48 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 5:13:50 PM UTC-4, Lawrence
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Sun, 11 Mar 2018 12:17:52 -0500, Cryptoengineer
Post by Cryptoengineer
Specificly, cold apple pie with cheese.
What? Are you claiming my mother wasn't a Yankee?
(She liked rhubarb pie for breakfast.)
Different rules in MA than in VT?
Maybe that's it.
One of my Dad's favorites was strawberry-rhubarb pie.
Just enough sweetness from the strawberries.
Yeah, my mother liked strawberry-rhubarb, but dropped the
strawberries when she had blood sugar issues.
Strawberry-rhubarb is for sissies who didn't have bhubarb
growing in their front yard as a kid. (I love rhubard pie, but
you never, ever, ever see it in restaurants in southern
California.)
I have, however, seen it in cafeterias in northern California.
Occasionally. Not that I could eat it now if I could find it.
I just wish that restaurants (and grocery stores) knew the
difference between sweetcorn and sweet corn.
All right, enlighten me. What's the difference?
Sweetcorn is a specific (family of) subspecies, with a particular
(and especially sweet) taste. Sweet corn is pretty much anything
else, easier to grow in bulk, cheap and readily available.
Basically, pig food. Real sweetcorn is very rare outside of home
gardens in rural town, and occasionally in farmer's markets. I've
only ever seen it once in a restaurant (and it was an
extraordinary restaraunt in many ways). If you check in the
grocery store, you'll find it's always two words, often with
another word in between (like "sweet white corn"). It's deceptive
labeling, but not *quite* over the legal line.
We had friends in Kentucky who grew sweetcorn. Wonderful stuff.
Never seen it anywhere else.
Very plentiful to buy fresh in supermarkets in NZ and on special all
season, currently 61 cents per ear, roughly 20cm long. It doesn't keep
so is probably just produced for local markets. Agree that it is
wonderful stuff when doused with butter and seasoning.
J. Clarke
2018-03-13 11:08:37 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 02:08:35 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 03:20:26 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 11:58:48 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 5:13:50 PM UTC-4, Lawrence
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Sun, 11 Mar 2018 12:17:52 -0500, Cryptoengineer
Post by Cryptoengineer
Specificly, cold apple pie with cheese.
What? Are you claiming my mother wasn't a Yankee?
(She liked rhubarb pie for breakfast.)
Different rules in MA than in VT?
Maybe that's it.
One of my Dad's favorites was strawberry-rhubarb pie.
Just enough sweetness from the strawberries.
Yeah, my mother liked strawberry-rhubarb, but dropped the
strawberries when she had blood sugar issues.
Strawberry-rhubarb is for sissies who didn't have bhubarb
growing in their front yard as a kid. (I love rhubard pie, but
you never, ever, ever see it in restaurants in southern
California.)
I have, however, seen it in cafeterias in northern California.
Occasionally. Not that I could eat it now if I could find it.
I just wish that restaurants (and grocery stores) knew the
difference between sweetcorn and sweet corn.
All right, enlighten me. What's the difference?
Sweetcorn is a specific (family of) subspecies, with a particular
(and especially sweet) taste. Sweet corn is pretty much anything
else, easier to grow in bulk, cheap and readily available.
Basically, pig food. Real sweetcorn is very rare outside of home
gardens in rural town, and occasionally in farmer's markets. I've
only ever seen it once in a restaurant (and it was an
extraordinary restaraunt in many ways). If you check in the
grocery store, you'll find it's always two words, often with
another word in between (like "sweet white corn"). It's deceptive
labeling, but not *quite* over the legal line.
We had friends in Kentucky who grew sweetcorn. Wonderful stuff.
Never seen it anywhere else.
"Sweetcorn" vs "Sweet Corn" has to be a regionalism. And calling the
sweet corn sold at the grocery store "deceptive labelling" is at best
inflammatory. Try some field corn and see how you like it before you
start criticizing.

However there is a lot that goes on in corn. First, no corn is sweet
at maturity--it gets picked early before the sugar is converted to
starch--pick it too late and it's not sweet. Then there's the matter
of storage--corn loses sugar content over time where the time is
measured in hours. Overnight it loses half its sugar content. That's
why what you get in restaurants is not as sweet as what you get at a
farmer's table--it just can't be moved through the system that fast.

Around here roadside stands all over the place sell freshly harvested
corn when it's in season and it's all very sweet.

On top of all that there's the genetic makeup. Most corn is SU,
ordinary sugar corn. Freshly harvested it's quite sweet and generally
not bad but to hold sweetness for more than a few hours it has to be
processed.

There's also SE, (Sugar Enhanced) which is slighly sweeter but holds
sweetness longer after harvest. That's what you usually find at
farmers markets.

Then there's Sh2 (Shrunken variety 2) which has up to twice the sugar
of either of the others and holds it a lot longer--the texture is
different though and it has to be planted later.

The high-sweetness varieties also have to be isolated from lower
sweetness varieties or cross pollination happens and you lose the
benefits.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-13 16:00:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 02:08:35 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 03:20:26 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 11:58:48 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 5:13:50 PM UTC-4, Lawrence
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Sun, 11 Mar 2018 12:17:52 -0500, Cryptoengineer
Post by Cryptoengineer
Specificly, cold apple pie with cheese.
What? Are you claiming my mother wasn't a Yankee?
(She liked rhubarb pie for breakfast.)
Different rules in MA than in VT?
Maybe that's it.
One of my Dad's favorites was strawberry-rhubarb pie.
Just enough sweetness from the strawberries.
Yeah, my mother liked strawberry-rhubarb, but dropped the
strawberries when she had blood sugar issues.
Strawberry-rhubarb is for sissies who didn't have bhubarb
growing in their front yard as a kid. (I love rhubard pie,
but you never, ever, ever see it in restaurants in southern
California.)
I have, however, seen it in cafeterias in northern
California. Occasionally. Not that I could eat it now if I
could find it.
I just wish that restaurants (and grocery stores) knew the
difference between sweetcorn and sweet corn.
All right, enlighten me. What's the difference?
Sweetcorn is a specific (family of) subspecies, with a
particular (and especially sweet) taste. Sweet corn is pretty
much anything else, easier to grow in bulk, cheap and readily
available. Basically, pig food. Real sweetcorn is very rare
outside of home gardens in rural town, and occasionally in
farmer's markets. I've only ever seen it once in a restaurant
(and it was an extraordinary restaraunt in many ways). If you
check in the grocery store, you'll find it's always two words,
often with another word in between (like "sweet white corn").
It's deceptive labeling, but not *quite* over the legal line.
We had friends in Kentucky who grew sweetcorn. Wonderful stuff.
Never seen it anywhere else.
"Sweetcorn" vs "Sweet Corn" has to be a regionalism.
Not in the US. It's based on federal labeling regulations.
Post by J. Clarke
And
calling the sweet corn sold at the grocery store "deceptive
labelling" is at best inflammatory.
You've clealry nevr had the real thing.
Post by J. Clarke
Try some field corn and see
how you like it before you start criticizing.
I gre up in a part of Nebraska where corn is the main crop.
Missouri, too, for that matter. We grew sweetcorn in our garden. If
I want field corn, I can go the grocery store and buy a can of
"sweet white corn."

*You* should try some real sweetcorn before you look even stupider.
Post by J. Clarke
However there is a lot that goes on in corn. First, no corn is
sweet at maturity--it gets picked early before the sugar is
converted to starch--pick it too late and it's not sweet. Then
there's the matter of storage--corn loses sugar content over
time where the time is measured in hours. Overnight it loses
half its sugar content. That's why what you get in restaurants
is not as sweet as what you get at a farmer's table--it just
can't be moved through the system that fast.
Unless, of course, you a) grow it in your own yard, or b) buy it at
a farmer's market and use it the same day. (The latter is what the
one restaurant I've ever seen it at did.)

Plus, sweetcorn is a different variety. Popcorn isn't feed corn,
and neither is sweetcorn.
Post by J. Clarke
Around here roadside stands all over the place sell freshly
harvested corn when it's in season and it's all very sweet.
That you can type that with a straight face tells me that it's not
sweetcorn.
Post by J. Clarke
On top of all that there's the genetic makeup. Most corn is SU,
ordinary sugar corn. Freshly harvested it's quite sweet and
generally not bad but to hold sweetness for more than a few
hours it has to be processed.
There's also SE, (Sugar Enhanced) which is slighly sweeter but
holds sweetness longer after harvest. That's what you usually
find at farmers markets.
Then there's Sh2 (Shrunken variety 2) which has up to twice the
sugar of either of the others and holds it a lot longer--the
texture is different though and it has to be planted later.
The high-sweetness varieties also have to be isolated from lower
sweetness varieties or cross pollination happens and you lose
the benefits.
Your use of abbreviations and technical names means you're talking
about commercial varieties, none of which are sweetcorn. You have
to go to a specialty seed supplies - one that specialized in
boutique varities, and sells to gardeners - to get the real thing.
Which you've clearly never = ever = had.

I learned a bit about it all working for Pfizer Genetics in St.
Louis one summer in high school. Nasty industry, focused entirely
on bulk. They were, at that point, from what we could tell,
breeding more for water content than anything else. But sugar
content was important, too.

There's more - far more - difference in the taste than *just* the
sugar content. Pigs don't much care what their corn tastes like.

Andy ou're as stupid as ever.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Kevrob
2018-03-13 17:40:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I gre up in a part of Nebraska where corn is the main crop.
Missouri, too, for that matter. We grew sweetcorn in our garden. If
I want field corn, I can go the grocery store and buy a can of
"sweet white corn."
*You* should try some real sweetcorn before you look even stupider.
There's more - far more - difference in the taste than *just* the
sugar content. Pigs don't much care what their corn tastes like.
Andy ou're as stupid as ever.
I grew up half-way between Times Square and Montauk Point on Long
Island, and now live in Connecticut. We bought our ears of corn from
farmstands. There was a Polish farmer who grew any kind of vegetable
about a mile away from my Dad's job, and he'd pick up corn, tomatoes,
squash, etc. on his way home. He took the family there many times.
The village we stayed at in the summer had one commercial business:
a farmstand that fronted State Route 25A, with a micro-farm behind it.
When we asked for enough corn to feed 11 people, the lady running
the stand would sometimes send one of the kids into the rows of
corn to pick it fresh.

Connecticut has some excellent corn. I live within a two-mile
walk of two different farmstands, attached to actual farms. I can
think of several more that are on the route to and from my job.
It's a sad day in the fall, when you hear, "sorry, there's no
more corn until next year."

Some of the local supermarkets put signs up letting you know
where the corn is from: hyper-local, with the name of the local
farm listed, or it might say "Jersey corn." Corn that appears
too early in the year has been trucked up from the south, and it
is never as good as the first local corn of the summer.

Then the connoisseurs can argue over their favorite varieties:
white, yellow, bicolor. I like all of those, but the bicolor
that is popular here is very nice, especially if you can get it
fresh-picked.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/nyregion/01dinect.html

I have had kids who grew up on the farm tell me that if
you have just picked an ear that was grown for the table,
you can eat it without even bothering to cook it, and it
will still be delicious. A prank to pull on city slickers
is to do that, then encourage the City Mouse to chow down
on the ear of field corn, which is grown as cattle feed,
or to be processed into ethanol.

Kevin R
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-13 18:12:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
I have had kids who grew up on the farm tell me that if
you have just picked an ear that was grown for the table,
you can eat it without even bothering to cook it, and it
will still be delicious.
This is entirely true.
Post by Kevrob
A prank to pull on city slickers
is to do that, then encourage the City Mouse to chow down
on the ear of field corn, which is grown as cattle feed,
or to be processed into ethanol.
That's kinda mean, but hey, pig food is for pigs, eh?
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Kevrob
2018-03-13 18:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Kevrob
A prank to pull on city slickers
is to do that, then encourage the City Mouse to chow down
on the ear of field corn, which is grown as cattle feed,
or to be processed into ethanol.
That's kinda mean, but hey, pig food is for pigs, eh?
It's kinder than being sent to milk the bull :)

Kevin R
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-13 20:41:03 UTC
Permalink
On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 2:12:46 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Kevrob
A prank to pull on city slickers
is to do that, then encourage the City Mouse to chow down
on the ear of field corn, which is grown as cattle feed,
or to be processed into ethanol.
That's kinda mean, but hey, pig food is for pigs, eh?
It's kinder than being sent to milk the bull :)
Heh. If you do it right, the bull likes it.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
J. Clarke
2018-03-14 00:16:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I gre up in a part of Nebraska where corn is the main crop.
Missouri, too, for that matter. We grew sweetcorn in our garden. If
I want field corn, I can go the grocery store and buy a can of
"sweet white corn."
*You* should try some real sweetcorn before you look even stupider.
There's more - far more - difference in the taste than *just* the
sugar content. Pigs don't much care what their corn tastes like.
Andy ou're as stupid as ever.
I grew up half-way between Times Square and Montauk Point on Long
Island, and now live in Connecticut. We bought our ears of corn from
farmstands. There was a Polish farmer who grew any kind of vegetable
about a mile away from my Dad's job, and he'd pick up corn, tomatoes,
squash, etc. on his way home. He took the family there many times.
a farmstand that fronted State Route 25A, with a micro-farm behind it.
When we asked for enough corn to feed 11 people, the lady running
the stand would sometimes send one of the kids into the rows of
corn to pick it fresh.
Connecticut has some excellent corn. I live within a two-mile
walk of two different farmstands, attached to actual farms. I can
think of several more that are on the route to and from my job.
It's a sad day in the fall, when you hear, "sorry, there's no
more corn until next year."
Some of the local supermarkets put signs up letting you know
where the corn is from: hyper-local, with the name of the local
farm listed, or it might say "Jersey corn." Corn that appears
too early in the year has been trucked up from the south, and it
is never as good as the first local corn of the summer.
white, yellow, bicolor. I like all of those, but the bicolor
that is popular here is very nice, especially if you can get it
fresh-picked.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/nyregion/01dinect.html
I have had kids who grew up on the farm tell me that if
you have just picked an ear that was grown for the table,
you can eat it without even bothering to cook it, and it
will still be delicious. A prank to pull on city slickers
is to do that, then encourage the City Mouse to chow down
on the ear of field corn, which is grown as cattle feed,
or to be processed into ethanol.
Yep. Farm to the west, and big farm to the east. Both put out stands
when the corn is ready. Terry should try some.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-14 02:51:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 12:00:09 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I gre up in a part of Nebraska where corn is the main crop.
Missouri, too, for that matter. We grew sweetcorn in our garden. If
I want field corn, I can go the grocery store and buy a can of
"sweet white corn."
*You* should try some real sweetcorn before you look even stupider.
There's more - far more - difference in the taste than *just* the
sugar content. Pigs don't much care what their corn tastes like.
Andy ou're as stupid as ever.
I grew up half-way between Times Square and Montauk Point on Long
Island, and now live in Connecticut. We bought our ears of corn from
farmstands. There was a Polish farmer who grew any kind of vegetable
about a mile away from my Dad's job, and he'd pick up corn, tomatoes,
squash, etc. on his way home. He took the family there many times.
a farmstand that fronted State Route 25A, with a micro-farm behind it.
When we asked for enough corn to feed 11 people, the lady running
the stand would sometimes send one of the kids into the rows of
corn to pick it fresh.
Connecticut has some excellent corn. I live within a two-mile
walk of two different farmstands, attached to actual farms. I can
think of several more that are on the route to and from my job.
It's a sad day in the fall, when you hear, "sorry, there's no
more corn until next year."
Some of the local supermarkets put signs up letting you know
where the corn is from: hyper-local, with the name of the local
farm listed, or it might say "Jersey corn." Corn that appears
too early in the year has been trucked up from the south, and it
is never as good as the first local corn of the summer.
white, yellow, bicolor. I like all of those, but the bicolor
that is popular here is very nice, especially if you can get it
fresh-picked.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/nyregion/01dinect.html
I have had kids who grew up on the farm tell me that if
you have just picked an ear that was grown for the table,
you can eat it without even bothering to cook it, and it
will still be delicious. A prank to pull on city slickers
is to do that, then encourage the City Mouse to chow down
on the ear of field corn, which is grown as cattle feed,
or to be processed into ethanol.
Yep. Farm to the west, and big farm to the east. Both put out stands
when the corn is ready. Terry should try some.
Where are the farms you mention? Terry lives in Southern California.
I remember walking into a grocery store in a suburb of Chicago
and seeing in the produce section, "Lettuce Fresh from
California!" It was iceberg, and all the green leaves had been
stripped off and the white leaves bound up in plastic netting
that left brown scars all over it. Depending on where these
corn-growing farms are located, by the time the corn reached
Terry it might not be even edible any more.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
J. Clarke
2018-03-14 03:09:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 12:00:09 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I gre up in a part of Nebraska where corn is the main crop.
Missouri, too, for that matter. We grew sweetcorn in our garden. If
I want field corn, I can go the grocery store and buy a can of
"sweet white corn."
*You* should try some real sweetcorn before you look even stupider.
There's more - far more - difference in the taste than *just* the
sugar content. Pigs don't much care what their corn tastes like.
Andy ou're as stupid as ever.
I grew up half-way between Times Square and Montauk Point on Long
Island, and now live in Connecticut. We bought our ears of corn from
farmstands. There was a Polish farmer who grew any kind of vegetable
about a mile away from my Dad's job, and he'd pick up corn, tomatoes,
squash, etc. on his way home. He took the family there many times.
a farmstand that fronted State Route 25A, with a micro-farm behind it.
When we asked for enough corn to feed 11 people, the lady running
the stand would sometimes send one of the kids into the rows of
corn to pick it fresh.
Connecticut has some excellent corn. I live within a two-mile
walk of two different farmstands, attached to actual farms. I can
think of several more that are on the route to and from my job.
It's a sad day in the fall, when you hear, "sorry, there's no
more corn until next year."
Some of the local supermarkets put signs up letting you know
where the corn is from: hyper-local, with the name of the local
farm listed, or it might say "Jersey corn." Corn that appears
too early in the year has been trucked up from the south, and it
is never as good as the first local corn of the summer.
white, yellow, bicolor. I like all of those, but the bicolor
that is popular here is very nice, especially if you can get it
fresh-picked.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/nyregion/01dinect.html
I have had kids who grew up on the farm tell me that if
you have just picked an ear that was grown for the table,
you can eat it without even bothering to cook it, and it
will still be delicious. A prank to pull on city slickers
is to do that, then encourage the City Mouse to chow down
on the ear of field corn, which is grown as cattle feed,
or to be processed into ethanol.
Yep. Farm to the west, and big farm to the east. Both put out stands
when the corn is ready. Terry should try some.
Where are the farms you mention? Terry lives in Southern California.
I remember walking into a grocery store in a suburb of Chicago
and seeing in the produce section, "Lettuce Fresh from
California!" It was iceberg, and all the green leaves had been
stripped off and the white leaves bound up in plastic netting
that left brown scars all over it. Depending on where these
corn-growing farms are located, by the time the corn reached
Terry it might not be even edible any more.
That's OK, Terry is only fit for pig food anyway.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-14 16:08:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 10:40:05 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 12:00:09 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
Tumbili
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I gre up in a part of Nebraska where corn is the main crop.
Missouri, too, for that matter. We grew sweetcorn in our
garden. If I want field corn, I can go the grocery store and
buy a can of "sweet white corn."
*You* should try some real sweetcorn before you look even
stupider.
There's more - far more - difference in the taste than
*just* the sugar content. Pigs don't much care what their
corn tastes like.
Andy ou're as stupid as ever.
I grew up half-way between Times Square and Montauk Point on
Long Island, and now live in Connecticut. We bought our ears
of corn from farmstands. There was a Polish farmer who grew
any kind of vegetable about a mile away from my Dad's job, and
he'd pick up corn, tomatoes, squash, etc. on his way home. He
took the family there many times. The village we stayed at in
the summer had one commercial business: a farmstand that
fronted State Route 25A, with a micro-farm behind it. When we
asked for enough corn to feed 11 people, the lady running
the stand would sometimes send one of the kids into the rows
of corn to pick it fresh.
Connecticut has some excellent corn. I live within a two-mile
walk of two different farmstands, attached to actual farms. I
can think of several more that are on the route to and from my
job. It's a sad day in the fall, when you hear, "sorry,
there's no more corn until next year."
Some of the local supermarkets put signs up letting you know
where the corn is from: hyper-local, with the name of the
local farm listed, or it might say "Jersey corn." Corn that
appears too early in the year has been trucked up from the
south, and it is never as good as the first local corn of the
summer.
white, yellow, bicolor. I like all of those, but the bicolor
that is popular here is very nice, especially if you can get
it fresh-picked.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/nyregion/01dinect.html
I have had kids who grew up on the farm tell me that if
you have just picked an ear that was grown for the table,
you can eat it without even bothering to cook it, and it
will still be delicious. A prank to pull on city slickers
is to do that, then encourage the City Mouse to chow down
on the ear of field corn, which is grown as cattle feed,
or to be processed into ethanol.
Yep. Farm to the west, and big farm to the east. Both put out
stands when the corn is ready. Terry should try some.
Where are the farms you mention? Terry lives in Southern
California. I remember walking into a grocery store in a suburb
of Chicago and seeing in the produce section, "Lettuce Fresh
from California!" It was iceberg, and all the green leaves had
been stripped off and the white leaves bound up in plastic
netting that left brown scars all over it. Depending on where
these corn-growing farms are located, by the time the corn
reached Terry it might not be even edible any more.
That's OK, Terry is only fit for pig food anyway.
I'd rather eat it be *be* it.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Scott Lurndal
2018-03-14 14:11:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Yep. Farm to the west, and big farm to the east. Both put out stands
when the corn is ready. Terry should try some.
Where are the farms you mention? Terry lives in Southern California.
I remember walking into a grocery store in a suburb of Chicago
and seeing in the produce section, "Lettuce Fresh from
California!" It was iceberg, and all the green leaves had been
stripped off and the white leaves bound up in plastic netting
that left brown scars all over it. Depending on where these
corn-growing farms are located, by the time the corn reached
Terry it might not be even edible any more.
There is a considerable amount of sweetcorn grown in california.

The Imperial valley is relatively close to Terry.

The Salinas valley is relatively close to the Bay Area - and
many farmer's markets where the produce is sold.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-14 16:07:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 10:40:05 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 12:00:09 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I gre up in a part of Nebraska where corn is the main crop.
Missouri, too, for that matter. We grew sweetcorn in our
garden. If I want field corn, I can go the grocery store and
buy a can of "sweet white corn."
*You* should try some real sweetcorn before you look even
stupider.
There's more - far more - difference in the taste than *just*
the sugar content. Pigs don't much care what their corn tastes
like.
Andy ou're as stupid as ever.
I grew up half-way between Times Square and Montauk Point on
Long Island, and now live in Connecticut. We bought our ears of
corn from farmstands. There was a Polish farmer who grew any
kind of vegetable about a mile away from my Dad's job, and he'd
pick up corn, tomatoes, squash, etc. on his way home. He took
the family there many times. The village we stayed at in the
summer had one commercial business: a farmstand that fronted
State Route 25A, with a micro-farm behind it. When we asked for
enough corn to feed 11 people, the lady running the stand would
sometimes send one of the kids into the rows of corn to pick it
fresh.
Connecticut has some excellent corn. I live within a two-mile
walk of two different farmstands, attached to actual farms. I
can think of several more that are on the route to and from my
job. It's a sad day in the fall, when you hear, "sorry, there's
no more corn until next year."
Some of the local supermarkets put signs up letting you know
where the corn is from: hyper-local, with the name of the local
farm listed, or it might say "Jersey corn." Corn that appears
too early in the year has been trucked up from the south, and it
is never as good as the first local corn of the summer.
white, yellow, bicolor. I like all of those, but the bicolor
that is popular here is very nice, especially if you can get it
fresh-picked.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/nyregion/01dinect.html
I have had kids who grew up on the farm tell me that if
you have just picked an ear that was grown for the table,
you can eat it without even bothering to cook it, and it
will still be delicious. A prank to pull on city slickers
is to do that, then encourage the City Mouse to chow down
on the ear of field corn, which is grown as cattle feed,
or to be processed into ethanol.
Yep. Farm to the west, and big farm to the east. Both put out
stands when the corn is ready. Terry should try some.
LIke I said, we grew it in the yard when I was a kid. It was
delicious.

Decades before whiny children like you were born.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Gene Wirchenko
2018-03-14 00:41:05 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 10:40:05 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <***@my-deja.com>
wrote:


[snip]
Post by Kevrob
I have had kids who grew up on the farm tell me that if
you have just picked an ear that was grown for the table,
you can eat it without even bothering to cook it, and it
will still be delicious. ...
[snip]

I have eaten just-picked corn raw. It was delicious.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-06 23:47:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
What good ideals did they represent?
Steadfastness is the virtue that the Trojans were remembered for.
ObSF: From Red Dwarf, "The Inquisitor"
LISTER: So all of a sudden they wake up one mornin' and the Greeks have
gone. And there outside the city walls they've left this gift; this
tribute to their valiant foes: a huge wooden horse, just large enough to
happily contain 500 Greeks in full battle dress and still leave adequate
room for toilet facilities? Are you telling me not one Trojan goes,
"Hang on a minute, that's a bit of a funny prezzy. What's wrong with a
couple hundred pairs of socks and some aftershave?" No, they don't --
they just wheel it in and all decide to go for an early night! People
that stupid deserve to be kerpowed, zapped and kersplatted in their
beds! You know what the big joke is? From this particular phase in
history we derive the phrase, "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts," when it
would be much more logical to derive the phrase, "Beware of Trojans,
they're complete smegheads!"
Well, there was this guy Sinon who was sitting with the horse,
and told the Trojans, "This is a sacred shrine to Athene (on
wheels), and if you get it inside your walls they'll never be
able to attack you again."

Now, your point stands. They were dumb to believe him. But they
didn't just say "Hey, neat horse!" and haul it inside on their
own initiative.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Gene Wirchenko
2018-03-07 07:12:35 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 23:47:16 GMT, ***@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

[snip]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Well, there was this guy Sinon who was sitting with the horse,
and told the Trojans, "This is a sacred shrine to Athene (on
wheels), and if you get it inside your walls they'll never be
able to attack you again."
After a slight delay. Sacked cities can not be attacked.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Now, your point stands. They were dumb to believe him. But they
didn't just say "Hey, neat horse!" and haul it inside on their
own initiative.
Hmm, this would have been a early case of controlling the
narrative.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
David Goldfarb
2018-03-08 06:15:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Well, there was this guy Sinon who was sitting with the horse,
and told the Trojans, "This is a sacred shrine to Athene (on
wheels), and if you get it inside your walls they'll never be
able to attack you again."
Also there was one of the Trojans who said, "We should destroy it!
I fear the Greeks, even bearing gifts." And the gods straightaway
sent two giant snakes to kill him *and* his children. The Trojans,
not unreasonably, concluded from this that the gods wanted them to
take it inside. Which wasn't wrong, it was just that the gods didn't
have their best interests at heart.

In the Odyssey, we're told that while the Greeks in the horse were
waiting for nightfall, Helen walked around the horse imitating
the voices of various Greek chieftains' wives. And the Greek chieftains
wanted to get out of the horse and be with their wives, and were only
restrained by Odysseus. If so, then the Trojans certainly had no
monopoly on being dumbasses.
--
David Goldfarb |"Bagels can be an enormous force for good or
***@gmail.com | for evil. It is up to us to decide how we
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | will use them."
| -- Daniel M. Pinkwater
Kevrob
2018-03-06 21:57:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by a425couple
Post by C. E. Gee
Aphelion Webzine, in their Flash Fiction Department has
published “Trojan Truth” by C.E. Gee. --
The Greeks were not the heroes in the Trojan War,
they were the villains.
Oh Yeah!
Kidnappers, rapists & losers.
Well, what I'd like to know, is why the name 'Troy'
is popularly used (for towns, colleges etc.)
and why the nick name 'trojans' are often used for
sports teams?
People who read the Aenead must have chosen that.
"Spartans" is pretty popular, too.
Post by a425couple
They lost.
And what did they do to improve the world?
What good ideals did they represent?
What did they ever do for USC football?
How come we have no teams named for the Carthaginians?
How about the Visgoths?
Athenieans?
Mt St Mary's, in LA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_St._Mary%27s_University_(Los_Angeles)

All-women university.

There was a whole "association" football league:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_League
along with Delphian and Corintian leagues.

Was there a Sapphic Softball league? :)
Post by a425couple
Persians? Goths?
Ostrogoths on the east coast?
Visigoths on the west?
Post by a425couple
Huns?
Minor league baseball team in PA, late 19th Century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenandoah_Huns
Post by a425couple
Franks? Slavs? Saxons?
Saxons? Here ya go:

Alfred_University, Alfred NY.

Also:

Loara HS CA,
North Torrance HS CA,
Schaumburg HS IL,
Hastings HS MI

(The Saxons lost that one,
I wonder why they aren't the Normans?)

Oh, Normans:

Beverly Hills HS, CA

(But if "Norman" was an especially ferocious
Hollywood agent....)
Post by a425couple
Hittites?
Some college should be the Jutes.
Their basketball team could be the Jumpin' Jutes.
Post by a425couple
(Yes, yes, I do realize Vikings and Vandals are
properly remembered.)
Wayne State in Cleveland used to be The Tartars.
El Camino College, Compton CA still are.

There's a Ukranian ice hockey team that goes by
"Cossacks" - Vinnytski Haidamaky

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnytski_Haidamaky

Granville High School in NY State are "the Golden Horde"

I'm all for renaming the Los Angeles National League
baseball team "the Moguls."

The Dodgers is a name, of, for, and by Brooklyn.

Kevin R

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_sports_team_and_mascot_names#Vandals

http://sportsnicknames.wikia.com/wiki/Sports_Nicknames_Wiki
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-06 22:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
I'm all for renaming the Los Angeles National League
baseball team "the Moguls."
The Dodgers is a name, of, for, and by Brooklyn.
Switching teams slightly, I remember a cartoon from back in the
day. Man sitting in his armchair, in front of his television
(which is turned off), a disconsolate look on his face. His wife
explains to a neighbor lady, "Since the Giants moved to San
Francisco, he's lost the will to live."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Kevrob
2018-03-07 00:55:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
I'm all for renaming the Los Angeles National League
baseball team "the Moguls."
The Dodgers is a name, of, for, and by Brooklyn.
Switching teams slightly, I remember a cartoon from back in the
day. Man sitting in his armchair, in front of his television
(which is turned off), a disconsolate look on his face. His wife
explains to a neighbor lady, "Since the Giants moved to San
Francisco, he's lost the will to live."
Got to have been the New Yorker. The Jints played on Manhattan,
on Coogan's Bluff, just the other side of the Harlem River from
The Temple of Evil, or its modern replacement. :)

Kevin R

(Don't expect consistency. I was raised a NY Football Giants
fan, and have a warm childhood memory of catching a game at
Yankee Stadium with my brothers and my Dad. It was actually
quite cold up there in the nosebleeds, but the memory is warm.)
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-07 14:35:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
I'm all for renaming the Los Angeles National League
baseball team "the Moguls."
The Dodgers is a name, of, for, and by Brooklyn.
Switching teams slightly, I remember a cartoon from back in the
day. Man sitting in his armchair, in front of his television
(which is turned off), a disconsolate look on his face. His wife
explains to a neighbor lady, "Since the Giants moved to San
Francisco, he's lost the will to live."
Got to have been the New Yorker. The Jints played on Manhattan,
on Coogan's Bluff, just the other side of the Harlem River from
The Temple of Evil, or its modern replacement. :)
No, I don't think it was the New Yorker. I *think* it was the
Saturday Evening Post or one of those other magazines that no
longer exists.

And, having been in NYC once in my life, to spend an afternoon at
the Museum of Natural History, I don't recognize most of your
geographical references.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Scott Lurndal
2018-03-07 15:15:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
I'm all for renaming the Los Angeles National League
baseball team "the Moguls."
The Dodgers is a name, of, for, and by Brooklyn.
Switching teams slightly, I remember a cartoon from back in the
day. Man sitting in his armchair, in front of his television
(which is turned off), a disconsolate look on his face. His wife
explains to a neighbor lady, "Since the Giants moved to San
Francisco, he's lost the will to live."
Got to have been the New Yorker. The Jints played on Manhattan,
on Coogan's Bluff, just the other side of the Harlem River from
The Temple of Evil, or its modern replacement. :)
No, I don't think it was the New Yorker. I *think* it was the
Saturday Evening Post or one of those other magazines that no
longer exists.
And, having been in NYC once in my life, to spend an afternoon at
the Museum of Natural History, I don't recognize most of your
geographical references.
The Temple of Evil probably refers to Yankee Stadium. The polo
grounds (Dodgers) were in Brooklyn.
Kevrob
2018-03-07 16:41:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
I'm all for renaming the Los Angeles National League
baseball team "the Moguls."
The Dodgers is a name, of, for, and by Brooklyn.
Switching teams slightly, I remember a cartoon from back in the
day. Man sitting in his armchair, in front of his television
(which is turned off), a disconsolate look on his face. His wife
explains to a neighbor lady, "Since the Giants moved to San
Francisco, he's lost the will to live."
Got to have been the New Yorker. The Jints played on Manhattan,
on Coogan's Bluff, just the other side of the Harlem River from
The Temple of Evil, or its modern replacement. :)
No, I don't think it was the New Yorker. I *think* it was the
Saturday Evening Post or one of those other magazines that no
longer exists.
And, having been in NYC once in my life, to spend an afternoon at
the Museum of Natural History, I don't recognize most of your
geographical references.
The Temple of Evil probably refers to Yankee Stadium. The polo
grounds (Dodgers) were in Brooklyn.
Late in the 19th century, the Giants (nee "Gothams") played at the
third "Polo Grounds," about as far north as you could get on
Manhattan Island. The nearby neighborhoods are now northern
Harlem and Washington Heights. When the Yankees (nee Highlnders)
built their own stadium, after being tenants of the Giants at
the Polo Grounds, they sited it right across the Harlem River,
in the Bronx. Hence the sobriquet, "Bronx Bombers."

Kevin R
Kevrob
2018-03-07 17:31:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
I'm all for renaming the Los Angeles National League
baseball team "the Moguls."
The Dodgers is a name, of, for, and by Brooklyn.
Switching teams slightly, I remember a cartoon from back in the
day. Man sitting in his armchair, in front of his television
(which is turned off), a disconsolate look on his face. His wife
explains to a neighbor lady, "Since the Giants moved to San
Francisco, he's lost the will to live."
Got to have been the New Yorker. The Jints played on Manhattan,
on Coogan's Bluff, just the other side of the Harlem River from
The Temple of Evil, or its modern replacement. :)
No, I don't think it was the New Yorker. I *think* it was the
Saturday Evening Post or one of those other magazines that no
longer exists.
And, having been in NYC once in my life, to spend an afternoon at
the Museum of Natural History, I don't recognize most of your
geographical references.
The Temple of Evil probably refers to Yankee Stadium.
The polo
grounds (Dodgers) were in Brooklyn.
Ebbetts Field, where the Dodgers played, was Brooklyn.

My Dad was a fan of Dem Bums, and we continue to be a National
League family, having adopted the Mets.

Kevin R
Scott Lurndal
2018-03-07 17:37:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
I'm all for renaming the Los Angeles National League
baseball team "the Moguls."
The Dodgers is a name, of, for, and by Brooklyn.
Switching teams slightly, I remember a cartoon from back in the
day. Man sitting in his armchair, in front of his television
(which is turned off), a disconsolate look on his face. His wife
explains to a neighbor lady, "Since the Giants moved to San
Francisco, he's lost the will to live."
Got to have been the New Yorker. The Jints played on Manhattan,
on Coogan's Bluff, just the other side of the Harlem River from
The Temple of Evil, or its modern replacement. :)
No, I don't think it was the New Yorker. I *think* it was the
Saturday Evening Post or one of those other magazines that no
longer exists.
And, having been in NYC once in my life, to spend an afternoon at
the Museum of Natural History, I don't recognize most of your
geographical references.
The Temple of Evil probably refers to Yankee Stadium.
The polo
grounds (Dodgers) were in Brooklyn.
Ebbetts Field, where the Dodgers played, was Brooklyn.
My Dad was a fan of Dem Bums, and we continue to be a National
League family, having adopted the Mets.
Chavez ravine (dem bums) is still one of my favorite places to see
a baseball game. China basin (gigantes) is a very close second.

I did enjoy the game I saw at Yankee Stadium before they
remodelled, but the walk back to the subway after dark
was memorable.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-03-07 18:45:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
I'm all for renaming the Los Angeles National League
baseball team "the Moguls."
The Dodgers is a name, of, for, and by Brooklyn.
Switching teams slightly, I remember a cartoon from back in the
day. Man sitting in his armchair, in front of his television
(which is turned off), a disconsolate look on his face. His wife
explains to a neighbor lady, "Since the Giants moved to San
Francisco, he's lost the will to live."
Got to have been the New Yorker. The Jints played on Manhattan,
on Coogan's Bluff, just the other side of the Harlem River from
The Temple of Evil, or its modern replacement. :)
No, I don't think it was the New Yorker. I *think* it was the
Saturday Evening Post or one of those other magazines that no
longer exists.
And, having been in NYC once in my life, to spend an afternoon at
the Museum of Natural History, I don't recognize most of your
geographical references.
The Temple of Evil probably refers to Yankee Stadium.
The polo
grounds (Dodgers) were in Brooklyn.
Ebbetts Field, where the Dodgers played, was Brooklyn.
My Dad was a fan of Dem Bums, and we continue to be a National
League family, having adopted the Mets.
My Dad was from Brooklyn. He gave up on baseball completely when the
Dodgers left, even though he'd been living in Massachusetts for years
by then.

My mother, on the other hand, mostly grew up in Philadelphia, but
happily switched her allegiance to the Red Sox in 1947 and remained a
fan until her death. (Which, alas, was before 2004, so she never saw
them win a Series.)

My own interests have varied over time, but these days I'm a Nats fan,
with a secondary interest in the Sox.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-07 18:06:29 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 09:31:16 -0800 (PST), Kevrob
Post by Kevrob
Post by Scott Lurndal
In article
On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 5:30:05 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J
In article
Post by Kevrob
I'm all for renaming the Los Angeles National League
baseball team "the Moguls."
The Dodgers is a name, of, for, and by Brooklyn.
Switching teams slightly, I remember a cartoon from back
in the day. Man sitting in his armchair, in front of his
television (which is turned off), a disconsolate look on
his face. His wife explains to a neighbor lady, "Since
the Giants moved to San Francisco, he's lost the will to
live."
Got to have been the New Yorker. The Jints played on
Manhattan, on Coogan's Bluff, just the other side of the
Harlem River from The Temple of Evil, or its modern
replacement. :)
No, I don't think it was the New Yorker. I *think* it was
the Saturday Evening Post or one of those other magazines
that no longer exists.
And, having been in NYC once in my life, to spend an
afternoon at the Museum of Natural History, I don't recognize
most of your geographical references.
The Temple of Evil probably refers to Yankee Stadium.
The polo
grounds (Dodgers) were in Brooklyn.
Ebbetts Field, where the Dodgers played, was Brooklyn.
My Dad was a fan of Dem Bums, and we continue to be a National
League family, having adopted the Mets.
My Dad was from Brooklyn. He gave up on baseball completely
when the Dodgers left, even though he'd been living in
Massachusetts for years by then.
My mother, on the other hand, mostly grew up in Philadelphia,
but happily switched her allegiance to the Red Sox in 1947 and
remained a fan until her death. (Which, alas, was before 2004,
so she never saw them win a Series.)
My own interests have varied over time, but these days I'm a
Nats fan, with a secondary interest in the Sox.
So, remind me again, is this football, baseball or hockey you're
talking about?

(Almost serious. I find sports more boring than most televsion. The
only thing more boring than athletic sports is esports.)
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Kevrob
2018-03-07 20:29:44 UTC
Permalink
On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 2:06:33 PM UTC-5, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
s this football, baseball or hockey you're
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
talking about?
(Almost serious. I find sports more boring than most televsion. The
only thing more boring than athletic sports is esports.)
--
Baseball, mostly, though there are New York Football Giants,
and there used to be both Brooklyn Dodger and New York Yankee
football teams.

Esports are to actual sports as
an Avalon Hill game is to an actual battle.

Esp
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-07 20:14:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Esports are to actual sports as
an Avalon Hill game is to an actual battle.
Trying to define "actual sports" in a way that anyone else would
agree with, including yourself tomorrow, is exactly the same as
trying to define "science fiction" in way that anyone would agree
with, including yourself tomorrow. Which is to say, pretty pointless,
petty, and more about your own insecurities than any definitions.

I really don't get why anyone would want to watch someone else play a
video game, but hey, if that's your thing, go for it. (And it clearly
is the thing for a lot of people, as there are professionals in the
field.)
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Peter Trei
2018-03-08 15:45:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
s this football, baseball or hockey you're
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
talking about?
(Almost serious. I find sports more boring than most televsion. The
only thing more boring than athletic sports is esports.)
--
Baseball, mostly, though there are New York Football Giants,
and there used to be both Brooklyn Dodger and New York Yankee
football teams.
Esports are to actual sports as
an Avalon Hill game is to an actual battle.
The same could be said of chess and war.

I don't think that invalidates chess, or esports.

The all test different skills to different levels; strategy,
adapting to the opponent's moves on the fly, quick reactions.
Even esports involve some physical conditioning - I've heard
people in their mid-20s complain that they're over-the-hill
for some twitch games, no longer have the fast reactions
needed to play at the highest level, and have to spend time
training to improve their speed.

pt
Kevrob
2018-03-08 17:04:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
s this football, baseball or hockey you're
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
talking about?
(Almost serious. I find sports more boring than most televsion. The
only thing more boring than athletic sports is esports.)
--
Baseball, mostly, though there are New York Football Giants,
and there used to be both Brooklyn Dodger and New York Yankee
football teams.
Esports are to actual sports as
an Avalon Hill game is to an actual battle.
The same could be said of chess and war.
I don't think that invalidates chess, or esports.
The all test different skills to different levels; strategy,
adapting to the opponent's moves on the fly, quick reactions.
Even esports involve some physical conditioning - I've heard
people in their mid-20s complain that they're over-the-hill
for some twitch games, no longer have the fast reactions
needed to play at the highest level, and have to spend time
training to improve their speed.
As for the physicality of e-"sports," I guess that could
put them on the level of certain games: billiards, pool,
snooker, darts, even golf - where one doesn't have to be
an otherwise extraordinary physical specimen to perform
at world-class levels.

OBSFFilm: The Last Starfighter


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Starfighter


Kevin R
Chris Buckley
2018-03-09 01:53:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
s this football, baseball or hockey you're
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
talking about?
(Almost serious. I find sports more boring than most televsion. The
only thing more boring than athletic sports is esports.)
--
Baseball, mostly, though there are New York Football Giants,
and there used to be both Brooklyn Dodger and New York Yankee
football teams.
Esports are to actual sports as
an Avalon Hill game is to an actual battle.
The same could be said of chess and war.
I don't think that invalidates chess, or esports.
The all test different skills to different levels; strategy,
adapting to the opponent's moves on the fly, quick reactions.
Even esports involve some physical conditioning - I've heard
people in their mid-20s complain that they're over-the-hill
for some twitch games, no longer have the fast reactions
needed to play at the highest level, and have to spend time
training to improve their speed.
As for the physicality of e-"sports," I guess that could
put them on the level of certain games: billiards, pool,
snooker, darts, even golf - where one doesn't have to be
an otherwise extraordinary physical specimen to perform
at world-class levels.
Have you actually watched any professional e-sports? Few humans have
the physical capability of competing at the highest levels. The
reflexes needed are special and they can do an amazing number of
actions per minute. At the high levels, it's not just training.
I find it hard to know what criteria could be used to deny it's a
sport.

Chris
Ninapenda Jibini
2018-03-09 03:55:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Buckley
On Thursday, March 8, 2018 at 10:45:02 AM UTC-5, Peter Trei
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Kevrob
On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 2:06:33 PM UTC-5, Jibini Kula
Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote: s this football, baseball or
hockey you're
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
talking about?
(Almost serious. I find sports more boring than most
televsion. The only thing more boring than athletic sports
is esports.)
--
Baseball, mostly, though there are New York Football Giants,
and there used to be both Brooklyn Dodger and New York
Yankee football teams.
Esports are to actual sports as
an Avalon Hill game is to an actual battle.
The same could be said of chess and war.
I don't think that invalidates chess, or esports.
The all test different skills to different levels; strategy,
adapting to the opponent's moves on the fly, quick reactions.
Even esports involve some physical conditioning - I've heard
people in their mid-20s complain that they're over-the-hill
for some twitch games, no longer have the fast reactions
needed to play at the highest level, and have to spend time
training to improve their speed.
As for the physicality of e-"sports," I guess that could
put them on the level of certain games: billiards, pool,
snooker, darts, even golf - where one doesn't have to be
an otherwise extraordinary physical specimen to perform
at world-class levels.
Have you actually watched any professional e-sports? Few humans
have the physical capability of competing at the highest levels.
The reflexes needed are special and they can do an amazing
number of actions per minute. At the high levels, it's not just
training. I find it hard to know what criteria could be used to
deny it's a sport.
The only criteria that matters: "I don't like it."

By which criteria, so far as I'm concerned, football and baseball
aren't sports.
--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Kevrob
2018-03-09 03:58:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Buckley
Have you actually watched any professional e-sports? Few humans have
the physical capability of competing at the highest levels. The
reflexes needed are special and they can do an amazing number of
actions per minute. At the high levels, it's not just training.
I find it hard to know what criteria could be used to deny it's a
sport.
I've played a few arcade video games, going back to Pong,
but I was never seriously into that, nor ever owned a gaming
console nor accoutrements that would make any computer I owned
game-capable. Gaming's never been my thing. I'd have no
interest in watching others do it.

What do you watch, the result on the screen, or the player's
hands on the controller, jabbing and twisting? Can you
learn how to play better watching the experts?

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-09 04:05:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
I've played a few arcade video games, going back to Pong,
but I was never seriously into that, nor ever owned a gaming
console nor accoutrements that would make any computer I owned
game-capable. Gaming's never been my thing. I'd have no
interest in watching others do it.
What do you watch, the result on the screen, or the player's
hands on the controller, jabbing and twisting? Can you
learn how to play better watching the experts?
I don't watch my hands on the keyboard (hate mice, use the
trackball as little as possible); I've been a touch typist for
sixty years. I watch the screen, look at the mobs, their health
bars, glancing periodically at mine and my cat's.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Kevrob
2018-03-09 09:34:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
I've played a few arcade video games, going back to Pong,
but I was never seriously into that, nor ever owned a gaming
console nor accoutrements that would make any computer I owned
game-capable. Gaming's never been my thing. I'd have no
interest in watching others do it.
What do you watch, the result on the screen, or the player's
hands on the controller, jabbing and twisting? Can you
learn how to play better watching the experts?
I don't watch my hands on the keyboard (hate mice, use the
trackball as little as possible); I've been a touch typist for
sixty years. I watch the screen, look at the mobs, their health
bars, glancing periodically at mine and my cat's.
That all makes sense, but that's you playing.

I was asking, what does an "e-sports" spectator watch?
The screen output, or the player's activity on the
equipment? If it's the former, that'd be like just
watching the scoreboard at a live athletic competition.

Are penalty flags thrown if a player uses a cheat code?

Kevin R
Juho Julkunen
2018-03-09 13:27:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
I was asking, what does an "e-sports" spectator watch?
The screen output, or the player's activity on the
equipment? If it's the former, that'd be like just
watching the scoreboard at a live athletic competition.
Or, more accurately, not.

If you are actually interested in the answer, a few seconds of googling
will provide you with actual e-sport feeds to check.
--
Juho Julkunen
Chris Buckley
2018-03-09 18:14:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
I've played a few arcade video games, going back to Pong,
but I was never seriously into that, nor ever owned a gaming
console nor accoutrements that would make any computer I owned
game-capable. Gaming's never been my thing. I'd have no
interest in watching others do it.
What do you watch, the result on the screen, or the player's
hands on the controller, jabbing and twisting? Can you
learn how to play better watching the experts?
I don't watch my hands on the keyboard (hate mice, use the
trackball as little as possible); I've been a touch typist for
sixty years. I watch the screen, look at the mobs, their health
bars, glancing periodically at mine and my cat's.
That all makes sense, but that's you playing.
I was asking, what does an "e-sports" spectator watch?
The screen output, or the player's activity on the
equipment? If it's the former, that'd be like just
watching the scoreboard at a live athletic competition.
You watch the results of the player's actions, just as you watch a
javelin or discus. These are (almost always) head-to-head fights as
each player or team tries to conquer the other team, in whatever
environment they are both playing in.

I've talked a bit about e-sports with my Chinese table tennis coach, who
says there's a lot more money for e-sports players (and commentators) than
there is for table tennis players in China!

I'm currently reading a Chinese web-novel about an e-sports player.
It's actually quite enjoyable (I have problems with other Chinese
books such as the wuxia web-novels I've read). It probably helps if you
have some MMORPG experience.
https://www.webnovel.com/book/7176992105000305/The-King's-Avatar

Warning, it's still being translated - about 60% done (973 out of
~1700 chapters, about 8000 pages so far, 12 new chapters per week).
It's an interesting funding model, that seems to be working quite
well. It's currently a combination of patreon, payment for bonus
chapters, and advertising.

Chris
Cryptoengineer
2018-03-10 04:22:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I've played a few arcade video games, going back to Pong, but I was
never seriously into that, nor ever owned a gaming console nor
accoutrements that would make any computer I owned game-capable.
Gaming's never been my thing. I'd have no interest in watching
others do it.
What do you watch, the result on the screen, or the player's
hands on the controller, jabbing and twisting? Can you learn how
to play better watching the experts?
I don't watch my hands on the keyboard (hate mice, use the
trackball as little as possible); I've been a touch typist for
sixty years. I watch the screen, look at the mobs, their health
bars, glancing periodically at mine and my cat's.
That all makes sense, but that's you playing.
I was asking, what does an "e-sports" spectator watch?
The screen output, or the player's activity on the
equipment? If it's the former, that'd be like just watching the
scoreboard at a live athletic competition.
You watch the results of the player's actions, just as you watch a
javelin or discus. These are (almost always) head-to-head fights as
each player or team tries to conquer the other team, in whatever
environment they are both playing in.
I'm sitting here watching the news on CBS, and they had an e-sports
segment. The story was (still) along the lines of 'yes this is a thing',
but pointed out that among the under 30 demographic, its about as
popular as watching NFL football.

pt
Robert Carnegie
2018-03-10 08:18:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I've played a few arcade video games, going back to Pong, but I was
never seriously into that, nor ever owned a gaming console nor
accoutrements that would make any computer I owned game-capable.
Gaming's never been my thing. I'd have no interest in watching
others do it.
What do you watch, the result on the screen, or the player's
hands on the controller, jabbing and twisting? Can you learn how
to play better watching the experts?
I don't watch my hands on the keyboard (hate mice, use the
trackball as little as possible); I've been a touch typist for
sixty years. I watch the screen, look at the mobs, their health
bars, glancing periodically at mine and my cat's.
That all makes sense, but that's you playing.
I was asking, what does an "e-sports" spectator watch?
The screen output, or the player's activity on the
equipment? If it's the former, that'd be like just watching the
scoreboard at a live athletic competition.
You watch the results of the player's actions, just as you watch a
javelin or discus. These are (almost always) head-to-head fights as
each player or team tries to conquer the other team, in whatever
environment they are both playing in.
I'm sitting here watching the news on CBS, and they had an e-sports
segment. The story was (still) along the lines of 'yes this is a thing',
but pointed out that among the under 30 demographic, its about as
popular as watching NFL football.
Unless thety meant how popular it is in terms of players...
but that would be lot more.

Or, people ho play full time and do nothing else? Maybe
still more - if you don't count only people ho get paid
for it.

Come to think, there are even people who play online video
games where e.g. they can slay the dragon, win the treasure,
and pick out the enchanted swords and singed armour -
to sell for actual cash to other players. Although this
may be legally against the game's rules, and the professional
adventurers probably don't want to have people watching.
J. Clarke
2018-03-10 12:03:45 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 10 Mar 2018 00:18:02 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I've played a few arcade video games, going back to Pong, but I was
never seriously into that, nor ever owned a gaming console nor
accoutrements that would make any computer I owned game-capable.
Gaming's never been my thing. I'd have no interest in watching
others do it.
What do you watch, the result on the screen, or the player's
hands on the controller, jabbing and twisting? Can you learn how
to play better watching the experts?
I don't watch my hands on the keyboard (hate mice, use the
trackball as little as possible); I've been a touch typist for
sixty years. I watch the screen, look at the mobs, their health
bars, glancing periodically at mine and my cat's.
That all makes sense, but that's you playing.
I was asking, what does an "e-sports" spectator watch?
The screen output, or the player's activity on the
equipment? If it's the former, that'd be like just watching the
scoreboard at a live athletic competition.
You watch the results of the player's actions, just as you watch a
javelin or discus. These are (almost always) head-to-head fights as
each player or team tries to conquer the other team, in whatever
environment they are both playing in.
I'm sitting here watching the news on CBS, and they had an e-sports
segment. The story was (still) along the lines of 'yes this is a thing',
but pointed out that among the under 30 demographic, its about as
popular as watching NFL football.
Unless thety meant how popular it is in terms of players...
but that would be lot more.
https://www.twitch.tv/
Post by Robert Carnegie
Or, people ho play full time and do nothing else? Maybe
still more - if you don't count only people ho get paid
for it.
Come to think, there are even people who play online video
games where e.g. they can slay the dragon, win the treasure,
and pick out the enchanted swords and singed armour -
to sell for actual cash to other players. Although this
may be legally against the game's rules, and the professional
adventurers probably don't want to have people watching.
On the order of 3/4 million viewers at 7 AM on a Saturday morning with
no notable tournaments going on.
Quadibloc
2018-03-11 06:18:27 UTC
Permalink
Well, perhaps the one used to exclude the competitive activity in which
such individuals as Magnus Carlson, Vishwanathan Anand, and Gary Kasparov
excel. They, too, are beyond ordinary mortals, just not in a particularly athletic way
Michael F. Stemper
2018-03-07 23:54:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Got to have been the New Yorker. The Jints played on Manhattan,
on Coogan's Bluff, just the other side of the Harlem River from
The Temple of Evil, or its modern replacement. :)
I had no idea that "Coogan's Bluff" was the name of a real bluff.
I have a Clint Eastwood movie, in which he plays a deputy from
Arizona or New Mexico who comes to NYC for a fugitive pickup.
The deputy's family name is "Coogan".

Now I have to look up the (geological) bluff and re-watch
the movie.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Deuteronomy 10:18-19
a425couple
2018-03-07 17:44:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by a425couple
Post by C. E. Gee
Aphelion Webzine, in their Flash Fiction Department has
published “Trojan Truth” by C.E. Gee. --
The Greeks were not the heroes in the Trojan War,
they were the villains.
Oh Yeah!
Kidnappers, rapists & losers.
Well, what I'd like to know, is why the name 'Troy'
is popularly used (for towns, colleges etc.)
and why the nick name 'trojans' are often used for
sports teams?
People who read the Aenead must have chosen that.
"Spartans" is pretty popular, too.
Post by a425couple
They lost.
And what did they do to improve the world?
What good ideals did they represent?
What did they ever do for USC football?
How come we have no teams named for the Carthaginians?
How about the Visgoths?
Athenieans?
Mt St Mary's, in LA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_St._Mary%27s_University_(Los_Angeles)
All-women university.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_League
along with Delphian and Corintian leagues.
Was there a Sapphic Softball league? :)
Post by a425couple
Persians? Goths?
Ostrogoths on the east coast?
Visigoths on the west?
Post by a425couple
Huns?
Minor league baseball team in PA, late 19th Century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenandoah_Huns
Post by a425couple
Franks? Slavs? Saxons?
Alfred_University, Alfred NY.
Loara HS CA,
North Torrance HS CA,
Schaumburg HS IL,
Hastings HS MI
(The Saxons lost that one,
I wonder why they aren't the Normans?)
Beverly Hills HS, CA
(But if "Norman" was an especially ferocious
Hollywood agent....)
Post by a425couple
Hittites?
Some college should be the Jutes.
Their basketball team could be the Jumpin' Jutes.
Post by a425couple
(Yes, yes, I do realize Vikings and Vandals are
properly remembered.)
Wayne State in Cleveland used to be The Tartars.
El Camino College, Compton CA still are.
There's a Ukranian ice hockey team that goes by
"Cossacks" - Vinnytski Haidamaky
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnytski_Haidamaky
Granville High School in NY State are "the Golden Horde"
I'm all for renaming the Los Angeles National League
baseball team "the Moguls."
The Dodgers is a name, of, for, and by Brooklyn.
Kevin R
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_sports_team_and_mascot_names#Vandals
http://sportsnicknames.wikia.com/wiki/Sports_Nicknames_Wiki
Really cool & informative response! I thank you.
Kevrob
2018-03-07 18:06:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by a425couple
Post by Kevrob
People who read the Aenead must have chosen that.
"Spartans" is pretty popular, too.......
...........<snippety-snip!>.................................
Post by a425couple
Post by Kevrob
The Dodgers is a name, of, for, and by Brooklyn.
Kevin R
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_sports_team_and_mascot_names#Vandals
http://sportsnicknames.wikia.com/wiki/Sports_Nicknames_Wiki
Really cool & informative response! I thank you.
You are welcome. It was fun finding out what I didn't already know.

Kevin R
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