Time dilation as a story element

[D B Davis]

There's got to be a hundred stories that use time dilation as a story
element. Here's how _Perry Rhodan #8 The Galatic Riddle_ uses it:

The African Ras Tschubai walked twoard Rhodan, who was
the first to leave the wire cage.
"Back so soon, sir?"
Rhodan felt perplexed. "Soon? What is that supposed to
mean, Ras?"
"You were hardly gone, just five minutes, sir."
Rohdan peered into the African's eyes. He tried to
hide his surprise. He said calmly: "Let's compare our
watches, Ras."
The teleporter glanced at his wristwatch. "Exactly
10:30 Terran standard time, sir."
Rhodan slowly lifted his arm. He looked at his
chronometer. Just what he had thought. The hands pointed
to 14:25 o'clock.
"You had hardly left when the robot reappeared. He
He teleported himself back to the base via matter
transmitter and returned within three minutes with little
Betty. He has hardly come back to the crypt again. Less
than a minute.

End notes.

1. The chronometer on my wrist is set to 24 hour military time, as is
every other chronometer in my house.

2. It's time to take a break from space opera. My next novel is
_The Year of the Intern_ (Cook).

3. One of my custom book shelves holds more than hundred Perry
Rhodan's and dozens of Cooks. It's going to take a while to read
them all.

✍

Thank you,

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by D B Davis
There's got to be a hundred stories that use time dilation as a story
The African Ras Tschubai walked twoard Rhodan, who was
the first to leave the wire cage.
"Back so soon, sir?"
Rhodan felt perplexed. "Soon? What is that supposed to
mean, Ras?"
"You were hardly gone, just five minutes, sir."
Rohdan peered into the African's eyes. He tried to
hide his surprise. He said calmly: "Let's compare our
watches, Ras."
The teleporter glanced at his wristwatch. "Exactly
10:30 Terran standard time, sir."
Rhodan slowly lifted his arm. He looked at his
chronometer. Just what he had thought. The hands pointed
to 14:25 o'clock.
"You had hardly left when the robot reappeared. He
He teleported himself back to the base via matter
transmitter and returned within three minutes with little
Betty. He has hardly come back to the crypt again. Less
than a minute.
End notes.
1. The chronometer on my wrist is set to 24 hour military time, as is
every other chronometer in my house.
2. It's time to take a break from space opera. My next novel is
_The Year of the Intern_ (Cook).
3. One of my custom book shelves holds more than hundred Perry
Rhodan's and dozens of Cooks. It's going to take a while to read
them all.
✍
Thank you,
--
Don

Time dilation will play a big role (though not a spoiler role) in
# 24, _Infinity Flight_ as well. (And somehow I pulled that issue
number out of my mind 40 years later, though I did have the title wrong).

[D B Davis]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by D B Davis
There's got to be a hundred stories that use time dilation as a story
The African Ras Tschubai walked twoard Rhodan, who was
the first to leave the wire cage.
"Back so soon, sir?"
Rhodan felt perplexed. "Soon? What is that supposed to
mean, Ras?"
"You were hardly gone, just five minutes, sir."
Rohdan peered into the African's eyes. He tried to
hide his surprise. He said calmly: "Let's compare our
watches, Ras."
The teleporter glanced at his wristwatch. "Exactly
10:30 Terran standard time, sir."
Rhodan slowly lifted his arm. He looked at his
chronometer. Just what he had thought. The hands pointed
to 14:25 o'clock.
"You had hardly left when the robot reappeared. He
He teleported himself back to the base via matter
transmitter and returned within three minutes with little
Betty. He has hardly come back to the crypt again. Less
than a minute.

Time dilation will play a big role (though not a spoiler role) in
# 24, _Infinity Flight_ as well. (And somehow I pulled that issue
number out of my mind 40 years later, though I did have the title wrong).

It also plays a role in #56, _Prisoner of Time_. That's the first PR
read by me, that served as a guinea pig to see if the series would work
for me, which it indeed does.
Knowing ahead of time that there's no end to the story takes the
pressure off to finish the story and makes it more enjoyable to read a
little or read a lot, depending upon how the spirit moves me at the
time.

✍

Thank you,

[Wolffan]

Post by D B Davis
There's got to be a hundred stories that use time dilation as a story
The African Ras Tschubai walked twoard Rhodan, who was
the first to leave the wire cage.
"Back so soon, sir?"
Rhodan felt perplexed. "Soon? What is that supposed to
mean, Ras?"
"You were hardly gone, just five minutes, sir."
Rohdan peered into the African's eyes. He tried to
hide his surprise. He said calmly: "Let's compare our
watches, Ras."
The teleporter glanced at his wristwatch. "Exactly
10:30 Terran standard time, sir."
Rhodan slowly lifted his arm. He looked at his
chronometer. Just what he had thought. The hands pointed
to 14:25 o'clock.
"You had hardly left when the robot reappeared. He
He teleported himself back to the base via matter
transmitter and returned within three minutes with little
Betty. He has hardly come back to the crypt again. Less
than a minute.
End notes.
1. The chronometer on my wrist is set to 24 hour military time, as is
every other chronometer in my house.
2. It's time to take a break from space opera. My next novel is
_The Year of the Intern_ (Cook).
3. One of my custom book shelves holds more than hundred Perry
Rhodan's and dozens of Cooks. It's going to take a while to read
them all.
✍
Thank you,

feh.

There are _songs_ about time dilation.

"In the year of '39 assembled here the Volunteers In the days when lands were
few
Here the ship sailed out into the blue and sunny morn
The sweetest sight ever seen.

And the night followed day
And the story tellers say
That the score brave souls inside
For many a lonely day sailed across the milky seas
Never looked back, never feared, never cried.

Don't you hear my call though you're many years away
Don't you hear me calling you
Write your letters in the sand
For the day I take your hand
In the land that our grandchildren knew.

In the year of '39 came a ship in from the blue
The volunteers came home that day
And they bring good news of a world so newly born
Though their hearts so heavily weigh

For the earth is old and grey, little darling we'll away
But my love this cannot be
For so many years have gone though I'm older but a year
Your mother's eyes from your eyes cry to me.

Don't you hear my call though you're many years away
Don't you hear me calling you
Write your letters in the sand
For the day I take your hand
In the land that our grandchildren knew.

Don't you hear my call though you're many years away
Don't you hear me calling you
All your letters in the sand cannot heal me like your hand

For my life
Still ahead
Pity Me."

[Jerry Brown]

Post by Wolffan

Post by D B Davis
There's got to be a hundred stories that use time dilation as a story
The African Ras Tschubai walked twoard Rhodan, who was
the first to leave the wire cage.
"Back so soon, sir?"
Rhodan felt perplexed. "Soon? What is that supposed to
mean, Ras?"
"You were hardly gone, just five minutes, sir."
Rohdan peered into the African's eyes. He tried to
hide his surprise. He said calmly: "Let's compare our
watches, Ras."
The teleporter glanced at his wristwatch. "Exactly
10:30 Terran standard time, sir."
Rhodan slowly lifted his arm. He looked at his
chronometer. Just what he had thought. The hands pointed
to 14:25 o'clock.
"You had hardly left when the robot reappeared. He
He teleported himself back to the base via matter
transmitter and returned within three minutes with little
Betty. He has hardly come back to the crypt again. Less
than a minute.
End notes.
1. The chronometer on my wrist is set to 24 hour military time, as is
every other chronometer in my house.
2. It's time to take a break from space opera. My next novel is
_The Year of the Intern_ (Cook).
3. One of my custom book shelves holds more than hundred Perry
Rhodan's and dozens of Cooks. It's going to take a while to read
them all.
?
Thank you,

feh.
There are _songs_ about time dilation.

<snip example>

And then there's a coupleo f references in the theme song to John
Carpenter's "Dark Star":

A million suns shine down
But I see only one
When I think I'm over you
I find I've just begun
The years move faster than the days
There's no warmth in the light
How I miss those desert skies
Your cool touch in the night

Benson, Arizona, blew warm wind through your hair
My body flies the galaxy, my heart longs to be there
Benson, Arizona, the same stars in the sky
But they seemed so much kinder when we watched them, you and I

Now the years pull us apart
I'm young and now you're old
But you're still in my heart
And the memory won't grow cold
I dream of times and spaces
I left far behind
Where we spent our last few days
Benson's on my mind

Benson, Arizona, blew warm wind through your hair
My body flies the galaxy, my heart longs to be there
Benson, Arizona, the same stars in the sky
But they seemed so much kinder when we watched them, you and I

[Butch Malahide]

Post by Wolffan

Post by D B Davis
There's got to be a hundred stories that use time dilation as a story
The African Ras Tschubai walked twoard Rhodan, who was
the first to leave the wire cage.
"Back so soon, sir?"
Rhodan felt perplexed. "Soon? What is that supposed to
mean, Ras?"
"You were hardly gone, just five minutes, sir."
Rohdan peered into the African's eyes. He tried to
hide his surprise. He said calmly: "Let's compare our
watches, Ras."
The teleporter glanced at his wristwatch. "Exactly
10:30 Terran standard time, sir."
Rhodan slowly lifted his arm. He looked at his
chronometer. Just what he had thought. The hands pointed
to 14:25 o'clock.
"You had hardly left when the robot reappeared. He
He teleported himself back to the base via matter
transmitter and returned within three minutes with little
Betty. He has hardly come back to the crypt again. Less
than a minute.
End notes.
1. The chronometer on my wrist is set to 24 hour military time, as is
every other chronometer in my house.
2. It's time to take a break from space opera. My next novel is
_The Year of the Intern_ (Cook).
3. One of my custom book shelves holds more than hundred Perry
Rhodan's and dozens of Cooks. It's going to take a while to read
them all.
✍
Thank you,

feh.
There are _songs_ about time dilation.
"In the year of '39 assembled here the Volunteers In the days when lands were
few
Here the ship sailed out into the blue and sunny morn
The sweetest sight ever seen.
And the night followed day
And the story tellers say
That the score brave souls inside
For many a lonely day sailed across the milky seas
Never looked back, never feared, never cried.
Don't you hear my call though you're many years away
Don't you hear me calling you
Write your letters in the sand
For the day I take your hand
In the land that our grandchildren knew.
In the year of '39 came a ship in from the blue
The volunteers came home that day
And they bring good news of a world so newly born
Though their hearts so heavily weigh
For the earth is old and grey, little darling we'll away
But my love this cannot be
For so many years have gone though I'm older but a year
Your mother's eyes from your eyes cry to me.
Don't you hear my call though you're many years away
Don't you hear me calling you
Write your letters in the sand
For the day I take your hand
In the land that our grandchildren knew.
Don't you hear my call though you're many years away
Don't you hear me calling you
All your letters in the sand cannot heal me like your hand
For my life
Still ahead
Pity Me."

"Out Around Rigel" by Robert H. Wilson, an early time
dilation story.

"To the Stars" (aka "Return to Tomorrow") by L. Ron
Hubbard includes a song called "Voyage" which includes
the following verses:

A full ten times a hundred years
Will pass as on we run
A full ten times a hundred years
Earth spins around the Sun.

Then back we'll be with ore and gem
Enough a town to buy
The Hound but six months older then
For only planets die.

https://archive.org/details/Astounding_v45n01_1950-03_cape1736/page/n91

[Butch Malahide]

Post by Butch Malahide

Post by Wolffan

Post by D B Davis
There's got to be a hundred stories that use time dilation as a story
The African Ras Tschubai walked twoard Rhodan, who was
the first to leave the wire cage.
"Back so soon, sir?"
Rhodan felt perplexed. "Soon? What is that supposed to
mean, Ras?"
"You were hardly gone, just five minutes, sir."
Rohdan peered into the African's eyes. He tried to
hide his surprise. He said calmly: "Let's compare our
watches, Ras."
The teleporter glanced at his wristwatch. "Exactly
10:30 Terran standard time, sir."
Rhodan slowly lifted his arm. He looked at his
chronometer. Just what he had thought. The hands pointed
to 14:25 o'clock.
"You had hardly left when the robot reappeared. He
He teleported himself back to the base via matter
transmitter and returned within three minutes with little
Betty. He has hardly come back to the crypt again. Less
than a minute.
End notes.
1. The chronometer on my wrist is set to 24 hour military time, as is
every other chronometer in my house.
2. It's time to take a break from space opera. My next novel is
_The Year of the Intern_ (Cook).
3. One of my custom book shelves holds more than hundred Perry
Rhodan's and dozens of Cooks. It's going to take a while to read
them all.
✍
Thank you,

feh.
There are _songs_ about time dilation.
"In the year of '39 assembled here the Volunteers In the days when lands were
few
Here the ship sailed out into the blue and sunny morn
The sweetest sight ever seen.
And the night followed day
And the story tellers say
That the score brave souls inside
For many a lonely day sailed across the milky seas
Never looked back, never feared, never cried.
Don't you hear my call though you're many years away
Don't you hear me calling you
Write your letters in the sand
For the day I take your hand
In the land that our grandchildren knew.
In the year of '39 came a ship in from the blue
The volunteers came home that day
And they bring good news of a world so newly born
Though their hearts so heavily weigh
For the earth is old and grey, little darling we'll away
But my love this cannot be
For so many years have gone though I'm older but a year
Your mother's eyes from your eyes cry to me.
Don't you hear my call though you're many years away
Don't you hear me calling you
Write your letters in the sand
For the day I take your hand
In the land that our grandchildren knew.
Don't you hear my call though you're many years away
Don't you hear me calling you
All your letters in the sand cannot heal me like your hand
For my life
Still ahead
Pity Me."

"Out Around Rigel" by Robert H. Wilson, an early time
dilation story.
"To the Stars" (aka "Return to Tomorrow") by L. Ron
Hubbard includes a song called "Voyage" which includes
A full ten times a hundred years
Will pass as on we run
A full ten times a hundred years
Earth spins around the Sun.
Then back we'll be with ore and gem
Enough a town to buy
The Hound but six months older then
For only planets die.
https://archive.org/details/Astounding_v45n01_1950-03_cape1736/page/n91

"Stars, Won't You Hide Me?" by Ben Bova has a lot of time
dilation, but the song came before the story.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by D B Davis
There's got to be a hundred stories that use time dilation as a story
element.

None more so than Poul Anderson's _Tau Zero_, I would guess.

[Kevrob]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by D B Davis
There's got to be a hundred stories that use time dilation as a story
element.

None more so than Poul Anderson's _Tau Zero_, I would guess.

Nobody has mentioned "Time for the Stars" by Heinlein.

https://www.sfsite.com/12b/tf238.htm

Kevin R

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

Post by Kevrob

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by D B Davis
There's got to be a hundred stories that use time dilation as a story
element.

None more so than Poul Anderson's _Tau Zero_, I would guess.

And his "To Outlive Eternity" short.

Post by Kevrob
Nobody has mentioned "Time for the Stars" by Heinlein.
https://www.sfsite.com/12b/tf238.htm

The story that got me interested in theoretical physics, indeed!

_A World Out Of Time_, Niven, plus his other Rammer/Leshy Circuit
stories, since they were based around Bussard ramjets. And Phsspok's
journey, though it was incidental.

_The Gold at Starbow's End_, Pohl.

Cheers - Jaimie

[Greg Goss]

Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh

Post by Kevrob

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by D B Davis
There's got to be a hundred stories that use time dilation as a story
element.

None more so than Poul Anderson's _Tau Zero_, I would guess.

And his "To Outlive Eternity" short.

Post by Kevrob
Nobody has mentioned "Time for the Stars" by Heinlein.
https://www.sfsite.com/12b/tf238.htm

The story that got me interested in theoretical physics, indeed!
_A World Out Of Time_, Niven, plus his other Rammer/Leshy Circuit
stories, since they were based around Bussard ramjets. And Phsspok's
journey, though it was incidental.
_The Gold at Starbow's End_, Pohl.

I don't know if anyone's mentioned Varley's short "The Pusher" yet

[Steve Dodds]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by D B Davis
There's got to be a hundred stories that use time dilation as a story
element.

None more so than Poul Anderson's _Tau Zero_, I would guess.

There is the long view stories by F.M. Busby which is about holding an
interstellar empire together without FTL. Stars are decades, sometimes
centuries apart.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by D B Davis
There's got to be a hundred stories that use time dilation as a story
element.

None more so than Poul Anderson's _Tau Zero_, I would guess.

_Planet of the Apes_?

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by D B Davis
There's got to be a hundred stories that use time dilation as a story
element.

None more so than Poul Anderson's _Tau Zero_, I would guess.

_Planet of the Apes_?

The 1960s movie, yes. From what I understand the original French book,
no. The first reboot movie with Mark Whalburg was flat out time travel.
The recent trilogy didn't even involve space flight.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by D B Davis
There's got to be a hundred stories that use time dilation as a story
element.

_Planet of the Apes_?

The 1960s movie, yes. From what I understand the original French book,
no.

Si. In Pierre Boulle's novel, the protagonists travel to the distant
planet Soror, encounter the ape-dominated culture there, then travel
back to Earth, arriving a long time after they left, and find that
Earth is now also ruled by apes.

"I'll venture out on a limb: This novel is crap. Maybe it is intended
as a parable, but whatever it is the author is trying to tell me,
I sure don't get it."
http://home.pages.de/~naddy/reviews/LaPlaneteDesSinges.html

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by D B Davis
There's got to be a hundred stories that use time dilation as a story
element.

_Planet of the Apes_?

The 1960s movie, yes. From what I understand the original French book,
no.

Si. In Pierre Boulle's novel, the protagonists travel to the distant
planet Soror, encounter the ape-dominated culture there, then travel
back to Earth, arriving a long time after they left, and find that
Earth is now also ruled by apes.
"I'll venture out on a limb: This novel is crap. Maybe it is intended
as a parable, but whatever it is the author is trying to tell me,
I sure don't get it."
http://home.pages.de/~naddy/reviews/LaPlaneteDesSinges.html

So... after seeing this and reading the wikipedia article, I remember a
short story with a similar theme. I remember a line about how silly the
idea was about humans being capable of speech, and another about the
female ape powdering her muzzle while flying a light sail. Does this
ring any bells?

[Mike Spencer]

Post by Joe Pfeiffer
So... after seeing this and reading the wikipedia article, I remember a
short story with a similar theme. I remember a line about how silly the
idea was about humans being capable of speech, and another about the
female ape powdering her muzzle while flying a light sail. Does this
ring any bells?

I remember a short story in which the protagonist is on a bus along
with a scientist (?) carrying some weird experimental chemical.
Apocalypse happens while the bus is in a tunnel, passengers exposed to
the chemical, protagonist awakens millennia later to a world run by
ape civilization in which only artifacts of human domination are the
very most durable, e.g. the ceramic part of a spark plug.

Just life suspension, no time dilation. I always assumed that Planet
of the Apes was spun off from that but ICBW.

[p***@hotmail.com]

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Joe Pfeiffer
So... after seeing this and reading the wikipedia article, I remember a
short story with a similar theme. I remember a line about how silly the
idea was about humans being capable of speech, and another about the
female ape powdering her muzzle while flying a light sail. Does this
ring any bells?

I remember a short story in which the protagonist is on a bus along
with a scientist (?) carrying some weird experimental chemical.
Apocalypse happens while the bus is in a tunnel, passengers exposed to
the chemical, protagonist awakens millennia later to a world run by
ape civilization in which only artifacts of human domination are the
very most durable, e.g. the ceramic part of a spark plug.
Just life suspension, no time dilation. I always assumed that Planet
of the Apes was spun off from that but ICBW.

This may be _Genus Homo_(1941) by Lyon Sprague de Camp and
Peter Schuyler Miller. This is the same Miller who did
the book reviews for _Astounding_ and _Analog_.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Joe Pfeiffer

Post by Scott Lurndal
_Planet of the Apes_?

So... after seeing this and reading the wikipedia article, I remember a
short story with a similar theme. I remember a line about how silly the
idea was about humans being capable of speech, and another about the
female ape powdering her muzzle while flying a light sail. Does this
ring any bells?

That's the framing device of Boulle's novel. The ape couple on
their space yacht pick up a message in a bottle with the story of
the human travelers.

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Joe Pfeiffer

Post by Scott Lurndal
_Planet of the Apes_?

So... after seeing this and reading the wikipedia article, I remember a
short story with a similar theme. I remember a line about how silly the
idea was about humans being capable of speech, and another about the
female ape powdering her muzzle while flying a light sail. Does this
ring any bells?

That's the framing device of Boulle's novel. The ape couple on
their space yacht pick up a message in a bottle with the story of
the human travelers.

Weird that I only seem to remember the framing device, and not the rest
of the novel! Thanks

[Michael F. Stemper]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by D B Davis
There's got to be a hundred stories that use time dilation as a story
element.

None more so than Poul Anderson's _Tau Zero_, I would guess.

His short story, "Epilogue", comes within a few orders of magnitude.

[David DeLaney]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by D B Davis
There's got to be a hundred stories that use time dilation as a story
element.

None more so than Poul Anderson's _Tau Zero_, I would guess.

I agree, though John C Wright's six-book Eschaton sequence comes pretty close.

Dave, I'll wait while people flinch

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by D B Davis
There's got to be a hundred stories that use time dilation as a story
The African Ras Tschubai walked twoard Rhodan, who was
the first to leave the wire cage.
"Back so soon, sir?"
Rhodan felt perplexed. "Soon? What is that supposed to
mean, Ras?"
"You were hardly gone, just five minutes, sir."
Rohdan peered into the African's eyes. He tried to
hide his surprise. He said calmly: "Let's compare our
watches, Ras."
The teleporter glanced at his wristwatch. "Exactly
10:30 Terran standard time, sir."
Rhodan slowly lifted his arm. He looked at his
chronometer. Just what he had thought. The hands pointed
to 14:25 o'clock.
"You had hardly left when the robot reappeared. He
He teleported himself back to the base via matter
transmitter and returned within three minutes with little
Betty. He has hardly come back to the crypt again. Less
than a minute.
End notes.
1. The chronometer on my wrist is set to 24 hour military time, as is
every other chronometer in my house.
2. It's time to take a break from space opera. My next novel is
_The Year of the Intern_ (Cook).
3. One of my custom book shelves holds more than hundred Perry
Rhodan's and dozens of Cooks. It's going to take a while to read
them all.
✍
Thank you,

Time Dilation is a significant problem for the Von Neumann star ships in
the Bobiverse as they race to colonize the star systems.
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680587/

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by D B Davis
There's got to be a hundred stories that use time dilation as a story
         The African Ras Tschubai walked twoard Rhodan, who was
     the first to leave the wire cage.
         "Back so soon, sir?"
         Rhodan felt perplexed. "Soon? What is that supposed to
     mean, Ras?"
         "You were hardly gone, just five minutes, sir."
         Rohdan peered into the African's eyes. He tried to
     hide his surprise. He said calmly: "Let's compare our
     watches, Ras."
         The teleporter glanced at his wristwatch. "Exactly
     10:30 Terran standard time, sir."
         Rhodan slowly lifted his arm. He looked at his
     chronometer. Just what he had thought. The hands pointed
     to 14:25 o'clock.
         "You had hardly left when the robot reappeared. He
     He teleported himself back to the base via matter
     transmitter and returned within three minutes with little
     Betty. He has hardly come back to the crypt again. Less
     than a minute.
End notes.
1. The chronometer on my wrist is set to 24 hour military time, as is
    every other chronometer in my house.
2. It's time to take a break from space opera. My next novel is
    _The Year of the Intern_ (Cook).
3. One of my custom book shelves holds more than hundred Perry
    Rhodan's and dozens of Cooks. It's going to take a while to read
    them all.
✍
Thank you,

Time Dilation is a significant problem for the Von Neumann star ships in
the Bobiverse as they race to colonize the star systems.
   https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680587/
Lynn

I forgot to mention that the Von Neumann space ships do not have FTL drives.

Lynn

[m***@sky.com]

Post by D B Davis
There's got to be a hundred stories that use time dilation as a story
The African Ras Tschubai walked twoard Rhodan, who was
the first to leave the wire cage.
"Back so soon, sir?"
Rhodan felt perplexed. "Soon? What is that supposed to
mean, Ras?"
"You were hardly gone, just five minutes, sir."
Rohdan peered into the African's eyes. He tried to
hide his surprise. He said calmly: "Let's compare our
watches, Ras."
The teleporter glanced at his wristwatch. "Exactly
10:30 Terran standard time, sir."
Rhodan slowly lifted his arm. He looked at his
chronometer. Just what he had thought. The hands pointed
to 14:25 o'clock.
"You had hardly left when the robot reappeared. He
He teleported himself back to the base via matter
transmitter and returned within three minutes with little
Betty. He has hardly come back to the crypt again. Less
than a minute.
End notes.
1. The chronometer on my wrist is set to 24 hour military time, as is
every other chronometer in my house.
2. It's time to take a break from space opera. My next novel is
_The Year of the Intern_ (Cook).
3. One of my custom book shelves holds more than hundred Perry
Rhodan's and dozens of Cooks. It's going to take a while to read
them all.
✍
Thank you,
--
Don

It could as well be cryo-sleep as time dilation but I have "The Necklace" as a prologue to "Rocannon's World" by Ursula LeGuin. An young aristocratic wife living in genteel poverty in a low-tech planet goes on what amounts to a quest for the return of a necklace given to hi-tech star travellers. The star travellers are happy to return the necklace, but she doesn't realise that the journey between stars will cause her to return long after the death of the husband she sought to please with the necklace.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by m***@sky.com
It could as well be cryo-sleep as time dilation but I have "The Necklace" as a prologue to "Rocannon's World" by Ursula LeGuin.

Stanisław Lem, _Powrót z gwiazd_ (Return from the Stars), 1961.
An astronaut returns after a century-plus long mission and wanders
an Earth that has become incomprehensibly alien to him (and the
reader).

It's one of the slew of Lem's novels that consider contact with
aliens impossible because they are just too different, and in this
case it's our own future that has become alien.

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by m***@sky.com
It could as well be cryo-sleep as time dilation but I have "The Necklace" as a prologue to "Rocannon's World" by Ursula LeGuin.

Stanisław Lem, _Powrót z gwiazd_ (Return from the Stars), 1961.
An astronaut returns after a century-plus long mission and wanders
an Earth that has become incomprehensibly alien to him (and the
reader).
It's one of the slew of Lem's novels that consider contact with
aliens impossible because they are just too different, and in this
case it's our own future that has become alien.

"The Werewolf Principle" by Clifford D. Simak

https://www.amazon.com/Werewolf-Principle-Clifford-D-Simak-ebook/dp/B00YTFT9ZE/

"Many centuries in the future, a two-hundred-year-old man is discovered
hibernating in a space capsule orbiting a distant star. Transported back
to his home planet, Andrew Blake awakens to an Earth he does not
recognize—a world of flying cars and sentient floating houses—with no
memory whatsoever of his history or purpose."

Lynn

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by m***@sky.com
It could as well be cryo-sleep as time dilation but I have "The Necklace" as a prologue to "Rocannon's World" by Ursula LeGuin.

Stanisław Lem, _Powrót z gwiazd_ (Return from the Stars), 1961.
An astronaut returns after a century-plus long mission and wanders
an Earth that has become incomprehensibly alien to him (and the
reader).
It's one of the slew of Lem's novels that consider contact with
aliens impossible because they are just too different, and in this
case it's our own future that has become alien.
--

That arises in Warren Ellis's _Transmetropolitan_. His future
journalist interviews a twentieth century photographer whose turn
came to be re-embodied from cryogenic sleep, as contractually
required. But the future City is too bizarre for any of the revived
to cope with: I think they live in hostels protected from technology.
But the journalist gives her an old style camera. (He may not tell
her that he has a camera inside his spectacles anyway, I forget.)
Later, this is very useful.

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by m***@sky.com
It could as well be cryo-sleep as time dilation but I have "The Necklace" as a prologue to "Rocannon's World" by Ursula LeGuin.

Stanisław Lem, _Powrót z gwiazd_ (Return from the Stars), 1961.
An astronaut returns after a century-plus long mission and wanders
an Earth that has become incomprehensibly alien to him (and the
reader).
It's one of the slew of Lem's novels that consider contact with
aliens impossible because they are just too different, and in this
case it's our own future that has become alien.
--

That arises in Warren Ellis's _Transmetropolitan_. His future
journalist interviews a twentieth century photographer whose turn
came to be re-embodied from cryogenic sleep, as contractually
required. But the future City is too bizarre for any of the revived
to cope with: I think they live in hostels protected from technology.
But the journalist gives her an old style camera. (He may not tell
her that he has a camera inside his spectacles anyway, I forget.)
Later, this is very useful.

I forgot to mention Judge Dredd's setting of American "Mega-City One",
where people /who live there/ can suffer a mental breakdown of
"Future Shock" at any time, becoming homicidal. It's recognised
by Judges that this is a medical rather than a criminal situation,
for which reason "futsies" are consigned to "kook cubes" instead
of the conventional isolation cell (or getting shot). I don't know
if this is more than a semantic difference.

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by D B Davis
There's got to be a hundred stories that use time dilation as a story
The African Ras Tschubai walked twoard Rhodan, who was
the first to leave the wire cage.
"Back so soon, sir?"
Rhodan felt perplexed. "Soon? What is that supposed to
mean, Ras?"
"You were hardly gone, just five minutes, sir."
Rohdan peered into the African's eyes. He tried to
hide his surprise. He said calmly: "Let's compare our
watches, Ras."
The teleporter glanced at his wristwatch. "Exactly
10:30 Terran standard time, sir."
Rhodan slowly lifted his arm. He looked at his
chronometer. Just what he had thought. The hands pointed
to 14:25 o'clock.
"You had hardly left when the robot reappeared. He
He teleported himself back to the base via matter
transmitter and returned within three minutes with little
Betty. He has hardly come back to the crypt again. Less
than a minute.
End notes.
1. The chronometer on my wrist is set to 24 hour military time, as is
every other chronometer in my house.
2. It's time to take a break from space opera. My next novel is
_The Year of the Intern_ (Cook).
3. One of my custom book shelves holds more than hundred Perry
Rhodan's and dozens of Cooks. It's going to take a while to read
them all.
✍
Thank you,

And of course, Joe Haldeman's excellent "The Forever War".
https://www.amazon.com/Forever-War-Joe-Haldeman/dp/0312536631/

Lynn

[Default User]

Ah, here's a YASID on the topic.

A guy is a dissident or something in a repressive society. He is
sentenced to suspended animation of some sort, in a manner that even if
the current government falls no one can bring him out early. The period
is long enough that anyone he knew will be dead.

When he comes out, indeed the old government is gone. To his surprise,
his house is still there. Inside it seems to be virtually unchanged,
although he realizes that most of the furnishings are relicas.

His wife had taken a job working on space transports so time dilation
would keep her alive until he got out.



Brian

[Default User]

Not time dilation, but suspended animation is a plot point in Anne
Leckie's Ancillary series. One of the characters was a ship captain,
and when her ship was destroyed she escaped in a "suspension pod".
Unfortunately her pod wasn't found for a thousand years. The culture
shock was severe.



Brian

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Default User
Not time dilation, but suspended animation is a plot point in Anne
Leckie's Ancillary series. One of the characters was a ship captain,
and when her ship was destroyed she escaped in a "suspension pod".
Unfortunately her pod wasn't found for a thousand years. The culture
shock was severe.
Brian

The same premise (along with Xenophon) starts Campbell's "Lost Fleet"
series.

[Greg Goss]

Post by Default User
Not time dilation, but suspended animation is a plot point in Anne
Leckie's Ancillary series. One of the characters was a ship captain,
and when her ship was destroyed she escaped in a "suspension pod".
Unfortunately her pod wasn't found for a thousand years. The culture
shock was severe.

One of the first Clarke stories I ever read was about a dictator who
went into suspended animation for a carefully timed period before his
return. But the sunrise counters in triplicate all got destroyed by a
minor corner of the war he had been losing. I'm forgetting the
conclusion of the story very very many years later.

[Butch Malahide]

Post by Greg Goss

Post by Default User
Not time dilation, but suspended animation is a plot point in Anne
Leckie's Ancillary series. One of the characters was a ship captain,
and when her ship was destroyed she escaped in a "suspension pod".
Unfortunately her pod wasn't found for a thousand years. The culture
shock was severe.

One of the first Clarke stories I ever read was about a dictator who
went into suspended animation for a carefully timed period before his
return. But the sunrise counters in triplicate all got destroyed by a
minor corner of the war he had been losing. I'm forgetting the
conclusion of the story very very many years later.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

I'm not sure if that was a YASID, but in case anyone wants to know,
the story is "Exile of the Eons" aka "Nemesis".

https://archive.org/stream/Super_Science_Stories_v06n03_1950-03#page/n85/mode/2up

[Gene Wirchenko]

Post by Greg Goss

Post by Default User
Not time dilation, but suspended animation is a plot point in Anne
Leckie's Ancillary series. One of the characters was a ship captain,
and when her ship was destroyed she escaped in a "suspension pod".
Unfortunately her pod wasn't found for a thousand years. The culture
shock was severe.

One of the first Clarke stories I ever read was about a dictator who
went into suspended animation for a carefully timed period before his
return. But the sunrise counters in triplicate all got destroyed by a
minor corner of the war he had been losing. I'm forgetting the
conclusion of the story very very many years later.

He gets woken by another who then realises he was the cause of
the trouble and kills him.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by D B Davis
3. One of my custom book shelves holds more than hundred Perry
Rhodan's and dozens of Cooks. It's going to take a while to read
them all.

1. Wow, other people reading PR, that doesn't happen to often

2. Only 100? I have the first 500 or so in Dutch for Epub, so if you speak that I can supply you for a while yet. Haven't even finished them all yet.

PR does have a bunch of weird stuff going on like this, and you can see that not all of the writers have the same background in physics and astronomy: In one of the stories, a front of hundreds of lightyears is held by 100.000s of ships (yes, it picks up quick), or about 3 per lightday, one between the Neptune and the orther end of the orbit of Neptune!
In another, a ship travels without using FTL to 'prevent disturbances by the thousands of stars in the center of the galaxy', yet it takes only days or weeks to reach a point deep in the center for a meeting then go back.


I think a lot of stories avoid time dilation because it gets to close to time travel at v>c, which is just very inconvenient, and because for most stories that are simply 'normal' stories RECYCLED IN SPACE! they don't add a lot to the plot and require quite a bit of research from the unknowning writer.

[Quadibloc]

Post by m***@gmail.com
2. Only 100? I have the first 500 or so in Dutch

Yes, only a very limited portion of the Perry Rhodan books were ever translated
into English.

John Savard

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Quadibloc
Yes, only a very limited portion of the Perry Rhodan books were ever translated
into English.

You don't read German?!?

[Sjouke Burry]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
Yes, only a very limited portion of the Perry Rhodan books were ever translated
into English.

You don't read German?!?

He could read them in dutch.

I have read them until number 1660.
Then dumped 1001-1660, because things after 1000
got from bad to worse.

[D B Davis]

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
Yes, only a very limited portion of the Perry Rhodan books were ever translated
into English.

You don't read German?!?

He could read them in dutch.
I have read them until number 1660.
Then dumped 1001-1660, because things after 1000
got from bad to worse.

As a nascent PR reader, it will take me a very long time to reach 1001.
If 1001 is ever reached by me your warning will be remembered and heeded
should my inner voice confirm the worse. Life's too short for bad
stories.
It impresses me that PR stories remained relatively viable for
about two decades. Too many authors, after only a few stories, burn out
and churn out formulaic fable more Dead On Arrival than a crispy
critter.

✍

Thank you,

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by D B Davis

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
Yes, only a very limited portion of the Perry Rhodan books were ever translated
into English.

You don't read German?!?

He could read them in dutch.
I have read them until number 1660.
Then dumped 1001-1660, because things after 1000
got from bad to worse.

As a nascent PR reader, it will take me a very long time to reach 1001.
If 1001 is ever reached by me your warning will be remembered and heeded
should my inner voice confirm the worse. Life's too short for bad
stories.
It impresses me that PR stories remained relatively viable for
about two decades. Too many authors, after only a few stories, burn out
and churn out formulaic fable more Dead On Arrival than a crispy
critter.
✍
Thank you,

Seems that most authors can only make a series last for 10 to 12 books
before the audience fades away. David Weber and Laurell Hamilton are
noted exceptions to this.

Lynn

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by D B Davis

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
Yes, only a very limited portion of the Perry Rhodan books were

ever translated

Post by D B Davis

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
into English.

You don't read German?!?

He could read them in dutch.
I have read them until number 1660.
Then dumped 1001-1660, because things after 1000
got from bad to worse.

As a nascent PR reader, it will take me a very long time to reach 1001.
If 1001 is ever reached by me your warning will be remembered and heeded
should my inner voice confirm the worse. Life's too short for bad
stories.
It impresses me that PR stories remained relatively viable for
about two decades. Too many authors, after only a few stories, burn out
and churn out formulaic fable more Dead On Arrival than a crispy
critter.
✍
Thank you,

Seems that most authors can only make a series last for 10 to 12 books
before the audience fades away. David Weber and Laurell Hamilton are
noted exceptions to this.
Lynn

I don't know. I can think of too many counter-examples off the top of my
head. Not to mention 80 years of "Superman".

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Quadibloc

Post by D B Davis

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
Yes, only a very limited portion of the Perry Rhodan books were

ever translated

Post by D B Davis

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
into English.

You don't read German?!?

He could read them in dutch.
I have read them until number 1660.
Then dumped 1001-1660, because things after 1000
got from bad to worse.

As a nascent PR reader, it will take me a very long time to reach 1001.
If 1001 is ever reached by me your warning will be remembered and heeded
should my inner voice confirm the worse. Life's too short for bad
stories.
It impresses me that PR stories remained relatively viable for
about two decades. Too many authors, after only a few stories, burn out
and churn out formulaic fable more Dead On Arrival than a crispy
critter.
✍
Thank you,

Seems that most authors can only make a series last for 10 to 12 books
before the audience fades away. David Weber and Laurell Hamilton are
noted exceptions to this.
Lynn

I don't know. I can think of too many counter-examples off the top of my
head. Not to mention 80 years of "Superman".

Most comic books are many authors. So is Perry Rhodan.

Lynn

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Quadibloc

Post by D B Davis

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
Yes, only a very limited portion of the Perry Rhodan books were

ever translated

Post by D B Davis

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
into English.

You don't read German?!?

He could read them in dutch.
I have read them until number 1660.
Then dumped 1001-1660, because things after 1000
got from bad to worse.

As a nascent PR reader, it will take me a very long time to reach 1001.
If 1001 is ever reached by me your warning will be remembered and heeded
should my inner voice confirm the worse. Life's too short for bad
stories.
It impresses me that PR stories remained relatively viable for
about two decades. Too many authors, after only a few stories, burn out
and churn out formulaic fable more Dead On Arrival than a crispy
critter.
✍
Thank you,

Seems that most authors can only make a series last for 10 to 12 books
before the audience fades away. David Weber and Laurell Hamilton are
noted exceptions to this.
Lynn

I don't know. I can think of too many counter-examples off the top of my
head. Not to mention 80 years of "Superman".

Most comic books are many authors. So is Perry Rhodan.
Lynn

Ah, I slightly misinterpreted your comment to apply to any series. But
that still leaves, hmm, "Tarzan", "Dray Prescott", "Dumarest", "Nero Wolfe",
and "Hercule Poirot" again off the top of my head.

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Quadibloc

Post by D B Davis

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
Yes, only a very limited portion of the Perry Rhodan books were

ever translated

Post by D B Davis

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
into English.

You don't read German?!?

He could read them in dutch.
I have read them until number 1660.
Then dumped 1001-1660, because things after 1000
got from bad to worse.

As a nascent PR reader, it will take me a very long time to reach 1001.
If 1001 is ever reached by me your warning will be remembered and heeded
should my inner voice confirm the worse. Life's too short for bad
stories.
It impresses me that PR stories remained relatively viable for
about two decades. Too many authors, after only a few stories, burn out
and churn out formulaic fable more Dead On Arrival than a crispy
critter.
✍
Thank you,

Seems that most authors can only make a series last for 10 to 12 books
before the audience fades away. David Weber and Laurell Hamilton are
noted exceptions to this.
Lynn

I don't know. I can think of too many counter-examples off the top of my
head. Not to mention 80 years of "Superman".

Most comic books are many authors. So is Perry Rhodan.
Lynn

Ah, I slightly misinterpreted your comment to apply to any series. But
that still leaves, hmm, "Tarzan", "Dray Prescott", "Dumarest", "Nero Wolfe",
and "Hercule Poirot" again off the top of my head.

True dat for sure about Tarzan. I had 15 ? 20 ? 25 ? of the Tarzan
books before the great flood of 1989.

Lynn

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Quadibloc

Post by D B Davis

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
Yes, only a very limited portion of the Perry Rhodan books were

ever translated

Post by D B Davis

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
into English.

You don't read German?!?

He could read them in dutch.
I have read them until number 1660.
Then dumped 1001-1660, because things after 1000
got from bad to worse.

As a nascent PR reader, it will take me a very long time to reach 1001.
If 1001 is ever reached by me your warning will be remembered and heeded
should my inner voice confirm the worse. Life's too short for bad
stories.
It impresses me that PR stories remained relatively viable for
about two decades. Too many authors, after only a few stories, burn out
and churn out formulaic fable more Dead On Arrival than a crispy
critter.
✍
Thank you,

Seems that most authors can only make a series last for 10 to 12 books
before the audience fades away. David Weber and Laurell Hamilton are
noted exceptions to this.
Lynn

I don't know. I can think of too many counter-examples off the top of my
head. Not to mention 80 years of "Superman".

Most comic books are many authors. So is Perry Rhodan.
Lynn

Ah, I slightly misinterpreted your comment to apply to any series. But
that still leaves, hmm, "Tarzan", "Dray Prescott", "Dumarest", "Nero Wolfe",
and "Hercule Poirot" again off the top of my head.

True dat for sure about Tarzan. I had 15 ? 20 ? 25 ? of the Tarzan
books before the great flood of 1989.
Lynn

I think I read them all at one point, but I could be wrong. I was much more
into John Carter and Carson "Wrong Way" Napier.

[Juho Julkunen]

In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@loft.tnolan.com
says...

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Lynn McGuire
True dat for sure about Tarzan. I had 15 ? 20 ? 25 ? of the Tarzan
books before the great flood of 1989.
Lynn

I think I read them all at one point, but I could be wrong. I was much more
into John Carter and Carson "Wrong Way" Napier.

I believe I've read all of Burrough's Tarzan, Pellucidar and Mars
books. I never got into the Venus stories, possibly because I only got
around to them later in life. The first three have been translated into
Finnish, but I never saw them when I was a kid.

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Quadibloc

Post by D B Davis

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
Yes, only a very limited portion of the Perry Rhodan books were

ever translated

Post by D B Davis

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
into English.

You don't read German?!?

He could read them in dutch.
I have read them until number 1660.
Then dumped 1001-1660, because things after 1000
got from bad to worse.

As a nascent PR reader, it will take me a very long time to reach 1001.
If 1001 is ever reached by me your warning will be remembered and heeded
should my inner voice confirm the worse. Life's too short for bad
stories.
It impresses me that PR stories remained relatively viable for
about two decades. Too many authors, after only a few stories, burn out
and churn out formulaic fable more Dead On Arrival than a crispy
critter.
âœ
Thank you,

Seems that most authors can only make a series last for 10 to 12 books
before the audience fades away. David Weber and Laurell Hamilton are
noted exceptions to this.
Lynn

I don't know. I can think of too many counter-examples off the top of my
head. Not to mention 80 years of "Superman".

Most comic books are many authors. So is Perry Rhodan.
Lynn

Ah, I slightly misinterpreted your comment to apply to any series. But
that still leaves, hmm, "Tarzan", "Dray Prescott", "Dumarest", "Nero Wolfe",
and "Hercule Poirot" again off the top of my head.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

I had to check what criterion we were using. In some of these
examples, the audience continued, the quality didn't necessarily.

[David Goldfarb]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Ah, I slightly misinterpreted your comment to apply to any series. But
that still leaves, hmm, "Tarzan", "Dray Prescott", "Dumarest", "Nero Wolfe",
and "Hercule Poirot" again off the top of my head.

Every day I get an email with e-book discount offers. One of them recently
contained a deep discount on a "box set" of recent Xanth novels. I don't
remember the exact numbers, but it was something like 38-40.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Quadibloc

Post by D B Davis

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
Yes, only a very limited portion of the Perry Rhodan books were

ever translated

Post by D B Davis

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
into English.

You don't read German?!?

He could read them in dutch.
I have read them until number 1660.
Then dumped 1001-1660, because things after 1000
got from bad to worse.

As a nascent PR reader, it will take me a very long time to reach 1001.
If 1001 is ever reached by me your warning will be remembered and heeded
should my inner voice confirm the worse. Life's too short for bad
stories.
It impresses me that PR stories remained relatively viable for
about two decades. Too many authors, after only a few stories, burn out
and churn out formulaic fable more Dead On Arrival than a crispy
critter.
✍
Thank you,

Seems that most authors can only make a series last for 10 to 12 books
before the audience fades away. David Weber and Laurell Hamilton are
noted exceptions to this.
Lynn

I don't know. I can think of too many counter-examples off the top of my
head. Not to mention 80 years of "Superman".

Particularly outside of Science Fiction/fantasy. I'm surprised that
Lynn isn't a Mack bolan fan, it's right up a Texan's gun-toting alley.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mack_Bolan

[D B Davis]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Quadibloc

Post by D B Davis

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
Yes, only a very limited portion of the Perry Rhodan books were

ever translated

Post by D B Davis

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
into English.

You don't read German?!?

He could read them in dutch.
I have read them until number 1660.
Then dumped 1001-1660, because things after 1000
got from bad to worse.

As a nascent PR reader, it will take me a very long time to reach 1001.
If 1001 is ever reached by me your warning will be remembered and heeded
should my inner voice confirm the worse. Life's too short for bad
stories.
It impresses me that PR stories remained relatively viable for
about two decades. Too many authors, after only a few stories, burn out
and churn out formulaic fable more Dead On Arrival than a crispy
critter.

Seems that most authors can only make a series last for 10 to 12 books
before the audience fades away. David Weber and Laurell Hamilton are
noted exceptions to this.

I don't know. I can think of too many counter-examples off the top of my
head. Not to mention 80 years of "Superman".

It's hard for me to criticize authors in public because each and every
story has its fans. Criticize the story and you criticize its fans. So
it's prudent to just keep it "de gustibus non est disputandum" all the
way down to the last story written. That's why my next paragraph
neglects to mention specific authors.
One well known novel actually became repetitive and formulaic
in-situ , all by itself; it didn't need a series. Another author, first
published in 2005, became formulaic by his second book. Yet another
author became formulaic by the third story in his short story series.
There's at least one Mary Sue series in the wild, less than a decade
old. (OK. It really didn't /go bad/ per se, it was born bad.) Some
venerated authors from the gold/silver age went back to their same old
well over and over again. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Your "Superman" analogy's a fair fit. The Mowewig front covers
contain colorful cartoons. Inside you find about a half a dozen, small,
black and white cartoons embedded in 60-70 pulpy pages packed with
paragraphs.

✍

Thank you,

[D B Davis]

Post by D B Davis

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Quadibloc

Post by D B Davis

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
Yes, only a very limited portion of the Perry Rhodan books were

ever translated

Post by D B Davis

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
into English.

You don't read German?!?

He could read them in dutch.
I have read them until number 1660.
Then dumped 1001-1660, because things after 1000
got from bad to worse.

As a nascent PR reader, it will take me a very long time to reach 1001.
If 1001 is ever reached by me your warning will be remembered and heeded
should my inner voice confirm the worse. Life's too short for bad
stories.
It impresses me that PR stories remained relatively viable for
about two decades. Too many authors, after only a few stories, burn out
and churn out formulaic fable more Dead On Arrival than a crispy
critter.

Seems that most authors can only make a series last for 10 to 12 books
before the audience fades away. David Weber and Laurell Hamilton are
noted exceptions to this.

I don't know. I can think of too many counter-examples off the top of my
head. Not to mention 80 years of "Superman".

It's hard for me to criticize authors in public because each and every
story has its fans. Criticize the story and you criticize its fans. So
it's prudent to just keep it "de gustibus non est disputandum" all the
way down to the last story written. That's why my next paragraph
neglects to mention specific authors.
One well known novel actually became repetitive and formulaic
in-situ , all by itself; it didn't need a series. Another author, first
published in 2005, became formulaic by his second book. Yet another
author became formulaic by the third story in his short story series.
There's at least one Mary Sue series in the wild, less than a decade
old. (OK. It really didn't /go bad/ per se, it was born bad.) Some
venerated authors from the gold/silver age went back to their same old
well over and over again. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Your "Superman" analogy's a fair fit. The Mowewig front covers
contain colorful cartoons. Inside you find about a half a dozen, small,
black and white cartoons embedded in 60-70 pulpy pages packed with
paragraphs.

Correction: my last paragraph should say Moewig (not Mowewig) covers:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q="moewig"+perry+rhodan&ia=images&iax=images

✍

Thank you,

[J. Clarke]

Post by D B Davis

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Quadibloc

Post by D B Davis

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
Yes, only a very limited portion of the Perry Rhodan books were

ever translated

Post by D B Davis

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc
into English.

You don't read German?!?

He could read them in dutch.
I have read them until number 1660.
Then dumped 1001-1660, because things after 1000
got from bad to worse.

As a nascent PR reader, it will take me a very long time to reach 1001.
If 1001 is ever reached by me your warning will be remembered and heeded
should my inner voice confirm the worse. Life's too short for bad
stories.
It impresses me that PR stories remained relatively viable for
about two decades. Too many authors, after only a few stories, burn out
and churn out formulaic fable more Dead On Arrival than a crispy
critter.

Seems that most authors can only make a series last for 10 to 12 books
before the audience fades away. David Weber and Laurell Hamilton are
noted exceptions to this.

I don't know. I can think of too many counter-examples off the top of my
head. Not to mention 80 years of "Superman".

It's hard for me to criticize authors in public because each and every
story has its fans. Criticize the story and you criticize its fans. So
it's prudent to just keep it "de gustibus non est disputandum" all the
way down to the last story written. That's why my next paragraph
neglects to mention specific authors.
One well known novel actually became repetitive and formulaic
in-situ , all by itself; it didn't need a series. Another author, first
published in 2005, became formulaic by his second book. Yet another
author became formulaic by the third story in his short story series.
There's at least one Mary Sue series in the wild, less than a decade
old. (OK. It really didn't /go bad/ per se, it was born bad.) Some
venerated authors from the gold/silver age went back to their same old
well over and over again. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Your "Superman" analogy's a fair fit. The Mowewig

??? Google come up with 12 hits none of them seemingly relevant.

Post by D B Davis
front covers
contain colorful cartoons. Inside you find about a half a dozen, small,
black and white cartoons embedded in 60-70 pulpy pages packed with
paragraphs.
?
Thank you,

[David DeLaney]

Post by D B Davis
There's at least one Mary Sue series in the wild, less than a decade
old. (OK. It really didn't /go bad/ per se, it was born bad.)

Gini Koch's 'Alien' series, which is still going. I like it a lot; some
suspension of disbelief is of course required. James Nicoll got turned off by
the first book, something about executing the bad guys?

Dave, "I turned and ran away across the Reflecting Pool"

[Greg Goss]

Post by Lynn McGuire
Seems that most authors can only make a series last for 10 to 12 books
before the audience fades away. David Weber and Laurell Hamilton are
noted exceptions to this.

The second last Honor book seemed to pick up a lot of snarlies from
the fansites.

There's a nicely written fanfic book that wraps up the whole Honor
series at about the halfway point.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Greg Goss

Post by Lynn McGuire
Seems that most authors can only make a series last for 10 to 12 books
before the audience fades away. David Weber and Laurell Hamilton are
noted exceptions to this.

The second last Honor book seemed to pick up a lot of snarlies from
the fansites.
There's a nicely written fanfic book that wraps up the whole Honor
series at about the halfway point.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

The current one wraps up the main menace as quickly as the last Safehold
book did. Seemed very "not with a bang" to me.

One problem with the previous book is that the Amazon image (but not the
printed hardbacks) blurbed it as "Honor Harrington" while the correct
blurb was "Honorverse". That confused me and many people on Amazon.

[m***@sky.com]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Greg Goss

Post by Lynn McGuire
Seems that most authors can only make a series last for 10 to 12 books
before the audience fades away. David Weber and Laurell Hamilton are
noted exceptions to this.

The second last Honor book seemed to pick up a lot of snarlies from
the fansites.
There's a nicely written fanfic book that wraps up the whole Honor
series at about the halfway point.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

The current one wraps up the main menace as quickly as the last Safehold
book did. Seemed very "not with a bang" to me.
One problem with the previous book is that the Amazon image (but not the
printed hardbacks) blurbed it as "Honor Harrington" while the correct
blurb was "Honorverse". That confused me and many people on Amazon.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

I read it on kindle, where it doesn't have a physical size, but it seemed like a pretty big book for "as quickly". It does show the advantage of pretty complete technological surprise. Somewhere there's a Solarian or Mesan writing a history in which an evil Manticore unleashes unprovoked aggression to take advantage of a fleeting technological advantage.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by m***@sky.com

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Greg Goss

Post by Lynn McGuire
Seems that most authors can only make a series last for 10 to 12 books
before the audience fades away. David Weber and Laurell Hamilton are
noted exceptions to this.

The second last Honor book seemed to pick up a lot of snarlies from
the fansites.
There's a nicely written fanfic book that wraps up the whole Honor
series at about the halfway point.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

The current one wraps up the main menace as quickly as the last Safehold
book did. Seemed very "not with a bang" to me.
One problem with the previous book is that the Amazon image (but not the
printed hardbacks) blurbed it as "Honor Harrington" while the correct
blurb was "Honorverse". That confused me and many people on Amazon.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

I read it on kindle, where it doesn't have a physical size, but it
seemed like a pretty big book for "as quickly". It does show the
advantage of pretty complete technological surprise. Somewhere there's a
Solarian or Mesan writing a history in which an evil Manticore unleashes
unprovoked aggression to take advantage of a fleeting technological
advantage.

"Quickly" for Weber. Got to get those meeting minutes in!

I was amused he introduced almost literally a Checkov's rifle that
remained unfired.

[J. Clarke]

Post by m***@sky.com

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Greg Goss

Post by Lynn McGuire
Seems that most authors can only make a series last for 10 to 12 books
before the audience fades away. David Weber and Laurell Hamilton are
noted exceptions to this.

The second last Honor book seemed to pick up a lot of snarlies from
the fansites.
There's a nicely written fanfic book that wraps up the whole Honor
series at about the halfway point.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

The current one wraps up the main menace as quickly as the last Safehold
book did. Seemed very "not with a bang" to me.
One problem with the previous book is that the Amazon image (but not the
printed hardbacks) blurbed it as "Honor Harrington" while the correct
blurb was "Honorverse". That confused me and many people on Amazon.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

I read it on kindle, where it doesn't have a physical size, but it seemed like a pretty big book for "as quickly". It does show the advantage of pretty complete technological surprise. Somewhere there's a Solarian or Mesan writing a history in which an evil Manticore unleashes unprovoked aggression to take advantage of a fleeting technological advantage.

What the Solarians do is irrelevant--they lost, they don't get to
write the history.

The Mesans think they're hot shit but the only reason they're
surviving is that so far nobody has found their bolthole--when
somebody does it's going to be gone in sixty seconds.

[m***@sky.com]

On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 7:03:11 AM UTC, J. Clarke wrote:
(Trimmed, and not staring with J. Clarke)

Post by J. Clarke

Post by m***@sky.com
I read it on kindle, where it doesn't have a physical size, but it seemed like a pretty big book for "as quickly". It does show the advantage of pretty complete technological surprise. Somewhere there's a Solarian or Mesan writing a history in which an evil Manticore unleashes unprovoked aggression to take advantage of a fleeting technological advantage.

What the Solarians do is irrelevant--they lost, they don't get to
write the history.
The Mesans think they're hot shit but the only reason they're
surviving is that so far nobody has found their bolthole--when
somebody does it's going to be gone in sixty seconds.

The Mesans are stuffed - to me the nicest part of the book was the revelation that their oh-so-clever nanotechnology has a (literally) fatal flaw.

The Solarians are a problem that (as of 2018) we can recognise but don't have an answer for. Manticore seems to reckon that it can impose proper constitutional government on a slightly more dystopian version of the EU democratic deficit and relax. That made sense before we saw what happened to Russia when communism collapsed, and what happened to the attempts to build democracy in Iraq. Compared to these examples, the British Imperial system of Indirect Rule appears a remarkable success - but that depends on "Whatever happens, we have got/ the Maxim gun and they have not." One of the defences of the Empire is that it forestalled the schemes of villains with new-fangled weapons who wanted to play "The man who would be king" with a happy ending. Fifty years down the line, the Solarians may have at least technological equality, and they are a _lot_ bigger than Manticore.

[J. Clarke]

Post by m***@sky.com
(Trimmed, and not staring with J. Clarke)

Post by J. Clarke

Post by m***@sky.com
I read it on kindle, where it doesn't have a physical size, but it seemed like a pretty big book for "as quickly". It does show the advantage of pretty complete technological surprise. Somewhere there's a Solarian or Mesan writing a history in which an evil Manticore unleashes unprovoked aggression to take advantage of a fleeting technological advantage.

What the Solarians do is irrelevant--they lost, they don't get to
write the history.
The Mesans think they're hot shit but the only reason they're
surviving is that so far nobody has found their bolthole--when
somebody does it's going to be gone in sixty seconds.

The Mesans are stuffed - to me the nicest part of the book was the revelation that their oh-so-clever nanotechnology has a (literally) fatal flaw.
The Solarians are a problem that (as of 2018) we can recognise but don't have an answer for. Manticore seems to reckon that it can impose proper constitutional government on a slightly more dystopian version of the EU democratic deficit and relax. That made sense before we saw what happened to Russia when communism collapsed, and what happened to the attempts to build democracy in Iraq. Compared to these examples, the British Imperial system of Indirect Rule appears a remarkable success - but that depends on "Whatever happens, we have got/ the Maxim gun and they have not." One of the defences of the Empire is that it forestalled the schemes of villains with new-fangled weapons who wanted to play "The man who would be king" with a happy ending. Fifty years down the line, the Solarians may have at least technological equality, and they are a _lot_ bigger than Manticore.

The intent seems to be to Balkanize it. And Earth isn't going to be
back in the game in 50 years.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by m***@sky.com
(Trimmed, and not staring with J. Clarke)

Post by J. Clarke

Post by m***@sky.com
I read it on kindle, where it doesn't have a physical size, but it

seemed like a pretty big book for "as quickly". It does show the
advantage of pretty complete technological surprise. Somewhere there's a
Solarian or Mesan writing a history in which an evil Manticore unleashes
unprovoked aggression to take advantage of a fleeting technological
advantage.

Post by J. Clarke
What the Solarians do is irrelevant--they lost, they don't get to
write the history.
The Mesans think they're hot shit but the only reason they're
surviving is that so far nobody has found their bolthole--when
somebody does it's going to be gone in sixty seconds.

The Mesans are stuffed - to me the nicest part of the book was the
revelation that their oh-so-clever nanotechnology has a (literally)
fatal flaw.

OK, somehow I missed that or read it and didn't see it as
a big point. What's the flaw?

[m***@sky.com]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by m***@sky.com
(Trimmed, and not staring with J. Clarke)

Post by J. Clarke

Post by m***@sky.com
I read it on kindle, where it doesn't have a physical size, but it

seemed like a pretty big book for "as quickly". It does show the
advantage of pretty complete technological surprise. Somewhere there's a
Solarian or Mesan writing a history in which an evil Manticore unleashes
unprovoked aggression to take advantage of a fleeting technological
advantage.

Post by J. Clarke
What the Solarians do is irrelevant--they lost, they don't get to
write the history.
The Mesans think they're hot shit but the only reason they're
surviving is that so far nobody has found their bolthole--when
somebody does it's going to be gone in sixty seconds.

The Mesans are stuffed - to me the nicest part of the book was the
revelation that their oh-so-clever nanotechnology has a (literally)
fatal flaw.

OK, somehow I missed that or read it and didn't see it as
a big point. What's the flaw?
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Some hints to jog your memory:
1) Safety-critical mechanisms should not have single points of failure.
2) Some computer security problems have been unexpected consequences of devices working exactly as intended.
3) Secret agents should as far as possible be indistinguishable from innocent workers.

So the problem with equipping secret agents with so-clever nanoware that kills them before they can be forced to disclose their secrets is that if the opposition go around telling everybody they meet that they're under arrest for treason all of the secret agents react differently from the innocent by dropping dead on the spot - which is a bit of a fatal security flaw.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by m***@sky.com

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by m***@sky.com
(Trimmed, and not staring with J. Clarke)

Post by J. Clarke

Post by m***@sky.com
I read it on kindle, where it doesn't have a physical size, but it

seemed like a pretty big book for "as quickly". It does show the
advantage of pretty complete technological surprise. Somewhere there's a
Solarian or Mesan writing a history in which an evil Manticore unleashes
unprovoked aggression to take advantage of a fleeting technological
advantage.

Post by J. Clarke
What the Solarians do is irrelevant--they lost, they don't get to
write the history.
The Mesans think they're hot shit but the only reason they're
surviving is that so far nobody has found their bolthole--when
somebody does it's going to be gone in sixty seconds.

The Mesans are stuffed - to me the nicest part of the book was the
revelation that their oh-so-clever nanotechnology has a (literally)
fatal flaw.

OK, somehow I missed that or read it and didn't see it as
a big point. What's the flaw?
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

1) Safety-critical mechanisms should not have single points of failure.
2) Some computer security problems have been unexpected consequences of
devices working exactly as intended.
3) Secret agents should as far as possible be indistinguishable from innocent workers.
So the problem with equipping secret agents with so-clever nanoware that
kills them before they can be forced to disclose their secrets is that
if the opposition go around telling everybody they meet that they're
under arrest for treason all of the secret agents react differently from
the innocent by dropping dead on the spot - which is a bit of a fatal
security flaw.

Ah, got you! I was thinking "fatal flaw" == not working as intended.

[David Johnston]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by m***@sky.com

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Greg Goss

Post by Lynn McGuire
Seems that most authors can only make a series last for 10 to 12 books
before the audience fades away. David Weber and Laurell Hamilton are
noted exceptions to this.

The second last Honor book seemed to pick up a lot of snarlies from
the fansites.
There's a nicely written fanfic book that wraps up the whole Honor
series at about the halfway point.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

The current one wraps up the main menace as quickly as the last Safehold
book did. Seemed very "not with a bang" to me.
One problem with the previous book is that the Amazon image (but not the
printed hardbacks) blurbed it as "Honor Harrington" while the correct
blurb was "Honorverse". That confused me and many people on Amazon.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

I read it on kindle, where it doesn't have a physical size, but it seemed like a pretty big book for "as quickly". It does show the advantage of pretty complete technological surprise. Somewhere there's a Solarian or Mesan writing a history in which an evil Manticore unleashes unprovoked aggression to take advantage of a fleeting technological advantage.

What the Solarians do is irrelevant--they lost, they don't get to
write the history.

That's a myth. There are multiple times when nations lost wars and
survived to write histories. Notably in the case of the American Civil
War, they actually managed to write something that persisted as the
dominant narrative for more than a century afterward.

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by m***@sky.com

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Greg Goss

Post by Lynn McGuire
Seems that most authors can only make a series last for 10 to 12 books
before the audience fades away.  David Weber and Laurell Hamilton are
noted exceptions to this.

The second last Honor book seemed to pick up a lot of snarlies from
the fansites.
There's a nicely written fanfic book that wraps up the whole Honor
series at about the halfway point.
--
We are geeks.  Resistance is voltage over current.

The current one wraps up the main menace as quickly as the last Safehold
book did.  Seemed very "not with a bang" to me.
One problem with the previous book is that the Amazon image (but not the
printed hardbacks) blurbed it as "Honor Harrington" while the correct
blurb was "Honorverse".  That confused me and many people on Amazon.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

I read it on kindle, where it doesn't have a physical size, but it
seemed like a pretty big book for "as quickly". It does show the
advantage of pretty complete technological surprise. Somewhere
there's a Solarian or Mesan writing a history in which an evil
Manticore unleashes unprovoked aggression to take advantage of a
fleeting technological advantage.

What the Solarians do is irrelevant--they lost, they don't get to
write the history.

That's a myth.  There are multiple times when nations lost wars and
survived to write histories.  Notably in the case of the American Civil
War, they actually managed to write something that persisted as the
dominant narrative for more than a century afterward.

What, "The War of Northern Aggression" ?

Lynn

[Kevrob]

Post by Lynn McGuire

That's a myth.  There are multiple times when nations lost wars and
survived to write histories.  Notably in the case of the American Civil
War, they actually managed to write something that persisted as the
dominant narrative for more than a century afterward.

What, "The War of Northern Aggression" ?

"American Civil War" and "War Between The States" are both compromises
between that and "War of the Southron Rebellion."

Binding up the wounds, and all that. I've always found "The Late
Unpleasantness" a particularly diplomatic, if pussyfooting euphemism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_American_Civil_War

Kevin R

[J. Clarke]

Post by Kevrob

Post by Lynn McGuire

That's a myth.  There are multiple times when nations lost wars and
survived to write histories.  Notably in the case of the American Civil
War, they actually managed to write something that persisted as the
dominant narrative for more than a century afterward.

What, "The War of Northern Aggression" ?

"American Civil War" and "War Between The States" are both compromises
between that and "War of the Southron Rebellion."
Binding up the wounds, and all that. I've always found "The Late
Unpleasantness" a particularly diplomatic, if pussyfooting euphemism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_American_Civil_War

In any case, I really wish that people who say things like "persisted
as the dominant narrative" would explain what they believe this
"dominant narrative" to be.

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Kevrob

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by David Johnston
That's a myth. There are multiple times when nations lost wars and
survived to write histories. Notably in the case of the American Civil
War, they actually managed to write something that persisted as the
dominant narrative for more than a century afterward.

What, "The War of Northern Aggression" ?

"American Civil War" and "War Between The States" are both compromises
between that and "War of the Southron Rebellion."
Binding up the wounds, and all that. I've always found "The Late
Unpleasantness" a particularly diplomatic, if pussyfooting euphemism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_American_Civil_War

In any case, I really wish that people who say things like "persisted
as the dominant narrative" would explain what they believe this
"dominant narrative" to be.

That it wasn't about slavery.

[J. Clarke]

On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 17:31:02 -0800, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Kevrob

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by David Johnston
That's a myth. There are multiple times when nations lost wars and
survived to write histories. Notably in the case of the American Civil
War, they actually managed to write something that persisted as the
dominant narrative for more than a century afterward.

What, "The War of Northern Aggression" ?

"American Civil War" and "War Between The States" are both compromises
between that and "War of the Southron Rebellion."
Binding up the wounds, and all that. I've always found "The Late
Unpleasantness" a particularly diplomatic, if pussyfooting euphemism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_American_Civil_War

In any case, I really wish that people who say things like "persisted
as the dominant narrative" would explain what they believe this
"dominant narrative" to be.

That it wasn't about slavery.

I figured that that was what you were thinking and if you do think
that you certainly did _not_ attend public schools in the South
because we were _not_ taught that it was about anything except
slavery.

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 17:31:02 -0800, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Kevrob

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by David Johnston
That's a myth. There are multiple times when nations lost wars and
survived to write histories. Notably in the case of the American Civil
War, they actually managed to write something that persisted as the
dominant narrative for more than a century afterward.

What, "The War of Northern Aggression" ?

"American Civil War" and "War Between The States" are both compromises
between that and "War of the Southron Rebellion."
Binding up the wounds, and all that. I've always found "The Late
Unpleasantness" a particularly diplomatic, if pussyfooting euphemism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_American_Civil_War

In any case, I really wish that people who say things like "persisted
as the dominant narrative" would explain what they believe this
"dominant narrative" to be.

That it wasn't about slavery.

I figured that that was what you were thinking and if you do think
that you certainly did _not_ attend public schools in the South
because we were _not_ taught that it was about anything except
slavery.

Many people know it was about slavery but I've seen (and participated)
in long flame wars with some who claim it wasn't about slavery. At one
time I collected and posted about half-a-dozen speeches made by Southern
politicians during their secession votes where said IN SO MANY WORDS
that it was all about slavery and nothing but slavery. And still had
people claiming it wasn't. I have no wish to engage in such discussions
again.

[J. Clarke]

On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 21:22:40 -0800, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 17:31:02 -0800, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Kevrob

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by David Johnston
That's a myth. There are multiple times when nations lost wars and
survived to write histories. Notably in the case of the American Civil
War, they actually managed to write something that persisted as the
dominant narrative for more than a century afterward.

What, "The War of Northern Aggression" ?

"American Civil War" and "War Between The States" are both compromises
between that and "War of the Southron Rebellion."
Binding up the wounds, and all that. I've always found "The Late
Unpleasantness" a particularly diplomatic, if pussyfooting euphemism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_American_Civil_War

In any case, I really wish that people who say things like "persisted
as the dominant narrative" would explain what they believe this
"dominant narrative" to be.

That it wasn't about slavery.

I figured that that was what you were thinking and if you do think
that you certainly did _not_ attend public schools in the South
because we were _not_ taught that it was about anything except
slavery.

Many people know it was about slavery but I've seen (and participated)
in long flame wars with some who claim it wasn't about slavery. At one
time I collected and posted about half-a-dozen speeches made by Southern
politicians during their secession votes where said IN SO MANY WORDS
that it was all about slavery and nothing but slavery. And still had
people claiming it wasn't. I have no wish to engage in such discussions
again.

Well, then, I would advise you _not_ to study the subject in any
university that is worth attending because you are going to get little
sympathy for the "it was all about slavery" view.

[Kevrob]

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 21:22:40 -0800, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 17:31:02 -0800, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Kevrob

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by David Johnston
That's a myth. There are multiple times when nations lost wars and
survived to write histories. Notably in the case of the American Civil
War, they actually managed to write something that persisted as the
dominant narrative for more than a century afterward.

What, "The War of Northern Aggression" ?

"American Civil War" and "War Between The States" are both compromises
between that and "War of the Southron Rebellion."
Binding up the wounds, and all that. I've always found "The Late
Unpleasantness" a particularly diplomatic, if pussyfooting euphemism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_American_Civil_War

In any case, I really wish that people who say things like "persisted
as the dominant narrative" would explain what they believe this
"dominant narrative" to be.

That it wasn't about slavery.

I figured that that was what you were thinking and if you do think
that you certainly did _not_ attend public schools in the South
because we were _not_ taught that it was about anything except
slavery.

Many people know it was about slavery but I've seen (and participated)
in long flame wars with some who claim it wasn't about slavery. At one
time I collected and posted about half-a-dozen speeches made by Southern
politicians during their secession votes where said IN SO MANY WORDS
that it was all about slavery and nothing but slavery. And still had
people claiming it wasn't. I have no wish to engage in such discussions
again.

Well, then, I would advise you _not_ to study the subject in any
university that is worth attending because you are going to get little
sympathy for the "it was all about slavery" view.

There's a big difference between "it was mostly about slavery"
and "it was all about slavery." It was also about the tariff and
internal improvements, and an agriculturally dominant society vs
one that was industrializing. But slavery impacted all those issues.

Kevin R

[Butch Malahide]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 17:31:02 -0800, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dimensional Traveler

On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 16:39:21 -0800 (PST), Kevrob

Post by Kevrob

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by David Johnston
That's a myth. There are multiple times when nations lost wars and
survived to write histories. Notably in the case of the American Civil
War, they actually managed to write something that persisted as the
dominant narrative for more than a century afterward.

What, "The War of Northern Aggression" ?

"American Civil War" and "War Between The States" are both compromises
between that and "War of the Southron Rebellion."
Binding up the wounds, and all that. I've always found "The Late
Unpleasantness" a particularly diplomatic, if pussyfooting euphemism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_American_Civil_War

In any case, I really wish that people who say things like "persisted
as the dominant narrative" would explain what they believe this
"dominant narrative" to be.

That it wasn't about slavery.

I figured that that was what you were thinking and if you do think
that you certainly did _not_ attend public schools in the South
because we were _not_ taught that it was about anything except
slavery.

Many people know it was about slavery but I've seen (and participated)
in long flame wars with some who claim it wasn't about slavery. At one
time I collected and posted about half-a-dozen speeches made by Southern
politicians during their secession votes where said IN SO MANY WORDS
that it was all about slavery and nothing but slavery. And still had
people claiming it wasn't. I have no wish to engage in such discussions
again.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.

"It was all about slavery" depends on what the meaning of "it" is.
No doubt *Secession* was all about slavery. I think the *War* which
the North waged to recapture the South was only partly about freeing
the slaves. After all, before secession, only a few radicals wanted
to free the slaves by force of arms. Didn't Lincoln say something like, if he could save the Union without freeing a single slave, he would do it?

[David Johnston]

Post by Butch Malahide

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 17:31:02 -0800, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dimensional Traveler

On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 16:39:21 -0800 (PST), Kevrob

Post by Kevrob

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by David Johnston
That's a myth. There are multiple times when nations lost wars and
survived to write histories. Notably in the case of the American Civil
War, they actually managed to write something that persisted as the
dominant narrative for more than a century afterward.

What, "The War of Northern Aggression" ?

"American Civil War" and "War Between The States" are both compromises
between that and "War of the Southron Rebellion."
Binding up the wounds, and all that. I've always found "The Late
Unpleasantness" a particularly diplomatic, if pussyfooting euphemism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_American_Civil_War

In any case, I really wish that people who say things like "persisted
as the dominant narrative" would explain what they believe this
"dominant narrative" to be.

That it wasn't about slavery.

I figured that that was what you were thinking and if you do think
that you certainly did _not_ attend public schools in the South
because we were _not_ taught that it was about anything except
slavery.

Many people know it was about slavery but I've seen (and participated)
in long flame wars with some who claim it wasn't about slavery. At one
time I collected and posted about half-a-dozen speeches made by Southern
politicians during their secession votes where said IN SO MANY WORDS
that it was all about slavery and nothing but slavery. And still had
people claiming it wasn't. I have no wish to engage in such discussions
again.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.

"It was all about slavery" depends on what the meaning of "it" is.
No doubt *Secession* was all about slavery. I think the *War* which
the North waged to recapture the South was only partly about freeing
the slaves. After all, before secession, only a few radicals wanted
to free the slaves by force of arms. Didn't Lincoln say something like, if he could save the Union without freeing a single slave, he would do it?

He did. On the other hand when he was asked whether he'd be willing to
allow slavery in the territories after all, his answer was "no".

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Butch Malahide

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 17:31:02 -0800, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dimensional Traveler

On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 16:39:21 -0800 (PST), Kevrob

Post by Kevrob

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by David Johnston
That's a myth. There are multiple times when nations lost wars and
survived to write histories. Notably in the case of the American Civil
War, they actually managed to write something that persisted as the
dominant narrative for more than a century afterward.

What, "The War of Northern Aggression" ?

"American Civil War" and "War Between The States" are both compromises
between that and "War of the Southron Rebellion."
Binding up the wounds, and all that. I've always found "The Late
Unpleasantness" a particularly diplomatic, if pussyfooting euphemism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_American_Civil_War

In any case, I really wish that people who say things like "persisted
as the dominant narrative" would explain what they believe this
"dominant narrative" to be.

That it wasn't about slavery.

I figured that that was what you were thinking and if you do think
that you certainly did _not_ attend public schools in the South
because we were _not_ taught that it was about anything except
slavery.

Many people know it was about slavery but I've seen (and participated)
in long flame wars with some who claim it wasn't about slavery. At one
time I collected and posted about half-a-dozen speeches made by Southern
politicians during their secession votes where said IN SO MANY WORDS
that it was all about slavery and nothing but slavery. And still had
people claiming it wasn't. I have no wish to engage in such discussions
again.

"It was all about slavery" depends on what the meaning of "it" is.
No doubt *Secession* was all about slavery. I think the *War* which
the North waged to recapture the South was only partly about freeing
the slaves. After all, before secession, only a few radicals wanted
to free the slaves by force of arms. Didn't Lincoln say something like, if he could save the Union without freeing a single slave, he would do it?

Yes, he did but it quickly became clear that the only way the Union
could _remain_ united was if slavery was abolished.

As for "the War the North waged to recapture the South", the South
_started_ the war by firing on Fort Sumter and many who had supported
secession WANTED a war with the North.

[Butch Malahide]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Butch Malahide

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 17:31:02 -0800, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dimensional Traveler

On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 16:39:21 -0800 (PST), Kevrob

Post by Kevrob

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by David Johnston
That's a myth. There are multiple times when nations lost wars and
survived to write histories. Notably in the case of the American Civil
War, they actually managed to write something that persisted as the
dominant narrative for more than a century afterward.

What, "The War of Northern Aggression" ?

"American Civil War" and "War Between The States" are both compromises
between that and "War of the Southron Rebellion."
Binding up the wounds, and all that. I've always found "The Late
Unpleasantness" a particularly diplomatic, if pussyfooting euphemism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_American_Civil_War

In any case, I really wish that people who say things like "persisted
as the dominant narrative" would explain what they believe this
"dominant narrative" to be.

That it wasn't about slavery.

I figured that that was what you were thinking and if you do think
that you certainly did _not_ attend public schools in the South
because we were _not_ taught that it was about anything except
slavery.

Many people know it was about slavery but I've seen (and participated)
in long flame wars with some who claim it wasn't about slavery. At one
time I collected and posted about half-a-dozen speeches made by Southern
politicians during their secession votes where said IN SO MANY WORDS
that it was all about slavery and nothing but slavery. And still had
people claiming it wasn't. I have no wish to engage in such discussions
again.

"It was all about slavery" depends on what the meaning of "it" is.
No doubt *Secession* was all about slavery. I think the *War* which
the North waged to recapture the South was only partly about freeing
the slaves. After all, before secession, only a few radicals wanted
to free the slaves by force of arms. Didn't Lincoln say something like, if he could save the Union without freeing a single slave, he would do it?

Yes, he did but it quickly became clear that the only way the Union
could _remain_ united was if slavery was abolished.
As for "the War the North waged to recapture the South", the South
_started_ the war by firing on Fort Sumter and many who had supported
secession WANTED a war with the North.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.

I';m sure you know more about it than I do; all I know about history is
what I remember from high school and what I learned from reading time
travel stories. So we had the Civil War because the rebels attacked
Fort Sumter, not because Lincoln wanted to preserve the Union? If the
Southerners had allowed Fort Sumter to remain as a hostile enclave (sorta
like Guantanamo?), then the Republicans would have been willing to let
the Southern States depart in peace? They've written a lot of stories
where the South wins the war, none that I know of about the North and
South separating peacefully like Czechia and Slovakia.

[David Johnston]

Post by Butch Malahide

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Butch Malahide

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 17:31:02 -0800, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dimensional Traveler

On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 16:39:21 -0800 (PST), Kevrob

Post by Kevrob

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by David Johnston
That's a myth. There are multiple times when nations lost wars and
survived to write histories. Notably in the case of the American Civil
War, they actually managed to write something that persisted as the
dominant narrative for more than a century afterward.

What, "The War of Northern Aggression" ?

"American Civil War" and "War Between The States" are both compromises
between that and "War of the Southron Rebellion."
Binding up the wounds, and all that. I've always found "The Late
Unpleasantness" a particularly diplomatic, if pussyfooting euphemism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_American_Civil_War

In any case, I really wish that people who say things like "persisted
as the dominant narrative" would explain what they believe this
"dominant narrative" to be.

That it wasn't about slavery.

I figured that that was what you were thinking and if you do think
that you certainly did _not_ attend public schools in the South
because we were _not_ taught that it was about anything except
slavery.

Many people know it was about slavery but I've seen (and participated)
in long flame wars with some who claim it wasn't about slavery. At one
time I collected and posted about half-a-dozen speeches made by Southern
politicians during their secession votes where said IN SO MANY WORDS
that it was all about slavery and nothing but slavery. And still had
people claiming it wasn't. I have no wish to engage in such discussions
again.

"It was all about slavery" depends on what the meaning of "it" is.
No doubt *Secession* was all about slavery. I think the *War* which
the North waged to recapture the South was only partly about freeing
the slaves. After all, before secession, only a few radicals wanted
to free the slaves by force of arms. Didn't Lincoln say something like, if he could save the Union without freeing a single slave, he would do it?

Yes, he did but it quickly became clear that the only way the Union
could _remain_ united was if slavery was abolished.
As for "the War the North waged to recapture the South", the South
_started_ the war by firing on Fort Sumter and many who had supported
secession WANTED a war with the North.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.

I';m sure you know more about it than I do; all I know about history is
what I remember from high school and what I learned from reading time
travel stories. So we had the Civil War because the rebels attacked
Fort Sumter, not because Lincoln wanted to preserve the Union?

The two things aren't mutually exclusive. The reason he didn't withdraw
from Fort Sumter and insisted on resupplying it is because he wanted to
preserve the Union and was willing to fight. He was daring them to take
the first shot. They ill-advisedly took the dare.

If the

Post by Butch Malahide
Southerners had allowed Fort Sumter to remain as a hostile enclave (sorta
like Guantanamo?), then the Republicans would have been willing to let
the Southern States depart in peace?

We don't know. Fort Sumter solidified the support for going to war but
there might have been enough anyway. Of course if support had been
weaker, the North might have lost despite their edge in numbers and
resources through lack of sufficient motivation.

They've written a lot of stories

Post by Butch Malahide
where the South wins the war, none that I know of about the North and
South separating peacefully like Czechia and Slovakia.

Probably because that's the duller option.

[Kevrob]

Post by Butch Malahide
If the

Post by Butch Malahide
Southerners had allowed Fort Sumter to remain as a hostile enclave (sorta
like Guantanamo?), then the Republicans would have been willing to let
the Southern States depart in peace?

We don't know. Fort Sumter solidified the support for going to war but
there might have been enough anyway. Of course if support had been
weaker, the North might have lost despite their edge in numbers and
resources through lack of sufficient motivation.
They've written a lot of stories

Post by Butch Malahide
where the South wins the war, none that I know of about the North and
South separating peacefully like Czechia and Slovakia.

Probably because that's the duller option.

Nitpick: shots were fired as early as January, 1861,
at Pensacola, FL.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pensacola_(1861)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Barrancas#American_Civil_War

The Union never gave up Fort Pickens.

One alternative I have never seen explored much would have been
a total USA-CSA war NOT breaking out, with border skirmishing,
naval battles on the high seas, a fortified inter-continental border,
commando-style raids to "recover lost slaves," or "free bondsmen."
An inter-American "Cold War."

Any such standoff would be highly unstable. There were peace commisions
bruiting the idea that the Union and Confederacy could peacefully
separate, but handovers of Federal property in the secesh states,
and division of Federal debt would have to be worked out. Not to
mention extradition, etc. In Card's Alvin Maker series there is a
"Fugitive Slave Treaty," rather than a law, in his fragmented N America,
complete with slavecatchers with a "knack" for tracking runaways.

Clashes in the western territories would be endemic in a Cold War scenario,
over mineral finds, water, and routes for transcontinental railroads.
Proxy wars among the native tribes?

The Confederates with the most grandiose pals would want to
expand west to the Pacific, and there were Southern Californians
sympathetic to joinig the CSA, who had even before the secessions
from the USA in 1860, had petitioned Congress to split SoCal into
a separate territory, a real "Southland."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_in_the_American_Civil_War

Turtledove does deal with the inter-war period between his
"Great War" and his WWII analogue, with intrigues in Union
Kentucky, before its "anschluss." He also has the Rebs making
a deal with Mexico to get a Pacific port.

Kevin R

[Quadibloc]

Post by David Johnston

Post by Butch Malahide
They've written a lot of stories
where the South wins the war, none that I know of about the North and
South separating peacefully like Czechia and Slovakia.

Probably because that's the duller option.

That depends on which story you write.

Of course a story about Lincoln and Lee shaking hands and signing a peace
treaty would be lacking in drama.

But a story about a United States in 1920 - or even 2019 - where _black people
are still slaves_ and the war to free them is about to start would be full of
excitement. In fact, I think this story *has* been written, possibly more than
once.

John Savard

[David Johnston]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by David Johnston

Post by Butch Malahide
They've written a lot of stories
where the South wins the war, none that I know of about the North and
South separating peacefully like Czechia and Slovakia.

Probably because that's the duller option.

That depends on which story you write.

Nope. No war is always duller than war.

Post by Quadibloc
Of course a story about Lincoln and Lee shaking hands and signing a peace
treaty would be lacking in drama.
But a story about a United States in 1920 - or even 2019 - where _black people
are still slaves_ and the war to free them is about to start would be full of
excitement. In fact, I think this story *has* been written, possibly more than
once.

And always with a southern victory in the civil war for a reason.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Butch Malahide
"It was all about slavery" depends on what the meaning of "it" is.
No doubt *Secession* was all about slavery. I think the *War* which
the North waged to recapture the South was only partly about freeing
the slaves.

Oh, yes, that is quite true. The Civil War, from the point of view of the North,
was "about" keeping the United States as one strong united country so that it
would be able to resist attempts by Britain to reconquer it.

Which is why Britain, although having abolished slavery already, supported the
South in that war.

John Savard

[David Johnston]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Butch Malahide
"It was all about slavery" depends on what the meaning of "it" is.
No doubt *Secession* was all about slavery. I think the *War* which
the North waged to recapture the South was only partly about freeing
the slaves.

Oh, yes, that is quite true. The Civil War, from the point of view of the North,
was "about" keeping the United States as one strong united country so that it
would be able to resist attempts by Britain to reconquer it.
Which is why Britain, although having abolished slavery already, supported the
South in that war.

Britain didn't even recognize the South as a nation much less give it
any real support. They thought about supporting the South, but thinking
ain't doin'.

[Stephen Harker]

Post by David Johnston

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Butch Malahide
"It was all about slavery" depends on what the meaning of "it" is.
No doubt *Secession* was all about slavery. I think the *War* which
the North waged to recapture the South was only partly about freeing
the slaves.

Oh, yes, that is quite true. The Civil War, from the point of view of the North,
was "about" keeping the United States as one strong united country so that it
would be able to resist attempts by Britain to reconquer it.
Which is why Britain, although having abolished slavery already, supported the
South in that war.

Britain didn't even recognize the South as a nation much less give it
any real support. They thought about supporting the South, but
thinking ain't doin'.

According to CJ Bartlett _Defence and diplomacy: Britain and the Great
Powers 1815–1914_ while Palmerston would have welcomed a permanent
break-up of the Union, he was aware that powerful groups in Britain
would not countenance war in support of a slave state. Many of the
industrial magnates were Evangelical Christians and vehemently opposed
to slavery. Also the Admirals were less confident than Palmerston and
Canada seemed vulnerable.

[David Johnston]

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 17:31:02 -0800, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Kevrob

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by David Johnston
That's a myth. There are multiple times when nations lost wars and
survived to write histories. Notably in the case of the American Civil
War, they actually managed to write something that persisted as the
dominant narrative for more than a century afterward.

What, "The War of Northern Aggression" ?

"American Civil War" and "War Between The States" are both compromises
between that and "War of the Southron Rebellion."
Binding up the wounds, and all that. I've always found "The Late
Unpleasantness" a particularly diplomatic, if pussyfooting euphemism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_American_Civil_War

In any case, I really wish that people who say things like "persisted
as the dominant narrative" would explain what they believe this
"dominant narrative" to be.

That it wasn't about slavery.

I figured that that was what you were thinking

Wrong guy. And what I was thinking of was the portrayal of the war as a
romantic heroic cause.

[Christian Weisgerber]

On 2018-12-03, J Clarke <***@gmail.com> wrote:

[American Civil War]

Post by J. Clarke
I figured that that was what you were thinking and if you do think
that you certainly did _not_ attend public schools in the South
because we were _not_ taught that it was about anything except
slavery.

We were taught that it was about preserving the Union.
1980s, American History class, public high school, Kentucky.

[Titus G]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Kevrob

Post by Lynn McGuire

That's a myth.  There are multiple times when nations lost wars and
survived to write histories.  Notably in the case of the American Civil
War, they actually managed to write something that persisted as the
dominant narrative for more than a century afterward.

What, "The War of Northern Aggression" ?

"American Civil War" and "War Between The States" are both compromises
between that and "War of the Southron Rebellion."
Binding up the wounds, and all that.  I've always found "The Late
Unpleasantness" a particularly diplomatic, if pussyfooting euphemism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_American_Civil_War

In any case, I really wish that people who say things like "persisted
as the dominant narrative" would explain what they believe this
"dominant narrative" to be.

That it wasn't about slavery.

It obviously wasn't about money and power. No war ever has been or will
be unless you think like a conspiracy theorist.

[David Johnston]

Post by Titus G

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Kevrob

Post by Lynn McGuire

That's a myth.  There are multiple times when nations lost wars and
survived to write histories.  Notably in the case of the American Civil
War, they actually managed to write something that persisted as the
dominant narrative for more than a century afterward.

What, "The War of Northern Aggression" ?

"American Civil War" and "War Between The States" are both compromises
between that and "War of the Southron Rebellion."
Binding up the wounds, and all that.  I've always found "The Late
Unpleasantness" a particularly diplomatic, if pussyfooting euphemism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_American_Civil_War

In any case, I really wish that people who say things like "persisted
as the dominant narrative" would explain what they believe this
"dominant narrative" to be.

That it wasn't about slavery.

It obviously wasn't about money and power. No war ever has been or will
be unless you think like a conspiracy theorist.

Do you think there's no money and power in slavery?

[Titus G]

Post by David Johnston

Post by Titus G

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Kevrob

Post by Lynn McGuire

That's a myth.  There are multiple times when nations lost wars and
survived to write histories.  Notably in the case of the American Civil
War, they actually managed to write something that persisted as the
dominant narrative for more than a century afterward.

What, "The War of Northern Aggression" ?

"American Civil War" and "War Between The States" are both compromises
between that and "War of the Southron Rebellion."
Binding up the wounds, and all that.  I've always found "The Late
Unpleasantness" a particularly diplomatic, if pussyfooting euphemism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_American_Civil_War

In any case, I really wish that people who say things like "persisted
as the dominant narrative" would explain what they believe this
"dominant narrative" to be.

That it wasn't about slavery.

It obviously wasn't about money and power. No war ever has been or
will be unless you think like a conspiracy theorist.

Do you think there's no money and power in slavery?

No, just the opposite. I think the power and money aspect of slavery was
more important than the concern for coloured humans' rights.

[Titus G]

snip

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by J. Clarke
What the Solarians do is irrelevant--they lost, they don't get to
write the history.

That's a myth.  There are multiple times when nations lost wars and
survived to write histories.  Notably in the case of the American
Civil War, they actually managed to write something that persisted as
the dominant narrative for more than a century afterward.

What, "The War of Northern Aggression" ?
Lynn

Records show that the South enjoyed far more sunshine climate than the
North had weathered. Obviously Southern umbrellas were the original
aggressor so yet another proof that people who claim they lost so many
books after a brief spell of incontinence, that they now refer to it as
the Great Flood of '89, should be nominated to name only hysterical,
(never historical), events.

[Quadibloc]

If I learned German, it would be to read Bisguier's _Handbuch_ and some
of the earlier works on optics and lens design, not Perry Rhodan.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by m***@gmail.com
PR does have a bunch of weird stuff going on like this, and you
can see that not all of the writers have the same background in

The only one with a clue was Kurt Mahr, who had a physics degree.

Of the creators, K.H. Scheer had a fanboyish enthusiasm for gadgets
and big machinery. (It's impossible to shake the impression that
he really wished he'd been on the Bismarck.) Clark Darlton (=Walter
Ernsting) was science-illiterate and I think admitted as much.

I vaguely remember reading one of Ernsting's YA novels that involved
travel at relativistic speeds and time dilation effects. At some
point they also start traveling faster than light and observe the
hands of the clocks moving backwards. *Facepalm* Must have been
this one: _Mit Lichtgeschwindigkeit zu Alpha II_ (1974).

Presumably, time dilation must have been used a bunch of times in
PR, but the only sort-of instance I remember is the fate of the
CREST IV. At the end of the adventures in M87 (#350..399), having
dutifully served and her FTL engines burnt out, the CREST IV is
abandoned, accelerated to near light speed and pointed in the
direction of the Milky Way, to arrive there in... whatever the
estimate of M87's distance was at the time of writing... 30 million
years or something, but a lot less in her own frame of reference.
I think somebody later wrote one of those noncanonical PR paperbacks
about a team that went to recover her a few hundred years later,
when Terran FTL technology had become able to cover such distances.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by m***@gmail.com
PR does have a bunch of weird stuff going on like this, and you
can see that not all of the writers have the same background in

The only one with a clue was Kurt Mahr, who had a physics degree.
Of the creators, K.H. Scheer had a fanboyish enthusiasm for gadgets
and big machinery. (It's impossible to shake the impression that
he really wished he'd been on the Bismarck.) Clark Darlton (=Walter
Ernsting) was science-illiterate and I think admitted as much.
I vaguely remember reading one of Ernsting's YA novels that involved
travel at relativistic speeds and time dilation effects. At some
point they also start traveling faster than light and observe the
hands of the clocks moving backwards. *Facepalm* Must have been
this one: _Mit Lichtgeschwindigkeit zu Alpha II_ (1974).
Presumably, time dilation must have been used a bunch of times in
PR, but the only sort-of instance I remember is the fate of the
CREST IV. At the end of the adventures in M87 (#350..399), having
dutifully served and her FTL engines burnt out, the CREST IV is
abandoned, accelerated to near light speed and pointed in the
direction of the Milky Way, to arrive there in... whatever the
estimate of M87's distance was at the time of writing... 30 million
years or something, but a lot less in her own frame of reference.
I think somebody later wrote one of those noncanonical PR paperbacks
about a team that went to recover her a few hundred years later,
when Terran FTL technology had become able to cover such distances.

The instance I referenced upthread was when "It", "The Immortal Unknown"
(who has provided imortality to worthy Terrans, but not Arkonides
because they blew their chance) remarks casually to Rhodan that an
extra-galactic planet of humanoids is about to blow up as they try
to move the world back to the galaxy because of a simple super-science
wiring polarity mistake.

This upsets Rhodan who wants to fix things, so It transports them back
thousands of years in time and then puts them on an STL ship to Barkon
(the planet). Because of time dilation, the trip seems to go quickly
to Rhodan, and they arrive there basically back in "the present" and in
time to plug the plug in the other way.

Someone told me here that it didn't help: Hundreds of books later, Barkon
gets blown up anyway.

[D B Davis]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by m***@gmail.com
PR does have a bunch of weird stuff going on like this, and you
can see that not all of the writers have the same background in

The only one with a clue was Kurt Mahr, who had a physics degree.
Of the creators, K.H. Scheer had a fanboyish enthusiasm for gadgets
and big machinery. (It's impossible to shake the impression that
he really wished he'd been on the Bismarck.) Clark Darlton (=Walter
Ernsting) was science-illiterate and I think admitted as much.
I vaguely remember reading one of Ernsting's YA novels that involved
travel at relativistic speeds and time dilation effects. At some
point they also start traveling faster than light and observe the
hands of the clocks moving backwards. *Facepalm* Must have been
this one: _Mit Lichtgeschwindigkeit zu Alpha II_ (1974).
Presumably, time dilation must have been used a bunch of times in
PR, but the only sort-of instance I remember is the fate of the
CREST IV. At the end of the adventures in M87 (#350..399), having
dutifully served and her FTL engines burnt out, the CREST IV is
abandoned, accelerated to near light speed and pointed in the
direction of the Milky Way, to arrive there in... whatever the
estimate of M87's distance was at the time of writing... 30 million
years or something, but a lot less in her own frame of reference.
I think somebody later wrote one of those noncanonical PR paperbacks
about a team that went to recover her a few hundred years later,
when Terran FTL technology had become able to cover such distances.

My nascent _PR_ knowledge is limited. Only about one third of the
stories in The Third Power cycle have been read by me thus far. Allow me
to ask a question about "FTL technology" "a few hundred years later."
The "Stardust II," Rhodan's "Imperium Class" Arkonide cruiser, is
capable of FTL travel and can travel 34,000 years to reach Arkon. But
the "Stardust II" lacks the capability to reach M87, which is 30,000,000
years distant? Is that why Terra has to wait of a few hundred years?

✍

Thank you,

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by D B Davis
My nascent _PR_ knowledge is limited. Only about one third of the
stories in The Third Power cycle have been read by me thus far. Allow me
to ask a question about "FTL technology" "a few hundred years later."
The "Stardust II," Rhodan's "Imperium Class" Arkonide cruiser, is
capable of FTL travel and can travel 34,000 years to reach Arkon. But
the "Stardust II" lacks the capability to reach M87, which is 30,000,000
years distant? Is that why Terra has to wait of a few hundred years?

Over the course of K.H. Scheer's stewardship of _PR_, principally
the first 500 volumes, the Terrans fight an ever escalating series
of superior opponents whose technology they then absord: weapons,
shields, FTL drives. This produces a sequence of ever more powerful
FTL drives. Warning: Technobabble ahead. The early 5D jump drives
and the 4D/5D continuous flight drives that soon replace them are
endurance-limited to travel within a galaxy. Later they are paired
with intergalactic drives: 5D jump, 5D/6D continuous flight, 6D/7D
continuous flight.

Eventually, after William Voltz had taken over the series and given
it a new direction, somewhere in the vicinity of #1000 or so the
FTL technology was also cleaned up into a single 5D continuous drive
for both intra- and (slower) intergalactic travel, and the previous
higher-dimension superdrives were conveniently forgotten. This
technology remained essentially constant... until I stopped reading
around #1800.

Other forms of FTL travel:
* Teleportation (psychic), but limited to planetary or at most
interplanetary distances.
* Matter transmitters, including ones powered by whole stars and
covering intergalactic distances.

... and likely a few more I forgot.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Christian Weisgerber
Eventually, after William Voltz had taken over the series and given
it a new direction, somewhere in the vicinity of #1000 or so the

That's interesting. I didn't know he became the show runner. My memory
is that when his books started appearing in the US run, they were always
the "weird" ones: A planet where there was something in the air that
made you fat from breathing it, Khrest's death book featuring elephantoids
who were always havving to stop the action to find leaves to clean out
their trunks with, etc.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Christian Weisgerber
Eventually, after William Voltz had taken over the series and given
it a new direction, somewhere in the vicinity of #1000 or so the

That's interesting. I didn't know he became the show runner.

Starting in 1974/75 until his early death from cancer in 1984, he
reshaped the series enormously.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Voltz#Expos%C3%A9t%C3%A4tigkeit
[Minimally fixed up from DeepL's translation:]
Under his direction the basic tone of the series changed. While
the novels of the 60s with their predominantly military conflicts
had still been strongly influenced by the spirit of the Cold War,
now a humanistic direction came increasingly into play. Secrets
of the cosmos, the question of the origin and meaning of life in
the universe, or the spiritual development of mankind and its role
in the universe came to the fore. According to [German weekly]
STERN, the spirit of the 68's entered Perry Rhodan: "Until then
there was shooting, from now on there was brooding." During this
time many directions of the series were determined and a background
and overarching framework were created, which still penetrate and
shape Perry Rhodan today.

Voltz is also lauded for introducing complexer characters and in
general having been the series' finest individual writer.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Christian Weisgerber
Eventually, after William Voltz had taken over the series and given
it a new direction, somewhere in the vicinity of #1000 or so the

That's interesting. I didn't know he became the show runner.

Starting in 1974/75 until his early death from cancer in 1984, he
reshaped the series enormously.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Voltz#Expos%C3%A9t%C3%A4tigkeit
[Minimally fixed up from DeepL's translation:]
Under his direction the basic tone of the series changed. While
the novels of the 60s with their predominantly military conflicts
had still been strongly influenced by the spirit of the Cold War,
now a humanistic direction came increasingly into play. Secrets
of the cosmos, the question of the origin and meaning of life in
the universe, or the spiritual development of mankind and its role
in the universe came to the fore. According to [German weekly]
STERN, the spirit of the 68's entered Perry Rhodan: "Until then
there was shooting, from now on there was brooding." During this
time many directions of the series were determined and a background
and overarching framework were created, which still penetrate and
shape Perry Rhodan today.
Voltz is also lauded for introducing complexer characters and in
general having been the series' finest individual writer.

Interesting! Though I have to say, I don't think I would have liked
that shift in direction if the US translations had survived that long.

[Sjouke Burry]

Post by D B Davis

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by m***@gmail.com
PR does have a bunch of weird stuff going on like this, and you
can see that not all of the writers have the same background in

The only one with a clue was Kurt Mahr, who had a physics degree.
Of the creators, K.H. Scheer had a fanboyish enthusiasm for gadgets
and big machinery. (It's impossible to shake the impression that
he really wished he'd been on the Bismarck.) Clark Darlton (=Walter
Ernsting) was science-illiterate and I think admitted as much.
I vaguely remember reading one of Ernsting's YA novels that involved
travel at relativistic speeds and time dilation effects. At some
point they also start traveling faster than light and observe the
hands of the clocks moving backwards. *Facepalm* Must have been
this one: _Mit Lichtgeschwindigkeit zu Alpha II_ (1974).
Presumably, time dilation must have been used a bunch of times in
PR, but the only sort-of instance I remember is the fate of the
CREST IV. At the end of the adventures in M87 (#350..399), having
dutifully served and her FTL engines burnt out, the CREST IV is
abandoned, accelerated to near light speed and pointed in the
direction of the Milky Way, to arrive there in... whatever the
estimate of M87's distance was at the time of writing... 30 million
years or something, but a lot less in her own frame of reference.
I think somebody later wrote one of those noncanonical PR paperbacks
about a team that went to recover her a few hundred years later,
when Terran FTL technology had become able to cover such distances.

My nascent _PR_ knowledge is limited. Only about one third of the
stories in The Third Power cycle have been read by me thus far. Allow me
to ask a question about "FTL technology" "a few hundred years later."
The "Stardust II," Rhodan's "Imperium Class" Arkonide cruiser, is
capable of FTL travel and can travel 34,000 years to reach Arkon. But
the "Stardust II" lacks the capability to reach M87, which is 30,000,000
years distant? Is that why Terra has to wait of a few hundred years?
✍
Thank you,

The early FTL tech was a jump engine, with de- and re- formation.
Later, the ships entered super-space in a protecting shield, and used a
sort of rocket drive.
Location navigation is very different for both systems.