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[tor dot com] Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
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James Nicoll
2020-05-13 16:08:13 UTC
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Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
m***@sky.com
2020-05-13 17:40:58 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Classic SF got away with a message because of the story and the world-building. Some modern SF appears to win awards because of the message despite the lack of story or world-building.
o***@gmail.com
2020-05-13 18:09:31 UTC
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Post by m***@sky.com
Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Classic SF got away with a message because of the story and the world-building. Some modern SF appears to win awards because of the message despite the lack of story or world-building.
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all prime time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have never been exposed to STORIES.
Thomas Koenig
2020-05-13 18:16:54 UTC
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Post by o***@gmail.com
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all prime
time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have never been
exposed to STORIES.
Does The Expanse count?
Dimensional Traveler
2020-05-13 23:48:49 UTC
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Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by o***@gmail.com
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all prime
time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have never been
exposed to STORIES.
Does The Expanse count?
It "could", if it wasn't such a fooookin' soap.
Did you SEE the second season........???
The book was...ok...but heavily padded, under the guise of character development.
Just FYI the authors of The Expanse books are heavily involved in the TV
show. :)
--
<to be filled in at a later date>
o***@gmail.com
2020-05-16 23:53:10 UTC
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by o***@gmail.com
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all prime
time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have never been
exposed to STORIES.
Does The Expanse count?
It "could", if it wasn't such a fooookin' soap.
Did you SEE the second season........???
The book was...ok...but heavily padded, under the guise of character development.
Just FYI the authors of The Expanse books are heavily involved in the TV
show. :)
And the padding SHOWS !
Dimensional Traveler
2020-05-17 01:50:57 UTC
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Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by o***@gmail.com
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all prime
time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have never been
exposed to STORIES.
Does The Expanse count?
It "could", if it wasn't such a fooookin' soap.
Did you SEE the second season........???
The book was...ok...but heavily padded, under the guise of character development.
Just FYI the authors of The Expanse books are heavily involved in the TV
show. :)
And the padding SHOWS !
Actually, compared to the books the show zips thru the story.
--
<to be filled in at a later date>
Ninapenda Jibini
2020-05-17 00:03:38 UTC
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 1:16:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas Koenig
Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by o***@gmail.com
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all
prime time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have
never been exposed to STORIES.
Does The Expanse count?
It "could", if it wasn't such a fooookin' soap.
Did you SEE the second season........???
The book was...ok...but heavily padded, under the guise of
character development.
Just FYI the authors of The Expanse books are heavily involved
in the TV show. :)
As in, part of the writing staff. The part that the rest, for the
most part, listens to.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration


"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
-dsr-
2020-05-13 19:49:51 UTC
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Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by m***@sky.com
Classic SF got away with a message because of the story and the world-building. Some modern SF appears to win awards because of the message despite the lack of story or world-building.
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all prime time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have never been exposed to STORIES.
Au contraire: the most popular works have strong stories.

Let's ask Rotten Tomatoes: https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/guide/the-best-tv-shows-2019/

There are anthology shows including a reboot of The Twilight Zone. SF
and fantasy ranging from the absurd (Rick and Morty, What We Do in the
Shadows) to remarkably solid (Mr. Robot, Watchmen, The Good Place) and
some bridges between those (Good Omens).

The period pieces are all about stories. Star Trek Discovery's second season
was not the worst season of a Trek franchise.

There are some sitcoms, some soap operas -- though I would suggest that a well-
written soap opera can be a good story -- some sketch comedy / variety shows,
and one well-reviewed reality show. But those aren't the majority, not by a
long shot.

-dsr-
Magewolf
2020-05-13 21:35:24 UTC
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Post by -dsr-
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by m***@sky.com
Classic SF got away with a message because of the story and the world-building. Some modern SF appears to win awards because of the message despite the lack of story or world-building.
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all prime time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have never been exposed to STORIES.
Au contraire: the most popular works have strong stories.
Let's ask Rotten Tomatoes: https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/guide/the-best-tv-shows-2019/
There are anthology shows including a reboot of The Twilight Zone. SF
and fantasy ranging from the absurd (Rick and Morty, What We Do in the
Shadows) to remarkably solid (Mr. Robot, Watchmen, The Good Place) and
some bridges between those (Good Omens).
The period pieces are all about stories. Star Trek Discovery's second season
was not the worst season of a Trek franchise.
.
Post by -dsr-
-dsr-
Only because STD season one exists. And Watchmen(Watchmen babies in R
for Racism) was basically "Badly handled Agenda: The TV Show".



You have to love TOR.com. I responded to a comment that said "I doubt
the people who complain about SF not being apolitical enough will have
sufficient grasp of subtlety to recognize the true point of this
article."with " I think anybody able to read it should have no problem
understanding the smugness and strawmaning so do not worry about it.".
Mine was removed for violating their Moderation Policy while they left
the other one up even though it seems to break their policy "Not flame,
bait, or otherwise troll the comment threads. Under NO circumstances
should this be used as a place to insult, attack, demean, slander, or
otherwise hurt others.". Since it does demean and attack a group of
people who might disagree with the article.
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-05-13 21:47:19 UTC
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Post by m***@sky.com
Post by -dsr-
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by m***@sky.com
Classic SF got away with a message because of the story and the
world-building. Some modern SF appears to win awards because of the
message despite the lack of story or world-building.
Post by -dsr-
Post by o***@gmail.com
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all prime
time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have never been
exposed to STORIES.
Post by -dsr-
Au contraire: the most popular works have strong stories.
https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/guide/the-best-tv-shows-2019/
Post by -dsr-
There are anthology shows including a reboot of The Twilight Zone. SF
and fantasy ranging from the absurd (Rick and Morty, What We Do in the
Shadows) to remarkably solid (Mr. Robot, Watchmen, The Good Place) and
some bridges between those (Good Omens).
The period pieces are all about stories. Star Trek Discovery's second season
was not the worst season of a Trek franchise.
.
Post by -dsr-
-dsr-
Only because STD season one exists. And Watchmen(Watchmen babies in R
for Racism) was basically "Badly handled Agenda: The TV Show".
You have to love TOR.com. I responded to a comment that said "I doubt
the people who complain about SF not being apolitical enough will have
sufficient grasp of subtlety to recognize the true point of this
article."with " I think anybody able to read it should have no problem
understanding the smugness and strawmaning so do not worry about it.".
Mine was removed for violating their Moderation Policy while they left
the other one up even though it seems to break their policy "Not flame,
bait, or otherwise troll the comment threads. Under NO circumstances
should this be used as a place to insult, attack, demean, slander, or
otherwise hurt others.". Since it does demean and attack a group of
people who might disagree with the article.
As Jane Robinson used to put it, back in the day, "That's called
satahr. S-A-T-AHR-E."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
o***@gmail.com
2020-05-13 22:24:53 UTC
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Post by -dsr-
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by m***@sky.com
Classic SF got away with a message because of the story and the world-building. Some modern SF appears to win awards because of the message despite the lack of story or world-building.
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all prime time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have never been exposed to STORIES.
Au contraire: the most popular works have strong stories.
Let's ask Rotten Tomatoes: https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/guide/the-best-tv-shows-2019/
There are anthology shows including a reboot of The Twilight Zone. SF
and fantasy ranging from the absurd (Rick and Morty, What We Do in the
Shadows) to remarkably solid (Mr. Robot, Watchmen, The Good Place) and
some bridges between those (Good Omens).
The period pieces are all about stories. Star Trek Discovery's second season
was not the worst season of a Trek franchise.
There are some sitcoms, some soap operas -- though I would suggest that a well-
written soap opera can be a good story -- some sketch comedy / variety shows,
and one well-reviewed reality show. But those aren't the majority, not by a
long shot.
-dsr-
If we restricted SF novels to ONLY those that can tell a complete story in ONE VOLUME that weighs less than ten pounds........

Most shelves would be empty.

What........whatever........happened to WRITING ?

(...which is why Scalzi's early stuff was so good.......later he suffered from reading his reviews.....)
Paul S Person
2020-05-14 16:56:23 UTC
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Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Classic SF got away with a message because of the story and the world-building. Some modern SF appears to win awards because of the message despite the lack of story or world-building.
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all prime time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have never been exposed to STORIES.
I'm not sure that that's entirely true.

I happen to like animation, so I watch a lot of animated movies.

And the animated movies I tend to like the best are those that tell
stories really well.

And many of those are very popular.

So I'd say a lot of the younger set /have/ been exposed to stories.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Moriarty
2020-05-14 21:37:27 UTC
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Post by Paul S Person
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Classic SF got away with a message because of the story and the world-building. Some modern SF appears to win awards because of the message despite the lack of story or world-building.
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all prime time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have never been exposed to STORIES.
I'm not sure that that's entirely true.
It's not true at all. Just another old codger ranting at clouds about how much better things were in his day.

-Moriarty
Dimensional Traveler
2020-05-14 22:53:43 UTC
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Post by Moriarty
Post by Paul S Person
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Classic SF got away with a message because of the story and the world-building. Some modern SF appears to win awards because of the message despite the lack of story or world-building.
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all prime time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have never been exposed to STORIES.
I'm not sure that that's entirely true.
It's not true at all. Just another old codger ranting at clouds about how much better things were in his day.
Of course it was better to have to walk uphill both ways in a year round
blizzard to travel between school and home!
--
<to be filled in at a later date>
Peter Trei
2020-05-15 00:02:27 UTC
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Moriarty
Post by Paul S Person
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Classic SF got away with a message because of the story and the world-building. Some modern SF appears to win awards because of the message despite the lack of story or world-building.
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all prime time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have never been exposed to STORIES.
I'm not sure that that's entirely true.
It's not true at all. Just another old codger ranting at clouds about how much better things were in his day.
Of course it was better to have to walk uphill both ways in a year round
blizzard to travel between school and home!
Speaking from experience...

I did this when I was a kid. I lived in Sweden, and took public transport to school. To get to the
bus stop I had to walk down a steep hill. At the far end I had to climb a long outside staircase.
Returning home I would do the same thing in the opposite direction. In the winter I LITERALLY
walked uphill both ways, in the snow.

Pt
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-05-15 00:21:24 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Moriarty
Post by Paul S Person
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
Post by Moriarty
Post by Paul S Person
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by James Nicoll
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Classic SF got away with a message because of the story and the
world-building. Some modern SF appears to win awards because of the
message despite the lack of story or world-building.
Post by Moriarty
Post by Paul S Person
Post by o***@gmail.com
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all prime
time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have never been
exposed to STORIES.
Post by Moriarty
Post by Paul S Person
I'm not sure that that's entirely true.
It's not true at all. Just another old codger ranting at clouds about
how much better things were in his day.
Of course it was better to have to walk uphill both ways in a year round
blizzard to travel between school and home!
Well, we didn't put on weight as fast when we walked. (No blizzards
in Menlo Park, CA, though.)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2020-05-15 16:56:31 UTC
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On Thu, 14 May 2020 15:53:43 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Moriarty
Post by Paul S Person
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Classic SF got away with a message because of the story and the world-building. Some modern SF appears to win awards because of the message despite the lack of story or world-building.
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all prime time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have never been exposed to STORIES.
I'm not sure that that's entirely true.
It's not true at all. Just another old codger ranting at clouds about how much better things were in his day.
Of course it was better to have to walk uphill both ways in a year round
blizzard to travel between school and home!
I don't recall any blizzards, but I walked to-and-from school from
K-12 and most years in college, as they were all within a mile of
home.

Up and down hill, to be sure. Some snow and plenty of rain. And, most
memorably, even an earthquake which actually /buckled the sidewalk/
while I was walking toward that part of it. Quite exciting!
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
John Halpenny
2020-05-15 17:12:31 UTC
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Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 14 May 2020 15:53:43 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
I don't recall any blizzards, but I walked to-and-from school from
K-12 and most years in college, as they were all within a mile of
home.
Up and down hill, to be sure. Some snow and plenty of rain. And, most
memorably, even an earthquake which actually /buckled the sidewalk/
while I was walking toward that part of it. Quite exciting!
--
My school was a mile and a half away and we had winter. Does that count as "three miles both ways in the snow"?

John
o***@gmail.com
2020-05-16 23:57:31 UTC
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Moriarty
Post by Paul S Person
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Classic SF got away with a message because of the story and the world-building. Some modern SF appears to win awards because of the message despite the lack of story or world-building.
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all prime time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have never been exposed to STORIES.
I'm not sure that that's entirely true.
It's not true at all. Just another old codger ranting at clouds about how much better things were in his day.
Of course it was better to have to walk uphill both ways in a year round
blizzard to travel between school and home!
Didn't you ?
Dimensional Traveler
2020-05-17 01:51:48 UTC
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Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Moriarty
Post by Paul S Person
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Classic SF got away with a message because of the story and the world-building. Some modern SF appears to win awards because of the message despite the lack of story or world-building.
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all prime time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have never been exposed to STORIES.
I'm not sure that that's entirely true.
It's not true at all. Just another old codger ranting at clouds about how much better things were in his day.
Of course it was better to have to walk uphill both ways in a year round
blizzard to travel between school and home!
Didn't you ?
Of course I did! How did you think I knew it was better?
--
<to be filled in at a later date>
Magewolf
2020-05-17 16:51:09 UTC
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Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Moriarty
Post by Paul S Person
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Classic SF got away with a message because of the story and the
world-building. Some modern SF appears to win awards because of
the message despite the lack of story or world-building.
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all prime
time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have never been
exposed to STORIES.
I'm not sure that that's entirely true.
It's not true at all. Just another old codger ranting at clouds
about how much better things were in his day.
Of course it was better to have to walk uphill both ways in a year round
blizzard to travel between school and home!
Didn't you ?
Of course I did!  How did you think I knew it was better?
For a while when I was doing auditing for my father I had to walk uphill
to get to work and back to the apartment he was renting for me. The
apartment building was almost midway of a slope with a bus stop at the
top of the hill. Since I was only going to be there a week I saw no
reason to get a rental, it was a bit more trouble back then. So I would
walk up to the bus stop in the morning and one of the workers would drop
me off at the bottom of the slope in the evening. It never snowed while
I was there though.
James Nicoll
2020-05-17 17:04:27 UTC
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Post by Magewolf
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Moriarty
Post by Paul S Person
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Classic SF got away with a message because of the story and the
world-building. Some modern SF appears to win awards because of
the message despite the lack of story or world-building.
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all prime
time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have never been
exposed to STORIES.
I'm not sure that that's entirely true.
It's not true at all. Just another old codger ranting at clouds
about how much better things were in his day.
Of course it was better to have to walk uphill both ways in a year round
blizzard to travel between school and home!
Didn't you ?
Of course I did!  How did you think I knew it was better?
For a while when I was doing auditing for my father I had to walk uphill
to get to work and back to the apartment he was renting for me. The
apartment building was almost midway of a slope with a bus stop at the
top of the hill. Since I was only going to be there a week I saw no
reason to get a rental, it was a bit more trouble back then. So I would
walk up to the bus stop in the morning and one of the workers would drop
me off at the bottom of the slope in the evening. It never snowed while
I was there though.
Until 1978, the University of Waterloo had a strict never closing no matter
what policy. In January 1978, the region got hit with a historic blizzard,
despite which my dad still had to haul ass into Waterloo to teach courses
nobody sensible was going to show up for. I caught a ride so I could go
book shopping because of course it never occurred to me shops would close
as my school had.

Insert close encounter with fully-loaded gravel truck.

Because my face was covered in blood, the paramedics insisted on
taking me to the hospital, while my dad continued on to work.
There were a lot of casualties, so it took a while for the doctors
to look at me. All the blood was from a hilariousy small nick on
my scalp. I did have four broken ribs and a lot of pulled muscles
from breaking my seat belt and bouncing off the dash but there
was not much they could do about that, except to advise me not to
do anything strenuous.

Only problem was by the time I got kicked out of the hospital, the
buses had stopped running and so had the cabs. The only way for me
to get from the hospital to the university was to walk 4 km (more
since the straight line route was not an option), in a blizzard,
with pulled muscles and four broken ribs. So I did.

On the plus side, almost every walk since then has been easier.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
William Hyde
2020-05-17 22:10:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Magewolf
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Moriarty
Post by Paul S Person
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Classic SF got away with a message because of the story and the
world-building. Some modern SF appears to win awards because of
the message despite the lack of story or world-building.
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all prime
time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have never been
exposed to STORIES.
I'm not sure that that's entirely true.
It's not true at all. Just another old codger ranting at clouds
about how much better things were in his day.
Of course it was better to have to walk uphill both ways in a year round
blizzard to travel between school and home!
Didn't you ?
Of course I did!  How did you think I knew it was better?
For a while when I was doing auditing for my father I had to walk uphill
to get to work and back to the apartment he was renting for me. The
apartment building was almost midway of a slope with a bus stop at the
top of the hill. Since I was only going to be there a week I saw no
reason to get a rental, it was a bit more trouble back then. So I would
walk up to the bus stop in the morning and one of the workers would drop
me off at the bottom of the slope in the evening. It never snowed while
I was there though.
Until 1978, the University of Waterloo had a strict never closing no matter
what policy. In January 1978, the region got hit with a historic blizzard,
despite which my dad still had to haul ass into Waterloo to teach courses
nobody sensible was going to show up for. I caught a ride so I could go
book shopping because of course it never occurred to me shops would close
as my school had.
Insert close encounter with fully-loaded gravel truck.
Because my face was covered in blood, the paramedics insisted on
taking me to the hospital, while my dad continued on to work.
There were a lot of casualties, so it took a while for the doctors
to look at me. All the blood was from a hilariousy small nick on
my scalp. I did have four broken ribs and a lot of pulled muscles
from breaking my seat belt and bouncing off the dash but there
was not much they could do about that, except to advise me not to
do anything strenuous.
Only problem was by the time I got kicked out of the hospital, the
buses had stopped running and so had the cabs. The only way for me
to get from the hospital to the university was to walk 4 km (more
since the straight line route was not an option), in a blizzard,
with pulled muscles and four broken ribs. So I did.
On the plus side, almost every walk since then has been easier.
Almost?

I sprained my ankle very badly, tumbling down a huge snow barrier which was blocking my way to the physics building. Sounds like the same day. It seems that Nicoll events throw off waves, in this case at 1/1000 or so amplitude. I estimate that I was no more than five miles away and an hour or so later. Science!

Must not have been the same hospital though, I got an X-ray after a brief wait and was out in under an hour with a spiffy new cane.


William Hyde
James Nicoll
2020-05-18 00:42:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by James Nicoll
Until 1978, the University of Waterloo had a strict never closing no matter
what policy. In January 1978, the region got hit with a historic blizzard,
despite which my dad still had to haul ass into Waterloo to teach courses
nobody sensible was going to show up for. I caught a ride so I could go
book shopping because of course it never occurred to me shops would close
as my school had.
Insert close encounter with fully-loaded gravel truck.
Because my face was covered in blood, the paramedics insisted on
taking me to the hospital, while my dad continued on to work.
There were a lot of casualties, so it took a while for the doctors
to look at me. All the blood was from a hilariousy small nick on
my scalp. I did have four broken ribs and a lot of pulled muscles
from breaking my seat belt and bouncing off the dash but there
was not much they could do about that, except to advise me not to
do anything strenuous.
Only problem was by the time I got kicked out of the hospital, the
buses had stopped running and so had the cabs. The only way for me
to get from the hospital to the university was to walk 4 km (more
since the straight line route was not an option), in a blizzard,
with pulled muscles and four broken ribs. So I did.
On the plus side, almost every walk since then has been easier.
Almost?
The day I spent walking on torn knee ligaments was worse.
Post by William Hyde
I sprained my ankle very badly, tumbling down a huge snow barrier which was blocking my way to
the physics building. Sounds like the same day. It seems that Nicoll events throw off waves,
in this case at 1/1000 or so amplitude. I estimate that I was no more than five miles away and
an hour or so later. Science!
Must not have been the same hospital though, I got an X-ray after a brief wait and was out in
under an hour with a spiffy new cane.
My accident was a side effect of multicar pileup over the next hill (gravel truck was
trying to keep more vehicles from sliding into the pile. I guess successfully) so I
showed up as part of a large group of people. Maybe that was the issue?
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2020-05-18 05:53:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by William Hyde
Post by James Nicoll
Until 1978, the University of Waterloo had a strict never closing no matter
what policy. In January 1978, the region got hit with a historic blizzard,
despite which my dad still had to haul ass into Waterloo to teach courses
nobody sensible was going to show up for. I caught a ride so I could go
book shopping because of course it never occurred to me shops would close
as my school had.
Insert close encounter with fully-loaded gravel truck.
Because my face was covered in blood, the paramedics insisted on
taking me to the hospital, while my dad continued on to work.
There were a lot of casualties, so it took a while for the doctors
to look at me. All the blood was from a hilariousy small nick on
my scalp. I did have four broken ribs and a lot of pulled muscles
from breaking my seat belt and bouncing off the dash but there
was not much they could do about that, except to advise me not to
do anything strenuous.
Only problem was by the time I got kicked out of the hospital, the
buses had stopped running and so had the cabs. The only way for me
to get from the hospital to the university was to walk 4 km (more
since the straight line route was not an option), in a blizzard,
with pulled muscles and four broken ribs. So I did.
On the plus side, almost every walk since then has been easier.
Almost?
The day I spent walking on torn knee ligaments was worse.
I've done that! Well, one torn ligament, anyway; my left leg was
fine. It's remarkably little fun. Especially since I had to walk
down three flights of stairs to get to street level.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
h***@gmail.com
2020-05-18 06:47:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by James Nicoll
Post by William Hyde
Post by James Nicoll
Until 1978, the University of Waterloo had a strict never closing no matter
what policy. In January 1978, the region got hit with a historic blizzard,
despite which my dad still had to haul ass into Waterloo to teach courses
nobody sensible was going to show up for. I caught a ride so I could go
book shopping because of course it never occurred to me shops would close
as my school had.
Insert close encounter with fully-loaded gravel truck.
Because my face was covered in blood, the paramedics insisted on
taking me to the hospital, while my dad continued on to work.
There were a lot of casualties, so it took a while for the doctors
to look at me. All the blood was from a hilariousy small nick on
my scalp. I did have four broken ribs and a lot of pulled muscles
from breaking my seat belt and bouncing off the dash but there
was not much they could do about that, except to advise me not to
do anything strenuous.
Only problem was by the time I got kicked out of the hospital, the
buses had stopped running and so had the cabs. The only way for me
to get from the hospital to the university was to walk 4 km (more
since the straight line route was not an option), in a blizzard,
with pulled muscles and four broken ribs. So I did.
On the plus side, almost every walk since then has been easier.
Almost?
The day I spent walking on torn knee ligaments was worse.
I've done that! Well, one torn ligament, anyway; my left leg was
fine. It's remarkably little fun. Especially since I had to walk
down three flights of stairs to get to street level.
I've just done ankle ligaments pretty badly (we had somebody who'd done medicine with my father and practised medicine as a GP for 20 years visiting, when she got the shoe and sock off she gasped)

Driving home from the squash court was not fun
William Hyde
2020-05-18 18:38:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by William Hyde
Post by James Nicoll
Until 1978, the University of Waterloo had a strict never closing no matter
what policy. In January 1978, the region got hit with a historic blizzard,
despite which my dad still had to haul ass into Waterloo to teach courses
nobody sensible was going to show up for. I caught a ride so I could go
book shopping because of course it never occurred to me shops would close
as my school had.
Insert close encounter with fully-loaded gravel truck.
Because my face was covered in blood, the paramedics insisted on
taking me to the hospital, while my dad continued on to work.
There were a lot of casualties, so it took a while for the doctors
to look at me. All the blood was from a hilariousy small nick on
my scalp. I did have four broken ribs and a lot of pulled muscles
from breaking my seat belt and bouncing off the dash but there
was not much they could do about that, except to advise me not to
do anything strenuous.
Only problem was by the time I got kicked out of the hospital, the
buses had stopped running and so had the cabs. The only way for me
to get from the hospital to the university was to walk 4 km (more
since the straight line route was not an option), in a blizzard,
with pulled muscles and four broken ribs. So I did.
On the plus side, almost every walk since then has been easier.
Almost?
The day I spent walking on torn knee ligaments was worse.
I'm beginning to feel as if I've never been injured.
Post by James Nicoll
Post by William Hyde
I sprained my ankle very badly, tumbling down a huge snow barrier which was blocking my way to
the physics building. Sounds like the same day. It seems that Nicoll events throw off waves,
in this case at 1/1000 or so amplitude. I estimate that I was no more than five miles away and
an hour or so later. Science!
Must not have been the same hospital though, I got an X-ray after a brief wait and was out in
under an hour with a spiffy new cane.
My accident was a side effect of multicar pileup over the next hill (gravel truck was
trying to keep more vehicles from sliding into the pile. I guess successfully) so I
showed up as part of a large group of people. Maybe that was the issue?
On searching my memory further, it seems I hopped to work (I was nearly there) and did some stuff, ignoring the swelling in my ankle which at this point hurt only mildly. I believe it was well after 10 PM before I got to the hospital (driven my my landlord, Wulf). That could explain the fast service on such a day.


William Hyde

o***@gmail.com
2020-05-16 23:56:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Moriarty
Post by Paul S Person
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Classic SF got away with a message because of the story and the world-building. Some modern SF appears to win awards because of the message despite the lack of story or world-building.
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all prime time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have never been exposed to STORIES.
I'm not sure that that's entirely true.
It's not true at all. Just another old codger ranting at clouds about how much better things were in his day.
....your forgot sexist, racist, homophobic, etc.......
o***@gmail.com
2020-05-16 23:54:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Classic SF got away with a message because of the story and the world-building. Some modern SF appears to win awards because of the message despite the lack of story or world-building.
In the digital (read facebook, twits, etc) age......and all prime time tv being soaps.......today's younger readers have never been exposed to STORIES.
I'm not sure that that's entirely true.
I happen to like animation, so I watch a lot of animated movies.
And the animated movies I tend to like the best are those that tell
stories really well.
And many of those are very popular.
So I'd say a lot of the younger set /have/ been exposed to stories.
ok
Lynn McGuire
2020-05-14 23:20:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
I am fairly sure that I have read every book presented there in the
visual aid.

And yes, every single one of them had an agenda. Especially Heinlein
("Farnham's Freehold" and "Sixth Column" come to mind immediately).

Lynn
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-05-15 00:22:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
I am fairly sure that I have read every book presented there in the
visual aid.
And yes, every single one of them had an agenda. Especially Heinlein
("Farnham's Freehold" and "Sixth Column" come to mind immediately).
Yeah, that's the point. They all had an agenda of some sort, not
necessarily political. James's tongue was so far into his cheek
that one could see it wriggling out his ear.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Titus G
2020-05-15 01:31:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
I am fairly sure that I have read every book presented there in the
visual aid.
And yes, every single one of them had an agenda. Especially Heinlein
("Farnham's Freehold" and "Sixth Column" come to mind immediately).
Yeah, that's the point. They all had an agenda of some sort, not
necessarily political. James's tongue was so far into his cheek
that one could see it wriggling out his ear.
He practises a different form of glossolalia.
Magewolf
2020-05-15 20:37:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
I am fairly sure that I have read every book presented there in the
visual aid.
And yes, every single one of them had an agenda.  Especially Heinlein
("Farnham's Freehold" and "Sixth Column" come to mind immediately).
Yeah, that's the point.  They all had an agenda of some sort, not
necessarily political.  James's tongue was so far into his cheek
that one could see it wriggling out his ear.
He practises a different form of glossolalia.
The problem is that this is such a tired old hat,especially if you
follow comicbook news. I can think of over twenty articles with the same
message "Agenda driven comics have always been around you just do not
like ours because you are a manbaby nazi who hates women"( I am not
making that up, though usually they say Alt-right manbaby who hates
women) that brings up Secret Empire with Captain America, Hard Travelin'
Heroes with Green Lantern and Green Arrow, and maybe some of the lesser
known if they take more than five minutes to do their research for the
article.

What they never bring up is that most of the Agenda driven stories back
then were crap(that sold like crap) that nobody remembers. So it is not
a change that the vast majority of Agenda driven stories fail miserably
it's just that they make up such a large percentage of the current books
that when they fail they actually hurt the companies that publish them.
And the other difference is that back then when a writer wrote a crash
and burn Agenda story they were backhanded and told to write something
that sold or they were fired. Now they just get handed another book to
drive into the ground.
Chrysi Cat
2020-05-16 13:59:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Magewolf
Post by Titus G
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
I am fairly sure that I have read every book presented there in the
visual aid.
And yes, every single one of them had an agenda.  Especially Heinlein
("Farnham's Freehold" and "Sixth Column" come to mind immediately).
Yeah, that's the point.  They all had an agenda of some sort, not
necessarily political.  James's tongue was so far into his cheek
that one could see it wriggling out his ear.
He practises a different form of glossolalia.
The problem is that this is such a tired old hat,especially if you
follow comicbook news. I can think of over twenty articles with the same
message "Agenda driven comics have always been around you just do not
like ours because you are a manbaby nazi who hates women"( I am not
making that up, though usually they say Alt-right manbaby who hates
women) that brings up Secret Empire with Captain America, Hard Travelin'
Heroes with Green Lantern and Green Arrow, and maybe some of the lesser
known if they take more than five minutes to do their research for the
article.
What they never bring up is that most of the Agenda driven stories back
then were crap(that sold like crap) that nobody remembers.  So it is not
a change that the vast majority of Agenda driven stories fail miserably
it's just that they make up such a large percentage of the current books
that when they fail they actually hurt the companies that publish them.
And the other difference is that back then when a writer wrote a crash
and burn Agenda story they were backhanded and told to write something
that sold or they were fired.  Now they just get handed another book to
drive into the ground.
Oh, joy. I could have gone all decade without knowing there's a
ComicsGate true believer who still pays for actual Usenet.
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Quadibloc
2020-05-15 00:48:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
And yes, every single one of them had an agenda. Especially Heinlein
("Farnham's Freehold" and "Sixth Column" come to mind immediately).
Farnham's Freehold certainly is one of the champions if one were holding a
competition for most politically incorrect work by a major science-fiction
author.

However, if anyone were to seriously suggest that Heinlein had an agenda to
promote the disenfranchisement of blacks, because they were cannibals at heart
and a fifth column for Islam, in my opinion that person would be seriously
wrong. (There's other evidence that Heinlein was strongly opposed to racism, as
is well known here.)

If he ddidn't have _that_ agenda, then there's nothing left except maybe the
non-controversial "nuclear war is a bad thing because it hurts people".

Realistically accepting that white people aren't the only people the collapse of
civilization might bring out the worst in... is something shied away from today,
because of the chance of being misunderstood, but it is not necessarily active
promotion of racism.

John Savard
David Johnston
2020-05-15 03:37:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Lynn McGuire
And yes, every single one of them had an agenda. Especially Heinlein
("Farnham's Freehold" and "Sixth Column" come to mind immediately).
Farnham's Freehold certainly is one of the champions if one were holding a
competition for most politically incorrect work by a major science-fiction
author.
However, if anyone were to seriously suggest that Heinlein had an agenda to
promote the disenfranchisement of blacks, because they were cannibals at heart
and a fifth column for Islam, in my opinion that person would be seriously
wrong. (There's other evidence that Heinlein was strongly opposed to racism, as
is well known here.)
If he ddidn't have _that_ agenda, then there's nothing left except maybe the
non-controversial "nuclear war is a bad thing because it hurts people".
Not...exactly. I find "Farnam's Freehold" to be Heinlein's equivalent
of "Angel One" and "The Outcast", two episodes of Star Trek TNG who
tried to illuminate modern society (at the time) by reversing social
problems. In "Angel One" the crew deal with a world where women are
bigger and stronger than the local men and are alarmed by the arrival of
some giant men from Earth who aren't prepared accept subordinate status
and spark the invention of a "men's liberation" movement. In "The
Outcast" a society that has rejected gender differentiation deals with
people who gender themselves as "male or "female" by brainwashing the
sexual deviance out of them.

And despite the best intentions, the results sucked. In Heinlein's case
the idea was to present the reader with the question "What if you were
in the position of modern day black people in the U.S., as an oppressed
minority." Nice idea in theory. Lousy in execution like the
aforementioned TNG episodes. Just because a story has an agenda
doesn't mean that it will succeed. Other people did it better, although
those other people also did it later.

Anyone remember the title of that novel where Europeans were imported as
slaves in a North America colonized by China, and are now demonstrating
for civil rights. It had this one scene where a young woman was
standing on one leg as a an act of nonviolent protest and had to wait
out an army commander who decided to just stand in front of her on both
of his feet.

Of course one thing that helped undermine Heinlein's attempt was that he
had that little quirk where almost everything he wrote for adults had to
contain a violation of a social stricture of his time. There had to be
group marriage, or incest, or public nudity, or a romance between a man
and a child, or...in this case...cannibalism.
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-05-15 04:25:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Lynn McGuire
And yes, every single one of them had an agenda. Especially Heinlein
("Farnham's Freehold" and "Sixth Column" come to mind immediately).
Farnham's Freehold certainly is one of the champions if one were holding a
competition for most politically incorrect work by a major science-fiction
author.
However, if anyone were to seriously suggest that Heinlein had an agenda to
promote the disenfranchisement of blacks, because they were cannibals at heart
and a fifth column for Islam, in my opinion that person would be seriously
wrong. (There's other evidence that Heinlein was strongly opposed to
racism, as
Post by Quadibloc
is well known here.)
If he ddidn't have _that_ agenda, then there's nothing left except maybe the
non-controversial "nuclear war is a bad thing because it hurts people".
Not...exactly. I find "Farnam's Freehold" to be Heinlein's equivalent
of "Angel One" and "The Outcast", two episodes of Star Trek TNG who
tried to illuminate modern society (at the time) by reversing social
problems. In "Angel One" the crew deal with a world where women are
bigger and stronger than the local men and are alarmed by the arrival of
some giant men from Earth who aren't prepared accept subordinate status
and spark the invention of a "men's liberation" movement. In "The
Outcast" a society that has rejected gender differentiation deals with
people who gender themselves as "male or "female" by brainwashing the
sexual deviance out of them.
And despite the best intentions, the results sucked. In Heinlein's case
the idea was to present the reader with the question "What if you were
in the position of modern day black people in the U.S., as an oppressed
minority." Nice idea in theory. Lousy in execution like the
aforementioned TNG episodes. Just because a story has an agenda
doesn't mean that it will succeed. Other people did it better, although
those other people also did it later.
Anyone remember the title of that novel where Europeans were imported as
slaves in a North America colonized by China, and are now demonstrating
for civil rights. It had this one scene where a young woman was
standing on one leg as a an act of nonviolent protest and had to wait
out an army commander who decided to just stand in front of her on both
of his feet.
_White Lotus_ by John Hersey. I had a copy of that book sitting
around for years. The trouble with it was what is frequently
what's the trouble when somebody who is used to writing literary
fiction tries his hand at a genre: they don't know how the genre
works. One thing that can happen is reinventing the wheel: I'm
sure we can all come up with examples. (Lawrence Block's _Random
Walk_, e.g.)

Bu in Hersey's case, he is so anxious to say "how would you feel
if it were to happen to you?" that he compresses the entire history
of African-Americans, from being captured, transported to another
continent, enslaved, liberated, living at a disadvantage as a
sharecropper, and finally beginning a civil-rights movement ...
all within a decade or so of the life of one woman.

Basically the same mistake as _Farnham's Freehold,_ only Heinlein
ought to have known better.
Post by Quadibloc
Of course one thing that helped undermine Heinlein's attempt was that he
had that little quirk where almost everything he wrote for adults had to
contain a violation of a social stricture of his time. There had to be
group marriage, or incest, or public nudity, or a romance between a man
and a child, or...in this case...cannibalism.
He had reached the point where anything he wrote would get
published, and I'm not sure whether he was trying to find out
just how far he could push the limits, or whether in his second
childhood we was channeling the little boy who utters the naughty
words at the top of his voice when the bishop and his wife have
come to tea.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
J. Clarke
2020-05-15 11:53:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Lynn McGuire
And yes, every single one of them had an agenda. Especially Heinlein
("Farnham's Freehold" and "Sixth Column" come to mind immediately).
Farnham's Freehold certainly is one of the champions if one were holding a
competition for most politically incorrect work by a major science-fiction
author.
However, if anyone were to seriously suggest that Heinlein had an agenda to
promote the disenfranchisement of blacks, because they were cannibals at heart
and a fifth column for Islam, in my opinion that person would be seriously
wrong. (There's other evidence that Heinlein was strongly opposed to
racism, as
Post by Quadibloc
is well known here.)
If he ddidn't have _that_ agenda, then there's nothing left except maybe the
non-controversial "nuclear war is a bad thing because it hurts people".
Not...exactly. I find "Farnam's Freehold" to be Heinlein's equivalent
of "Angel One" and "The Outcast", two episodes of Star Trek TNG who
tried to illuminate modern society (at the time) by reversing social
problems. In "Angel One" the crew deal with a world where women are
bigger and stronger than the local men and are alarmed by the arrival of
some giant men from Earth who aren't prepared accept subordinate status
and spark the invention of a "men's liberation" movement. In "The
Outcast" a society that has rejected gender differentiation deals with
people who gender themselves as "male or "female" by brainwashing the
sexual deviance out of them.
And despite the best intentions, the results sucked. In Heinlein's case
the idea was to present the reader with the question "What if you were
in the position of modern day black people in the U.S., as an oppressed
minority." Nice idea in theory. Lousy in execution like the
aforementioned TNG episodes. Just because a story has an agenda
doesn't mean that it will succeed. Other people did it better, although
those other people also did it later.
Anyone remember the title of that novel where Europeans were imported as
slaves in a North America colonized by China, and are now demonstrating
for civil rights. It had this one scene where a young woman was
standing on one leg as a an act of nonviolent protest and had to wait
out an army commander who decided to just stand in front of her on both
of his feet.
_White Lotus_ by John Hersey. I had a copy of that book sitting
around for years. The trouble with it was what is frequently
what's the trouble when somebody who is used to writing literary
fiction tries his hand at a genre: they don't know how the genre
works. One thing that can happen is reinventing the wheel: I'm
sure we can all come up with examples. (Lawrence Block's _Random
Walk_, e.g.)
Bu in Hersey's case, he is so anxious to say "how would you feel
if it were to happen to you?" that he compresses the entire history
of African-Americans, from being captured, transported to another
continent, enslaved, liberated, living at a disadvantage as a
sharecropper, and finally beginning a civil-rights movement ...
all within a decade or so of the life of one woman.
Basically the same mistake as _Farnham's Freehold,_ only Heinlein
ought to have known better.
Post by Quadibloc
Of course one thing that helped undermine Heinlein's attempt was that he
had that little quirk where almost everything he wrote for adults had to
contain a violation of a social stricture of his time. There had to be
group marriage, or incest, or public nudity, or a romance between a man
and a child, or...in this case...cannibalism.
He had reached the point where anything he wrote would get
published, and I'm not sure whether he was trying to find out
just how far he could push the limits, or whether in his second
childhood we was channeling the little boy who utters the naughty
words at the top of his voice when the bishop and his wife have
come to tea.
I"m sorry, but that "romance between a man and a child" as you call it
was a popular trope at the time it was written, it did not contain a
"violation of a social stricture".

Next time you're looking for a movie to watch, try "Gigi" with Maurice
Chevalier and Leslie Caron, among others.
Quadibloc
2020-05-16 07:39:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
I"m sorry, but that "romance between a man and a child" as you call it
was a popular trope at the time it was written, it did not contain a
"violation of a social stricture".
Next time you're looking for a movie to watch, try "Gigi" with Maurice
Chevalier and Leslie Caron, among others.
In the Heinlein story, the children were also Lazarus Long's _daughters_.

In the movie Gigi, the man was acquainted with Gigi when she _was_ a child, but
had now become romantically attracted to her after she had become a woman.
Although she was an adult, as he remembered her as a child, he still had doubts
about the appropriateness of the relationship, which was one of the factors
leading to the movie having a plot.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2020-05-16 08:13:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 16 May 2020 00:39:48 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
I"m sorry, but that "romance between a man and a child" as you call it
was a popular trope at the time it was written, it did not contain a
"violation of a social stricture".
Next time you're looking for a movie to watch, try "Gigi" with Maurice
Chevalier and Leslie Caron, among others.
In the Heinlein story, the children were also Lazarus Long's _daughters_.
That's very late Heinlein, the one that's usually cited is The Door
into Summer.
Post by Quadibloc
In the movie Gigi, the man was acquainted with Gigi when she _was_ a child, but
had now become romantically attracted to her after she had become a woman.
Although she was an adult, as he remembered her as a child, he still had doubts
about the appropriateness of the relationship, which was one of the factors
leading to the movie having a plot.
John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-05-16 13:54:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 16 May 2020 00:39:48 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
I"m sorry, but that "romance between a man and a child" as you call it
was a popular trope at the time it was written, it did not contain a
"violation of a social stricture".
Next time you're looking for a movie to watch, try "Gigi" with Maurice
Chevalier and Leslie Caron, among others.
In the Heinlein story, the children were also Lazarus Long's _daughters_.
That's very late Heinlein, the one that's usually cited is The Door
into Summer.
In which (a) the child says "If you take cold-sleep I'll never
see you again!" (b) the man says, "You can take cold-sleep too
when you're grown up," (c) the chld says, "If I do, when I grow up
will you marry me?" (d) the man says, "Yes."

He's willing to marry his best friend, but only when she's an
adult.

I could also dig into the files and quote somebody's analysis of
what would happen to the child if she *doesn't* take cold-sleep
but stays in Barstow for the rest of her life. Not attractive.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
h***@gmail.com
2020-05-16 11:19:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
I"m sorry, but that "romance between a man and a child" as you call it
was a popular trope at the time it was written, it did not contain a
"violation of a social stricture".
Next time you're looking for a movie to watch, try "Gigi" with Maurice
Chevalier and Leslie Caron, among others.
In the Heinlein story, the children were also Lazarus Long's _daughters_.
Cloned with a mirrored X Chromosome, not daughters as I recall it
David Johnston
2020-05-16 17:40:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
I"m sorry, but that "romance between a man and a child" as you call it
was a popular trope at the time it was written, it did not contain a
"violation of a social stricture".
Next time you're looking for a movie to watch, try "Gigi" with Maurice
Chevalier and Leslie Caron, among others.
In the Heinlein story, the children were also Lazarus Long's _daughters_.
Cloned with a mirrored X Chromosome, not daughters as I recall it
Which would make them his sisters.
h***@gmail.com
2020-05-16 18:18:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
I"m sorry, but that "romance between a man and a child" as you call it
was a popular trope at the time it was written, it did not contain a
"violation of a social stricture".
Next time you're looking for a movie to watch, try "Gigi" with Maurice
Chevalier and Leslie Caron, among others.
In the Heinlein story, the children were also Lazarus Long's _daughters_.
Cloned with a mirrored X Chromosome, not daughters as I recall it
Which would make them his sisters.
No, it makes them his slightly tweaked clones
a sister would have a 50% genetic match
They'd be 45/46 match
They're a couple of thousand years younger than he is as well

(Also note that things get weird with epigenetics about how genes turn on and just copying the X chromosome might not work out too well, best to assume that Ishtar and Galahad were simplifying things)
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-05-16 21:17:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by David Johnston
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
I"m sorry, but that "romance between a man and a child" as you call it
was a popular trope at the time it was written, it did not contain a
"violation of a social stricture".
Next time you're looking for a movie to watch, try "Gigi" with Maurice
Chevalier and Leslie Caron, among others.
In the Heinlein story, the children were also Lazarus Long's _daughters_.
Cloned with a mirrored X Chromosome, not daughters as I recall it
Which would make them his sisters.
No, it makes them his slightly tweaked clones
a sister would have a 50% genetic match
They'd be 45/46 match
When someone's twin brother gets a full op sex change I'm gonna call her
his sister.
This is already happened in _Questionable Content._

https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4265

The red-haired woman used to be the red-haired man's brother.
Now she's his sister. I don't know whether twin or not, but
going by appearances it seems likely.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Lynn McGuire
2020-05-17 03:54:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by David Johnston
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
I"m sorry, but that "romance between a man and a child" as you call it
was a popular trope at the time it was written, it did not contain a
"violation of a social stricture".
Next time you're looking for a movie to watch, try "Gigi" with Maurice
Chevalier and Leslie Caron, among others.
In the Heinlein story, the children were also Lazarus Long's _daughters_.
Cloned with a mirrored X Chromosome, not daughters as I recall it
Which would make them his sisters.
No, it makes them his slightly tweaked clones
a sister would have a 50% genetic match
They'd be 45/46 match
When someone's twin brother gets a full op sex change I'm gonna call her
his sister.
This is already happened in _Questionable Content._
https://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4265
The red-haired woman used to be the red-haired man's brother.
Now she's his sister. I don't know whether twin or not, but
going by appearances it seems likely.
If I remember correctly, she and her brother are identical twins, and
she is pre-op trans.
https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2324

Nope, this says that they are not twins.
https://questionablecontent.fandom.com/wiki/Claire_Augustus

Lynn
Paul S Person
2020-05-16 16:03:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 16 May 2020 00:39:48 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
I"m sorry, but that "romance between a man and a child" as you call it
was a popular trope at the time it was written, it did not contain a
"violation of a social stricture".
Next time you're looking for a movie to watch, try "Gigi" with Maurice
Chevalier and Leslie Caron, among others.
In the Heinlein story, the children were also Lazarus Long's _daughters_.
In the movie Gigi, the man was acquainted with Gigi when she _was_ a child, but
had now become romantically attracted to her after she had become a woman.
Although she was an adult, as he remembered her as a child, he still had doubts
about the appropriateness of the relationship, which was one of the factors
leading to the movie having a plot.
It had a /plot/? I don't recall seeing it; my impression from the
album (ie, songs) is that is standard romcom stuff.

Well, with Chevalier in it, high-class romcom stuff.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-05-16 21:25:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 16 May 2020 00:39:48 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
I"m sorry, but that "romance between a man and a child" as you call it
was a popular trope at the time it was written, it did not contain a
"violation of a social stricture".
Next time you're looking for a movie to watch, try "Gigi" with Maurice
Chevalier and Leslie Caron, among others.
In the Heinlein story, the children were also Lazarus Long's _daughters_.
In the movie Gigi, the man was acquainted with Gigi when she _was_ a
child, but
Post by Quadibloc
had now become romantically attracted to her after she had become a woman.
Although she was an adult, as he remembered her as a child, he still
had doubts
Post by Quadibloc
about the appropriateness of the relationship, which was one of the factors
leading to the movie having a plot.
It had a /plot/? I don't recall seeing it; my impression from the
album (ie, songs) is that is standard romcom stuff.
It's available on DVD and probably elsewhere; I recommend it.
The costuming is accurate and the cast is superb.

Plot in nutshell: Girl's grandmother and aunt are both retired
very-expensive courtesans. They are disappointed in her mother,
who merely sings opera. They've trained her in their trade, and
they've chosen Gaston to be her first patron; he's known her
since she was a small child and they've always been friends. He
takes her out to dinner and watches her doing all the standard
courtesan stuff, gets furious, drags her home, has a soliloquy in
which he realizes he's in love for her, and asks her female
relatives for her hand in marriage.
Post by J. Clarke
Well, with Chevalier in it, high-class romcom stuff.
Note that in the novella "Gigi" by Colette ... Chevalier's
character, Honore' Lachaille, does not appear *at all.* Lerner
and Lowe presumably wrote him in because ... he was Chevalier,
after all.

Note that the song "Say a Prayer for Me Tonight" was originally
written for "My Fair Lady" and removed from it sometime in the
try-it-out-in-the-sticks process.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2020-05-17 16:29:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 16 May 2020 00:39:48 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
I"m sorry, but that "romance between a man and a child" as you call it
was a popular trope at the time it was written, it did not contain a
"violation of a social stricture".
Next time you're looking for a movie to watch, try "Gigi" with Maurice
Chevalier and Leslie Caron, among others.
In the Heinlein story, the children were also Lazarus Long's _daughters_.
In the movie Gigi, the man was acquainted with Gigi when she _was_ a
child, but
Post by Quadibloc
had now become romantically attracted to her after she had become a woman.
Although she was an adult, as he remembered her as a child, he still
had doubts
Post by Quadibloc
about the appropriateness of the relationship, which was one of the factors
leading to the movie having a plot.
It had a /plot/? I don't recall seeing it; my impression from the
album (ie, songs) is that is standard romcom stuff.
It's available on DVD and probably elsewhere; I recommend it.
The costuming is accurate and the cast is superb.
Plot in nutshell: Girl's grandmother and aunt are both retired
very-expensive courtesans. They are disappointed in her mother,
who merely sings opera. They've trained her in their trade, and
they've chosen Gaston to be her first patron; he's known her
since she was a small child and they've always been friends. He
takes her out to dinner and watches her doing all the standard
courtesan stuff, gets furious, drags her home, has a soliloquy in
which he realizes he's in love for her, and asks her female
relatives for her hand in marriage.
As I said: romcom.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Well, with Chevalier in it, high-class romcom stuff.
Note that in the novella "Gigi" by Colette ... Chevalier's
character, Honore' Lachaille, does not appear *at all.* Lerner
and Lowe presumably wrote him in because ... he was Chevalier,
after all.
Note that the song "Say a Prayer for Me Tonight" was originally
written for "My Fair Lady" and removed from it sometime in the
try-it-out-in-the-sticks process.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
David Johnston
2020-05-16 17:39:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Lynn McGuire
And yes, every single one of them had an agenda. Especially Heinlein
("Farnham's Freehold" and "Sixth Column" come to mind immediately).
Farnham's Freehold certainly is one of the champions if one were holding a
competition for most politically incorrect work by a major science-fiction
author.
However, if anyone were to seriously suggest that Heinlein had an agenda to
promote the disenfranchisement of blacks, because they were cannibals at heart
and a fifth column for Islam, in my opinion that person would be seriously
wrong. (There's other evidence that Heinlein was strongly opposed to
racism, as
Post by Quadibloc
is well known here.)
If he ddidn't have _that_ agenda, then there's nothing left except maybe the
non-controversial "nuclear war is a bad thing because it hurts people".
Not...exactly. I find "Farnam's Freehold" to be Heinlein's equivalent
of "Angel One" and "The Outcast", two episodes of Star Trek TNG who
tried to illuminate modern society (at the time) by reversing social
problems. In "Angel One" the crew deal with a world where women are
bigger and stronger than the local men and are alarmed by the arrival of
some giant men from Earth who aren't prepared accept subordinate status
and spark the invention of a "men's liberation" movement. In "The
Outcast" a society that has rejected gender differentiation deals with
people who gender themselves as "male or "female" by brainwashing the
sexual deviance out of them.
And despite the best intentions, the results sucked. In Heinlein's case
the idea was to present the reader with the question "What if you were
in the position of modern day black people in the U.S., as an oppressed
minority." Nice idea in theory. Lousy in execution like the
aforementioned TNG episodes. Just because a story has an agenda
doesn't mean that it will succeed. Other people did it better, although
those other people also did it later.
Anyone remember the title of that novel where Europeans were imported as
slaves in a North America colonized by China, and are now demonstrating
for civil rights. It had this one scene where a young woman was
standing on one leg as a an act of nonviolent protest and had to wait
out an army commander who decided to just stand in front of her on both
of his feet.
_White Lotus_ by John Hersey. I had a copy of that book sitting
around for years. The trouble with it was what is frequently
what's the trouble when somebody who is used to writing literary
fiction tries his hand at a genre: they don't know how the genre
works. One thing that can happen is reinventing the wheel: I'm
sure we can all come up with examples. (Lawrence Block's _Random
Walk_, e.g.)
Bu in Hersey's case, he is so anxious to say "how would you feel
if it were to happen to you?" that he compresses the entire history
of African-Americans, from being captured, transported to another
continent, enslaved, liberated, living at a disadvantage as a
sharecropper, and finally beginning a civil-rights movement ...
all within a decade or so of the life of one woman.
Basically the same mistake as _Farnham's Freehold,_ only Heinlein
ought to have known better.
Post by Quadibloc
Of course one thing that helped undermine Heinlein's attempt was that he
had that little quirk where almost everything he wrote for adults had to
contain a violation of a social stricture of his time. There had to be
group marriage, or incest, or public nudity, or a romance between a man
and a child, or...in this case...cannibalism.
He had reached the point where anything he wrote would get
published, and I'm not sure whether he was trying to find out
just how far he could push the limits, or whether in his second
childhood we was channeling the little boy who utters the naughty
words at the top of his voice when the bishop and his wife have
come to tea.
I"m sorry, but that "romance between a man and a child" as you call it
was a popular trope at the time it was written, it did not contain a
"violation of a social stricture".
Next time you're looking for a movie to watch, try "Gigi" with Maurice
Chevalier and Leslie Caron, among others.
As I understand Gigi, the thought never crosses Gaston's mind until
she's "barely legal" and gets her first "adult" dress at which point he
has a temper tantrum because he's uncomfortable having such thoughts
about someone he has heretofore thought of as a child. And what's more,
Gigi was a remake of a French movie which was an adaptation of a French
novel inspired by a real woman who was quite scandalous.
Peter Trei
2020-05-16 20:56:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Lynn McGuire
And yes, every single one of them had an agenda. Especially Heinlein
("Farnham's Freehold" and "Sixth Column" come to mind immediately).
Farnham's Freehold certainly is one of the champions if one were holding a
competition for most politically incorrect work by a major science-fiction
author.
However, if anyone were to seriously suggest that Heinlein had an agenda to
promote the disenfranchisement of blacks, because they were cannibals at heart
and a fifth column for Islam, in my opinion that person would be seriously
wrong. (There's other evidence that Heinlein was strongly opposed to
racism, as
Post by Quadibloc
is well known here.)
If he ddidn't have _that_ agenda, then there's nothing left except maybe the
non-controversial "nuclear war is a bad thing because it hurts people".
Not...exactly. I find "Farnam's Freehold" to be Heinlein's equivalent
of "Angel One" and "The Outcast", two episodes of Star Trek TNG who
tried to illuminate modern society (at the time) by reversing social
problems. In "Angel One" the crew deal with a world where women are
bigger and stronger than the local men and are alarmed by the arrival of
some giant men from Earth who aren't prepared accept subordinate status
and spark the invention of a "men's liberation" movement. In "The
Outcast" a society that has rejected gender differentiation deals with
people who gender themselves as "male or "female" by brainwashing the
sexual deviance out of them.
And despite the best intentions, the results sucked. In Heinlein's case
the idea was to present the reader with the question "What if you were
in the position of modern day black people in the U.S., as an oppressed
minority." Nice idea in theory. Lousy in execution like the
aforementioned TNG episodes. Just because a story has an agenda
doesn't mean that it will succeed. Other people did it better, although
those other people also did it later.
Anyone remember the title of that novel where Europeans were imported as
slaves in a North America colonized by China, and are now demonstrating
for civil rights. It had this one scene where a young woman was
standing on one leg as a an act of nonviolent protest and had to wait
out an army commander who decided to just stand in front of her on both
of his feet.
_White Lotus_ by John Hersey. I had a copy of that book sitting
around for years. The trouble with it was what is frequently
what's the trouble when somebody who is used to writing literary
fiction tries his hand at a genre: they don't know how the genre
works. One thing that can happen is reinventing the wheel: I'm
sure we can all come up with examples. (Lawrence Block's _Random
Walk_, e.g.)
Bu in Hersey's case, he is so anxious to say "how would you feel
if it were to happen to you?" that he compresses the entire history
of African-Americans, from being captured, transported to another
continent, enslaved, liberated, living at a disadvantage as a
sharecropper, and finally beginning a civil-rights movement ...
all within a decade or so of the life of one woman.
Basically the same mistake as _Farnham's Freehold,_ only Heinlein
ought to have known better.
Post by Quadibloc
Of course one thing that helped undermine Heinlein's attempt was that he
had that little quirk where almost everything he wrote for adults had to
contain a violation of a social stricture of his time. There had to be
group marriage, or incest, or public nudity, or a romance between a man
and a child, or...in this case...cannibalism.
He had reached the point where anything he wrote would get
published, and I'm not sure whether he was trying to find out
just how far he could push the limits, or whether in his second
childhood we was channeling the little boy who utters the naughty
words at the top of his voice when the bishop and his wife have
come to tea.
I"m sorry, but that "romance between a man and a child" as you call it
was a popular trope at the time it was written, it did not contain a
"violation of a social stricture".
Next time you're looking for a movie to watch, try "Gigi" with Maurice
Chevalier and Leslie Caron, among others.
As I understand Gigi, the thought never crosses Gaston's mind until
she's "barely legal" and gets her first "adult" dress at which point he
has a temper tantrum because he's uncomfortable having such thoughts
about someone he has heretofore thought of as a child. And what's more,
Gigi was a remake of a French movie which was an adaptation of a French
novel inspired by a real woman who was quite scandalous.
Yola Letellier, who was the model for Gigi, seems to have lived a long and
satisfactory life, moving in the highest circles of French and British
society. She lived until at least 1979.

pt
Paul S Person
2020-05-17 16:33:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 16 May 2020 13:56:18 -0700 (PDT), Peter Trei
Post by Peter Trei
Post by David Johnston
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Lynn McGuire
And yes, every single one of them had an agenda. Especially Heinlein
("Farnham's Freehold" and "Sixth Column" come to mind immediately).
Farnham's Freehold certainly is one of the champions if one were holding a
competition for most politically incorrect work by a major science-fiction
author.
However, if anyone were to seriously suggest that Heinlein had an agenda to
promote the disenfranchisement of blacks, because they were cannibals at heart
and a fifth column for Islam, in my opinion that person would be seriously
wrong. (There's other evidence that Heinlein was strongly opposed to
racism, as
Post by Quadibloc
is well known here.)
If he ddidn't have _that_ agenda, then there's nothing left except maybe the
non-controversial "nuclear war is a bad thing because it hurts people".
Not...exactly. I find "Farnam's Freehold" to be Heinlein's equivalent
of "Angel One" and "The Outcast", two episodes of Star Trek TNG who
tried to illuminate modern society (at the time) by reversing social
problems. In "Angel One" the crew deal with a world where women are
bigger and stronger than the local men and are alarmed by the arrival of
some giant men from Earth who aren't prepared accept subordinate status
and spark the invention of a "men's liberation" movement. In "The
Outcast" a society that has rejected gender differentiation deals with
people who gender themselves as "male or "female" by brainwashing the
sexual deviance out of them.
And despite the best intentions, the results sucked. In Heinlein's case
the idea was to present the reader with the question "What if you were
in the position of modern day black people in the U.S., as an oppressed
minority." Nice idea in theory. Lousy in execution like the
aforementioned TNG episodes. Just because a story has an agenda
doesn't mean that it will succeed. Other people did it better, although
those other people also did it later.
Anyone remember the title of that novel where Europeans were imported as
slaves in a North America colonized by China, and are now demonstrating
for civil rights. It had this one scene where a young woman was
standing on one leg as a an act of nonviolent protest and had to wait
out an army commander who decided to just stand in front of her on both
of his feet.
_White Lotus_ by John Hersey. I had a copy of that book sitting
around for years. The trouble with it was what is frequently
what's the trouble when somebody who is used to writing literary
fiction tries his hand at a genre: they don't know how the genre
works. One thing that can happen is reinventing the wheel: I'm
sure we can all come up with examples. (Lawrence Block's _Random
Walk_, e.g.)
Bu in Hersey's case, he is so anxious to say "how would you feel
if it were to happen to you?" that he compresses the entire history
of African-Americans, from being captured, transported to another
continent, enslaved, liberated, living at a disadvantage as a
sharecropper, and finally beginning a civil-rights movement ...
all within a decade or so of the life of one woman.
Basically the same mistake as _Farnham's Freehold,_ only Heinlein
ought to have known better.
Post by Quadibloc
Of course one thing that helped undermine Heinlein's attempt was that he
had that little quirk where almost everything he wrote for adults had to
contain a violation of a social stricture of his time. There had to be
group marriage, or incest, or public nudity, or a romance between a man
and a child, or...in this case...cannibalism.
He had reached the point where anything he wrote would get
published, and I'm not sure whether he was trying to find out
just how far he could push the limits, or whether in his second
childhood we was channeling the little boy who utters the naughty
words at the top of his voice when the bishop and his wife have
come to tea.
I"m sorry, but that "romance between a man and a child" as you call it
was a popular trope at the time it was written, it did not contain a
"violation of a social stricture".
Next time you're looking for a movie to watch, try "Gigi" with Maurice
Chevalier and Leslie Caron, among others.
As I understand Gigi, the thought never crosses Gaston's mind until
she's "barely legal" and gets her first "adult" dress at which point he
has a temper tantrum because he's uncomfortable having such thoughts
about someone he has heretofore thought of as a child. And what's more,
Gigi was a remake of a French movie which was an adaptation of a French
novel inspired by a real woman who was quite scandalous.
Yola Letellier, who was the model for Gigi, seems to have lived a long and
satisfactory life, moving in the highest circles of French and British
society. She lived until at least 1979.
And since when has being "scandalous" prevented a woman from moving in
the best circles of European society?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-05-17 19:04:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 16 May 2020 13:56:18 -0700 (PDT), Peter Trei
Post by Peter Trei
Post by David Johnston
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Lynn McGuire
And yes, every single one of them had an agenda. Especially Heinlein
("Farnham's Freehold" and "Sixth Column" come to mind immediately).
Farnham's Freehold certainly is one of the champions if one were
holding a
Post by Peter Trei
Post by David Johnston
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
competition for most politically incorrect work by a major
science-fiction
Post by Peter Trei
Post by David Johnston
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
author.
However, if anyone were to seriously suggest that Heinlein had
an agenda to
Post by Peter Trei
Post by David Johnston
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
promote the disenfranchisement of blacks, because they were
cannibals at heart
Post by Peter Trei
Post by David Johnston
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
and a fifth column for Islam, in my opinion that person would be
seriously
Post by Peter Trei
Post by David Johnston
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
wrong. (There's other evidence that Heinlein was strongly opposed to
racism, as
Post by Quadibloc
is well known here.)
If he ddidn't have _that_ agenda, then there's nothing left
except maybe the
Post by Peter Trei
Post by David Johnston
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
non-controversial "nuclear war is a bad thing because it hurts people".
Not...exactly. I find "Farnam's Freehold" to be Heinlein's equivalent
of "Angel One" and "The Outcast", two episodes of Star Trek TNG who
tried to illuminate modern society (at the time) by reversing social
problems. In "Angel One" the crew deal with a world where women are
bigger and stronger than the local men and are alarmed by the arrival of
some giant men from Earth who aren't prepared accept subordinate status
and spark the invention of a "men's liberation" movement. In "The
Outcast" a society that has rejected gender differentiation deals with
people who gender themselves as "male or "female" by brainwashing the
sexual deviance out of them.
And despite the best intentions, the results sucked. In Heinlein's case
the idea was to present the reader with the question "What if you were
in the position of modern day black people in the U.S., as an oppressed
minority." Nice idea in theory. Lousy in execution like the
aforementioned TNG episodes. Just because a story has an agenda
doesn't mean that it will succeed. Other people did it better, although
those other people also did it later.
Anyone remember the title of that novel where Europeans were imported as
slaves in a North America colonized by China, and are now demonstrating
for civil rights. It had this one scene where a young woman was
standing on one leg as a an act of nonviolent protest and had to wait
out an army commander who decided to just stand in front of her on both
of his feet.
_White Lotus_ by John Hersey. I had a copy of that book sitting
around for years. The trouble with it was what is frequently
what's the trouble when somebody who is used to writing literary
fiction tries his hand at a genre: they don't know how the genre
works. One thing that can happen is reinventing the wheel: I'm
sure we can all come up with examples. (Lawrence Block's _Random
Walk_, e.g.)
Bu in Hersey's case, he is so anxious to say "how would you feel
if it were to happen to you?" that he compresses the entire history
of African-Americans, from being captured, transported to another
continent, enslaved, liberated, living at a disadvantage as a
sharecropper, and finally beginning a civil-rights movement ...
all within a decade or so of the life of one woman.
Basically the same mistake as _Farnham's Freehold,_ only Heinlein
ought to have known better.
Post by Quadibloc
Of course one thing that helped undermine Heinlein's attempt was that he
had that little quirk where almost everything he wrote for adults had to
contain a violation of a social stricture of his time. There had to be
group marriage, or incest, or public nudity, or a romance between a man
and a child, or...in this case...cannibalism.
He had reached the point where anything he wrote would get
published, and I'm not sure whether he was trying to find out
just how far he could push the limits, or whether in his second
childhood we was channeling the little boy who utters the naughty
words at the top of his voice when the bishop and his wife have
come to tea.
I"m sorry, but that "romance between a man and a child" as you call it
was a popular trope at the time it was written, it did not contain a
"violation of a social stricture".
Next time you're looking for a movie to watch, try "Gigi" with Maurice
Chevalier and Leslie Caron, among others.
As I understand Gigi, the thought never crosses Gaston's mind until
she's "barely legal" and gets her first "adult" dress at which point he
has a temper tantrum because he's uncomfortable having such thoughts
about someone he has heretofore thought of as a child. And what's more,
Gigi was a remake of a French movie which was an adaptation of a French
novel inspired by a real woman who was quite scandalous.
Yola Letellier, who was the model for Gigi, seems to have lived a long and
satisfactory life, moving in the highest circles of French and British
society. She lived until at least 1979.
And since when has being "scandalous" prevented a woman from moving in
the best circles of European society?
Well, in Victoria's England.

E.g., Ruskin divorced his wife the day after their marriage, and
Victoria would never allow *her* to appear at court. (I'm not
sure about him.)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Moriarty
2020-05-17 22:49:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
And since when has being "scandalous" prevented a woman from moving in
the best circles of European society?
Well, in Victoria's England.
E.g., Ruskin divorced his wife the day after their marriage, and
Victoria would never allow *her* to appear at court. (I'm not
sure about him.)
Actually their marriage was famously anulled after five years of non-consumation. But yes, she was barred from events that royalty was present.

There was a wonderful BBC production about the pre-Raphaelites called <Googles> "Desperate Romantics". It's highly fictionalised of course, but the Beeb does these things so well.

-Moriarty
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-05-16 21:30:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
As I understand Gigi, the thought never crosses Gaston's mind until
she's "barely legal" and gets her first "adult" dress at which point he
has a temper tantrum because he's uncomfortable having such thoughts
about someone he has heretofore thought of as a child. And what's more,
Gigi was a remake of a French movie which was an adaptation of a French
novel inspired by a real woman who was quite scandalous.
Novella, actually. I've never seen the French movie, but I've
read the novella. Yeah, if you google "Colette" you'll find some
bits that were considered very scandalous at the time. You won't
find much to shock you in the novella.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2020-05-17 16:36:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 16 May 2020 11:39:47 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Lynn McGuire
And yes, every single one of them had an agenda. Especially Heinlein
("Farnham's Freehold" and "Sixth Column" come to mind immediately).
Farnham's Freehold certainly is one of the champions if one were holding a
competition for most politically incorrect work by a major science-fiction
author.
However, if anyone were to seriously suggest that Heinlein had an agenda to
promote the disenfranchisement of blacks, because they were cannibals at heart
and a fifth column for Islam, in my opinion that person would be seriously
wrong. (There's other evidence that Heinlein was strongly opposed to
racism, as
Post by Quadibloc
is well known here.)
If he ddidn't have _that_ agenda, then there's nothing left except maybe the
non-controversial "nuclear war is a bad thing because it hurts people".
Not...exactly. I find "Farnam's Freehold" to be Heinlein's equivalent
of "Angel One" and "The Outcast", two episodes of Star Trek TNG who
tried to illuminate modern society (at the time) by reversing social
problems. In "Angel One" the crew deal with a world where women are
bigger and stronger than the local men and are alarmed by the arrival of
some giant men from Earth who aren't prepared accept subordinate status
and spark the invention of a "men's liberation" movement. In "The
Outcast" a society that has rejected gender differentiation deals with
people who gender themselves as "male or "female" by brainwashing the
sexual deviance out of them.
And despite the best intentions, the results sucked. In Heinlein's case
the idea was to present the reader with the question "What if you were
in the position of modern day black people in the U.S., as an oppressed
minority." Nice idea in theory. Lousy in execution like the
aforementioned TNG episodes. Just because a story has an agenda
doesn't mean that it will succeed. Other people did it better, although
those other people also did it later.
Anyone remember the title of that novel where Europeans were imported as
slaves in a North America colonized by China, and are now demonstrating
for civil rights. It had this one scene where a young woman was
standing on one leg as a an act of nonviolent protest and had to wait
out an army commander who decided to just stand in front of her on both
of his feet.
_White Lotus_ by John Hersey. I had a copy of that book sitting
around for years. The trouble with it was what is frequently
what's the trouble when somebody who is used to writing literary
fiction tries his hand at a genre: they don't know how the genre
works. One thing that can happen is reinventing the wheel: I'm
sure we can all come up with examples. (Lawrence Block's _Random
Walk_, e.g.)
Bu in Hersey's case, he is so anxious to say "how would you feel
if it were to happen to you?" that he compresses the entire history
of African-Americans, from being captured, transported to another
continent, enslaved, liberated, living at a disadvantage as a
sharecropper, and finally beginning a civil-rights movement ...
all within a decade or so of the life of one woman.
Basically the same mistake as _Farnham's Freehold,_ only Heinlein
ought to have known better.
Post by Quadibloc
Of course one thing that helped undermine Heinlein's attempt was that he
had that little quirk where almost everything he wrote for adults had to
contain a violation of a social stricture of his time. There had to be
group marriage, or incest, or public nudity, or a romance between a man
and a child, or...in this case...cannibalism.
He had reached the point where anything he wrote would get
published, and I'm not sure whether he was trying to find out
just how far he could push the limits, or whether in his second
childhood we was channeling the little boy who utters the naughty
words at the top of his voice when the bishop and his wife have
come to tea.
I"m sorry, but that "romance between a man and a child" as you call it
was a popular trope at the time it was written, it did not contain a
"violation of a social stricture".
Next time you're looking for a movie to watch, try "Gigi" with Maurice
Chevalier and Leslie Caron, among others.
As I understand Gigi, the thought never crosses Gaston's mind until
she's "barely legal" and gets her first "adult" dress at which point he
has a temper tantrum because he's uncomfortable having such thoughts
about someone he has heretofore thought of as a child. And what's more,
Gigi was a remake of a French movie which was an adaptation of a French
novel inspired by a real woman who was quite scandalous.
I /have/ seen the trailer, and, IIRC, the trailer was for a full
theatrical presentation, with reservations and reserved (that is,
assigned) seating!

The impression I got (which could be wrong) was that the film was not,
as film musicals usually are, based on a stage play musical but
skipped that phase and went directly to film.

Not really related to anything, but I found /Barely Lethal/ to be
quite entertaining.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Quadibloc
2020-05-17 16:57:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
As I understand Gigi, the thought never crosses Gaston's mind until
she's "barely legal" and gets her first "adult" dress at which point he
has a temper tantrum because he's uncomfortable having such thoughts
about someone he has heretofore thought of as a child.
This is what I understood, which is why I noted that Gigi depended upon the
French having a cultural objection to pedophilia against females, to rebut a
previous post.

However, my knowledge was incomplete, not having actually watched the whole
movie, and so I didn't realize there was the courtesan stuff Dorothy mentioned.

John Savard
Paul S Person
2020-05-18 16:36:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 17 May 2020 09:57:10 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by David Johnston
As I understand Gigi, the thought never crosses Gaston's mind until
she's "barely legal" and gets her first "adult" dress at which point he
has a temper tantrum because he's uncomfortable having such thoughts
about someone he has heretofore thought of as a child.
This is what I understood, which is why I noted that Gigi depended upon the
French having a cultural objection to pedophilia against females, to rebut a
previous post.
However, my knowledge was incomplete, not having actually watched the whole
movie, and so I didn't realize there was the courtesan stuff Dorothy mentioned.
Well, it /is/ a French story. You have to expect something like that.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
o***@gmail.com
2020-05-17 00:07:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Lynn McGuire
And yes, every single one of them had an agenda. Especially Heinlein
("Farnham's Freehold" and "Sixth Column" come to mind immediately).
Farnham's Freehold certainly is one of the champions if one were holding a
competition for most politically incorrect work by a major science-fiction
author.
As the term is defined by offense kleptomaniacs......you are correct.

But...adults don't care.
Post by Quadibloc
However, if anyone were to seriously suggest that Heinlein had an agenda to
promote the disenfranchisement of blacks, because they were cannibals at heart
and a fifth column for Islam, in my opinion that person would be seriously
wrong. (There's other evidence that Heinlein was strongly opposed to racism, as
is well known here.)
If he ddidn't have _that_ agenda, then there's nothing left except maybe the
non-controversial "nuclear war is a bad thing because it hurts people".
Realistically accepting that white people aren't the only people the collapse of
civilization might bring out the worst in... is something shied away from today,
because of the chance of being misunderstood, but it is not necessarily active
promotion of racism.
Good summation........
Quadibloc
2020-05-15 00:41:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
Sarcasm is a form of irony, and thus humor. In this, your column has succeeded.

In Isaac Asmiov's Foundation series, the Foundation failed and turned out to be
a sham, and so on; and, in any case, it was not presented as preferable to
democracy, but preferable to a monarchy. Hence, it doesn't really qualify as an
argument for replacing the current government of the United States with, say, a
Council of Scientists.

If you want that, you'll have to look for something else, like Donald J. Trump's
handling of COVID-19.

Surely even in the halcyon days of the Golden and/or Silver Ages of science
fiction, if anyone believed Cyril Kornbluth was a fervid advocate of genocide,
he would have been ostracized in the science-fiction community.

Like "The Machine Stops" by E. M. Forster, science fiction often deals with the
dilemmas posed by extreme versions of current problems in the future, but as a
mind-stretching exercise, not as a clarion call to action because the problem in
question is thought to be imminent or even likely.

Most of your examples - with perhaps a few exceptions - although they certainly
addressed topics of a political nature, worked as entertainment and weren't
blatantly advocating a particular position in a currently active political
debate. Thus, given the American consensus that democracy is preferable to
tyranny, Heinlein's "If This Goes On..." and George Orwell's "1984" could hardly
be called partisan, and the same goes for Ray Bradbury's "Fahrenheit 451".

So I think you've failed to invalidate the perceived whining about present-day
science fiction. Of course, some of that whining _is_ invalid for other reasons;
the notion that women are human beings, for example, really wasn't controversial
the last time I looked.

John Savard
David Johnston
2020-05-15 04:01:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
Sarcasm is a form of irony, and thus humor. In this, your column has succeeded.
In Isaac Asmiov's Foundation series, the Foundation failed and turned out to be
a sham, and so on; and, in any case, it was not presented as preferable to
democracy, but preferable to a monarchy. Hence, it doesn't really qualify as an
argument for replacing the current government of the United States with, say, a
Council of Scientists.
I think you forget that the Foundation DID have an elected government
not unlike that of the United States. Which failed because capitalists
suck.
Post by Quadibloc
Surely even in the halcyon days of the Golden and/or Silver Ages of science
fiction, if anyone believed Cyril Kornbluth was a fervid advocate of genocide,
he would have been ostracized in the science-fiction community.
Gee, you're not very good at deciphering agendas. The agenda of "The
Marching Morons" wasn't genocide. It was eugenics, specifically, the
sterilization of the mentally handicapped. That's why they kill the man
from the past after he gives them the genocidal solution to their
problem. Because the failure of the people of his time to sterilize
low-IQ people to stop them breeding was what put them in their desperate
situation.
Post by Quadibloc
Like "The Machine Stops" by E. M. Forster, science fiction often deals with the
dilemmas posed by extreme versions of current problems in the future, but as a
mind-stretching exercise, not as a clarion call to action because the problem in
question is thought to be imminent or even likely.
Most of your examples - with perhaps a few exceptions - although they certainly
addressed topics of a political nature, worked as entertainment and weren't
blatantly advocating a particular position in a currently active political
debate. Thus, given the American consensus that democracy is preferable to
tyranny, Heinlein's "If This Goes On..."
Wow. You really do suck at deciphering agendas. The agenda of "If This
Goes One..." is not, "Democracy is good". It's "Keep religion the hell
out of politics".


and George Orwell's "1984" could hardly
Post by Quadibloc
be called partisan,
The agenda of "1984" is "Democratic nations are in danger of becoming
indistinguishable from their Cold War foes by demanding total loyalty in
a war that may never end."
Post by Quadibloc
and the same goes for Ray Bradbury's "Fahrenheit 451".
The agenda of "451" is "television is dumbing us down and making us
illiterate."

Oh, and the agenda of "The Machine Stops" is "HG Wells is full of crap."
h***@gmail.com
2020-05-15 04:31:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Quadibloc
Surely even in the halcyon days of the Golden and/or Silver Ages of science
fiction, if anyone believed Cyril Kornbluth was a fervid advocate of genocide,
he would have been ostracized in the science-fiction community.
Gee, you're not very good at deciphering agendas.
It's quaddie, humans are a constant source of mystery to him
Quadibloc
2020-05-15 07:13:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
and George Orwell's "1984" could hardly
Post by Quadibloc
be called partisan,
The agenda of "1984" is "Democratic nations are in danger of becoming
indistinguishable from their Cold War foes by demanding total loyalty in
a war that may never end."
I knew that one, but I didn't mention it as it wasn't germane to the point I was
making - that 1984 wasn't obtrusively controversial. Although it's true many
would disagree with that claim.

John Savard
o***@gmail.com
2020-05-17 00:13:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
Classic SF With Absolutely No Agenda Whatsoever...
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/13/classic-sf-with-absolutely-no-agenda-whatsoever/
Sarcasm is a form of irony, and thus humor. In this, your column has succeeded.
In Isaac Asmiov's Foundation series, the Foundation failed and turned out to be
a sham, and so on; and, in any case, it was not presented as preferable to
democracy, but preferable to a monarchy. Hence, it doesn't really qualify as an
argument for replacing the current government of the United States with, say, a
Council of Scientists.
I think you forget that the Foundation DID have an elected government
not unlike that of the United States. Which failed because capitalists
suck.
Post by Quadibloc
Surely even in the halcyon days of the Golden and/or Silver Ages of science
fiction, if anyone believed Cyril Kornbluth was a fervid advocate of genocide,
he would have been ostracized in the science-fiction community.
Gee, you're not very good at deciphering agendas. The agenda of "The
Marching Morons" wasn't genocide. It was eugenics, specifically, the
sterilization of the mentally handicapped. That's why they kill the man
from the past after he gives them the genocidal solution to their
problem. Because the failure of the people of his time to sterilize
low-IQ people to stop them breeding was what put them in their desperate
situation.
Post by Quadibloc
Like "The Machine Stops" by E. M. Forster, science fiction often deals with the
dilemmas posed by extreme versions of current problems in the future, but as a
mind-stretching exercise, not as a clarion call to action because the problem in
question is thought to be imminent or even likely.
Most of your examples - with perhaps a few exceptions - although they certainly
addressed topics of a political nature, worked as entertainment and weren't
blatantly advocating a particular position in a currently active political
debate. Thus, given the American consensus that democracy is preferable to
tyranny, Heinlein's "If This Goes On..."
Wow. You really do suck at deciphering agendas. The agenda of "If This
Goes One..." is not, "Democracy is good". It's "Keep religion the hell
out of politics".
and George Orwell's "1984" could hardly
Post by Quadibloc
be called partisan,
The agenda of "1984" is "Democratic nations are in danger of becoming
indistinguishable from their Cold War foes by demanding total loyalty in
a war that may never end."
Post by Quadibloc
and the same goes for Ray Bradbury's "Fahrenheit 451".
The agenda of "451" is "television is dumbing us down and making us
illiterate."
Oh, and the agenda of "The Machine Stops" is "HG Wells is full of crap."
Sometimes I wonder where some people went to school.
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