Discussion:
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
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Lynn McGuire
2021-09-23 18:54:31 UTC
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Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23

What could go wrong ?

Lynn
Ross Presser
2021-09-23 19:12:16 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd be funnier.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2021-09-23 19:24:41 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.

I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Lynn McGuire
2021-09-23 19:33:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.

Lynn
Mark Jackson
2021-09-23 19:59:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Right. Besides even if the paper isn't using a canned comics page from
an outside vendor it's highly likely that nobody in editorial or
production even looks at the strips. Plug in and print, to repent at
leisure if there are complaints about content.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
Read this carefully: “Bloom County” had a weekly deadline for 10
years. I missed 100 percent. Each of those 500 weeks, I had to drive 40
miles at 4:30 a.m. to the airport at whatever city I lived in to put the
strips on a plane as cargo, delivered by a cabdriver in Washington,
D.C., a few hours later. Every. One.
(https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/08/arts/bloom-county-40-berkeley-breathed.html)

However comics are one of the parts of the paper that are printed well
ahead of the distribution date - Saturday night is absurd.
--
Mark Jackson - https://mark-jackson.online/
Poverty is a choice made by governments not individuals.
- Fiona the Unemployed Bettong (Andrew Marlton)
Scott Lurndal
2021-09-24 14:52:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Right.  Besides even if the paper isn't using a canned comics page from
an outside vendor it's highly likely that nobody in editorial or
production even looks at the strips.  Plug in and print, to repent at
leisure if there are complaints about content.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth
of inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on
Saturday night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
Read this carefully: “Bloom County” had a weekly deadline for 10
years. I missed 100 percent. Each of those 500 weeks, I had to drive 40
miles at 4:30 a.m. to the airport at whatever city I lived in to put the
strips on a plane as cargo, delivered by a cabdriver in Washington,
D.C., a few hours later. Every. One.
(https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/08/arts/bloom-county-40-berkeley-breathed.html)
However comics are one of the parts of the paper that are printed well
ahead of the distribution date - Saturday night is absurd.
Thanks, I could not find the article that I read that from. My memory
is just not very good anymore. I would have sworn that he had to hire a
jet. Instead, he just used a regular cargo jet and a taxi.
Pre-9/11, counter-to-counter shipping was common for such things. Drop
it at the airport and someone would pick it up at the other end.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-to-counter_package
Paul S Person
2021-09-24 15:36:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 15:59:34 -0400, Mark Jackson
Post by Mark Jackson
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Right. Besides even if the paper isn't using a canned comics page from
an outside vendor it's highly likely that nobody in editorial or
production even looks at the strips. Plug in and print, to repent at
leisure if there are complaints about content.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
Read this carefully: “Bloom County” had a weekly deadline for 10
years. I missed 100 percent. Each of those 500 weeks, I had to drive 40
miles at 4:30 a.m. to the airport at whatever city I lived in to put the
strips on a plane as cargo, delivered by a cabdriver in Washington,
D.C., a few hours later. Every. One.
(https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/08/arts/bloom-county-40-berkeley-breathed.html)
However comics are one of the parts of the paper that are printed well
ahead of the distribution date - Saturday night is absurd.
Not to mention the "Bulldog" edition (well, the papers in Seattle had
these at the time, so I presume those in NYC did as well), which was a
Sunday paper that came out ... on Saturday.

The Sunday paper wasn't about the news; it was about the advertising
circulars and other inserts. And columns.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Wolffan
2021-09-24 19:15:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd
be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Right. Besides even if the paper isn't using a canned comics page from
an outside vendor it's highly likely that nobody in editorial or
production even looks at the strips. Plug in and print, to repent at
leisure if there are complaints about content.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
Read this carefully: “Bloom County” had a weekly deadline for 10
years. I missed 100 percent. Each of those 500 weeks, I had to drive 40
miles at 4:30 a.m. to the airport at whatever city I lived in to put the
strips on a plane as cargo, delivered by a cabdriver in Washington,
D.C., a few hours later. Every. One.
(https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/08/arts/bloom-county-40-berkeley-breathed.htm
l)
However comics are one of the parts of the paper that are printed well
ahead of the distribution date - Saturday night is absurd.
Back when I was working in the pre-press section of a newspaper (pre-press
created the film and the plates used to print the paper) we would start
printing some sections of the Sunday paper on Wednesday or Thursday. That
would usually be thing like the ‘magazine’, and various chunks of
full-page, two-page, and quad-page adverts. The entertainment section,
including things like crosswords and the comics, and the tv guide (remember
them?) would be printed on Thursday or Friday. Note that printing the tv
guide was a major production. At first we had a SyQuest disk (God, how we
hated SyPest with the fury of 10,000 suns) then we got a network 56k modem
and I got to go to tv guide people’s FTP site and spend over an hour
downloading a massive 9 MB file every Wednesday. Then we, and the tv guide
people, got broadband and I could get the file, which had doubled or tripled
in size, in a matter of minutes. We’d verify that we got the _correct_ file
(one reason for the SyPest disk had been that they sent _all_ the files...)
and send it to film and burn plates, and stack them for the press guys to
crank them out at their convenience. Recall that black pages were one page of
film, and one plate, spot colour was two pages, full colour was four. Film
was $3/foot, plates varied up to $50 each. We had a circulation of over
550,000, a set of plates was good for about 50,000 impressions, so we burned
about a dozen plates per. Two dozen for spot colour, four dozen for full
colour. You may detect why full colour wasn’t common until relatively
recently, when the price of plates went down. Comics pages for the Sunday
editions were, of course, full colour. You better believe that the comics, tv
guide, ‘magazine’, and things like opinion and fashion and what not were
all printed by Friday, or the editor and the senior press guy would be most
irate. We printed about 75% of the Sunday paper by Friday. The main holdouts
would be sports and editorial; if certain games ran late the sports people
would still be producing copy at 23:00 Saturday night... which is when the
presses started prting the parts of the Sunday paper not yet printed. If the
sports guys didn’t deliver copy in time, we went with filler and got the
paper out the door. Which meant that early editions looked remarkably
different from late editions. If you think that sports reporting sometimes
looked rushed, that’s because it _was_ rushed.
Kevrob
2021-09-25 07:32:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Wolffan
We printed about 75% of the Sunday paper by Friday. The main
holdouts would be sports and editorial; if certain games ran late the
sports people would still be producing copy at 23:00 Saturday
night... which is when the presses started prting the parts of the
Sunday paper not yet printed. If the sports guys didn’t deliver copy
in time, we went with filler and got the paper out the door. Which
meant that early editions looked remarkably different from late
editions. If you think that sports reporting sometimes looked rushed,
that’s because it_was_ rushed.
By contrast, our local (Gannett) paper often defers reports of
yesterday's non-early sports until tomorrow - when it often then prints
only the scores. For example East Coast AAA baseball games starting as
early as 5 PM yesterday didn't make today's paper at all.
--
As a paperboy for the New York Daily News in the late 1960s, delivering
60 mi east of Times Square, I'd get my Sunday Supplements delivered on
Wednesday and the main section of the paper on Sunday morning. The color
section might have been from a different plant, such as Eastern Color, up
in Waterbury, CT, Greater Buffalo Press, or World Color at Sparta, IL. There
were so few color section printers at that time that when one bought
another the Department of Justice anti-trust lawyers came calling.

For someone who followed several of the story strips, it took willpower to
avoid sneaking a peek at the Sunday pages while "putting the paper together"
sans the last section.
--
Kevin R
John W Kennedy
2021-09-23 20:20:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
This very strip is 5.4 MB. In 1980, on home equipment, it would take
something like ten hours to upload. In 1990, about 12 and a half
minutes. Today, of course, the time is humanly negligible.

Hell, I can remember a time when it would have taken 24 hours. (I can
also remember a time when only a one-off water-cooled supercomputer
would meet the performance specs of a gawddam Apple Watch.)
Quadibloc
2021-09-23 23:46:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I'm going to suggest that the originals are much larger, and tiff or
bmp, which are lossless.
Surely GIF or PNG would be more likely than either of those? BMP is restricted
to Windows and OS/2, and TIFF is relatively obscure, its main use being multi-page
images.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2021-09-24 00:39:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 16:46:54 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
I'm going to suggest that the originals are much larger, and tiff or
bmp, which are lossless.
Surely GIF or PNG would be more likely than either of those? BMP is restricted
to Windows and OS/2, and TIFF is relatively obscure, its main use being multi-page
images.
King Features and the Washington Post both say that they want PDFs.
Alan Baker
2021-09-24 15:47:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 16:46:54 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
I'm going to suggest that the originals are much larger, and tiff or
bmp, which are lossless.
Surely GIF or PNG would be more likely than either of those? BMP is restricted
to Windows and OS/2, and TIFF is relatively obscure, its main use being multi-page
images.
King Features and the Washington Post both say that they want PDFs.
They say that TODAY...
Wolffan
2021-09-24 19:30:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
I'm going to suggest that the originals are much larger, and tiff or
bmp, which are lossless.
Surely GIF or PNG would be more likely than either of those?
no. GIF was limited in colour palette. PNG couldn’t work with several
common tools for a loooong time. (Quark Xpress, I’m looking at _you_.) When
I was at the paper, we not onlt wanted TIFFs, we wanted _CMYK_ TIFFs, RGB
TIFFs showed as colour on screen but printed in grayscale. No colour seps.
This was another Quark quirk. In addition to hating SyPest, we weren’t that
fond of Quirk Xcess. Especially as it cost US$1000/copy and was heavily
copy-protected.
Post by Quadibloc
BMP is restricted
to Windows and OS/2, and TIFF is relatively obscure, its main use being multi-page
images.
pre-press people lived ot died by CMYK TIFFs.
Post by Quadibloc
John Savard
Alan Baker
2021-09-24 20:38:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Wolffan
Post by Quadibloc
I'm going to suggest that the originals are much larger, and tiff or
bmp, which are lossless.
Surely GIF or PNG would be more likely than either of those?
no. GIF was limited in colour palette. PNG couldn’t work with several
common tools for a loooong time. (Quark Xpress, I’m looking at _you_.) When
I was at the paper, we not onlt wanted TIFFs, we wanted _CMYK_ TIFFs, RGB
TIFFs showed as colour on screen but printed in grayscale. No colour seps.
This was another Quark quirk. In addition to hating SyPest, we weren’t that
fond of Quirk Xcess. Especially as it cost US$1000/copy and was heavily
copy-protected.
Post by Quadibloc
BMP is restricted
to Windows and OS/2, and TIFF is relatively obscure, its main use being multi-page
images.
pre-press people lived ot died by CMYK TIFFs.
Ah, Quark Xpress.

Everyone hated it...

...and rightly so...

...but everyone used it...

...and rightly so.

:-)
Alan Baker
2021-09-24 15:47:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
This very strip is 5.4 MB. In 1980, on home equipment, it would take
something like ten hours to upload. In 1990, about 12 and a half
minutes. Today, of course, the time is humanly negligible.
I'm going to suggest that the originals are much larger, and tiff or
bmp, which are lossless.
Pt
TIFF is lossless... ...but it has lossless COMPRESSION (LZW).

The black ink in a largely white panel of the typical comic strip will
compress fantastically well.
Wolffan
2021-09-24 19:22:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd
be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
This very strip is 5.4 MB. In 1980, on home equipment, it would take
something like ten hours to upload. In 1990, about 12 and a half
minutes. Today, of course, the time is humanly negligible.
it took literal hours to FTP down 6 to 9 MB files in the mid 1990s.
Post by John W Kennedy
Hell, I can remember a time when it would have taken 24 hours. (I can
also remember a time when only a one-off water-cooled supercomputer
would meet the performance specs of a gawddam Apple Watch.)
oh, yes.
Scott Lurndal
2021-09-24 21:10:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Wolffan
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd
be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
This very strip is 5.4 MB. In 1980, on home equipment, it would take
something like ten hours to upload. In 1990, about 12 and a half
minutes. Today, of course, the time is humanly negligible.
it took literal hours to FTP down 6 to 9 MB files in the mid 1990s.
I spent some time at one of the Dow Jones (WSJ) printing plants in the
1990's. They switched from hand pasteup to downloading the
negatives (or positives depending on how the plates were created)
via C-band dish every afternoon. By the mid 90's, the digital
data stream was printed directly on a plate with a laser, rather
than the former photographic method. The nice thing about offset
is that the plate is oriented the same as the page, rather than
a mirrored image - much easier to proof.

They started printing about 6:00 pm (2star edition) so they could
get it on a plane to Hawaii, the front page was updated sometimes
for later editions (3star and 4star) depending on how local the
target market was. Print run ended about 11:00 pm.
John W Kennedy
2021-09-25 18:27:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Wolffan
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
This very strip is 5.4 MB. In 1980, on home equipment, it would take
something like ten hours to upload. In 1990, about 12 and a half
minutes. Today, of course, the time is humanly negligible.
it took literal hours to FTP down 6 to 9 MB files in the mid 1990s.
That would, of course, depend on the modem—but I see I was a little off
on the timeline. 57,600-bps home modems were nearer the turn of the
century than 1990. (I’m old enough to remember when speeds like that
could be achieved only by leasing eight lines to run in parallel, and
2000-bps dial-up modems were the size of a toaster oven.)
Post by Wolffan
Post by John W Kennedy
Hell, I can remember a time when it would have taken 24 hours. (I can
also remember a time when only a one-off water-cooled supercomputer
would meet the performance specs of a gawddam Apple Watch.)
oh, yes.
pete...@gmail.com
2021-09-25 20:58:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Wolffan
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd
be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
This very strip is 5.4 MB. In 1980, on home equipment, it would take
something like ten hours to upload. In 1990, about 12 and a half
minutes. Today, of course, the time is humanly negligible.
it took literal hours to FTP down 6 to 9 MB files in the mid 1990s.
That would, of course, depend on the modem—but I see I was a little off
on the timeline. 57,600-bps home modems were nearer the turn of the
century than 1990. (I’m old enough to remember when speeds like that
could be achieved only by leasing eight lines to run in parallel, and
2000-bps dial-up modems were the size of a toaster oven.)
Post by Wolffan
Post by John W Kennedy
Hell, I can remember a time when it would have taken 24 hours. (I can
also remember a time when only a one-off water-cooled supercomputer
would meet the performance specs of a gawddam Apple Watch.)
The first modem I used was a 110 baud acoustic coupler, 1978. I soon after got
a 300 baud DC Hayes Micromodem ][ for my Apple ][+, and later a 1200 baud model.
Then 14k, 28k, 56k, and finally cable Internet in the mid 2000s.

Pt
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-09-25 21:54:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
The first modem I used was a 110 baud acoustic coupler, 1978.
I had one of those, around the same time.
Post by ***@gmail.com
I soon after got
a 300 baud DC Hayes Micromodem ][ for my Apple ][+, and later a 1200 baud model.
Then I went to work for the Computer Center, and got a direct
line to UNIX [N], one of several PDP 1170s down in the basement.
One of those server rooms with a partition full of pigeonholes,
where you could pick up your printout once it was done.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2021-09-26 15:55:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
The first modem I used was a 110 baud acoustic coupler, 1978.
I had one of those, around the same time.
Post by ***@gmail.com
I soon after got
a 300 baud DC Hayes Micromodem ][ for my Apple ][+, and later a 1200 baud model.
Then I went to work for the Computer Center, and got a direct
line to UNIX [N], one of several PDP 1170s down in the basement.
One of those server rooms with a partition full of pigeonholes,
where you could pick up your printout once it was done.
The UW Computer Center was set up that way in the mid to late 60s.

Only the Holy Priesthood of the Mighty Computer could actually enter
the computer room.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-09-26 18:10:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
The first modem I used was a 110 baud acoustic coupler, 1978.
I had one of those, around the same time.
Post by ***@gmail.com
I soon after got
a 300 baud DC Hayes Micromodem ][ for my Apple ][+, and later a 1200
baud model.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Then I went to work for the Computer Center, and got a direct
line to UNIX [N], one of several PDP 1170s down in the basement.
One of those server rooms with a partition full of pigeonholes,
where you could pick up your printout once it was done.
The UW Computer Center was set up that way in the mid to late 60s.
Only the Holy Priesthood of the Mighty Computer could actually enter
the computer room.
Well, one can understand their reasoning.

This site on The Register,

https://www.theregister.com/Tag/on-call

which updates every Friday and whose history now reaches back
into twenty pages,

has anecdotes about clueless users, clueless trainees, terminally
clueless management, and even clueful expert help-desk wallahs who
sometimes can't see an obvious bug because it's too close to their nose.
Highly recommended.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
J. Clarke
2021-09-26 21:27:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
The first modem I used was a 110 baud acoustic coupler, 1978.
I had one of those, around the same time.
Post by ***@gmail.com
I soon after got
a 300 baud DC Hayes Micromodem ][ for my Apple ][+, and later a 1200
baud model.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Then I went to work for the Computer Center, and got a direct
line to UNIX [N], one of several PDP 1170s down in the basement.
One of those server rooms with a partition full of pigeonholes,
where you could pick up your printout once it was done.
The UW Computer Center was set up that way in the mid to late 60s.
Only the Holy Priesthood of the Mighty Computer could actually enter
the computer room.
Well, one can understand their reasoning.
This site on The Register,
https://www.theregister.com/Tag/on-call
which updates every Friday and whose history now reaches back
into twenty pages,
has anecdotes about clueless users, clueless trainees, terminally
clueless management, and even clueful expert help-desk wallahs who
sometimes can't see an obvious bug because it's too close to their nose.
Highly recommended.
OTOH, I was sorely tempted to bust into the old computer center and
IPL the old mainframe a few weeks ago because the new mainframe
located in another state and not by us was not providing the same
performance as the "antiquated" system it was replacing.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-09-26 23:24:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
This site on The Register,
https://www.theregister.com/Tag/on-call
which updates every Friday and whose history now reaches back
into twenty pages,
has anecdotes about clueless users, clueless trainees, terminally
clueless management, and even clueful expert help-desk wallahs who
sometimes can't see an obvious bug because it's too close to their nose.
Highly recommended.
OTOH, I was sorely tempted to bust into the old computer center and
IPL the old mainframe a few weeks ago because the new mainframe
located in another state and not by us was not providing the same
performance as the "antiquated" system it was replacing.
So I googled IPL and got pages and pages about Indian Premier
League, who apparently play cricket in, yes, India.
So I had to ask Hal, who couldn't make out what I was talking
about (my speech has gotten slurred recently, I see a neurologist
about it in December), so he had to come over and read your post.

Whereupon he said, "Oh, Initial Program Load. He wants to boot
it up."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Quadibloc
2021-09-28 01:35:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
OTOH, I was sorely tempted to bust into the old computer center and
IPL the old mainframe a few weeks ago because the new mainframe
located in another state and not by us was not providing the same
performance as the "antiquated" system it was replacing.
So I googled IPL and got pages and pages about Indian Premier
League, who apparently play cricket in, yes, India.
So I had to ask Hal, who couldn't make out what I was talking
about (my speech has gotten slurred recently, I see a neurologist
about it in December), so he had to come over and read your post.
Whereupon he said, "Oh, Initial Program Load. He wants to boot
it up."
Oh dear.

IBM used a whole different vocabulary for its computers than the
rest of the computer industry.

Thus, what we call a "hard disk" is a DASD (direct-access storage
device) on an IBM mainframe.

Today, four-core computers are commonplace. In the days of the
IBM mainframe, you could also connect two computers to work
together, sharing memory and peripherals. This was called a
"parallel sysplex" configuration.

As for IPL on an IBM mainframe, there were differences between
it and booting up a computer today.

One of today's computers will usually boot from the hard disk.
If, when it's turned on, there's a CD-ROM in the CD drive, or a
USB stick inserted - and, at one point, a floppy disk in the floppy
drive - it might boot from that, or you might have to go into the
BIOS screen to enable booting from those places.

On an IBM mainframe, things were still automated to an
extent, but not in quite the same way. After all, it wasn't a
_consumer_ product. While IBM mainframes came in
different sizes, with front panels arranged in different ways,
the part of the front panel that did IPL was the same on all
of them. (It was the only part the customer would usually
use; the rest was for IBM technicians in case the computer
broke down.)

There was a set of three knobs, each of which contained the
digits 0 through F. Or the digits 0 through 9, followed by
the letters A through F - the dials were for entering a three-digit
hexadecimal number.

This was the port for whatever device the computer was going
to IPL *from*. It could be a magnetic tape drive, a card reader,
or a (usually removable disk) hard drive.

Usually what happened was that the knobs were set for the
card reader on first installation, and then left to the hard
drive setting ever after.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2021-09-28 01:49:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
OTOH, I was sorely tempted to bust into the old computer center and
IPL the old mainframe a few weeks ago because the new mainframe
located in another state and not by us was not providing the same
performance as the "antiquated" system it was replacing.
So I googled IPL and got pages and pages about Indian Premier
League, who apparently play cricket in, yes, India.
So I had to ask Hal, who couldn't make out what I was talking
about (my speech has gotten slurred recently, I see a neurologist
about it in December), so he had to come over and read your post.
Whereupon he said, "Oh, Initial Program Load. He wants to boot
it up."
Oh dear.
Incidentally, after reading about your predicament, I went to Google,
and typed in

ipl computer

and the first result I got was about "Initial Program Load", as were
some of the subsequent ones.

I also got a result about "Information Processing Language", though,
so this isn't a perfect strategy. But this is the sort of thing you can
try, if it's _that_ awkward to ask Hal.

John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-09-28 04:43:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
OTOH, I was sorely tempted to bust into the old computer center and
IPL the old mainframe a few weeks ago because the new mainframe
located in another state and not by us was not providing the same
performance as the "antiquated" system it was replacing.
So I googled IPL and got pages and pages about Indian Premier
League, who apparently play cricket in, yes, India.
So I had to ask Hal, who couldn't make out what I was talking
about (my speech has gotten slurred recently, I see a neurologist
about it in December), so he had to come over and read your post.
Whereupon he said, "Oh, Initial Program Load. He wants to boot
it up."
Oh dear.
Incidentally, after reading about your predicament, I went to Google,
and typed in
ipl computer
and the first result I got was about "Initial Program Load", as were
some of the subsequent ones.
I also got a result about "Information Processing Language", though,
so this isn't a perfect strategy. But this is the sort of thing you can
try, if it's _that_ awkward to ask Hal.
Not awkward at all: that's what I do when google lets me down.
Hal spends most of his waking hours at his computer. which is
about six meters from mine. We don't even need voicemail.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Quadibloc
2021-09-28 03:47:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
(my speech has gotten slurred recently, I see a neurologist
about it in December),
It's a pity you will have to wait that long; as that is seeing a specialist
in his office, and not elective surgery, I don't know if the pandemic has
anything to do with the delay.

I hope you get good news - i.e., a minor stroke, which either is unlikely
to be repeated, or which might be prevented by a prescription of some
anti-coagulant - and not bad news - like a brain tumor. Of course, I
don't know all that much about medicine, so there may be many other
possibilities.

John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-09-28 05:01:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
(my speech has gotten slurred recently, I see a neurologist
about it in December),
It's a pity you will have to wait that long; as that is seeing a specialist
in his office, and not elective surgery, I don't know if the pandemic has
^^^ her
Post by Quadibloc
anything to do with the delay.
I get the impression that she is very, very good, and therefore
very, very busy.
Post by Quadibloc
I hope you get good news - i.e., a minor stroke, which either is unlikely
to be repeated, or which might be prevented by a prescription of some
anti-coagulant
To the best of my knowledge, the closest thing I've ever had to a
stroke was a TIA on my right optic nerve, twenty years ao or
thereabouts. The vision out of that eye is pretty lousy.

Meg's friend Aldith suggested it might have been a series
of mini-strokes--which if it was, I never noticed them. Meg's
friend is not a doctor: she's a banker.

But my endocrinologist, who referred me to the neurologist, let
the phrase "myasthenis gravis" pass her lips, which if true would
be *good* news. There are treatments for MG, which so far there
aren't for CFS.

I would really like to get stronger: to be able to walk to the
bathroom without holding onto a piece of furniture with every
step, lest I fall. Then maybe I could start cataloguing and
boxing seventy zillion books, in preparation for moving out
of Vallejo next summer, which will also require cleaning the
house.
Post by Quadibloc
and not bad news - like a brain tumor. Of course, I
don't know all that much about medicine, so there may be many other
possibilities.
I once got shooting pains in my fingers and toes. Fearing a
brain tumor, I visited my doctor, who said calmly, "It's diabetic
neuropathy. I've been expecting you to develop diabetes, because
of your weight." It was a considerable relief. And I put the
incident into a story.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2021-09-28 06:37:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
(my speech has gotten slurred recently, I see a neurologist
about it in December),
It's a pity you will have to wait that long; as that is seeing a specialist
in his office, and not elective surgery, I don't know if the pandemic has
^^^ her
Post by Quadibloc
anything to do with the delay.
I get the impression that she is very, very good, and therefore
very, very busy.
Post by Quadibloc
I hope you get good news - i.e., a minor stroke, which either is unlikely
to be repeated, or which might be prevented by a prescription of some
anti-coagulant
To the best of my knowledge, the closest thing I've ever had to a
stroke was a TIA on my right optic nerve, twenty years ao or
thereabouts. The vision out of that eye is pretty lousy.
Meg's friend Aldith suggested it might have been a series
of mini-strokes--which if it was, I never noticed them. Meg's
friend is not a doctor: she's a banker.
But my endocrinologist, who referred me to the neurologist, let
the phrase "myasthenis gravis" pass her lips, which if true would
be *good* news. There are treatments for MG, which so far there
aren't for CFS.
I would really like to get stronger: to be able to walk to the
bathroom without holding onto a piece of furniture with every
step, lest I fall. Then maybe I could start cataloguing and
boxing seventy zillion books, in preparation for moving out
of Vallejo next summer, ....
...to your space habitat, like Heinlein's Waldo? :)
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
which will also require cleaning the house.
Post by Quadibloc
and not bad news - like a brain tumor. Of course, I
don't know all that much about medicine, so there may be many other
possibilities.
I once got shooting pains in my fingers and toes. Fearing a
brain tumor, I visited my doctor, who said calmly, "It's diabetic
neuropathy. I've been expecting you to develop diabetes, because
of your weight." It was a considerable relief. And I put the
incident into a story.
--
Seriously, I hope your specialist can ameliorate your problem
and improve your day-to-day health.
--
Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-09-28 13:18:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I would really like to get stronger: to be able to walk to the
bathroom without holding onto a piece of furniture with every
step, lest I fall. Then maybe I could start cataloguing and
boxing seventy zillion books, in preparation for moving out
of Vallejo next summer, ....
...to your space habitat, like Heinlein's Waldo? :)
That story crosses my mind on a regular basis. But Waldo lived
in his space habitat because there was no treatment for MG in
1942, when Heinlein wrote the story (and I was born, so that I
read the story much later than that). I want to go back to the
East Bay and live on the flats. Vallejo has too damn many hills,
and we currently live atop one of them.

The ground-level of the house (an in-law apartment, where Hal and
I hang out) is ten concrete steps, with no hand-rail, and to get
down them I have to descent on my behind, one step at a time, and
then get into the wheelchair with the help of Hal, Meg, or
Walkyr.

To get back *up*, I have to ascend on my behind, with one of the
abovenamed sturdy adults lifting under each armpit.

So it's an ordeal, and I wish it would go away ... or failing
that, that we could get into a place on the flats, accessed by a
ramp.
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
which [living in zero-G, like Waldo] will also require cleaning
the house.

It would also require a lot of tech (which Waldo had) and a lot
of money (which he also had).
Post by Kevrob
Seriously, I hope your specialist can ameliorate your problem
and improve your day-to-day health.
Thank you for the good wishes. I hope so too.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Lynn McGuire
2021-10-01 02:25:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
(my speech has gotten slurred recently, I see a neurologist
about it in December),
It's a pity you will have to wait that long; as that is seeing a specialist
in his office, and not elective surgery, I don't know if the pandemic has
^^^ her
Post by Quadibloc
anything to do with the delay.
I get the impression that she is very, very good, and therefore
very, very busy.
Post by Quadibloc
I hope you get good news - i.e., a minor stroke, which either is unlikely
to be repeated, or which might be prevented by a prescription of some
anti-coagulant
To the best of my knowledge, the closest thing I've ever had to a
stroke was a TIA on my right optic nerve, twenty years ao or
thereabouts. The vision out of that eye is pretty lousy.
Meg's friend Aldith suggested it might have been a series
of mini-strokes--which if it was, I never noticed them. Meg's
friend is not a doctor: she's a banker.
But my endocrinologist, who referred me to the neurologist, let
the phrase "myasthenis gravis" pass her lips, which if true would
be *good* news. There are treatments for MG, which so far there
aren't for CFS.
My 81 year old uncle has MG. And Diabetes. The two do not mix very
well. The steroids used to treat the MG counteract his insulin shots.
My aunt took him into the ER when he lost his vision one weekend after a
MG treatment, his blood sugar was 600. So when he is taking steroids
for MG, they now double his thrice ??? daily insulin shots.

Lynn
Paul S Person
2021-09-27 15:26:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
The first modem I used was a 110 baud acoustic coupler, 1978.
I had one of those, around the same time.
Post by ***@gmail.com
I soon after got
a 300 baud DC Hayes Micromodem ][ for my Apple ][+, and later a 1200
baud model.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Then I went to work for the Computer Center, and got a direct
line to UNIX [N], one of several PDP 1170s down in the basement.
One of those server rooms with a partition full of pigeonholes,
where you could pick up your printout once it was done.
The UW Computer Center was set up that way in the mid to late 60s.
Only the Holy Priesthood of the Mighty Computer could actually enter
the computer room.
Well, one can understand their reasoning.
I think the /main/ concern was that Dust might enter the Holy
Precincts. Which were closed off from the rest of the world and air
conditioned -- and I don't mean just kept cool.

But fear of users running wild was probably also a factor.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
This site on The Register,
https://www.theregister.com/Tag/on-call
which updates every Friday and whose history now reaches back
into twenty pages,
has anecdotes about clueless users, clueless trainees, terminally
clueless management, and even clueful expert help-desk wallahs who
sometimes can't see an obvious bug because it's too close to their nose.
Highly recommended.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-09-27 15:52:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
The first modem I used was a 110 baud acoustic coupler, 1978.
I had one of those, around the same time.
Post by ***@gmail.com
I soon after got
a 300 baud DC Hayes Micromodem ][ for my Apple ][+, and later a 1200
baud model.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Then I went to work for the Computer Center, and got a direct
line to UNIX [N], one of several PDP 1170s down in the basement.
One of those server rooms with a partition full of pigeonholes,
where you could pick up your printout once it was done.
The UW Computer Center was set up that way in the mid to late 60s.
Only the Holy Priesthood of the Mighty Computer could actually enter
the computer room.
Well, one can understand their reasoning.
I think the /main/ concern was that Dust might enter the Holy
Precincts. Which were closed off from the rest of the world and air
conditioned -- and I don't mean just kept cool.
Ah, yes. I had a short-term job keypunching as a graduate
student. This was in the mid-60s, and the keypunch room was kept
at maybe 60 Fahrenheit? maybe lower? /shiver
Post by Paul S Person
But fear of users running wild was probably also a factor.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
The Horny Goat
2021-09-28 05:27:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 08:55:10 -0700, Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
Only the Holy Priesthood of the Mighty Computer could actually enter
the computer room.
While they would never risk it during 9-5 the evening computer
operator commonly kept a case of beer under the floor tile directly
under the air conditioner during the summer months.

(Wink wink nudge nudge since booze was strictlly verboten on the
premises....)
The Horny Goat
2021-09-28 05:26:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
The first modem I used was a 110 baud acoustic coupler, 1978.
I had one of those, around the same time.
Post by ***@gmail.com
I soon after got
a 300 baud DC Hayes Micromodem ][ for my Apple ][+, and later a 1200 baud model.
Then I went to work for the Computer Center, and got a direct
line to UNIX [N], one of several PDP 1170s down in the basement.
One of those server rooms with a partition full of pigeonholes,
where you could pick up your printout once it was done.
That definitely brings back memories as well as the DECwriter
terminal/printers.

Later as a graduate TA I had agonies when I was facing my own masters'
level projects taking forever due to 50+ undergrads submitting their
Waterloo Basic programs on the VAX 11/780.... to the point I found out
when their exam schedule was and insured I was in the data center the
entire period of their exams. Commands that were taking 1/2 hour to
execute the previous day were taking under a second.....

(we're talking early 1980s here)
Paul S Person
2021-09-26 15:56:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Wolffan
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd
be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
This very strip is 5.4 MB. In 1980, on home equipment, it would take
something like ten hours to upload. In 1990, about 12 and a half
minutes. Today, of course, the time is humanly negligible.
it took literal hours to FTP down 6 to 9 MB files in the mid 1990s.
That would, of course, depend on the modem—but I see I was a little off
on the timeline. 57,600-bps home modems were nearer the turn of the
century than 1990. (I’m old enough to remember when speeds like that
could be achieved only by leasing eight lines to run in parallel, and
2000-bps dial-up modems were the size of a toaster oven.)
Post by Wolffan
Post by John W Kennedy
Hell, I can remember a time when it would have taken 24 hours. (I can
also remember a time when only a one-off water-cooled supercomputer
would meet the performance specs of a gawddam Apple Watch.)
The first modem I used was a 110 baud acoustic coupler, 1978. I soon after got
a 300 baud DC Hayes Micromodem ][ for my Apple ][+, and later a 1200 baud model.
Then 14k, 28k, 56k, and finally cable Internet in the mid 2000s.
At one point I owned a Winmodem.

This worked really well under OS/2 -- at the slowest speed (1200?).

I finally got real Windows 3.1 and tried it at a higher speed.

It didn't work -- I got garbage when I downloaded.

Microsoft Innovation is always a force to be feared.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Jay E. Morris
2021-09-27 03:12:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
At one point I owned a Winmodem.
This worked really well under OS/2 -- at the slowest speed (1200?).
I finally got real Windows 3.1 and tried it at a higher speed.
It didn't work -- I got garbage when I downloaded.
Microsoft Innovation is always a force to be feared.
And they did the same thing with printers. Didn't call them WinPrinters
though. I bought a Canon inkjet one loaded with features and could
handle tabloid size (11x17) paper.

And then about a year later MS removed the capability. Someone wrote a
driver for it but it only had about half the features.
Paul S Person
2021-09-27 15:28:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 22:12:17 -0500, "Jay E. Morris"
Post by Jay E. Morris
Post by Paul S Person
At one point I owned a Winmodem.
This worked really well under OS/2 -- at the slowest speed (1200?).
I finally got real Windows 3.1 and tried it at a higher speed.
It didn't work -- I got garbage when I downloaded.
Microsoft Innovation is always a force to be feared.
And they did the same thing with printers. Didn't call them WinPrinters
though. I bought a Canon inkjet one loaded with features and could
handle tabloid size (11x17) paper.
And then about a year later MS removed the capability. Someone wrote a
driver for it but it only had about half the features.
In the case of the modem, it was Windows that did all the fancy stuff.
The modem itself was quite ... ordinary ... without Windows doing all
the heavy lifting.

Or, rather, failing to do the heavy lifting. It was /very/
disappointing.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Wolffan
2021-09-25 21:35:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Wolffan
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd
be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
This very strip is 5.4 MB. In 1980, on home equipment, it would take
something like ten hours to upload. In 1990, about 12 and a half
minutes. Today, of course, the time is humanly negligible.
it took literal hours to FTP down 6 to 9 MB files in the mid 1990s.
That would, of course, depend on the modem—but I see I was a little off
on the timeline. 57,600-bps home modems were nearer the turn of the
century than 1990. (I’m old enough to remember when speeds like that
could be achieved only by leasing eight lines to run in parallel, and
2000-bps dial-up modems were the size of a toaster oven.)
when I started it was with a dedicated 33.6k modem, connecting to a First
Class BBS. Then a 56k network modem, connect at first to the BBS, then to the
FTP site. Getting an internet connection paid for itself in savings from
long-distance charges pretty much instantly. Then we got broadband; 1.5M.
What had taken hours now took minutes at most. After a bit the FTP site was
replaced by a website. We got a faster broadband connection, and didn’t
care that the downloads grew to 20+ and even 30+ MB, gigantic files which
would have taken most of a day to download from the BBS. And oh, our _file
server_ had two 4 GB drives, so you had to be careful that you didn’t use
up your allocated space. Fortunately I was also in charge of the network, so
I could up my allocation if necessary.

Nowadays I get more than 20 MB email in a morning and have allocated space on
the office system measured in tens or hundreds of GB; the office has a 300 M
connection, home has a 75 M connection. A 30 MB file would be both downloaded
in seconds and too small to be concerned about.
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Wolffan
Post by John W Kennedy
Hell, I can remember a time when it would have taken 24 hours. (I can
also remember a time when only a one-off water-cooled supercomputer
would meet the performance specs of a gawddam Apple Watch.)
oh, yes.
Paul S Person
2021-09-26 15:53:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Wolffan
Post by Wolffan
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd
be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
This very strip is 5.4 MB. In 1980, on home equipment, it would take
something like ten hours to upload. In 1990, about 12 and a half
minutes. Today, of course, the time is humanly negligible.
it took literal hours to FTP down 6 to 9 MB files in the mid 1990s.
That would, of course, depend on the modem—but I see I was a little off
on the timeline. 57,600-bps home modems were nearer the turn of the
century than 1990. (I’m old enough to remember when speeds like that
could be achieved only by leasing eight lines to run in parallel, and
2000-bps dial-up modems were the size of a toaster oven.)
when I started it was with a dedicated 33.6k modem, connecting to a First
Class BBS. Then a 56k network modem, connect at first to the BBS, then to the
FTP site. Getting an internet connection paid for itself in savings from
long-distance charges pretty much instantly. Then we got broadband; 1.5M.
What had taken hours now took minutes at most. After a bit the FTP site was
replaced by a website. We got a faster broadband connection, and didn’t
care that the downloads grew to 20+ and even 30+ MB, gigantic files which
would have taken most of a day to download from the BBS. And oh, our _file
server_ had two 4 GB drives, so you had to be careful that you didn’t use
up your allocated space. Fortunately I was also in charge of the network, so
I could up my allocation if necessary.
Nowadays I get more than 20 MB email in a morning and have allocated space on
the office system measured in tens or hundreds of GB; the office has a 300 M
connection, home has a 75 M connection. A 30 MB file would be both downloaded
in seconds and too small to be concerned about.
It's taken a while but, with my 2GB hard drive and 2GB external, I've
finally reached the point where a 30 MB file is indeed, too small to
worry about.

Twenty years ago I was counting every byte!
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
pete...@gmail.com
2021-09-27 01:30:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Wolffan
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Wolffan
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd
be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
This very strip is 5.4 MB. In 1980, on home equipment, it would take
something like ten hours to upload. In 1990, about 12 and a half
minutes. Today, of course, the time is humanly negligible.
it took literal hours to FTP down 6 to 9 MB files in the mid 1990s.
That would, of course, depend on the modem—but I see I was a little off
on the timeline. 57,600-bps home modems were nearer the turn of the
century than 1990. (I’m old enough to remember when speeds like that
could be achieved only by leasing eight lines to run in parallel, and
2000-bps dial-up modems were the size of a toaster oven.)
when I started it was with a dedicated 33.6k modem, connecting to a First
Class BBS. Then a 56k network modem, connect at first to the BBS, then to the
FTP site. Getting an internet connection paid for itself in savings from
long-distance charges pretty much instantly. Then we got broadband; 1.5M.
What had taken hours now took minutes at most. After a bit the FTP site was
replaced by a website. We got a faster broadband connection, and didn’t
care that the downloads grew to 20+ and even 30+ MB, gigantic files which
would have taken most of a day to download from the BBS. And oh, our _file
server_ had two 4 GB drives, so you had to be careful that you didn’t use
up your allocated space. Fortunately I was also in charge of the network, so
I could up my allocation if necessary.
Nowadays I get more than 20 MB email in a morning and have allocated space on
the office system measured in tens or hundreds of GB; the office has a 300 M
connection, home has a 75 M connection. A 30 MB file would be both downloaded
in seconds and too small to be concerned about.
It's taken a while but, with my 2GB hard drive and 2GB external, I've
finally reached the point where a 30 MB file is indeed, too small to
worry about.
Twenty years ago I was counting every byte!
Are those units correct?

My 6 year old phone came with 32 GB.

Pt
J. Clarke
2021-09-27 02:25:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Wolffan
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Wolffan
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd
be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
This very strip is 5.4 MB. In 1980, on home equipment, it would take
something like ten hours to upload. In 1990, about 12 and a half
minutes. Today, of course, the time is humanly negligible.
it took literal hours to FTP down 6 to 9 MB files in the mid 1990s.
That would, of course, depend on the modem—but I see I was a little off
on the timeline. 57,600-bps home modems were nearer the turn of the
century than 1990. (I’m old enough to remember when speeds like that
could be achieved only by leasing eight lines to run in parallel, and
2000-bps dial-up modems were the size of a toaster oven.)
when I started it was with a dedicated 33.6k modem, connecting to a First
Class BBS. Then a 56k network modem, connect at first to the BBS, then to the
FTP site. Getting an internet connection paid for itself in savings from
long-distance charges pretty much instantly. Then we got broadband; 1.5M.
What had taken hours now took minutes at most. After a bit the FTP site was
replaced by a website. We got a faster broadband connection, and didn’t
care that the downloads grew to 20+ and even 30+ MB, gigantic files which
would have taken most of a day to download from the BBS. And oh, our _file
server_ had two 4 GB drives, so you had to be careful that you didn’t use
up your allocated space. Fortunately I was also in charge of the network, so
I could up my allocation if necessary.
Nowadays I get more than 20 MB email in a morning and have allocated space on
the office system measured in tens or hundreds of GB; the office has a 300 M
connection, home has a 75 M connection. A 30 MB file would be both downloaded
in seconds and too small to be concerned about.
It's taken a while but, with my 2GB hard drive and 2GB external, I've
finally reached the point where a 30 MB file is indeed, too small to
worry about.
Twenty years ago I was counting every byte!
Are those units correct?
My 6 year old phone came with 32 GB.
I suspect he means 2 TB.
Paul S Person
2021-09-27 15:30:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 22:25:25 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Wolffan
Post by Wolffan
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd
be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
This very strip is 5.4 MB. In 1980, on home equipment, it would take
something like ten hours to upload. In 1990, about 12 and a half
minutes. Today, of course, the time is humanly negligible.
it took literal hours to FTP down 6 to 9 MB files in the mid 1990s.
That would, of course, depend on the modem—but I see I was a little off
on the timeline. 57,600-bps home modems were nearer the turn of the
century than 1990. (I’m old enough to remember when speeds like that
could be achieved only by leasing eight lines to run in parallel, and
2000-bps dial-up modems were the size of a toaster oven.)
when I started it was with a dedicated 33.6k modem, connecting to a First
Class BBS. Then a 56k network modem, connect at first to the BBS, then to the
FTP site. Getting an internet connection paid for itself in savings from
long-distance charges pretty much instantly. Then we got broadband; 1.5M.
What had taken hours now took minutes at most. After a bit the FTP site was
replaced by a website. We got a faster broadband connection, and didn’t
care that the downloads grew to 20+ and even 30+ MB, gigantic files which
would have taken most of a day to download from the BBS. And oh, our _file
server_ had two 4 GB drives, so you had to be careful that you didn’t use
up your allocated space. Fortunately I was also in charge of the network, so
I could up my allocation if necessary.
Nowadays I get more than 20 MB email in a morning and have allocated space on
the office system measured in tens or hundreds of GB; the office has a 300 M
connection, home has a 75 M connection. A 30 MB file would be both downloaded
in seconds and too small to be concerned about.
It's taken a while but, with my 2GB hard drive and 2GB external, I've
finally reached the point where a 30 MB file is indeed, too small to
worry about.
Twenty years ago I was counting every byte!
Are those units correct?
My 6 year old phone came with 32 GB.
I suspect he means 2 TB.
Good catch! You are correct.

I may have stopped obsessing about file sizes, but that doesn't mean
I'm used to measuring memory in terabytes!
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Quadibloc
2021-09-28 01:37:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
I may have stopped obsessing about file sizes, but that doesn't mean
I'm used to measuring memory in terabytes!
Well, the size of a hard disk is usually in terabytes. RAM is still in
gigabytes on all but very large servers.

John Savard
Paul S Person
2021-09-28 15:37:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:37:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Paul S Person
I may have stopped obsessing about file sizes, but that doesn't mean
I'm used to measuring memory in terabytes!
Well, the size of a hard disk is usually in terabytes. RAM is still in
gigabytes on all but very large servers.
For users, I suspect, only in the last decade or so.

And my experience suggests that 2TB will do users for a long. long
time.

I don't actually own a lot of digital movies, but I bet a /lot/ of
them would fit just fine on a 2TB external drive.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
pete...@gmail.com
2021-09-28 16:27:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:37:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Paul S Person
I may have stopped obsessing about file sizes, but that doesn't mean
I'm used to measuring memory in terabytes!
Well, the size of a hard disk is usually in terabytes. RAM is still in
gigabytes on all but very large servers.
For users, I suspect, only in the last decade or so.
And my experience suggests that 2TB will do users for a long. long
time.
I don't actually own a lot of digital movies, but I bet a /lot/ of
them would fit just fine on a 2TB external drive.
Ack around 1993, I was working at MITRE. One day an email was
sent around from the IT department to the effect they had filled
enough racks with HDs to amount to 2Tb of storage, and groups
were invited to submit proposals for projects which could benefit
from such an astronomical data store.

Today, that would fit in the palm of my hand, and cost under $200.

Pt
Titus G
2021-09-29 03:48:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:37:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Paul S Person
I may have stopped obsessing about file sizes, but that doesn't mean
I'm used to measuring memory in terabytes!
Well, the size of a hard disk is usually in terabytes. RAM is still in
gigabytes on all but very large servers.
For users, I suspect, only in the last decade or so.
And my experience suggests that 2TB will do users for a long. long
time.
I don't actually own a lot of digital movies, but I bet a /lot/ of
them would fit just fine on a 2TB external drive.
That is like saying, "I don't actually own a lot of analog movies, but I
bet a /lot/ of them would fit just fine in a long tall bookcase.".
Digital movies vary in size* and are usually expressed in gigabytes so
the number that would fit into 2TB would be very small in such terms,
probably less than 2KB. Whether that is a /lot/ of bookcase is debatable
but probably not worthy of so being.

*Avatar was over a Terabyte.
Post by ***@gmail.com
Ack around 1993, I was working at MITRE. One day an email was
sent around from the IT department to the effect they had filled
enough racks with HDs to amount to 2Tb of storage, and groups
were invited to submit proposals for projects which could benefit
from such an astronomical data store.
Today, that would fit in the palm of my hand, and cost under $200.
I can reminisce about the good old newsgroup days when some of the
veterans would wonder at the seventeen Zettabyte capability of the new
zphone currently on special at ExploiterMart for $7.95c.
Oh, those were simpler times!
(And of course that was long before the medical miracle, since lost,
that gave our permanent leader, beloved Donald, immortality.)
Paul S Person
2021-09-29 15:52:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:37:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Paul S Person
I may have stopped obsessing about file sizes, but that doesn't mean
I'm used to measuring memory in terabytes!
Well, the size of a hard disk is usually in terabytes. RAM is still in
gigabytes on all but very large servers.
For users, I suspect, only in the last decade or so.
And my experience suggests that 2TB will do users for a long. long
time.
I don't actually own a lot of digital movies, but I bet a /lot/ of
them would fit just fine on a 2TB external drive.
That is like saying, "I don't actually own a lot of analog movies, but I
bet a /lot/ of them would fit just fine in a long tall bookcase.".
Digital movies vary in size* and are usually expressed in gigabytes so
the number that would fit into 2TB would be very small in such terms,
probably less than 2KB. Whether that is a /lot/ of bookcase is debatable
but probably not worthy of so being.
*Avatar was over a Terabyte.
I suspect that you are describing HD. I am thinking SD.

I download rentals onto my HD6 regularly. Most are (IIRC) under 1 GB.
Only a few have reached 1GB (the largest I recall was 1.1GB). Some
are half that.

Well, with a 2.5 Mbps DSL connection they couldn't download in a
reasonable time if they were really large, now could they. Note that
this are Amazon SD rentals, which stream just fine (except for the odd
bit of netword congestion). In fact, when I first checked streaming
from Amazon out, they were claiming 0.99 Mbps would work (for SD).

But, even at 1 GB, 2TB would be about 2048 movies. My current DVD
collection contains 1155 programs, so I suspect that would be more
than adequate.

And, if it weren't, I could always add another 2TB external drive!
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Wolffan
2021-10-02 13:50:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Titus G
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:37:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Paul S Person
I may have stopped obsessing about file sizes, but that doesn't mean
I'm used to measuring memory in terabytes!
Well, the size of a hard disk is usually in terabytes. RAM is still in
gigabytes on all but very large servers.
For users, I suspect, only in the last decade or so.
And my experience suggests that 2TB will do users for a long. long
time.
I don't actually own a lot of digital movies, but I bet a /lot/ of
them would fit just fine on a 2TB external drive.
That is like saying, "I don't actually own a lot of analog movies, but I
bet a /lot/ of them would fit just fine in a long tall bookcase.".
Digital movies vary in size* and are usually expressed in gigabytes so
the number that would fit into 2TB would be very small in such terms,
probably less than 2KB. Whether that is a /lot/ of bookcase is debatable
but probably not worthy of so being.
*Avatar was over a Terabyte.
I suspect that you are describing HD. I am thinking SD.
I download rentals onto my HD6 regularly. Most are (IIRC) under 1 GB.
Only a few have reached 1GB (the largest I recall was 1.1GB). Some
are half that.
Well, with a 2.5 Mbps DSL connection they couldn't download in a
reasonable time if they were really large, now could they. Note that
this are Amazon SD rentals, which stream just fine (except for the odd
bit of netword congestion). In fact, when I first checked streaming
from Amazon out, they were claiming 0.99 Mbps would work (for SD).
But, even at 1 GB, 2TB would be about 2048 movies. My current DVD
collection contains 1155 programs, so I suspect that would be more
than adequate.
Standard DVD would usually be 1.5-4.5 GB, depending on many factors, and has
been known to hit 7 or 8 GB. HD Blu-ray tends to start at about 8 GB and get
bigger really fast; 20 or even 40 GB M4V and MKV files are common. My copy of
Rogue One (the ‘electronic copy’ which can be downloaded if you buy the
DVD/BR) is 5.45 GB in M4V format, a BR version would be way bigger.
Post by Paul S Person
And, if it weren't, I could always add another 2TB external drive!
2TB is relative puny. My movies/videos are on a 10 TB USB 3 external. I may
stick them on my NAS, which currently has four 8 TB drives. (I have a _lot_
of junk, collected over several decades...)
Paul S Person
2021-10-02 15:27:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Wolffan
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Titus G
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:37:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Paul S Person
I may have stopped obsessing about file sizes, but that doesn't mean
I'm used to measuring memory in terabytes!
Well, the size of a hard disk is usually in terabytes. RAM is still in
gigabytes on all but very large servers.
For users, I suspect, only in the last decade or so.
And my experience suggests that 2TB will do users for a long. long
time.
I don't actually own a lot of digital movies, but I bet a /lot/ of
them would fit just fine on a 2TB external drive.
That is like saying, "I don't actually own a lot of analog movies, but I
bet a /lot/ of them would fit just fine in a long tall bookcase.".
Digital movies vary in size* and are usually expressed in gigabytes so
the number that would fit into 2TB would be very small in such terms,
probably less than 2KB. Whether that is a /lot/ of bookcase is debatable
but probably not worthy of so being.
*Avatar was over a Terabyte.
I suspect that you are describing HD. I am thinking SD.
I download rentals onto my HD6 regularly. Most are (IIRC) under 1 GB.
Only a few have reached 1GB (the largest I recall was 1.1GB). Some
are half that.
Well, with a 2.5 Mbps DSL connection they couldn't download in a
reasonable time if they were really large, now could they. Note that
this are Amazon SD rentals, which stream just fine (except for the odd
bit of netword congestion). In fact, when I first checked streaming
from Amazon out, they were claiming 0.99 Mbps would work (for SD).
But, even at 1 GB, 2TB would be about 2048 movies. My current DVD
collection contains 1155 programs, so I suspect that would be more
than adequate.
Standard DVD would usually be 1.5-4.5 GB, depending on many factors, and has
been known to hit 7 or 8 GB. HD Blu-ray tends to start at about 8 GB and get
bigger really fast; 20 or even 40 GB M4V and MKV files are common. My copy of
Rogue One (the ‘electronic copy’ which can be downloaded if you buy the
DVD/BR) is 5.45 GB in M4V format, a BR version would be way bigger.
I signed up for Prime yesterday (a lot of films on my list are
Prime-only, and I get 30 days free). I tested it with /The Aeronauts/.
From it's length, the SD would be about 750MB. The download was 1.8GB,
and played with the "HD" marker turned on. This is about 2.5 times as
large. There does not appear to be a setting to tell the player to
download SD if available.

It looked fine but then, so do SD films. My Fire HD has only a 6"
screen, which may be relevant.

After watching the movie, I deleted the download and restarted it. It
then streamed the film -- in SD (the "HD" marker was turned off and,
anyway, HD won't stream properly over a 2.5Mbps DSL, as numerous HD
trailers have conclusively shown). The parts I looked at looked no
different from what I had seen before.

There was one peculiarity: the HD download started in "English
(Descriptive Audio)", which I found very confusing, particularly when
consulting the player showed that "English" was selected. However,
selecting "English (Descriptive Audio)" and then "English" fixed this
annoyance.

The streamed SD version did not have that problem, but perhaps the
player had learned something from its recent experience.

But this has nothing to do with DVD or BD. There is a /reason/ some of
my DVDs have ads at the start claiming that the only way to /really/
get the advantage of HD Video is to use a BD Disk in a BD Player.

Had SD video come early enough, DVDs would probably have made the same
claim. Or maybe the claim would have been made on VHS tapes.

And it was SD I was thinking of. Using HD, at (say) 2GB/film, would,
of course reduce the number of films per TB to about 512, making (as
you note below) a much larger drive more advisable.
Post by Wolffan
Post by Paul S Person
And, if it weren't, I could always add another 2TB external drive!
2TB is relative puny. My movies/videos are on a 10 TB USB 3 external. I may
stick them on my NAS, which currently has four 8 TB drives. (I have a _lot_
of junk, collected over several decades...)
As I noted elsewhere, were I to implement a storage solution, NAS
would be something I would be considering, to allow the TV (or BD
player) to stream the movies from the drive.

Note that I don't actually plan to do this any time soon. My DVD/BD
collection handles the "watch my films" part of the program, and Prime
would work as a "watch their films" program should I decide to go
there.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Torbjorn Lindgren
2021-10-02 22:57:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Wolffan
Post by Paul S Person
But, even at 1 GB, 2TB would be about 2048 movies. My current DVD
collection contains 1155 programs, so I suspect that would be more
than adequate.
Standard DVD would usually be 1.5-4.5 GB, depending on many factors, and has
been known to hit 7 or 8 GB.
Single-layer DVD can handle 4.7GB, dual-layer DVD can handle 8.5GB but
cost (slightly) more to produce. Beyond that you need either multiple
DVDs or use both sides. Note that on some really old low-end players
the playback can freeze for a second or so when switching layer but on
almost everything it's seamless. AFAIK almost all DVDs made these days
are dual-layer, the single layer ones were mostly seen very early on.

The pressing cost only depends on the number of disks and layers, as a
result most modern DVDs tends to be pretty close to the maximum
because the second layer cost almost nothing, avoids people accusing
the studio of cheaping out on the bitrate AND make it (very)
marginally harder to pirate back in the days due to being larger.
Post by Wolffan
HD Blu-ray tends to start at about 8 GB and get
bigger really fast; 20 or even 40 GB M4V and MKV files are common.
Standard Blu-ray Video has either 25GB or 50GB (1/2 layers) of space.
The format also support 100GB (3 layers) and 128GB (4 layers) but
those came later and I don't think you're allowed to make 3/4-layer Blu-ray
Video discs.

I'm wondering if UHD Blu-ray's (IE 4K) might allow that (128GB)?
Post by Wolffan
My copy of Rogue One (the ‘electronic copy’ which can be downloaded
if you buy the DVD/BR) is 5.45 GB in M4V format, a BR version would
be way bigger.
Yup, at least partly because it cost very little to dial up the
quality to maximum or beyond! on both audio and video on an Blu-ray,
the only goal that matters is "does it fit on the disc".

And that the Blu-ray files are larger is actually a benefit for the
studio just as with DVD's back in the day (see above). None of those
are big reasons but then if it doesn't add a layer there's no cost at
all so...

Adding the second layer does add a little bit of cost and even 25GB is
actually quite a lot so not everyone choose to go for 50GB.

One result of this is that Blu-ray's often have multiple high-bit rate
audio tracks, having 5+ GB of audio is not unheard of!

Of course when it distributed digital the balance change and sending
out these massive files would both cost money and provide a bad user
experience (slow download) so those cases they care a LOT more about
size than for Blu-rays, resulting in far smaller files.
Post by Wolffan
Post by Paul S Person
And, if it weren't, I could always add another 2TB external drive!
2TB is relative puny. My movies/videos are on a 10 TB USB 3 external. I may
stick them on my NAS, which currently has four 8 TB drives. (I have a _lot_
of junk, collected over several decades...)
Yeah, currently the largest announced 3.5" disks are 20TB - they also
announced a 22TB "SMR" disk but that's not suitable for normal use.

Not sure it's actually available in retail yet, but 18TB models are
definitely available (the previous largest size).

As usual the "largest" is unproportionally expensive for a variety of
reasons, I would expect that the lowest cost per GB is probably in the
8-14TB disk size range that you bought disks in.

Physical disk sizes are still going up and despite the prevalence of
SSD for many purposes the amount of physical storage installed
measured in TB keeps going up every year. IIRC the number of physical
disks sold are now either flat or very slightly decreasing but size
per unit is growing faster.
Paul S Person
2021-10-03 15:48:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 2 Oct 2021 22:57:00 -0000 (UTC), Torbjorn Lindgren
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Post by Wolffan
Post by Paul S Person
But, even at 1 GB, 2TB would be about 2048 movies. My current DVD
collection contains 1155 programs, so I suspect that would be more
than adequate.
Standard DVD would usually be 1.5-4.5 GB, depending on many factors, and has
been known to hit 7 or 8 GB.
Single-layer DVD can handle 4.7GB, dual-layer DVD can handle 8.5GB but
cost (slightly) more to produce. Beyond that you need either multiple
DVDs or use both sides. Note that on some really old low-end players
the playback can freeze for a second or so when switching layer but on
almost everything it's seamless. AFAIK almost all DVDs made these days
are dual-layer, the single layer ones were mostly seen very early on.
It has gotten smoother. /Bridge on the River Kwai/ was so bad that
people complained. When they found out it was deliberate, they
complained harder.
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
The pressing cost only depends on the number of disks and layers, as a
result most modern DVDs tends to be pretty close to the maximum
because the second layer cost almost nothing, avoids people accusing
the studio of cheaping out on the bitrate AND make it (very)
marginally harder to pirate back in the days due to being larger.
I always took it that the number of dual-layer disks purchased
increased as the negative feedback on DSSL disks (the first /JFK/,
/Into the Woods/, /Se7en/) "encouraged" going to SSDL (the second
/JFK/, /Into the Woods/, /Se7en/) [1]. I would have thought this would
drive the per-disk price down, due to economy of scale.

I also reasoned (if that's the word) that using exclusively dual-layer
blanks would be much safer -- no chance of producing 100,000 DVDs with
a dual-layer program on single-layer blanks that way.

[1] Other examples may exist.
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Post by Wolffan
HD Blu-ray tends to start at about 8 GB and get
bigger really fast; 20 or even 40 GB M4V and MKV files are common.
Standard Blu-ray Video has either 25GB or 50GB (1/2 layers) of space.
The format also support 100GB (3 layers) and 128GB (4 layers) but
those came later and I don't think you're allowed to make 3/4-layer Blu-ray
Video discs.
I'm wondering if UHD Blu-ray's (IE 4K) might allow that (128GB)?
That might explain why special players are needed. Or are they? It's
so hard for a non-techophile to keep up.
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Post by Wolffan
My copy of Rogue One (the ‘electronic copy’ which can be downloaded
if you buy the DVD/BR) is 5.45 GB in M4V format, a BR version would
be way bigger.
Yup, at least partly because it cost very little to dial up the
quality to maximum or beyond! on both audio and video on an Blu-ray,
the only goal that matters is "does it fit on the disc".
And that the Blu-ray files are larger is actually a benefit for the
studio just as with DVD's back in the day (see above). None of those
are big reasons but then if it doesn't add a layer there's no cost at
all so...
Adding the second layer does add a little bit of cost and even 25GB is
actually quite a lot so not everyone choose to go for 50GB.
And yet, Certain Films (the deMille /Ten Commandments/, the Heston
/Ben Hur/) appear to be only available on two discs, even in BD. This
was justified in DVD (certainly for /Ben Hur/), but its continuation
on BD can only be ascribed to -- marketing. "We can charge more if it
has two discs!". Or, perhaps, Tradition: "We've always done it that
way".
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
One result of this is that Blu-ray's often have multiple high-bit rate
audio tracks, having 5+ GB of audio is not unheard of!
Of course when it distributed digital the balance change and sending
out these massive files would both cost money and provide a bad user
experience (slow download) so those cases they care a LOT more about
size than for Blu-rays, resulting in far smaller files.
Post by Wolffan
Post by Paul S Person
And, if it weren't, I could always add another 2TB external drive!
2TB is relative puny. My movies/videos are on a 10 TB USB 3 external. I may
stick them on my NAS, which currently has four 8 TB drives. (I have a _lot_
of junk, collected over several decades...)
Yeah, currently the largest announced 3.5" disks are 20TB - they also
announced a 22TB "SMR" disk but that's not suitable for normal use.
Not sure it's actually available in retail yet, but 18TB models are
definitely available (the previous largest size).
As usual the "largest" is unproportionally expensive for a variety of
reasons, I would expect that the lowest cost per GB is probably in the
8-14TB disk size range that you bought disks in.
Physical disk sizes are still going up and despite the prevalence of
SSD for many purposes the amount of physical storage installed
measured in TB keeps going up every year. IIRC the number of physical
disks sold are now either flat or very slightly decreasing but size
per unit is growing faster.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Torbjorn Lindgren
2021-10-03 19:53:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 2 Oct 2021 22:57:00 -0000 (UTC), Torbjorn Lindgren
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Single-layer DVD can handle 4.7GB, dual-layer DVD can handle 8.5GB but
cost (slightly) more to produce. Beyond that you need either multiple
DVDs or use both sides. Note that on some really old low-end players
the playback can freeze for a second or so when switching layer but on
almost everything it's seamless. AFAIK almost all DVDs made these days
are dual-layer, the single layer ones were mostly seen very early on.
[...]
Post by Paul S Person
I also reasoned (if that's the word) that using exclusively dual-layer
blanks would be much safer -- no chance of producing 100,000 DVDs with
a dual-layer program on single-layer blanks that way.
I might be wrong but from my impression of the process there's no such
difference in the "blanks". The difference comes in whether you press
one thicker layer or two thinner ones.

I'd expect the extra steps necessary will always mean dual layer will
cost more, but that any excess inventory of either type will get used
eventually so that scenario can't happen.
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Standard Blu-ray Video has either 25GB or 50GB (1/2 layers) of space.
The format also support 100GB (3 layers) and 128GB (4 layers) but
those came later and I don't think you're allowed to make 3/4-layer Blu-ray
Video discs.
I'm wondering if UHD Blu-ray's (IE 4K) might allow that (128GB)?
That might explain why special players are needed. Or are they? It's
so hard for a non-techophile to keep up.
UDH Blu-ray needs specific new UHD branded players and won't play on
non-UHD players because it won't understand the video data even if it
can read the disk.

At least some of the time you get a regular HD Blu-ray with the
purchase because the pressing cost really is negligable. Not sure how
common this is but it would avoid issues.

And to answer myself, apparently UHD Blu-rays can be one of 50GB, 66GB
or 100GB. A very old HD Blu-ray player would be able to "read" the
files on the 50GB disk variant but as mentioned above couldn't PLAY
it. I would expect/hope it would just eject all of them.
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Post by Wolffan
My copy of Rogue One (the ‘electronic copy’ which can be downloaded
if you buy the DVD/BR) is 5.45 GB in M4V format, a BR version would
be way bigger.
Yup, at least partly because it cost very little to dial up the
quality to maximum or beyond! on both audio and video on an Blu-ray,
the only goal that matters is "does it fit on the disc".
And that the Blu-ray files are larger is actually a benefit for the
studio just as with DVD's back in the day (see above). None of those
are big reasons but then if it doesn't add a layer there's no cost at
all so...
Adding the second layer does add a little bit of cost and even 25GB is
actually quite a lot so not everyone choose to go for 50GB.
And yet, Certain Films (the deMille /Ten Commandments/, the Heston
/Ben Hur/) appear to be only available on two discs, even in BD. This
was justified in DVD (certainly for /Ben Hur/), but its continuation
on BD can only be ascribed to -- marketing. "We can charge more if it
has two discs!". Or, perhaps, Tradition: "We've always done it that
way".
If we believe Wikipedia all HD Blu-ray launched in the first few
months used the old MPEG-2 (same as DVD) video encoding which would
MASSIVELY increase the amount of space needed for a given video
quality.

Additionally few or none? of the launch titles were dual-layers disks
either because that was obviously much harder (and expensive) to get
working.

I could easily believe that these two could have been launch titles
using MPEG-2 video on single layer(25GB) disks, IIRC conventional
wisdom at the time was that one shouldn't exceed ~2 hours with that
combination and both far exceed that at 3h 32m and 3h 40m.

If that's the case using two disks made perfect sense at the time,
doing it on one disk would have created massive backlash especially
since films like that would be considered "showcases" for the new
format.

The use of MPEG-2 video continued much longer with some brands either
due to their production tools or because they were unwilling to pay
the costs of using h.264 or VC-1 instead. Disks OTOH was dirt cheap.

Even if we assume they had access to dual-layer disks I could see
those specific films being long *and* important enough that someone
may decided to go with say one dual-layer and one single-layer (or
DL+DL) if they still used MPEG-2 video just to make SURE it blew the
socks off the competition.


Googling on "Ben-Hur UHD" I don't see a UHD edition of it in the
normal places, but specialist places say it's available for pre-order.
The specification say it comes with two disks, one UHD and one HD (for
those that don't have UHD player yet).

So I assume they either already had an updated single disks Ben-Hur HD
Blu-ray that or that they created it when they were re-mastering for
UHD, it would have been trivial to do so (and likely significantly
improve the quality of the HD Blu-ray).

Amazon.com do list a The Ten Commandments UHD, this has 3 disks and
again we're told it comes with both UHD and HD media, this one is a
bit harder to decode but obviously at least ONE of those can't be
multi-disk :-)

My guess is that the most likely scenario is that they were lazy and
just reused the old 2 HD disks they already have and just added a new
UHD disk but I guess it's POSSIBLE the three disks are actually UHD,
HD and Extras (fine in HD).
Paul S Person
2021-10-04 16:09:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 3 Oct 2021 19:53:28 -0000 (UTC), Torbjorn Lindgren
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 2 Oct 2021 22:57:00 -0000 (UTC), Torbjorn Lindgren
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Single-layer DVD can handle 4.7GB, dual-layer DVD can handle 8.5GB but
cost (slightly) more to produce. Beyond that you need either multiple
DVDs or use both sides. Note that on some really old low-end players
the playback can freeze for a second or so when switching layer but on
almost everything it's seamless. AFAIK almost all DVDs made these days
are dual-layer, the single layer ones were mostly seen very early on.
[...]
Post by Paul S Person
I also reasoned (if that's the word) that using exclusively dual-layer
blanks would be much safer -- no chance of producing 100,000 DVDs with
a dual-layer program on single-layer blanks that way.
I might be wrong but from my impression of the process there's no such
difference in the "blanks". The difference comes in whether you press
one thicker layer or two thinner ones.
That's interesting.
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
I'd expect the extra steps necessary will always mean dual layer will
cost more, but that any excess inventory of either type will get used
eventually so that scenario can't happen.
There appears to be some cognitive dissonance here: if the difference
is in how they are /pressed/, then their can't be more than one
"type".

This presupposes that we are using "blanks" the same way. I am using
it to mean the discs purchased from the manufacturer with no program
on them which the publisher then puts the program on, presumably by
pressing as opposed to recording.

But perhaps you were using "blanks" to refer to something the
manufacturer first produces, which the manufacturer then presses into
one or two /blank/ layers.

Sorry for any confusion.
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Standard Blu-ray Video has either 25GB or 50GB (1/2 layers) of space.
The format also support 100GB (3 layers) and 128GB (4 layers) but
those came later and I don't think you're allowed to make 3/4-layer Blu-ray
Video discs.
I'm wondering if UHD Blu-ray's (IE 4K) might allow that (128GB)?
That might explain why special players are needed. Or are they? It's
so hard for a non-techophile to keep up.
UDH Blu-ray needs specific new UHD branded players and won't play on
non-UHD players because it won't understand the video data even if it
can read the disk.
At least some of the time you get a regular HD Blu-ray with the
purchase because the pressing cost really is negligable. Not sure how
common this is but it would avoid issues.
And to answer myself, apparently UHD Blu-rays can be one of 50GB, 66GB
or 100GB. A very old HD Blu-ray player would be able to "read" the
files on the 50GB disk variant but as mentioned above couldn't PLAY
it. I would expect/hope it would just eject all of them.
Or, at least, eject them when so directed by the user.
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Post by Wolffan
My copy of Rogue One (the ‘electronic copy’ which can be downloaded
if you buy the DVD/BR) is 5.45 GB in M4V format, a BR version would
be way bigger.
Yup, at least partly because it cost very little to dial up the
quality to maximum or beyond! on both audio and video on an Blu-ray,
the only goal that matters is "does it fit on the disc".
And that the Blu-ray files are larger is actually a benefit for the
studio just as with DVD's back in the day (see above). None of those
are big reasons but then if it doesn't add a layer there's no cost at
all so...
Adding the second layer does add a little bit of cost and even 25GB is
actually quite a lot so not everyone choose to go for 50GB.
And yet, Certain Films (the deMille /Ten Commandments/, the Heston
/Ben Hur/) appear to be only available on two discs, even in BD. This
was justified in DVD (certainly for /Ben Hur/), but its continuation
on BD can only be ascribed to -- marketing. "We can charge more if it
has two discs!". Or, perhaps, Tradition: "We've always done it that
way".
If we believe Wikipedia all HD Blu-ray launched in the first few
months used the old MPEG-2 (same as DVD) video encoding which would
MASSIVELY increase the amount of space needed for a given video
quality.
Additionally few or none? of the launch titles were dual-layers disks
either because that was obviously much harder (and expensive) to get
working.
I could easily believe that these two could have been launch titles
using MPEG-2 video on single layer(25GB) disks, IIRC conventional
wisdom at the time was that one shouldn't exceed ~2 hours with that
combination and both far exceed that at 3h 32m and 3h 40m.
If that's the case using two disks made perfect sense at the time,
doing it on one disk would have created massive backlash especially
since films like that would be considered "showcases" for the new
format.
The use of MPEG-2 video continued much longer with some brands either
due to their production tools or because they were unwilling to pay
the costs of using h.264 or VC-1 instead. Disks OTOH was dirt cheap.
Even if we assume they had access to dual-layer disks I could see
those specific films being long *and* important enough that someone
may decided to go with say one dual-layer and one single-layer (or
DL+DL) if they still used MPEG-2 video just to make SURE it blew the
socks off the competition.
Googling on "Ben-Hur UHD" I don't see a UHD edition of it in the
normal places, but specialist places say it's available for pre-order.
The specification say it comes with two disks, one UHD and one HD (for
those that don't have UHD player yet).
So I assume they either already had an updated single disks Ben-Hur HD
Blu-ray that or that they created it when they were re-mastering for
UHD, it would have been trivial to do so (and likely significantly
improve the quality of the HD Blu-ray).
https://www.blu-ray.com/

The latest /Ben-Hur/ appears to be
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Ben-Hur-Blu-ray/106655/
but whether the BD-50 has the film on it is unknown -- unless, when I
checked with the Forum some years back, it was out and so included in
the clear statement that no film-on-one-disk version existed.

The Amazon version
<https://www.amazon.com/Ben-Hur-Blu-ray/dp/B00LB3O9OI?tag=bluray-027-20&linkCode=ogi&th=1&psc=1&m=>
appears to be missing one of the 3 discs. The description can
certainly be interpreted as "one film spread over two discs".

The reviews, of course, are pointless; the first appears to be of the
remake. There is no reason to believe that /any/ of them are, or are
not, referring to this particular package.
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Amazon.com do list a The Ten Commandments UHD, this has 3 disks and
again we're told it comes with both UHD and HD media, this one is a
bit harder to decode but obviously at least ONE of those can't be
multi-disk :-)
My guess is that the most likely scenario is that they were lazy and
just reused the old 2 HD disks they already have and just added a new
UHD disk but I guess it's POSSIBLE the three disks are actually UHD,
HD and Extras (fine in HD).
That would be this one, I suspect:
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Ten-Commandments-4K-Blu-ray/282780/
Note the 3 discs:
1 BD-100
2 BD-50
which illustrates something I've seen with other films: originally,
the two discs/two sides originally were single-layer, but, at some
point, they became dual-layer /with no indication of a new transfer/.

IOW, the single-layer files were simply used on a dual-layer disc.
This is one reason I suspected that single-layer had become disfavored
even for programs that would fit on it: dual-layer appears to have
been used when there is clearly no need for the extra space.

I don't know that I am interested in buying a UHD player just to get
these on one side of one disk. For one thing, I use a convertor chain
to convert HDMI 1080p to SVGA for input to my NTSC TV set, and I'm not
sure that would work with whatever a UHD player produces.

Note that this is the disc -> TV set setup that I use for DVDs and
BDs, /not/ the Fire HD 6 solution I use for rented (or, now, Prime)
digital video. These are completely separate.

But I will keep the possibility that that is a solution in mind, for
future research.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Torbjorn Lindgren
2021-10-04 21:23:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 3 Oct 2021 19:53:28 -0000 (UTC), Torbjorn Lindgren
This presupposes that we are using "blanks" the same way. I am using
it to mean the discs purchased from the manufacturer with no program
on them which the publisher then puts the program on, presumably by
pressing as opposed to recording.
I doubt that this exists for pressed Blu-ray or DVD media, it's how
writable media is done but that's a VERY different kettle of fish.

Even the simplest single-layer DVD has the data layer deep inside the
media for protection so it can't just be "pressed" with groves/pits
like it was a vinyl.
Post by Paul S Person
But perhaps you were using "blanks" to refer to something the
manufacturer first produces, which the manufacturer then presses into
one or two /blank/ layers.
Ah, found a picture of how a dual-layer Blu-ray is layers (there's no
better word).

https://azuradisc.com/about-discs/how-a-cd-is-made-2-2/

What I called blank earlier is the second layer in that picture, the
"base" which combined with the very thin "dampproof layer" makes up
the top 1.1mm of the finished disk, I expect the front picture is on
or part of the dampproof layer.

Under the base (towards the laser) is the (pressed) L0 layer, an
intermediate layer, the (pressed) L1 layer, the transparent cover
layer and the hard coat, all this combined takes up 0.1mm. Together
with the top and base layers (above) this give the finished disk the
same thickness as an DVD, IE 1.2mm.

For say a 4 layer disk add 4 more layers (I/L2/I/L3) between the L1
and the cover layer, all the layers needs to be thinner since it's now
9 layers in 0.1mm (7 for 3 layer disk) instead of "only" 5/3
(dual/single-layer Blu-ray).

Obviously that kind of disk can't be made as a full blank, there's no way
to create the pits once all the layers on top are on it. Laser could
in theory make the pits IF it's just one layer but would cause enough
damage that the disk wouldn't be readable.

My GUESS would be that the L0/L1(/L2/L3) layers are made separately
and then all the layers are stacked and then it's.. pressed together
which fuses everything together, it needs to be sealed because if any
water gets to the inner layers the disk will go bad very quickly (this
did happen on some early DVDs).

All this stuff could be delivered as bulk material or in a partially
finished state, my bet would be that in most cases it would arrive as
"bulk" because that gives them much more control over the thin layers
necessary and they use a LOT.

AFAIK most/all? Vinyl pressing starts with bulk material too
(granulate, no disks), so it seems likely even the "base" likely comes
to the factory as bulk material.
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Googling on "Ben-Hur UHD" I don't see a UHD edition of it in the
normal places, but specialist places say it's available for pre-order.
The specification say it comes with two disks, one UHD and one HD (for
those that don't have UHD player yet).
So I assume they either already had an updated single disks Ben-Hur HD
Blu-ray that or that they created it when they were re-mastering for
UHD, it would have been trivial to do so (and likely significantly
improve the quality of the HD Blu-ray).
https://www.blu-ray.com/
The latest /Ben-Hur/ appears to be
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Ben-Hur-Blu-ray/106655/
but whether the BD-50 has the film on it is unknown -- unless, when I
checked with the Forum some years back, it was out and so included in
the clear statement that no film-on-one-disk version existed.
No, as I said I was discussing an no yet relased UHD variant that some
sites are offering pre-orders on, not the old HD variant you are
referring to.

https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Ben-Hur-4K-Blu-ray/251140/
https://www.hdmoviesource.com/Ben-Hur-1959-4K-Ultra-HD-Blu-ray-p/13589.htm

Without a release date it's possible it won't see the light of day
though hdmoviesource seems fairly confident. I'm confident a
BD-50+BD-100 set definitely could have both a number of extras and
very high quality these days.

To address the 3-disk HD Blu-ray set, it says 2xBD-25+1xBD-50. If we
add up the listed audio and video bitrates we end up a bit above 50GB
for the main feature of 222 minutes.

It's a bit weird since the bitrates is definitely too high for a 222
minute BD-50 and unnecessarily low for a BD-50+BD25 for the movie...
But the DTS-HD MA stream could be really huge I guess or the way they
sliced into two parts resulted in lot of wasted space (IE say perhaps
40+20 GB)

The other option is that the listed bitrates are a bit too high and
the two BD-25 are both for "extras" but then why not just use a single
cheaper BD-50, this makes even less sense.
Post by Paul S Person
The Amazon version
<https://www.amazon.com/Ben-Hur-Blu-ray/dp/B00LB3O9OI?tag=bluray-027-20&linkCode=ogi&th=1&psc=1&m=>
appears to be missing one of the 3 discs. The description can
certainly be interpreted as "one film spread over two discs".
I get the WD Diamond Deluxe 3 disk edition via that link, the one you
referenced above. But I see other HD Blu-ray editions as options, all
those seems to have 2 disks but it's unclear if that's one disk for
movie and one for extras or if the movie spans both disks.

The ones I checked didn't have average video bitrates listed so I
couldn't rule out either option without access to the disks.


[... The Ten Commandments ...]
Post by Paul S Person
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Ten-Commandments-4K-Blu-ray/282780/
1 BD-100
2 BD-50
which illustrates something I've seen with other films: originally,
the two discs/two sides originally were single-layer, but, at some
point, they became dual-layer /with no indication of a new transfer/.
IOW, the single-layer files were simply used on a dual-layer disc.
This is one reason I suspected that single-layer had become disfavored
even for programs that would fit on it: dual-layer appears to have
been used when there is clearly no need for the extra space.
Except the database you says that's NOT the case here, IE even the
earliest 2011 Blu-rayÂŽ+DVD releases was already 2xBD-50 so they
started with dual-layer, not single-layer.

And... it also lists the average video bitrate for some of the 2011
releases which means we can see that for those 2xBD-50 sets just the
video data for the movie (231 minutes) would need at least 59GB.

So that transfer/encoding can't possibly ever have fit on 2xBD-25...

With audio the main movie I'm guessing the is probably in the 63-66GB
range but could be larger, up to ~84GB in theory! if they went
absolute bonkers on the audio streams which I really doubt.

Even at reasonable audio bitrates it wouldn't take that much extras
for it to no longer fit on say BD-50+BD-25 and that ignores the fact
that they likely split the movie in a much better place than "oops, we
just ran out disk space" so the first disk likely have quite a bit of
free space.

So basically 2xBD-50 was the obvious option with an 34.59 Mbps average
video bitrate and some extras. BD-50+2xBD-25 with extras on the second
BD-25 might also have worked but depends on where they cut the movie.
Post by Paul S Person
I don't know that I am interested in buying a UHD player just to get
these on one side of one disk. For one thing, I use a convertor chain
to convert HDMI 1080p to SVGA for input to my NTSC TV set, and I'm not
sure that would work with whatever a UHD player produces.
UHD players generally produce HDMI 2.0, but (post 2014) Blu-ray and
(all) UHD players "should" output a 480p signal or nothing rather than
1080p/2160p if they can't get end-to-end HDCP encryption. And your
chain most definitely shouldn't qualify for that.

I assume you have a workaround for whatever player you currently have
or that it's pre-2014, it wasn't enforced at all on the first wave of
players and the first few implementations now have easy ways to get
around it..

But all these UHD players are, well, newer, and the rules are enforced
much harder now. There ARE still ways around it but I'm fairly
confident your existing Heath Robinson inspired chain won't work well.

And given the description of the chain I'm also confident that the
chain (and likely the display) can't use the extra resolution anyway.

And if you get a 4K capable device it'll have the appropriate ports
and you just connect it via a simple HDMI cable, there's generally no
need to faff around.
Robert Carnegie
2021-10-05 10:19:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Re two discs Blu-ray: what are the odds that the movie
fits onto one disc and the "features", documentaries and
interviews and could be a chariot racing game, require
the second disc?
Paul S Person
2021-10-05 15:51:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 03:19:45 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Re two discs Blu-ray: what are the odds that the movie
fits onto one disc and the "features", documentaries and
interviews and could be a chariot racing game, require
the second disc?
Since, when I asked about it a few years back, those who owned a copy
of the various editions all agreed that the film was spread over two
disks, I would say -- very slim.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Paul S Person
2021-10-05 15:50:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 4 Oct 2021 21:23:53 -0000 (UTC), Torbjorn Lindgren
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 3 Oct 2021 19:53:28 -0000 (UTC), Torbjorn Lindgren
This presupposes that we are using "blanks" the same way. I am using
it to mean the discs purchased from the manufacturer with no program
on them which the publisher then puts the program on, presumably by
pressing as opposed to recording.
I doubt that this exists for pressed Blu-ray or DVD media, it's how
writable media is done but that's a VERY different kettle of fish.
Even the simplest single-layer DVD has the data layer deep inside the
media for protection so it can't just be "pressed" with groves/pits
like it was a vinyl.
Ah.

So I have completely misunderstood the situation.

Thanks for the clarification.

<further very interesting detail snipped>
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Googling on "Ben-Hur UHD" I don't see a UHD edition of it in the
normal places, but specialist places say it's available for pre-order.
The specification say it comes with two disks, one UHD and one HD (for
those that don't have UHD player yet).
So I assume they either already had an updated single disks Ben-Hur HD
Blu-ray that or that they created it when they were re-mastering for
UHD, it would have been trivial to do so (and likely significantly
improve the quality of the HD Blu-ray).
https://www.blu-ray.com/
The latest /Ben-Hur/ appears to be
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Ben-Hur-Blu-ray/106655/
but whether the BD-50 has the film on it is unknown -- unless, when I
checked with the Forum some years back, it was out and so included in
the clear statement that no film-on-one-disk version existed.
No, as I said I was discussing an no yet relased UHD variant that some
sites are offering pre-orders on, not the old HD variant you are
referring to.
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Ben-Hur-4K-Blu-ray/251140/
https://www.hdmoviesource.com/Ben-Hur-1959-4K-Ultra-HD-Blu-ray-p/13589.htm
Without a release date it's possible it won't see the light of day
though hdmoviesource seems fairly confident. I'm confident a
BD-50+BD-100 set definitely could have both a number of extras and
very high quality these days.
To address the 3-disk HD Blu-ray set, it says 2xBD-25+1xBD-50. If we
add up the listed audio and video bitrates we end up a bit above 50GB
for the main feature of 222 minutes.
It's a bit weird since the bitrates is definitely too high for a 222
minute BD-50 and unnecessarily low for a BD-50+BD25 for the movie...
But the DTS-HD MA stream could be really huge I guess or the way they
sliced into two parts resulted in lot of wasted space (IE say perhaps
40+20 GB)
The other option is that the listed bitrates are a bit too high and
the two BD-25 are both for "extras" but then why not just use a single
cheaper BD-50, this makes even less sense.
I suspect that, whatever the story is, it makes no sense at all.

But it would be nice if the movie were all on the BD-50.
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Post by Paul S Person
The Amazon version
<https://www.amazon.com/Ben-Hur-Blu-ray/dp/B00LB3O9OI?tag=bluray-027-20&linkCode=ogi&th=1&psc=1&m=>
appears to be missing one of the 3 discs. The description can
certainly be interpreted as "one film spread over two discs".
I get the WD Diamond Deluxe 3 disk edition via that link, the one you
referenced above. But I see other HD Blu-ray editions as options, all
those seems to have 2 disks but it's unclear if that's one disk for
movie and one for extras or if the movie spans both disks.
Yes, you do get the WD Diamond Deluxe editiion, but the second image
(the one showing what it looks like unfolded) only shows two discs!

But perhaps the one on the left-most panel was removed before the
image was made for some reason. Or perhaps the two BD-25s are stacked
on top of each other. Wily are the ways of Marketing.

It should go without saying that this sort of confusion and
inconsistency does /not/ encourage me to buy it!
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
The ones I checked didn't have average video bitrates listed so I
couldn't rule out either option without access to the disks.
That's the advantage of the forum: people who bought it can answer
these sorts of questions.
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
[... The Ten Commandments ...]
Post by Paul S Person
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Ten-Commandments-4K-Blu-ray/282780/
1 BD-100
2 BD-50
which illustrates something I've seen with other films: originally,
the two discs/two sides originally were single-layer, but, at some
point, they became dual-layer /with no indication of a new transfer/.
IOW, the single-layer files were simply used on a dual-layer disc.
This is one reason I suspected that single-layer had become disfavored
even for programs that would fit on it: dual-layer appears to have
been used when there is clearly no need for the extra space.
Except the database you says that's NOT the case here, IE even the
earliest 2011 Blu-ray´+DVD releases was already 2xBD-50 so they
started with dual-layer, not single-layer.
I regret that this was a poor example. I believe the DVDs of /Oliver!/
do illustrate this, but that is harder to check.

In any case, we have impressions building on impressions here. Nothing
really firm, just fun to think about.

<snippo tech info>
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Post by Paul S Person
I don't know that I am interested in buying a UHD player just to get
these on one side of one disk. For one thing, I use a convertor chain
to convert HDMI 1080p to SVGA for input to my NTSC TV set, and I'm not
sure that would work with whatever a UHD player produces.
UHD players generally produce HDMI 2.0, but (post 2014) Blu-ray and
(all) UHD players "should" output a 480p signal or nothing rather than
1080p/2160p if they can't get end-to-end HDCP encryption. And your
chain most definitely shouldn't qualify for that.
I assume you have a workaround for whatever player you currently have
or that it's pre-2014, it wasn't enforced at all on the first wave of
players and the first few implementations now have easy ways to get
around it..
But all these UHD players are, well, newer, and the rules are enforced
much harder now. There ARE still ways around it but I'm fairly
confident your existing Heath Robinson inspired chain won't work well.
And given the description of the chain I'm also confident that the
chain (and likely the display) can't use the extra resolution anyway.
The chain can't use the 1080i, and locks up with 720p (well, unless
the player does this), and shifts the picture to the left with 480p
(well, unless the player does this) but works fine with 1080p YPbPr.

The HDCP problem has been finessed. Simply confirming that that /was/
the problem involved purchasing an external BD drive for the computer
and a full-scale software suite (as opposed to the free version that
came with the computer), as the BD Player simply Didn't Work, no
explanation offered. I imagine this is what kept the Ruku I tried and
returned from working a year or so earlier. After that, it was a
surprising simple matter of using Google and buying a particular
device.

Some guy who reviews HD equipment for a living got tired of having to
guess what was going on when HDCP failed because the device /refused
to display an error message/. So he found a solution and put it out
there for all to see.
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
And if you get a 4K capable device it'll have the appropriate ports
and you just connect it via a simple HDMI cable, there's generally no
need to faff around.
Provided one has an HDMI TV. of course. If not, trust me on this, a
lot of faffing around is required.

But, if it can be made to output 1080p VPbPr from a 4K disc, then the
convertor chain should be able to handle it. Provided the HDCP
solution still works, of course.

The display is currently using S-Video so, no, it won't give HD or UHD
resolution. But it is a CRT: it shows fast action sequences
/unblurred/ [1]. I would like it to use VPbPr Component Video, but
/that/, it turns out, requires a scaler from 1080p VPbPr to whatever
the DVD player put out.

Note that I have established that, with 480p, the TV does get an image
when using a straight-through HDMI-to-VGA-to-Component Video setup,
which delivers the 480p YPbPr signal to the TV with cables it can work
with. Unfortunately, that image is doubled horizontally, which can
work for using an on-screen menu but not for an actual program.

Also, for a convertor to work at all, it has to identify itself as
something whatever it is connected to finds acceptable. With a
computer, this means that it has to produce a "Monitor" in Device
Manager. Plug & Pray, IOW, is required. If there is no ID, the device
does not exist so far as the computer or BD Player is concerned.

[1] 20 years or so ago, in one of their first reports on HDTVs,
/Consumer Reports/ noted this problem. They stated that 240 cps was
needed to make it acceptable -- true 240 cps, not the "virtual" 240
cps some manufacturers were trying to pass 120 cps off as. But they
/also/ noted that the Golden Standard for no blurring was the NTSC CRT
TV they had lying about the lab (presumably because nobody had cleared
such clearly antiquated technology out yet).
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Paul S Person
2021-09-29 15:58:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:37:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Paul S Person
I may have stopped obsessing about file sizes, but that doesn't mean
I'm used to measuring memory in terabytes!
Well, the size of a hard disk is usually in terabytes. RAM is still in
gigabytes on all but very large servers.
For users, I suspect, only in the last decade or so.
And my experience suggests that 2TB will do users for a long. long
time.
I don't actually own a lot of digital movies, but I bet a /lot/ of
them would fit just fine on a 2TB external drive.
Ack around 1993, I was working at MITRE. One day an email was
sent around from the IT department to the effect they had filled
enough racks with HDs to amount to 2Tb of storage, and groups
were invited to submit proposals for projects which could benefit
from such an astronomical data store.
Today, that would fit in the palm of my hand, and cost under $200.
Heck, in 2014 a 2TB My Passport Ultra external portable HD cost
$153.28 including tax.

OK, it uses a USB 3.0 cable to connect to its host.

For a movie library, I would probably want something more like a
network-connected device, so I could stream the film directly to the
player (or the TV -- speaking theoretically, as my current TV is far
too old for such things). That might pump the price up a bit.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
pete...@gmail.com
2021-09-29 17:07:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:37:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Paul S Person
I may have stopped obsessing about file sizes, but that doesn't mean
I'm used to measuring memory in terabytes!
Well, the size of a hard disk is usually in terabytes. RAM is still in
gigabytes on all but very large servers.
For users, I suspect, only in the last decade or so.
And my experience suggests that 2TB will do users for a long. long
time.
I don't actually own a lot of digital movies, but I bet a /lot/ of
them would fit just fine on a 2TB external drive.
Ack around 1993, I was working at MITRE. One day an email was
sent around from the IT department to the effect they had filled
enough racks with HDs to amount to 2Tb of storage, and groups
were invited to submit proposals for projects which could benefit
from such an astronomical data store.
Today, that would fit in the palm of my hand, and cost under $200.
Heck, in 2014 a 2TB My Passport Ultra external portable HD cost
$153.28 including tax.
OK, it uses a USB 3.0 cable to connect to its host.
For a movie library, I would probably want something more like a
network-connected device, so I could stream the film directly to the
player (or the TV -- speaking theoretically, as my current TV is far
too old for such things). That might pump the price up a bit.
I outsource that stuff to Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, etc.

pt
Paul S Person
2021-09-30 16:07:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:37:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Paul S Person
I may have stopped obsessing about file sizes, but that doesn't mean
I'm used to measuring memory in terabytes!
Well, the size of a hard disk is usually in terabytes. RAM is still in
gigabytes on all but very large servers.
For users, I suspect, only in the last decade or so.
And my experience suggests that 2TB will do users for a long. long
time.
I don't actually own a lot of digital movies, but I bet a /lot/ of
them would fit just fine on a 2TB external drive.
Ack around 1993, I was working at MITRE. One day an email was
sent around from the IT department to the effect they had filled
enough racks with HDs to amount to 2Tb of storage, and groups
were invited to submit proposals for projects which could benefit
from such an astronomical data store.
Today, that would fit in the palm of my hand, and cost under $200.
Heck, in 2014 a 2TB My Passport Ultra external portable HD cost
$153.28 including tax.
OK, it uses a USB 3.0 cable to connect to its host.
For a movie library, I would probably want something more like a
network-connected device, so I could stream the film directly to the
player (or the TV -- speaking theoretically, as my current TV is far
too old for such things). That might pump the price up a bit.
I outsource that stuff to Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, etc.
Which is fine -- as long as you are satisfied with watching the movies
/they/ want to show you.

This is a perpetual conflict -- between those who want to see /their/
movies or hear /their/ music vs those who want to see movies or hear
music chosen by somebody else.

BTW, do any of those allow you to see each and every Bond film
(including the original /Casino Royale/ and /Never Say Never Again/)
or do they only have some of them at any one time?

The advantage to owning is that what you want is /always/ available.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Robert Carnegie
2021-09-26 10:11:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Wolffan
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd
be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
This very strip is 5.4 MB. In 1980, on home equipment, it would take
something like ten hours to upload. In 1990, about 12 and a half
minutes. Today, of course, the time is humanly negligible.
it took literal hours to FTP down 6 to 9 MB files in the mid 1990s.
That would, of course, depend on the modem—but I see I was a little off
on the timeline. 57,600-bps home modems were nearer the turn of the
century than 1990. (I’m old enough to remember when speeds like that
could be achieved only by leasing eight lines to run in parallel, and
2000-bps dial-up modems were the size of a toaster oven.)
My recollection is that "56kbps" was a theoretical
data rate that only the best quality lines would get,
and only by eliminating the analogue stage at the
far end. And it was "only" the receive rate? Ah yes:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modem#56_kbit/s_technologies>

So I think I got around "40". (And is that 8 bits or
10 bits in a byte? I don't remember.)
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2021-09-26 17:30:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Wolffan
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
On Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 2:54:36 PM UTC-4, Lynn
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd
be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
This very strip is 5.4 MB. In 1980, on home equipment, it would take
something like ten hours to upload. In 1990, about 12 and a half
minutes. Today, of course, the time is humanly negligible.
it took literal hours to FTP down 6 to 9 MB files in the mid 1990s.
That would, of course, depend on the modem—but I see I was a little off
on the timeline. 57,600-bps home modems were nearer the turn of the
century than 1990. (I’m old enough to remember when speeds like that
could be achieved only by leasing eight lines to run in parallel, and
2000-bps dial-up modems were the size of a toaster oven.)
My recollection is that "56kbps" was a theoretical
data rate that only the best quality lines would get,
and only by eliminating the analogue stage at the
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modem#56_kbit/s_technologies>
So I think I got around "40". (And is that 8 bits or
10 bits in a byte? I don't remember.)
It depends. Are you on a C/70?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Paul S Person
2021-09-27 15:34:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 03:11:04 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Wolffan
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd
be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
This very strip is 5.4 MB. In 1980, on home equipment, it would take
something like ten hours to upload. In 1990, about 12 and a half
minutes. Today, of course, the time is humanly negligible.
it took literal hours to FTP down 6 to 9 MB files in the mid 1990s.
That would, of course, depend on the modem—but I see I was a little off
on the timeline. 57,600-bps home modems were nearer the turn of the
century than 1990. (I’m old enough to remember when speeds like that
could be achieved only by leasing eight lines to run in parallel, and
2000-bps dial-up modems were the size of a toaster oven.)
My recollection is that "56kbps" was a theoretical
data rate that only the best quality lines would get,
and only by eliminating the analogue stage at the
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modem#56_kbit/s_technologies>
So I think I got around "40". (And is that 8 bits or
10 bits in a byte? I don't remember.)
Depends, among other things, on how the error correction works.

Anybody remember when some modems /dropped the 8th bit/ because "it
was always 0"? You had to be /very/ careful in transferring binary
files. Including WordStar (remember WordStar?) files, which uses the
8th bit for markup.

Of course, then they developed the concept of "data type", allowing
you to specify whether you wanted the 8th bit actually transferred or
not (among, no doubt, other things).
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Gary R. Schmidt
2021-09-28 03:31:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 03:11:04 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Wolffan
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd
be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
This very strip is 5.4 MB. In 1980, on home equipment, it would take
something like ten hours to upload. In 1990, about 12 and a half
minutes. Today, of course, the time is humanly negligible.
it took literal hours to FTP down 6 to 9 MB files in the mid 1990s.
That would, of course, depend on the modem—but I see I was a little off
on the timeline. 57,600-bps home modems were nearer the turn of the
century than 1990. (I’m old enough to remember when speeds like that
could be achieved only by leasing eight lines to run in parallel, and
2000-bps dial-up modems were the size of a toaster oven.)
My recollection is that "56kbps" was a theoretical
data rate that only the best quality lines would get,
and only by eliminating the analogue stage at the
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modem#56_kbit/s_technologies>
So I think I got around "40". (And is that 8 bits or
10 bits in a byte? I don't remember.)
Depends, among other things, on how the error correction works.
Anybody remember when some modems /dropped the 8th bit/ because "it
was always 0"? You had to be /very/ careful in transferring binary
files. Including WordStar (remember WordStar?) files, which uses the
8th bit for markup.
Of course, then they developed the concept of "data type", allowing
you to specify whether you wanted the 8th bit actually transferred or
not (among, no doubt, other things).
No, that wasn't in the modem, that was in the software used to transfer
files, which allowed you to pack 9 bytes into one octet, so it was that
little bit faster to transfer, but, of course, only accurate if the file
was 7-bit ASCII.

Cheers,
Gary B-)
Paul S Person
2021-09-28 15:39:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 28 Sep 2021 13:31:06 +1000, "Gary R. Schmidt"
Post by Gary R. Schmidt
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 03:11:04 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Wolffan
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd
be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
This very strip is 5.4 MB. In 1980, on home equipment, it would take
something like ten hours to upload. In 1990, about 12 and a half
minutes. Today, of course, the time is humanly negligible.
it took literal hours to FTP down 6 to 9 MB files in the mid 1990s.
That would, of course, depend on the modem—but I see I was a little off
on the timeline. 57,600-bps home modems were nearer the turn of the
century than 1990. (I’m old enough to remember when speeds like that
could be achieved only by leasing eight lines to run in parallel, and
2000-bps dial-up modems were the size of a toaster oven.)
My recollection is that "56kbps" was a theoretical
data rate that only the best quality lines would get,
and only by eliminating the analogue stage at the
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modem#56_kbit/s_technologies>
So I think I got around "40". (And is that 8 bits or
10 bits in a byte? I don't remember.)
Depends, among other things, on how the error correction works.
Anybody remember when some modems /dropped the 8th bit/ because "it
was always 0"? You had to be /very/ careful in transferring binary
files. Including WordStar (remember WordStar?) files, which uses the
8th bit for markup.
Of course, then they developed the concept of "data type", allowing
you to specify whether you wanted the 8th bit actually transferred or
not (among, no doubt, other things).
No, that wasn't in the modem, that was in the software used to transfer
files, which allowed you to pack 9 bytes into one octet, so it was that
little bit faster to transfer, but, of course, only accurate if the file
was 7-bit ASCII.
Depending, I would suspect, on what bells and whistles a given modem
had.

But you are basically correct -- the modem at its most basic just
tranmitted/received the bits.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Lynn McGuire
2021-09-29 20:49:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Wolffan
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
This very strip is 5.4 MB. In 1980, on home equipment, it would take
something like ten hours to upload. In 1990, about 12 and a half
minutes. Today, of course, the time is humanly negligible.
it took literal hours to FTP down 6 to 9 MB files in the mid 1990s.
That would, of course, depend on the modem—but I see I was a little off
on the timeline. 57,600-bps home modems were nearer the turn of the
century than 1990. (I’m old enough to remember when speeds like that
could be achieved only by leasing eight lines to run in parallel, and
2000-bps dial-up modems were the size of a toaster oven.)
Dad had an eight line 4,800 baud (bps) modem in 1975 when UCC
(University Computing Company) moved their Univac 1108 from Houston to
Dallas (we were in Houston). Our terminal had an integrated card reader
(no card punch) and a 100 line per minute printer. No teletype or tape
drive though (IIRC). It looked like something straight out of Star Trek.

Lynn
The Horny Goat
2021-09-29 23:57:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:49:25 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dad had an eight line 4,800 baud (bps) modem in 1975 when UCC
(University Computing Company) moved their Univac 1108 from Houston to
Dallas (we were in Houston). Our terminal had an integrated card reader
(no card punch) and a 100 line per minute printer. No teletype or tape
drive though (IIRC). It looked like something straight out of Star Trek.
And then there was that FORTRAN StarTrek program I wasted hours and
hours on to the extent that the guy in the data center decided he
should gift me a printed source listing (it was about 1" thick) - not
even a tape or ticker tape version (which were used at the time for
transmitting source code - we're talking late 1970s here)

Am still trying to figure out what he was thinking of though I did
improve my FORTRAN skills by reading the code which at that time I
thought was quite well written.

I remember being SO impressed with how they implemented the Tholian
web.....
Scott Lurndal
2021-09-30 14:41:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
That would, of course, depend on the modem—but I see I was a little off
on the timeline. 57,600-bps home modems were nearer the turn of the
century than 1990. (I’m old enough to remember when speeds like that
could be achieved only by leasing eight lines to run in parallel, and
2000-bps dial-up modems were the size of a toaster oven.)
Dad had an eight line 4,800 baud (bps) modem in 1975 when UCC
(University Computing Company) moved their Univac 1108 from Houston to
Dallas (we were in Houston). Our terminal had an integrated card reader
(no card punch) and a 100 line per minute printer. No teletype or tape
drive though (IIRC). It looked like something straight out of Star Trek.
That device is typically referred to as a 'Remote Job Entry' (RJE) station;
not a terminal; an RJE station would multiplex the card reader and
line printer (and optionally an operator station)traffic over a single bisynchronous
data communications line.

An eight-line 4800 baud modem in 1975 seems a bit early (and would be
quite expensive, and only a single line would be required for the RJE
station).
Quadibloc
2021-09-30 15:56:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
An eight-line 4800 baud modem in 1975 seems a bit early (and would be
quite expensive, and only a single line would be required for the RJE
station).
Maybe what is meant is eight phone lines, each with a 600-baud modem
on it, in order to obtain the total capacity of 4,800 baud which an RJE
station would require?

That would satisfy both the "early" and "excessive" objections.

John Savard
Robert Carnegie
2021-09-30 16:20:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Scott Lurndal
An eight-line 4800 baud modem in 1975 seems a bit early (and would be
quite expensive, and only a single line would be required for the RJE
station).
Maybe what is meant is eight phone lines, each with a 600-baud modem
on it, in order to obtain the total capacity of 4,800 baud which an RJE
station would require?
That would satisfy both the "early" and "excessive" objections.
There remains the quibble that "baud" is not
strictly equivalent to "bits per second".
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baud>

For instance, if I play one keyboard note per second,
one white key in the range low C to high C, that's
1 baud but 3 bits per second, because one note
encodes three bits.

I think Lynn is claiming one modem using 8 phone
lines: I never heard of that but I would assume that
signals go down each line simultaneously, which
makes it one signal on eight lines.
John W Kennedy
2021-09-30 19:45:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by John W Kennedy
That would, of course, depend on the modem—but I see I was a little off
on the timeline. 57,600-bps home modems were nearer the turn of the
century than 1990. (I’m old enough to remember when speeds like that
could be achieved only by leasing eight lines to run in parallel, and
2000-bps dial-up modems were the size of a toaster oven.)
Dad had an eight line 4,800 baud (bps) modem in 1975 when UCC
(University Computing Company) moved their Univac 1108 from Houston to
Dallas (we were in Houston). Our terminal had an integrated card reader
(no card punch) and a 100 line per minute printer. No teletype or tape
drive though (IIRC). It looked like something straight out of Star Trek.
That device is typically referred to as a 'Remote Job Entry' (RJE) station;
not a terminal; an RJE station would multiplex the card reader and
line printer (and optionally an operator station)traffic over a single bisynchronous
data communications line.
An eight-line 4800 baud modem in 1975 seems a bit early (and would be
quite expensive, and only a single line would be required for the RJE
station).
You could get as much as 57,600 over eight lines by the late 60s (and we
called it “broadband”). But such speeds were normally used only for
computer-to-computer links. What with space compression, other forms of
compression, and six-bit codes without lower case, RJE stations
generally needed only 9600 to keep running at capacity.
--
John W. Kennedy
Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!
Lynn McGuire
2021-10-01 02:38:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by John W Kennedy
That would, of course, depend on the modem—but I see I was a little off
on the timeline. 57,600-bps home modems were nearer the turn of the
century than 1990. (I’m old enough to remember when speeds like that
could be achieved only by leasing eight lines to run in parallel, and
2000-bps dial-up modems were the size of a toaster oven.)
Dad had an eight line 4,800 baud (bps) modem in 1975 when UCC
(University Computing Company) moved their Univac 1108 from Houston to
Dallas (we were in Houston). Our terminal had an integrated card reader
(no card punch) and a 100 line per minute printer. No teletype or tape
drive though (IIRC). It looked like something straight out of Star Trek.
That device is typically referred to as a 'Remote Job Entry' (RJE) station;
not a terminal; an RJE station would multiplex the card reader and
line printer (and optionally an operator station)traffic over a single bisynchronous
data communications line.
An eight-line 4800 baud modem in 1975 seems a bit early (and would be
quite expensive, and only a single line would be required for the RJE
station).
Thanks for the RJE nomenclature. I wish I could find a picture of the
device, it was impressive. I have no idea if it was made by Univac or not.

The 4800 baud modem was the size of a dorm refrigerator and weighed
about 80 lbs or so. It was connected to eight leased phone lines
between Houston and Dallas. We never turned it on/off, it was always
connected.

Lynn
Quadibloc
2021-10-01 07:11:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dad had an eight line 4,800 baud (bps) modem in 1975 when UCC
(University Computing Company) moved their Univac 1108 from Houston to
Dallas (we were in Houston). Our terminal had an integrated card reader
(no card punch) and a 100 line per minute printer. No teletype or tape
drive though (IIRC). It looked like something straight out of Star Trek.
Thanks for the RJE nomenclature. I wish I could find a picture of the
device, it was impressive. I have no idea if it was made by Univac or not.
I made an attempt to find an image of an RJE terminal made by Univac,
so that I could post a link, and you could say if it resembled what yo
remembered.

If it looked like "something straight out of Star Trek", then it is likely to
have been made by Univac, as the styling of their computer peripherals
was often quite futuristic-looking. One distinctive thing is that their
keyboards often had keys that had a white top with black printing on
a key that was black - the keys being spaced apart, going vertically
from their tops, instead of flaring out from the tops like common
typewriter keys, the way IBM did it.

John Savard
Lynn McGuire
2021-10-01 19:24:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dad had an eight line 4,800 baud (bps) modem in 1975 when UCC
(University Computing Company) moved their Univac 1108 from Houston to
Dallas (we were in Houston). Our terminal had an integrated card reader
(no card punch) and a 100 line per minute printer. No teletype or tape
drive though (IIRC). It looked like something straight out of Star Trek.
Thanks for the RJE nomenclature. I wish I could find a picture of the
device, it was impressive. I have no idea if it was made by Univac or not.
I made an attempt to find an image of an RJE terminal made by Univac,
so that I could post a link, and you could say if it resembled what yo
remembered.
If it looked like "something straight out of Star Trek", then it is likely to
have been made by Univac, as the styling of their computer peripherals
was often quite futuristic-looking. One distinctive thing is that their
keyboards often had keys that had a white top with black printing on
a key that was black - the keys being spaced apart, going vertically
from their tops, instead of flaring out from the tops like common
typewriter keys, the way IBM did it.
John Savard
You would think that a marketing brochure would have survived.

I need to ask Dad where he got the RJE terminal from. Probably UCC gave
it to us, we and our customers were their number one customer from 1975
? to 1979 or 1980. Dad bought a Prime 450 in 1978 ? with six user
terminals and our UCC usage dropped significantly. But our customers
used UCC for quite a while into the 1980s. Also UCS and another
mainframe time sharing service that I cannot remember.

Lynn
Scott Lurndal
2021-10-01 19:37:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dad had an eight line 4,800 baud (bps) modem in 1975 when UCC
(University Computing Company) moved their Univac 1108 from Houston to
Dallas (we were in Houston). Our terminal had an integrated card reader
(no card punch) and a 100 line per minute printer. No teletype or tape
drive though (IIRC). It looked like something straight out of Star Trek.
Thanks for the RJE nomenclature. I wish I could find a picture of the
device, it was impressive. I have no idea if it was made by Univac or not.
I made an attempt to find an image of an RJE terminal made by Univac,
so that I could post a link, and you could say if it resembled what yo
remembered.
If it looked like "something straight out of Star Trek", then it is likely to
have been made by Univac, as the styling of their computer peripherals
was often quite futuristic-looking. One distinctive thing is that their
keyboards often had keys that had a white top with black printing on
a key that was black - the keys being spaced apart, going vertically
from their tops, instead of flaring out from the tops like common
typewriter keys, the way IBM did it.
John Savard
You would think that a marketing brochure would have survived.
I need to ask Dad where he got the RJE terminal from. Probably UCC gave
I suspect it was one of these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDS_2400
Scott Lurndal
2021-10-01 19:38:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dad had an eight line 4,800 baud (bps) modem in 1975 when UCC
(University Computing Company) moved their Univac 1108 from Houston to
Dallas (we were in Houston). Our terminal had an integrated card reader
(no card punch) and a 100 line per minute printer. No teletype or tape
drive though (IIRC). It looked like something straight out of Star Trek.
Thanks for the RJE nomenclature. I wish I could find a picture of the
device, it was impressive. I have no idea if it was made by Univac or not.
I made an attempt to find an image of an RJE terminal made by Univac,
so that I could post a link, and you could say if it resembled what yo
remembered.
If it looked like "something straight out of Star Trek", then it is likely to
have been made by Univac, as the styling of their computer peripherals
was often quite futuristic-looking. One distinctive thing is that their
keyboards often had keys that had a white top with black printing on
a key that was black - the keys being spaced apart, going vertically
from their tops, instead of flaring out from the tops like common
typewriter keys, the way IBM did it.
John Savard
You would think that a marketing brochure would have survived.
I need to ask Dad where he got the RJE terminal from. Probably UCC gave
Pictures here: http://s3data.computerhistory.org/brochures/mds.2400.1975.102646172.pdf
Lynn McGuire
2021-10-01 19:48:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dad had an eight line 4,800 baud (bps) modem in 1975 when UCC
(University Computing Company) moved their Univac 1108 from Houston to
Dallas (we were in Houston). Our terminal had an integrated card reader
(no card punch) and a 100 line per minute printer. No teletype or tape
drive though (IIRC). It looked like something straight out of Star Trek.
Thanks for the RJE nomenclature. I wish I could find a picture of the
device, it was impressive. I have no idea if it was made by Univac or not.
I made an attempt to find an image of an RJE terminal made by Univac,
so that I could post a link, and you could say if it resembled what yo
remembered.
If it looked like "something straight out of Star Trek", then it is likely to
have been made by Univac, as the styling of their computer peripherals
was often quite futuristic-looking. One distinctive thing is that their
keyboards often had keys that had a white top with black printing on
a key that was black - the keys being spaced apart, going vertically
from their tops, instead of flaring out from the tops like common
typewriter keys, the way IBM did it.
John Savard
You would think that a marketing brochure would have survived.
I need to ask Dad where he got the RJE terminal from. Probably UCC gave
Pictures here: http://s3data.computerhistory.org/brochures/mds.2400.1975.102646172.pdf
Nope. It was a big integrated box, four foot wide by four foot deep,
over four feet tall. It was yellow or orange panels with chrome
strips. There was a card reader on one side and a line printer on the
other side. I cannot remember if there was an operator console but I
would not be surprised if there was one. No card punch or tape
drive(s). We would have loved to had a tape drive, I had to jump on
Southwest Airlines a few times to retrieve tapes we made in Dallas to
hand walk to customers.

Lynn
Scott Lurndal
2021-10-01 19:59:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Scott Lurndal
Pictures here: http://s3data.computerhistory.org/brochures/mds.2400.1975.102646172.pdf
Nope. It was a big integrated box, four foot wide by four foot deep,
over four feet tall. It was yellow or orange panels with chrome
strips.
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/univac/terminals/brochures/S6800R2_UTS_4020_Brochure_Apr83.pdf
Lynn McGuire
2021-10-01 20:23:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Scott Lurndal
Pictures here: http://s3data.computerhistory.org/brochures/mds.2400.1975.102646172.pdf
Nope. It was a big integrated box, four foot wide by four foot deep,
over four feet tall. It was yellow or orange panels with chrome
strips.
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/univac/terminals/brochures/S6800R2_UTS_4020_Brochure_Apr83.pdf
Sorry, nope. It had chrome legs with several wheels. Right out of Star
Trek.

Lynn
Gary R. Schmidt
2021-10-02 02:47:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dad had an eight line 4,800 baud (bps) modem in 1975 when UCC
(University Computing Company) moved their Univac 1108 from Houston to
Dallas (we were in Houston). Our terminal had an integrated card reader
(no card punch) and a 100 line per minute printer. No teletype or tape
drive though (IIRC). It looked like something straight out of Star Trek.
Thanks for the RJE nomenclature. I wish I could find a picture of the
device, it was impressive. I have no idea if it was made by Univac or not.
I made an attempt to find an image of an RJE terminal made by Univac,
so that I could post a link, and you could say if it resembled what yo
remembered.
If it looked like "something straight out of Star Trek", then it is likely to
have been made by Univac, as the styling of their computer peripherals
was often quite futuristic-looking. One distinctive thing is that their
keyboards often had keys that had a white top with black printing on
a key that was black - the keys being spaced apart, going vertically
from their tops, instead of flaring out from the tops like common
typewriter keys, the way IBM did it.
John Savard
You would think that a marketing brochure would have survived.
I need to ask Dad where he got the RJE terminal from. Probably UCC gave
Pictures here: http://s3data.computerhistory.org/brochures/mds.2400.1975.102646172.pdf
Ah, the good old days, when data centres where staffed by attractive
young women in short skirts!*

* - For the <insert as appropriate> impaired, that never happened, but
before /computers/ most /computors/[1] were women.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

1 - And my dictionary has flagged this. Sigh.
Paul S Person
2021-10-02 15:36:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 2 Oct 2021 12:47:38 +1000, "Gary R. Schmidt"
Post by Gary R. Schmidt
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dad had an eight line 4,800 baud (bps) modem in 1975 when UCC
(University Computing Company) moved their Univac 1108 from Houston to
Dallas (we were in Houston). Our terminal had an integrated card reader
(no card punch) and a 100 line per minute printer. No teletype or tape
drive though (IIRC). It looked like something straight out of Star Trek.
Thanks for the RJE nomenclature. I wish I could find a picture of the
device, it was impressive. I have no idea if it was made by Univac or not.
I made an attempt to find an image of an RJE terminal made by Univac,
so that I could post a link, and you could say if it resembled what yo
remembered.
If it looked like "something straight out of Star Trek", then it is likely to
have been made by Univac, as the styling of their computer peripherals
was often quite futuristic-looking. One distinctive thing is that their
keyboards often had keys that had a white top with black printing on
a key that was black - the keys being spaced apart, going vertically
from their tops, instead of flaring out from the tops like common
typewriter keys, the way IBM did it.
John Savard
You would think that a marketing brochure would have survived.
I need to ask Dad where he got the RJE terminal from. Probably UCC gave
Pictures here: http://s3data.computerhistory.org/brochures/mds.2400.1975.102646172.pdf
Ah, the good old days, when data centres where staffed by attractive
young women in short skirts!*
* - For the <insert as appropriate> impaired, that never happened, but
before /computers/ most /computors/[1] were women.
1 - And my dictionary has flagged this. Sigh.
My mid-70s Webster has "computor" as an alternate spelling of
"computer".

So the distinction did exist, apparently, at one time.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
John W Kennedy
2021-09-30 19:30:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Wolffan
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ross Presser
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
I think if he'd randomized the order instead of just reversing, it'd
be funnier.
The premise sounds false, just in there to set up the joke.
I can't imagine that a full comic strip actually taxes a modern upload.
Berkeley Breathed used to hire a charter jet to send his weeks worth of
inked Bloom County strips from Austin, TX to New York City on Saturday
night for the Sunday newspapers from 1980 to 1989.
This very strip is 5.4 MB. In 1980, on home equipment, it would take
something like ten hours to upload. In 1990, about 12 and a half
minutes. Today, of course, the time is humanly negligible.
it took literal hours to FTP down 6 to 9 MB files in the mid 1990s.
That would, of course, depend on the modem—but I see I was a little
off on the timeline. 57,600-bps home modems were nearer the turn of
the century than 1990. (I’m old enough to remember when speeds like
that could be achieved only by leasing eight lines to run in parallel,
and 2000-bps dial-up modems were the size of a toaster oven.)
Dad had an eight line 4,800 baud (bps) modem in 1975 when UCC
(University Computing Company) moved their Univac 1108 from Houston to
Dallas (we were in Houston).  Our terminal had an integrated card reader
(no card punch) and a 100 line per minute printer.  No teletype or tape
drive though (IIRC).  It looked like something straight out of Star Trek.
Technically, “baud” doesn’t translate into bps. “Baud” is the number of
boops and beeps per second. If, for example, there is a set of four
possible signals (boop, bop, bip, beep), then 100 baud carries 200 bps.

Not that people didn’t used to make the mistake all the time, including
yours truly.
--
John W. Kennedy
Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!
Michael Trew
2021-09-24 21:31:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Pearls Before Swine: Strip Layout
https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2021/09/23
What could go wrong ?
Lynn
Ah, thanks, first comment.. the strip is backwards.
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