Discussion:
"It's an asteroid! No, it's the new smallest dwarf planet in our solar system"
(too old to reply)
Lynn McGuire
2019-10-30 19:40:27 UTC
Permalink
"It's an asteroid! No, it's the new smallest dwarf planet in our solar
system"
https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/sci-tech/2019/10/29/1_4660083.amp.html

"A large asteroid could be reclassified as a dwarf planet -- which could
make it the smallest in the solar system -- after new research revealed
its shape, astronomers said on Monday."

"Nestled in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter is an object that
may have been overlooked. They believe the asteroid Hygiea should
actually be classified as a dwarf planet."

Here we go again.

Lynn
Juho Julkunen
2019-10-30 23:16:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
"It's an asteroid! No, it's the new smallest dwarf planet in our solar
system"
https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/sci-tech/2019/10/29/1_4660083.amp.html
"A large asteroid could be reclassified as a dwarf planet -- which could
make it the smallest in the solar system -- after new research revealed
its shape, astronomers said on Monday."
"Nestled in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter is an object that
may have been overlooked. They believe the asteroid Hygiea should
actually be classified as a dwarf planet."
Here we go again.
Justice for Hygiea, the poor thing was demoted from a planet soon after
it was discovered.
--
Juho Julkunen
Kevrob
2019-10-31 02:55:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by Lynn McGuire
"It's an asteroid! No, it's the new smallest dwarf planet in our solar
system"
https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/sci-tech/2019/10/29/1_4660083.amp.html
"A large asteroid could be reclassified as a dwarf planet -- which could
make it the smallest in the solar system -- after new research revealed
its shape, astronomers said on Monday."
"Nestled in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter is an object that
may have been overlooked. They believe the asteroid Hygiea should
actually be classified as a dwarf planet."
Here we go again.
Justice for Hygiea, the poor thing was demoted from a planet soon after
it was discovered.
"That's no dwarf planet..."

The idea that an asteroid or dwarf planet is secretly a
ship or station has been around for a while.

Kevin R
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-10-31 03:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by Lynn McGuire
"It's an asteroid! No, it's the new smallest dwarf planet in our solar
system"
https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/sci-tech/2019/10/29/1_4660083.amp.html
"A large asteroid could be reclassified as a dwarf planet -- which could
make it the smallest in the solar system -- after new research revealed
its shape, astronomers said on Monday."
"Nestled in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter is an object that
may have been overlooked. They believe the asteroid Hygiea should
actually be classified as a dwarf planet."
Here we go again.
Justice for Hygiea, the poor thing was demoted from a planet soon after
it was discovered.
"That's no dwarf planet..."
"Put down the pliers!"
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Kevrob
2019-10-31 03:37:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Kevrob
"That's no dwarf planet..."
"Put down the pliers!"
--
Not enough gravity to crush anybody.

Now, if you'll excuse me, the Martian Space
Party is needed in another thread,

Kevin R (Not insane!)
Dan Tilque
2019-11-02 19:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
The idea that an asteroid or dwarf planet is secretly a
ship or station has been around for a while.
And it's such a common trope that 'Oumuamua was claimed to be a alien
ship almost as soon as it was discovered. Well, not by the discoverers,
but by all kinds of people as soon as the word was out.

As far as dwarf planets go, note that the IAU, who invented the
category, has not named any more of them since the first five. Despite
there being many candidates. I don't know much more about what happens
at the IAU than the next person, but my guess is that they don't have
anyone assigned to do it. And it's likely that most people working there
don't care about the class. Personally, I think they should just abolish
it; it has absolutely no scientific utility.
--
Dan Tilque
Dimensional Traveler
2019-11-02 20:52:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Tilque
Post by Kevrob
The idea that an asteroid or dwarf planet is secretly a
ship or station has been around for a while.
And it's such a common trope that 'Oumuamua was claimed to be a alien
ship almost as soon as it was discovered. Well, not by the discoverers,
but by all kinds of people as soon as the word was out.
As far as dwarf planets go, note that the IAU, who invented the
category, has not named any more of them since the first five. Despite
there being many candidates. I don't know much more about what happens
at the IAU than the next person, but my guess is that they don't have
anyone assigned to do it. And it's likely that most people working there
don't care about the class. Personally, I think they should just abolish
it; it has absolutely no scientific utility.
Its utility is to prevent school children from having learn the names of
hundreds of "planets" instead of just eight, since there are hundreds of
bodies the size of Pluto or larger in the Kuiper Belt. :P
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
Chrysi Cat
2019-11-03 07:54:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dan Tilque
Post by Kevrob
The idea that an asteroid or dwarf planet is secretly a
ship or station has been around for a while.
And it's such a common trope that 'Oumuamua was claimed to be a alien
ship almost as soon as it was discovered. Well, not by the
discoverers, but by all kinds of people as soon as the word was out.
As far as dwarf planets go, note that the IAU, who invented the
category, has not named any more of them since the first five. Despite
there being many candidates. I don't know much more about what happens
at the IAU than the next person, but my guess is that they don't have
anyone assigned to do it. And it's likely that most people working
there don't care about the class. Personally, I think they should just
abolish it; it has absolutely no scientific utility.
Its utility is to prevent school children from having learn the names of
hundreds of "planets" instead of just eight, since there are hundreds of
bodies the size of Pluto or larger in the Kuiper Belt.  :P
Unless I'm _really_ mistaken?

His point is that when we de-plaentified Pluto it should have gone all
the way and it should be no more than just another KBO, with the "dwarf
planet" classification not existing, but just an admission that Tombaugh
found something that should never have had anything more than an
alphanumeric designation.

I'm not sure which way I feel on that, but it seemed pretty clear by the
way he was not _condemning_ the lack of progress on actual names for
dwarf planets.
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Dan Tilque
2019-11-03 08:36:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dan Tilque
As far as dwarf planets go, note that the IAU, who invented the
category, has not named any more of them since the first five.
Despite there being many candidates. I don't know much more about
what happens at the IAU than the next person, but my guess is that
they don't have anyone assigned to do it. And it's likely that most
people working there don't care about the class. Personally, I think
they should just abolish it; it has absolutely no scientific utility.
Its utility is to prevent school children from having learn the names
of hundreds of "planets" instead of just eight, since there are
hundreds of bodies the size of Pluto or larger in the Kuiper Belt.  :P
So far only one and it's unlikely there'll be many more. But eventually
someone will discover the real Planet Nine. It's out there waiting ....
Post by Chrysi Cat
Unless I'm _really_ mistaken?
His point is that when we de-plaentified Pluto it should have gone all
the way and it should be no more than just another KBO, with the "dwarf
planet" classification not existing, but just an admission that Tombaugh
found something that should never have had anything more than an
alphanumeric designation.
Yes, pretty much. The dwarf planet thing was an attempt by the
Plutonistas to sneak it into planethood by the back door. It failed, but
we're stuck with this mongrel category that is totally useless.
Post by Chrysi Cat
I'm not sure which way I feel on that, but it seemed pretty clear by the
way he was not _condemning_ the lack of progress on actual names for
dwarf planets.
Well, actually what I wasn't condemning was the lack of additions to the
dwarf planet list.

As far as their names, there's always Bashful, Sleepy, Dopey, ... but
all we have is Goofy.
--
Dan Tilque
Dimensional Traveler
2019-11-03 18:59:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Tilque
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dan Tilque
As far as dwarf planets go, note that the IAU, who invented the
category, has not named any more of them since the first five.
Despite there being many candidates. I don't know much more about
what happens at the IAU than the next person, but my guess is that
they don't have anyone assigned to do it. And it's likely that most
people working there don't care about the class. Personally, I think
they should just abolish it; it has absolutely no scientific utility.
Its utility is to prevent school children from having learn the names
of hundreds of "planets" instead of just eight, since there are
hundreds of bodies the size of Pluto or larger in the Kuiper Belt.  :P
So far only one and it's unlikely there'll be many more. But eventually
someone will discover the real Planet Nine. It's out there waiting ....
Pluto, Ceres, Haumea, Makemake, Eris, Sedna, Quaoar. So far.
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
Lynn McGuire
2019-11-03 19:48:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Tilque
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dan Tilque
As far as dwarf planets go, note that the IAU, who invented the
category, has not named any more of them since the first five.
Despite there being many candidates. I don't know much more about
what happens at the IAU than the next person, but my guess is that
they don't have anyone assigned to do it. And it's likely that most
people working there don't care about the class. Personally, I
think they should just abolish it; it has absolutely no scientific
utility.
Its utility is to prevent school children from having learn the
names of hundreds of "planets" instead of just eight, since there
are hundreds of bodies the size of Pluto or larger in the Kuiper
Belt.  :P
So far only one and it's unlikely there'll be many more. But
eventually someone will discover the real Planet Nine. It's out there
waiting ....
Pluto, Ceres, Haumea, Makemake, Eris, Sedna, Quaoar.  So far.
I just read about Aliens inhabiting MakeMake in a book. I thought it
was a joke.

Lynn
J. Clarke
2019-11-03 20:01:08 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 13:48:13 -0600, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dan Tilque
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dan Tilque
As far as dwarf planets go, note that the IAU, who invented the
category, has not named any more of them since the first five.
Despite there being many candidates. I don't know much more about
what happens at the IAU than the next person, but my guess is that
they don't have anyone assigned to do it. And it's likely that most
people working there don't care about the class. Personally, I
think they should just abolish it; it has absolutely no scientific
utility.
Its utility is to prevent school children from having learn the
names of hundreds of "planets" instead of just eight, since there
are hundreds of bodies the size of Pluto or larger in the Kuiper
Belt.  :P
So far only one and it's unlikely there'll be many more. But
eventually someone will discover the real Planet Nine. It's out there
waiting ....
Pluto, Ceres, Haumea, Makemake, Eris, Sedna, Quaoar.  So far.
I just read about Aliens inhabiting MakeMake in a book. I thought it
was a joke.
Not MakeMake, Makemake--with short "a"s and long "e"s. Polynesian
pronunciation. God on Easter Island.
Dan Tilque
2019-11-03 20:14:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Tilque
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Its utility is to prevent school children from having learn the
names of hundreds of "planets" instead of just eight, since there
are hundreds of bodies the size of Pluto or larger in the Kuiper
Belt.  :P
So far only one and it's unlikely there'll be many more. But
eventually someone will discover the real Planet Nine. It's out there
waiting ....
Pluto, Ceres, Haumea, Makemake, Eris, Sedna, Quaoar.  So far.
Your wording was "the size of Pluto or larger". Eris is about the same
size as Pluto (slightly smaller but more massive) but the rest of those
are significantly smaller than Pluto. As are all the other known Kuiper
Belt objects.

At any rate, the real Planet Nine is currently thought to be about five
times as massive as Earth. Once that's discovered, everyone is going to
forget about that has been Pluto....
--
Dan Tilque
Dimensional Traveler
2019-11-04 00:11:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Tilque
Post by Dan Tilque
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Its utility is to prevent school children from having learn the
names of hundreds of "planets" instead of just eight, since there
are hundreds of bodies the size of Pluto or larger in the Kuiper
Belt.  :P
So far only one and it's unlikely there'll be many more. But
eventually someone will discover the real Planet Nine. It's out there
waiting ....
Pluto, Ceres, Haumea, Makemake, Eris, Sedna, Quaoar.  So far.
Your wording was "the size of Pluto or larger". Eris is about the same
size as Pluto (slightly smaller but more massive) but the rest of those
are significantly smaller than Pluto. As are all the other known Kuiper
Belt objects.
At any rate, the real Planet Nine is currently thought to be about five
times as massive as Earth. Once that's discovered, everyone is going to
forget about that has been Pluto....
I should have said "around Pluto's size", my mistake. (Bad memory! No
dessert for you!) At any rate those are what come up in a quick search
for current dwarf planets in our star system.

As for 'Planet 9', last I heard it was ~10 Earth masses.
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
Paul S Person
2019-11-04 17:22:00 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:11:16 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dan Tilque
Post by Dan Tilque
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Its utility is to prevent school children from having learn the
names of hundreds of "planets" instead of just eight, since there
are hundreds of bodies the size of Pluto or larger in the Kuiper
Belt.  :P
So far only one and it's unlikely there'll be many more. But
eventually someone will discover the real Planet Nine. It's out there
waiting ....
Pluto, Ceres, Haumea, Makemake, Eris, Sedna, Quaoar.  So far.
Your wording was "the size of Pluto or larger". Eris is about the same
size as Pluto (slightly smaller but more massive) but the rest of those
are significantly smaller than Pluto. As are all the other known Kuiper
Belt objects.
At any rate, the real Planet Nine is currently thought to be about five
times as massive as Earth. Once that's discovered, everyone is going to
forget about that has been Pluto....
I should have said "around Pluto's size", my mistake. (Bad memory! No
dessert for you!) At any rate those are what come up in a quick search
for current dwarf planets in our star system.
As for 'Planet 9', last I heard it was ~10 Earth masses.
No doubt, but until it is /actually found/, we won't actually know,
will we?

And suppose it turns out to be ... something else. Something that can
produce the observed gravitational perturbations but not otherwise be
detectable.

Or we find it but those pesky perturbations, while diminished, still
persist. Another case of turtles all the way down?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dan Tilque
2019-11-04 19:04:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:11:16 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dan Tilque
Post by Dan Tilque
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Its utility is to prevent school children from having learn the
names of hundreds of "planets" instead of just eight, since there
are hundreds of bodies the size of Pluto or larger in the Kuiper
Belt.  :P
So far only one and it's unlikely there'll be many more. But
eventually someone will discover the real Planet Nine. It's out there
waiting ....
Pluto, Ceres, Haumea, Makemake, Eris, Sedna, Quaoar.  So far.
Your wording was "the size of Pluto or larger". Eris is about the same
size as Pluto (slightly smaller but more massive) but the rest of those
are significantly smaller than Pluto. As are all the other known Kuiper
Belt objects.
At any rate, the real Planet Nine is currently thought to be about five
times as massive as Earth. Once that's discovered, everyone is going to
forget about that has been Pluto....
I should have said "around Pluto's size", my mistake. (Bad memory! No
dessert for you!) At any rate those are what come up in a quick search
for current dwarf planets in our star system.
So far there doesn't seem to be a concensus of which ones qualify.
Apparently the IAU is leaving it up to concensus, so they're no help.
The only ones everyone agrees on are the original 5: Pluto, Eris,
Haumea, Makemake, and Ceres.
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dimensional Traveler
As for 'Planet 9', last I heard it was ~10 Earth masses.
The most recent prediction I've seen lowered that number to 5. Also
reduced the probable distance.

See here: http://www.findplanetnine.com

"Planet Nine is a factor of ~2 smaller in all quantities compared
to what we reported in the original paper. The new estimate of the
semi-major axis is a~400-500AU (could potentially be even smaller, but
only marginally so). P9’s orbital eccentricity is about e~0.15-0.3. The
inclination is around i~20 deg. Last but not least, the mass is about
m~5 Earth masses. Planet Nine is probably not a relative of Neptune —
it’s a Super-Earth. Now let’s dig into the details a bit."
Post by Paul S Person
And suppose it turns out to be ... something else. Something that can
produce the observed gravitational perturbations but not otherwise be
detectable.
Someone did recently propose it was a very small black hole. I'm not
sure if this is taken seriously by anyone else in the astronomical
community.
Post by Paul S Person
Or we find it but those pesky perturbations, while diminished, still
persist. Another case of turtles all the way down?
We'll burn that bridge when and if we come to it. But note that it isn't
perturbations that the prediction is based on but rather that a number
of orbits in the very far Solar System (beyond the Kuiper Belt) have
similarities that were probably caused by a large planet pushing these
smaller bodies around. So the equivalent is that we find a planet, but
it doesn't have sufficient mass to do this pushing around. Which might
point to there being another planet, perhaps in a resonant orbit with P9
so they can more or less share the same distance from the Sun.
--
Dan Tilque
Paul S Person
2019-11-03 17:41:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dan Tilque
Post by Kevrob
The idea that an asteroid or dwarf planet is secretly a
ship or station has been around for a while.
And it's such a common trope that 'Oumuamua was claimed to be a alien
ship almost as soon as it was discovered. Well, not by the
discoverers, but by all kinds of people as soon as the word was out.
As far as dwarf planets go, note that the IAU, who invented the
category, has not named any more of them since the first five. Despite
there being many candidates. I don't know much more about what happens
at the IAU than the next person, but my guess is that they don't have
anyone assigned to do it. And it's likely that most people working
there don't care about the class. Personally, I think they should just
abolish it; it has absolutely no scientific utility.
Its utility is to prevent school children from having learn the names of
hundreds of "planets" instead of just eight, since there are hundreds of
bodies the size of Pluto or larger in the Kuiper Belt.  :P
Unless I'm _really_ mistaken?
His point is that when we de-plaentified Pluto it should have gone all
the way and it should be no more than just another KBO, with the "dwarf
planet" classification not existing, but just an admission that Tombaugh
found something that should never have had anything more than an
alphanumeric designation.
Myself, I would see "Pluto" as being alphanumeric, just not happening
to include any numbers. Are you sure the /real/ problem is that
"Pluto" is also a word? That is, if we re-named it "Xydd", would that
be alphanumeric enough for you?

OTOH, brief research suggests you may be correct.

Still, other than passwords, it seems strange to me to say that
alphanumeric data /must/ include both letters and numbers, as opposed
to saying that it /may/ include both.
Post by Chrysi Cat
I'm not sure which way I feel on that, but it seemed pretty clear by the
way he was not _condemning_ the lack of progress on actual names for
dwarf planets.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dan Tilque
2019-11-04 19:17:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Chrysi Cat
His point is that when we de-plaentified Pluto it should have gone all
the way and it should be no more than just another KBO, with the "dwarf
planet" classification not existing, but just an admission that Tombaugh
found something that should never have had anything more than an
alphanumeric designation.
Myself, I would see "Pluto" as being alphanumeric, just not happening
to include any numbers. Are you sure the /real/ problem is that
"Pluto" is also a word? That is, if we re-named it "Xydd", would that
be alphanumeric enough for you?
Pluto's current designation as a minor planet is 134340 Pluto. That
should be alphanumeric enough for anyone.

But I suspect what was meant was the temporary designation that minor
planets get before they get an official number and name. Eris, for
example was originally known as 2003 UB313 (where the 313 should be a
subscript). This designation is based on the year and day the object was
first imaged. That system of temporary designations didn't exist in 1930
when Pluto was discovered.
--
Dan Tilque
nuny@bid.nes
2019-11-13 10:00:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Tilque
Post by Kevrob
The idea that an asteroid or dwarf planet is secretly a
ship or station has been around for a while.
And it's such a common trope that 'Oumuamua was claimed to be a alien
ship almost as soon as it was discovered. Well, not by the discoverers,
but by all kinds of people as soon as the word was out.
Its extremely unusual shape and subsequent behavior (accelerating with no apparent outgassing or other physical reason) helped fuel that kind of thing.

The more recent interstellar visitor seems to be somewhat better behaved. So far.
Post by Dan Tilque
As far as dwarf planets go, note that the IAU, who invented the
category, has not named any more of them since the first five. Despite
there being many candidates. I don't know much more about what happens
at the IAU than the next person, but my guess is that they don't have
anyone assigned to do it. And it's likely that most people working there
don't care about the class. Personally, I think they should just abolish
it; it has absolutely no scientific utility.
I imagine we'll have to wait for another wave of exploratory craft to go out and spot (or bump into) some more to force them to come to some kind of decision.

Until then as is mentioned downthread, we have the discovery of the "real Planet Nine" (and its moons?) to look forward to.


Mark L. Fergerson

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