Discussion:
Sexy Space Babes by BlueFishCake
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David Johnston
2021-06-03 07:44:43 UTC
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Typically the HFY community on Reddit loves to portray humanity as
fantastically strong and fast by comparison with other intelligent
species but Sexy Space Babes goes another direction. You might think
the title refers to the huge number of humanoid females offering to have
sex with with the protagonist, but...

You see in a galaxy where every other species follows a one male per
multiple female ratio in true space Amazon tradition, humanity is unique
in our sexual parity meaning we have far, far more "attractive" males
than any other planet in known space. After all with such an imbalance
their standards of acceptability are lower, while men can afford to be a
bit picky while at the same time have to worry about the typically
larger females not allowing them that choice.

Human males are therefore far less shy about showing skin, far more
receptive to sexual overtures, far more ignorant of the ways things work
in interstellar civilization. In short, Earth has a reputation as the
planet of bimbos. When word started to spread that we were engaging in
resistance activities against the occupying power, one soldier who had
never met us described it as a war against swimsuit models. We are the
sexy space babes.

Thus our hero gets to experience what it feels like to be the lone
cheerleader in a room full of jocks, to be used arm candy, to find
himself in danger of being raped, to be told he has tits as a way of
complimenting his courage. Around the explicit sex scenes there's some
legitimately interesting world building.

The first book puts our hero through bog standard milsf basic training.
Just with the addition that he ends up working his way through most of
his training squad. (Which gives him another interesting experience,
his squad mates starting to get...expectations.). The second book
assigns him to a frontier picket ship on the border between the Empire
and the Corporate State and...actual plot starts to rear its head as he
starts learning about dodgy business on the frontier. Meanwhile
everyone's still hitting on him.
Wolffan
2021-06-03 13:16:17 UTC
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Post by David Johnston
Typically the HFY community on Reddit loves to portray humanity as
fantastically strong and fast by comparison with other intelligent
species but Sexy Space Babes goes another direction. You might think
the title refers to the huge number of humanoid females offering to have
sex with with the protagonist, but...
You see in a galaxy where every other species follows a one male per
multiple female ratio in true space Amazon tradition, humanity is unique
in our sexual parity meaning we have far, far more "attractive" males
than any other planet in known space. After all with such an imbalance
their standards of acceptability are lower, while men can afford to be a
bit picky while at the same time have to worry about the typically
larger females not allowing them that choice.
Human males are therefore far less shy about showing skin, far more
receptive to sexual overtures, far more ignorant of the ways things work
in interstellar civilization. In short, Earth has a reputation as the
planet of bimbos. When word started to spread that we were engaging in
resistance activities against the occupying power, one soldier who had
never met us described it as a war against swimsuit models. We are the
sexy space babes.
Thus our hero gets to experience what it feels like to be the lone
cheerleader in a room full of jocks, to be used arm candy, to find
himself in danger of being raped, to be told he has tits as a way of
complimenting his courage. Around the explicit sex scenes there's some
legitimately interesting world building.
The first book puts our hero through bog standard milsf basic training.
Just with the addition that he ends up working his way through most of
his training squad. (Which gives him another interesting experience,
his squad mates starting to get...expectations.). The second book
assigns him to a frontier picket ship on the border between the Empire
and the Corporate State and...actual plot starts to rear its head as he
starts learning about dodgy business on the frontier. Meanwhile
everyone's still hitting on him.
<cough> What _are_ the titles of the books? </cough> ’Sexy Space Babes’?
Something else?
Ted Nolan
2021-06-03 13:33:17 UTC
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Post by David Johnston
Typically the HFY community on Reddit loves to portray humanity as
fantastically strong and fast by comparison with other intelligent
species but Sexy Space Babes goes another direction. You might think
the title refers to the huge number of humanoid females offering to have
sex with with the protagonist, but...
You see in a galaxy where every other species follows a one male per
multiple female ratio in true space Amazon tradition, humanity is unique
in our sexual parity meaning we have far, far more "attractive" males
than any other planet in known space. After all with such an imbalance
their standards of acceptability are lower, while men can afford to be a
bit picky while at the same time have to worry about the typically
larger females not allowing them that choice.
Human males are therefore far less shy about showing skin, far more
receptive to sexual overtures, far more ignorant of the ways things work
in interstellar civilization. In short, Earth has a reputation as the
planet of bimbos. When word started to spread that we were engaging in
resistance activities against the occupying power, one soldier who had
never met us described it as a war against swimsuit models. We are the
sexy space babes.
Thus our hero gets to experience what it feels like to be the lone
cheerleader in a room full of jocks, to be used arm candy, to find
himself in danger of being raped, to be told he has tits as a way of
complimenting his courage. Around the explicit sex scenes there's some
legitimately interesting world building.
The first book puts our hero through bog standard milsf basic training.
Just with the addition that he ends up working his way through most of
his training squad. (Which gives him another interesting experience,
his squad mates starting to get...expectations.). The second book
assigns him to a frontier picket ship on the border between the Empire
and the Corporate State and...actual plot starts to rear its head as he
starts learning about dodgy business on the frontier. Meanwhile
everyone's still hitting on him.
<cough> What _are_ the titles of the books? </cough> ’Sexy Space Babes’?
Something else?
It sounds like J.L. Williams's _Between Worlds_, which is on my TBR
list, but which I haven't yet gotten to.

https://www.amazon.com/Between-Worlds-Occupation-Saga-Book-ebook/dp/B08VD7DKC7
Wolffan
2021-06-03 14:39:25 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan
Post by Wolffan
Post by David Johnston
Typically the HFY community on Reddit loves to portray humanity as
fantastically strong and fast by comparison with other intelligent
species but Sexy Space Babes goes another direction. You might think
the title refers to the huge number of humanoid females offering to have
sex with with the protagonist, but...
You see in a galaxy where every other species follows a one male per
multiple female ratio in true space Amazon tradition, humanity is unique
in our sexual parity meaning we have far, far more "attractive" males
than any other planet in known space. After all with such an imbalance
their standards of acceptability are lower, while men can afford to be a
bit picky while at the same time have to worry about the typically
larger females not allowing them that choice.
Human males are therefore far less shy about showing skin, far more
receptive to sexual overtures, far more ignorant of the ways things work
in interstellar civilization. In short, Earth has a reputation as the
planet of bimbos. When word started to spread that we were engaging in
resistance activities against the occupying power, one soldier who had
never met us described it as a war against swimsuit models. We are the
sexy space babes.
Thus our hero gets to experience what it feels like to be the lone
cheerleader in a room full of jocks, to be used arm candy, to find
himself in danger of being raped, to be told he has tits as a way of
complimenting his courage. Around the explicit sex scenes there's some
legitimately interesting world building.
The first book puts our hero through bog standard milsf basic training.
Just with the addition that he ends up working his way through most of
his training squad. (Which gives him another interesting experience,
his squad mates starting to get...expectations.). The second book
assigns him to a frontier picket ship on the border between the Empire
and the Corporate State and...actual plot starts to rear its head as he
starts learning about dodgy business on the frontier. Meanwhile
everyone's still hitting on him.
<cough> What _are_ the titles of the books? </cough> ’Sexy Space Babes’?
Something else?
It sounds like J.L. Williams's _Between Worlds_, which is on my TBR
list, but which I haven't yet gotten to.
https://www.amazon.com/Between-Worlds-Occupation-Saga-Book-ebook/dp/B08VD7DKC7
Thanks. Never heard of it before.
pete...@gmail.com
2021-06-03 23:08:17 UTC
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On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 3:44:50 AM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:


Start here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/jvpsf5/sexy_space_babes_chapter_one

Note that this is Reddit. It's essentially fanfiction, and some is excellent, some is
garbage. Nearly all could use an editor. Some /r/HFY material has seen commercial
publication.

Pt
Ted Nolan
2021-06-04 02:45:35 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/jvpsf5/sexy_space_babes_chapter_one
Note that this is Reddit. It's essentially fanfiction, and some is excellent, some is
garbage. Nearly all could use an editor. Some /r/HFY material has seen commercial
publication.
Pt
As has this, at the amazon link I posted upthread.
pete...@gmail.com
2021-06-04 03:23:21 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan
Post by ***@gmail.com
https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/jvpsf5/sexy_space_babes_chapter_one
Note that this is Reddit. It's essentially fanfiction, and some is excellent, some is
garbage. Nearly all could use an editor. Some /r/HFY material has seen commercial
publication.
Pt
As has this, at the amazon link I posted upthread.
Reading the comments on Reddit, the commercial release has been slightly
bowdlerized; a male-male scene was cut.

Pt
Michael F. Stemper
2021-06-04 15:51:25 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/jvpsf5/sexy_space_babes_chapter_one
I just realized. The aliens are seven-foot, tusked, female soldiers.
They're modeled on Saergent Taura!
--
Michael F. Stemper
Exodus 22:21
Dimensional Traveler
2021-06-05 00:46:15 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/jvpsf5/sexy_space_babes_chapter_one
“If there’s one thing I’ve learned about ‘English’ it’s that little
enough of it makes sense. It doesn’t so much absorb phrases and words
from other languages as much as take them into a back alley and mug them
for spare syntax. [...]"
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow
words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways
to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." -
James Nicoll
--
Troll, troll, troll your post gently down the thread
Angrily, angrily, angrily, the net's a nut's scream.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-05 00:58:39 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/jvpsf5/sexy_space_babes_chapter_one
“If there’s one thing I’ve learned about ‘English’ it’s
that little
enough of it makes sense. It doesn’t so much absorb phrases and words
from other languages as much as take them into a back alley and mug them
for spare syntax. [...]"
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow
words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways
to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." -
James Nicoll
Yes, that's the reference. With modifications.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Michael F. Stemper
2021-06-05 15:50:15 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by ***@gmail.com
https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/jvpsf5/sexy_space_babes_chapter_one
“If there’s one thing I’ve learned about ‘English’ it’s that little
enough of it makes sense. It doesn’t so much absorb phrases and words
from other languages as much as take them into a back alley and mug them
for spare syntax. [...]"
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow
words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways
to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." -
James Nicoll
Yeah, they didn't get it quite right, but misquote is close enough to
original that it's easily traceable.
--
Michael F. Stemper
87.3% of all statistics are made up by the person giving them.
Dimensional Traveler
2021-06-05 16:16:33 UTC
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Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by ***@gmail.com
https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/jvpsf5/sexy_space_babes_chapter_one
“If there’s one thing I’ve learned about ‘English’ it’s that little
enough of it makes sense. It doesn’t so much absorb phrases and words
from other languages as much as take them into a back alley and mug them
for spare syntax. [...]"
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow
words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways
to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
- James Nicoll
Yeah, they didn't get it quite right, but misquote is close enough to
original that it's easily traceable.
I've seen it misquoted so many times that I have it in a txt file for
easy copy-n-paste.
--
Troll, troll, troll your post gently down the thread
Angrily, angrily, angrily, the net's a nut's scream.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-05 17:07:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by ***@gmail.com
https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/jvpsf5/sexy_space_babes_chapter_one
“If there’s one thing I’ve learned about ‘English’ it’s
that little
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Dimensional Traveler
enough of it makes sense. It doesn’t so much absorb phrases and words
from other languages as much as take them into a back alley and mug them
for spare syntax. [...]"
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow
words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways
to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
- James Nicoll
Yeah, they didn't get it quite right, but misquote is close enough to
original that it's easily traceable.
I've seen it misquoted so many times that I have it in a txt file for
easy copy-n-paste.
I have it saved to disk.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-04 18:26:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/jvpsf5/sexy_space_babes_chapter_one
“If there’s one thing I’ve learned about
‘English’ it’s that little
enough of it makes sense. It doesn’t so much absorb phrases and words
from other languages as much as take them into a back alley and mug them
for spare syntax. [...]"
At least he didn't attribute the quote to Booker T. Washington.
Or anybody a-tall.
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/english-is-not-normal
Interesting.
There were even writerly sorts who proposed native English
replacements for those lofty Latinates, and it’s hard not to yearn
for some of these: in place of crucified, fundamental, definition
and conclusion, how about crossed, groundwrought, saywhat, and endsay?
^^^^^^^
"hung on rood" is still occasionally seen, mostly when the
translator wants to preserve the flavor of the original.

How about having the English-rooted words *in addition to* the
Latinate ones? See below.
Seems reminiscent of "Uncleftish Beholding".
So it does. Back in the 1970s, I got out a huge sheet of paper
and did the entire roundaround board of the firststuffs. Alas, I
don't have it any more. Three moves equal one fire, and we've
had (counts fingers) seven.

The link I posted upthread, about how English is weird, points
out that instead of replacing a French or Latin borrowing with
native English, we frequently use all three. The article gave
the example of "kingly," "royal," "regal." And it could've added
"basil," meaning the herb, from Greek _to basilikon_, "the royal
herb." And _athelas_ has made its way into some sections of the
English vocabulary too, and its translation "kingsfoil." Why
settle for just one synonym when we can have six? (Old English
had a relativel small vocabulary, even if you include kennings
like "whale-road" and "gannet's-bath." No wonder we started
chasing other languages down dark alleys.)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Quadibloc
2021-06-05 03:33:40 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
No wonder we started
chasing other languages down dark alleys.
Still, it _could_ be said that James Nicoll was being quite unfair
to the English language.

It wasn't as if we forced the Normans to invade and conquer
Britain against their wishes, for example.

John Savard
Robert Carnegie
2021-06-05 12:17:41 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/jvpsf5/sexy_space_babes_chapter_one
“If there’s one thing I’ve learned about
‘English’ it’s that little
enough of it makes sense. It doesn’t so much absorb phrases and words
from other languages as much as take them into a back alley and mug them
for spare syntax. [...]"
At least he didn't attribute the quote to Booker T. Washington.
Or anybody a-tall.
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/english-is-not-normal
Interesting.
There were even writerly sorts who proposed native English
replacements for those lofty Latinates, and it’s hard not to yearn
for some of these: in place of crucified, fundamental, definition
and conclusion, how about crossed, groundwrought, saywhat, and endsay?
^^^^^^^
"hung on rood" is still occasionally seen, mostly when the
translator wants to preserve the flavor of the original.
How about having the English-rooted words *in addition to* the
Latinate ones? See below.
Seems reminiscent of "Uncleftish Beholding".
So it does. Back in the 1970s, I got out a huge sheet of paper
and did the entire roundaround board of the firststuffs. Alas, I
don't have it any more. Three moves equal one fire, and we've
had (counts fingers) seven.
The link I posted upthread, about how English is weird, points
out that instead of replacing a French or Latin borrowing with
native English, we frequently use all three. The article gave
the example of "kingly," "royal," "regal." And it could've added
"basil," meaning the herb, from Greek _to basilikon_, "the royal
herb." And _athelas_ has made its way into some sections of the
English vocabulary too, and its translation "kingsfoil." Why
settle for just one synonym when we can have six? (Old English
had a relativel small vocabulary, even if you include kennings
like "whale-road" and "gannet's-bath." No wonder we started
chasing other languages down dark alleys.)
I think athelas is fictional - though this article
which says so appears to have a comments section
which I can't see.
<http://middleearthnews.com/2014/02/18/is-athelas-based-on-real-life-plant/>

They have kingsfoil in Earthsea, possibly imported?
Mentioned here:
<https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Athelas>
I don't remember if there are too few kings
in _A Wizard of Earthsea_ to use it properly
or perhaps too many?
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-05 13:37:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The link I posted upthread, about how English is weird, points
out that instead of replacing a French or Latin borrowing with
native English, we frequently use all three. The article gave
the example of "kingly," "royal," "regal." And it could've added
"basil," meaning the herb, from Greek _to basilikon_, "the royal
herb." And _athelas_ has made its way into some sections of the
English vocabulary too, and its translation "kingsfoil." Why
settle for just one synonym when we can have six? (Old English
had a relativel small vocabulary, even if you include kennings
like "whale-road" and "gannet's-bath." No wonder we started
chasing other languages down dark alleys.)
I think athelas is fictional - though this article
which says so appears to have a comments section
which I can't see.
<http://middleearthnews.com/2014/02/18/is-athelas-based-on-real-life-plant/>
The *name* athelas is fictional. The site you linked provides a
Quenya source for it, "beneficial leaf." On the other
hand, that champion pedant, the Master Herbalist, starts listing
all the words for the plant, "... or, for those who know somewhat
of the Valinorean..."

"I do so," says Aragorn, "and I care not whether you say now
_asea aranion_ or _kingsfoil,_ so long as you have some."

Where _aranion_ is clearly the genitive plural of _aran_, "king."
Post by Robert Carnegie
They have kingsfoil in Earthsea, possibly imported?
Loanword.
Post by Robert Carnegie
<https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Athelas>
I don't remember if there are too few kings
in _A Wizard of Earthsea_ to use it properly
or perhaps too many?
Well, at the time of the discussion quoted above, there is
exactly one King in Middle-earth: Eomer. Aragorn is King by
right, but not yet crowned. What other kings there may be,
outside Gondor and the fragments of Arnor, are not mentioned.

As to _A Wizard of Earthsea_. I observe that it was published
in 1968, and it can't have been too long after that when I read it.
I remember neither its use of _athelas_ nor anything else about it.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Christian Weisgerber
2021-06-05 20:06:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The link I posted upthread, about how English is weird, points
out that instead of replacing a French or Latin borrowing with
native English, we frequently use all three. The article gave
the example of "kingly," "royal," "regal." And it could've added
"basil," meaning the herb, from Greek _to basilikon_, "the royal
herb." And _athelas_ has made its way into some sections of the
English vocabulary too, and its translation "kingsfoil."
Then there's Persion _shah_, which apart from the direct loan, is
also at the origin of the name of the game of "chess".

Of course, German also has König, Regent, royal, Royal as a recent
loan from English, Basilikum, Athelas in translations of Tolkien,
and Schah/Schach. Much of this list, and any further additions I
suspect, can be found across all European languages.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-05 20:55:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The link I posted upthread, about how English is weird, points
out that instead of replacing a French or Latin borrowing with
native English, we frequently use all three. The article gave
the example of "kingly," "royal," "regal." And it could've added
"basil," meaning the herb, from Greek _to basilikon_, "the royal
herb." And _athelas_ has made its way into some sections of the
English vocabulary too, and its translation "kingsfoil."
Then there's Persion _shah_, which apart from the direct loan, is
also at the origin of the name of the game of "chess".
Right. I figured there would be Eastern-IE cognates, but I don't
have anywhere to look them up (unless maybe the OED, which is rather
heavy to get down from the shelf).

But _Shah_ provides an example of one of the major divisions in
the Indo-European group: the centum-languages and the
satem-languages. _Centum_ is Latin for "hundred," and _satem_
is Avestic (old Persian) for the same thing.
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Of course, German also has König, Regent, royal, Royal as a recent
loan from English, Basilikum
I mentioned somewhere upthread that Greek _to basilikon_,
"the kingly thing," gives us the name of the herb basil, _Ocimum
basilicum._
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Athelas in translations of Tolkien,
and Schah/Schach.
Meaning either "chess" or "the king" in a game of chess? Or
both?

I don't know how much of the terminology of chess comes from the
original Persian (I've never played it), but "checkmate" comes
from _shah maat_, "the king is dead."

Much of this list, and any further additions I
Post by Christian Weisgerber
suspect, can be found across all European languages.
I'm sure of it.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Christian Weisgerber
2021-06-05 22:46:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Then there's Persion _shah_, which apart from the direct loan, is
also at the origin of the name of the game of "chess".
But _Shah_ provides an example of one of the major divisions in
the Indo-European group: the centum-languages and the
satem-languages.
How so?

The centum/satem divide seems to have been a cause of academic
excitement in the 19th century, but there is not a lot of significance
to it. And the discovery of Tocharian killed the idea that it was
some sort of East/West divide. It's just one of many isoglosses
across the Indo-European languages. I like this map, whose crazy
overlaps illustrate just why Indoeuropeanists have struggled for
so long to resolve the relationships between the different branches
of IE:
Loading Image...
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Of course, German also has [...] and Schah/Schach.
Meaning either "chess" or "the king" in a game of chess? Or
both?
"Schah" for the ruler of Persia, "Schach" for chess and the call
check! in the game.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I don't know how much of the terminology of chess comes from the
original Persian (I've never played it), but "checkmate" comes
from _shah maat_, "the king is dead."
Apparently, "the king is surprised", and the "dead" part is an
Arabic misunderstanding of the Persian expression.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Much of this list, and any further additions I
Post by Christian Weisgerber
suspect, can be found across all European languages.
I'm sure of it.
Which directly undercuts the idea that English is somehow special
in collecting those words.

Obviously, as a language with a colonial history, English has picked
up vocabulary from all over the world, like, you know, "bungalow"
or "kangaroo". Languages without that background have simply mugged
English in a dark alley and rifled her pockets...
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-05 23:50:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Then there's Persion _shah_, which apart from the direct loan, is
also at the origin of the name of the game of "chess".
But _Shah_ provides an example of one of the major divisions in
the Indo-European group: the centum-languages and the
satem-languages.
How so?
The centum/satem divide seems to have been a cause of academic
excitement in the 19th century, but there is not a lot of significance
to it. And the discovery of Tocharian killed the idea that it was
some sort of East/West divide. It's just one of many isoglosses
across the Indo-European languages. I like this map, whose crazy
overlaps illustrate just why Indoeuropeanists have struggled for
so long to resolve the relationships between the different branches
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Indo-European_isoglosses.png
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Of course, German also has [...] and Schah/Schach.
Meaning either "chess" or "the king" in a game of chess? Or
both?
"Schah" for the ruler of Persia, "Schach" for chess and the call
check! in the game.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I don't know how much of the terminology of chess comes from the
original Persian (I've never played it), but "checkmate" comes
from _shah maat_, "the king is dead."
Apparently, "the king is surprised", and the "dead" part is an
Arabic misunderstanding of the Persian expression.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Much of this list, and any further additions I
Post by Christian Weisgerber
suspect, can be found across all European languages.
I'm sure of it.
Which directly undercuts the idea that English is somehow special
in collecting those words.
Obviously, as a language with a colonial history, English has picked
up vocabulary from all over the world, like, you know, "bungalow"
or "kangaroo". Languages without that background have simply mugged
English in a dark alley and rifled her pockets...
Well, that's fair.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2021-06-06 16:46:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 22:46:24 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Then there's Persion _shah_, which apart from the direct loan, is
also at the origin of the name of the game of "chess".
But _Shah_ provides an example of one of the major divisions in
the Indo-European group: the centum-languages and the
satem-languages.
How so?
The centum/satem divide seems to have been a cause of academic
excitement in the 19th century, but there is not a lot of significance
to it. And the discovery of Tocharian killed the idea that it was
some sort of East/West divide. It's just one of many isoglosses
across the Indo-European languages. I like this map, whose crazy
overlaps illustrate just why Indoeuropeanists have struggled for
so long to resolve the relationships between the different branches
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Indo-European_isoglosses.png
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Of course, German also has [...] and Schah/Schach.
Meaning either "chess" or "the king" in a game of chess? Or
both?
"Schah" for the ruler of Persia, "Schach" for chess and the call
check! in the game.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I don't know how much of the terminology of chess comes from the
original Persian (I've never played it), but "checkmate" comes
from _shah maat_, "the king is dead."
Apparently, "the king is surprised", and the "dead" part is an
Arabic misunderstanding of the Persian expression.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checkmate>
has this note:

"The term checkmate is, according to the Barnhart Etymological
Dictionary, an alteration of the Persian phrase "shah mat" (??? ????)
which means "the King is helpless". ... Others maintain that it means
"the King is dead", as chess reached Europe via the Arab world, and
Arabic mata (??????) means "died" or "is dead"."

It then goes into even more detail: "surprised", for example, is said
to be meant in the military sense of "ambushed", not the delightful
sense of Peek-a-Boo.

Of course, saying that the English "checkmate" comes from the Arabic
"shah mat" ("the king is dead") is still to say it comes from the
Persian "shah mat" ("the king is ambushed"), just by an indirect
route.
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Much of this list, and any further additions I
Post by Christian Weisgerber
suspect, can be found across all European languages.
I'm sure of it.
Which directly undercuts the idea that English is somehow special
in collecting those words.
Obviously, as a language with a colonial history, English has picked
up vocabulary from all over the world, like, you know, "bungalow"
or "kangaroo". Languages without that background have simply mugged
English in a dark alley and rifled her pockets...
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Paul S Person
2021-06-06 16:34:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 20:06:09 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The link I posted upthread, about how English is weird, points
out that instead of replacing a French or Latin borrowing with
native English, we frequently use all three. The article gave
the example of "kingly," "royal," "regal." And it could've added
"basil," meaning the herb, from Greek _to basilikon_, "the royal
herb." And _athelas_ has made its way into some sections of the
English vocabulary too, and its translation "kingsfoil."
Then there's Persion _shah_, which apart from the direct loan, is
also at the origin of the name of the game of "chess".
For another perspective on this, see
<http://www.chessmaniac.com/the-etymology-of-chess/>
It derives the word "chess" from a Sanskrit term "chaturanga".

It also has this interesting note:
"Chaturanga was introduced to Persia around 600 AD. In Middle Persian
written in the Pahlavi script, the name became chatrang. The pieces
became shah (king), frazen (general), pil (elephant), asp (horse) rox
(officer on a chariot), and payadag (soldiers). Chatrang existed for
about 200 years.

Chatrang subsequently evolved to shatranj in Arab speaking countries.
The Arabs did not have the ch or ng sound, so the ch became sh and the
ng became nj."

And "shatranj" is indeed what we called it when I learned Arabic.
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Of course, German also has König, Regent, royal, Royal as a recent
loan from English, Basilikum, Athelas in translations of Tolkien,
and Schah/Schach. Much of this list, and any further additions I
suspect, can be found across all European languages.
German "Schach", OTOH, might well have come from "Shah". Trying to
reasearch /this/ brings up a different "Schach", derived from Hebrew.

It also reminds me of the chess term "zwugzwang", which is, of course,
the German word "Zwugzwang", used in English because it is much
shorter than "it's your turn to move and all the options are bad ones
which will weaken your position".

And so it goes ...
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-06 18:34:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
It also reminds me of the chess term "zwugzwang", which is, of course,
the German word "Zwugzwang", used in English because it is much
shorter than "it's your turn to move and all the options are bad ones
which will weaken your position".
Oh, cool. Saved to disk; since I don't play chess I won't have
the opportunity to use it in RL, but it could make a really neat
plot element.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Robert Carnegie
2021-06-06 19:17:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
It also reminds me of the chess term "zwugzwang", which is, of course,
the German word "Zwugzwang", used in English because it is much
shorter than "it's your turn to move and all the options are bad ones
which will weaken your position".
Oh, cool. Saved to disk; since I don't play chess I won't have
the opportunity to use it in RL, but it could make a really neat
plot element.
Ahem, <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zugzwang>

Lower case (in Wikipedia) if you're not writing German.

But I'm reasonably confident that it's "zugzwang" not "zwugzwang".

Pronunciation: See Wikipedia, but pretty much "tsu:ktsvang".

"in zugzwang", the German word for "in" being "in".

Perhaps I shouldn't think of
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mornington_Crescent_%28game%29>
but I do.
Quadibloc
2021-06-07 01:40:04 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
But I'm reasonably confident that it's "zugzwang" not "zwugzwang".
Your confidence is in no wise misplaced. I may not know German,
but I know a little about Chess.

John Savard
Paul S Person
2021-06-07 16:42:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 12:17:38 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Paul S Person
It also reminds me of the chess term "zwugzwang", which is, of course,
the German word "Zwugzwang", used in English because it is much
shorter than "it's your turn to move and all the options are bad ones
which will weaken your position".
Oh, cool. Saved to disk; since I don't play chess I won't have
the opportunity to use it in RL, but it could make a really neat
plot element.
Ahem, <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zugzwang>
Lower case (in Wikipedia) if you're not writing German.
But I'm reasonably confident that it's "zugzwang" not "zwugzwang".
I, sadly, must report that I am /quite/ sure that I misspelled it.

My apologies to everyone I confused, annoyed, or bothered as a result.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Pronunciation: See Wikipedia, but pretty much "tsu:ktsvang".
"in zugzwang", the German word for "in" being "in".
Perhaps I shouldn't think of
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mornington_Crescent_%28game%29>
but I do.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
William Hyde
2021-06-06 20:40:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
It also reminds me of the chess term "zwugzwang", which is, of course,
the German word "Zwugzwang", used in English because it is much
shorter than "it's your turn to move and all the options are bad ones
which will weaken your position".
Oh, cool. Saved to disk; since I don't play chess I won't have
the opportunity to use it in RL, but it could make a really neat
plot element.
Among chess players it is sometimes used as a verb describing RL situations:

"I was zugzwanged into seeing `The return of the jedi'". As in the S.O. would throw a serious fit if they stayed in that night, and the other offered movie was worse. (As for myself I had no such excuse, seeing it of my own free will).

Also pertaining to the above, "Rook" is another word in chess which comes from Persian, in this case from "Rukh" meaning chariot". Most other piece names are modern, though "Pawn" is Latin in origin.

Even aside from opening names ("Benoni" - child of sorrow) chess has a considerable vocabulary. Spider Robinson's "Time Pressure" refers to the situation where a player has only a few seconds to make a number of moves, this is also referred to as "Zeitnot", with obvious everyday uses. A "Grimshaw" is a situation where two
pieces are caused to interfere with one another. Less obvious application to RL though I did see a Grimshaw while out walking the other day. A slow motion Grimshaw and the cars managed to miss each other. On the plus side this was a three car Grimshaw, and that can't happen in Chess.

William Hyde
Christian Weisgerber
2021-06-06 20:32:08 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
It also reminds me of the chess term "zwugzwang", which is, of course,
the German word "Zwugzwang", used in English because it is much
Oh, cool. Saved to disk;
"Zugzwang"
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
shorter than "it's your turn to move and all the options are bad ones
which will weaken your position".
It's not like this is inherent in the German term, which basically
just means 'requirement to move'. The rest is by implication in
the context of turn-based games.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Christian Weisgerber
2021-06-06 20:18:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Then there's Persion _shah_, which apart from the direct loan, is
also at the origin of the name of the game of "chess".
For another perspective on this, see
<http://www.chessmaniac.com/the-etymology-of-chess/>
It derives the word "chess" from a Sanskrit term "chaturanga".
No, it doesn't.

It traces the Sanskrit name forward through Arabic and into the
Spanish, Portuguese and Greek forms. Then it says: "For the rest
of Europe, shatranj was replaced by versions of the Persian word
shah (king)."

Old French had esche(c)s, eschas, which is where English...
Post by Paul S Person
German "Schach", OTOH, might well have come from "Shah".
... and German got the word from.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Paul S Person
2021-06-07 16:49:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 20:18:52 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Then there's Persion _shah_, which apart from the direct loan, is
also at the origin of the name of the game of "chess".
For another perspective on this, see
<http://www.chessmaniac.com/the-etymology-of-chess/>
It derives the word "chess" from a Sanskrit term "chaturanga".
No, it doesn't.
It traces the Sanskrit name forward through Arabic and into the
Spanish, Portuguese and Greek forms. Then it says: "For the rest
of Europe, shatranj was replaced by versions of the Persian word
shah (king)."
Old French had esche(c)s, eschas, which is where English...
Post by Paul S Person
German "Schach", OTOH, might well have come from "Shah".
... and German got the word from.
Looks like I stopped reading too soon.

Your point is conceded.

Have a nice day.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
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