Discussion:
Human Empires
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Amicus Brevis
2020-01-02 00:52:41 UTC
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I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.



Regards
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2020-01-02 01:03:47 UTC
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Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a
human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened
empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing
tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a
universe of aliens.
Well, probably the canonical answer would be the Dominic Flandry books
by Poul Anderson. Of course he opts to set his tale in the waning days
of that supremacy.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-02 03:02:06 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a
human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened
empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing
tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a
universe of aliens.
Well, probably the canonical answer would be the Dominic Flandry books
by Poul Anderson. Of course he opts to set his tale in the waning days
of that supremacy.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
===
Thanks. I will check it out.
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-02 03:14:31 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a
human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened
empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing
tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a
universe of aliens.
Well, probably the canonical answer would be the Dominic Flandry books
by Poul Anderson. Of course he opts to set his tale in the waning days
of that supremacy.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Hi Ted,
I checked and it is a bit old. If anything more recent occurs to you, I'd appreciate it. And thanks for the prompt response.


Regards
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2020-01-02 05:47:12 UTC
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Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a
human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened
empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing
tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a
universe of aliens.
Well, probably the canonical answer would be the Dominic Flandry books
by Poul Anderson. Of course he opts to set his tale in the waning days
of that supremacy.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Hi Ted,
I checked and it is a bit old. If anything more recent occurs to you,
I'd appreciate it. And thanks for the prompt response.
Hmm.

Well, "Terran Empire" stories are kind of out of style more recently due
to societal changes.

You could maybe count Weber's "Honor Harrington" series starting with
_On Basilisk Station_. The series is set during the rise of the Star Kingdom
of Manticore into a Star Empire. There are some aliens, but most of the
conflict is from other human polities. Don't know if it's new enough. The
final book was last year, but the first one was in the last millenium.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
J. Clarke
2020-01-03 01:28:05 UTC
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On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 19:14:31 -0800 (PST), Amicus Brevis
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a
human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened
empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing
tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a
universe of aliens.
Well, probably the canonical answer would be the Dominic Flandry books
by Poul Anderson. Of course he opts to set his tale in the waning days
of that supremacy.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Hi Ted,
I checked and it is a bit old. If anything more recent occurs to you, I'd appreciate it. And thanks for the prompt response.
There's a good bit of contact between humans and aliens in Cherryh's
Alliance/Union future history (timeline runs from a now alternate 2005
out to 3187), but the aliens are there. I have always wanted to see
the Kif get a load of Norway (you think that's a warship--that's not a
warship, _this_ is a warship) but that's a story that doesn't seem to
hold interest for her. It's not clear who would end up on top if it
got to be a conflict.

It's not an Empire but the humans seem to do pretty well in Niven's
"Known Space"--the Pak kind of orchestrate behind the scenes, but the
Pak (some of them anyway) are human.

The Foreigner universe (also Cherryh) is a bit different--a human
starship left a colony on an alien-inhabited world--the human
civilization as a whole is much more powerful than these particular
aliens, but the starship is lost so that civilization is not
accessible.
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-03 02:39:47 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 19:14:31 -0800 (PST), Amicus Brevis
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a
human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened
empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing
tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a
universe of aliens.
Well, probably the canonical answer would be the Dominic Flandry books
by Poul Anderson. Of course he opts to set his tale in the waning days
of that supremacy.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Hi Ted,
I checked and it is a bit old. If anything more recent occurs to you, I'd appreciate it. And thanks for the prompt response.
There's a good bit of contact between humans and aliens in Cherryh's
Alliance/Union future history (timeline runs from a now alternate 2005
out to 3187), but the aliens are there. I have always wanted to see
the Kif get a load of Norway (you think that's a warship--that's not a
warship, _this_ is a warship) but that's a story that doesn't seem to
hold interest for her. It's not clear who would end up on top if it
got to be a conflict.
It's not an Empire but the humans seem to do pretty well in Niven's
"Known Space"--the Pak kind of orchestrate behind the scenes, but the
Pak (some of them anyway) are human.
The Foreigner universe (also Cherryh) is a bit different--a human
starship left a colony on an alien-inhabited world--the human
civilization as a whole is much more powerful than these particular
aliens, but the starship is lost so that civilization is not
accessible.
Thanks. I have read quite a few of the Foreinger series and the Chanur as well. Chanur is a favorite of mine. I reread it every few years. I have read almost all of Niven's Known Space books - more than a dozen of them. _Protector_ is one of my favorite books of all time.

You recommended so very good ones. Ones I love a great deal.


Regards
Paul Colquhoun
2020-01-02 06:04:27 UTC
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On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:52:41 -0800 (PST), Amicus Brevis <***@gmail.com> wrote:
| I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in
| which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the
| humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or
| close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
|
| Regards


The Allan Dean Foster "Commonwealth" books spring to mind.

Maybe not as "empire-y" as it could be, and its a human/insect joint
commonwealth, but there are several other species around.
--
Reverend Paul Colquhoun, ULC. http://andor.dropbear.id.au/
Asking for technical help in newsgroups? Read this first:
http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro
Lynn McGuire
2020-01-02 19:43:09 UTC
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Post by Paul Colquhoun
| I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in
| which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the
| humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or
| close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
|
| Regards
The Allan Dean Foster "Commonwealth" books spring to mind.
Maybe not as "empire-y" as it could be, and its a human/insect joint
commonwealth, but there are several other species around.
I second that.

Lynn
-dsr-
2020-01-02 17:24:57 UTC
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Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
Alexei Panshin's three books:

Star Well
Masque World
The Thurb Revolution

happen in the Nashuite Empire, which is definitely human-dominated.

Walter Jon Williams wrote an interestingly similar trio:
The Crown Jewels
House of Shards
Rock of Ages

which take place in the human empire that arises after they kick out
the Khosalikh, who conquered the humans some centuries ago but are not
currently posing much of a threat.


-dsr-
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-02 21:43:07 UTC
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Post by -dsr-
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
Star Well
Masque World
The Thurb Revolution
happen in the Nashuite Empire, which is definitely human-dominated.
The Crown Jewels
House of Shards
Rock of Ages
which take place in the human empire that arises after they kick out
the Khosalikh, who conquered the humans some centuries ago but are not
currently posing much of a threat.
-dsr-
==
Thanks. This scenario sounds very much like what I am looking.


Regards
Lynn McGuire
2020-01-02 19:49:22 UTC
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Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
Regards
A tale in three parts of where the humans are at the bottom of the
galactic societies and struggling to get respect:

_Live Free or Die: Troy Rising I_ by John Ringo
https://www.amazon.com/Live-Free-Die-Troy-Rising/dp/1439133972/

Lynn
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-02 21:44:28 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
Regards
A tale in three parts of where the humans are at the bottom of the
_Live Free or Die: Troy Rising I_ by John Ringo
https://www.amazon.com/Live-Free-Die-Troy-Rising/dp/1439133972/
Lynn
Bring 'em on! Thanks!


Regards
David DeLaney
2020-01-03 06:58:25 UTC
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Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Lynn McGuire
A tale in three parts of where the humans are at the bottom of the
_Live Free or Die: Troy Rising I_ by John Ringo
https://www.amazon.com/Live-Free-Die-Troy-Rising/dp/1439133972/
Bring 'em on! Thanks!
Note that this is a novelisation of the start of the backstory for the
excellent and long-running (and nearly over) webcomic _Schlock Mercenary_,
which roughly fits your bill.

Dave, it's now in book 20, the last one; the war has gone intergalactic, and
the xenoarchaeology deeply scary
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Robert Woodward
2020-01-03 18:23:19 UTC
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Post by David DeLaney
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Lynn McGuire
A tale in three parts of where the humans are at the bottom of the
_Live Free or Die: Troy Rising I_ by John Ringo
https://www.amazon.com/Live-Free-Die-Troy-Rising/dp/1439133972/
Bring 'em on! Thanks!
Note that this is a novelisation of the start of the backstory for the
excellent and long-running (and nearly over) webcomic _Schlock Mercenary_,
which roughly fits your bill.
Not really, the implicit backstory of _Schlock Mercenary_ might had been
John Ringo's inspiration, but his 3 books (so far) don't really fit.
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, it's now in book 20, the last one; the war has gone intergalactic, and
the xenoarchaeology deeply scary
The hints of the xenoarchaeology in the previous _Schlock Mercenary_*
volumes was disturbing enough.

*BTW, since I ordered previous volumes direct, I get Christmas cards
from them; this year it was copied from the first panel of this page:
https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2019-09-08
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-------------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
h***@gmail.com
2020-01-04 01:35:40 UTC
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Post by Robert Woodward
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Lynn McGuire
A tale in three parts of where the humans are at the bottom of the
_Live Free or Die: Troy Rising I_ by John Ringo
https://www.amazon.com/Live-Free-Die-Troy-Rising/dp/1439133972/
Bring 'em on! Thanks!
Note that this is a novelisation of the start of the backstory for the
excellent and long-running (and nearly over) webcomic _Schlock Mercenary_,
which roughly fits your bill.
Not really, the implicit backstory of _Schlock Mercenary_ might had been
John Ringo's inspiration, but his 3 books (so far) don't really fit.
My vague recollection is that it was and there were discussions between the two authors but as it went on he moved more into his own ideas and drifted away
He hasn't released anything in the series since 2011 and, as I recall it, the 3rd book wasn't really a good resolution.

It's one place I find Ringo's writing annoying, he's got a really crappy habit (for a reader) of abandoning series
Troy Rising, The Council Wars.
I can't remember if The Hedron Wars (part of the Posleen War series) tied things up or whether it left things handing
Lynn McGuire
2020-01-03 19:43:56 UTC
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Post by David DeLaney
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Lynn McGuire
A tale in three parts of where the humans are at the bottom of the
_Live Free or Die: Troy Rising I_ by John Ringo
https://www.amazon.com/Live-Free-Die-Troy-Rising/dp/1439133972/
Bring 'em on! Thanks!
Note that this is a novelisation of the start of the backstory for the
excellent and long-running (and nearly over) webcomic _Schlock Mercenary_,
which roughly fits your bill.
Dave, it's now in book 20, the last one; the war has gone intergalactic, and
the xenoarchaeology deeply scary
Hey, nice save ! I did not even consider Schlock.

And the Long Gun stuff is not good.

Lynn
Lynn McGuire
2020-01-02 19:52:14 UTC
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Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
Regards
_We Are Legion (We Are Bob) (Bobiverse) (Volume 1)_ by Dennis Taylor
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680587/

Lynn
James Nicoll
2020-01-02 20:32:04 UTC
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Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a
human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened
empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing
tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a
universe of aliens.
Hoyle's Rockets in Ursa Major involves Earth humans discovering they
have imperialistic space cousins who have so endeared themselves to
aliens everywhere that the universal reaction to discovering a human
world is to kill it with fire.

Bova's On a Darkening Plain has something similar in its backstory:
whatever humans did umpty thousand years ago was enough for aliens to
stomp us back into the stone age. By the era of Stars, Won't You Hide Me?
the aliens have concluded humans don't learn, so they set about wiping
us all out. Doesn't quite succeed although they do their best.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
William Hyde
2020-01-02 21:19:40 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a
human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened
empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing
tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a
universe of aliens.
Hoyle's Rockets in Ursa Major involves Earth humans discovering they
have imperialistic space cousins who have so endeared themselves to
aliens everywhere that the universal reaction to discovering a human
world is to kill it with fire.
whatever humans did umpty thousand years ago was enough for aliens to
stomp us back into the stone age. By the era of Stars, Won't You Hide Me?
the aliens have concluded humans don't learn, so they set about wiping
us all out. Doesn't quite succeed although they do their best.
After a few unfortunate experiences with aliens, the humans in Baxter's Xeelee universe do form a galaxy wide empire of sorts, exterminating every alien species they come across with the exception of the Xeelee and one of our former overlord species who have escaped into the handwavium domain.

Come to think of it though, the humans do bring back to life one species which they feel may have insights which will help vs the Xeelee, and there are the *spoiler* creatures, and intelligent organic spaceships.

So it may come a bit closer to the OP's original request than I thought.


William Hyde
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-02 21:48:06 UTC
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Post by William Hyde
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a
human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened
empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing
tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a
universe of aliens.
Hoyle's Rockets in Ursa Major involves Earth humans discovering they
have imperialistic space cousins who have so endeared themselves to
aliens everywhere that the universal reaction to discovering a human
world is to kill it with fire.
whatever humans did umpty thousand years ago was enough for aliens to
stomp us back into the stone age. By the era of Stars, Won't You Hide Me?
the aliens have concluded humans don't learn, so they set about wiping
us all out. Doesn't quite succeed although they do their best.
After a few unfortunate experiences with aliens, the humans in Baxter's Xeelee universe do form a galaxy wide empire of sorts, exterminating every alien species they come across with the exception of the Xeelee and one of our former overlord species who have escaped into the handwavium domain.
Come to think of it though, the humans do bring back to life one species which they feel may have insights which will help vs the Xeelee, and there are the *spoiler* creatures, and intelligent organic spaceships.
So it may come a bit closer to the OP's original request than I thought.
William Hyde
Thanks. I have read quite a few of the Xeelee books. Yes, I agree with this way of summarizing the arc of the story.


Regards
David DeLaney
2020-01-03 07:01:53 UTC
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Post by William Hyde
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a
human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened
empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing
tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a
universe of aliens.
Hoyle's Rockets in Ursa Major
Bova's On a Darkening Plain
the humans in Baxter's Xeelee universe
Speaking of intelligent organic spaceships, Sucharitkul's Inquestor tetralogy.

Dave, not an enlightened galactic empire, humans presently top dogs
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-02 21:46:33 UTC
Reply
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a
human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened
empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing
tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a
universe of aliens.
Hoyle's Rockets in Ursa Major involves Earth humans discovering they
have imperialistic space cousins who have so endeared themselves to
aliens everywhere that the universal reaction to discovering a human
world is to kill it with fire.
whatever humans did umpty thousand years ago was enough for aliens to
stomp us back into the stone age. By the era of Stars, Won't You Hide Me?
the aliens have concluded humans don't learn, so they set about wiping
us all out. Doesn't quite succeed although they do their best.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
These sound especially good. An empire trying to kill is is likely to be a great read if we win and take over the thing. I confess that I like to read when we win. Unfortunately, I am not above that.


Regards
Lynn McGuire
2020-01-02 22:12:23 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a
human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened
empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing
tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a
universe of aliens.
Hoyle's Rockets in Ursa Major involves Earth humans discovering they
have imperialistic space cousins who have so endeared themselves to
aliens everywhere that the universal reaction to discovering a human
world is to kill it with fire.
whatever humans did umpty thousand years ago was enough for aliens to
stomp us back into the stone age. By the era of Stars, Won't You Hide Me?
the aliens have concluded humans don't learn, so they set about wiping
us all out. Doesn't quite succeed although they do their best.
Oh gosh, I just read a book with that theme. Thinking ... Reviewing my
784 reviews on Big River, there it is ...

_Fire with Fire_ by Charles E. Gannon
https://www.amazon.com/Fire-Charles-Gannon/dp/1476736324/

Lynn
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-02 22:35:57 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a
human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened
empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing
tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a
universe of aliens.
Hoyle's Rockets in Ursa Major involves Earth humans discovering they
have imperialistic space cousins who have so endeared themselves to
aliens everywhere that the universal reaction to discovering a human
world is to kill it with fire.
whatever humans did umpty thousand years ago was enough for aliens to
stomp us back into the stone age. By the era of Stars, Won't You Hide Me?
the aliens have concluded humans don't learn, so they set about wiping
us all out. Doesn't quite succeed although they do their best.
Oh gosh, I just read a book with that theme. Thinking ... Reviewing my
784 reviews on Big River, there it is ...
_Fire with Fire_ by Charles E. Gannon
https://www.amazon.com/Fire-Charles-Gannon/dp/1476736324/
Lynn
Please exclude my ignorance, what is "Big River"? Is it a sci fi community? Or were you referring to the book?

I checked Google but did not find a reference to anything like that.


And thanks for all the books!


Regards
Lynn McGuire
2020-01-02 22:52:22 UTC
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Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a
human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened
empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing
tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a
universe of aliens.
Hoyle's Rockets in Ursa Major involves Earth humans discovering they
have imperialistic space cousins who have so endeared themselves to
aliens everywhere that the universal reaction to discovering a human
world is to kill it with fire.
whatever humans did umpty thousand years ago was enough for aliens to
stomp us back into the stone age. By the era of Stars, Won't You Hide Me?
the aliens have concluded humans don't learn, so they set about wiping
us all out. Doesn't quite succeed although they do their best.
Oh gosh, I just read a book with that theme. Thinking ... Reviewing my
784 reviews on Big River, there it is ...
_Fire with Fire_ by Charles E. Gannon
https://www.amazon.com/Fire-Charles-Gannon/dp/1476736324/
Lynn
Please exclude my ignorance, what is "Big River"? Is it a sci fi community? Or were you referring to the book?
I checked Google but did not find a reference to anything like that.
And thanks for all the books!
Regards
Sorry for the inside joke. Big River == www.amazon.com .

Lynn
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-02 21:43:44 UTC
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Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
Regards
_Contact with Chaos (Freehold Series)_ by Michael Williamson
https://www.amazon.com/Contact-Chaos-Freehold-Michael-Williamson/dp/1439133735/
Lynn
Thanks!
Lynn McGuire
2020-01-02 21:58:11 UTC
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Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
Regards
_Revelation: Demons Of The Past Paperback_ by Ryk E. Spoor
https://www.amazon.com/Revelation-Demons-Past-Ryk-Spoor/dp/1987625196

Lynn
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-02 23:52:14 UTC
Reply
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Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
Regards
All,

I am also interested in cases where humans interact or come in contact with alien empires - especially if we kick their butts after meeting/interacting.

I have gotten some of those already. Thanks.




Regards
Scott Lurndal
2020-01-03 15:20:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a hum=
an empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire=
or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in whi=
ch the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of ali=
ens.
=20
=20
=20
Regards
All,
I am also interested in cases where humans interact or come in contact with=
alien empires - especially if we kick their butts after meeting/interactin=
g.
Foster's _With Friends Like These_.
Lynn McGuire
2020-01-03 19:46:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a hum=
an empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire=
or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in whi=
ch the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of ali=
ens.
=20
=20
=20
Regards
All,
I am also interested in cases where humans interact or come in contact with=
alien empires - especially if we kick their butts after meeting/interactin=
g.
Foster's _With Friends Like These_.
Second best scifi short story of all time.
https://www.amazon.com/Friends-Like-These-Alan-Foster/dp/0345323904

Lynn
Peter Trei
2020-01-04 17:16:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Scott Lurndal
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a hum=
an empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire=
or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in whi=
ch the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of ali=
ens.
=20
=20
=20
Regards
All,
I am also interested in cases where humans interact or come in contact with=
alien empires - especially if we kick their butts after meeting/interactin=
g.
Foster's _With Friends Like These_.
Second best scifi short story of all time.
https://www.amazon.com/Friends-Like-These-Alan-Foster/dp/0345323904
Campbell loved this sort of stuff. Everyone does; it gives us warm fuzzies.

Over on reddit, there's an entire subreddit devoted to 'HFY'
('Humanity: F*ck Yeah!') fiction. Some is good. A lot is dire. But there's
enough good stuff that I keep checking it out.
https://old.reddit.com/r/HFY/ (you don't need an account to read)

If you take a look, the sidebar has a lot of curated material with a better
Sturgeon coefficient.

pt
Robert Carnegie
2020-01-03 00:01:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
Star Trek, Star Wars, Sector General...
Trek and SG have the military service be
mostly human. QED.
Quadibloc
2020-01-04 17:20:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
Star Trek, Star Wars, Sector General...
Trek and SG have the military service be
mostly human. QED.
While Star Trek is mainly concerned with a spaceship from Earth, the movie
series Star Wars definitely depicts a universe in which there are aliens, but
humans are dominant. In Star Trek, the aliens aren't dominated by humans;
they're equal and offscreen.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2020-01-04 18:02:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
Star Trek, Star Wars, Sector General...
Trek and SG have the military service be
mostly human. QED.
While Star Trek is mainly concerned with a spaceship from Earth, the movie
series Star Wars definitely depicts a universe in which there are aliens, but
humans are dominant. In Star Trek, the aliens aren't dominated by humans;
they're equal and offscreen.
The Romulans seem pretty dominated. The Klingons don't win. The Borg
on the other hand . . .
Post by Quadibloc
John Savard
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-06 09:48:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
Star Trek, Star Wars, Sector General...
Trek and SG have the military service be
mostly human. QED.
While Star Trek is mainly concerned with a spaceship from Earth, the movie
series Star Wars definitely depicts a universe in which there are aliens, but
humans are dominant. In Star Trek, the aliens aren't dominated by humans;
they're equal and offscreen.
John Savard
I liked the movies based on TNG. I didn't like any based on TOE.



Regards
h***@gmail.com
2020-01-03 01:06:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?

Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify

The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-03 01:19:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
===
I mean any multi-planet collection of humans into a single political unit.
Those your two recommendations qualify. But I have read them already. Thanks.


Regards
Magewolf
2020-01-03 14:43:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
===
I mean any multi-planet collection of humans into a single political unit.
Those your two recommendations qualify. But I have read them already. Thanks.
Regards
What about The Dragon Never Sleeps by Glen Cook? The Canon Space is a
thousands of years old Human empire where the humans are pretty much
burned out but their system of Guardships is so over powered that it
takes an almost universe shattering event to bring change.

It is one of my favorite books.
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-01-03 16:17:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of
a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an
enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a
good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be
top dogs in a universe of aliens.
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by h***@gmail.com
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
===
I mean any multi-planet collection of humans into a single political unit.
Those your two recommendations qualify. But I have read them already. Thanks.
Regards
What about The Dragon Never Sleeps by Glen Cook? The Canon Space is a
thousands of years old Human empire where the humans are pretty much
burned out but their system of Guardships is so over powered that it
takes an almost universe shattering event to bring change.
The word "Dragon" woke a couple of neurons and reminded me of
Adrienne Martine-Barnes's _The Dragon Rises._ Humans have one
empire (with an Emperor, even), other species have theirs. Just
to make life more interesting, members of a non-human empire ally
with the human main character against a treacherous human
planning a takeover. Some neat space battles. It's also a take
on the Matter of Britain (King Arthur, etc.) It's been out of print
for a while, but Amazon or Abebooks might have it.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-06 09:53:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Magewolf
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
===
I mean any multi-planet collection of humans into a single political unit.
Those your two recommendations qualify. But I have read them already. Thanks.
Regards
What about The Dragon Never Sleeps by Glen Cook? The Canon Space is a
thousands of years old Human empire where the humans are pretty much
burned out but their system of Guardships is so over powered that it
takes an almost universe shattering event to bring change.
It is one of my favorite books.
_The Dragon Never Sleeps_ is one of my favorite sci fi books of all time. I have read it at least five times. But I thought he refused to write a sequel. That book seemed both prequel and sequel rich, but I read that he refused to write either.

Is it really in a series? I would love other books in the same universe, whether or not the connect. Please let me know.



Regards
Titus G
2020-01-03 04:49:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
To begin with the Empire was human but later changed to close to top dog
which could mean those yappy lap dogs who drive every other dog away
with high-pitched barking or it could be a tall dog such as a greyhound.
Although Mote does not qualify, if Friendly Underpants hasn't read it,
then it is obviously the best recommendation he could receive with
regard to the words human and alien.
(I also like Hamilton.)
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-03 05:21:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
To begin with the Empire was human but later changed to close to top dog
which could mean those yappy lap dogs who drive every other dog away
with high-pitched barking or it could be a tall dog such as a greyhound.
Although Mote does not qualify, if Friendly Underpants hasn't read it,
then it is obviously the best recommendation he could receive with
regard to the words human and alien.
(I also like Hamilton.)
======================
I read _The Mote In God's Eye_ a bunch of times and _The Gripping Hand_ twice. Great reads. Thanks for the suggestion.

I found the reference to the empire rather incidental though. And and I did not like that at the end of _A Gripping Hand_ the indirect suggestion that the Moties would likely eat our lunches in the future. Incidentally, I an a rather militant anti-royalist. So although I don't mind books with monarchical systems of government - though I don't by the seeming common belief among sci fi writers that a multi-planet system either can't be properly run as a Democracy or would most likely not be a Democracy - I don't like when they are sympathetically presented.


Regards
Dimensional Traveler
2020-01-03 06:19:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Titus G
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
To begin with the Empire was human but later changed to close to top dog
which could mean those yappy lap dogs who drive every other dog away
with high-pitched barking or it could be a tall dog such as a greyhound.
Although Mote does not qualify, if Friendly Underpants hasn't read it,
then it is obviously the best recommendation he could receive with
regard to the words human and alien.
(I also like Hamilton.)
======================
I read _The Mote In God's Eye_ a bunch of times and _The Gripping Hand_ twice. Great reads. Thanks for the suggestion.
I found the reference to the empire rather incidental though. And and I did not like that at the end of _A Gripping Hand_ the indirect suggestion that the Moties would likely eat our lunches in the future. Incidentally, I an a rather militant anti-royalist. So although I don't mind books with monarchical systems of government - though I don't by the seeming common belief among sci fi writers that a multi-planet system either can't be properly run as a Democracy or would most likely not be a Democracy - I don't like when they are sympathetically presented.
Are you aware of the third Motie book?
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
Titus G
2020-01-03 22:49:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 3/01/20 7:19 pm, Dimensional Traveler wrote:

snip
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Are you aware of the third Motie book?
I am now. Thank you.
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-06 07:54:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Titus G
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
To begin with the Empire was human but later changed to close to top dog
which could mean those yappy lap dogs who drive every other dog away
with high-pitched barking or it could be a tall dog such as a greyhound.
Although Mote does not qualify, if Friendly Underpants hasn't read it,
then it is obviously the best recommendation he could receive with
regard to the words human and alien.
(I also like Hamilton.)
======================
I read _The Mote In God's Eye_ a bunch of times and _The Gripping Hand_ twice. Great reads. Thanks for the suggestion.
I found the reference to the empire rather incidental though. And and I did not like that at the end of _A Gripping Hand_ the indirect suggestion that the Moties would likely eat our lunches in the future. Incidentally, I an a rather militant anti-royalist. So although I don't mind books with monarchical systems of government - though I don't by the seeming common belief among sci fi writers that a multi-planet system either can't be properly run as a Democracy or would most likely not be a Democracy - I don't like when they are sympathetically presented.
Are you aware of the third Motie book?
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
I saw a blurb of the book, but it was not written by Niven. I don't generally like to read books where other writers make entries in the series, and the story like did not seem interesting anyway.
-dsr-
2020-01-06 14:05:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Are you aware of the third Motie book?
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
I saw a blurb of the book, but it was not written by Niven. I don't generally like to read books where other writers make entries in the series, and the story like did not seem interesting anyway.
Ha. In this case, it's rather better than The Gripping Hand, and on a level with
the original.

Don't let arbitrary heuristics stop you from trying things. I avoided Lois
McMaster Bujold for years because a rather annoying fellow kept quoting
Miles Vorkosigan in his .sig and I felt that anything he liked couldn't
be good.


-dsr-
Robert Woodward
2020-01-06 18:39:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by -dsr-
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Are you aware of the third Motie book?
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
I saw a blurb of the book, but it was not written by Niven. I don't
generally like to read books where other writers make entries in the
series, and the story like did not seem interesting anyway.
Ha. In this case, it's rather better than The Gripping Hand, and on a level with
the original.
Don't let arbitrary heuristics stop you from trying things. I avoided Lois
McMaster Bujold for years because a rather annoying fellow kept quoting
Miles Vorkosigan in his .sig and I felt that anything he liked couldn't
be good.
I didn't think I posted enough to be annoying.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
-dsr-
2020-01-07 11:44:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by -dsr-
Don't let arbitrary heuristics stop you from trying things. I avoided Lois
McMaster Bujold for years because a rather annoying fellow kept quoting
Miles Vorkosigan in his .sig and I felt that anything he liked couldn't
be good.
I didn't think I posted enough to be annoying.
As it turns out, this wasn't on Usenet.


-dsr-
m***@sky.com
2020-01-06 19:39:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by -dsr-
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Are you aware of the third Motie book?
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
I saw a blurb of the book, but it was not written by Niven. I don't generally like to read books where other writers make entries in the series, and the story like did not seem interesting anyway.
Ha. In this case, it's rather better than The Gripping Hand, and on a level with
the original.
Don't let arbitrary heuristics stop you from trying things. I avoided Lois
McMaster Bujold for years because a rather annoying fellow kept quoting
Miles Vorkosigan in his .sig and I felt that anything he liked couldn't
be good.
-dsr-
It is occasionally useful to observe that it takes real talent to be wrong _all_ the time.
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-06 21:07:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by -dsr-
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Are you aware of the third Motie book?
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
I saw a blurb of the book, but it was not written by Niven. I don't generally like to read books where other writers make entries in the series, and the story like did not seem interesting anyway.
Ha. In this case, it's rather better than The Gripping Hand, and on a level with
the original.
Don't let arbitrary heuristics stop you from trying things. I avoided Lois
McMaster Bujold for years because a rather annoying fellow kept quoting
Miles Vorkosigan in his .sig and I felt that anything he liked couldn't
be good.
-dsr-
I'll give it a try and will post the bad review here if it is not as good as you say.

Thanks.
Paul S Person
2020-01-06 18:06:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 23:54:51 -0800 (PST), Amicus Brevis
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Titus G
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
To begin with the Empire was human but later changed to close to top dog
which could mean those yappy lap dogs who drive every other dog away
with high-pitched barking or it could be a tall dog such as a greyhound.
Although Mote does not qualify, if Friendly Underpants hasn't read it,
then it is obviously the best recommendation he could receive with
regard to the words human and alien.
(I also like Hamilton.)
======================
I read _The Mote In God's Eye_ a bunch of times and _The Gripping Hand_ twice. Great reads. Thanks for the suggestion.
I found the reference to the empire rather incidental though. And and I did not like that at the end of _A Gripping Hand_ the indirect suggestion that the Moties would likely eat our lunches in the future. Incidentally, I an a rather militant anti-royalist. So although I don't mind books with monarchical systems of government - though I don't by the seeming common belief among sci fi writers that a multi-planet system either can't be properly run as a Democracy or would most likely not be a Democracy - I don't like when they are sympathetically presented.
Are you aware of the third Motie book?
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
I saw a blurb of the book, but it was not written by Niven. I don't generally like to read books where other writers make entries in the series, and the story like did not seem interesting anyway.
Thanks for pointing this out.

It's not written by Jerry Pournelle either.

It's written by "JR Pournelle", and, really, that has to be a new low
in branding.

I mean, most of them have the brand name ("Niven & Pournelle") in big
letters on the cover and then "with <unknown person's name>" in small
print to show the actual author, but, really, "JR Pournelle"?

My policy is also to avoid sequels not written by the original author.
This has nothing to do with quality (since I don't read them, what can
I possibly say about quality?) but simply trying desperately to keep
my book collection safely confined by the /seven large bookshelves/
devoted to it.

And the minor detail that I am now purchasing Kindle books exclusively
(well, almost exclusively) has not changed that approach at all.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Lynn McGuire
2020-01-06 18:29:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 23:54:51 -0800 (PST), Amicus Brevis
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Titus G
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
To begin with the Empire was human but later changed to close to top dog
which could mean those yappy lap dogs who drive every other dog away
with high-pitched barking or it could be a tall dog such as a greyhound.
Although Mote does not qualify, if Friendly Underpants hasn't read it,
then it is obviously the best recommendation he could receive with
regard to the words human and alien.
(I also like Hamilton.)
======================
I read _The Mote In God's Eye_ a bunch of times and _The Gripping Hand_ twice. Great reads. Thanks for the suggestion.
I found the reference to the empire rather incidental though. And and I did not like that at the end of _A Gripping Hand_ the indirect suggestion that the Moties would likely eat our lunches in the future. Incidentally, I an a rather militant anti-royalist. So although I don't mind books with monarchical systems of government - though I don't by the seeming common belief among sci fi writers that a multi-planet system either can't be properly run as a Democracy or would most likely not be a Democracy - I don't like when they are sympathetically presented.
Are you aware of the third Motie book?
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
I saw a blurb of the book, but it was not written by Niven. I don't generally like to read books where other writers make entries in the series, and the story like did not seem interesting anyway.
Thanks for pointing this out.
It's not written by Jerry Pournelle either.
It's written by "JR Pournelle", and, really, that has to be a new low
in branding.
I mean, most of them have the brand name ("Niven & Pournelle") in big
letters on the cover and then "with <unknown person's name>" in small
print to show the actual author, but, really, "JR Pournelle"?
My policy is also to avoid sequels not written by the original author.
This has nothing to do with quality (since I don't read them, what can
I possibly say about quality?) but simply trying desperately to keep
my book collection safely confined by the /seven large bookshelves/
devoted to it.
And the minor detail that I am now purchasing Kindle books exclusively
(well, almost exclusively) has not changed that approach at all.
I have five 72 inch tall by 36 inch wide bookshelves (each with 6
shelves). All double stacked (a row of books in front and a row of
books in back on each shelf). I need a sixth soon.

Lynn
Dimensional Traveler
2020-01-06 21:07:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 23:54:51 -0800 (PST), Amicus Brevis
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Titus G
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context
of a human empire in which aliens also exist.  It need not be an
enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail.
Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or
close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
To begin with the Empire was human but later changed to close to top dog
which could mean those yappy lap dogs who drive every other dog away
with high-pitched barking or it could be a tall dog such as a greyhound.
Although Mote does not qualify, if Friendly Underpants hasn't read it,
then it is obviously the best recommendation he could receive with
regard to the words human and alien.
(I also like Hamilton.)
======================
I read _The Mote In God's Eye_ a bunch of times and _The Gripping
Hand_ twice.   Great reads.  Thanks for the suggestion.
I found the reference to the empire rather incidental though.  And
and I did not like that at the end of _A Gripping Hand_ the
indirect suggestion that the Moties would likely eat our lunches in
the future.  Incidentally, I an a rather militant anti-royalist. So
although I don't mind books with monarchical systems of government
- though I don't by the seeming common belief among sci fi writers
that a multi-planet system either can't be properly run as a
Democracy or would most likely not be a Democracy - I don't like
when they are sympathetically presented.
Are you aware of the third Motie book?
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true.  How else can they
become?"
I saw a blurb of the book, but it was not written by Niven.   I don't
generally like to read books where other writers make entries in the
series, and the story like did not seem interesting anyway.
Thanks for pointing this out.
It's not written by Jerry Pournelle either.
It's written by "JR Pournelle", and, really, that has to be a new low
in branding.
I mean, most of them have the brand name ("Niven & Pournelle") in big
letters on the cover and then "with <unknown person's name>" in small
print to show the actual author, but, really, "JR Pournelle"?
My policy is also to avoid sequels not written by the original author.
This has nothing to do with quality (since I don't read them, what can
I possibly say about quality?) but simply trying desperately to keep
my book collection safely confined by the /seven large bookshelves/
devoted to it.
And the minor detail that I am now purchasing Kindle books exclusively
(well, almost exclusively) has not changed that approach at all.
I have five 72 inch tall by 36 inch wide bookshelves (each with 6
shelves).  All double stacked (a row of books in front and a row of
books in back on each shelf).  I need a sixth soon.
I have catalogued the contents of 36 small moving boxes of books. I
don't know how many more boxes I have that I haven't gotten to yet.
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
Paul S Person
2020-01-07 18:10:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 13:07:28 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Lynn McGuire
I have five 72 inch tall by 36 inch wide bookshelves (each with 6
shelves).  All double stacked (a row of books in front and a row of
books in back on each shelf).  I need a sixth soon.
I have catalogued the contents of 36 small moving boxes of books. I
don't know how many more boxes I have that I haven't gotten to yet.
Are those the 1.5x1x1 (this is in /feet/) boxes? We called them "book
boxes" in the Army. Or in the 70s, whichever. They work really well
for LPs, as you are no doubt aware.

I used to be able to lift and carry those things. But not for a while
now. Something to do with getting older, I suspect.

On another newsgroup, a poster who had finally obtained his PhD was
moving to his new position and, upon packing his book collection,
reported:

Books are evil.

I've packed enough boxes of books to empathize, if not quite to agree.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dimensional Traveler
2020-01-07 20:37:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 13:07:28 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Lynn McGuire
I have five 72 inch tall by 36 inch wide bookshelves (each with 6
shelves).  All double stacked (a row of books in front and a row of
books in back on each shelf).  I need a sixth soon.
I have catalogued the contents of 36 small moving boxes of books. I
don't know how many more boxes I have that I haven't gotten to yet.
Are those the 1.5x1x1 (this is in /feet/) boxes? We called them "book
boxes" in the Army. Or in the 70s, whichever. They work really well
for LPs, as you are no doubt aware.
1.5 Cubic Feet, yup. I got rid of most of my LPs some years ago but
yes, those that I have left are also in one of the same size boxes.
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-06 21:22:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 23:54:51 -0800 (PST), Amicus Brevis
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Titus G
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
To begin with the Empire was human but later changed to close to top dog
which could mean those yappy lap dogs who drive every other dog away
with high-pitched barking or it could be a tall dog such as a greyhound.
Although Mote does not qualify, if Friendly Underpants hasn't read it,
then it is obviously the best recommendation he could receive with
regard to the words human and alien.
(I also like Hamilton.)
======================
I read _The Mote In God's Eye_ a bunch of times and _The Gripping Hand_ twice. Great reads. Thanks for the suggestion.
I found the reference to the empire rather incidental though. And and I did not like that at the end of _A Gripping Hand_ the indirect suggestion that the Moties would likely eat our lunches in the future. Incidentally, I an a rather militant anti-royalist. So although I don't mind books with monarchical systems of government - though I don't by the seeming common belief among sci fi writers that a multi-planet system either can't be properly run as a Democracy or would most likely not be a Democracy - I don't like when they are sympathetically presented.
Are you aware of the third Motie book?
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
I saw a blurb of the book, but it was not written by Niven. I don't generally like to read books where other writers make entries in the series, and the story like did not seem interesting anyway.
Thanks for pointing this out.
It's not written by Jerry Pournelle either.
It's written by "JR Pournelle", and, really, that has to be a new low
in branding.
I mean, most of them have the brand name ("Niven & Pournelle") in big
letters on the cover and then "with <unknown person's name>" in small
print to show the actual author, but, really, "JR Pournelle"?
My policy is also to avoid sequels not written by the original author.
This has nothing to do with quality (since I don't read them, what can
I possibly say about quality?) but simply trying desperately to keep
my book collection safely confined by the /seven large bookshelves/
devoted to it.
And the minor detail that I am now purchasing Kindle books exclusively
(well, almost exclusively) has not changed that approach at all.
I have five 72 inch tall by 36 inch wide bookshelves (each with 6
shelves). All double stacked (a row of books in front and a row of
books in back on each shelf). I need a sixth soon.
Lynn
I gave away all fiction books some years ago and I have slowly built up an e-book collection. When I did that I moved to Mobi books mainly (Epub is fine, but Mobi is better - personal aesthetics). It took me a long time to move to Kindle since first I refused to read books accessible only one company's devices and then to books only accessible where I have Internet contact. Now I can read on any device and can read off line, I am Ok with Kindle. But now I am hooked on audio books. They allow me to listen to books and do other things at the same time - and I can listen to them while I drive.

That is my long winded way of saying that I sympathize with the problem of the book shelves and chose a rather comprehensive solution myself.
Lynn McGuire
2020-01-06 18:31:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 23:54:51 -0800 (PST), Amicus Brevis
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Titus G
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
To begin with the Empire was human but later changed to close to top dog
which could mean those yappy lap dogs who drive every other dog away
with high-pitched barking or it could be a tall dog such as a greyhound.
Although Mote does not qualify, if Friendly Underpants hasn't read it,
then it is obviously the best recommendation he could receive with
regard to the words human and alien.
(I also like Hamilton.)
======================
I read _The Mote In God's Eye_ a bunch of times and _The Gripping Hand_ twice. Great reads. Thanks for the suggestion.
I found the reference to the empire rather incidental though. And and I did not like that at the end of _A Gripping Hand_ the indirect suggestion that the Moties would likely eat our lunches in the future. Incidentally, I an a rather militant anti-royalist. So although I don't mind books with monarchical systems of government - though I don't by the seeming common belief among sci fi writers that a multi-planet system either can't be properly run as a Democracy or would most likely not be a Democracy - I don't like when they are sympathetically presented.
Are you aware of the third Motie book?
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
I saw a blurb of the book, but it was not written by Niven. I don't generally like to read books where other writers make entries in the series, and the story like did not seem interesting anyway.
Thanks for pointing this out.
It's not written by Jerry Pournelle either.
It's written by "JR Pournelle", and, really, that has to be a new low
in branding.
I mean, most of them have the brand name ("Niven & Pournelle") in big
letters on the cover and then "with <unknown person's name>" in small
print to show the actual author, but, really, "JR Pournelle"?
My policy is also to avoid sequels not written by the original author.
This has nothing to do with quality (since I don't read them, what can
I possibly say about quality?) but simply trying desperately to keep
my book collection safely confined by the /seven large bookshelves/
devoted to it.
And the minor detail that I am now purchasing Kindle books exclusively
(well, almost exclusively) has not changed that approach at all.
JR Pournelle is Jerry Pournelle's daughter. He was very proud when she
released the book several years ago.

Lynn
Paul S Person
2020-01-07 18:12:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 12:31:02 -0600, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 23:54:51 -0800 (PST), Amicus Brevis
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Titus G
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
To begin with the Empire was human but later changed to close to top dog
which could mean those yappy lap dogs who drive every other dog away
with high-pitched barking or it could be a tall dog such as a greyhound.
Although Mote does not qualify, if Friendly Underpants hasn't read it,
then it is obviously the best recommendation he could receive with
regard to the words human and alien.
(I also like Hamilton.)
======================
I read _The Mote In God's Eye_ a bunch of times and _The Gripping Hand_ twice. Great reads. Thanks for the suggestion.
I found the reference to the empire rather incidental though. And and I did not like that at the end of _A Gripping Hand_ the indirect suggestion that the Moties would likely eat our lunches in the future. Incidentally, I an a rather militant anti-royalist. So although I don't mind books with monarchical systems of government - though I don't by the seeming common belief among sci fi writers that a multi-planet system either can't be properly run as a Democracy or would most likely not be a Democracy - I don't like when they are sympathetically presented.
Are you aware of the third Motie book?
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
I saw a blurb of the book, but it was not written by Niven. I don't generally like to read books where other writers make entries in the series, and the story like did not seem interesting anyway.
Thanks for pointing this out.
It's not written by Jerry Pournelle either.
It's written by "JR Pournelle", and, really, that has to be a new low
in branding.
I mean, most of them have the brand name ("Niven & Pournelle") in big
letters on the cover and then "with <unknown person's name>" in small
print to show the actual author, but, really, "JR Pournelle"?
My policy is also to avoid sequels not written by the original author.
This has nothing to do with quality (since I don't read them, what can
I possibly say about quality?) but simply trying desperately to keep
my book collection safely confined by the /seven large bookshelves/
devoted to it.
And the minor detail that I am now purchasing Kindle books exclusively
(well, almost exclusively) has not changed that approach at all.
JR Pournelle is Jerry Pournelle's daughter. He was very proud when she
released the book several years ago.
I'm sure he was, and, no doubt, rightly so.

But it is still false advertising, from my perspective.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Juho Julkunen
2020-01-08 01:28:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>, psperson1
@ix.netcom.invalid says...
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 12:31:02 -0600, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
JR Pournelle is Jerry Pournelle's daughter. He was very proud when she
released the book several years ago.
I'm sure he was, and, no doubt, rightly so.
But it is still false advertising, from my perspective.
On account of you not being very perceptive?
--
Juho Julkunen
James Nicoll
2020-01-06 19:02:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
It's not written by Jerry Pournelle either.
It's written by "JR Pournelle", and, really, that has to be a new low
in branding.
Why? That's the author's name.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-06 21:23:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
It's not written by Jerry Pournelle either.
It's written by "JR Pournelle", and, really, that has to be a new low
in branding.
Why? That's the author's name.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
When it would create confusion, it is a bit more than just the author's name. It is deceptive branding.


Regards
Robert Woodward
2020-01-07 05:48:28 UTC
Reply
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
It's not written by Jerry Pournelle either.
It's written by "JR Pournelle", and, really, that has to be a new low
in branding.
Why? That's the author's name.
For that matter, using initials is almost traditional for female SF
authors. Also, she might have wanted to distinguish fiction writing from
her professional publications.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Paul S Person
2020-01-07 18:16:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 06 Jan 2020 21:48:28 -0800, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
It's not written by Jerry Pournelle either.
It's written by "JR Pournelle", and, really, that has to be a new low
in branding.
Why? That's the author's name.
For that matter, using initials is almost traditional for female SF
authors. Also, she might have wanted to distinguish fiction writing from
her professional publications.
I actually have no problem with her writing fiction and using her
name. But, really, as part of an existing series with the same last
name as one of the original authors? There /is/ such a thing as
prudence.

Then again, I suppose the George Eliot solution is no longer in style.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2020-01-07 18:35:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 06 Jan 2020 21:48:28 -0800, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
It's not written by Jerry Pournelle either.
It's written by "JR Pournelle", and, really, that has to be a new low
in branding.
Why? That's the author's name.
For that matter, using initials is almost traditional for female SF
authors. Also, she might have wanted to distinguish fiction writing from
her professional publications.
I actually have no problem with her writing fiction and using her
name. But, really, as part of an existing series with the same last
name as one of the original authors? There /is/ such a thing as
prudence.
She should have been avoided being the daughter of Jerry Pournelle, you say?

Cheers - Jaimie
--
boy, n.
1. Noise with dirt on it.
James Nicoll
2020-01-07 19:24:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 06 Jan 2020 21:48:28 -0800, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
It's not written by Jerry Pournelle either.
It's written by "JR Pournelle", and, really, that has to be a new low
in branding.
Why? That's the author's name.
For that matter, using initials is almost traditional for female SF
authors. Also, she might have wanted to distinguish fiction writing from
her professional publications.
I actually have no problem with her writing fiction and using her
name. But, really, as part of an existing series with the same last
name as one of the original authors? There /is/ such a thing as
prudence.
IT'S HER SURNAME. Is she supposed to change her name for the benefit
of careless readers?
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Dimensional Traveler
2020-01-07 20:40:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 06 Jan 2020 21:48:28 -0800, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
It's not written by Jerry Pournelle either.
It's written by "JR Pournelle", and, really, that has to be a new low
in branding.
Why? That's the author's name.
For that matter, using initials is almost traditional for female SF
authors. Also, she might have wanted to distinguish fiction writing from
her professional publications.
I actually have no problem with her writing fiction and using her
name. But, really, as part of an existing series with the same last
name as one of the original authors? There /is/ such a thing as
prudence.
IT'S HER SURNAME. Is she supposed to change her name for the benefit
of careless readers?
And its becoming a tradition for second generation writers (or writer
wannabes) to "continue" their parents' book series. Herbert, Tolkien,
now Pournelle. I'm sure there are some others I'm blanking on ATM.
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
Moriarty
2020-01-07 20:47:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 06 Jan 2020 21:48:28 -0800, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
It's not written by Jerry Pournelle either.
It's written by "JR Pournelle", and, really, that has to be a new low
in branding.
Why? That's the author's name.
For that matter, using initials is almost traditional for female SF
authors. Also, she might have wanted to distinguish fiction writing from
her professional publications.
I actually have no problem with her writing fiction and using her
name. But, really, as part of an existing series with the same last
name as one of the original authors? There /is/ such a thing as
prudence.
IT'S HER SURNAME. Is she supposed to change her name for the benefit
of careless readers?
And its becoming a tradition for second generation writers (or writer
wannabes) to "continue" their parents' book series. Herbert, Tolkien,
now Pournelle. I'm sure there are some others I'm blanking on ATM.
That doesn't really characterise what Christopher Tolkien did.

-Moriarty
Dimensional Traveler
2020-01-07 22:44:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Moriarty
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 06 Jan 2020 21:48:28 -0800, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
It's not written by Jerry Pournelle either.
It's written by "JR Pournelle", and, really, that has to be a new low
in branding.
Why? That's the author's name.
For that matter, using initials is almost traditional for female SF
authors. Also, she might have wanted to distinguish fiction writing from
her professional publications.
I actually have no problem with her writing fiction and using her
name. But, really, as part of an existing series with the same last
name as one of the original authors? There /is/ such a thing as
prudence.
IT'S HER SURNAME. Is she supposed to change her name for the benefit
of careless readers?
And its becoming a tradition for second generation writers (or writer
wannabes) to "continue" their parents' book series. Herbert, Tolkien,
now Pournelle. I'm sure there are some others I'm blanking on ATM.
That doesn't really characterise what Christopher Tolkien did.
That is an example that may be stretching a bit I admit but he did put a
lot of work into publishing more Middle-Earth material.
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
James Nicoll
2020-01-07 21:10:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 06 Jan 2020 21:48:28 -0800, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
It's not written by Jerry Pournelle either.
It's written by "JR Pournelle", and, really, that has to be a new low
in branding.
Why? That's the author's name.
For that matter, using initials is almost traditional for female SF
authors. Also, she might have wanted to distinguish fiction writing from
her professional publications.
I actually have no problem with her writing fiction and using her
name. But, really, as part of an existing series with the same last
name as one of the original authors? There /is/ such a thing as
prudence.
IT'S HER SURNAME. Is she supposed to change her name for the benefit
of careless readers?
And its becoming a tradition for second generation writers (or writer
wannabes) to "continue" their parents' book series. Herbert, Tolkien,
now Pournelle. I'm sure there are some others I'm blanking on ATM.
McCaffrey
Leiber
Resnick

But King's kid uses the name Joe Hill, a tremendous trial for those of us easily
earwormed by old timey labour songs.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Paul S Person
2020-01-08 17:48:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 7 Jan 2020 12:40:28 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 06 Jan 2020 21:48:28 -0800, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
It's not written by Jerry Pournelle either.
It's written by "JR Pournelle", and, really, that has to be a new low
in branding.
Why? That's the author's name.
For that matter, using initials is almost traditional for female SF
authors. Also, she might have wanted to distinguish fiction writing from
her professional publications.
I actually have no problem with her writing fiction and using her
name. But, really, as part of an existing series with the same last
name as one of the original authors? There /is/ such a thing as
prudence.
IT'S HER SURNAME. Is she supposed to change her name for the benefit
of careless readers?
And its becoming a tradition for second generation writers (or writer
wannabes) to "continue" their parents' book series. Herbert, Tolkien,
now Pournelle. I'm sure there are some others I'm blanking on ATM.
I never read the "continuation" Herberts, either.

But I also never had a problem telling who the author was -- or,
rather, was not.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Robert Carnegie
2020-01-07 21:24:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 06 Jan 2020 21:48:28 -0800, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
It's not written by Jerry Pournelle either.
It's written by "JR Pournelle", and, really, that has to be a new low
in branding.
Why? That's the author's name.
For that matter, using initials is almost traditional for female SF
authors. Also, she might have wanted to distinguish fiction writing from
her professional publications.
I actually have no problem with her writing fiction and using her
name. But, really, as part of an existing series with the same last
name as one of the original authors? There /is/ such a thing as
prudence.
IT'S HER SURNAME. Is she supposed to change her name for the benefit
of careless readers?
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
This is interesting. I suspect that the deceptive branding was perpetrated with precisely these kinds of defenses in mind. It would need to have some cover if it could be used at all.
Regards
Look, if they wanted to pass her off
as JERRY POURNELLE then it would just say
JERRY POURNELLE on the cover, and then,
much much much smaller, "with".
Paul S Person
2020-01-08 17:49:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 7 Jan 2020 13:24:51 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 06 Jan 2020 21:48:28 -0800, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
It's not written by Jerry Pournelle either.
It's written by "JR Pournelle", and, really, that has to be a new low
in branding.
Why? That's the author's name.
For that matter, using initials is almost traditional for female SF
authors. Also, she might have wanted to distinguish fiction writing from
her professional publications.
I actually have no problem with her writing fiction and using her
name. But, really, as part of an existing series with the same last
name as one of the original authors? There /is/ such a thing as
prudence.
IT'S HER SURNAME. Is she supposed to change her name for the benefit
of careless readers?
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
This is interesting. I suspect that the deceptive branding was perpetrated with precisely these kinds of defenses in mind. It would need to have some cover if it could be used at all.
Regards
Look, if they wanted to pass her off
as JERRY POURNELLE then it would just say
JERRY POURNELLE on the cover, and then,
much much much smaller, "with".
But "JR Pournelle" is /much/ more subtle.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Joe Bernstein
2020-01-07 22:06:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
IT'S HER SURNAME. Is she supposed to change her name for the benefit
of careless readers?
This is interesting. I suspect that the deceptive branding was
perpetrated with precisely these kinds of defenses in mind. It would
need to have some cover if it could be used at all.
You know, psychologists would have a field day with that paragraph.

The obstinacy of the people who insult the daughter of one of the
original writers for having the same surname as her father has had
the unfortunate side effect of reminding me that I read her book at
some point - but neither it, nor its two predecessors, none of them
is in the current state of my book log. So I get to trek out to the
suburban library that still has her book - oops, no I don't, they
don't have it any more. Now I get to take a ferry to the island
library that still has her book.

Some impressive scam, that the book isn't within ten miles of a major
city less than ten years later. Obviously using your own surname
isn't the wonderful criminal M.O. it's cracked up to be.

Sheesh.

-- JLB
Robert Carnegie
2020-01-07 23:41:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by James Nicoll
IT'S HER SURNAME. Is she supposed to change her name for the benefit
of careless readers?
This is interesting. I suspect that the deceptive branding was
perpetrated with precisely these kinds of defenses in mind. It would
need to have some cover if it could be used at all.
You know, psychologists would have a field day with that paragraph.
The obstinacy of the people who insult the daughter of one of the
original writers for having the same surname as her father has had
the unfortunate side effect of reminding me that I read her book at
some point - but neither it, nor its two predecessors, none of them
is in the current state of my book log. So I get to trek out to the
suburban library that still has her book - oops, no I don't, they
don't have it any more. Now I get to take a ferry to the island
library that still has her book.
Some impressive scam, that the book isn't within ten miles of a major
city less than ten years later. Obviously using your own surname
isn't the wonderful criminal M.O. it's cracked up to be.
Sheesh.
It's just that writing religious fantasy under
the name "Dan Brown" was a much much better scam. :-)

(And that was already clear ten years ago, but
never mind.)

Actually, would her name be Pournelle if not for
patriarchalism? ;-)
Titus G
2020-01-08 02:35:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by James Nicoll
IT'S HER SURNAME. Is she supposed to change her name for the
benefit of careless readers?
This is interesting. I suspect that the deceptive branding was
perpetrated with precisely these kinds of defenses in mind. It
would need to have some cover if it could be used at all.
You know, psychologists would have a field day with that
paragraph.
snip
Actually, would her name be Pournelle if not for patriarchalism? ;-)
Actually, would her father's name be Pournelle if not for
Patriarchalism? :-)
Even if they had both been Smiths, I suspect those suspecting them of
skullduggery would still be suspicious. Perhaps under intensive
drug-assisted questioning, J E P might admit to naming his new born
daughter J F P with future marketing in mind. Alas, it will never be known.
Paul S Person
2020-01-08 17:51:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 7 Jan 2020 22:06:29 -0000 (UTC), Joe Bernstein
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by James Nicoll
IT'S HER SURNAME. Is she supposed to change her name for the benefit
of careless readers?
This is interesting. I suspect that the deceptive branding was
perpetrated with precisely these kinds of defenses in mind. It would
need to have some cover if it could be used at all.
You know, psychologists would have a field day with that paragraph.
The obstinacy of the people who insult the daughter of one of the
original writers for having the same surname as her father has had
the unfortunate side effect of reminding me that I read her book at
some point - but neither it, nor its two predecessors, none of them
is in the current state of my book log. So I get to trek out to the
suburban library that still has her book - oops, no I don't, they
don't have it any more. Now I get to take a ferry to the island
library that still has her book.
She isn't being insulted at all.

This can be attributed /entirely/ to the Marketing Dept.

Just one more reason they can expect to spend eternity in a very hot
climate.
Post by Joe Bernstein
Some impressive scam, that the book isn't within ten miles of a major
city less than ten years later. Obviously using your own surname
isn't the wonderful criminal M.O. it's cracked up to be.
It's readily available on Amazon.

It's even on Kindle.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Paul S Person
2020-01-08 17:46:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 06 Jan 2020 21:48:28 -0800, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
It's not written by Jerry Pournelle either.
It's written by "JR Pournelle", and, really, that has to be a new low
in branding.
Why? That's the author's name.
For that matter, using initials is almost traditional for female SF
authors. Also, she might have wanted to distinguish fiction writing from
her professional publications.
I actually have no problem with her writing fiction and using her
name. But, really, as part of an existing series with the same last
name as one of the original authors? There /is/ such a thing as
prudence.
IT'S HER SURNAME. Is she supposed to change her name for the benefit
of careless readers?
The problem isn't "careless readers". Nor is it her name.

The problem is /deceptive advertising/. Had they used her first
/name/, for example, the situation would be much clearer -- and, I
suspect, the sales much less.

At least the Millenium series used an author with a different name.

Who made it clear that he wasn't going to continue the original
characterizations because they didn't make sense to him.

I don't read such books. I /did/ see the last Millenium film, but it
looked to me like a reboot (with a different back story) into a
technothriller having very little in common with the original.

If you are going to point out that it /starts/ very much like the
original, well, so did the first /Mission:Impossible/ movie -- which
also then turned into Just Another Technothriller.

Ironically, I have enjoyed every James Bond novel the estate has been
inspired to commission/authorize. I even enjoyed the film adaptations,
something I generally do not even recognize as books.

But Bond is an exception in many ways. I might even go see the next
one in the theater -- and its been a /long/ time since I went to the
theater to see a movie. Any movie. Red Box is /very/ convenient.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Scott Lurndal
2020-01-08 17:52:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
If you are going to point out that it /starts/ very much like the
original, well, so did the first /Mission:Impossible/ movie -- which
also then turned into Just Another Technothriller.
Ha! The first movie lost my approval when they made Jim Phelps the
villian. The rest have been uninteresting cruise vehicles.

-dsr-
2020-01-07 11:47:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 23:54:51 -0800 (PST), Amicus Brevis
Post by Amicus Brevis
I saw a blurb of the book, but it was not written by Niven. I don't generally like to read books where other writers make entries in the series, and the story like did not seem interesting anyway.
Thanks for pointing this out.
It's not written by Jerry Pournelle either.
It's written by "JR Pournelle", and, really, that has to be a new low
in branding.
I mean, most of them have the brand name ("Niven & Pournelle") in big
letters on the cover and then "with <unknown person's name>" in small
print to show the actual author, but, really, "JR Pournelle"?
Dr. J.R. (Jennifer) Pournelle, PhD, is an archaeologist and anthropologist
best known for reconstructing landscapes surrounding ancient cities. A
Research Fellow in the University of South Carolina's Environment
and Sustainability Program and Rule of Law Collaborative, and past
Mesopotamian Fellow of the American School of Oriental Research,
her work in Turkey, Iraq, and the Caucasus has been featured by the
''National Science Foundation'', in ''The New York Times'' and ''Science''
magazine, and on ''The Discovery Channel'' and ''National Geographic
Television''. In a former life, she received numerous decorations for
service as a United States Army intelligence officer and arms control
negotiator, and directed reconstruction work in Iraq as a civilian. She
is the author of "Outies", and the 2010 recipient of the South Carolina
Poetry Initiative Book Prize, for ''Excavations, A City Cycle'', released
by the University of South Carolina Press in October, 2011.

The daughter of SF writer Jerry E. Pournelle, the younger Pournelle
engages similar themes (war and its aftermath, environmental constraints,
aliens encounters), but with a very different point of view and
writing style. She summarizes their differences thusly: "We both believe
profoundly in the individual right to be left the hell alone. But we also
disagree profoundly about who it is that's most likely to mess with that
right, and fundamentally about the best way to stop it happening."

from http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/note.cgi?Author+155595

-dsr-
Johnny1A
2020-01-06 07:19:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Titus G
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
To begin with the Empire was human but later changed to close to top dog
which could mean those yappy lap dogs who drive every other dog away
with high-pitched barking or it could be a tall dog such as a greyhound.
Although Mote does not qualify, if Friendly Underpants hasn't read it,
then it is obviously the best recommendation he could receive with
regard to the words human and alien.
(I also like Hamilton.)
======================
I read _The Mote In God's Eye_ a bunch of times and _The Gripping Hand_ twice. Great reads. Thanks for the suggestion.
I found the reference to the empire rather incidental though. And and I did not like that at the end of _A Gripping Hand_ the indirect suggestion that the Moties would likely eat our lunches in the future. Incidentally, I an a rather militant anti-royalist. So although I don't mind books with monarchical systems of government - though I don't by the seeming common belief among sci fi writers that a multi-planet system either can't be properly run as a Democracy or would most likely not be a Democracy - I don't like when they are sympathetically presented.
Regards
The problem with interstellar democracy (or interstellar government in general) is to some degree sheer scale. It's a problem with any system, but democracy has greater trouble with it because of the necessity for either direct voting or representation.

If an interstellar polity has 100 worlds in it, even if it's just one representative to a world that's a body the size of the U.S. Senate, and one representative from an entire world isn't likely to be all that representative.

But a 100-world polity is trivial on a galactic scale. What happens when it's 10,000 worlds? 100,000 worlds? Millions?

Imagine if every world is Asimov's galactic empire has just delegate to the central parliament. That's _25 million legislators_. A legislative body the size of a modest nation. The legislature would need its own legislature.

Even if you cut it down to one rep per, say, 1000 worlds, the galactic empire still needs 25,000 people in its legislature. How meaningful is 'representation' when its just one men from 1000 _worlds_?

As I said, it's not just democracy that has the problem on an interstellar level, it's just hits harder and faster with democracy.
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-06 07:52:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Titus G
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
To begin with the Empire was human but later changed to close to top dog
which could mean those yappy lap dogs who drive every other dog away
with high-pitched barking or it could be a tall dog such as a greyhound.
Although Mote does not qualify, if Friendly Underpants hasn't read it,
then it is obviously the best recommendation he could receive with
regard to the words human and alien.
(I also like Hamilton.)
======================
I read _The Mote In God's Eye_ a bunch of times and _The Gripping Hand_ twice. Great reads. Thanks for the suggestion.
I found the reference to the empire rather incidental though. And and I did not like that at the end of _A Gripping Hand_ the indirect suggestion that the Moties would likely eat our lunches in the future. Incidentally, I an a rather militant anti-royalist. So although I don't mind books with monarchical systems of government - though I don't by the seeming common belief among sci fi writers that a multi-planet system either can't be properly run as a Democracy or would most likely not be a Democracy - I don't like when they are sympathetically presented.
Regards
The problem with interstellar democracy (or interstellar government in general) is to some degree sheer scale. It's a problem with any system, but democracy has greater trouble with it because of the necessity for either direct voting or representation.
If an interstellar polity has 100 worlds in it, even if it's just one representative to a world that's a body the size of the U.S. Senate, and one representative from an entire world isn't likely to be all that representative.
But a 100-world polity is trivial on a galactic scale. What happens when it's 10,000 worlds? 100,000 worlds? Millions?
Imagine if every world is Asimov's galactic empire has just delegate to the central parliament. That's _25 million legislators_. A legislative body the size of a modest nation. The legislature would need its own legislature.
Even if you cut it down to one rep per, say, 1000 worlds, the galactic empire still needs 25,000 people in its legislature. How meaningful is 'representation' when its just one men from 1000 _worlds_?
As I said, it's not just democracy that has the problem on an interstellar level, it's just hits harder and faster with democracy.
An effective government of a million worlds is really unimaginable. It is hard to see how any form of government that we know about today could work. But the assumption of monarchy is applied in situations of as few as five worlds almost routinely. Certainly way, way fewer than one million.

A democracy need not be as flat as ours (purportedly is). Not everyone needs to vote for the head of state in order to have a Democracy. Although we view our system as one in which everyone gets to vote for the president, they don't. For example a hierarchical system of 16 units as only 8 levels. That is not very deep. Some companies have as many levels. So you can imagine hierarchical system of worlds where people elect the leaders of a number of worlds and the people on those worlds elect the leaders of a group above them and so on, until a final 16 select the head of state. It would be unworkable for a million worlds, but could work up to maybe one thousand worlds.

Anyway, I don't think that the number of worlds is the key. The key is the imagined system of communication and transportation. If that is largely instantaneous, a democracy of up to 1,000 worlds is imaginable, and it is a minority of the novels I have read in which there are more than 1000 occupied worlds in the society. Yet most of them are monarchies.
Johnny1A
2020-01-07 18:26:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Titus G
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
To begin with the Empire was human but later changed to close to top dog
which could mean those yappy lap dogs who drive every other dog away
with high-pitched barking or it could be a tall dog such as a greyhound.
Although Mote does not qualify, if Friendly Underpants hasn't read it,
then it is obviously the best recommendation he could receive with
regard to the words human and alien.
(I also like Hamilton.)
======================
I read _The Mote In God's Eye_ a bunch of times and _The Gripping Hand_ twice. Great reads. Thanks for the suggestion.
I found the reference to the empire rather incidental though. And and I did not like that at the end of _A Gripping Hand_ the indirect suggestion that the Moties would likely eat our lunches in the future. Incidentally, I an a rather militant anti-royalist. So although I don't mind books with monarchical systems of government - though I don't by the seeming common belief among sci fi writers that a multi-planet system either can't be properly run as a Democracy or would most likely not be a Democracy - I don't like when they are sympathetically presented.
Regards
The problem with interstellar democracy (or interstellar government in general) is to some degree sheer scale. It's a problem with any system, but democracy has greater trouble with it because of the necessity for either direct voting or representation.
If an interstellar polity has 100 worlds in it, even if it's just one representative to a world that's a body the size of the U.S. Senate, and one representative from an entire world isn't likely to be all that representative.
But a 100-world polity is trivial on a galactic scale. What happens when it's 10,000 worlds? 100,000 worlds? Millions?
Imagine if every world is Asimov's galactic empire has just delegate to the central parliament. That's _25 million legislators_. A legislative body the size of a modest nation. The legislature would need its own legislature.
Even if you cut it down to one rep per, say, 1000 worlds, the galactic empire still needs 25,000 people in its legislature. How meaningful is 'representation' when its just one men from 1000 _worlds_?
As I said, it's not just democracy that has the problem on an interstellar level, it's just hits harder and faster with democracy.
An effective government of a million worlds is really unimaginable. It is hard to see how any form of government that we know about today could work. But the assumption of monarchy is applied in situations of as few as five worlds almost routinely. Certainly way, way fewer than one million.
A democracy need not be as flat as ours (purportedly is). Not everyone needs to vote for the head of state in order to have a Democracy. Although we view our system as one in which everyone gets to vote for the president, they don't. For example a hierarchical system of 16 units as only 8 levels. That is not very deep. Some companies have as many levels. So you can imagine hierarchical system of worlds where people elect the leaders of a number of worlds and the people on those worlds elect the leaders of a group above them and so on, until a final 16 select the head of state. It would be unworkable for a million worlds, but could work up to maybe one thousand worlds.
Anyway, I don't think that the number of worlds is the key. The key is the imagined system of communication and transportation. If that is largely instantaneous, a democracy of up to 1,000 worlds is imaginable, and it is a minority of the novels I have read in which there are more than 1000 occupied worlds in the society. Yet most of them are monarchies.
In the case of _The Mote In God's Eye_, Niven and Pournelle wrote an interesting essay on the background and assumptions that went into it, called "Builidng the Mote In God's Eye". They discuss the technology, sociology, and politics of the backstory, and Pournelle explains why the Empire of Man is a constitutional monarchy. The reasons are debatable, but they aren't trivial.
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-07 20:32:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Titus G
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
To begin with the Empire was human but later changed to close to top dog
which could mean those yappy lap dogs who drive every other dog away
with high-pitched barking or it could be a tall dog such as a greyhound.
Although Mote does not qualify, if Friendly Underpants hasn't read it,
then it is obviously the best recommendation he could receive with
regard to the words human and alien.
(I also like Hamilton.)
======================
I read _The Mote In God's Eye_ a bunch of times and _The Gripping Hand_ twice. Great reads. Thanks for the suggestion.
I found the reference to the empire rather incidental though. And and I did not like that at the end of _A Gripping Hand_ the indirect suggestion that the Moties would likely eat our lunches in the future. Incidentally, I an a rather militant anti-royalist. So although I don't mind books with monarchical systems of government - though I don't by the seeming common belief among sci fi writers that a multi-planet system either can't be properly run as a Democracy or would most likely not be a Democracy - I don't like when they are sympathetically presented.
Regards
The problem with interstellar democracy (or interstellar government in general) is to some degree sheer scale. It's a problem with any system, but democracy has greater trouble with it because of the necessity for either direct voting or representation.
If an interstellar polity has 100 worlds in it, even if it's just one representative to a world that's a body the size of the U.S. Senate, and one representative from an entire world isn't likely to be all that representative.
But a 100-world polity is trivial on a galactic scale. What happens when it's 10,000 worlds? 100,000 worlds? Millions?
Imagine if every world is Asimov's galactic empire has just delegate to the central parliament. That's _25 million legislators_. A legislative body the size of a modest nation. The legislature would need its own legislature.
Even if you cut it down to one rep per, say, 1000 worlds, the galactic empire still needs 25,000 people in its legislature. How meaningful is 'representation' when its just one men from 1000 _worlds_?
As I said, it's not just democracy that has the problem on an interstellar level, it's just hits harder and faster with democracy.
An effective government of a million worlds is really unimaginable. It is hard to see how any form of government that we know about today could work. But the assumption of monarchy is applied in situations of as few as five worlds almost routinely. Certainly way, way fewer than one million.
A democracy need not be as flat as ours (purportedly is). Not everyone needs to vote for the head of state in order to have a Democracy. Although we view our system as one in which everyone gets to vote for the president, they don't. For example a hierarchical system of 16 units as only 8 levels. That is not very deep. Some companies have as many levels. So you can imagine hierarchical system of worlds where people elect the leaders of a number of worlds and the people on those worlds elect the leaders of a group above them and so on, until a final 16 select the head of state. It would be unworkable for a million worlds, but could work up to maybe one thousand worlds.
Anyway, I don't think that the number of worlds is the key. The key is the imagined system of communication and transportation. If that is largely instantaneous, a democracy of up to 1,000 worlds is imaginable, and it is a minority of the novels I have read in which there are more than 1000 occupied worlds in the society. Yet most of them are monarchies.
In the case of _The Mote In God's Eye_, Niven and Pournelle wrote an interesting essay on the background and assumptions that went into it, called "Builidng the Mote In God's Eye". They discuss the technology, sociology, and politics of the backstory, and Pournelle explains why the Empire of Man is a constitutional monarchy. The reasons are debatable, but they aren't trivial.
Constitutional monarchism can be a form of democracy. It depends entirely on the real power of the monarch. And that depends on the extent to which the monarch has direct control over the organs of violence - the police and military. If its control of these is a formality which has no constitutional way to issue an order which has not in effect a matter of formally transmitting an order of some elected official, it is most likely a democracy.


Regards
Moriarty
2020-01-07 20:46:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Amicus Brevis
A democracy need not be as flat as ours (purportedly is). Not everyone needs to vote for the head of state in order to have a Democracy. Although we view our system as one in which everyone gets to vote for the president, they don't. For example a hierarchical system of 16 units as only 8 levels. That is not very deep. Some companies have as many levels. So you can imagine hierarchical system of worlds where people elect the leaders of a number of worlds and the people on those worlds elect the leaders of a group above them and so on, until a final 16 select the head of state. It would be unworkable for a million worlds, but could work up to maybe one thousand worlds.
Anyway, I don't think that the number of worlds is the key. The key is the imagined system of communication and transportation. If that is largely instantaneous, a democracy of up to 1,000 worlds is imaginable, and it is a minority of the novels I have read in which there are more than 1000 occupied worlds in the society. Yet most of them are monarchies.
In the case of _The Mote In God's Eye_, Niven and Pournelle wrote an interesting essay on the background and assumptions that went into it, called "Builidng the Mote In God's Eye". They discuss the technology, sociology, and politics of the backstory, and Pournelle explains why the Empire of Man is a constitutional monarchy. The reasons are debatable, but they aren't trivial.
Constitutional monarchism can be a form of democracy. It depends entirely on the real power of the monarch. And that depends on the extent to which the monarch has direct control over the organs of violence - the police and military. If its control of these is a formality which has no constitutional way to issue an order which has not in effect a matter of formally transmitting an order of some elected official, it is most likely a democracy.
And there are plenty of real world examples of such.

-Moriarty, living in one right now
Johnny1A
2020-01-07 20:59:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Titus G
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
To begin with the Empire was human but later changed to close to top dog
which could mean those yappy lap dogs who drive every other dog away
with high-pitched barking or it could be a tall dog such as a greyhound.
Although Mote does not qualify, if Friendly Underpants hasn't read it,
then it is obviously the best recommendation he could receive with
regard to the words human and alien.
(I also like Hamilton.)
======================
I read _The Mote In God's Eye_ a bunch of times and _The Gripping Hand_ twice. Great reads. Thanks for the suggestion.
I found the reference to the empire rather incidental though. And and I did not like that at the end of _A Gripping Hand_ the indirect suggestion that the Moties would likely eat our lunches in the future. Incidentally, I an a rather militant anti-royalist. So although I don't mind books with monarchical systems of government - though I don't by the seeming common belief among sci fi writers that a multi-planet system either can't be properly run as a Democracy or would most likely not be a Democracy - I don't like when they are sympathetically presented.
Regards
The problem with interstellar democracy (or interstellar government in general) is to some degree sheer scale. It's a problem with any system, but democracy has greater trouble with it because of the necessity for either direct voting or representation.
If an interstellar polity has 100 worlds in it, even if it's just one representative to a world that's a body the size of the U.S. Senate, and one representative from an entire world isn't likely to be all that representative.
But a 100-world polity is trivial on a galactic scale. What happens when it's 10,000 worlds? 100,000 worlds? Millions?
Imagine if every world is Asimov's galactic empire has just delegate to the central parliament. That's _25 million legislators_. A legislative body the size of a modest nation. The legislature would need its own legislature.
Even if you cut it down to one rep per, say, 1000 worlds, the galactic empire still needs 25,000 people in its legislature. How meaningful is 'representation' when its just one men from 1000 _worlds_?
As I said, it's not just democracy that has the problem on an interstellar level, it's just hits harder and faster with democracy.
An effective government of a million worlds is really unimaginable. It is hard to see how any form of government that we know about today could work. But the assumption of monarchy is applied in situations of as few as five worlds almost routinely. Certainly way, way fewer than one million.
A democracy need not be as flat as ours (purportedly is). Not everyone needs to vote for the head of state in order to have a Democracy. Although we view our system as one in which everyone gets to vote for the president, they don't. For example a hierarchical system of 16 units as only 8 levels. That is not very deep. Some companies have as many levels. So you can imagine hierarchical system of worlds where people elect the leaders of a number of worlds and the people on those worlds elect the leaders of a group above them and so on, until a final 16 select the head of state. It would be unworkable for a million worlds, but could work up to maybe one thousand worlds.
Anyway, I don't think that the number of worlds is the key. The key is the imagined system of communication and transportation. If that is largely instantaneous, a democracy of up to 1,000 worlds is imaginable, and it is a minority of the novels I have read in which there are more than 1000 occupied worlds in the society. Yet most of them are monarchies.
In the case of _The Mote In God's Eye_, Niven and Pournelle wrote an interesting essay on the background and assumptions that went into it, called "Builidng the Mote In God's Eye". They discuss the technology, sociology, and politics of the backstory, and Pournelle explains why the Empire of Man is a constitutional monarchy. The reasons are debatable, but they aren't trivial.
Constitutional monarchism can be a form of democracy. It depends entirely on the real power of the monarch. And that depends on the extent to which the monarch has direct control over the organs of violence - the police and military. If its control of these is a formality which has no constitutional way to issue an order which has not in effect a matter of formally transmitting an order of some elected official, it is most likely a democracy.
Regards
The Empire of Man is somewhere in between. The Emperor _does_ control the Navy and other sources of hard power, but funding for those institutions is dependent on a multichamber parliament. There's a hereditary chamber with real power, and also various elected chambers.

But the franchises is complicated. Some worlds have elected or appointed representation in parliament, others do not. There's a complicated system based on technology level and other factors.

So is the Empire a democracy? Partly. And partly not.
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-07 21:29:52 UTC
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Post by Johnny1A
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Titus G
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
To begin with the Empire was human but later changed to close to top dog
which could mean those yappy lap dogs who drive every other dog away
with high-pitched barking or it could be a tall dog such as a greyhound.
Although Mote does not qualify, if Friendly Underpants hasn't read it,
then it is obviously the best recommendation he could receive with
regard to the words human and alien.
(I also like Hamilton.)
======================
I read _The Mote In God's Eye_ a bunch of times and _The Gripping Hand_ twice. Great reads. Thanks for the suggestion.
I found the reference to the empire rather incidental though. And and I did not like that at the end of _A Gripping Hand_ the indirect suggestion that the Moties would likely eat our lunches in the future. Incidentally, I an a rather militant anti-royalist. So although I don't mind books with monarchical systems of government - though I don't by the seeming common belief among sci fi writers that a multi-planet system either can't be properly run as a Democracy or would most likely not be a Democracy - I don't like when they are sympathetically presented.
Regards
The problem with interstellar democracy (or interstellar government in general) is to some degree sheer scale. It's a problem with any system, but democracy has greater trouble with it because of the necessity for either direct voting or representation.
If an interstellar polity has 100 worlds in it, even if it's just one representative to a world that's a body the size of the U.S. Senate, and one representative from an entire world isn't likely to be all that representative.
But a 100-world polity is trivial on a galactic scale. What happens when it's 10,000 worlds? 100,000 worlds? Millions?
Imagine if every world is Asimov's galactic empire has just delegate to the central parliament. That's _25 million legislators_. A legislative body the size of a modest nation. The legislature would need its own legislature.
Even if you cut it down to one rep per, say, 1000 worlds, the galactic empire still needs 25,000 people in its legislature. How meaningful is 'representation' when its just one men from 1000 _worlds_?
As I said, it's not just democracy that has the problem on an interstellar level, it's just hits harder and faster with democracy.
An effective government of a million worlds is really unimaginable. It is hard to see how any form of government that we know about today could work. But the assumption of monarchy is applied in situations of as few as five worlds almost routinely. Certainly way, way fewer than one million.
A democracy need not be as flat as ours (purportedly is). Not everyone needs to vote for the head of state in order to have a Democracy. Although we view our system as one in which everyone gets to vote for the president, they don't. For example a hierarchical system of 16 units as only 8 levels. That is not very deep. Some companies have as many levels. So you can imagine hierarchical system of worlds where people elect the leaders of a number of worlds and the people on those worlds elect the leaders of a group above them and so on, until a final 16 select the head of state. It would be unworkable for a million worlds, but could work up to maybe one thousand worlds.
Anyway, I don't think that the number of worlds is the key. The key is the imagined system of communication and transportation. If that is largely instantaneous, a democracy of up to 1,000 worlds is imaginable, and it is a minority of the novels I have read in which there are more than 1000 occupied worlds in the society. Yet most of them are monarchies.
In the case of _The Mote In God's Eye_, Niven and Pournelle wrote an interesting essay on the background and assumptions that went into it, called "Builidng the Mote In God's Eye". They discuss the technology, sociology, and politics of the backstory, and Pournelle explains why the Empire of Man is a constitutional monarchy. The reasons are debatable, but they aren't trivial.
Constitutional monarchism can be a form of democracy. It depends entirely on the real power of the monarch. And that depends on the extent to which the monarch has direct control over the organs of violence - the police and military. If its control of these is a formality which has no constitutional way to issue an order which has not in effect a matter of formally transmitting an order of some elected official, it is most likely a democracy.
Regards
The Empire of Man is somewhere in between. The Emperor _does_ control the Navy and other sources of hard power, but funding for those institutions is dependent on a multichamber parliament. There's a hereditary chamber with real power, and also various elected chambers.
But the franchises is complicated. Some worlds have elected or appointed representation in parliament, others do not. There's a complicated system based on technology level and other factors.
So is the Empire a democracy? Partly. And partly not.
Every actual democracy has undemocratic elements. And the region n which different people will have different assessments of whether the government is democratic is quite wide. Given the desirability of democracy for most populations, the incentive for pretend democracies is quite strong. If a system of government has a tendency towards more democracy, I am typically not too concerned with whether it is "pure" at any given point.
J. Clarke
2020-01-07 01:36:02 UTC
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On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 23:19:11 -0800 (PST), Johnny1A
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Titus G
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
To begin with the Empire was human but later changed to close to top dog
which could mean those yappy lap dogs who drive every other dog away
with high-pitched barking or it could be a tall dog such as a greyhound.
Although Mote does not qualify, if Friendly Underpants hasn't read it,
then it is obviously the best recommendation he could receive with
regard to the words human and alien.
(I also like Hamilton.)
======================
I read _The Mote In God's Eye_ a bunch of times and _The Gripping Hand_ twice. Great reads. Thanks for the suggestion.
I found the reference to the empire rather incidental though. And and I did not like that at the end of _A Gripping Hand_ the indirect suggestion that the Moties would likely eat our lunches in the future. Incidentally, I an a rather militant anti-royalist. So although I don't mind books with monarchical systems of government - though I don't by the seeming common belief among sci fi writers that a multi-planet system either can't be properly run as a Democracy or would most likely not be a Democracy - I don't like when they are sympathetically presented.
Regards
The problem with interstellar democracy (or interstellar government in general) is to some degree sheer scale. It's a problem with any system, but democracy has greater trouble with it because of the necessity for either direct voting or representation.
If an interstellar polity has 100 worlds in it, even if it's just one representative to a world that's a body the size of the U.S. Senate, and one representative from an entire world isn't likely to be all that representative.
But a 100-world polity is trivial on a galactic scale. What happens when it's 10,000 worlds? 100,000 worlds? Millions?
Imagine if every world is Asimov's galactic empire has just delegate to the central parliament. That's _25 million legislators_. A legislative body the size of a modest nation. The legislature would need its own legislature.
Even if you cut it down to one rep per, say, 1000 worlds, the galactic empire still needs 25,000 people in its legislature. How meaningful is 'representation' when its just one men from 1000 _worlds_?
As I said, it's not just democracy that has the problem on an interstellar level, it's just hits harder and faster with democracy.
The basic problem with democracy is the same as with any other
committee--it is the only form of life with six or more legs and no
brain.
Johnny1A
2020-01-07 18:21:35 UTC
Reply
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Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 23:19:11 -0800 (PST), Johnny1A
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Titus G
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
To begin with the Empire was human but later changed to close to top dog
which could mean those yappy lap dogs who drive every other dog away
with high-pitched barking or it could be a tall dog such as a greyhound.
Although Mote does not qualify, if Friendly Underpants hasn't read it,
then it is obviously the best recommendation he could receive with
regard to the words human and alien.
(I also like Hamilton.)
======================
I read _The Mote In God's Eye_ a bunch of times and _The Gripping Hand_ twice. Great reads. Thanks for the suggestion.
I found the reference to the empire rather incidental though. And and I did not like that at the end of _A Gripping Hand_ the indirect suggestion that the Moties would likely eat our lunches in the future. Incidentally, I an a rather militant anti-royalist. So although I don't mind books with monarchical systems of government - though I don't by the seeming common belief among sci fi writers that a multi-planet system either can't be properly run as a Democracy or would most likely not be a Democracy - I don't like when they are sympathetically presented.
Regards
The problem with interstellar democracy (or interstellar government in general) is to some degree sheer scale. It's a problem with any system, but democracy has greater trouble with it because of the necessity for either direct voting or representation.
If an interstellar polity has 100 worlds in it, even if it's just one representative to a world that's a body the size of the U.S. Senate, and one representative from an entire world isn't likely to be all that representative.
But a 100-world polity is trivial on a galactic scale. What happens when it's 10,000 worlds? 100,000 worlds? Millions?
Imagine if every world is Asimov's galactic empire has just delegate to the central parliament. That's _25 million legislators_. A legislative body the size of a modest nation. The legislature would need its own legislature.
Even if you cut it down to one rep per, say, 1000 worlds, the galactic empire still needs 25,000 people in its legislature. How meaningful is 'representation' when its just one men from 1000 _worlds_?
As I said, it's not just democracy that has the problem on an interstellar level, it's just hits harder and faster with democracy.
The basic problem with democracy is the same as with any other
committee--it is the only form of life with six or more legs and no
brain.
But it's also a cliché that 'the House has more sense than anyone in it'. Sometimes a group makes worse decisions than an individual, sometimes better. It depends on the kind of decision and the kind of group.

Functional, effective democracies usually do show a pattern: whatever the theory, the executive power usually leads and sets most policy, but does this within the practical limits of what the legislative authority will tolerate. When the legislative tries to lead directly, it usually ends badly, when the executive is unrestrained, it usually ends badly.

So in America the President sets the tone and direction, in the UK the P.M. does, etc. But not limitlessly so.

(Exceptions obviously exist, but they're just that.)

We just saw what can happen when the legislative body attempt to run things directly in the Brexit farce over the last two years in the UK. Whatever you think of Brexit as a policy, the Commons didn't cover themselves in glory over it.
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-07 20:53:47 UTC
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Post by Johnny1A
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 23:19:11 -0800 (PST), Johnny1A
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Titus G
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
To begin with the Empire was human but later changed to close to top dog
which could mean those yappy lap dogs who drive every other dog away
with high-pitched barking or it could be a tall dog such as a greyhound.
Although Mote does not qualify, if Friendly Underpants hasn't read it,
then it is obviously the best recommendation he could receive with
regard to the words human and alien.
(I also like Hamilton.)
======================
I read _The Mote In God's Eye_ a bunch of times and _The Gripping Hand_ twice. Great reads. Thanks for the suggestion.
I found the reference to the empire rather incidental though. And and I did not like that at the end of _A Gripping Hand_ the indirect suggestion that the Moties would likely eat our lunches in the future. Incidentally, I an a rather militant anti-royalist. So although I don't mind books with monarchical systems of government - though I don't by the seeming common belief among sci fi writers that a multi-planet system either can't be properly run as a Democracy or would most likely not be a Democracy - I don't like when they are sympathetically presented.
Regards
The problem with interstellar democracy (or interstellar government in general) is to some degree sheer scale. It's a problem with any system, but democracy has greater trouble with it because of the necessity for either direct voting or representation.
If an interstellar polity has 100 worlds in it, even if it's just one representative to a world that's a body the size of the U.S. Senate, and one representative from an entire world isn't likely to be all that representative.
But a 100-world polity is trivial on a galactic scale. What happens when it's 10,000 worlds? 100,000 worlds? Millions?
Imagine if every world is Asimov's galactic empire has just delegate to the central parliament. That's _25 million legislators_. A legislative body the size of a modest nation. The legislature would need its own legislature.
Even if you cut it down to one rep per, say, 1000 worlds, the galactic empire still needs 25,000 people in its legislature. How meaningful is 'representation' when its just one men from 1000 _worlds_?
As I said, it's not just democracy that has the problem on an interstellar level, it's just hits harder and faster with democracy.
The basic problem with democracy is the same as with any other
committee--it is the only form of life with six or more legs and no
brain.
But it's also a cliché that 'the House has more sense than anyone in it'. Sometimes a group makes worse decisions than an individual, sometimes better. It depends on the kind of decision and the kind of group.
Functional, effective democracies usually do show a pattern: whatever the theory, the executive power usually leads and sets most policy, but does this within the practical limits of what the legislative authority will tolerate. When the legislative tries to lead directly, it usually ends badly, when the executive is unrestrained, it usually ends badly.
So in America the President sets the tone and direction, in the UK the P.M. does, etc. But not limitlessly so.
(Exceptions obviously exist, but they're just that.)
We just saw what can happen when the legislative body attempt to run things directly in the Brexit farce over the last two years in the UK. Whatever you think of Brexit as a policy, the Commons didn't cover themselves in glory over it.
==

I typically do not debate the issue of the efficacy of democratic vs collectivist vs totalitarian forms of government unless I guess a hint that the other guy has formally studied the matter. The resulting debate is likely to be non-productive. But that is not even the main reason I don't debate it. Because it would be debating the wrong question, if the issue at bottom is the desirability of these different systems. Democracy is not desirable mainly for its efficiency.

It is not efficient at all. Its desirability rests on the fact that the people who are most likely to be affected in the consequences of the government's actions and whose resources are leveraged to implement its actions have some say (usually indirectly, the level of indirectness being crucial) in the decision making. The second justification is the kind of society which can or is likely to result from having a particular form of government. This means, of course, that there are reasonable prerequisites before Democracy can flourish. Even well established democracies identify conditions under which they democratically suspend themselves. In countries which have never had democracy, it poses the question as to when and how democracy should be implemented. That is why a democracy needs to have a strong _democractic_ colonization policy once colonization becomes possible. All of this ought to be in the discussion of which system should obtain, but very seldom is.
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-06 09:50:18 UTC
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Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
The Night Dawn went astray, I thought. The start was promising, but it seemed to move further away from the early promise the further it went along.


Regards
Juho Julkunen
2020-01-06 20:58:49 UTC
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Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean?
1 person as a ruler?
Or just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
The Night Dawn went astray, I thought. The start was promising, but it seemed to move further away from the early promise the further it went along.
I thought the same thing. And it certainly did go on and on.
--
Juho Julkunen
Titus G
2020-01-07 03:27:08 UTC
Reply
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Post by Juho Julkunen
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 8:06:55 PM UTC-5,
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the
context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need
not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans
prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are
the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean? 1 person as a ruler? Or
just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
The Night Dawn went astray, I thought. The start was promising, but
it seemed to move further away from the early promise the further
it went along.
I thought the same thing. And it certainly did go on and on.
I enjoyed The Reality Dysfunction despite the genre venturing away from
science fiction into horror and the supernatural. Living habitats and
FTL travel through wormholes are commonplace occurrences but returning
from the dead stretches my credibility. Unfortunately the first half of
the book was better than the second. The introduction of new characters,
(and there were a lot of them), followed a pattern as did the
explanation and descriptions of "scientific" ideas. I struggled to
appreciate the battles in space and at times his scientific explanations
which I am not equipped to critique, were too lengthy. I have yet to
read the next book and probably won't now after comments here but I
thought the stand alone novel, Great North Road was brilliant. I haven't
read any other Hamilton. Any specific suggestions? Thanks.
Moriarty
2020-01-07 04:36:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Juho Julkunen
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 8:06:55 PM UTC-5,
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the
context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need
not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans
prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are
the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean? 1 person as a ruler? Or
just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
The Night Dawn went astray, I thought. The start was promising, but
it seemed to move further away from the early promise the further
it went along.
I thought the same thing. And it certainly did go on and on.
I enjoyed The Reality Dysfunction despite the genre venturing away from
science fiction into horror and the supernatural. Living habitats and
FTL travel through wormholes are commonplace occurrences but returning
from the dead stretches my credibility. Unfortunately the first half of
the book was better than the second. The introduction of new characters,
(and there were a lot of them), followed a pattern as did the
explanation and descriptions of "scientific" ideas. I struggled to
appreciate the battles in space and at times his scientific explanations
which I am not equipped to critique, were too lengthy. I have yet to
read the next book and probably won't now after comments here but I
thought the stand alone novel, Great North Road was brilliant. I haven't
read any other Hamilton. Any specific suggestions? Thanks.
I've recently read "Pandora's Star", the first in a duology, which concludes with "Judas Unchained", which I will probably read soon. It was very, very good. There are a further three books set in the same universe but set (apparently) thousands of years later. I'll probably read them eventually.

-Moriarty
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-07 07:15:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Juho Julkunen
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 8:06:55 PM UTC-5,
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the
context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need
not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans
prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are
the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
When you say Empire what do you mean? 1 person as a ruler? Or
just a large, more or less, politically united body?
Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy might qualify
The Mote In God's Eye could qualify
The Night Dawn went astray, I thought. The start was promising, but
it seemed to move further away from the early promise the further
it went along.
I thought the same thing. And it certainly did go on and on.
I enjoyed The Reality Dysfunction despite the genre venturing away from
science fiction into horror and the supernatural. Living habitats and
FTL travel through wormholes are commonplace occurrences but returning
from the dead stretches my credibility. Unfortunately the first half of
the book was better than the second. The introduction of new characters,
(and there were a lot of them), followed a pattern as did the
explanation and descriptions of "scientific" ideas. I struggled to
appreciate the battles in space and at times his scientific explanations
which I am not equipped to critique, were too lengthy. I have yet to
read the next book and probably won't now after comments here but I
thought the stand alone novel, Great North Road was brilliant. I haven't
read any other Hamilton. Any specific suggestions? Thanks.
Hamilton's two best books the Commonwealth duet. Yes, duet. He was never able to coax a trilogy out of the story. He did go back to that universe and wrote a trilogy in the same universe. But it is a completely different story and not as good.

_Peter F Hamilton - Commonwealth 01 - Pandoras Star_
_Peter F Hamilton - Commonwealth 02 - Judas Unchained_

These two are very good. In fact I put them at the top of my _Read Next_ list yesterday when they were mentioned.




Regards
Johnny1A
2020-01-03 05:01:49 UTC
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Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
Regards
The Crisis of Empire space opera by Roger McBride Allen and David Drake is set in thousands of years from now, in the Pact, which is in fact a human-dominated empire entering its decline phase, with lots of aliens who have status ranging from 'second class citizen' to 'slaves in all but name'. But the Pact isn't totally corrupt, either, it's a mix.

It also has a ruler with my favorite ruling title out of all SF. The title of the ruler of the Pact is, IIRC: "The Hereditary High Secretary to the Pact Council _in absentia_."

The title tells the story of a change from republican to imperial forms in the past of the state.
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-03 05:06:05 UTC
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Post by Johnny1A
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a universe of aliens.
Regards
The Crisis of Empire space opera by Roger McBride Allen and David Drake is set in thousands of years from now, in the Pact, which is in fact a human-dominated empire entering its decline phase, with lots of aliens who have status ranging from 'second class citizen' to 'slaves in all but name'. But the Pact isn't totally corrupt, either, it's a mix.
It also has a ruler with my favorite ruling title out of all SF. The title of the ruler of the Pact is, IIRC: "The Hereditary High Secretary to the Pact Council _in absentia_."
The title tells the story of a change from republican to imperial forms in the past of the state.
=================================================

Call me whimsical, but that title made me decide to try that one first.

Thanks and regards.
Quadibloc
2020-01-04 17:36:58 UTC
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Post by Amicus Brevis
Call me whimsical, but that title made me decide to try that one first.
You reminded me of an old song, from a Jackie Gleason movie...



for that matter, his own orchestra did an instrumental version



I remember one day that I found, discarded in the trash, a copy of "Screen
Stories" - issue #30, I no longer have it, but I recognized the cover on an eBay
listing - it had stories about two American movies that I recognized from the
stills, "Papa's Delicate Condition", the one from which this song came, and "The
Miracle Worker".

While there was an American magazine called "Screen Stories" as well, of this
one I couldn't read the text, this one was the Chinese-language one of that name
from Hong Kong.

John Savard
David Goldfarb
2020-01-03 07:53:22 UTC
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Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a
human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened
empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing
tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a
universe of aliens.
Have you read E.E. Smith's Lensman series? They're the archetype
and pattern for that sort of thing. It's a Civilization rather than
an empire as such, but a galaxy-spanning one. There are lots of
aliens but we mostly concern ourselves with human doings.

(Tip: read in publication order -- _Galactic Patrol_, _Gray
Lensman_, _Second Stage Lensman_, _Children of the Lens_; only
then read the prequel _First Lensman_.)
--
David Goldfarb |"Why must you take everything good and true and
***@gmail.com | honest and wholesome and turn it into a vague
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | Alan Arkin movie reference?" -- MST3K
Amicus Brevis
2020-01-06 07:31:58 UTC
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Post by David Goldfarb
Post by Amicus Brevis
I am trying to find a good story which is written in the context of a
human empire in which aliens also exist. It need not be an enlightened
empire or a story in which the humans prevail. Just a good rousing
tale in which the humans are the top dogs or close to be top dogs in a
universe of aliens.
Have you read E.E. Smith's Lensman series? They're the archetype
and pattern for that sort of thing. It's a Civilization rather than
an empire as such, but a galaxy-spanning one. There are lots of
aliens but we mostly concern ourselves with human doings.
(Tip: read in publication order -- _Galactic Patrol_, _Gray
Lensman_, _Second Stage Lensman_, _Children of the Lens_; only
then read the prequel _First Lensman_.)
--
David Goldfarb |"Why must you take everything good and true and
Yes, thanks. I have read the Lensman series.



Regards
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