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[tor.com] iScience Fiction vs. Fantasy: The Choice Is Clear
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James Nicoll
2019-11-07 14:19:33 UTC
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Science Fiction vs. Fantasy: The Choice Is Clear

https://www.tor.com/2019/11/06/science-fiction-vs-fantasy-the-choice-is-clear/
--
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Quadibloc
2019-11-07 16:20:52 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Science Fiction vs. Fantasy: The Choice Is Clear
https://www.tor.com/2019/11/06/science-fiction-vs-fantasy-the-choice-is-clear/
This essay gives examples of some authors who wrote both works of science
fiction and fantasy, and satirizes an extreme position in favor of science
fiction and against fantasy.

Now, if one _really_ wants to see an author who blurs the boundaries between
science-fiction and fantasy, there's always the Pern novels of Anne McCaffrey,
not mentioned in that piece.

But it's always been known that there are degrees of science-fiction.

Hard science fiction. Soft science fiction (i.e. time travel, FTL). Fantasy
disguised as science fiction (i.e. Star Wars).

The Pern novels... are fantasy that technically qualifies as science fiction,
and as such, are nearly unique, in a category of their own.

What puzzles me about this column, though, is that its _point_ would seem to be
similar to an argument that, since some Westerns have literary merit, we should
make fun of people who only read detective novels, and never read Westerns.

What? Genre fiction exists because different readers happen to prefer adventures
in different types of setting. While broader rather than narrower tastes in this
area are a good thing, it doesn't seem to be the sort of thing to make an issue
about.

On the other hand, if he is criticizing science-fiction fans who unjustly
criticize fantasy fans or writers, instead of just not reading fantasy, that's
another matter.

Fantasy and science fiction, while they each have their own rules and
conventions, of course share an advantage over historical fiction and other
real-world genres that the author is not in a position of having to carefully
research his setting or risk ridicule. I don't think that's enough to make them
the same thing, though - if *that* was the point.

John Savard
Robert Woodward
2019-11-07 18:04:55 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Science Fiction vs. Fantasy: The Choice Is Clear
https://www.tor.com/2019/11/06/science-fiction-vs-fantasy-the-choice-is-clear/
TWO comments removed by the moderator? You must have struck a nerve.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
James Nicoll
2019-11-07 20:41:26 UTC
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Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Science Fiction vs. Fantasy: The Choice Is Clear
https://www.tor.com/2019/11/06/science-fiction-vs-fantasy-the-choice-is-clear/
TWO comments removed by the moderator? You must have struck a nerve.
That does seem to be one of my talents. Although sometimes it's just that someone posted a
duplicate comment...
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Kevrob
2019-11-07 21:12:17 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Science Fiction vs. Fantasy: The Choice Is Clear
https://www.tor.com/2019/11/06/science-fiction-vs-fantasy-the-choice-is-clear/
TWO comments removed by the moderator? You must have struck a nerve.
That does seem to be one of my talents. Although sometimes it's just that someone posted a
duplicate comment...
Using the "Many Worlds Interpretations," all Fantasy, after Harold Shea/
Sprague deCamp, Fletcher Pratt, et al, takes place on _some world_, so
it's all science fiction, right? We just have to nail down interdimensional
travel. Piece of cake! :)

[Or, find the right spells, in which case, it's all fantasy!]

Kevin R
p. pinto
2019-11-08 02:30:45 UTC
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- thank-you, bat durston.
p. pinto
2019-11-08 02:32:30 UTC
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- thank-you, bat durston.
Juho Julkunen
2019-11-10 16:44:33 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Science Fiction vs. Fantasy: The Choice Is Clear
https://www.tor.com/2019/11/06/science-fiction-vs-fantasy-the-choice-is-clear/
TWO comments removed by the moderator? You must have struck a nerve.
That does seem to be one of my talents. Although sometimes it's just that someone posted a
duplicate comment...
Which indeed appears to have been the case here.

Incidentally, Paul probably couldn't look into ancestral memories. (His
son could, though.) While Reverend Mothers looked inwards, into the
lives of their predecessors, men like the Guild navigators and Paul (as
a sort of a super-navigator), instead looked outwards, into the future.
Men and women have different, complementary psychic capabilities;
that's jut science.
--
Juho Julkunen
Always thinking about the hypothetical catgirls
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-10 17:22:38 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Science Fiction vs. Fantasy: The Choice Is Clear
https://www.tor.com/2019/11/06/science-fiction-vs-fantasy-the-choice-is-clear/
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Woodward
TWO comments removed by the moderator? You must have struck a nerve.
That does seem to be one of my talents. Although sometimes it's just
that someone posted a
Post by James Nicoll
duplicate comment...
Which indeed appears to have been the case here.
Incidentally, Paul probably couldn't look into ancestral memories. (His
son could, though.) While Reverend Mothers looked inwards, into the
lives of their predecessors, men like the Guild navigators and Paul (as
a sort of a super-navigator), instead looked outwards, into the future.
Men and women have different, complementary psychic capabilities;
that's jut science.
In the Dune-verse, anyway.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Johnny1A
2019-11-11 05:45:16 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Science Fiction vs. Fantasy: The Choice Is Clear
https://www.tor.com/2019/11/06/science-fiction-vs-fantasy-the-choice-is-clear/
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Woodward
TWO comments removed by the moderator? You must have struck a nerve.
That does seem to be one of my talents. Although sometimes it's just
that someone posted a
Post by James Nicoll
duplicate comment...
Which indeed appears to have been the case here.
Incidentally, Paul probably couldn't look into ancestral memories. (His
son could, though.) While Reverend Mothers looked inwards, into the
lives of their predecessors, men like the Guild navigators and Paul (as
a sort of a super-navigator), instead looked outwards, into the future.
Men and women have different, complementary psychic capabilities;
that's jut science.
In the Dune-verse, anyway.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
The BG was doing what they did, in part, because their theories said that a male 'reverend father' ought to be able to tap into both sets of memories, giving the BG access to both sides of the equation. Unfortunately, in practice the BG found it was just the opposite, instead of having additional power, as theory suggested they should, males could do it at all.

Males could be Guild navigators, and presumably women could too, I don't recall it being said otherwise. The ancestral memories were a different matter.

The breeding project was partly an attempt to get around that issue.
J. Clarke
2019-11-10 17:53:09 UTC
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On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:44:33 +0200, Juho Julkunen
Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Science Fiction vs. Fantasy: The Choice Is Clear
https://www.tor.com/2019/11/06/science-fiction-vs-fantasy-the-choice-is-clear/
TWO comments removed by the moderator? You must have struck a nerve.
That does seem to be one of my talents. Although sometimes it's just that someone posted a
duplicate comment...
Which indeed appears to have been the case here.
Incidentally, Paul probably couldn't look into ancestral memories. (His
son could, though.) While Reverend Mothers looked inwards, into the
lives of their predecessors, men like the Guild navigators and Paul (as
a sort of a super-navigator), instead looked outwards, into the future.
Men and women have different, complementary psychic capabilities;
that's jut science.
I thought that one of the defining properties of the Kwisatz Haderach
was that he could look into the male ancestral memories.
Juho Julkunen
2019-11-10 20:32:20 UTC
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In article <***@4ax.com>, jclarke.873638
@gmail.com says...
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:44:33 +0200, Juho Julkunen
Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Science Fiction vs. Fantasy: The Choice Is Clear
https://www.tor.com/2019/11/06/science-fiction-vs-fantasy-the-choice-is-clear/
TWO comments removed by the moderator? You must have struck a nerve.
That does seem to be one of my talents. Although sometimes it's just that someone posted a
duplicate comment...
Which indeed appears to have been the case here.
Incidentally, Paul probably couldn't look into ancestral memories. (His
son could, though.) While Reverend Mothers looked inwards, into the
lives of their predecessors, men like the Guild navigators and Paul (as
a sort of a super-navigator), instead looked outwards, into the future.
Men and women have different, complementary psychic capabilities;
that's jut science.
I thought that one of the defining properties of the Kwisatz Haderach
was that he could look into the male ancestral memories.
That is what Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam told Paul. The
terminology section at the end of _Dune_ defines KH as "a male Bene
Gesserit whose organic mental powers would bridge space and time."

I don't think Paul is ever unambiguosuly shown accessing any ancestral
memories in _Dune_. He achieved similar wisdom of the ages by
experiencing countless hypothetical lifetimes through his time visions.

In _Children of Dune_ Paul's children and sister do have access to
memories of their biological ancestors, both male and female.
--
Juho Julkunen
Leif Roar Moldskred
2019-11-10 20:37:58 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
I thought that one of the defining properties of the Kwisatz Haderach
was that he could look into the male ancestral memories.
It's been a while since I read the books, but at some point I think it's
stated that Paul _wasn't_ the Kwisatz Haderach -- he was something else,
something unplanned for. (Or, at least, unplanned for by the Bene
Gesserit.)

--
Leif Roar Moldskred
The Lynch movie _did_ state he _was_ the Kwisatz Haderach, mind, but
then the Lynch movie wasn't the most _stringent_ adaption.
Johnny1A
2019-11-11 05:52:06 UTC
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Post by Leif Roar Moldskred
Post by J. Clarke
I thought that one of the defining properties of the Kwisatz Haderach
was that he could look into the male ancestral memories.
It's been a while since I read the books, but at some point I think it's
stated that Paul _wasn't_ the Kwisatz Haderach -- he was something else,
something unplanned for. (Or, at least, unplanned for by the Bene
Gesserit.)
Exactly. He was something _like_ a KH, but not exactly a KH. His son Leto was probably much closer to what the BG had in mind, because he did have the ancestral memories of both sexes, (did Ghanima have the male ones?), and his precognitive powers far surpassed those of his father.

In fact, considering what Leto II is capable of, it's easy to see why the BG would want to create such an entity under their control. Whether they could ever actually hope to control so potent an entity is another matter, though, and in the event they never got the chance to try.
a***@msn.com
2019-11-11 22:39:13 UTC
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His son Leto was probably much closer to what the BG had in mind, because he did >have the ancestral memories of both sexes, (did Ghanima have the male ones?), and >his precognitive powers far surpassed those of his father.
Ghanima did have the ancestral memories of males as I recall - I think she had an argument in her mind with the "memory" of Baron Harkonnen (her grandfather).
Paul S Person
2019-11-12 17:31:36 UTC
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Post by a***@msn.com
His son Leto was probably much closer to what the BG had in mind, because he did >have the ancestral memories of both sexes, (did Ghanima have the male ones?), and >his precognitive powers far surpassed those of his father.
Ghanima did have the ancestral memories of males as I recall - I think she had an argument in her mind with the "memory" of Baron Harkonnen (her grandfather).
Did she get taken over by him?

Or was that a SciFi movie abomination?

Or a different character altogether?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-12 19:12:18 UTC
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Post by a***@msn.com
Post by Johnny1A
His son Leto was probably much closer to what the BG had in mind,
because he did >have the ancestral memories of both sexes, (did Ghanima
have the male ones?), and >his precognitive powers far surpassed those
of his father.
Post by a***@msn.com
Ghanima did have the ancestral memories of males as I recall - I think
she had an argument in her mind with the "memory" of Baron Harkonnen
(her grandfather).
Did she get taken over by him?
Or was that a SciFi movie abomination?
Or a different character altogether?
If you're thinking of Lucrezia, wrong IP, wrong decade.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Juho Julkunen
2019-11-12 23:40:21 UTC
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In article <***@4ax.com>, psperson1
@ix.netcom.invalid says...
Post by Paul S Person
Post by a***@msn.com
His son Leto was probably much closer to what the BG had in mind, because he did >have the ancestral memories of both sexes, (did Ghanima have the male ones?), and >his precognitive powers far surpassed those of his father.
Ghanima did have the ancestral memories of males as I recall - I think she had an argument in her mind with the "memory" of Baron Harkonnen (her grandfather).
Did she get taken over by him?
Or was that a SciFi movie abomination?
Or a different character altogether?
That would have been Ghanima's aunt Alia.

(Baron Harkonnen was Alia's grandfather.)
--
Juho Julkunen
a***@msn.com
2019-11-12 23:54:42 UTC
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Post by Juho Julkunen
@ix.netcom.invalid says...
Post by Paul S Person
Post by a***@msn.com
His son Leto was probably much closer to what the BG had in mind, because he did >have the ancestral memories of both sexes, (did Ghanima have the male ones?), and >his precognitive powers far surpassed those of his father.
Ghanima did have the ancestral memories of males as I recall - I think she had an argument in her mind with the "memory" of Baron Harkonnen (her grandfather).
Did she get taken over by him?
Or was that a SciFi movie abomination?
Or a different character altogether?
That would have been Ghanima's aunt Alia.
(Baron Harkonnen was Alia's grandfather.)
Thanks - you're quite right; I confused Alia with Ghanima.

(on the plus side I never saw the SciFi adaptation - I do have some sense!)
J. Clarke
2019-11-13 00:06:32 UTC
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Post by a***@msn.com
Post by Juho Julkunen
@ix.netcom.invalid says...
Post by Paul S Person
Post by a***@msn.com
His son Leto was probably much closer to what the BG had in mind, because he did >have the ancestral memories of both sexes, (did Ghanima have the male ones?), and >his precognitive powers far surpassed those of his father.
Ghanima did have the ancestral memories of males as I recall - I think she had an argument in her mind with the "memory" of Baron Harkonnen (her grandfather).
Did she get taken over by him?
Or was that a SciFi movie abomination?
Or a different character altogether?
That would have been Ghanima's aunt Alia.
(Baron Harkonnen was Alia's grandfather.)
Thanks - you're quite right; I confused Alia with Ghanima.
(on the plus side I never saw the SciFi adaptation - I do have some sense!)
The SciFi adaptation was considerably better than the movie.
a***@msn.com
2019-11-13 03:18:57 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
Post by a***@msn.com
(on the plus side I never saw the SciFi adaptation - I do have some sense!)
The SciFi adaptation was considerably better than the movie.
Thanks. I may check it out, then.
Paul S Person
2019-11-13 17:21:45 UTC
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Post by a***@msn.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by a***@msn.com
(on the plus side I never saw the SciFi adaptation - I do have some sense!)
The SciFi adaptation was considerably better than the movie.
Thanks. I may check it out, then.
OK, I just want to clarify something here:

AFAIK, there was /never/ a commercial film of /Dune Messiah/ or
/Children of Dune/. The David Lynch film was of /Dune/.

One of my great joys was watching it after I had replaced my original
color TV with the Toshiba I am now using. It allowed the use of
component video (three video cables) -- and, for the first time on TV,
I could see /wormsign/!

I also watched my brother's DVD of the SciFi version of /Dune/. The
film was ... adequate. But the painted desert background became
/especially/ unimpressive when I could clearly see the /seam/ between
its two halves!

I mean, heck, lots of movies with really small budgets managed to
avoid /that/ problem. How hard can it be?

I also saw the SciFi version /Children of Dune/. This was better than
their version of /Dune/, and not just because they had seemless
backgrounds.

/Dune Messiah & Children of Dune/ was the name of the book I got from
the Science Fiction Book Club. I /may/ have purchased it (repurchased
it, I surely owned an earlier copy of each at one time) after watching
the SciFi movie, which may or may not have covered /Dune Messiah/ as
well. Memory fades, and multiple versions of the story don't help one
little bit.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Leif Roar Moldskred
2019-11-13 06:47:24 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
The SciFi adaptation was considerably better than the movie.
Eh. It presented a more coherent story, but it's somewhat listless.
The Lynch movie was a trainwreck, but was a much better fit to the
tone and scope of the novel.

(Also, the SciFi adaption doesn't have Patrick Stewart shouting
"Atomics!" so it's clearly the inferior version.)

--
Leif Roar Moldskred
Paul S Person
2019-11-13 17:11:28 UTC
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On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 01:40:21 +0200, Juho Julkunen
Post by Juho Julkunen
@ix.netcom.invalid says...
Post by Paul S Person
Post by a***@msn.com
His son Leto was probably much closer to what the BG had in mind, because he did >have the ancestral memories of both sexes, (did Ghanima have the male ones?), and >his precognitive powers far surpassed those of his father.
Ghanima did have the ancestral memories of males as I recall - I think she had an argument in her mind with the "memory" of Baron Harkonnen (her grandfather).
Did she get taken over by him?
Or was that a SciFi movie abomination?
Or a different character altogether?
That would have been Ghanima's aunt Alia.
(Baron Harkonnen was Alia's grandfather.)
Yep. That's who it was.

Thanks for jogging a few brain cells.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Johnny1A
2019-11-11 05:41:39 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:44:33 +0200, Juho Julkunen
Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Science Fiction vs. Fantasy: The Choice Is Clear
https://www.tor.com/2019/11/06/science-fiction-vs-fantasy-the-choice-is-clear/
TWO comments removed by the moderator? You must have struck a nerve.
That does seem to be one of my talents. Although sometimes it's just that someone posted a
duplicate comment...
Which indeed appears to have been the case here.
Incidentally, Paul probably couldn't look into ancestral memories. (His
son could, though.) While Reverend Mothers looked inwards, into the
lives of their predecessors, men like the Guild navigators and Paul (as
a sort of a super-navigator), instead looked outwards, into the future.
Men and women have different, complementary psychic capabilities;
that's jut science.
I thought that one of the defining properties of the Kwisatz Haderach
was that he could look into the male ancestral memories.
It's a bit complicated. The Bene Gesserit trying to breed the KH _intended_ that he would be able to combine the male and female memories, and that this would be a key element that would enable him to really use precognition effectively.

But remember that Paul wasn't supposed to be the KH. He wasn't even supposed to be _born_. Jessica was supposed to have a daughter, the BG would mate her with Feyd-Rautha, and _that_ would be the KH. Maybe that one would have had the male memories.

Paul wasn't _exactly_ what the Bene Gesserit had in mind. He had the prescient power, but he didn't get the ancestral memories, though his son Leto II did. Leto II is probably closer to what the BG had in mind, but he was far too hot for the BG to handle.
Johnny1A
2019-11-10 04:36:57 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Science Fiction vs. Fantasy: The Choice Is Clear
https://www.tor.com/2019/11/06/science-fiction-vs-fantasy-the-choice-is-clear/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
To make it worse, there's the 'only hard SF is SF, the rest is fantasy' crowd. These are the people who think that FTL makes a story fantasy, even if the author considers many implications of FTL and handles it carefully and consistently.

At the extreme, you end up with nonsense like 'the mundane manifesto'.
J. Clarke
2019-11-10 04:58:36 UTC
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On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 20:36:57 -0800 (PST), Johnny1A
Post by Johnny1A
Post by James Nicoll
Science Fiction vs. Fantasy: The Choice Is Clear
https://www.tor.com/2019/11/06/science-fiction-vs-fantasy-the-choice-is-clear/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
To make it worse, there's the 'only hard SF is SF, the rest is fantasy' crowd. These are the people who think that FTL makes a story fantasy, even if the author considers many implications of FTL and handles it carefully and consistently.
One that got me was Interstellar, where people who thought they were
smart derided the physics, and when it was pointed out that Kip Thorne
ran the numbers for all of it they acted like he was some random
whacko because he wasn't well known outside the relativity community.

Then he got the Nobel.
Quadibloc
2019-11-10 11:46:40 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
One that got me was Interstellar, where people who thought they were
smart derided the physics, and when it was pointed out that Kip Thorne
ran the numbers for all of it they acted like he was some random
whacko because he wasn't well known outside the relativity community.
Then he got the Nobel.
Not... well... known. Perhaps they should get him to do one of those Mastercard
commercials.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2019-11-10 15:05:18 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
One that got me was Interstellar, where people who thought they were
smart derided the physics, and when it was pointed out that Kip Thorne
ran the numbers for all of it they acted like he was some random
whacko because he wasn't well known outside the relativity community.
Then he got the Nobel.
Not... well... known. Perhaps they should get him to do one of those Mastercard
commercials.
or am I thinking of an American Express commercial?

John Savard
Jack Bohn
2019-11-10 15:45:26 UTC
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On Sunday, November 10, 2019 at 4:46:44 AM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote: 
On Saturday, November 9, 2019 at 9:58:40 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote: 
 
One that got me was Interstellar, where people who thought they were 
smart derided the physics, and when it was pointed out that Kip Thorne 
ran the numbers for all of it they acted like he was some random 
whacko because he wasn't well known outside the relativity community. 
 
Then he got the Nobel. 
 
Not... well... known. Perhaps they should get him to do one of those Mastercard 
commercials. 
or am I thinking of an American Express commercial? 
Isn't that you behind those Foster Grants?
--
-Jack
Chrysi Cat
2019-11-10 17:29:55 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
One that got me was Interstellar, where people who thought they were
smart derided the physics, and when it was pointed out that Kip Thorne
ran the numbers for all of it they acted like he was some random
whacko because he wasn't well known outside the relativity community.
Then he got the Nobel.
Not... well... known. Perhaps they should get him to do one of those Mastercard
commercials.
or am I thinking of an American Express commercial?
John Savard
On one hand, you're thinking of American Express, all right. On the
other, the last "Do You Know Me?" commercial probably aired when I was
still in high school. Though admittedly, I'd still assume everyone here
gets the joke because we don't _HAVE_ Gen Z visiting, or even just
Millennials (though I'm right on the cusp between that last and Gen X,
and my comparative lack of maturity means I prolly know more of
Millennial youth culture than anyone who didn't have a Millennial kid).
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Juho Julkunen
2019-11-10 19:42:46 UTC
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Post by Chrysi Cat
On one hand, you're thinking of American Express, all right. On the
other, the last "Do You Know Me?" commercial probably aired when I was
still in high school. Though admittedly, I'd still assume everyone here
gets the joke because
Everyone here is American, and grew up with American commercials?
--
Juho Julkunen
Peter Trei
2019-11-11 04:04:18 UTC
Reply
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Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by Chrysi Cat
On one hand, you're thinking of American Express, all right. On the
other, the last "Do You Know Me?" commercial probably aired when I was
still in high school. Though admittedly, I'd still assume everyone here
gets the joke because
Everyone here is American, and grew up with American commercials?
Example:



pt
Quadibloc
2019-11-11 04:57:44 UTC
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Post by Juho Julkunen
Everyone here is American, and grew up with American commercials?
American companies so dominate the world economy that some of their commercials
appear on the television screens of other nations, such as Canada.

However, if YouTube is any guide, even English-speaking countries like Britain and
Australia had their own commercials for the Commodore 64, distinct from those
shown on television in North America.

John Savard
Stephen Harker
2019-11-11 06:40:18 UTC
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Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by Chrysi Cat
On one hand, you're thinking of American Express, all right. On the
other, the last "Do You Know Me?" commercial probably aired when I was
still in high school. Though admittedly, I'd still assume everyone here
gets the joke because
Everyone here is American, and grew up with American commercials?
Thank Ghu neither applies to me.

Historically the American commercials most familiar to me are described
in Science Fiction. However, I understand more American commercials are
being aired in Australia these days.
--
Stephen Harker ***@netspace.net.au
was: http://sjharker.customer.netspace.net.au/
now: http://members.iinet.net.au/~***@netspace.net.au/
or: http://members.iinet.net.au/~sjharker_nbn/
h***@gmail.com
2019-11-11 23:32:38 UTC
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Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by Chrysi Cat
On one hand, you're thinking of American Express, all right. On the
other, the last "Do You Know Me?" commercial probably aired when I was
still in high school. Though admittedly, I'd still assume everyone here
gets the joke because
Everyone here is American, and grew up with American commercials?
Growing up in Australia in the 70s/80s we got the American Express "with American Express my name doesn't always draw a blank" with Mel Blanc
I'm not sure how many other american adds were used here
William Hyde
2019-11-10 19:50:27 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
One that got me was Interstellar, where people who thought they were
smart derided the physics, and when it was pointed out that Kip Thorne
ran the numbers for all of it they acted like he was some random
whacko because he wasn't well known outside the relativity community.
Then he got the Nobel.
Not... well... known. Perhaps they should get him to do one of those Mastercard
commercials.
If they knew anything of physics they'd know him as the Thorne of "Misner, Thorne and Wheeler". Even if you don't focus on relativity, you know that book.

William Hyde
Quadibloc
2019-11-11 05:01:12 UTC
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Post by William Hyde
If they knew anything of physics they'd know him as the Thorne of "Misner, Thorne and Wheeler". Even if you don't focus on relativity, you know that book.
Ah, yes, the thick big black one, titled "Gravitation". However, since it's a book
about General Relativity, _very_ few people would have taken a course for which it
is a textbook.

John Savard
William Hyde
2019-11-11 23:58:13 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by William Hyde
If they knew anything of physics they'd know him as the Thorne of "Misner, Thorne and Wheeler". Even if you don't focus on relativity, you know that book.
Ah, yes, the thick big black one, titled "Gravitation". However, since it's a book
about General Relativity, _very_ few people would have taken a course for which it
is a textbook.
Indeed, my GR text was by Weinberg, though the MTW book had been out a couple of years. MTW was optional "supplemental reading".

But it's iconic among the physics community. There are a number of such works, Dunford and Schwartz, Courant and Hilbert, Morse and Feshbach, Jackson, Chandrasekhar. You may never have studied them, but with the exception of the first, you have heard of them. Jackson is by far the most read, I deeply regret that my various E&M courses used different, albeit good, texts.


William Hyde
D B Davis
2019-11-10 14:41:59 UTC
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Post by Johnny1A
At the extreme, you end up with nonsense like 'the mundane manifesto'.
There was nothing inherently wrong with the mundane manifesto except that
its loudest adherants were both entirely humourless and impressively
ignorant, down to using as examples of Mundane SF books that violated its
tenets of MSF.
Amen. The Manifesto [1] includes these examples:

The greater part of the works of Philip K. Dick.
1984
Neuromancer
Blade Runner
Timescape

That list also serendipitously ranks those stories and the movie from my
favorite to least favorite. Although _Timescape_'s been attempted by me
a couple of times its inherent adultery inevitably causes me to bounce
off of it. Presumably _Timescape_'s one an example of a story that
violates the tenets of MSF.

Note.

[1] https://sfgenics.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/geoff-ryman-et-al-the-mundane-manifesto/



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-11 02:24:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
Post by Johnny1A
At the extreme, you end up with nonsense like 'the mundane manifesto'.
There was nothing inherently wrong with the mundane manifesto except that
its loudest adherants were both entirely humourless and impressively
ignorant, down to using as examples of Mundane SF books that violated its
tenets of MSF.
The greater part of the works of Philip K. Dick.
1984
Neuromancer
Blade Runner
Timescape
That list also serendipitously ranks those stories and the movie from my
favorite to least favorite. Although _Timescape_'s been attempted by me
a couple of times its inherent adultery inevitably causes me to bounce
off of it. Presumably _Timescape_'s one an example of a story that
violates the tenets of MSF.
Note.
[1] https://sfgenics.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/geoff-ryman-et-al-the-mundane-manifesto/
Don't Philip K. Dick stories mostly deal with android civil rights
in the colonisation of Mars, without looking much at how any of that works?
Androids distinguishable from humans only in property law...
J. Clarke
2019-11-11 02:45:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:24:47 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Post by Johnny1A
At the extreme, you end up with nonsense like 'the mundane manifesto'.
There was nothing inherently wrong with the mundane manifesto except that
its loudest adherants were both entirely humourless and impressively
ignorant, down to using as examples of Mundane SF books that violated its
tenets of MSF.
The greater part of the works of Philip K. Dick.
1984
Neuromancer
Blade Runner
Timescape
That list also serendipitously ranks those stories and the movie from my
favorite to least favorite. Although _Timescape_'s been attempted by me
a couple of times its inherent adultery inevitably causes me to bounce
off of it. Presumably _Timescape_'s one an example of a story that
violates the tenets of MSF.
Note.
[1] https://sfgenics.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/geoff-ryman-et-al-the-mundane-manifesto/
Don't Philip K. Dick stories mostly deal with android civil rights
in the colonisation of Mars, without looking much at how any of that works?
Androids distinguishable from humans only in property law...
Nope. That is just one.

He wrote more than 40 novels that covered a wide range of themes.
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-11 03:12:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:24:47 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Post by Johnny1A
At the extreme, you end up with nonsense like 'the mundane manifesto'.
There was nothing inherently wrong with the mundane manifesto except that
its loudest adherants were both entirely humourless and impressively
ignorant, down to using as examples of Mundane SF books that violated its
tenets of MSF.
The greater part of the works of Philip K. Dick.
1984
Neuromancer
Blade Runner
Timescape
That list also serendipitously ranks those stories and the movie from my
favorite to least favorite. Although _Timescape_'s been attempted by me
a couple of times its inherent adultery inevitably causes me to bounce
off of it. Presumably _Timescape_'s one an example of a story that
violates the tenets of MSF.
Note.
[1] https://sfgenics.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/geoff-ryman-et-al-the-mundane-manifesto/
Don't Philip K. Dick stories mostly deal with android civil rights
in the colonisation of Mars, without looking much at how any of that works?
Androids distinguishable from humans only in property law...
Nope. That is just one.
He wrote more than 40 novels that covered a wide range of themes.
Hmm... I definitely had the impression that stories kept getting
set on Mars and with androids when that wasn't particularly part of
the plot. Oh, and people who are dead but still making phone calls
and writing letters, such as through a medium. I think that does
get explained, since death has tax advantages. Douglas Adams used
that too... sadly not in real, er, life.
J. Clarke
2019-11-11 03:41:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:12:35 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:24:47 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Post by Johnny1A
At the extreme, you end up with nonsense like 'the mundane manifesto'.
There was nothing inherently wrong with the mundane manifesto except that
its loudest adherants were both entirely humourless and impressively
ignorant, down to using as examples of Mundane SF books that violated its
tenets of MSF.
The greater part of the works of Philip K. Dick.
1984
Neuromancer
Blade Runner
Timescape
That list also serendipitously ranks those stories and the movie from my
favorite to least favorite. Although _Timescape_'s been attempted by me
a couple of times its inherent adultery inevitably causes me to bounce
off of it. Presumably _Timescape_'s one an example of a story that
violates the tenets of MSF.
Note.
[1] https://sfgenics.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/geoff-ryman-et-al-the-mundane-manifesto/
Don't Philip K. Dick stories mostly deal with android civil rights
in the colonisation of Mars, without looking much at how any of that works?
Androids distinguishable from humans only in property law...
Nope. That is just one.
He wrote more than 40 novels that covered a wide range of themes.
Hmm... I definitely had the impression that stories kept getting
set on Mars and with androids when that wasn't particularly part of
the plot. Oh, and people who are dead but still making phone calls
and writing letters, such as through a medium. I think that does
get explained, since death has tax advantages. Douglas Adams used
that too... sadly not in real, er, life.
I'm pretty sure that "The Man in the High Castle" is not set on Mars
and that it doesn't have androids on stage. I don't believe that
there were any Martians or androids in "The Minority Report" either. I
guess I should load Dick into audible and listen to his entire opus on
my commute.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-11 06:10:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:12:35 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:24:47 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Post by Johnny1A
At the extreme, you end up with nonsense like 'the mundane manifesto'.
There was nothing inherently wrong with the mundane manifesto
except that
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
its loudest adherants were both entirely humourless and impressively
ignorant, down to using as examples of Mundane SF books that
violated its
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
tenets of MSF.
The greater part of the works of Philip K. Dick.
1984
Neuromancer
Blade Runner
Timescape
That list also serendipitously ranks those stories and the movie from my
favorite to least favorite. Although _Timescape_'s been attempted by me
a couple of times its inherent adultery inevitably causes me to bounce
off of it. Presumably _Timescape_'s one an example of a story that
violates the tenets of MSF.
Note.
[1]
https://sfgenics.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/geoff-ryman-et-al-the-mundane-manifesto/
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Don't Philip K. Dick stories mostly deal with android civil rights
in the colonisation of Mars, without looking much at how any of that works?
Androids distinguishable from humans only in property law...
Nope. That is just one.
He wrote more than 40 novels that covered a wide range of themes.
Hmm... I definitely had the impression that stories kept getting
set on Mars and with androids when that wasn't particularly part of
the plot. Oh, and people who are dead but still making phone calls
and writing letters, such as through a medium. I think that does
get explained, since death has tax advantages. Douglas Adams used
that too... sadly not in real, er, life.
I'm pretty sure that "The Man in the High Castle" is not set on Mars
and that it doesn't have androids on stage. I don't believe that
there were any Martians or androids in "The Minority Report" either. I
guess I should load Dick into audible and listen to his entire opus on
my commute.
There were definitely neither Martians nor androids in _Eye in
the Sky_.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2019-11-11 17:44:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:12:35 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:24:47 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Post by Johnny1A
At the extreme, you end up with nonsense like 'the mundane manifesto'.
There was nothing inherently wrong with the mundane manifesto except that
its loudest adherants were both entirely humourless and impressively
ignorant, down to using as examples of Mundane SF books that violated its
tenets of MSF.
The greater part of the works of Philip K. Dick.
1984
Neuromancer
Blade Runner
Timescape
That list also serendipitously ranks those stories and the movie from my
favorite to least favorite. Although _Timescape_'s been attempted by me
a couple of times its inherent adultery inevitably causes me to bounce
off of it. Presumably _Timescape_'s one an example of a story that
violates the tenets of MSF.
Note.
[1] https://sfgenics.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/geoff-ryman-et-al-the-mundane-manifesto/
Don't Philip K. Dick stories mostly deal with android civil rights
in the colonisation of Mars, without looking much at how any of that works?
Androids distinguishable from humans only in property law...
Nope. That is just one.
He wrote more than 40 novels that covered a wide range of themes.
Hmm... I definitely had the impression that stories kept getting
set on Mars and with androids when that wasn't particularly part of
the plot. Oh, and people who are dead but still making phone calls
and writing letters, such as through a medium. I think that does
get explained, since death has tax advantages. Douglas Adams used
that too... sadly not in real, er, life.
"The Days of Perky Pat" has a /doll/ in it, but it's on Earth.

I do seem to recall similar stories, perhaps some set on Mars,
involving play with these dolls.

The general idea was that the dolls were used to distract the humans'
attention from their awful situation (post-atomic war, the dreariness
of colonizing Mars).

But, apart from the story cited, I can't guarantee that I am not
confusing PK Dick with somebody else.

I do agree that he wrote a /lot/ of books, most of which had nothing
to do with dolls.

Just as he wrote "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" (credited
source of /Blade Runner/, and with good reason), but that doesn't mean
he had androids in every novel, novellette, or short story.

Indeed, he wrote a large number of mainstream novels, which were
published posthumously as he couldn't get anyone to publish them while
he was still alive.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-11 18:16:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:12:35 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:24:47 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Post by Johnny1A
At the extreme, you end up with nonsense like 'the mundane manifesto'.
There was nothing inherently wrong with the mundane manifesto except that
its loudest adherants were both entirely humourless and impressively
ignorant, down to using as examples of Mundane SF books that violated its
tenets of MSF.
The greater part of the works of Philip K. Dick.
1984
Neuromancer
Blade Runner
Timescape
That list also serendipitously ranks those stories and the movie from my
favorite to least favorite. Although _Timescape_'s been attempted by me
a couple of times its inherent adultery inevitably causes me to bounce
off of it. Presumably _Timescape_'s one an example of a story that
violates the tenets of MSF.
Note.
[1] https://sfgenics.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/geoff-ryman-et-al-the-mundane-manifesto/
Don't Philip K. Dick stories mostly deal with android civil rights
in the colonisation of Mars, without looking much at how any of that works?
Androids distinguishable from humans only in property law...
Nope. That is just one.
He wrote more than 40 novels that covered a wide range of themes.
Hmm... I definitely had the impression that stories kept getting
set on Mars and with androids when that wasn't particularly part of
the plot. Oh, and people who are dead but still making phone calls
and writing letters, such as through a medium. I think that does
get explained, since death has tax advantages. Douglas Adams used
that too... sadly not in real, er, life.
"The Days of Perky Pat" has a /doll/ in it, but it's on Earth.
I do seem to recall similar stories, perhaps some set on Mars,
involving play with these dolls.
The general idea was that the dolls were used to distract the humans'
attention from their awful situation (post-atomic war, the dreariness
of colonizing Mars).
But, apart from the story cited, I can't guarantee that I am not
confusing PK Dick with somebody else.
I do agree that he wrote a /lot/ of books, most of which had nothing
to do with dolls.
Just as he wrote "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" (credited
source of /Blade Runner/, and with good reason), but that doesn't mean
he had androids in every novel, novellette, or short story.
But you only know that characters are androids if the author tells us ;-)
Post by J. Clarke
Indeed, he wrote a large number of mainstream novels, which were
published posthumously as he couldn't get anyone to publish them while
he was still alive.
I suppose that if he wrote stories without any science fiction at all -
that I wasn't aware of - then the Mundane Manifesto is fulfilled!

(but, could still be androids)
p***@hotmail.com
2019-11-11 21:19:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:12:35 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:24:47 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Post by Johnny1A
At the extreme, you end up with nonsense like 'the mundane manifesto'.
There was nothing inherently wrong with the mundane manifesto except that
its loudest adherants were both entirely humourless and impressively
ignorant, down to using as examples of Mundane SF books that violated its
tenets of MSF.
The greater part of the works of Philip K. Dick.
1984
Neuromancer
Blade Runner
Timescape
That list also serendipitously ranks those stories and the movie from my
favorite to least favorite. Although _Timescape_'s been attempted by me
a couple of times its inherent adultery inevitably causes me to bounce
off of it. Presumably _Timescape_'s one an example of a story that
violates the tenets of MSF.
Note.
[1] https://sfgenics.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/geoff-ryman-et-al-the-mundane-manifesto/
Don't Philip K. Dick stories mostly deal with android civil rights
in the colonisation of Mars, without looking much at how any of that works?
Androids distinguishable from humans only in property law...
Nope. That is just one.
He wrote more than 40 novels that covered a wide range of themes.
Hmm... I definitely had the impression that stories kept getting
set on Mars and with androids when that wasn't particularly part of
the plot. Oh, and people who are dead but still making phone calls
and writing letters, such as through a medium. I think that does
get explained, since death has tax advantages. Douglas Adams used
that too... sadly not in real, er, life.
"The Days of Perky Pat" has a /doll/ in it, but it's on Earth.
I do seem to recall similar stories, perhaps some set on Mars,
involving play with these dolls.
The general idea was that the dolls were used to distract the humans'
attention from their awful situation (post-atomic war, the dreariness
of colonizing Mars).
But, apart from the story cited, I can't guarantee that I am not
confusing PK Dick with somebody else.
I do agree that he wrote a /lot/ of books, most of which had nothing
to do with dolls.
Just as he wrote "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" (credited
source of /Blade Runner/, and with good reason), but that doesn't mean
he had androids in every novel, novellette, or short story.
Indeed, he wrote a large number of mainstream novels, which were
published posthumously as he couldn't get anyone to publish them while
he was still alive.
When Philip Dick first wrote about Perky Pat had Barbie been introduced yet?
Of course, Barbie was not the first doll to be marketed with accessories
and play sets.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Quadibloc
2019-11-11 21:47:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
When Philip Dick first wrote about Perky Pat had Barbie been introduced yet?
Of course, Barbie was not the first doll to be marketed with accessories
and play sets.
The short story "The Days of Perky Pat" was published in 1963.

Barbie dates from 1959.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2019-11-12 00:55:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:44:32 -0800, Paul S Person
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:12:35 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:24:47 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Post by Johnny1A
At the extreme, you end up with nonsense like 'the mundane manifesto'.
There was nothing inherently wrong with the mundane manifesto except that
its loudest adherants were both entirely humourless and impressively
ignorant, down to using as examples of Mundane SF books that violated its
tenets of MSF.
The greater part of the works of Philip K. Dick.
1984
Neuromancer
Blade Runner
Timescape
That list also serendipitously ranks those stories and the movie from my
favorite to least favorite. Although _Timescape_'s been attempted by me
a couple of times its inherent adultery inevitably causes me to bounce
off of it. Presumably _Timescape_'s one an example of a story that
violates the tenets of MSF.
Note.
[1] https://sfgenics.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/geoff-ryman-et-al-the-mundane-manifesto/
Don't Philip K. Dick stories mostly deal with android civil rights
in the colonisation of Mars, without looking much at how any of that works?
Androids distinguishable from humans only in property law...
Nope. That is just one.
He wrote more than 40 novels that covered a wide range of themes.
Hmm... I definitely had the impression that stories kept getting
set on Mars and with androids when that wasn't particularly part of
the plot. Oh, and people who are dead but still making phone calls
and writing letters, such as through a medium. I think that does
get explained, since death has tax advantages. Douglas Adams used
that too... sadly not in real, er, life.
"The Days of Perky Pat" has a /doll/ in it, but it's on Earth.
I do seem to recall similar stories, perhaps some set on Mars,
involving play with these dolls.
The general idea was that the dolls were used to distract the humans'
attention from their awful situation (post-atomic war, the dreariness
of colonizing Mars).
But, apart from the story cited, I can't guarantee that I am not
confusing PK Dick with somebody else.
I do agree that he wrote a /lot/ of books, most of which had nothing
to do with dolls.
Just as he wrote "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" (credited
source of /Blade Runner/, and with good reason), but that doesn't mean
he had androids in every novel, novellette, or short story.
Indeed, he wrote a large number of mainstream novels, which were
published posthumously as he couldn't get anyone to publish them while
he was still alive.
A problem I have now is that there have been so many movie and TV
adaptations that I can't keep straight what is Dick and what is
Hollywood.
Paul S Person
2019-11-12 17:36:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 19:55:09 -0500, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:44:32 -0800, Paul S Person
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:12:35 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:24:47 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Post by Johnny1A
At the extreme, you end up with nonsense like 'the mundane manifesto'.
There was nothing inherently wrong with the mundane manifesto except that
its loudest adherants were both entirely humourless and impressively
ignorant, down to using as examples of Mundane SF books that violated its
tenets of MSF.
The greater part of the works of Philip K. Dick.
1984
Neuromancer
Blade Runner
Timescape
That list also serendipitously ranks those stories and the movie from my
favorite to least favorite. Although _Timescape_'s been attempted by me
a couple of times its inherent adultery inevitably causes me to bounce
off of it. Presumably _Timescape_'s one an example of a story that
violates the tenets of MSF.
Note.
[1] https://sfgenics.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/geoff-ryman-et-al-the-mundane-manifesto/
Don't Philip K. Dick stories mostly deal with android civil rights
in the colonisation of Mars, without looking much at how any of that works?
Androids distinguishable from humans only in property law...
Nope. That is just one.
He wrote more than 40 novels that covered a wide range of themes.
Hmm... I definitely had the impression that stories kept getting
set on Mars and with androids when that wasn't particularly part of
the plot. Oh, and people who are dead but still making phone calls
and writing letters, such as through a medium. I think that does
get explained, since death has tax advantages. Douglas Adams used
that too... sadly not in real, er, life.
"The Days of Perky Pat" has a /doll/ in it, but it's on Earth.
I do seem to recall similar stories, perhaps some set on Mars,
involving play with these dolls.
The general idea was that the dolls were used to distract the humans'
attention from their awful situation (post-atomic war, the dreariness
of colonizing Mars).
But, apart from the story cited, I can't guarantee that I am not
confusing PK Dick with somebody else.
I do agree that he wrote a /lot/ of books, most of which had nothing
to do with dolls.
Just as he wrote "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" (credited
source of /Blade Runner/, and with good reason), but that doesn't mean
he had androids in every novel, novellette, or short story.
Indeed, he wrote a large number of mainstream novels, which were
published posthumously as he couldn't get anyone to publish them while
he was still alive.
A problem I have now is that there have been so many movie and TV
adaptations that I can't keep straight what is Dick and what is
Hollywood.
It varies. As do the results.

Not all films based on a PK Dick short story are well done.

/Blade Runner/ is off mostly in showing /too many people/ and /not
mentioning the lead underwear/ men must wear if they want to be
allowed to help produce children. A primary attraction of the colonies
is, in fact, no lead underwear because no background radiation. But it
tracks the story fairly well.

Closest of all, of course, is /A Scanner Darkly/, which merges a few
characters and reduces the number of rehab businesses to one, but is
mostly spot-on.

If you want some /real/ divergence, try the book and film of /I,
Robot/!
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
D B Davis
2019-11-12 18:30:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 19:55:09 -0500, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:44:32 -0800, Paul S Person
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:12:35 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:24:47 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Post by Johnny1A
At the extreme, you end up with nonsense like 'the mundane manifesto'.
There was nothing inherently wrong with the mundane manifesto except that
its loudest adherants were both entirely humourless and impressively
ignorant, down to using as examples of Mundane SF books that violated its
tenets of MSF.
The greater part of the works of Philip K. Dick.
1984
Neuromancer
Blade Runner
Timescape
That list also serendipitously ranks those stories and the movie from my
favorite to least favorite. Although _Timescape_'s been attempted by me
a couple of times its inherent adultery inevitably causes me to bounce
off of it. Presumably _Timescape_'s one an example of a story that
violates the tenets of MSF.
Note.
[1] https://sfgenics.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/geoff-ryman-et-al-the-mundane-manifesto/
Don't Philip K. Dick stories mostly deal with android civil rights
in the colonisation of Mars, without looking much at how any of that works?
Androids distinguishable from humans only in property law...
Nope. That is just one.
He wrote more than 40 novels that covered a wide range of themes.
Hmm... I definitely had the impression that stories kept getting
set on Mars and with androids when that wasn't particularly part of
the plot. Oh, and people who are dead but still making phone calls
and writing letters, such as through a medium. I think that does
get explained, since death has tax advantages. Douglas Adams used
that too... sadly not in real, er, life.
"The Days of Perky Pat" has a /doll/ in it, but it's on Earth.
I do seem to recall similar stories, perhaps some set on Mars,
involving play with these dolls.
The general idea was that the dolls were used to distract the humans'
attention from their awful situation (post-atomic war, the dreariness
of colonizing Mars).
But, apart from the story cited, I can't guarantee that I am not
confusing PK Dick with somebody else.
I do agree that he wrote a /lot/ of books, most of which had nothing
to do with dolls.
Just as he wrote "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" (credited
source of /Blade Runner/, and with good reason), but that doesn't mean
he had androids in every novel, novellette, or short story.
Indeed, he wrote a large number of mainstream novels, which were
published posthumously as he couldn't get anyone to publish them while
he was still alive.
A problem I have now is that there have been so many movie and TV
adaptations that I can't keep straight what is Dick and what is
Hollywood.
It varies. As do the results.
Not all films based on a PK Dick short story are well done.
/Blade Runner/ is off mostly in showing /too many people/ and /not
mentioning the lead underwear/ men must wear if they want to be
allowed to help produce children. A primary attraction of the colonies
is, in fact, no lead underwear because no background radiation. But it
tracks the story fairly well.
Closest of all, of course, is /A Scanner Darkly/, which merges a few
characters and reduces the number of rehab businesses to one, but is
mostly spot-on.
If you want some /real/ divergence, try the book and film of /I,
Robot/!
Although the Hollywood treatment of _A Scanner Darkly_ is not bad the
_Radio Free Albemuth_ movie follows its novel closer.



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Juho Julkunen
2019-11-12 23:44:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>, psperson1
@ix.netcom.invalid says...
Post by Paul S Person
If you want some /real/ divergence, try the book and film of /I,
Robot/!
_I, Robot_ was a title (borrowed from the Binder brothers) for a
collection of short stories, and the movie does contain a number of
themes, ideas, and characters from Asimov's works.
--
Juho Julkunen
Paul S Person
2019-11-13 17:29:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 01:44:51 +0200, Juho Julkunen
Post by Juho Julkunen
@ix.netcom.invalid says...
Post by Paul S Person
If you want some /real/ divergence, try the book and film of /I,
Robot/!
_I, Robot_ was a title (borrowed from the Binder brothers) for a
collection of short stories, and the movie does contain a number of
themes, ideas, and characters from Asimov's works.
Yes, it does, including the inevitable consequence of the Three Laws.

But it is a total desecration of Asimov's philosophy. /His/ non-mobile
positronic brains never used explicit violence to take control. They
were much too intelligent for that.

I really like the movie, BTW. And the book.

I do sometimes wish someone would film the /earlier/ parts of the book
-- a pair of robotic engineers solving really wierd robotic problems,
usually with hilarious results.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
David Johnston
2019-11-13 00:38:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 19:55:09 -0500, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:44:32 -0800, Paul S Person
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:12:35 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:24:47 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Post by Johnny1A
At the extreme, you end up with nonsense like 'the mundane manifesto'.
There was nothing inherently wrong with the mundane manifesto except that
its loudest adherants were both entirely humourless and impressively
ignorant, down to using as examples of Mundane SF books that violated its
tenets of MSF.
The greater part of the works of Philip K. Dick.
1984
Neuromancer
Blade Runner
Timescape
That list also serendipitously ranks those stories and the movie from my
favorite to least favorite. Although _Timescape_'s been attempted by me
a couple of times its inherent adultery inevitably causes me to bounce
off of it. Presumably _Timescape_'s one an example of a story that
violates the tenets of MSF.
Note.
[1] https://sfgenics.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/geoff-ryman-et-al-the-mundane-manifesto/
Don't Philip K. Dick stories mostly deal with android civil rights
in the colonisation of Mars, without looking much at how any of that works?
Androids distinguishable from humans only in property law...
Nope. That is just one.
He wrote more than 40 novels that covered a wide range of themes.
Hmm... I definitely had the impression that stories kept getting
set on Mars and with androids when that wasn't particularly part of
the plot. Oh, and people who are dead but still making phone calls
and writing letters, such as through a medium. I think that does
get explained, since death has tax advantages. Douglas Adams used
that too... sadly not in real, er, life.
"The Days of Perky Pat" has a /doll/ in it, but it's on Earth.
I do seem to recall similar stories, perhaps some set on Mars,
involving play with these dolls.
The general idea was that the dolls were used to distract the humans'
attention from their awful situation (post-atomic war, the dreariness
of colonizing Mars).
But, apart from the story cited, I can't guarantee that I am not
confusing PK Dick with somebody else.
I do agree that he wrote a /lot/ of books, most of which had nothing
to do with dolls.
Just as he wrote "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" (credited
source of /Blade Runner/, and with good reason), but that doesn't mean
he had androids in every novel, novellette, or short story.
Indeed, he wrote a large number of mainstream novels, which were
published posthumously as he couldn't get anyone to publish them while
he was still alive.
A problem I have now is that there have been so many movie and TV
adaptations that I can't keep straight what is Dick and what is
Hollywood.
It varies. As do the results.
Not all films based on a PK Dick short story are well done.
/Blade Runner/ is off mostly in showing /too many people/ and /not
mentioning the lead underwear/ men must wear if they want to be
allowed to help produce children. A primary attraction of the colonies
is, in fact, no lead underwear because no background radiation. But it
tracks the story fairly well.
Closest of all, of course, is /A Scanner Darkly/, which merges a few
characters and reduces the number of rehab businesses to one, but is
mostly spot-on.
If you want some /real/ divergence, try the book and film of /I,
Robot/!
That pales by comparison with Bladerunner, which totally failed to have
a plague and a smuggler of medical supplies to doctors providing illegal
care to poor people who didn't agree to be sterilized for legal access
to medical care. It's almost as if they weren't adapting The
Bladerunner at all.
p***@hotmail.com
2019-11-13 04:06:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 19:55:09 -0500, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:44:32 -0800, Paul S Person
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:12:35 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:24:47 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Post by Johnny1A
At the extreme, you end up with nonsense like 'the mundane manifesto'.
There was nothing inherently wrong with the mundane manifesto except that
its loudest adherants were both entirely humourless and impressively
ignorant, down to using as examples of Mundane SF books that violated its
tenets of MSF.
The greater part of the works of Philip K. Dick.
1984
Neuromancer
Blade Runner
Timescape
That list also serendipitously ranks those stories and the movie from my
favorite to least favorite. Although _Timescape_'s been attempted by me
a couple of times its inherent adultery inevitably causes me to bounce
off of it. Presumably _Timescape_'s one an example of a story that
violates the tenets of MSF.
Note.
[1] https://sfgenics.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/geoff-ryman-et-al-the-mundane-manifesto/
Don't Philip K. Dick stories mostly deal with android civil rights
in the colonisation of Mars, without looking much at how any of that works?
Androids distinguishable from humans only in property law...
Nope. That is just one.
He wrote more than 40 novels that covered a wide range of themes.
Hmm... I definitely had the impression that stories kept getting
set on Mars and with androids when that wasn't particularly part of
the plot. Oh, and people who are dead but still making phone calls
and writing letters, such as through a medium. I think that does
get explained, since death has tax advantages. Douglas Adams used
that too... sadly not in real, er, life.
"The Days of Perky Pat" has a /doll/ in it, but it's on Earth.
I do seem to recall similar stories, perhaps some set on Mars,
involving play with these dolls.
The general idea was that the dolls were used to distract the humans'
attention from their awful situation (post-atomic war, the dreariness
of colonizing Mars).
But, apart from the story cited, I can't guarantee that I am not
confusing PK Dick with somebody else.
I do agree that he wrote a /lot/ of books, most of which had nothing
to do with dolls.
Just as he wrote "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" (credited
source of /Blade Runner/, and with good reason), but that doesn't mean
he had androids in every novel, novellette, or short story.
Indeed, he wrote a large number of mainstream novels, which were
published posthumously as he couldn't get anyone to publish them while
he was still alive.
A problem I have now is that there have been so many movie and TV
adaptations that I can't keep straight what is Dick and what is
Hollywood.
It varies. As do the results.
Not all films based on a PK Dick short story are well done.
/Blade Runner/ is off mostly in showing /too many people/ and /not
mentioning the lead underwear/ men must wear if they want to be
allowed to help produce children. A primary attraction of the colonies
is, in fact, no lead underwear because no background radiation. But it
tracks the story fairly well.
Closest of all, of course, is /A Scanner Darkly/, which merges a few
characters and reduces the number of rehab businesses to one, but is
mostly spot-on.
If you want some /real/ divergence, try the book and film of /I,
Robot/!
That pales by comparison with Bladerunner, which totally failed to have
a plague and a smuggler of medical supplies to doctors providing illegal
care to poor people who didn't agree to be sterilized for legal access
to medical care. It's almost as if they weren't adapting The
Bladerunner at all.
I believe you are referring to the Alan Nourse novel of the same
name. As I understand it, a title cannot be copyrighted. Alan Nourse
and James White both wrote novels titled _Star Surgeon_. However,
movie studios, who deal in amounts of money orders of magnitude
greater than authors except those at the J. K. Rowlings level, will
sometimes buy the rights to a book whose title they want to use for
an unrelated movie. The Karate Kid was a character in the DC comics
Legion of Super Heroes; he was somewhat like _Magnus: Robot Fighter_
in that he had no super powers as such but had trained in martial
arts to the point where could smash metal. The producers of the
movie _The Karate Kid_ bought the rights to the character to prevent
legal problems.

David Gerrold's tribbles were originally called "fuzzies" in his _Star Trek_
script, and the studio lawyers had him change it since H. Beam Piper had
used that name in _Little Fuzzy_ and sequels.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
a***@msn.com
2019-11-13 04:16:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I believe you are referring to the Alan Nourse novel of the same
name.
I think David Johnston had his tongue firmly in cheek during the post your are replying to.
Quadibloc
2019-11-13 04:29:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by a***@msn.com
I think David Johnston had his tongue firmly in cheek during the post your are replying to.
I'm sure he did, but that is not a reason for the informative reply not to have
been written and made available.

John Savard
a***@msn.com
2019-11-13 04:35:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by a***@msn.com
I think David Johnston had his tongue firmly in cheek during the post your are replying to.
I'm sure he did, but that is not a reason for the informative reply not to have
been written and made available.
Point taken.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-13 05:19:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
David Gerrold's tribbles were originally called "fuzzies" in his _Star Trek_
script, and the studio lawyers had him change it since H. Beam Piper had
used that name in _Little Fuzzy_ and sequels.
They also got nervous about the tribbles infringing on Heinlein's
flat cats in _The Rolling Stones._ So they asked Heinlein, who
said, "Oh, no problem, I stole the idea from 'Pigs Is Pigs.'"

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2004/2004-h/2004-h.htm
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
David Johnston
2019-11-13 06:39:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by David Johnston
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 19:55:09 -0500, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:44:32 -0800, Paul S Person
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:12:35 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:24:47 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Post by Johnny1A
At the extreme, you end up with nonsense like 'the mundane manifesto'.
There was nothing inherently wrong with the mundane manifesto except that
its loudest adherants were both entirely humourless and impressively
ignorant, down to using as examples of Mundane SF books that violated its
tenets of MSF.
The greater part of the works of Philip K. Dick.
1984
Neuromancer
Blade Runner
Timescape
That list also serendipitously ranks those stories and the movie from my
favorite to least favorite. Although _Timescape_'s been attempted by me
a couple of times its inherent adultery inevitably causes me to bounce
off of it. Presumably _Timescape_'s one an example of a story that
violates the tenets of MSF.
Note.
[1] https://sfgenics.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/geoff-ryman-et-al-the-mundane-manifesto/
Don't Philip K. Dick stories mostly deal with android civil rights
in the colonisation of Mars, without looking much at how any of that works?
Androids distinguishable from humans only in property law...
Nope. That is just one.
He wrote more than 40 novels that covered a wide range of themes.
Hmm... I definitely had the impression that stories kept getting
set on Mars and with androids when that wasn't particularly part of
the plot. Oh, and people who are dead but still making phone calls
and writing letters, such as through a medium. I think that does
get explained, since death has tax advantages. Douglas Adams used
that too... sadly not in real, er, life.
"The Days of Perky Pat" has a /doll/ in it, but it's on Earth.
I do seem to recall similar stories, perhaps some set on Mars,
involving play with these dolls.
The general idea was that the dolls were used to distract the humans'
attention from their awful situation (post-atomic war, the dreariness
of colonizing Mars).
But, apart from the story cited, I can't guarantee that I am not
confusing PK Dick with somebody else.
I do agree that he wrote a /lot/ of books, most of which had nothing
to do with dolls.
Just as he wrote "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" (credited
source of /Blade Runner/, and with good reason), but that doesn't mean
he had androids in every novel, novellette, or short story.
Indeed, he wrote a large number of mainstream novels, which were
published posthumously as he couldn't get anyone to publish them while
he was still alive.
A problem I have now is that there have been so many movie and TV
adaptations that I can't keep straight what is Dick and what is
Hollywood.
It varies. As do the results.
Not all films based on a PK Dick short story are well done.
/Blade Runner/ is off mostly in showing /too many people/ and /not
mentioning the lead underwear/ men must wear if they want to be
allowed to help produce children. A primary attraction of the colonies
is, in fact, no lead underwear because no background radiation. But it
tracks the story fairly well.
Closest of all, of course, is /A Scanner Darkly/, which merges a few
characters and reduces the number of rehab businesses to one, but is
mostly spot-on.
If you want some /real/ divergence, try the book and film of /I,
Robot/!
That pales by comparison with Bladerunner, which totally failed to have
a plague and a smuggler of medical supplies to doctors providing illegal
care to poor people who didn't agree to be sterilized for legal access
to medical care. It's almost as if they weren't adapting The
Bladerunner at all.
I believe you are referring to the Alan Nourse novel of the same
name. As I understand it, a title cannot be copyrighted. Alan Nourse
and James White both wrote novels titled _Star Surgeon_. However,
movie studios, who deal in amounts of money orders of magnitude
greater than authors except those at the J. K. Rowlings level, will
sometimes buy the rights to a book whose title they want to use for
an unrelated movie. The Karate Kid was a character in the DC comics
Legion of Super Heroes; he was somewhat like _Magnus: Robot Fighter_
in that he had no super powers as such but had trained in martial
arts to the point where could smash metal. The producers of the
movie _The Karate Kid_ bought the rights to the character to prevent
legal problems.
David Gerrold's tribbles were originally called "fuzzies" in his _Star Trek_
script, and the studio lawyers had him change it since H. Beam Piper had
used that name in _Little Fuzzy_ and sequels.
And in the case of I, Robot, they optioned the title to keep the Asimov
estate from suing them for their use of the Three Laws IP in a script
that was initially entitled "Hardwired". The film "I, Robot" is not an
adaptation of any specific Asimov story. It's just a reuse of the
title. Again. Hence my joke.
Paul S Person
2019-11-13 17:33:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Nov 2019 23:39:35 -0700, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by David Johnston
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 19:55:09 -0500, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:44:32 -0800, Paul S Person
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:12:35 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:24:47 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Post by Johnny1A
At the extreme, you end up with nonsense like 'the mundane manifesto'.
There was nothing inherently wrong with the mundane manifesto except that
its loudest adherants were both entirely humourless and impressively
ignorant, down to using as examples of Mundane SF books that violated its
tenets of MSF.
The greater part of the works of Philip K. Dick.
1984
Neuromancer
Blade Runner
Timescape
That list also serendipitously ranks those stories and the movie from my
favorite to least favorite. Although _Timescape_'s been attempted by me
a couple of times its inherent adultery inevitably causes me to bounce
off of it. Presumably _Timescape_'s one an example of a story that
violates the tenets of MSF.
Note.
[1] https://sfgenics.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/geoff-ryman-et-al-the-mundane-manifesto/
Don't Philip K. Dick stories mostly deal with android civil rights
in the colonisation of Mars, without looking much at how any of that works?
Androids distinguishable from humans only in property law...
Nope. That is just one.
He wrote more than 40 novels that covered a wide range of themes.
Hmm... I definitely had the impression that stories kept getting
set on Mars and with androids when that wasn't particularly part of
the plot. Oh, and people who are dead but still making phone calls
and writing letters, such as through a medium. I think that does
get explained, since death has tax advantages. Douglas Adams used
that too... sadly not in real, er, life.
"The Days of Perky Pat" has a /doll/ in it, but it's on Earth.
I do seem to recall similar stories, perhaps some set on Mars,
involving play with these dolls.
The general idea was that the dolls were used to distract the humans'
attention from their awful situation (post-atomic war, the dreariness
of colonizing Mars).
But, apart from the story cited, I can't guarantee that I am not
confusing PK Dick with somebody else.
I do agree that he wrote a /lot/ of books, most of which had nothing
to do with dolls.
Just as he wrote "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" (credited
source of /Blade Runner/, and with good reason), but that doesn't mean
he had androids in every novel, novellette, or short story.
Indeed, he wrote a large number of mainstream novels, which were
published posthumously as he couldn't get anyone to publish them while
he was still alive.
A problem I have now is that there have been so many movie and TV
adaptations that I can't keep straight what is Dick and what is
Hollywood.
It varies. As do the results.
Not all films based on a PK Dick short story are well done.
/Blade Runner/ is off mostly in showing /too many people/ and /not
mentioning the lead underwear/ men must wear if they want to be
allowed to help produce children. A primary attraction of the colonies
is, in fact, no lead underwear because no background radiation. But it
tracks the story fairly well.
Closest of all, of course, is /A Scanner Darkly/, which merges a few
characters and reduces the number of rehab businesses to one, but is
mostly spot-on.
If you want some /real/ divergence, try the book and film of /I,
Robot/!
That pales by comparison with Bladerunner, which totally failed to have
a plague and a smuggler of medical supplies to doctors providing illegal
care to poor people who didn't agree to be sterilized for legal access
to medical care. It's almost as if they weren't adapting The
Bladerunner at all.
I believe you are referring to the Alan Nourse novel of the same
name. As I understand it, a title cannot be copyrighted. Alan Nourse
and James White both wrote novels titled _Star Surgeon_. However,
movie studios, who deal in amounts of money orders of magnitude
greater than authors except those at the J. K. Rowlings level, will
sometimes buy the rights to a book whose title they want to use for
an unrelated movie. The Karate Kid was a character in the DC comics
Legion of Super Heroes; he was somewhat like _Magnus: Robot Fighter_
in that he had no super powers as such but had trained in martial
arts to the point where could smash metal. The producers of the
movie _The Karate Kid_ bought the rights to the character to prevent
legal problems.
David Gerrold's tribbles were originally called "fuzzies" in his _Star Trek_
script, and the studio lawyers had him change it since H. Beam Piper had
used that name in _Little Fuzzy_ and sequels.
And in the case of I, Robot, they optioned the title to keep the Asimov
estate from suing them for their use of the Three Laws IP in a script
that was initially entitled "Hardwired". The film "I, Robot" is not an
adaptation of any specific Asimov story. It's just a reuse of the
title. Again. Hence my joke.
It is a bit more than just a re-use of the title.

While pretty much ignoring the earlier parts, and their humor, toward
the end of the book the world has large nonmobile positronic brains
that are controlling the world in very subtle ways. And there is
reason to believe that a recent President of the Earth was, in fact, a
robot.

They just spiced it up with a lot of violence. Very well-done
violence, for those of you who like that sort of film as much as I do.

Nonetheless, your characterization is not very far off at all.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
David Johnston
2019-11-13 22:23:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 12 Nov 2019 23:39:35 -0700, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by David Johnston
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 19:55:09 -0500, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:44:32 -0800, Paul S Person
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:12:35 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:24:47 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Post by Johnny1A
At the extreme, you end up with nonsense like 'the mundane manifesto'.
There was nothing inherently wrong with the mundane manifesto except that
its loudest adherants were both entirely humourless and impressively
ignorant, down to using as examples of Mundane SF books that violated its
tenets of MSF.
The greater part of the works of Philip K. Dick.
1984
Neuromancer
Blade Runner
Timescape
That list also serendipitously ranks those stories and the movie from my
favorite to least favorite. Although _Timescape_'s been attempted by me
a couple of times its inherent adultery inevitably causes me to bounce
off of it. Presumably _Timescape_'s one an example of a story that
violates the tenets of MSF.
Note.
[1] https://sfgenics.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/geoff-ryman-et-al-the-mundane-manifesto/
Don't Philip K. Dick stories mostly deal with android civil rights
in the colonisation of Mars, without looking much at how any of that works?
Androids distinguishable from humans only in property law...
Nope. That is just one.
He wrote more than 40 novels that covered a wide range of themes.
Hmm... I definitely had the impression that stories kept getting
set on Mars and with androids when that wasn't particularly part of
the plot. Oh, and people who are dead but still making phone calls
and writing letters, such as through a medium. I think that does
get explained, since death has tax advantages. Douglas Adams used
that too... sadly not in real, er, life.
"The Days of Perky Pat" has a /doll/ in it, but it's on Earth.
I do seem to recall similar stories, perhaps some set on Mars,
involving play with these dolls.
The general idea was that the dolls were used to distract the humans'
attention from their awful situation (post-atomic war, the dreariness
of colonizing Mars).
But, apart from the story cited, I can't guarantee that I am not
confusing PK Dick with somebody else.
I do agree that he wrote a /lot/ of books, most of which had nothing
to do with dolls.
Just as he wrote "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" (credited
source of /Blade Runner/, and with good reason), but that doesn't mean
he had androids in every novel, novellette, or short story.
Indeed, he wrote a large number of mainstream novels, which were
published posthumously as he couldn't get anyone to publish them while
he was still alive.
A problem I have now is that there have been so many movie and TV
adaptations that I can't keep straight what is Dick and what is
Hollywood.
It varies. As do the results.
Not all films based on a PK Dick short story are well done.
/Blade Runner/ is off mostly in showing /too many people/ and /not
mentioning the lead underwear/ men must wear if they want to be
allowed to help produce children. A primary attraction of the colonies
is, in fact, no lead underwear because no background radiation. But it
tracks the story fairly well.
Closest of all, of course, is /A Scanner Darkly/, which merges a few
characters and reduces the number of rehab businesses to one, but is
mostly spot-on.
If you want some /real/ divergence, try the book and film of /I,
Robot/!
That pales by comparison with Bladerunner, which totally failed to have
a plague and a smuggler of medical supplies to doctors providing illegal
care to poor people who didn't agree to be sterilized for legal access
to medical care. It's almost as if they weren't adapting The
Bladerunner at all.
I believe you are referring to the Alan Nourse novel of the same
name. As I understand it, a title cannot be copyrighted. Alan Nourse
and James White both wrote novels titled _Star Surgeon_. However,
movie studios, who deal in amounts of money orders of magnitude
greater than authors except those at the J. K. Rowlings level, will
sometimes buy the rights to a book whose title they want to use for
an unrelated movie. The Karate Kid was a character in the DC comics
Legion of Super Heroes; he was somewhat like _Magnus: Robot Fighter_
in that he had no super powers as such but had trained in martial
arts to the point where could smash metal. The producers of the
movie _The Karate Kid_ bought the rights to the character to prevent
legal problems.
David Gerrold's tribbles were originally called "fuzzies" in his _Star Trek_
script, and the studio lawyers had him change it since H. Beam Piper had
used that name in _Little Fuzzy_ and sequels.
And in the case of I, Robot, they optioned the title to keep the Asimov
estate from suing them for their use of the Three Laws IP in a script
that was initially entitled "Hardwired". The film "I, Robot" is not an
adaptation of any specific Asimov story. It's just a reuse of the
title. Again. Hence my joke.
It is a bit more than just a re-use of the title.
Only a tiny bit.
Post by Paul S Person
While pretty much ignoring the earlier parts, and their humor, toward
the end of the book the world has large nonmobile positronic brains
that are controlling the world in very subtle ways. And there is
reason to believe that a recent President of the Earth was, in fact, a
robot.
They just spiced it up with a lot of violence. Very well-done
violence, for those of you who like that sort of film as much as I do.
Yeah but the Caves of Steel is actually closer what with a human cop who
mistrusts robots being forced to team up with a robot to solve the
murder of the robot's creator. You know Caves of Steel is the most
Hollywood-friendly thing Asimov ever wrote. He wrote the mismatched cop
buddy movie decades before Hollywood caught on to the formula. Truly a
man ahead of his time.
Post by Paul S Person
Nonetheless, your characterization is not very far off at all.
Kevrob
2019-11-14 04:56:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 12 Nov 2019 23:39:35 -0700, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by David Johnston
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 19:55:09 -0500, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:44:32 -0800, Paul S Person
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:12:35 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:24:47 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Post by Johnny1A
At the extreme, you end up with nonsense like 'the mundane manifesto'.
There was nothing inherently wrong with the mundane manifesto except that
its loudest adherants were both entirely humourless and impressively
ignorant, down to using as examples of Mundane SF books that violated its
tenets of MSF.
The greater part of the works of Philip K. Dick.
1984
Neuromancer
Blade Runner
Timescape
That list also serendipitously ranks those stories and the movie from my
favorite to least favorite. Although _Timescape_'s been attempted by me
a couple of times its inherent adultery inevitably causes me to bounce
off of it. Presumably _Timescape_'s one an example of a story that
violates the tenets of MSF.
Note.
[1] https://sfgenics.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/geoff-ryman-et-al-the-mundane-manifesto/
Don't Philip K. Dick stories mostly deal with android civil rights
in the colonisation of Mars, without looking much at how any of that works?
Androids distinguishable from humans only in property law...
Nope. That is just one.
He wrote more than 40 novels that covered a wide range of themes.
Hmm... I definitely had the impression that stories kept getting
set on Mars and with androids when that wasn't particularly part of
the plot. Oh, and people who are dead but still making phone calls
and writing letters, such as through a medium. I think that does
get explained, since death has tax advantages. Douglas Adams used
that too... sadly not in real, er, life.
"The Days of Perky Pat" has a /doll/ in it, but it's on Earth.
I do seem to recall similar stories, perhaps some set on Mars,
involving play with these dolls.
The general idea was that the dolls were used to distract the humans'
attention from their awful situation (post-atomic war, the dreariness
of colonizing Mars).
But, apart from the story cited, I can't guarantee that I am not
confusing PK Dick with somebody else.
I do agree that he wrote a /lot/ of books, most of which had nothing
to do with dolls.
Just as he wrote "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" (credited
source of /Blade Runner/, and with good reason), but that doesn't mean
he had androids in every novel, novellette, or short story.
Indeed, he wrote a large number of mainstream novels, which were
published posthumously as he couldn't get anyone to publish them while
he was still alive.
A problem I have now is that there have been so many movie and TV
adaptations that I can't keep straight what is Dick and what is
Hollywood.
It varies. As do the results.
Not all films based on a PK Dick short story are well done.
/Blade Runner/ is off mostly in showing /too many people/ and /not
mentioning the lead underwear/ men must wear if they want to be
allowed to help produce children. A primary attraction of the colonies
is, in fact, no lead underwear because no background radiation. But it
tracks the story fairly well.
Closest of all, of course, is /A Scanner Darkly/, which merges a few
characters and reduces the number of rehab businesses to one, but is
mostly spot-on.
If you want some /real/ divergence, try the book and film of /I,
Robot/!
That pales by comparison with Bladerunner, which totally failed to have
a plague and a smuggler of medical supplies to doctors providing illegal
care to poor people who didn't agree to be sterilized for legal access
to medical care. It's almost as if they weren't adapting The
Bladerunner at all.
I believe you are referring to the Alan Nourse novel of the same
name. As I understand it, a title cannot be copyrighted. Alan Nourse
and James White both wrote novels titled _Star Surgeon_. However,
movie studios, who deal in amounts of money orders of magnitude
greater than authors except those at the J. K. Rowlings level, will
sometimes buy the rights to a book whose title they want to use for
an unrelated movie. The Karate Kid was a character in the DC comics
Legion of Super Heroes; he was somewhat like _Magnus: Robot Fighter_
in that he had no super powers as such but had trained in martial
arts to the point where could smash metal. The producers of the
movie _The Karate Kid_ bought the rights to the character to prevent
legal problems.
David Gerrold's tribbles were originally called "fuzzies" in his _Star Trek_
script, and the studio lawyers had him change it since H. Beam Piper had
used that name in _Little Fuzzy_ and sequels.
And in the case of I, Robot, they optioned the title to keep the Asimov
estate from suing them for their use of the Three Laws IP in a script
that was initially entitled "Hardwired". The film "I, Robot" is not an
adaptation of any specific Asimov story. It's just a reuse of the
title. Again. Hence my joke.
It is a bit more than just a re-use of the title.
Only a tiny bit.
Post by Paul S Person
While pretty much ignoring the earlier parts, and their humor, toward
the end of the book the world has large nonmobile positronic brains
that are controlling the world in very subtle ways. And there is
reason to believe that a recent President of the Earth was, in fact, a
robot.
They just spiced it up with a lot of violence. Very well-done
violence, for those of you who like that sort of film as much as I do.
Yeah but the Caves of Steel is actually closer what with a human cop who
mistrusts robots being forced to team up with a robot to solve the
murder of the robot's creator. You know Caves of Steel is the most
Hollywood-friendly thing Asimov ever wrote. He wrote the mismatched cop
buddy movie decades before Hollywood caught on to the formula. Truly a
man ahead of his time.
Which beget Bova and Ellison's "Brillo," which beget
ABC-TV's "Future Cop,"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Cop_(TV_series)

...though "Holmes and Yoyo" aired first.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_%26_Yoyo

....etc, and so on.

Fox had the fairly recent "Almost Human."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almost_Human_(TV_series)
Post by David Johnston
Post by Paul S Person
Nonetheless, your characterization is not very far off at all.
Kevin R
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-11-14 06:11:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Which beget Bova and Ellison's "Brillo," which beget
ABC-TV's "Future Cop,"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Cop_(TV_series)
...though "Holmes and Yoyo" aired first.
Yoyo.. Yoyo. That sounds familiar. Where did he last work?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
p***@hotmail.com
2019-11-14 07:55:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Kevrob
Which beget Bova and Ellison's "Brillo," which beget
ABC-TV's "Future Cop,"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Cop_(TV_series)
...though "Holmes and Yoyo" aired first.
Yoyo.. Yoyo. That sounds familiar. Where did he last work?
--
Are you referring to the cellist?

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Dimensional Traveler
2019-11-14 08:38:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Kevrob
Which beget Bova and Ellison's "Brillo," which beget
ABC-TV's "Future Cop,"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Cop_(TV_series)
...though "Holmes and Yoyo" aired first.
Yoyo.. Yoyo. That sounds familiar. Where did he last work?
--
Are you referring to the cellist?
Yoyo underwent a sex change operation and became an agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2364582/characters/nm3086285
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-11-14 13:22:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Kevrob
Which beget Bova and Ellison's "Brillo," which beget
ABC-TV's "Future Cop,"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Cop_(TV_series)
...though "Holmes and Yoyo" aired first.
Yoyo.. Yoyo. That sounds familiar. Where did he last work?
--
Are you referring to the cellist?
Sorry, that was a callout to an H&Y running joke, but I was assuming
without evidence that anyone actually watched the series.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-14 14:04:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 12:11:29 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Kevrob
Which beget Bova and Ellison's "Brillo," which beget
ABC-TV's "Future Cop,"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Cop_(TV_series)
...though "Holmes and Yoyo" aired first.
Yoyo.. Yoyo. That sounds familiar. Where did he last work?
--
Are you referring to the cellist?
Sorry, that was a callout to an H&Y running joke, but I was assuming
without evidence that anyone actually watched the series.
I, for one, never even heard of it. Care to provide a brief
summary?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jack Bohn
2019-11-14 14:39:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 12:11:29 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Kevrob
Which beget Bova and Ellison's "Brillo," which beget
ABC-TV's "Future Cop,"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Cop_(TV_series)
...though "Holmes and Yoyo" aired first.
Yoyo.. Yoyo. That sounds familiar. Where did he last work?
--
Are you referring to the cellist?
Sorry, that was a callout to an H&Y running joke, but I was assuming
without evidence that anyone actually watched the series.
I, for one, never even heard of it. Care to provide a brief
summary?
Holmes, a not-so-great-detective (on the police force) is teamed up with his new partner with the inconspicuous name of Yoyonovich or somesuch. Yoyo is secretly a robot. Yoyo was played by the great John Schuck in a manner reminiscent of Hymie from "Get Smart". Holmes was played by some "seen him before" guy.

The only gag I remember from it was that Yoyo had a built-in instamatic camera. He would mash his nose to take a picture of what he was seeing, then open his jacket to have the photo emerge from his shirt pocket.
--
-Jack
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-11-14 15:10:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 12:11:29 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Kevrob
Which beget Bova and Ellison's "Brillo," which beget
ABC-TV's "Future Cop,"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Cop_(TV_series)
...though "Holmes and Yoyo" aired first.
Yoyo.. Yoyo. That sounds familiar. Where did he last work?
--
Are you referring to the cellist?
Sorry, that was a callout to an H&Y running joke, but I was assuming
without evidence that anyone actually watched the series.
I, for one, never even heard of it. Care to provide a brief
summary?
Holmes, a not-so-great-detective (on the police force) is teamed up with
his new partner with the inconspicuous name of Yoyonovich or somesuch.
Yoyo is secretly a robot. Yoyo was played by the great John Schuck in a
manner reminiscent of Hymie from "Get Smart". Holmes was played by some
"seen him before" guy.
The only gag I remember from it was that Yoyo had a built-in instamatic
camera. He would mash his nose to take a picture of what he was seeing,
then open his jacket to have the photo emerge from his shirt pocket.
From WP, here's the gag:

When asked about his previous assignment, he would reply,
"The bunco squad," then continue to repeat the phrase no
matter what the questioner said, as if he were a skipping
record.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Paul S Person
2019-11-14 17:32:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 06:39:48 -0800 (PST), Jack Bohn
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 12:11:29 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Kevrob
Which beget Bova and Ellison's "Brillo," which beget
ABC-TV's "Future Cop,"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Cop_(TV_series)
...though "Holmes and Yoyo" aired first.
Yoyo.. Yoyo. That sounds familiar. Where did he last work?
--
Are you referring to the cellist?
Sorry, that was a callout to an H&Y running joke, but I was assuming
without evidence that anyone actually watched the series.
I, for one, never even heard of it. Care to provide a brief
summary?
Holmes, a not-so-great-detective (on the police force) is teamed up with his new partner with the inconspicuous name of Yoyonovich or somesuch. Yoyo is secretly a robot. Yoyo was played by the great John Schuck in a manner reminiscent of Hymie from "Get Smart". Holmes was played by some "seen him before" guy.
The only gag I remember from it was that Yoyo had a built-in instamatic camera. He would mash his nose to take a picture of what he was seeing, then open his jacket to have the photo emerge from his shirt pocket.
The remake of /The Stepford Wives/ did something like that.

Except that the money came out of her mouth when she was used as an
ATM.

The remake, for those who skipped it, plays (to me) as if they had
taken the original film, held it up by its legs, shook it until all
the humor fell out of its pockets, and then used the humor to make
their movie.

Except for one homage towards the end, it is hilarious.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Jack Bohn
2019-11-14 19:49:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 06:39:48 -0800 (PST), Jack Bohn
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Kevrob
...though "Holmes and Yoyo" aired first.
Holmes, a not-so-great-detective (on the police force) is teamed up with his new partner with the inconspicuous name of Yoyonovich or somesuch. Yoyo is secretly a robot. Yoyo was played by the great John Schuck in a manner reminiscent of Hymie from "Get Smart". Holmes was played by some "seen him before" guy.
The only gag I remember from it was that Yoyo had a built-in instamatic camera. He would mash his nose to take a picture of what he was seeing, then open his jacket to have the photo emerge from his shirt pocket.
The remake of /The Stepford Wives/ did something like that.
Except that the money came out of her mouth when she was used as an
ATM.
The remake, for those who skipped it, plays (to me) as if they had
taken the original film, held it up by its legs, shook it until all
the humor fell out of its pockets, and then used the humor to make
their movie.
Except for one homage towards the end, it is hilarious.
I was going to ask if this was the remake with Brenda from "Rhoda", but that could get confusing, so I looked it up myself. Hers -that is, Julie Kavner's- was called "Revenge of the Stepford Wives", being too near in time to the original to pretend it didn't exist. Hmm... it starred Sharon Gless, who played the husband in the TV series of "Turnabout", in which the wife was played by John "Yoyo" Schuck, so it all ties together.

Now your turn, to say your remake had the star of the remake of "Bewitched" as a comedy, and hie off down your own rabbit hole...
--
-Jack
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-14 22:26:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
The remake of /The Stepford Wives/ did something like that.
...
Post by Paul S Person
The remake, for those who skipped it, plays (to me) as if they had
taken the original film, held it up by its legs, shook it until all
the humor fell out of its pockets, and then used the humor to make
their movie.
Well, good. Most remakes tend to do the opposite.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-11-14 22:57:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
The remake of /The Stepford Wives/ did something like that.
...
Post by Paul S Person
The remake, for those who skipped it, plays (to me) as if they had
taken the original film, held it up by its legs, shook it until all
the humor fell out of its pockets, and then used the humor to make
their movie.
Well, good. Most remakes tend to do the opposite.
Reminds me of a description of Will Cuppy (approx):

He read everything that had ever been written about a subject,
threw out everything that wasn't obviously ridiculous and then
wrote his essay.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-14 23:34:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
The remake of /The Stepford Wives/ did something like that.
...
Post by Paul S Person
The remake, for those who skipped it, plays (to me) as if they had
taken the original film, held it up by its legs, shook it until all
the humor fell out of its pockets, and then used the humor to make
their movie.
Well, good. Most remakes tend to do the opposite.
He read everything that had ever been written about a subject,
threw out everything that wasn't obviously ridiculous and then
wrote his essay.
Well, if ridiculosity was his thing, that was the way to go.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2019-11-15 17:43:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
The remake of /The Stepford Wives/ did something like that.
...
Post by Paul S Person
The remake, for those who skipped it, plays (to me) as if they had
taken the original film, held it up by its legs, shook it until all
the humor fell out of its pockets, and then used the humor to make
their movie.
Well, good. Most remakes tend to do the opposite.
True enough.

I've ... experienced ... three types of remake:

1. Bad. This is so much most of them that I /avoid/ most of them.
/Rollerball/. /Total Recall/.
2. Better than the original. /The Thomas Crown Affair/.
3. Different enough to be worth watching: /Night of the Living Dead/,
/The Manchurian Candidate/, /The Stepford Wives/, /War of the Worlds/.

All examples are, of course, IMHO. YMMV.

It can be several years after they come out that I even try watching
them. The number of "bad" examples comes from my habit of consulting
IMDb before doing so. This weeds out a /lot/ of clearly-bad remakes.

I actually rented the original /The Thomas Crown Affair/ and suffered
through it again to confirm that the remake was, indeed, better
(IMHO).

The differences don't have to be large, but frame-by-frame remakes
have never attracted me. Mostly they involve rethought characters and
other adjustments. And, of course, in one case, humor.

The difference in /War of the Worlds/ is mostly one of level: in the
George Pal version, we see a Cabinet Official, a two-star General, and
other high-ranking persons. The Spielberg remake is closer to the book
in that we don't see such persons but spend our time with The Rest of
Us. And, of course, it's machines have legs, although the cylinders
the come from in the book and the Pal version are missimg.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-15 20:07:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
The remake of /The Stepford Wives/ did something like that.
...
Post by Paul S Person
The remake, for those who skipped it, plays (to me) as if they had
taken the original film, held it up by its legs, shook it until all
the humor fell out of its pockets, and then used the humor to make
their movie.
Well, good. Most remakes tend to do the opposite.
True enough.
1. Bad. This is so much most of them that I /avoid/ most of them.
/Rollerball/. /Total Recall/.
2. Better than the original. /The Thomas Crown Affair/.
3. Different enough to be worth watching: /Night of the Living Dead/,
/The Manchurian Candidate/, /The Stepford Wives/, /War of the Worlds/.
All examples are, of course, IMHO. YMMV.
It can be several years after they come out that I even try watching
them. The number of "bad" examples comes from my habit of consulting
IMDb before doing so. This weeds out a /lot/ of clearly-bad remakes.
I actually rented the original /The Thomas Crown Affair/ and suffered
through it again to confirm that the remake was, indeed, better
(IMHO).
The differences don't have to be large, but frame-by-frame remakes
have never attracted me. Mostly they involve rethought characters and
other adjustments. And, of course, in one case, humor.
The difference in /War of the Worlds/ is mostly one of level: in the
George Pal version, we see a Cabinet Official, a two-star General, and
other high-ranking persons. The Spielberg remake is closer to the book
in that we don't see such persons but spend our time with The Rest of
Us. And, of course, it's machines have legs, although the cylinders
the come from in the book and the Pal version are missimg.
The thing about _WotW_ is that every version of it addresses some
fear felt by the author and/or his audience.

Wells's original novel was a protest against colonialism ("how
would you feel it it happened to you?")

Welles's 1938 broadcast played on the listeners' fear of Hitler,
which were not ill-founded.

Pal's film played on the viewers' fear of the USSR, at the
height of the Cold War.

It was followed by a television series (in the 1980s?? I can't
find anything about it on the Web, because there's a new BBC
series coming out and googling "War of the Worlds tv series" gets
a zillion references to it that push all other references off the
screen), which took up where the Pal movie left off; the Martians
weren't all dead, they were just in hibernation and had woken up
and started possessing human bodies. Kind of like the giant
cockroach in _Men in Black I.) It was playing on the viewers
fear of AIDS.

The Spielberg movie was a clone of the 911 attacks, and fear of
what might follow.

I shall have to read up on the BBC series, see what it plays on a
fear of.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-15 20:22:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Pal's film played on the viewers' fear of the USSR, at the
height of the Cold War.
It was followed by a television series (in the 1980s?? I can't
find anything about it on the Web, because there's a new BBC
series coming out and googling "War of the Worlds tv series" gets
a zillion references to it that push all other references off the
screen), which took up where the Pal movie left off; the Martians
weren't all dead, they were just in hibernation and had woken up
and started possessing human bodies. Kind of like the giant
cockroach in _Men in Black I.) It was playing on the viewers'
fear of AIDS.
1988. Found it on IMDB:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094578/?ref_=nv_sr_5?ref_=nv_sr_5

And it's on DVD. I may buy myself a Christmas present, or maybe
wait till DunDraCon money comes in.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dimensional Traveler
2019-11-15 21:09:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Pal's film played on the viewers' fear of the USSR, at the
height of the Cold War.
It was followed by a television series (in the 1980s?? I can't
find anything about it on the Web, because there's a new BBC
series coming out and googling "War of the Worlds tv series" gets
a zillion references to it that push all other references off the
screen), which took up where the Pal movie left off; the Martians
weren't all dead, they were just in hibernation and had woken up
and started possessing human bodies. Kind of like the giant
cockroach in _Men in Black I.) It was playing on the viewers'
fear of AIDS.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094578/?ref_=nv_sr_5?ref_=nv_sr_5
And it's on DVD. I may buy myself a Christmas present, or maybe
wait till DunDraCon money comes in.
I watched it when it originally aired. There is a huge change in the
premise between the two seasons.
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-15 21:33:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Pal's film played on the viewers' fear of the USSR, at the
height of the Cold War.
It was followed by a television series (in the 1980s?? I can't
find anything about it on the Web, because there's a new BBC
series coming out and googling "War of the Worlds tv series" gets
a zillion references to it that push all other references off the
screen), which took up where the Pal movie left off; the Martians
weren't all dead, they were just in hibernation and had woken up
and started possessing human bodies. Kind of like the giant
cockroach in _Men in Black I.) It was playing on the viewers'
fear of AIDS.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094578/?ref_=nv_sr_5?ref_=nv_sr_5
And it's on DVD. I may buy myself a Christmas present, or maybe
wait till DunDraCon money comes in.
I watched it when it originally aired. There is a huge change in the
premise between the two seasons.
Ah, interesting. I never saw the second season because our
television died.

How did it die? you may ask. We had an elderly cat who liked to
sit in the highest place in the apartment, and in those days that
was the top of the television (set on top of a tall bookcase).
And having achieved that lofty station, she didn't want to have
to descend to floor level to use the litter box, and .........
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-16 00:03:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Pal's film played on the viewers' fear of the USSR, at the
height of the Cold War.
It was followed by a television series (in the 1980s?? I can't
find anything about it on the Web, because there's a new BBC
series coming out and googling "War of the Worlds tv series" gets
a zillion references to it that push all other references off the
screen), which took up where the Pal movie left off; the Martians
weren't all dead, they were just in hibernation and had woken up
and started possessing human bodies. Kind of like the giant
cockroach in _Men in Black I.) It was playing on the viewers'
fear of AIDS.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094578/?ref_=nv_sr_5?ref_=nv_sr_5
And it's on DVD. I may buy myself a Christmas present, or maybe
wait till DunDraCon money comes in.
I watched it when it originally aired. There is a huge change in the
premise between the two seasons.
Isn't it mainly like _The Invaders_? With more horror stufff.
Quadibloc
2019-11-14 09:52:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
He wrote the mismatched cop
buddy movie decades before Hollywood caught on to the formula. Truly a
man ahead of his time.
I am surprised to hear this. I know that there was a rash of mismatched cop buddy
movies for a while, long after the publication of The Caves of Steel. However, I
had always assumed that this was a formula that was old when Asimov wrote, even if
it happened to come back into fashion later on (even in science-fiction, what with
the movie "Alien Nation").

John Savard
David Johnston
2019-11-14 20:36:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by David Johnston
He wrote the mismatched cop
buddy movie decades before Hollywood caught on to the formula. Truly a
man ahead of his time.
I am surprised to hear this. I know that there was a rash of mismatched cop buddy
movies for a while, long after the publication of The Caves of Steel. However, I
had always assumed that this was a formula that was old when Asimov wrote, even if
it happened to come back into fashion later on (even in science-fiction, what with
the movie "Alien Nation").
John Savard
When I think back to all the crime movies I'm familiar with from the 40s
and 50s and I've watched quite a few, none of them follow the odd couple
formula.
Quadibloc
2019-11-14 21:05:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
When I think back to all the crime movies I'm familiar with from the 40s
and 50s and I've watched quite a few, none of them follow the odd couple
formula.
What I think of as the forumla is where two unlike people are partnered because
a higher authority thinks it will do one of them some good.

So, while the two officers in "Car 54, Where Are You" do contrast with each
other, I would admit it is not an example.

John Savard
Moriarty
2019-11-14 21:17:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Quadibloc
Post by David Johnston
He wrote the mismatched cop
buddy movie decades before Hollywood caught on to the formula. Truly a
man ahead of his time.
I am surprised to hear this. I know that there was a rash of mismatched cop buddy
movies for a while, long after the publication of The Caves of Steel. However, I
had always assumed that this was a formula that was old when Asimov wrote, even if
it happened to come back into fashion later on (even in science-fiction, what with
the movie "Alien Nation").
John Savard
When I think back to all the crime movies I'm familiar with from the 40s
and 50s and I've watched quite a few, none of them follow the odd couple
formula.
I'm blanking but I'm fairly sure a few early westerns did.

Not to mention Holmes and Watson.

-Moriarty
David Johnston
2019-11-14 23:42:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Moriarty
Post by David Johnston
Post by Quadibloc
Post by David Johnston
He wrote the mismatched cop
buddy movie decades before Hollywood caught on to the formula. Truly a
man ahead of his time.
I am surprised to hear this. I know that there was a rash of mismatched cop buddy
movies for a while, long after the publication of The Caves of Steel. However, I
had always assumed that this was a formula that was old when Asimov wrote, even if
it happened to come back into fashion later on (even in science-fiction, what with
the movie "Alien Nation").
John Savard
When I think back to all the crime movies I'm familiar with from the 40s
and 50s and I've watched quite a few, none of them follow the odd couple
formula.
I'm blanking but I'm fairly sure a few early westerns did.
Not to mention Holmes and Watson.
The detective and narrator combo has a very different dynamic.
Kevrob
2019-11-14 23:55:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Moriarty
Post by David Johnston
Post by Quadibloc
Post by David Johnston
He wrote the mismatched cop
buddy movie decades before Hollywood caught on to the formula. Truly a
man ahead of his time.
I am surprised to hear this. I know that there was a rash of mismatched cop buddy
movies for a while, long after the publication of The Caves of Steel. However, I
had always assumed that this was a formula that was old when Asimov wrote, even if
it happened to come back into fashion later on (even in science-fiction, what with
the movie "Alien Nation").
John Savard
When I think back to all the crime movies I'm familiar with from the 40s
and 50s and I've watched quite a few, none of them follow the odd couple
formula.
I'm blanking but I'm fairly sure a few early westerns did.
Not to mention Holmes and Watson.
The detective and narrator combo has a very different dynamic.
Holmes and Watson were also complimentary. The sidekick
who fills in the main hero's personality lacks, or has
skills his partner hasn't developed, is H & W to a "T."

[quote]

Can I be complimentary, my dear Watson? {Times headline}

{Behind a paywall, but not at The Australian, which used:}

May I introduce Dr Watson, the unsung hero of Victorian crime

....

Holmes is flashy, brilliant and extraordinary, but it is Watson's blunter,
quieter virtues of simple decency that we are called on to admire and it is
his voice that we trust.

....


Ben Macintyre
December 17 2009, 12:01am,
The Times

[/quote]

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/inquirer/may-i-introduce-dr-watson-the-unsung-hero-of-victorian-crime/news-story/4d7a40d90255c3740ddf2fbaf94bb91e

Kevin R
Quadibloc
2019-11-16 00:31:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Holmes and Watson were also complimentary.
Surely you mean complementary. They often said unkind things about each other.

John Savard
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-16 00:54:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Kevrob
Holmes and Watson were also complimentary.
Surely you mean complementary. They often said unkind things about each other.
John Savard
Versions vary, but generally Mr Sherlock Holmes and Dr. John Watson
are portrayed as close friends. As for complementary... well, Watson
provided medical treadment as necessary, and a pistol likewise.
Not drugs, since Holmes could satisfy that vice at any pharmacist.
Kevrob
2019-11-16 04:43:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Kevrob
Holmes and Watson were also complimentary.
Surely you mean complementary. They often said unkind things
about each other.
Quite. They did give each other compliments, but they slagged
each other off, also.

Kevin R
David Johnston
2019-11-16 06:46:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 13:36:37 -0700, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Quadibloc
Post by David Johnston
He wrote the mismatched cop
buddy movie decades before Hollywood caught on to the formula. Truly a
man ahead of his time.
I am surprised to hear this. I know that there was a rash of mismatched cop buddy
movies for a while, long after the publication of The Caves of Steel. However, I
had always assumed that this was a formula that was old when Asimov wrote, even if
it happened to come back into fashion later on (even in science-fiction, what with
the movie "Alien Nation").
John Savard
When I think back to all the crime movies I'm familiar with from the 40s
and 50s and I've watched quite a few, none of them follow the odd couple
formula.
I was going to mention /It's a Wonderful World/, but that was from
1939, so it's not in your timeframe.
And neither of them were cops, which also disqualifies the Thin Man
movies.

Joy Beeson
2019-11-14 05:03:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Nov 2019 23:39:35 -0700, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
And in the case of I, Robot, they optioned the title to keep the Asimov
estate from suing them for their use of the Three Laws IP in a script
that was initially entitled "Hardwired". The film "I, Robot" is not an
adaptation of any specific Asimov story. It's just a reuse of the
title. Again. Hence my joke.
When I saw "I, Robot", I thought it was a remake of "With Folded
Hands".
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
Kevrob
2019-11-13 18:48:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
It's almost as if they weren't adapting The Bladerunner at all.
I believe you are referring to the Alan Nourse novel of the same
name. As I understand it, a title cannot be copyrighted. Alan Nourse
and James White both wrote novels titled _Star Surgeon_. However,
movie studios, who deal in amounts of money orders of magnitude
greater than authors except those at the J. K. Rowlings level, will
sometimes buy the rights to a book whose title they want to use for
an unrelated movie. The Karate Kid was a character in the DC comics
Legion of Super Heroes; he was somewhat like _Magnus: Robot Fighter_
in that he had no super powers as such but had trained in martial
arts to the point where could smash metal. The producers of the
movie _The Karate Kid_ bought the rights to the character to prevent
legal problems.
DC's "Karate Kid," a member of "The Legion of Super-Heroes" in the 30th
Century, with whom a time-traveling Superboy used to adventure with,
had a TRADEMARK, first for things like Slurpee cups at 7-11,* ...

*[Note: Val may not have gotten his own Slurpee cup. Other Legionnaires
did.

http://legionofsuperbloggers.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-legion-of-slurpee-heroes.html ]

.... and then the logo for his his own comic, ten 10 years later.

KK was in the LSH from 1966.

https://www.comics.org/issue/29621/cover/4/
Post by p***@hotmail.com
David Gerrold's tribbles were originally called "fuzzies" in his _Star Trek_
script, and the studio lawyers had him change it since H. Beam Piper had
used that name in _Little Fuzzy_ and sequels.
It's about the merch, as much as it is the original work.
By paying off DC (or DC Warner doing a favor for Columbia Pictures)
the film producers cleared the way to sell authorized merch.

Kevin R
Quadibloc
2019-11-13 04:31:34 UTC
Reply
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Post by David Johnston
That pales by comparison with Bladerunner, which totally failed to have
a plague and a smuggler of medical supplies to doctors providing illegal
care to poor people who didn't agree to be sterilized for legal access
to medical care. It's almost as if they weren't adapting The
Bladerunner at all.
I wouldn't have gotten the joke were it not for some replies... indeed, the movie Bladerunner _was_ an adaptation of Philip K. Dick's novel, "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" instead of an adaptation of the Alan Nourse novel, "The Bladerunner" of which I was not aware, should people reading a USENET archive that somehow survives a global thermonuclear war be in danger of confusion.

John Savard
David Johnston
2019-11-13 06:44:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by David Johnston
That pales by comparison with Bladerunner, which totally failed to have
a plague and a smuggler of medical supplies to doctors providing illegal
care to poor people who didn't agree to be sterilized for legal access
to medical care. It's almost as if they weren't adapting The
Bladerunner at all.
I wouldn't have gotten the joke were it not for some replies... indeed, the movie Bladerunner _was_ an adaptation of Philip K. Dick's novel, "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" instead of an adaptation of the Alan Nourse novel, "The Bladerunner" of which I was not aware,
Which would make a great movie, except now they don't have a title for
it. It's also a book I by far prefer to DADoES.
D B Davis
2019-11-11 18:42:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:24:47 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Post by Johnny1A
At the extreme, you end up with nonsense like 'the mundane manifesto'.
There was nothing inherently wrong with the mundane manifesto except that
its loudest adherants were both entirely humourless and impressively
ignorant, down to using as examples of Mundane SF books that violated its
tenets of MSF.
The greater part of the works of Philip K. Dick.
1984
Neuromancer
Blade Runner
Timescape
That list also serendipitously ranks those stories and the movie from my
favorite to least favorite. Although _Timescape_'s been attempted by me
a couple of times its inherent adultery inevitably causes me to bounce
off of it. Presumably _Timescape_'s one an example of a story that
violates the tenets of MSF.
Note.
[1] https://sfgenics.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/geoff-ryman-et-al-the-mundane-manifesto/
Don't Philip K. Dick stories mostly deal with android civil rights
in the colonisation of Mars, without looking much at how any of that works?
Androids distinguishable from humans only in property law...
Nope. That is just one.
He wrote more than 40 novels that covered a wide range of themes.
Hmm... I definitely had the impression that stories kept getting
set on Mars and with androids when that wasn't particularly part of
the plot. Oh, and people who are dead but still making phone calls
and writing letters, such as through a medium. I think that does
get explained, since death has tax advantages. Douglas Adams used
that too... sadly not in real, er, life.
Although _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?_ mentions Mars in
passing, it uses Earth as a setting. An Earth blanketed in radioactive
dust, which seems eerily similar to the air pollutant pall that smothers
too many cities today. Man also killed off most animals in the story,
which again seems all too plausible in our real life future.
The few animals that remain alive are precious to humans. Humans
make pet androids, electric sheep for instance, to meet a demand, which
always exceeds supply.
The androids lack empathy. They tear the legs off of a rare living
spider, for instance, to amuse themselves.
When the stakes become high enough, psychopaths act chameleon-like
to blend in. Psychos don't understand why it upsets people to watch the
legs get pulled off of a spider one by one. But if an action has
unintended consequences, if pulling off legs draws unwanted attention
from a bounty hunter, then the andy is smart enough to not do it in the
first place. Instead, it feigns empathy to become more human-like, fit
in, and survive.



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
D B Davis
2019-11-11 18:45:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:24:47 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Post by Johnny1A
At the extreme, you end up with nonsense like 'the mundane manifesto'.
There was nothing inherently wrong with the mundane manifesto except that
its loudest adherants were both entirely humourless and impressively
ignorant, down to using as examples of Mundane SF books that violated its
tenets of MSF.
The greater part of the works of Philip K. Dick.
1984
Neuromancer
Blade Runner
Timescape
That list also serendipitously ranks those stories and the movie from my
favorite to least favorite. Although _Timescape_'s been attempted by me
a couple of times its inherent adultery inevitably causes me to bounce
off of it. Presumably _Timescape_'s one an example of a story that
violates the tenets of MSF.
Note.
[1] https://sfgenics.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/geoff-ryman-et-al-the-mundane-manifesto/
Don't Philip K. Dick stories mostly deal with android civil rights
in the colonisation of Mars, without looking much at how any of that works?
Androids distinguishable from humans only in property law...
Nope. That is just one.
He wrote more than 40 novels that covered a wide range of themes.
Hmm... I definitely had the impression that stories kept getting
set on Mars and with androids when that wasn't particularly part of
the plot. Oh, and people who are dead but still making phone calls
and writing letters, such as through a medium. I think that does
get explained, since death has tax advantages. Douglas Adams used
that too... sadly not in real, er, life.
Although _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?_ mentions Mars in
passing, it uses Earth as a setting. An Earth blanketed in radioactive
dust, which seems eerily similar to the air pollutant pall that smothers
too many cities today. Man also killed off most animals in the story,
which again seems all too plausible in our real life future.
The few animals that remain alive are precious to humans. Humans
make pet androids, electric sheep for instance, to meet a demand, which
always exceeds supply.
There's also another type of android, which looks human. These
androids lack empathy. They tear the legs off of a rare living spider,
for instance, to amuse themselves.
When the stakes become high enough, psychopaths act chameleon-like
to blend in. Psychos don't understand why it upsets people to watch the
legs get pulled off of a spider one by one. But if an action has
unintended consequences, if pulling off legs draws unwanted attention
from a bounty hunter, then the andy is smart enough to not do it in the
first place. Instead, it feigns empathy to become more human-like, fit
in, and survive.



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-11 03:21:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:24:47 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Don't Philip K. Dick stories mostly deal with android civil rights
in the colonisation of Mars, without looking much at how any of that works?
Androids distinguishable from humans only in property law...
Nope. That is just one.
He wrote more than 40 novels that covered a wide range of themes.
The only PKD novel I can actually remember anything about is an
early one, _Eye in the Sky_, in which several people are caught
up in a handwavium accident and spend some time walking through
each other's worldviews. Since one of the group is a religious
nutcase and another is a woman who wants to abolish everything
that Isn't Quite Nice, they find themselves getting periodically
confused until they wake up.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Johnny1A
2019-11-11 05:48:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Johnny1A
At the extreme, you end up with nonsense like 'the mundane manifesto'.
There was nothing inherently wrong with the mundane manifesto except that
its loudest adherants were both entirely humourless and impressively
ignorant, down to using as examples of Mundane SF books that violated its
tenets of MSF.
The problem was the 'manifesto' part. If the call had been to say that there was a role for that sort of story in SF, fine. I agree completely. But instead, it was phrased and presented as almost a moral imperative, or a function of maturity, it had overtones of an attack on the very idea of SF that wasn't mundane.
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