Discussion:
Assassin's in SF
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a***@gmail.com
2019-11-02 08:39:13 UTC
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I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.

Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that isn't the world we are living in.

Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor

"Life is suffering"
Chrysi Cat
2019-11-02 09:15:02 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that isn't the world we are living in.
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"Life is suffering"
OK, this one I can immediately think of /one/ example. As long as you're
not against /Joe's World/ in any way, the first book is out and out
titled "The Philosophical Strangler". And it is /not/ a case of a
non-protagonist title.

I'm pretty sure it's even rather a richer vein than anything this side
of MilSF as well, but that's the first one I can think of.
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
D B Davis
2019-11-02 11:35:54 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties.
The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral
damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much
of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that
isn't the world we are living in.
The antihero in _Molôn Labé!_ (Boston T Party) is an assassin. He kills
a judge and a Senator.



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
a***@gmail.com
2019-11-02 12:23:40 UTC
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Post by D B Davis
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties.
The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral
damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much
of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that
isn't the world we are living in.
The antihero in _Molôn Labé!_ (Boston T Party) is an assassin. He kills
a judge and a Senator.
Were the judge and senator corrupt or guilty in some way, or were they law abiding citizens? From my understanding most people are corrupt in some way but that does not justify killing.

Right to life is a basic right. Violence should only be used in defence. But that is not the world we live in. In the real world, as long as you benefit and you can get away with it, you should do it.

Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor

"Life is suffering"
Post by D B Davis

Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
D B Davis
2019-11-02 12:55:17 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties.
The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral
damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much
of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that
isn't the world we are living in.
The antihero in _Molôn Labé!_ (Boston T Party) is an assassin. He kills
a judge and a Senator.
Were the judge and senator corrupt or guilty in some way, or were they law
abiding citizens? From my understanding most people are corrupt in some way
but that does not justify killing.
Right to life is a basic right. Violence should only be used in defence.
But that is not the world we live in. In the real world, as long as you
benefit and you can get away with it, you should do it.
The judge and Senator were both cruel abusive tyrants who took advantage
of the powerless. The judge and Senator asked for it; they clearly
deserved what they got. That's how Redemptive Violence suckers its
audience into rooting for violence as a solution.



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Chris Buckley
2019-11-02 14:31:57 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that isn't the world we are living in.
Abhinav Lal
Major fantasy series: Robin Hobb's Farseer series beginning with
_Assassin's Apprentice_

Often a trope in time travel conflicts, eg. some parts of the science
fiction romance _This is How You Lose the Time War_ (perhaps good
enough to be up for awards, much better than Gladstone's other novel
this year)

Appears very often in Asian SF, possibly because of ninja tradition. Any
number of light novels, manga, anime.

Chris
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-02 15:24:40 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties.
The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral
damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something
wrong.
Post by a***@gmail.com
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much
of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that
isn't the world we are living in.
Post by a***@gmail.com
Abhinav Lal
Major fantasy series: Robin Hobb's Farseer series beginning with
_Assassin's Apprentice_
Often a trope in time travel conflicts, eg. some parts of the science
fiction romance _This is How You Lose the Time War_ (perhaps good
enough to be up for awards, much better than Gladstone's other novel
this year)
Appears very often in Asian SF, possibly because of ninja tradition. Any
number of light novels, manga, anime.
Good heavens, half-a-dozen responses and nobody has yet mentioned
Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos? He spends the first several books
in a long series as an assassin-for-hire, that being the only niche
he can occupy in Dragaeran society because of his race (human).

Or is somebody drawing a hard line between SF and F?

There were supposed to be seventeen books in all, or maybe it was
eighteen. Did Brust ever write them all? I stopped reading them
some time ago, not because of lack of interest but because of
lack of funds. Somebody bring me up to date, please?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2019-11-02 16:13:26 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Good heavens, half-a-dozen responses and nobody has yet mentioned
Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos?
Vlad showed up in the old thread I referenced,
so I avoided duplication.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.arts.sf.written/3iYPGXsPp2c/QLNRyP-3zLgJ

Kevin R
David Goldfarb
2019-11-03 04:16:22 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Good heavens, half-a-dozen responses and nobody has yet mentioned
Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos?
There were supposed to be seventeen books in all, or maybe it was
eighteen. Did Brust ever write them all? I stopped reading them
some time ago, not because of lack of interest but because of
lack of funds. Somebody bring me up to date, please?
According to Brust himself, the plan is a total of nineteen: one
per House, bookended at the beginning by _Taltos_ and at the end
by one called _The Final Contract_. The most recently published
was _Vallista_. Three houses lack a book: Lyorn, Tsalmoth, and
Chreotha; and of course _The Final Contract_ is not yet written.
--
David Goldfarb |"If I haven't killed you yet, I'll take care of
***@gmail.com | it right away."
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- S. P. Somtow
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-03 05:36:11 UTC
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Post by David Goldfarb
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Good heavens, half-a-dozen responses and nobody has yet mentioned
Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos?
There were supposed to be seventeen books in all, or maybe it was
eighteen. Did Brust ever write them all? I stopped reading them
some time ago, not because of lack of interest but because of
lack of funds. Somebody bring me up to date, please?
According to Brust himself, the plan is a total of nineteen: one
per House, bookended at the beginning by _Taltos_ and at the end
by one called _The Final Contract_. The most recently published
was _Vallista_. Three houses lack a book: Lyorn, Tsalmoth, and
Chreotha; and of course _The Final Contract_ is not yet written.
Thanks. Someday, God willing, I'll be able to catch up.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2019-11-02 15:55:04 UTC
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Post by Chris Buckley
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that isn't the world we are living in.
Abhinav Lal
Major fantasy series: Robin Hobb's Farseer series beginning with
_Assassin's Apprentice_
Often a trope in time travel conflicts, eg. some parts of the science
fiction romance _This is How You Lose the Time War_ (perhaps good
enough to be up for awards, much better than Gladstone's other novel
this year)
Appears very often in Asian SF, possibly because of ninja tradition. Any
number of light novels, manga, anime.
from the archives:

"Assassins in science fiction"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.arts.sf.written/3iYPGXsPp2c/QLNRyP-3zLgJ

One of the posters poits out assassination is a big plot
point in Herbert's "Dune."

More philosophical fantasy than SF;

Dell Ammo in "The Jehovah Contract" by Victor Koman.
(I wonder if Pullman ever read that?)

Kevin R
D B Davis
2019-11-03 15:43:46 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is
an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties.
The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral
damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something
wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much
of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that
isn't the world we are living in.
Abhinav Lal
Major fantasy series: Robin Hobb's Farseer series beginning with
_Assassin's Apprentice_
Often a trope in time travel conflicts, eg. some parts of the science
fiction romance _This is How You Lose the Time War_ (perhaps good
enough to be up for awards, much better than Gladstone's other novel
this year)
Appears very often in Asian SF, possibly because of ninja tradition. Any
number of light novels, manga, anime.
"Assassins in science fiction"
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.arts.sf.written/3iYPGXsPp2c/QLNRyP-3zLgJ
One of the posters poits out assassination is a big plot
point in Herbert's "Dune."
More philosophical fantasy than SF;
Dell Ammo in "The Jehovah Contract" by Victor Koman.
(I wonder if Pullman ever read that?)
Post by Chris Buckley
I remember a story I read ages ago (in Analog?) deciding that the entire
country of Switzerland was just full of assassins, which was why they
were never successfully invaded.
Sound familiar to anyone?
How about it? Does anyone know the answer to this YASID?
Post by Kevrob
Post by Chris Buckley
Richard L Hamer
Dune. "The art of Kanly lives on".
In my chronoplane novels -- The Fall of the Republic, Rogue
Emperor, and The Empire of Time -- my hero is a assassin-polymath;
his masters are in too much of a hurry to save the world from an
unexplained future catastrophe, so they prefer to kill anyone
who gets in their way. My assassin is psychologically
manipulated to feel very pleased with himself when he's killed
someone, until the cumulative effect almost paralyzes him.
I was thinking consciously and cynically about James Bond and
various other "cool" killers, and made my Jerry Pierce
superficially cool also. But even that was really a facade
created for him by his conditioners.
Fleming's chain-smoking Bond is literally "cool:"

..."The office was very jealous although they didn’t
know what the job was. All they knew was that I was to work
with a Double O. Of course you're our heroes. I was enchanted."
[said sexy Vesper, whom M assigned to work with Bond.]
Bond frowned. "It's not difficult to get a Double O number
if you're prepared to kill people," he said. "That's all the
meaning it has. It's nothing to be particularly proud of. I've
got the corpses of a Japanese cipher expert in New York and a
Norwegian double agent in Stockholm to thank for being a
Double O. Probably quite decent people. They just got caught
up in the gale of the world like that Yugoslav that Tito bumped
off. It's a confusing business but if it's one’s profession,
one does what one's told. How do you like the grated egg with
your caviar?"
"It's a wonderful combination," she said. "I'm loving my
dinner. It seems a shame . . ." She stopped, warned by a cold
look in Bond’s eye.
"If it wasn't for the job, we wouldn't be here," he said.
Suddenly he regretted the intimacy of their dinner and of
their talk. He felt he had said too much and that what was
only a working relationship had become confused.
"Let's consider what has to be done," he said in a
matter-of-fact voice. "I'd better explain what I’m going to
try and do and how you can help. Which isn't very much I'm
afraid," he added.
"Now these are the basic facts." He proceeded to sketch
out the plan and enumerate the various contingencies which
faced them.
The maître d'hôtel supervised the serving of the second
course and then as they ate the delicious food, Bond continued.
She listened to him coldly, but with attentive obedience.
She felt thoroughly deflated by his harshness, while admitting
to herself that she should have paid more heed to the warning
of Head of S.
"He's a dedicated man," her chief had said when he gave
her the assignment. "Don't imagine this is going to be any
fun. He thinks of nothing but the job on hand and, while
it's on, he’s absolute hell to work for. But he's an expert
and there aren't many about, so you won't be wasting your time.
He's a good-looking chap, but don't fall for him. I don't
think he's got much heart. Anyway, good luck and don't get hurt."
...

_Casino Royale_ (Fleming)



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Stephen Harker
2019-11-04 09:14:01 UTC
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Post by D B Davis
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is
an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties.
The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral
damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something
wrong.
I remember a story I read ages ago (in Analog?) deciding that the entire
country of Switzerland was just full of assassins, which was why they
were never successfully invaded.
Sound familiar to anyone?
How about it? Does anyone know the answer to this YASID?
The story was a short by Eric Vinicoff and Marcia Martin, in *Analog*
June 1975, titled _Swiss Movement_.

See http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?50927.
--
Stephen Harker ***@netspace.net.au
was: http://sjharker.customer.netspace.net.au/
now: http://members.iinet.net.au/~***@netspace.net.au/
or: http://members.iinet.net.au/~sjharker_nbn/
D B Davis
2019-11-05 03:20:52 UTC
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Post by Stephen Harker
Post by D B Davis
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is
an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties.
The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral
damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something
wrong.
I remember a story I read ages ago (in Analog?) deciding that the entire
country of Switzerland was just full of assassins, which was why they
were never successfully invaded.
Sound familiar to anyone?
How about it? Does anyone know the answer to this YASID?
The story was a short by Eric Vinicoff and Marcia Martin, in *Analog*
June 1975, titled _Swiss Movement_.
See http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?50927.
Wunderbar! This story rhymes with "A Ticket to Tranai" (Sheckley) [1].
"Swiss Movement" replaces Tranai's explosive Presidential Seal with
citizen assassins who target would be invaders in high places to keep
the invaders on the straight and narrow.

Note.

[1] https://archive.org/stream/galaxymagazine-1955-10/Galaxy_1955_10#page/n7/mode/2up



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
D B Davis
2019-11-05 18:59:05 UTC
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Post by D B Davis
Post by Stephen Harker
Post by D B Davis
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is
an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties.
The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral
damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something
wrong.
I remember a story I read ages ago (in Analog?) deciding that the entire
country of Switzerland was just full of assassins, which was why they
were never successfully invaded.
Sound familiar to anyone?
How about it? Does anyone know the answer to this YASID?
The story was a short by Eric Vinicoff and Marcia Martin, in *Analog*
June 1975, titled _Swiss Movement_.
See http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?50927.
Wunderbar! This story rhymes with "A Ticket to Tranai" (Sheckley) [1].
"Swiss Movement" replaces Tranai's explosive Presidential Seal with
citizen assassins who target would be invaders in high places to keep
the invaders on the straight and narrow.
Note.
[1] https://archive.org/stream/galaxymagazine-1955-10/Galaxy_1955_10#page/n7/m
ode/2up

With another wicked electoral emotional vortex [1] headed America's way,
it's only sensible to ask, "What on Earth will the mob do this time?"
One takeaway from "Swiss Movement" may answer my question. "He with the
greatest intuition rules."

Note.

[1] Cleon is a wicked journalist, a man who disseminates for money
falsehoods calculated to produce envy, hatred, suspicion and
confusion. At least that is what I believe Cleon to be; I have
caught him lying myself. But it does not matter for purposes
of the present argument whether my judgment of Cleon is
correct or not. The point is that my honest friend fully
agreed with it. "After Priggery-What?" - C S Lewis.



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Stephen Harker
2019-11-06 10:15:22 UTC
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Post by D B Davis
Post by Stephen Harker
Post by D B Davis
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is
an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties.
The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral
damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something
wrong.
I remember a story I read ages ago (in Analog?) deciding that the entire
country of Switzerland was just full of assassins, which was why they
were never successfully invaded.
Sound familiar to anyone?
How about it? Does anyone know the answer to this YASID?
The story was a short by Eric Vinicoff and Marcia Martin, in *Analog*
June 1975, titled _Swiss Movement_.
See http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?50927.
Wunderbar! This story rhymes with "A Ticket to Tranai" (Sheckley) [1].
"Swiss Movement" replaces Tranai's explosive Presidential Seal with
citizen assassins who target would be invaders in high places to keep
the invaders on the straight and narrow.
Glad to be of help. I vaguely recalled the story and started, by guess,
in January 1974 and worked my way forward.

I am not sure why gnus stuffed up the From in that post. It was from a
machine running a later Fedora, but the settings had worked for a long
while in older linux setups. It will require some investigation.
--
Stephen Harker ***@netspace.net.au
was: http://sjharker.customer.netspace.net.au/
now: http://members.iinet.net.au/~***@netspace.net.au/
or: http://members.iinet.net.au/~sjharker_nbn/
Paul S Person
2019-11-02 17:14:55 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that isn't the world we are living in.
/All My Sins Remembered/, perhaps?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Gene Wirchenko
2019-11-07 04:54:26 UTC
Reply
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On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 10:14:55 -0700, Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that isn't the world we are living in.
/All My Sins Remembered/, perhaps?
Ooh! I have not thought of that one in a while.

One of Modessitt's (_The Ecologic Envoy_) starts with the main
character committing a multiple assassination.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-11-02 17:19:35 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties.
The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral
damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something
wrong.
Huh. It seems to me there are so many that it's practically a stock
type in SF. It's true that we often do encounter them during crises
of conscience.

There were several, including the Patrician in his early years, on Discworld.

Gin Blanco in Urban Fantasy comes to mind. (Though I couldn't take
the repeated info-dumps any more and jumped ship). There are several
in Lindsay Buroker's second world fantasies. Lori Adams in Rosier's
"Star Assassin" series. (Though she gets yanked into intersteller
adventure rather quickly). Queen Samara of the Rogue Coalition in
Mihalik's "Rogue Queen" series is another.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Dan Tilque
2019-11-02 18:51:00 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin. >
Huh. It seems to me there are so many that it's practically a stock
type in SF.
Now it i,s what with ninjas and all, but hasn't always been. I do
remember an assassin protag from an SF book I read back in the 70s,
which I think would have made it one of the early examples in the genre.
I can't remember the author/title but do remember the opening scene.

The guy is preparing to assassinate one of the leaders of the company
that has a monopoly on interstellar travel. He's set up with a rifle
within shooting distance of the platform where those leaders are going
to open a new planet to their grid. (Interstellar ships traverse a tube
of some kind and the terminals of those tubes are on planetary
surfaces.) While he's waiting for his target to be "ready", he examines
some of the unusual coins he was paid in. The coins were issued by that
company (which is effectively the interstellar government) and the
pictures on the coins serve to introduce several of the potential
targets of the assassin.

At any rate, the protag has been hired by a Mysterious Stranger to
assassinate one of those leaders, but leaves the choice as to which one
to the assassin. He decides to assassinate the head honcho.

Hmm, this post has morphed into a YASID...
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
There were several, including the Patrician in his early years, on Discworld.
All the Ankh-Morpork upperclass send their kids to Assassin's Guild
School because it's the best education in town. Mainly because it
prepares the kids to foil assassination attempts, rather than they want
their kids to actually go out and kill people.

One Assassin School student was the protagonist of _Pyramids_, whose
name I'm blanking on. He never kills anyone, but ... well to say what he
does kill would be a spoiler.
--
Dan Tilque
p***@hotmail.com
2019-11-03 17:10:09 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dan Tilque
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin. >
Huh. It seems to me there are so many that it's practically a stock
type in SF.
Now it i,s what with ninjas and all, but hasn't always been. I do
remember an assassin protag from an SF book I read back in the 70s,
which I think would have made it one of the early examples in the genre.
I can't remember the author/title but do remember the opening scene.
The guy is preparing to assassinate one of the leaders of the company
that has a monopoly on interstellar travel. He's set up with a rifle
within shooting distance of the platform where those leaders are going
to open a new planet to their grid. (Interstellar ships traverse a tube
of some kind and the terminals of those tubes are on planetary
surfaces.) While he's waiting for his target to be "ready", he examines
some of the unusual coins he was paid in. The coins were issued by that
company (which is effectively the interstellar government) and the
pictures on the coins serve to introduce several of the potential
targets of the assassin.
At any rate, the protag has been hired by a Mysterious Stranger to
assassinate one of those leaders, but leaves the choice as to which one
to the assassin. He decides to assassinate the head honcho.
Hmm, this post has morphed into a YASID...
I believe that this is _Star Bridge_, a 1955 novel by Jack Williamson
and James Gunn.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Dan Tilque
2019-11-03 19:48:59 UTC
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Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Dan Tilque
I do
remember an assassin protag from an SF book I read back in the 70s,
which I think would have made it one of the early examples in the genre.
I can't remember the author/title but do remember the opening scene.
The guy is preparing to assassinate one of the leaders of the company
that has a monopoly on interstellar travel. He's set up with a rifle
within shooting distance of the platform where those leaders are going
to open a new planet to their grid. (Interstellar ships traverse a tube
of some kind and the terminals of those tubes are on planetary
surfaces.) While he's waiting for his target to be "ready", he examines
some of the unusual coins he was paid in. The coins were issued by that
company (which is effectively the interstellar government) and the
pictures on the coins serve to introduce several of the potential
targets of the assassin.
At any rate, the protag has been hired by a Mysterious Stranger to
assassinate one of those leaders, but leaves the choice as to which one
to the assassin. He decides to assassinate the head honcho.
Hmm, this post has morphed into a YASID...
I believe that this is _Star Bridge_, a 1955 novel by Jack Williamson
and James Gunn.
Yes, that's it. Don't remember most of the book, but for some reason
that early scene stuck with me.
--
Dan Tilque
Default User
2019-11-02 20:31:01 UTC
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http://www.angryflower.com/247.html


Brian
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-02 22:52:03 UTC
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Post by Default User
http://www.angryflower.com/247.html
Bravo.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2019-11-03 02:45:57 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Default User
http://www.angryflower.com/247.html
Bravo.
If I were a wealthy philanthropist, I would fund
the distribution of that cartoon as a poster, for
every schoolroom and office in the English-speaking
(and -writing0 world to display!

http://www.angryflower.com/archive.html

Kevin R
Paul S Person
2019-11-03 17:58:14 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Default User
http://www.angryflower.com/247.html
Bravo.
If I were a wealthy philanthropist, I would fund
the distribution of that cartoon as a poster, for
every schoolroom and office in the English-speaking
(and -writing0 world to display!
http://www.angryflower.com/archive.html
My trusty Word Book II (a spelling/hyphenation dictiionary) gives
three rules for the apostrophe:

1. To form possessives of nouns and some pronouns (Fred's book, Mars'
orbit).
2. To mark missing letters (can't).
3. To form plurals of letters, numbers, and symbols (1930's, @'s)

It was published in 1983.

The world is still catching up ...
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Lynn McGuire
2019-11-02 20:37:43 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that isn't the world we are living in.
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"Life is suffering"
"The Dead Zone" by Stephen King.
https://www.amazon.com/Dead-Zone-Stephen-King/dp/1501144502/

Lynn
Lynn McGuire
2019-11-02 20:42:52 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that isn't the world we are living in.
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"Life is suffering"
"Lightning" by Dean Koonce
https://www.amazon.com/Lightning-Dean-Koontz/dp/0425192032/

Lynn
Lee Gleason
2019-11-02 23:09:54 UTC
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wrote in message news:0b777fb8-25af-4bf9-aa4a-***@googlegroups.com...

I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The
assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage.
Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.


Spoilers here, for a story whose name I don't recall


*************************************************************

There's a Randall Garrett short story where an assassin tries to kill an
evil Senator and initially only wounds him. He gets away, the law hot on his
heels. During his flight, he receives aid from assorted computers and
robots, for no reason he can discern. He winds up back at the Senator's
house, where the Senator, now expired, last words to the Global Cybernetic
network was "Bring him to me".

--
Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
Control-G Consultants
***@comcast.net
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-03 00:32:27 UTC
Reply
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Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The
assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage.
Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Spoilers here, for a story whose name I don't recall
*************************************************************
There's a Randall Garrett short story where an assassin tries to kill an
evil Senator and initially only wounds him. He gets away, the law hot on his
heels. During his flight, he receives aid from assorted computers and
robots, for no reason he can discern. He winds up back at the Senator's
house, where the Senator, now expired, last words to the Global Cybernetic
network was "Bring him to me".
"The Hunting Lodge."

[because the seni-sentient lodge is hunting for him.]

http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?55858
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
a***@msn.com
2019-11-03 01:26:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that isn't the world we are living in.
There's a short story called "When the Old Man Waves the Banner" by Sharon N. Farber with a heroic assassin who kills a mind-controlling tyrant. Unfortunately the treatment he received to evade the control of the tyrant and allow the assassination had side effects.

Any number of heroes in science fiction stories have tried to kill Hitler - usually (but not always) with bad effects.
a***@msn.com
2019-11-03 01:34:00 UTC
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Post by a***@msn.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that isn't the world we are living in.
There's a short story called "When the Old Man Waves the Banner" by Sharon N. Farber with a heroic assassin who kills a mind-controlling tyrant. Unfortunately the treatment he received to evade the control of the tyrant and allow the assassination had side effects.
Any number of heroes in science fiction stories have tried to kill Hitler - usually (but not always) with bad effects.
Knew I was forgetting several obvious examples. Arthur Clarke's The Light of Darkness features an assassin. In Foundation and Empire, someone tries to assassinate the Mule.
Paul S Person
2019-11-03 18:02:30 UTC
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Post by a***@msn.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that isn't the world we are living in.
There's a short story called "When the Old Man Waves the Banner" by Sharon N. Farber with a heroic assassin who kills a mind-controlling tyrant. Unfortunately the treatment he received to evade the control of the tyrant and allow the assassination had side effects.
Any number of heroes in science fiction stories have tried to kill Hitler - usually (but not always) with bad effects.
The film /The Man Who Killed Hitler and Then The Bigfoot/ does this.

Killing Hitler has no effect, either because he got one of the many
doubles or because one of the other doubles was promoted to Fuehrer by
the Party.

It shares its structure with Beowulf, in that the protagonist kills
two monsters, one when young, and the other when old, with the story
in between pretty much skipped.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-03 21:25:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is
an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties.
The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral
damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something
wrong.
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that
much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But
that isn't the world we are living in.
Post by a***@msn.com
There's a short story called "When the Old Man Waves the Banner" by
Sharon N. Farber with a heroic assassin who kills a mind-controlling
tyrant. Unfortunately the treatment he received to evade the control of
the tyrant and allow the assassination had side effects.
Post by a***@msn.com
Any number of heroes in science fiction stories have tried to kill
Hitler - usually (but not always) with bad effects.
The film /The Man Who Killed Hitler and Then The Bigfoot/ does this.
Killing Hitler has no effect, either because he got one of the many
doubles or because one of the other doubles was promoted to Fuehrer by
the Party.
https://www.tor.com/2011/08/31/wikihistory/
Post by a***@gmail.com
It shares its structure with Beowulf, in that the protagonist kills
two monsters, one when young, and the other when old, with the story
in between pretty much skipped.
Because the story in between was not what Beowulf was *about.*
Cf. Tolkien, "Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics."

From which, this link quotes:

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/40267-a-man-inherited-a-field-in-which-was-an-accumulation
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2019-11-04 17:40:41 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is
an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties.
The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral
damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something
wrong.
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that
much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But
that isn't the world we are living in.
Post by a***@msn.com
There's a short story called "When the Old Man Waves the Banner" by
Sharon N. Farber with a heroic assassin who kills a mind-controlling
tyrant. Unfortunately the treatment he received to evade the control of
the tyrant and allow the assassination had side effects.
Post by a***@msn.com
Any number of heroes in science fiction stories have tried to kill
Hitler - usually (but not always) with bad effects.
The film /The Man Who Killed Hitler and Then The Bigfoot/ does this.
Killing Hitler has no effect, either because he got one of the many
doubles or because one of the other doubles was promoted to Fuehrer by
the Party.
https://www.tor.com/2011/08/31/wikihistory/
Post by a***@gmail.com
It shares its structure with Beowulf, in that the protagonist kills
two monsters, one when young, and the other when old, with the story
in between pretty much skipped.
Because the story in between was not what Beowulf was *about.*
Cf. Tolkien, "Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics."
I did. That's what pointed out the structure to me.

In fact, I read it /twice/: after reading it the first time, I re-read
/Beowulf/ and, trust me on this, JRRT's lecture made a lot more sense
the second time through.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/40267-a-man-inherited-a-field-in-which-was-an-accumulation
A nice parable.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-04 19:00:19 UTC
Reply
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Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is
an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties.
The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral
damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something
wrong.
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that
much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But
that isn't the world we are living in.
Post by a***@msn.com
There's a short story called "When the Old Man Waves the Banner" by
Sharon N. Farber with a heroic assassin who kills a mind-controlling
tyrant. Unfortunately the treatment he received to evade the control of
the tyrant and allow the assassination had side effects.
Post by a***@msn.com
Any number of heroes in science fiction stories have tried to kill
Hitler - usually (but not always) with bad effects.
The film /The Man Who Killed Hitler and Then The Bigfoot/ does this.
Killing Hitler has no effect, either because he got one of the many
doubles or because one of the other doubles was promoted to Fuehrer by
the Party.
https://www.tor.com/2011/08/31/wikihistory/
Post by a***@gmail.com
It shares its structure with Beowulf, in that the protagonist kills
two monsters, one when young, and the other when old, with the story
in between pretty much skipped.
Because the story in between was not what Beowulf was *about.*
Cf. Tolkien, "Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics."
I did. That's what pointed out the structure to me.
In fact, I read it /twice/: after reading it the first time, I re-read
/Beowulf/ and, trust me on this, JRRT's lecture made a lot more sense
the second time through.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/40267-a-man-inherited-a-field-in-which-was-an-accumulation
A nice parable.
And ostensibly it's about the Beowulf-poet, but it's also about
Tolkien himself.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-03 02:18:33 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that isn't the world we are living in.
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"Life is suffering"
Harry Harrison's "From Fanaticism, or for Reward",
I think is the short story about a paid political assassin
who escapes by multiple use of teleportation - rather
like modern money laundering that performs electronic
bank transfers through several accounts.

As far as I remember - spoiler - he eventually is
caught, interrogated, and then released since the
government is not interested in punishing the crime.
This annoys him?
a***@msn.com
2019-11-03 14:50:18 UTC
Reply
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that isn't the world we are living in.
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"Life is suffering"
Harry Harrison's "From Fanaticism, or for Reward",
I think is the short story about a paid political assassin
who escapes by multiple use of teleportation - rather
like modern money laundering that performs electronic
bank transfers through several accounts.
Harrison also has a short story about the training of an assassin (title in rot13 V Nyjnlf Qb Jung Grqql Fnlf)
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-03 15:34:33 UTC
Reply
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that isn't the world we are living in.
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"Life is suffering"
Harry Harrison's "From Fanaticism, or for Reward",
I think is the short story about a paid political assassin
who escapes by multiple use of teleportation - rather
like modern money laundering that performs electronic
bank transfers through several accounts.
As far as I remember - spoiler - he eventually is
caught, interrogated, and then released since the
government is not interested in punishing the crime.
This annoys him?
Oh, and - from "Best of Harry Harrison", quoted at
<https://www.michaelowencarroll.com/hh/s068.htm> -
with ellipsis (dots) possibly representing cuts.

"Violence and death concern me very much. There is too
much of it in our society and our world, and at one time
I put far too much of it into my own work. A pulp reflex
that took effort to break ... Yet it does have its
fascination or it would not be there. At one extreme is
the escape-thriller that we will read to relax ...
At the other extreme is what can only be called the
excess vicarious violence of screen and box ...
Neither am I fond of the legend of the hired killer, the
cool hand who butchers for money. I believe in the rule
of conscience and law that has taken us out of the jungle.
That is what this story is about." - Harry Harrison

...apparently and presumably meaning this story, if it
at all resembles what I thought it is.
Lee Gleason
2019-11-03 19:10:03 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The
assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral >damage.
Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
I just remembered "Space Pioneer", by Mack Reynolds. An assassin has to
follow a victim onto a colonizing starship. A pretty good Mack Reynolds
space opera.

__
Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
Control-G Consultants
***@comcast.net
Wolffan
2019-11-03 21:59:45 UTC
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Post by Lee Gleason
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The
assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral>damage.
Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
I just remembered "Space Pioneer", by Mack Reynolds. An assassin
An _Albanian hillman_ assassin, the last of his clan, who has been trained
extensively and exhaustively in just about all methods of violence, armed and
unarmed
Post by Lee Gleason
has to
follow a victim
the heredity enemy of his clan, subject to a blood feud going back several
hundred years, who the assassin has never seen, not even in a picture, and
whose full name the assassin does not know. (The assassin does know the
family name, of course, it’s the Evil Plot-Advancer Name.)
Post by Lee Gleason
onto a colonizing starship.
A very poorly run colonizing starship.
Post by Lee Gleason
A pretty good Mack Reynolds
space opera.
There are at least three major plot twists, two of which depend entirely on
the assassin Making A Decision.
David Johnston
2019-11-03 22:51:53 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin.
Here you go:
The Way of Shadows by Brent Weeks
Graceling by Kristin Cashore
Throne of Glass by Sarah J. Maas
Poison Study by Maria V. Snyder
The Lies of Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch
Venom by Jennifer Estep
The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-04 04:46:31 UTC
Reply
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Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin.
....
Post by a***@gmail.com
The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien.
Well, yes, sorta, now that you mention it.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Chrysi Cat
2019-11-04 14:47:13 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin.
....
Post by a***@gmail.com
The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien.
Well, yes, sorta, now that you mention it.
Frodo counts as an assassin? How did I never think of that?
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Dimensional Traveler
2019-11-04 16:46:27 UTC
Reply
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Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin.
....
Post by a***@gmail.com
The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien.
Well, yes, sorta, now that you mention it.
Frodo counts as an assassin? How did I never think of that?
Because he wasn't. He could be considered a commando, going far behind
enemy lines to destroy a critical asset.
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-04 19:01:25 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin.
....
Post by a***@gmail.com
The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien.
Well, yes, sorta, now that you mention it.
Frodo counts as an assassin? How did I never think of that?
Because he wasn't. He could be considered a commando, going far behind
enemy lines to destroy a critical asset.
Because he's on our side. Sauron and his minions would consider
him an assassin.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dimensional Traveler
2019-11-04 19:27:48 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin.
....
Post by a***@gmail.com
The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien.
Well, yes, sorta, now that you mention it.
Frodo counts as an assassin? How did I never think of that?
Because he wasn't. He could be considered a commando, going far behind
enemy lines to destroy a critical asset.
Because he's on our side. Sauron and his minions would consider
him an assassin.
Who was he trying to assassinate?
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
Kevrob
2019-11-04 20:47:38 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin.
....
Post by a***@gmail.com
The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien.
Well, yes, sorta, now that you mention it.
Frodo counts as an assassin? How did I never think of that?
Because he wasn't. He could be considered a commando, going far behind
enemy lines to destroy a critical asset.
Because he's on our side. Sauron and his minions would consider
him an assassin.
Who was he trying to assassinate?
Assassinate, or discorporate?

Sauron still existed after the ring was destroyed, but he had lost
the power he had invested in the ring, and, presumably, the ability
to exist as more than a shadow of his former self.

No sequel was written to explore a ring-less Sauron, due to the
dreaded Author Existence Failure.

Kevin R
Paul S Person
2019-11-05 17:47:01 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin.
....
Post by a***@gmail.com
The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien.
Well, yes, sorta, now that you mention it.
Frodo counts as an assassin? How did I never think of that?
Because he wasn't. He could be considered a commando, going far behind
enemy lines to destroy a critical asset.
Because he's on our side. Sauron and his minions would consider
him an assassin.
Who was he trying to assassinate?
Assassinate, or discorporate?
Sauron still existed after the ring was destroyed, but he had lost
the power he had invested in the ring, and, presumably, the ability
to exist as more than a shadow of his former self.
/The Return of the King/ Part VI Chapter 4 page 227: the paragraph
starting '"The realm of Sauron is ended!"' those looking south seem to
see a large shadow, enormous, "terrible but impotent", which a great
wind takes and blows it away.

Compare this to Saruman (ibid, Chapter 8 page 300): after Saruman is
dead, a grey mist gathers rising to "a great height, like the smoke
from a fire". Refused entry into the West, it "dissolved into nothing"
when a cold wind from the west hit it.

I suggest that, in both cases, we are meant to understand that the
Maia concerned was completely gone. Morgoth may return, climbing at
the end over the Walls of Night (IIRC), but then, he is a Valar and
was merely exiled; but these Maiar are gone forever.
Post by Kevrob
No sequel was written to explore a ring-less Sauron, due to the
dreaded Author Existence Failure.
One was started set in the reign of Aragorn the King, but JRRT
abandoned it because it became clear it would never be more than an
adventure story. IIRC, it involved what may have been Sauron
/worship/, but it never got far enough along to apply to your
suggestion.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-04 21:15:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin.
....
Post by a***@gmail.com
The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien.
Well, yes, sorta, now that you mention it.
Frodo counts as an assassin? How did I never think of that?
Because he wasn't. He could be considered a commando, going far behind
enemy lines to destroy a critical asset.
Because he's on our side. Sauron and his minions would consider
him an assassin.
Who was he trying to assassinate?
Sauron! By destroying the Ring in which his enemy had
concentrated his power.

He expected to die in the process, not having reckoned on Deus Ex
Machina Airlines.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dimensional Traveler
2019-11-04 21:35:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin.
....
Post by a***@gmail.com
The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien.
Well, yes, sorta, now that you mention it.
Frodo counts as an assassin? How did I never think of that?
Because he wasn't. He could be considered a commando, going far behind
enemy lines to destroy a critical asset.
Because he's on our side. Sauron and his minions would consider
him an assassin.
Who was he trying to assassinate?
Sauron! By destroying the Ring in which his enemy had
concentrated his power.
He expected to die in the process, not having reckoned on Deus Ex
Machina Airlines.
I don't remember the Council or the Fellowship expecting that destroying
the ring would kill Sauron. Diminish him some maybe but the goal was to
remove a powerful weapon from consideration and temptation.
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
David Johnston
2019-11-04 22:42:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin.
And
....
Post by a***@gmail.com
The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien.
Well, yes, sorta, now that you mention it.
Frodo counts as an assassin? How did I never think of that?
Because he wasn't.  He could be considered a commando, going far behind
enemy lines to destroy a critical asset.
Because he's on our side.  Sauron and his minions would consider
him an assassin.
Who was he trying to assassinate?
His mission was to do something that would end the life of a national
leader. And yeah. I was kidding. Sort of.
Moriarty
2019-11-04 22:54:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin.
And
....
Post by a***@gmail.com
The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien.
Well, yes, sorta, now that you mention it.
Frodo counts as an assassin? How did I never think of that?
Because he wasn't.  He could be considered a commando, going far behind
enemy lines to destroy a critical asset.
Because he's on our side.  Sauron and his minions would consider
him an assassin.
Who was he trying to assassinate?
His mission was to do something that would end the life of a national
leader.
Not quite. It didn't end Sauron's life.

"If it is destroyed, then he will fall, and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape."
Post by David Johnston
And yeah. I was kidding. Sort of.
We at rasfw do not have a sense of humor we're aware of.

-Moriarty
Kevrob
2019-11-04 23:21:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Moriarty
Post by David Johnston
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin.
And
....
Post by a***@gmail.com
The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien.
Well, yes, sorta, now that you mention it.
Frodo counts as an assassin? How did I never think of that?
Because he wasn't.  He could be considered a commando, going far behind
enemy lines to destroy a critical asset.
Because he's on our side.  Sauron and his minions would consider
him an assassin.
Who was he trying to assassinate?
His mission was to do something that would end the life of a national
leader.
Not quite. It didn't end Sauron's life.
"If it is destroyed, then he will fall, and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape."
Post by David Johnston
And yeah. I was kidding. Sort of.
We at rasfw do not have a sense of humor we're aware of.
If it is taken as given that individuals have a spirit that
survives physical death, and this is not in dispute, by authorial
fiat, then is anyone ever really killed? Their physical body may
die, but their spirit "go west," or haunt a particularly nasty
location before being released from that state.

Sauron, in some remnant form, survives the destruction of the
ring, but he won't cohere as a physical being. He's a haint,
a spook, a spirit, far weaker than he's ever been.

Kevin R
Titus G
2019-11-05 00:28:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
snip
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
Post by David Johnston
And yeah. I was kidding. Sort of.
We at rasfw do not have a sense of humor we're aware of.
If it is taken as given that individuals have a spirit that
survives physical death, and this is not in dispute, by authorial
fiat, then is anyone ever really killed? Their physical body may
die, but their spirit "go west," or haunt a particularly nasty
location before being released from that state.
I have just begun Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos 1, Jhereg following
Dorothy's posts and your question is answered therein.
Types of Killing.
1. Successful Sorcery revival with intact body within three days of
death. Otherwise physical death and release of soul.
2.
and
3. Are in the book.
a***@msn.com
2019-11-05 00:48:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Sauron, in some remnant form, survives the destruction of the
ring, but he won't cohere as a physical being. He's a haint,
a spook, a spirit, far weaker than he's ever been.
Kevin R
Like the old gray mare, he haint what he used to be.
Titus G
2019-11-05 01:02:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by Kevrob
Sauron, in some remnant form, survives the destruction of the
ring, but he won't cohere as a physical being. He's a haint,
a spook, a spirit, far weaker than he's ever been.
Kevin R
Like the old gray mare, he haint what he used to be.
He used to be the wise and kind ruler of underground peoples with
sensitive eyes who were mercilessly invaded by an innocent-appearing
assassin directed by Capital G and his evil hordes bringing LIGHT to the
ethical compassionate disciples of Capital S.
As his connection, many centuries into the future, to rasfw on the
internet had been stolen by one of those love products of a New Zealand
farmer, he no longer had the advice of such powerhouses of knowledge
such as [insert favourite posters here], without which he was as good as
dead in a ditch.
Kevrob
2019-11-05 04:09:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by Kevrob
Sauron, in some remnant form, survives the destruction of the
ring, but he won't cohere as a physical being. He's a haint,
a spook, a spirit, far weaker than he's ever been.
Kevin R
Like the old gray mare, he haint what he used to be.
Or the old Grey Maia..... :)

Kevin R
David Johnston
2019-11-05 06:42:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Moriarty
Post by David Johnston
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin.
And
....
Post by a***@gmail.com
The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien.
Well, yes, sorta, now that you mention it.
Frodo counts as an assassin? How did I never think of that?
Because he wasn't.  He could be considered a commando, going far behind
enemy lines to destroy a critical asset.
Because he's on our side.  Sauron and his minions would consider
him an assassin.
Who was he trying to assassinate?
His mission was to do something that would end the life of a national
leader.
Not quite. It didn't end Sauron's life.
"If it is destroyed, then he will fall, and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape."
It ended his life as much anyone's life ends in Middle Earth which is
very much a place where everyone has an immortal soul. Sauron was
rendered permanently discorporate
Post by Moriarty
Post by David Johnston
And yeah. I was kidding. Sort of.
We at rasfw do not have a sense of humor we're aware of.
-Moriarty
J. Clarke
2019-11-05 00:10:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin.
....
Post by a***@gmail.com
The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien.
Well, yes, sorta, now that you mention it.
Frodo counts as an assassin? How did I never think of that?
Because he wasn't. He could be considered a commando, going far behind
enemy lines to destroy a critical asset.
Because he's on our side. Sauron and his minions would consider
him an assassin.
Who is he assassinating? Or is the Ring a living being?
Kevrob
2019-11-05 00:20:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Because he's on our side. Sauron and his minions would consider
him an assassin.
Who is he assassinating? Or is the Ring a living being?
The Ring has been invested with a large portion of the Dark Lord's power,
such that destroying it will render him incapable of exerting much
influence in Arda. Sauron is fated to severely diminish, and unable
to coalesce into a physical form.

He becomes a shadow of his former self.

Kevin R
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-04 02:09:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that isn't the world we are living in.
Andre Norton's _The Beast Master_, and Alastair Reynolds'
_Chasm City_, have protagonists looking for revenge,
liable to be deadly. But that's not quite the same as
political assassination.
p***@hotmail.com
2019-11-04 06:02:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that isn't the world we are living in.
Poul Anderson did this in his 1959 short story _State of Assassination_,
also known as _A Man to My Wounding_. In the near future, under international
law and treaty, nations have formalized a type of limited war called a
"state of assassination", where attacks are limited to the opposing
side's leaders. The protagonist is an American operative engaged in
a state of assassination with China, each side trying to force the
other into concessions. In this instance the protagonist is on a
defensive team trying to thwart a top Chinese operative. They know
he has entered the United States but they don't know who his target is.
He surprises them by attacking a university president, not a person
who has any role in the American government. The team is able to intercept
the Chinese operative, but the protagonist realizes that this is a
major violation of previous norms. The Chinese had gone after the
university president not for his present importance but because he
was a likely future leader.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-04 09:55:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that isn't the world we are living in.
Poul Anderson did this in his 1959 short story _State of Assassination_,
also known as _A Man to My Wounding_. In the near future, under international
law and treaty, nations have formalized a type of limited war called a
"state of assassination", where attacks are limited to the opposing
side's leaders. The protagonist is an American operative engaged in
a state of assassination with China, each side trying to force the
other into concessions. In this instance the protagonist is on a
defensive team trying to thwart a top Chinese operative. They know
he has entered the United States but they don't know who his target is.
He surprises them by attacking a university president, not a person
who has any role in the American government. The team is able to intercept
the Chinese operative, but the protagonist realizes that this is a
major violation of previous norms. The Chinese had gone after the
university president not for his present importance but because he
was a likely future leader.
Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
I was going to say how unlikely now, but then Donald Trump had his own
"university". It wasn't really, though.
Kevrob
2019-11-04 12:34:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
.......... The Chinese had gone after the
university president not for his present importance
but because he was a likely future leader.
I was going to say how unlikely now, but then Donald Trump had his own
"university". It wasn't really, though.
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.

I've long said that heads of government who parade around in
military uniform make themselves legitimate combatants in
declared wars. "El jefe" in his generalissimo outfit is fair
game.

Kevin R
Wolffan
2019-11-05 14:10:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
.......... The Chinese had gone after the
university president not for his present importance
but because he was a likely future leader.
I was going to say how unlikely now, but then Donald Trump had his own
"university". It wasn't really, though.
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.
I've long said that heads of government who parade around in
military uniform make themselves legitimate combatants in
declared wars. "El jefe" in his generalissimo outfit is fair
game.
ObSF-kinda. In Len Deighton’s _SS-GB_, about an alternate world where the
Nazis somehow managed to successfully invade Britain (a notion thoroughly
demolished in many places for various reasons which boil down to “can’t
get there from here” and “logistics”) Winston Churchill is locked up in
the Tower of London ‘cause he wore RAF uniform during the Battle of
Britain.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-05 14:30:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
.......... The Chinese had gone after the
university president not for his present importance
but because he was a likely future leader.
I was going to say how unlikely now, but then Donald Trump had his own
"university". It wasn't really, though.
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.
I've long said that heads of government who parade around in
military uniform make themselves legitimate combatants in
declared wars. "El jefe" in his generalissimo outfit is fair
game.
ObSF-kinda. In Len Deighton's _SS-GB_, about an alternate world where the
Nazis somehow managed to successfully invade Britain (a notion thoroughly
demolished in many places for various reasons which boil down to "can't
get there from here" and "logistics') Winston Churchill is locked up in
the Tower of London 'cause he wore RAF uniform during the Battle of
Britain.
I had to bring this post into the editor in order to read it
(because whenever you use one of those fancy characters it turns
into a-with-a-caret and deletes a chunk of the following text),
so I take the opportunity to comment that Churchill himself later
justified having taken considerable powers upon himself and his
staff "because we were the ones who would have the privilege of
having our heads cut off on Tower Hill if we lost."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Chrysi Cat
2019-11-05 14:56:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
.......... The Chinese had gone after the
university president not for his present importance
but because he was a likely future leader.
I was going to say how unlikely now, but then Donald Trump had his own
"university". It wasn't really, though.
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.
I've long said that heads of government who parade around in
military uniform make themselves legitimate combatants in
declared wars. "El jefe" in his generalissimo outfit is fair
game.
ObSF-kinda. In Len Deighton's _SS-GB_, about an alternate world where the
Nazis somehow managed to successfully invade Britain (a notion thoroughly
demolished in many places for various reasons which boil down to "can't
get there from here" and "logistics') Winston Churchill is locked up in
the Tower of London 'cause he wore RAF uniform during the Battle of
Britain.
I had to bring this post into the editor in order to read it
(because whenever you use one of those fancy characters it turns
into a-with-a-caret and deletes a chunk of the following text),
so I take the opportunity to comment that Churchill himself later
justified having taken considerable powers upon himself and his
staff "because we were the ones who would have the privilege of
having our heads cut off on Tower Hill if we lost."
Ouch. Those are "merely" smart-quotes. Though I do remain at a loss as
to how they got into his editor for him to submit them.

ONCE AGAIN, PEOPLE, ASCII ONLY! Turn off smart-quotes in your composer!

We are the newcomers and we are to follow the veterans' rules because
ninety percent of their newsreaders can't even handle UTF-7, let alone -8!
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-11-05 15:00:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
.......... The Chinese had gone after the
university president not for his present importance
but because he was a likely future leader.
I was going to say how unlikely now, but then Donald Trump had his own
"university". It wasn't really, though.
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.
I've long said that heads of government who parade around in
military uniform make themselves legitimate combatants in
declared wars. "El jefe" in his generalissimo outfit is fair
game.
ObSF-kinda. In Len Deighton's _SS-GB_, about an alternate world where the
Nazis somehow managed to successfully invade Britain (a notion thoroughly
demolished in many places for various reasons which boil down to "can't
get there from here" and "logistics') Winston Churchill is locked up in
the Tower of London 'cause he wore RAF uniform during the Battle of
Britain.
I had to bring this post into the editor in order to read it
(because whenever you use one of those fancy characters it turns
into a-with-a-caret and deletes a chunk of the following text),
so I take the opportunity to comment that Churchill himself later
justified having taken considerable powers upon himself and his
staff "because we were the ones who would have the privilege of
having our heads cut off on Tower Hill if we lost."
I read SSGB back in the day. I remember a few parts, but my favorite
little grace note was when margerine from Germany was delivered to
England in a propaganda campaign about best wishes from (I guess)
the maize farmers of Germany, and the local grousing was "Why can't
the dairy farmers of Germany be friendly with butter instead?"

That, and sneaking the king around in a wheelchair and calling him by
his first name. (Well, I can't exactly call him Your Majesty, now can I?)
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Chrysi Cat
2019-11-05 15:11:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
.......... The Chinese had gone after the
university president not for his present importance
but because he was a likely future leader.
I was going to say how unlikely now, but then Donald Trump had his own
"university". It wasn't really, though.
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.
I've long said that heads of government who parade around in
military uniform make themselves legitimate combatants in
declared wars. "El jefe" in his generalissimo outfit is fair
game.
ObSF-kinda. In Len Deighton's _SS-GB_, about an alternate world where the
Nazis somehow managed to successfully invade Britain (a notion thoroughly
demolished in many places for various reasons which boil down to "can't
get there from here" and "logistics') Winston Churchill is locked up in
the Tower of London 'cause he wore RAF uniform during the Battle of
Britain.
I had to bring this post into the editor in order to read it
(because whenever you use one of those fancy characters it turns
into a-with-a-caret and deletes a chunk of the following text),
so I take the opportunity to comment that Churchill himself later
justified having taken considerable powers upon himself and his
staff "because we were the ones who would have the privilege of
having our heads cut off on Tower Hill if we lost."
I read SSGB back in the day. I remember a few parts, but my favorite
little grace note was when margerine from Germany was delivered to
England in a propaganda campaign about best wishes from (I guess)
the maize farmers of Germany, and the local grousing was "Why can't
the dairy farmers of Germany be friendly with butter instead?"
That, and sneaking the king around in a wheelchair and calling him by
his first name. (Well, I can't exactly call him Your Majesty, now can I?)
I can't remember if I found it in my high school library or on the shelf
shelf at our then-newly-built public one that's now over 25 years old,
but I definitely read it in the early 90s (and wasn't aware it was
nearly as old as me, since, y'know, "Axis-wins" novels were more
something that was coming into vogue WHEN I was in HS).

But I know two things; I read it, and apparently I need to check it out
again at some point because I can't say as I recall _either_ of those
actions (which says that it's something that my unusually-wired brain
somehow has put in "my childhood" because as I may have stated before,
things from my teen years are usually nearly as vivid as things from 3
days ago for me--not as clear [especially on clothing!] as things should
be for 3 days ago, but a whole lot clearer than sophomore year of HS
should be for a middle-aged woman)!
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Panthera Tigris Altaica
2019-11-05 21:20:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
.......... The Chinese had gone after the
university president not for his present importance
but because he was a likely future leader.
I was going to say how unlikely now, but then Donald Trump had his own
"university". It wasn't really, though.
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.
I've long said that heads of government who parade around in
military uniform make themselves legitimate combatants in
declared wars. "El jefe" in his generalissimo outfit is fair
game.
ObSF-kinda. In Len Deighton's _SS-GB_, about an alternate world where the
Nazis somehow managed to successfully invade Britain (a notion thoroughly
demolished in many places for various reasons which boil down to "can't
get there from here" and "logistics') Winston Churchill is locked up in
the Tower of London 'cause he wore RAF uniform during the Battle of
Britain.
I had to bring this post into the editor in order to read it
(because whenever you use one of those fancy characters it turns
into a-with-a-caret and deletes a chunk of the following text),
so I take the opportunity to comment that Churchill himself later
justified having taken considerable powers upon himself and his
staff "because we were the ones who would have the privilege of
having our heads cut off on Tower Hill if we lost."
I read SSGB back in the day.  I remember a few parts, but my favorite
little grace note was when margerine from Germany was delivered to
England in a propaganda campaign about best wishes from (I guess)
the maize farmers of Germany, and the local grousing was "Why can't
the dairy farmers of Germany be friendly with butter instead?"
That, and sneaking the king around in a wheelchair and calling him by
his first name.  (Well, I can't exactly call him Your Majesty, now can
I?)
I can't remember if I found it in my high school library or on the shelf
shelf at our then-newly-built public one that's now over 25 years old,
but I definitely read it in the early 90s (and wasn't aware it was
nearly as old as me, since, y'know, "Axis-wins" novels were more
something that was coming into vogue WHEN I was in HS).
But I know two things; I read it, and apparently I need to check it out
again at some point because I can't say as I recall _either_ of those
actions (which says that it's something that my unusually-wired brain
somehow has put in "my childhood" because as I may have stated before,
things from my teen years are usually nearly as vivid as things from 3
days ago for me--not as clear [especially on clothing!] as things should
be for 3 days ago, but a whole lot clearer than sophomore year of HS
should be for a middle-aged woman)!
My copy of SS-GB has the King, in his wheelchair, locked up in the Tower
(on the very first page), excerpt follows, between ___s:
___
Himmler’s got the king locked up in the Tower of London,’ said Harry
Woods. ‘But now the German Generals say the army should guard him.’
___

and Churchill held at the Tower until he was executed. Excerpt follows:
___
‘Is it true, Sir Robert,’ said Bernard, ‘this rumour that Winston
Churchill has been executed?’

Sir Robert nodded gravely. ‘Tried by secret military tribunal at the
Luftwaffe’s 1st Air Fleet HQ in Berlin. We all told Winston not to wear
that damned RAF uniform, but he wouldn’t listen.’ Sir Robert sighed.
‘That gave the Germans a legal pretext for the court-martial.’ He picked
up the cards on the table in front of him and sorted through them
without seeing them. ‘Certain high-ranking British politicians have been
told, but the execution will not be officially announced for some time.’
He slapped the cards down on the table.
___

Excerpts taken from _SS-GB_, ebook of the Harper books edition.
Chrysi Cat
2019-11-06 04:56:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
.......... The Chinese had gone after the
university president not for his present importance
but because he was a likely future leader.
I was going to say how unlikely now, but then Donald Trump had his own
"university". It wasn't really, though.
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.
I've long said that heads of government who parade around in
military uniform make themselves legitimate combatants in
declared wars. "El jefe" in his generalissimo outfit is fair
game.
ObSF-kinda. In Len Deighton's _SS-GB_, about an alternate world where the
Nazis somehow managed to successfully invade Britain (a notion thoroughly
demolished in many places for various reasons which boil down to "can't
get there from here" and "logistics') Winston Churchill is locked up in
the Tower of London 'cause he wore RAF uniform during the Battle of
Britain.
I had to bring this post into the editor in order to read it
(because whenever you use one of those fancy characters it turns
into a-with-a-caret and deletes a chunk of the following text),
so I take the opportunity to comment that Churchill himself later
justified having taken considerable powers upon himself and his
staff "because we were the ones who would have the privilege of
having our heads cut off on Tower Hill if we lost."
I read SSGB back in the day.  I remember a few parts, but my favorite
little grace note was when margerine from Germany was delivered to
England in a propaganda campaign about best wishes from (I guess)
the maize farmers of Germany, and the local grousing was "Why can't
the dairy farmers of Germany be friendly with butter instead?"
That, and sneaking the king around in a wheelchair and calling him by
his first name.  (Well, I can't exactly call him Your Majesty, now can
I?)
I can't remember if I found it in my high school library or on the shelf
shelf at our then-newly-built public one that's now over 25 years old,
but I definitely read it in the early 90s (and wasn't aware it was
nearly as old as me, since, y'know, "Axis-wins" novels were more
something that was coming into vogue WHEN I was in HS).
But I know two things; I read it, and apparently I need to check it out
again at some point because I can't say as I recall _either_ of those
actions (which says that it's something that my unusually-wired brain
somehow has put in "my childhood" because as I may have stated before,
things from my teen years are usually nearly as vivid as things from 3
days ago for me--not as clear [especially on clothing!] as things should
be for 3 days ago, but a whole lot clearer than sophomore year of HS
should be for a middle-aged woman)!
Incidentally, I now very much suspect it was the public library, because
in 1991-92, /it/ would have already had one of the first /computer/
catalogs (Koelbel never ever relied on a card catalog as its primary)
and I think the HS was still running on /card/ catalog. And with that
era, I would have been able to find it by searching "related works" when
I was dealing with /Fatherland,/ which /would/ have been reasonably new
at that point.
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Butch Malahide
2019-11-07 10:19:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.
President Eisenhower was not that bad. Now, the last president
before Eisenhower to have been head of a university, Woodrow
Wilson, was pretty awful.
Kevrob
2019-11-07 13:10:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Butch Malahide
Post by Kevrob
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.
President Eisenhower was not that bad. Now, the last president
before Eisenhower to have been head of a university, Woodrow
Wilson, was pretty awful.
I'd forgotten about Ike being Prez of Columbia. He left that
to be Supreme Commander of NATO, but returned to that post
before being elected. I was, indeed, referring to Wilson.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_D._Eisenhower#President_at_Columbia_University_and_NATO_Supreme_Commander

Could you imagine someone with views close to Eisenhower's
heading an Ivy or peer institution, today?

--
Kevin R
a.a #2310
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-07 14:14:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Butch Malahide
Post by Kevrob
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.
President Eisenhower was not that bad. Now, the last president
before Eisenhower to have been head of a university, Woodrow
Wilson, was pretty awful.
I'd forgotten about Ike being Prez of Columbia. He left that
to be Supreme Commander of NATO, but returned to that post
before being elected. I was, indeed, referring to Wilson.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_D._Eisenhower#President_at_Columbia_University_and_NATO_Supreme_Commander
Could you imagine someone with views close to Eisenhower's
heading an Ivy or peer institution, today?
No, but we are seventy years after his taking that office. The
country has changed, the world has changed; old people have died
and young people have been born, grown up, and become old enough
to vote. This is continually happening.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2019-11-07 18:21:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Butch Malahide
Post by Kevrob
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.
President Eisenhower was not that bad. Now, the last president
before Eisenhower to have been head of a university, Woodrow
Wilson, was pretty awful.
I'd forgotten about Ike being Prez of Columbia. He left that
to be Supreme Commander of NATO, but returned to that post
before being elected. I was, indeed, referring to Wilson.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_D._Eisenhower#President_at_Columbia_University_and_NATO_Supreme_Commander
Could you imagine someone with views close to Eisenhower's
heading an Ivy or peer institution, today?
No, but we are seventy years after his taking that office. The
country has changed, the world has changed; old people have died
and young people have been born, grown up, and become old enough
to vote. This is continually happening.
Ike was pretty "progressive" for a Republican of his day.
He did send the troops in to Little Rock to enforce desegregation,
and began the Interstate Highway System. The Taft/Goldwater wing
of the party was not happy with the Dewey/Rockefeller wing, but
the GOP as a whole was glad to nominate someone so popular with
the entire electorate. They hadn't had a winner since Hoover, after
all.

The flipside of this is that a prominent president of a notable
college nowadays will almost certainly be, if not among the most
radical of leftists, used to placating such. There are few John
Silbers,* after all.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Silber

For the record, I am neither a Republican nor Democrat, and count
myself neither a "conservative" nor a "liberal." As a libertarian,
I find much to criticize in both Team Red! and Team Blue!

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-07 14:09:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Butch Malahide
Post by Kevrob
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.
President Eisenhower was not that bad. Now, the last president
before Eisenhower to have been head of a university, Woodrow
Wilson, was pretty awful.
He was not adapted to the reality of the post-WWI planet. But
then, who was?

The interesting thing about Wilson is that he had a stroke in
1919, and for some time thereafter his wife Edith was the only
one who could understand his slurred speech -- or so she said.
"For her influence in the administration, some have described
Edith Wilson as 'the first female President of the United
States.'"
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Wolffan
2019-11-07 15:06:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Butch Malahide
Post by Kevrob
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.
President Eisenhower was not that bad. Now, the last president
before Eisenhower to have been head of a university, Woodrow
Wilson, was pretty awful.
He was not adapted to the reality of the post-WWI planet. But
then, who was?
The interesting thing about Wilson is that he had a stroke in
1919, and for some time thereafter his wife Edith was the only
one who could understand his slurred speech -- or so she said.
"For her influence in the administration, some have described
Edith Wilson as 'the first female President of the United
States.'"
Given Wilson’s policies, particularly his/her racial policies, this may not
be the best thing to claim.
a***@msn.com
2019-11-08 00:25:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Wolffan
Post by Butch Malahide
Post by Kevrob
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.
President Eisenhower was not that bad. Now, the last president
before Eisenhower to have been head of a university, Woodrow
Wilson, was pretty awful.
He was not adapted to the reality of the post-WWI planet. But
then, who was?
The interesting thing about Wilson is that he had a stroke in
1919, and for some time thereafter his wife Edith was the only
one who could understand his slurred speech -- or so she said.
"For her influence in the administration, some have described
Edith Wilson as 'the first female President of the United
States.'"
Given Wilson’s policies, particularly his/her racial policies, this may not
be the best thing to claim.
Wilson had a lot of bad policies - in addition to segregating the Civil Service, Wilson's administration prosecuted Robert Goldstein for making a movie about the American Revolution (this movie favored the Colonies over the British, therefore (per the "logic" of the prosecutor) it was German propaganda against American allies, and thus was "espionage."
Dimensional Traveler
2019-11-08 01:04:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by Wolffan
Post by Butch Malahide
Post by Kevrob
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.
President Eisenhower was not that bad. Now, the last president
before Eisenhower to have been head of a university, Woodrow
Wilson, was pretty awful.
He was not adapted to the reality of the post-WWI planet. But
then, who was?
The interesting thing about Wilson is that he had a stroke in
1919, and for some time thereafter his wife Edith was the only
one who could understand his slurred speech -- or so she said.
"For her influence in the administration, some have described
Edith Wilson as 'the first female President of the United
States.'"
Given Wilson’s policies, particularly his/her racial policies, this may not
be the best thing to claim.
Wilson had a lot of bad policies - in addition to segregating the Civil Service, Wilson's administration prosecuted Robert Goldstein for making a movie about the American Revolution (this movie favored the Colonies over the British, therefore (per the "logic" of the prosecutor) it was German propaganda against American allies, and thus was "espionage."
Dafuq?
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
a***@msn.com
2019-11-08 01:07:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by a***@msn.com
Wilson had a lot of bad policies - in addition to segregating the Civil Service, Wilson's administration prosecuted Robert Goldstein for making a movie about the American Revolution (this movie favored the Colonies over the British, therefore (per the "logic" of the prosecutor) it was German propaganda against American allies, and thus was "espionage."
Dafuq?
Yeah. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spirit_of_%2776_(1917_film) has more details. I don't think I've misrepresented the story...
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-11-08 01:18:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by Butch Malahide
Post by Kevrob
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.
President Eisenhower was not that bad. Now, the last president
before Eisenhower to have been head of a university, Woodrow
Wilson, was pretty awful.
He was not adapted to the reality of the post-WWI planet. But
then, who was?
The interesting thing about Wilson is that he had a stroke in
1919, and for some time thereafter his wife Edith was the only
one who could understand his slurred speech -- or so she said.
"For her influence in the administration, some have described
Edith Wilson as 'the first female President of the United
States.'"
Given Wilson’s policies, particularly his/her racial policies, this may not
be the best thing to claim.
Wilson had a lot of bad policies - in addition to segregating the
Civil Service, Wilson's administration prosecuted Robert Goldstein for
making a movie about the American Revolution (this movie favored the
Colonies over the British, therefore (per the "logic" of the prosecutor)
it was German propaganda against American allies, and thus was
"espionage."
Dafuq?
Which still doesn't come close to putting Debbs in jail.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Dimensional Traveler
2019-11-08 03:21:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by Butch Malahide
Post by Kevrob
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.
President Eisenhower was not that bad. Now, the last president
before Eisenhower to have been head of a university, Woodrow
Wilson, was pretty awful.
He was not adapted to the reality of the post-WWI planet. But
then, who was?
The interesting thing about Wilson is that he had a stroke in
1919, and for some time thereafter his wife Edith was the only
one who could understand his slurred speech -- or so she said.
"For her influence in the administration, some have described
Edith Wilson as 'the first female President of the United
States.'"
Given Wilson’s policies, particularly his/her racial policies, this may not
be the best thing to claim.
Wilson had a lot of bad policies - in addition to segregating the
Civil Service, Wilson's administration prosecuted Robert Goldstein for
making a movie about the American Revolution (this movie favored the
Colonies over the British, therefore (per the "logic" of the prosecutor)
it was German propaganda against American allies, and thus was
"espionage."
Dafuq?
Which still doesn't come close to putting Debbs in jail.
That response makes even less sense than the prosecution of Goldstein.
(Who the bleep is "Debbs"?)
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
J. Clarke
2019-11-08 03:30:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 7 Nov 2019 19:21:07 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by Butch Malahide
Post by Kevrob
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.
President Eisenhower was not that bad. Now, the last president
before Eisenhower to have been head of a university, Woodrow
Wilson, was pretty awful.
He was not adapted to the reality of the post-WWI planet. But
then, who was?
The interesting thing about Wilson is that he had a stroke in
1919, and for some time thereafter his wife Edith was the only
one who could understand his slurred speech -- or so she said.
"For her influence in the administration, some have described
Edith Wilson as 'the first female President of the United
States.'"
Given Wilson’s policies, particularly his/her racial policies, this may not
be the best thing to claim.
Wilson had a lot of bad policies - in addition to segregating the
Civil Service, Wilson's administration prosecuted Robert Goldstein for
making a movie about the American Revolution (this movie favored the
Colonies over the British, therefore (per the "logic" of the prosecutor)
it was German propaganda against American allies, and thus was
"espionage."
Dafuq?
Which still doesn't come close to putting Debbs in jail.
That response makes even less sense than the prosecution of Goldstein.
(Who the bleep is "Debbs"?)
I'm glad I'm not the only one wondering that.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-11-08 04:46:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 7 Nov 2019 19:21:07 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by Butch Malahide
Post by Kevrob
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.
President Eisenhower was not that bad. Now, the last president
before Eisenhower to have been head of a university, Woodrow
Wilson, was pretty awful.
He was not adapted to the reality of the post-WWI planet. But
then, who was?
The interesting thing about Wilson is that he had a stroke in
1919, and for some time thereafter his wife Edith was the only
one who could understand his slurred speech -- or so she said.
"For her influence in the administration, some have described
Edith Wilson as 'the first female President of the United
States.'"
Given Wilson’s policies, particularly his/her racial policies,
this may not
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by a***@msn.com
be the best thing to claim.
Wilson had a lot of bad policies - in addition to segregating the
Civil Service, Wilson's administration prosecuted Robert Goldstein for
making a movie about the American Revolution (this movie favored the
Colonies over the British, therefore (per the "logic" of the prosecutor)
it was German propaganda against American allies, and thus was
"espionage."
Dafuq?
Which still doesn't come close to putting Debbs in jail.
That response makes even less sense than the prosecution of Goldstein.
(Who the bleep is "Debbs"?)
I'm glad I'm not the only one wondering that.
Seriously? Yeah, I can't spell, but it's one of the most infamous events
in US political history: Wilson jailed Eugene Debs, the Socialist
candidate for US President in 1912, who had gotten 6% of the
ballot (about 1 million votes) for sedition.

He remained in jail until he was pardoned by Harding in 1921 along
with other political prisioners and invited to the White House as
part of Harding's "return to normalcy".
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Dimensional Traveler
2019-11-08 20:12:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 7 Nov 2019 19:21:07 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by Butch Malahide
Post by Kevrob
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.
President Eisenhower was not that bad. Now, the last president
before Eisenhower to have been head of a university, Woodrow
Wilson, was pretty awful.
He was not adapted to the reality of the post-WWI planet. But
then, who was?
The interesting thing about Wilson is that he had a stroke in
1919, and for some time thereafter his wife Edith was the only
one who could understand his slurred speech -- or so she said.
"For her influence in the administration, some have described
Edith Wilson as 'the first female President of the United
States.'"
Given Wilson’s policies, particularly his/her racial policies,
this may not
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by a***@msn.com
be the best thing to claim.
Wilson had a lot of bad policies - in addition to segregating the
Civil Service, Wilson's administration prosecuted Robert Goldstein for
making a movie about the American Revolution (this movie favored the
Colonies over the British, therefore (per the "logic" of the prosecutor)
it was German propaganda against American allies, and thus was
"espionage."
Dafuq?
Which still doesn't come close to putting Debbs in jail.
That response makes even less sense than the prosecution of Goldstein.
(Who the bleep is "Debbs"?)
I'm glad I'm not the only one wondering that.
Seriously? Yeah, I can't spell, but it's one of the most infamous events
in US political history: Wilson jailed Eugene Debs, the Socialist
candidate for US President in 1912, who had gotten 6% of the
ballot (about 1 million votes) for sedition.
He remained in jail until he was pardoned by Harding in 1921 along
with other political prisioners and invited to the White House as
part of Harding's "return to normalcy".
Thank you for the explanation. I would respectfully suggest that it
would have been helpful to have that in the post you first mentioned Mr.
Debs in as most people are ignorant about most of history. (And yes,
that includes me.)
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
Kevrob
2019-11-08 04:52:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dimensional Traveler
(Who the bleep is "Debbs"?)
I'm glad I'm not the only one wondering that.
There's an excess "b" in that name.

Pinko who ran for President, locked up for sedition,
because he gave anti-war speeches.

He received nearly over 900k popular votes in 1912,
6% of the total.

[quote]

Debs appears in the Southern Victory Series novels "The Great War:
Breakthroughs" and "American Empire: Blood and Iron" by Harry Turtledove.

...

The alternate history collection "Back in the USSA" by Kim Newman
and Eugene Byrne is set in a world where Debs leads a communist
revolution in the United States in 1917.

[/quote]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Debs

Kevin R
David Johnston
2019-11-08 06:02:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 7 Nov 2019 19:21:07 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by Butch Malahide
Post by Kevrob
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.
President Eisenhower was not that bad. Now, the last president
before Eisenhower to have been head of a university, Woodrow
Wilson, was pretty awful.
He was not adapted to the reality of the post-WWI planet. But
then, who was?
The interesting thing about Wilson is that he had a stroke in
1919, and for some time thereafter his wife Edith was the only
one who could understand his slurred speech -- or so she said.
"For her influence in the administration, some have described
Edith Wilson as 'the first female President of the United
States.'"
Given Wilson’s policies, particularly his/her racial policies, this may not
be the best thing to claim.
Wilson had a lot of bad policies - in addition to segregating the
Civil Service, Wilson's administration prosecuted Robert Goldstein for
making a movie about the American Revolution (this movie favored the
Colonies over the British, therefore (per the "logic" of the prosecutor)
it was German propaganda against American allies, and thus was
"espionage."
Dafuq?
Which still doesn't come close to putting Debbs in jail.
That response makes even less sense than the prosecution of Goldstein.
(Who the bleep is "Debbs"?)
I'm glad I'm not the only one wondering that.
Lefty union organizer convicted of "sedition" for his vocal objections
to American involvement in the Great War.
Titus G
2019-11-08 04:53:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Which still doesn't come close to putting Debbs in jail.
That response makes even less sense than the prosecution of
Goldstein. (Who the bleep is "Debbs"?)
Rumour has it that through sorcery he is able to break the fourth wall
by forcing unwitting posters to censor their own expletives. Apart from
that strange attribute I do not know him and have no idea why Ted wants
to put him in gaol.
However, I support Ted in this matter. Put him in gaol anyway. Back on
thread. All assassins should be in gaol. (Brust's Vlad is the exception
that prove the rule.)
Dimensional Traveler
2019-11-08 20:13:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Which still doesn't come close to putting Debbs in jail.
That response makes even less sense than the prosecution of
Goldstein. (Who the bleep is "Debbs"?)
Rumour has it that through sorcery he is able to break the fourth wall
by forcing unwitting posters to censor their own expletives. Apart from
that strange attribute I do not know him and have no idea why Ted wants
to put him in gaol.
However, I support Ted in this matter. Put him in gaol anyway. Back on
thread. All assassins should be in gaol. (Brust's Vlad is the exception
that prove the rule.)
I've actually been self-censoring like that in print and speech for some
years. Its a wonderful mechanism for confusing the feces out of some
people. :)
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-08 14:09:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Wolffan
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by Butch Malahide
Post by Kevrob
Our last head of a real university to win the Presidency was
so awful that not electing another is understandable.
President Eisenhower was not that bad. Now, the last president
before Eisenhower to have been head of a university, Woodrow
Wilson, was pretty awful.
He was not adapted to the reality of the post-WWI planet. But
then, who was?
The interesting thing about Wilson is that he had a stroke in
1919, and for some time thereafter his wife Edith was the only
one who could understand his slurred speech -- or so she said.
"For her influence in the administration, some have described
Edith Wilson as 'the first female President of the United
States.'"
Given Wilson’s policies, particularly his/her racial
policies, this may not
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by a***@msn.com
Post by a***@msn.com
be the best thing to claim.
Wilson had a lot of bad policies - in addition to segregating the
Civil Service, Wilson's administration prosecuted Robert Goldstein for
making a movie about the American Revolution (this movie favored the
Colonies over the British, therefore (per the "logic" of the prosecutor)
it was German propaganda against American allies, and thus was
"espionage."
Dafuq?
Which still doesn't come close to putting Debbs in jail.
That response makes even less sense than the prosecution of Goldstein.
(Who the bleep is "Debbs"?)
Presumably,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_V._Debs

whose name came to mind but not his history. You can read it up;
I skimmed it and said, "oh, right."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Harold Hill
2019-11-04 14:05:44 UTC
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I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The
Your personal definition of SF may not extend to include them, but virtually all of Warren Murphy and Richard Sapir's _The Destroyer_ series are about the assassin Remo Williams. (And Chiun. And others.)
--
-Harold Hill
Leif Roar Moldskred
2019-11-06 19:32:44 UTC
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In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin
usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage.
I think Gavrilo Princip suffice as enough of a counter-example to suggest
that assassination is perhaps not quite as neat as that after all.

--
Leif Roar Moldskred
D B Davis
2019-11-06 21:12:39 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin
usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage.
I think Gavrilo Princip suffice as enough of a counter-example to suggest
that assassination is perhaps not quite as neat as that after all.
Some SF stories make use of historic events to embellish the tale.
"Swiss Movement" (Vinicoff & Martin) does that with Gavrilo Princip:

... I probed deeper and found no less than /seven/ instances
where assassinations or 'accidents' save Switzerland from
foreign aggression - the earliest taking place almost four
centuries ago. In 1914, for example, both Austria-Hungary
and Germany were ready to expand through conquest.
Switzerland lay on their borders, an inviting target. But
one assassination, cleverly blamed on a fanatic group,
started World War One. ...



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Peter Trei
2019-11-07 17:28:42 UTC
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I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that isn't the world we are living in.
If SF refers only to Science Fiction I cant recall any where a professional assassin is the central character, though there are plenty where they are minor characters.

Fantasy is richer though. In the Discworld series, Lord Vetenari is a graduate of the Assassins Guild, and iirc in Night Watch we see performing professionally.

Pt
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-11-07 17:40:10 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an
assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties.
The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral
damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something
wrong.
Post by a***@gmail.com
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much
of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that
isn't the world we are living in.
If SF refers only to Science Fiction I cant recall any where a
professional assassin is the central character, though there are plenty
where they are minor characters.
ValCon starts the Liaden sequence as an assassin, albeit a brainwashed
one. I guess that doesn't count as "professional", but he is
certainly a major character (though there are many such!)
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Chrysi Cat
2019-11-07 18:43:42 UTC
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I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that isn't the world we are living in.
If SF refers only to Science Fiction I cant recall any where a professional assassin is the central character, though there are plenty where they are minor characters.
Fantasy is richer though. In the Discworld series, Lord Vetenari is a graduate of the Assassins Guild, and iirc in Night Watch we see performing professionally.
Pt
It ain't exactly /WRITTEN/ sci-fi, but the "it was his sled" of
/Assassin's Creed/ and thus the continuing structure for the entire
series is that it's neither fantasy nor historical fiction, but sci-fi
whose main thrust is in the present day or near future. That said, you
have to put like 90 hours into each game unless you'd rather watch
abridged Let's Play's.
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Moriarty
2019-11-08 02:03:48 UTC
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I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that isn't the world we are living in.
If SF refers only to Science Fiction I cant recall any where a professional assassin is the central character, though there are plenty where they are minor characters.
Fantasy is richer though. In the Discworld series, Lord Vetenari is a graduate of the Assassins Guild, and iirc in Night Watch we see performing professionally.
IIRC in "Night Watch" we explicitly DON'T see him performing professionally. We, the readers, don't see him any more than his Stealth Professor did.

-Moriarty
-dsr-
2019-11-08 16:41:14 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that isn't the world we are living in.
If SF refers only to Science Fiction I cant recall any where a professional assassin is the central character, though there are plenty where they are minor characters.
Fantasy is richer though. In the Discworld series, Lord Vetenari is a graduate of the Assassins Guild, and iirc in Night Watch we see performing professionally.
The Man Who Never Missed, Steve Perry. Start of what I think is his most
successful non-media-tie-in series. It's very SFnal; the fantastic elements
are FTL and an unreasonably effective martial art.

Protagonist Emil Khadaji is, depending on your perspective, a soldier of the Simba
Freedom Forces and/or an assassin and terrorist.

It may be notable that he is extremely successful as a terrorist, though
the impact is not fully developed until the sequels.

-dsr-
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-08 19:15:24 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't recall ever reading a SF work where the hero or antihero is an assassin. In a full scale war there are usually civilian casualties. The assassin usually only takes out the target, avoiding collateral damage. Usually the targets, at least in fiction, have done something wrong.
Whether working for criminals or the government, there isn't that much of a difference. Human life should be protected from killing. But that isn't the world we are living in.
If SF refers only to Science Fiction I cant recall any where a professional assassin is the central character, though there are plenty where they are minor characters.
Fantasy is richer though. In the Discworld series, Lord Vetenari is a graduate of the Assassins Guild, and iirc in Night Watch we see performing professionally.
Pt
Did I mention Roger Zelazny's _Today We Choose Faces_ already?
The first protagonist (it gets complicated) is a Mafia hitman
revived from suspsended animation for another job, definitely
an assassination. Wikipedia describes the future Mafia version
which orders the hit as "mostly legitimate".

There's some similarity there to _Gestapo Mars_ except that
that one's officially a frozen Nazi James Bond in space in
the future. I'm not recommending it except for the hot sex
scenes. I am not recommending those either.
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