Discussion:
[Damon Knight's Orbit] Orbit 3 edited by Damon Knight
(too old to reply)
James Nicoll
2021-07-13 13:03:55 UTC
Permalink
Orbit 3 edited by Damon Knight

https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/and-had-some-fun
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Michael F. Stemper
2021-07-13 13:20:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Orbit 3 edited by Damon Knight
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/and-had-some-fun
You said:
"This has interior artwork by Jack Gaughan [...]"

Specifically, Gaughan illustrated "Bramble Bush", not
the entire book. The illustrations highlight the
"Ten Little [somethings]" nature of the story.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Indians scattered on dawn's highway bleeding;
Ghosts crowd the young child's fragile eggshell mind.
Quadibloc
2021-07-14 07:29:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Orbit 3 edited by Damon Knight
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/and-had-some-fun
It's true that future anthologies in the Orbit series probably won't
have an increased proportion of authors of color.

However, at the time they were produced, that would likely not be
something that could be entirely put down to any bigotry on Damon
Knight's part. Back then, for whatever reason, whether it was the
barriers that science-fiction authors of color faced being colossal,
or a lack of interest in the field... there just wouldn't have been
any authors of color he is likely to have even heard of.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2021-07-14 07:35:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
However, at the time they were produced, that would likely not be
something that could be entirely put down to any bigotry on Damon
Knight's part.
Given that the theme of these books is "the best new science fiction" -
stories that are among the best there is, and yet they haven't been
published before anywhere else... he would have been relying on
authors who had securely established their reputations.

In a field that had not yet become diverse, that isn't going to allow
much room for beating the average.

John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-14 13:55:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
Orbit 3 edited by Damon Knight
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/and-had-some-fun
It's true that future anthologies in the Orbit series probably won't
have an increased proportion of authors of color.
However, at the time they were produced, that would likely not be
something that could be entirely put down to any bigotry on Damon
Knight's part. Back then, for whatever reason, whether it was the
barriers that science-fiction authors of color faced being colossal,
or a lack of interest in the field... there just wouldn't have been
any authors of color he is likely to have even heard of.
Back in the day, women writers would use male pseudonyms in order
to get published. Were there, does anybody know, any writers of
color who submitted works by mail to disguise their ethnicity?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2021-07-14 15:39:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
Orbit 3 edited by Damon Knight
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/and-had-some-fun
It's true that future anthologies in the Orbit series probably won't
have an increased proportion of authors of color.
However, at the time they were produced, that would likely not be
something that could be entirely put down to any bigotry on Damon
Knight's part. Back then, for whatever reason, whether it was the
barriers that science-fiction authors of color faced being colossal,
or a lack of interest in the field... there just wouldn't have been
any authors of color he is likely to have even heard of.
Back in the day, women writers would use male pseudonyms in order
to get published. Were there, does anybody know, any writers of
color who submitted works by mail to disguise their ethnicity?
--
Didn't everyone submit their work by mail?

John M. Faucette was black, something I did not know until recently, but
I don't think he was hiding it, he just never reached the stature of having
a picture profile in an "about the author" back pages.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Quadibloc
2021-07-14 16:21:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
John M. Faucette was black, something I did not know until recently, but
I don't think he was hiding it, he just never reached the stature of having
a picture profile in an "about the author" back pages.
Until I saw an article by him in Datamation, which used to include pictures of the
author at the ends of articles, I didn't know that Ivan Flores, the author of a number
of very popular books about various aspects of the computer field during the 1960s,
was black.

John Savard
James Nicoll
2021-07-14 17:49:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
Orbit 3 edited by Damon Knight
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/and-had-some-fun
It's true that future anthologies in the Orbit series probably won't
have an increased proportion of authors of color.
However, at the time they were produced, that would likely not be
something that could be entirely put down to any bigotry on Damon
Knight's part. Back then, for whatever reason, whether it was the
barriers that science-fiction authors of color faced being colossal,
or a lack of interest in the field... there just wouldn't have been
any authors of color he is likely to have even heard of.
Back in the day, women writers would use male pseudonyms in order
to get published. Were there, does anybody know, any writers of
color who submitted works by mail to disguise their ethnicity?
--
Didn't everyone submit their work by mail?
John M. Faucette was black, something I did not know until recently, but
I don't think he was hiding it, he just never reached the stature of having
a picture profile in an "about the author" back pages.
Marc Olden was black but I don't think this was secret so much as I was
fantastically ignorant.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-14 20:57:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
Orbit 3 edited by Damon Knight
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/and-had-some-fun
It's true that future anthologies in the Orbit series probably won't
have an increased proportion of authors of color.
However, at the time they were produced, that would likely not be
something that could be entirely put down to any bigotry on Damon
Knight's part. Back then, for whatever reason, whether it was the
barriers that science-fiction authors of color faced being colossal,
or a lack of interest in the field... there just wouldn't have been
any authors of color he is likely to have even heard of.
Back in the day, women writers would use male pseudonyms in order
to get published. Were there, does anybody know, any writers of
color who submitted works by mail to disguise their ethnicity?
--
Didn't everyone submit their work by mail?
Mostly, yes, unless they actually lived within easy travelling
distance of the editor/publisher. Isaac Asimov, for example,
traveled to the Street & Smith offices to hand in his MSS., in
part so he could get a chance to talk to Campbell.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
William Hyde
2021-07-14 20:36:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
Orbit 3 edited by Damon Knight
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/and-had-some-fun
It's true that future anthologies in the Orbit series probably won't
have an increased proportion of authors of color.
However, at the time they were produced, that would likely not be
something that could be entirely put down to any bigotry on Damon
Knight's part. Back then, for whatever reason, whether it was the
barriers that science-fiction authors of color faced being colossal,
or a lack of interest in the field... there just wouldn't have been
any authors of color he is likely to have even heard of.
Back in the day, women writers would use male pseudonyms in order
to get published. Were there, does anybody know, any writers of
color who submitted works by mail to disguise their ethnicity?
Charles Tanner was black, but living far from NY he must have
submitted by mail. I don't get the impression there was enough
money for him to go to a convention (not at half a cent a word,
anyway). I don't know when this became known. I certainly
did not know when I read Tanner's work in Asimov's "Before the
Golden Age" circa 1970.

Wollheim met Delaney face to face before he published "The Fall of the Towers"
but as far as I can recall there's no hint in the latter's memoirs that W was
at all put out by this.

William Hyde
Titus G
2021-07-14 22:24:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
Orbit 3 edited by Damon Knight
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/and-had-some-fun
It's true that future anthologies in the Orbit series probably won't
have an increased proportion of authors of color.
However, at the time they were produced, that would likely not be
something that could be entirely put down to any bigotry on Damon
Knight's part. Back then, for whatever reason, whether it was the
barriers that science-fiction authors of color faced being colossal,
or a lack of interest in the field... there just wouldn't have been
any authors of color he is likely to have even heard of.
Back in the day, women writers would use male pseudonyms in order
to get published. Were there, does anybody know, any writers of
color who submitted works by mail to disguise their ethnicity?
Charles Tanner was black, but living far from NY he must have
submitted by mail. I don't get the impression there was enough
money for him to go to a convention (not at half a cent a word,
anyway). I don't know when this became known. I certainly
did not know when I read Tanner's work in Asimov's "Before the
Golden Age" circa 1970.
Wollheim met Delaney face to face before he published "The Fall of the Towers"
but as far as I can recall there's no hint in the latter's memoirs that W was
at all put out by this.
William Hyde
I know nothing about this but read this 2015 article:
https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/samuel-delany-and-the-past-and-future-of-science-fiction
which some of you will no doubt know already, but for those don't, it is
an interesting read.
Chris Buckley
2021-07-14 18:14:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
Orbit 3 edited by Damon Knight
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/and-had-some-fun
It's true that future anthologies in the Orbit series probably won't
have an increased proportion of authors of color.
However, at the time they were produced, that would likely not be
something that could be entirely put down to any bigotry on Damon
Knight's part. Back then, for whatever reason, whether it was the
barriers that science-fiction authors of color faced being colossal,
or a lack of interest in the field... there just wouldn't have been
any authors of color he is likely to have even heard of.
So your claim is that Damon Knight at that time had never heard of
Samuel Delany? That says much more about you than Knight!!

Chris
Quadibloc
2021-07-14 23:17:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Buckley
So your claim is that Damon Knight at that time had never heard of
Samuel Delany? That says much more about you than Knight!!
I had no idea that Samuel R. Delany was anything other than white.

Perhaps one of his stories will appear in one of the Orbit anthologies.

John Savard
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2021-07-15 19:17:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
Orbit 3 edited by Damon Knight
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/and-had-some-fun
It's true that future anthologies in the Orbit series probably won't
have an increased proportion of authors of color.
However, at the time they were produced, that would likely not be
something that could be entirely put down to any bigotry on Damon
Knight's part. Back then, for whatever reason, whether it was the
barriers that science-fiction authors of color faced being colossal,
or a lack of interest in the field... there just wouldn't have been
any authors of color he is likely to have even heard of.
So your claim is that Damon Knight at that time had never heard of
Samuel Delany? That says much more about you than Knight!!
Delany's first story was published in 1967. Orbit 3 came out in 1968.
Given the lead time involved in book publishing, it seems possible to
me that in fact Knight had NOT yet noticed Delany when he was
assembling the anthology. Nor, if he had, would he have necessarily
known anything about Delany's ethnicity.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Tom Derringer & the Steam-Powered Saurians.
William Hyde
2021-07-15 19:55:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
Orbit 3 edited by Damon Knight
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/and-had-some-fun
It's true that future anthologies in the Orbit series probably won't
have an increased proportion of authors of color.
However, at the time they were produced, that would likely not be
something that could be entirely put down to any bigotry on Damon
Knight's part. Back then, for whatever reason, whether it was the
barriers that science-fiction authors of color faced being colossal,
or a lack of interest in the field... there just wouldn't have been
any authors of color he is likely to have even heard of.
So your claim is that Damon Knight at that time had never heard of
Samuel Delany? That says much more about you than Knight!!
Delany's first story was published in 1967. Orbit 3 came out in 1968.
Given the lead time involved in book publishing, it seems possible to
me that in fact Knight had NOT yet noticed Delany when he was
assembling the anthology.
Delany was nominated for a nebula with "The ballad of Beta-2" in 1966. In
the few years preceding his "fall of the towers" trilogy was published, and
somewhere in there was "The Jewels of Aptor". Knight must have known
of him, at least in 65 and I would suspect much earlier. Whether they
had met is another question, but Delany was no hermit. If they
hadn't met, he'd certainly have known people who had met Delaney.

TFOTT seemed like a marvel when I first read it on summer vacation
about 1966. All I remember now is that crushed eggshells are an
antidote to some poison or other. I think of this almost every time
I crack an egg.


William Hyde
Michael F. Stemper
2021-07-15 20:34:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Delany's first story was published in 1967. Orbit 3 came out in 1968.
Given the lead time involved in book publishing, it seems possible to
me that in fact Knight had NOT yet noticed Delany when he was
assembling the anthology.
Delany was nominated for a nebula with "The ballad of Beta-2" in 1966. In
the few years preceding his "fall of the towers" trilogy was published, and
somewhere in there was "The Jewels of Aptor".
No need for guessing; the ISFDB sees all, knows all, tells all:
<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?22>
Specifically, it shows a publication date of 1962 for _The Jewels of
Aptor_.
Post by William Hyde
TFOTT seemed like a marvel when I first read it on summer vacation
about 1966.
Do you mean _The Towers of Toron_? The second novel in _The Fall of the
Towers_? Because ISFDB doesn't show the omnibus as having been published
until 1970.
Post by William Hyde
All I remember now is that crushed eggshells are an
antidote to some poison or other.
Did this have something to do with the load of spoiled fish? I don't
think that the egshells made it into the version of _The Towers of
Toron_ that is in _The Fall of the Towers_.

SRD had a bit of a preface, talking about the rewrite that he did for
the omnibus.
--
Michael F. Stemper
A preposition is something you should never end a sentence with.
Chris Buckley
2021-07-16 02:52:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
Orbit 3 edited by Damon Knight
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/and-had-some-fun
It's true that future anthologies in the Orbit series probably won't
have an increased proportion of authors of color.
However, at the time they were produced, that would likely not be
something that could be entirely put down to any bigotry on Damon
Knight's part. Back then, for whatever reason, whether it was the
barriers that science-fiction authors of color faced being colossal,
or a lack of interest in the field... there just wouldn't have been
any authors of color he is likely to have even heard of.
So your claim is that Damon Knight at that time had never heard of
Samuel Delany? That says much more about you than Knight!!
Delany's first story was published in 1967. Orbit 3 came out in 1968.
Given the lead time involved in book publishing, it seems possible to
me that in fact Knight had NOT yet noticed Delany when he was
assembling the anthology.
Delany was nominated for a nebula with "The ballad of Beta-2" in 1966. In
the few years preceding his "fall of the towers" trilogy was published, and
somewhere in there was "The Jewels of Aptor". Knight must have known
of him, at least in 65 and I would suspect much earlier. Whether they
had met is another question, but Delany was no hermit. If they
hadn't met, he'd certainly have known people who had met Delaney.
As you say Delany had been publishing for 5-6 years by 1968. I don't
think there's much question that Knight and Delany knew each other by
then. Delany started attending the Milford Conference (hosted by
Knight, Wilhelm et al) in 1966 and stayed at Knight's house there for
weeks some time in the 1960s (I don't know if that was before Orbit 3
though).

Chris
a***@yahoo.com
2021-07-16 20:31:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Orbit 3 edited by Damon Knight
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/and-had-some-fun
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
I keep reading this as "Damon Knight's Obit, edited by Damon Knight" which is a nifty trick.
Quadibloc
2021-07-16 20:49:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
I keep reading this as "Damon Knight's Obit, edited by Damon Knight" which is a nifty trick.
Why? Meyer Dolinsky's O.B.I.T. was written by him... (The Outer Limits, season 7, episode 1)

John Savard

Loading...