Discussion:
[ot] mythological question
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James Nicoll
2020-02-08 16:41:04 UTC
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Did Persephone marry beneath her?
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Dorothy J Heydt
2020-02-08 16:56:01 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Did Persephone marry beneath her?
If you're not simply making a pun ...

Then, since it was marriage-by-capture, rape in the original
sense (Latin _raptus_, kidnapping), you could argue that she
didn't marry at all, but was forcibly married.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Robert Carnegie
2020-02-08 19:59:52 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by James Nicoll
Did Persephone marry beneath her?
If you're not simply making a pun ...
Then, since it was marriage-by-capture, rape in the original
sense (Latin _raptus_, kidnapping), you could argue that she
didn't marry at all, but was forcibly married.
Google may be wiser than me since it doesn't seem
to want to give me a translation to Greek of the maxim
"All gods are", er, illegitimate. So far, I've had
"evil", "orphans", and "illegitimate".

Persephone's parents Zeus and Demeter, and Hades,
and Zeus's wife Hera, are all siblings. Someone
called "the Orphics", says Wikipedia, believed
that Hades /is/ Zeus; this doesn't help.

And it's because of all that that it's winter, yes?

A poet of Glasgow wrote:

"Winter's came, the snow has fell
Wee Josie's nose is froze as well
Wee Josie's frozen nose is skintit
Winter's diabolic, intit?"
D B Davis
2020-02-08 21:34:17 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by James Nicoll
Did Persephone marry beneath her?
If you're not simply making a pun ...
Then, since it was marriage-by-capture, rape in the original
sense (Latin _raptus_, kidnapping), you could argue that she
didn't marry at all, but was forcibly married.
Google may be wiser than me since it doesn't seem
to want to give me a translation to Greek of the maxim
"All gods are", er, illegitimate. So far, I've had
"evil", "orphans", and "illegitimate".
Persephone's parents Zeus and Demeter, and Hades,
and Zeus's wife Hera, are all siblings. Someone
called "the Orphics", says Wikipedia, believed
that Hades /is/ Zeus; this doesn't help.
And it's because of all that that it's winter, yes?
"Winter's came, the snow has fell
Wee Josie's nose is froze as well
Wee Josie's frozen nose is skintit
Winter's diabolic, intit?"
LOL at your wily wit, James. Persephone was forced to settle for a
slovenly soiled slob.

Robert, you may recall my fondness for bing. It translates "All gods are
illegitimate." as Όλοι οι θεοί είναι παράνομοι. (It looks a lot like
_Euclid's Elements in Greek_ to me.)
Too bad that it's all Greek to me. Your judgment's better than mine
as to the translation's accuracy.



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Robert Carnegie
2020-02-09 02:29:53 UTC
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Post by D B Davis
Robert, you may recall my fondness for bing. It translates "All gods are
illegitimate." as Όλοι οι θεοί είναι παράνομοι. (It looks a lot like
_Euclid's Elements in Greek_ to me.)
Too bad that it's all Greek to me. Your judgment's better than mine
as to the translation's accuracy.
Ah, I cheated: clicked to translate it back to English
again. But I didn't get out what I put in, so...
I think I did have that one and misdescribed it;
it comes back as "All gods are illegal." I was
trying to say that their parents didn't know each
other very well.
J. Clarke
2020-02-09 03:39:21 UTC
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On Sat, 8 Feb 2020 18:29:53 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Robert, you may recall my fondness for bing. It translates "All gods are
illegitimate." as ???? ?? ???? ????? ?????????. (It looks a lot like
_Euclid's Elements in Greek_ to me.)
Too bad that it's all Greek to me. Your judgment's better than mine
as to the translation's accuracy.
Ah, I cheated: clicked to translate it back to English
again. But I didn't get out what I put in, so...
I think I did have that one and misdescribed it;
it comes back as "All gods are illegal." I was
trying to say that their parents didn't know each
other very well.
Famous, probably apocryphal test of an automated translation system.

Fed "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak", and translating to
Russian and back, it comes up with "The vodka is strong but the meat
is rotten".
h***@gmail.com
2020-02-09 03:59:55 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Robert, you may recall my fondness for bing. It translates "All gods are
illegitimate." as Όλοι οι θεοί είναι παράνομοι. (It looks a lot like
_Euclid's Elements in Greek_ to me.)
Too bad that it's all Greek to me. Your judgment's better than mine
as to the translation's accuracy.
Ah, I cheated: clicked to translate it back to English
again. But I didn't get out what I put in, so...
I think I did have that one and misdescribed it;
it comes back as "All gods are illegal." I was
trying to say that their parents didn't know each
other very well.
Translation isn't a reversible process.
h***@gmail.com
2020-02-09 04:02:10 UTC
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Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Robert, you may recall my fondness for bing. It translates "All gods are
illegitimate." as Όλοι οι θεοί είναι παράνομοι. (It looks a lot like
_Euclid's Elements in Greek_ to me.)
Too bad that it's all Greek to me. Your judgment's better than mine
as to the translation's accuracy.
Ah, I cheated: clicked to translate it back to English
again. But I didn't get out what I put in, so...
I think I did have that one and misdescribed it;
it comes back as "All gods are illegal." I was
trying to say that their parents didn't know each
other very well.
Translation isn't a reversible process.
Machine Translation anyway
D B Davis
2020-02-09 13:29:18 UTC
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Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Robert, you may recall my fondness for bing. It translates "All gods are
illegitimate." as Όλοι οι θεοί είναι παράνομοι. (It looks a lot like
_Euclid's Elements in Greek_ to me.)
Too bad that it's all Greek to me. Your judgment's better than mine
as to the translation's accuracy.
Ah, I cheated: clicked to translate it back to English
again. But I didn't get out what I put in, so...
I think I did have that one and misdescribed it;
it comes back as "All gods are illegal." I was
trying to say that their parents didn't know each
other very well.
Translation isn't a reversible process.
Machine Translation anyway
On the other hand, a transformation function f(z) is /one-to-one/ if
it maps set A into set B; and its inverse function z = g(w), maps set B
back into set A. In other words, when the following holds:

g(f(z)) = z for all z in A and
f(g(w)) = w for all w in B.

My eyes happened upon the preliminary description of the Rhennius
machine aftereffects whilst reading _analog_'s _Doorways in the Sand_
(Zelazny) serialization that Dorothy more-or-less recommended as an
example of sfnal chirality. Here's a pertinent passage that may prove of
interest:

... I examined the penny on which Lincoln faced to the left.
It looked precisely the way a penny would look if I were
regarding it in a mirror, reversed lettering and all.
... In that its first journey through the innards of the
thing had reversed the coin, I had assumed that running it
through the works again would return it to normal. Instead,
I now held a metal disk on which the design was properly
oriented, but was incised, intaglio-like, rather than raised.
This applied to both sides, and in the place of the milling
the edges were step-recessed, like a train wheel.

Given how it's Zelazny, readers almost a expect our protagonist to take
yet another cigarette break in order to ponder the implications.

Note.

[1] My original followup botched the Subject: header. And now, by way of
a happy accident, my Sfnal chirality Subject: becomes pertinent
after all.



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Paul S Person
2020-02-09 17:38:54 UTC
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On Sat, 8 Feb 2020 11:59:52 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by James Nicoll
Did Persephone marry beneath her?
If you're not simply making a pun ...
Then, since it was marriage-by-capture, rape in the original
sense (Latin _raptus_, kidnapping), you could argue that she
didn't marry at all, but was forcibly married.
Google may be wiser than me since it doesn't seem
to want to give me a translation to Greek of the maxim
"All gods are", er, illegitimate. So far, I've had
"evil", "orphans", and "illegitimate".
Persephone's parents Zeus and Demeter, and Hades,
and Zeus's wife Hera, are all siblings. Someone
called "the Orphics", says Wikipedia, believed
that Hades /is/ Zeus; this doesn't help.
And it's because of all that that it's winter, yes?
Yes.

Demeter mourns when Persephone is underground.
Post by Robert Carnegie
"Winter's came, the snow has fell
Wee Josie's nose is froze as well
Wee Josie's frozen nose is skintit
Winter's diabolic, intit?"
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
David Johnston
2020-02-10 00:08:00 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by James Nicoll
Did Persephone marry beneath her?
If you're not simply making a pun ...
Then, since it was marriage-by-capture, rape in the original
sense (Latin _raptus_, kidnapping), you could argue that she
didn't marry at all, but was forcibly married.
I suspect that that if the girl's parents didn't assent then it was
"raptus" even if she was willing running away with him.

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