Discussion:
[tor dot com] Five Classic SFF Novels About Environmental Disaster
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pete...@gmail.com
2021-07-26 14:34:47 UTC
Permalink
Five Classic SFF Novels About Environmental Disaster
https://www.tor.com/2021/07/26/five-classic-sff-novels-about-environmental-disaster/
Surprised you didn't include Ballard - he did at least 4 of these.

In Re the Brunner. Last week(?) the afternoon sun here in MA was a strange orange-red, due
to the fires in West Coast states.

pt
Paul S Person
2021-07-26 16:21:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Five Classic SFF Novels About Environmental Disaster
https://www.tor.com/2021/07/26/five-classic-sff-novels-about-environmental-disaster/
Surprised you didn't include Ballard - he did at least 4 of these.
In Re the Brunner. Last week(?) the afternoon sun here in MA was a strange orange-red, due
to the fires in West Coast states.
Are you one of the areas being flooded out by the rains?

Perhaps you should collect that water and send it to the West!
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Scott Lurndal
2021-07-26 17:33:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Five Classic SFF Novels About Environmental Disaster
https://www.tor.com/2021/07/26/five-classic-sff-novels-about-environmental-disaster/
Post by ***@gmail.com
Surprised you didn't include Ballard - he did at least 4 of these.
In Re the Brunner. Last week(?) the afternoon sun here in MA was a
strange orange-red, due
Post by ***@gmail.com
to the fires in West Coast states.
Are you one of the areas being flooded out by the rains?
Perhaps you should collect that water and send it to the West!
If only!
FWIW, here in the Bay Area it's been dry as a bone, and both fire
Although there is a 20% chance of thunderstorms today in the
Bay Area, and they've already had a few hundreths of an inch
today in Pasadena.

Unfortunately, they're more likely to start fires than supress them.
pete...@gmail.com
2021-07-27 03:50:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Five Classic SFF Novels About Environmental Disaster
https://www.tor.com/2021/07/26/five-classic-sff-novels-about-environmental-disaster/
Surprised you didn't include Ballard - he did at least 4 of these.
In Re the Brunner. Last week(?) the afternoon sun here in MA was a strange orange-red, due
to the fires in West Coast states.
Are you one of the areas being flooded out by the rains?
Perhaps you should collect that water and send it to the West!
Some parts of the state have had the wettest July on record - over 100 years.
.
Pt
Paul S Person
2021-07-27 16:27:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Five Classic SFF Novels About Environmental Disaster
https://www.tor.com/2021/07/26/five-classic-sff-novels-about-environmental-disaster/
Post by ***@gmail.com
Surprised you didn't include Ballard - he did at least 4 of these.
In Re the Brunner. Last week(?) the afternoon sun here in MA was a
strange orange-red, due
Post by ***@gmail.com
to the fires in West Coast states.
Are you one of the areas being flooded out by the rains?
Perhaps you should collect that water and send it to the West!
If only!
FWIW, here in the Bay Area it's been dry as a bone, and both fire
control and agriculture could use a series of
not-quite-flood-level rainstorms. The temperatures, on the other
hand, have been in the mid-70s Fahrenheit. The weather page
keeps on predicting temps in the 80s next Tuesday, but Tuesday
comes and the 80s don't. Today, it's saying 85 tomorrow and
various 80s through Friday. We'll see.
OTOH, friends of mine who live further inland have had to
evacuate, taking necessities such as computers, plus their cats
(they have no children), to go live with Mom out of the danger
zone. (They've been living in that part of the State for years,
because they inherited a house there. It was a good deal, till
recently.)
A week ago, when I went out to take my garbage bin (which the
collectors leave sitting, uncovered, on the lid) I saw ... water ...
inside!

I wouldn't say it rained, but "sprinkled" might not be unreasonable.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-27 18:08:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by ***@gmail.com
Five Classic SFF Novels About Environmental Disaster
https://www.tor.com/2021/07/26/five-classic-sff-novels-about-environmental-disaster/
Post by ***@gmail.com
Surprised you didn't include Ballard - he did at least 4 of these.
In Re the Brunner. Last week(?) the afternoon sun here in MA was a
strange orange-red, due
Post by ***@gmail.com
to the fires in West Coast states.
Are you one of the areas being flooded out by the rains?
Perhaps you should collect that water and send it to the West!
If only!
FWIW, here in the Bay Area it's been dry as a bone, and both fire
control and agriculture could use a series of
not-quite-flood-level rainstorms. The temperatures, on the other
hand, have been in the mid-70s Fahrenheit. The weather page
keeps on predicting temps in the 80s next Tuesday, but Tuesday
comes and the 80s don't. Today, it's saying 85 tomorrow and
various 80s through Friday. We'll see.
OTOH, friends of mine who live further inland have had to
evacuate, taking necessities such as computers, plus their cats
(they have no children), to go live with Mom out of the danger
zone. (They've been living in that part of the State for years,
because they inherited a house there. It was a good deal, till
recently.)
A week ago, when I went out to take my garbage bin (which the
collectors leave sitting, uncovered, on the lid) I saw ... water ...
inside!
I wouldn't say it rained, but "sprinkled" might not be unreasonable.
Some is better than none, and it's also better than way too much.

Weather page is still saying Vallejo's going to have a high of 83
today. At 11 AM, it's just reached 70.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Michael F. Stemper
2021-07-28 14:57:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
A week ago, when I went out to take my garbage bin (which the
collectors leave sitting, uncovered, on the lid) I saw ... water ...
inside!
I wouldn't say it rained, but "sprinkled" might not be unreasonable.
Some is better than none, and it's also better than way too much.
Weather page is still saying Vallejo's going to have a high of 83
today. At 11 AM, it's just reached 70.
They say that Wisconsin will cool down to that range tomorrow, but I'm
not holding my breath.
--
Michael F. Stemper
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him talk like Mr. Ed
by rubbing peanut butter on his gums.
Scott Lurndal
2021-07-28 15:12:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
A week ago, when I went out to take my garbage bin (which the
collectors leave sitting, uncovered, on the lid) I saw ... water ...
inside!
I wouldn't say it rained, but "sprinkled" might not be unreasonable.
Some is better than none, and it's also better than way too much.
Weather page is still saying Vallejo's going to have a high of 83
today. At 11 AM, it's just reached 70.
They say that Wisconsin will cool down to that range tomorrow, but I'm
not holding my breath.
Note that in Vallejo, when the high temp is 83F, the RH will
likely be less than 10%, while in Wisconsin, when the temp is
83F, the RH is likely to be over 60%. BTDT.

A few miles south of Vallejo, in santa clara county wine country, the
RH curve is the inverse of the temperature curve. The
hygrometer read 1% RH a couple of days ago when it was 88F, and
55% when it was 54F that morning.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-28 15:23:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
A week ago, when I went out to take my garbage bin (which the
collectors leave sitting, uncovered, on the lid) I saw ... water ...
inside!
I wouldn't say it rained, but "sprinkled" might not be unreasonable.
Some is better than none, and it's also better than way too much.
Weather page is still saying Vallejo's going to have a high of 83
today. At 11 AM, it's just reached 70.
They say that Wisconsin will cool down to that range tomorrow, but I'm
not holding my breath.
Note that in Vallejo, when the high temp is 83F, the RH will
likely be less than 10%, while in Wisconsin, when the temp is
83F, the RH is likely to be over 60%. BTDT.
Ouch.
Post by Scott Lurndal
A few miles south of Vallejo, in santa clara county wine country, the
RH curve is the inverse of the temperature curve. The
hygrometer read 1% RH a couple of days ago when it was 88F, and
55% when it was 54F that morning.
Sort of counter-intuitive, but if thoser were the numbers....
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Michael F. Stemper
2021-07-28 20:16:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Weather page is still saying Vallejo's going to have a high of 83
today. At 11 AM, it's just reached 70.
They say that Wisconsin will cool down to that range tomorrow, but I'm
not holding my breath.
Note that in Vallejo, when the high temp is 83F, the RH will
likely be less than 10%, while in Wisconsin, when the temp is
83F, the RH is likely to be over 60%. BTDT.
All together now: "But it's a dryyyy heat!"

I'll take any respite we get, and it now looks as if we'll stay under
90 F today. Small blessings.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-28 15:20:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
A week ago, when I went out to take my garbage bin (which the
collectors leave sitting, uncovered, on the lid) I saw ... water ...
inside!
I wouldn't say it rained, but "sprinkled" might not be unreasonable.
Some is better than none, and it's also better than way too much.
Weather page is still saying Vallejo's going to have a high of 83
today. At 11 AM, it's just reached 70.
Update: it got to *93*.

Weather page, which *was* predicting 80s through Friday, is now
talking about mid-70s for the rest of the week.
Post by Michael F. Stemper
They say that Wisconsin will cool down to that range tomorrow, but I'm
not holding my breath.
Crossing fingers.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2021-07-28 16:27:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
A week ago, when I went out to take my garbage bin (which the
collectors leave sitting, uncovered, on the lid) I saw ... water ...
inside!
I wouldn't say it rained, but "sprinkled" might not be unreasonable.
Some is better than none, and it's also better than way too much.
Weather page is still saying Vallejo's going to have a high of 83
today. At 11 AM, it's just reached 70.
Update: it got to *93*.
Weather page, which *was* predicting 80s through Friday, is now
talking about mid-70s for the rest of the week.
Post by Michael F. Stemper
They say that Wisconsin will cool down to that range tomorrow, but I'm
not holding my breath.
Crossing fingers.
Some years back (10 years? 15 years? 20 years?), while the /rest/ of
the country was experiencing hot weather (not necessarily unseasonably
hot, but hot nonetheless) we were experience ... grey skies and temps
in the sixties.

For about two weeks, the forcast for the current and following four
days was:

60s
60s
60s
60s
90s

That is, if you put them together, you got:

Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri
Mon 60s
Tue 60s 60s
Wed 60s 60s 60s
Thu 60s 60s 60s 60s
Fri 90s 60s 60s 60s 60s
Sat 90s 60s 60s
Sun 90s 60s

It was as if their forcasting software was actually capable of only
going out /four/ days, not five, so on the fifth day it just took it
for granted that we would be getting clear sunny skies and hot weather
too.

Morons.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
James Nicoll
2021-07-28 16:39:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
A week ago, when I went out to take my garbage bin (which the
collectors leave sitting, uncovered, on the lid) I saw ... water ...
inside!
I wouldn't say it rained, but "sprinkled" might not be unreasonable.
Some is better than none, and it's also better than way too much.
Weather page is still saying Vallejo's going to have a high of 83
today. At 11 AM, it's just reached 70.
Update: it got to *93*.
Weather page, which *was* predicting 80s through Friday, is now
talking about mid-70s for the rest of the week.
Post by Michael F. Stemper
They say that Wisconsin will cool down to that range tomorrow, but I'm
not holding my breath.
Crossing fingers.
Some years back (10 years? 15 years? 20 years?), while the /rest/ of
the country was experiencing hot weather (not necessarily unseasonably
hot, but hot nonetheless) we were experience ... grey skies and temps
in the sixties.
For about two weeks, the forcast for the current and following four
60s
60s
60s
60s
90s
Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri
Mon 60s
Tue 60s 60s
Wed 60s 60s 60s
Thu 60s 60s 60s 60s
Fri 90s 60s 60s 60s 60s
Sat 90s 60s 60s
Sun 90s 60s
It was as if their forcasting software was actually capable of only
going out /four/ days, not five, so on the fifth day it just took it
for granted that we would be getting clear sunny skies and hot weather
too.
Morons.
Have you seen Rick Mercer's Seven Day Weather Report?


--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
William Hyde
2021-07-28 22:58:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
A week ago, when I went out to take my garbage bin (which the
collectors leave sitting, uncovered, on the lid) I saw ... water ...
inside!
I wouldn't say it rained, but "sprinkled" might not be unreasonable.
Some is better than none, and it's also better than way too much.
Weather page is still saying Vallejo's going to have a high of 83
today. At 11 AM, it's just reached 70.
Update: it got to *93*.
Weather page, which *was* predicting 80s through Friday, is now
talking about mid-70s for the rest of the week.
Post by Michael F. Stemper
They say that Wisconsin will cool down to that range tomorrow, but I'm
not holding my breath.
Crossing fingers.
Some years back (10 years? 15 years? 20 years?), while the /rest/ of
the country was experiencing hot weather (not necessarily unseasonably
hot, but hot nonetheless) we were experience ... grey skies and temps
in the sixties.
For about two weeks, the forcast for the current and following four
60s
60s
60s
60s
90s
Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri
Mon 60s
Tue 60s 60s
Wed 60s 60s 60s
Thu 60s 60s 60s 60s
Fri 90s 60s 60s 60s 60s
Sat 90s 60s 60s
Sun 90s 60s
It was as if their forcasting software was actually capable of only
going out /four/ days, not five, so on the fifth day it just took it
for granted that we would be getting clear sunny skies and hot weather
too.
That really depends on the time in question. I attended and gave some weather
briefings in 90 and 91. At that point model output after 48 hours was dubious, in
particular precipitation tended to trend up rapidly.

A much more knowledgeable colleague told me that at five days, the only skill in the
system was in the prediction of the 500 mb height field. In this case skill is measured
as something that is better than persistence.

Forecasts were not simply taken from the computer. They had to be tailored to local
conditions and the cutoff had to be dealt with. Once in a while the computer result
was clearly wrong, and old rules of thumb had to be employed.

Beyond the range of a forecast the best result will be persistence, perhaps modified
by the rules of thumb mentioned above. To use climatology, as you saw done, isn't
far short of a capital offense.

Nowadays, at least in my area, seven day forecasts are quite good. In between I suppose
there was a time when four days were considered to have positive skill, but I wasn't
involved in weather briefing for long.
Post by Paul S Person
Morons.
Lazy morons at that.

William Hyde
Paul S Person
2021-07-29 15:39:06 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 15:58:19 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
A week ago, when I went out to take my garbage bin (which the
collectors leave sitting, uncovered, on the lid) I saw ... water ...
inside!
I wouldn't say it rained, but "sprinkled" might not be unreasonable.
Some is better than none, and it's also better than way too much.
Weather page is still saying Vallejo's going to have a high of 83
today. At 11 AM, it's just reached 70.
Update: it got to *93*.
Weather page, which *was* predicting 80s through Friday, is now
talking about mid-70s for the rest of the week.
Post by Michael F. Stemper
They say that Wisconsin will cool down to that range tomorrow, but I'm
not holding my breath.
Crossing fingers.
Some years back (10 years? 15 years? 20 years?), while the /rest/ of
the country was experiencing hot weather (not necessarily unseasonably
hot, but hot nonetheless) we were experience ... grey skies and temps
in the sixties.
For about two weeks, the forcast for the current and following four
60s
60s
60s
60s
90s
Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri
Mon 60s
Tue 60s 60s
Wed 60s 60s 60s
Thu 60s 60s 60s 60s
Fri 90s 60s 60s 60s 60s
Sat 90s 60s 60s
Sun 90s 60s
It was as if their forcasting software was actually capable of only
going out /four/ days, not five, so on the fifth day it just took it
for granted that we would be getting clear sunny skies and hot weather
too.
That really depends on the time in question. I attended and gave some weather
briefings in 90 and 91. At that point model output after 48 hours was dubious, in
particular precipitation tended to trend up rapidly.
A much more knowledgeable colleague told me that at five days, the only skill in the
system was in the prediction of the 500 mb height field. In this case skill is measured
as something that is better than persistence.
Forecasts were not simply taken from the computer. They had to be tailored to local
conditions and the cutoff had to be dealt with. Once in a while the computer result
was clearly wrong, and old rules of thumb had to be employed.
Beyond the range of a forecast the best result will be persistence, perhaps modified
by the rules of thumb mentioned above. To use climatology, as you saw done, isn't
far short of a capital offense.
Excuses, excuses.

If you /can/ do it, do it. If you /can't/ do it, don't do it. At least
not in public.

Keep in mind this was quite some time ago. And we were an exception to
pretty much everywhere else in the continental USA.
Post by William Hyde
Nowadays, at least in my area, seven day forecasts are quite good. In between I suppose
there was a time when four days were considered to have positive skill, but I wasn't
involved in weather briefing for long.
Yes, they do seem to be a bit better.

We do still occasioinally get some variance on just /when/ the rain
will come or the sun will come out, usually by one day one way or the
other. But nothing as blatantly stupid as the above.
Post by William Hyde
Post by Paul S Person
Morons.
Lazy morons at that.
William Hyde
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Kevrob
2021-07-28 23:38:52 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
A week ago, when I went out to take my garbage bin (which the
collectors leave sitting, uncovered, on the lid) I saw ... water ...
inside!
I wouldn't say it rained, but "sprinkled" might not be unreasonable.
Some is better than none, and it's also better than way too much.
Weather page is still saying Vallejo's going to have a high of 83
today. At 11 AM, it's just reached 70.
--
[Vent]

Pet Peeve Dept:

People who let garbage cans/bins or their lids collect standing
water. It encourages the growth of mosquitos! I'd prefer the
bins be stood on end, with the lid set on what is normally the
bottom, and the top of the lid facing the sky. Water will run off
from that set-up onto ground or pavement. It also discourages
passing folks from dropping who-knows-what in your empty
container, once the trash has been collected. The landlord
sends someone out to move the bins the day before "trash
day," and that fellow leaves the lids wherever. I'd just as soon
handle that chore myself, but apparently some neighbors can't
be trusted to remember that it is Tuesday, or just aren't around
to roll the cans out.

It's a little thing, but we need neither EEE* nor Zika added to COVID
on our list of troubles.

* https://www.cdc.gov/easternequineencephalitis/index.html

[/Vent}
--
Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-29 00:47:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
A week ago, when I went out to take my garbage bin (which the
collectors leave sitting, uncovered, on the lid) I saw ... water ...
inside!
I wouldn't say it rained, but "sprinkled" might not be unreasonable.
Some is better than none, and it's also better than way too much.
Weather page is still saying Vallejo's going to have a high of 83
today. At 11 AM, it's just reached 70.
--
[Vent]
People who let garbage cans/bins or their lids collect standing
water. It encourages the growth of mosquitos!
*IF* there's been any rain. Sometimes we get lots; other times
(such as last winter, which is supposed to be the rainy season)
we don't get any.

We keep our garbage and recycling in the kitchen until Monday
afternoon, not long before sunset, when Hal hauls both bags out
to the bins in the alley.

But although aluminum cans *could* go into the recycling, we
never do. If we did, some of the locals would come by and dig
through all the recycling, taking the cans out and leaving the
rest of the recycling on the ground.

So westore them in bags till we have enough to justify Hal's
making a trip to the recycling center, where he can get enough
money back just about to pay for the gas required to take them
there.

I'd prefer the
Post by Kevrob
bins be stood on end, with the lid set on what is normally the
bottom, and the top of the lid facing the sky.
I can't quite visualize what you're proposing. Is the lid a
separate piece from the bin? (Ours have hinged lids.)

Or do you, like Hal, take the stuff out just before it can be
picked up? And, unlike Hal, invert the bins as soon as they're
empty?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2021-07-29 03:51:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
A week ago, when I went out to take my garbage bin (which the
collectors leave sitting, uncovered, on the lid) I saw ... water ...
inside!
I wouldn't say it rained, but "sprinkled" might not be unreasonable.
Some is better than none, and it's also better than way too much.
Weather page is still saying Vallejo's going to have a high of 83
today. At 11 AM, it's just reached 70.
--
[Vent]
People who let garbage cans/bins or their lids collect standing
water. It encourages the growth of mosquitos!
*IF* there's been any rain. Sometimes we get lots; other times
(such as last winter, which is supposed to be the rainy season)
we don't get any.
We keep our garbage and recycling in the kitchen until Monday
afternoon, not long before sunset, when Hal hauls both bags out
to the bins in the alley.
But although aluminum cans *could* go into the recycling, we
never do. If we did, some of the locals would come by and dig
through all the recycling, taking the cans out and leaving the
rest of the recycling on the ground.
We too have enterprising individuals wandering the streets (or
following a planned route) before the recycling truck comes,
attempting to collect anything they can redeem. The city may
have a problem with them. If it actually redeems bottles and cans
itself, or sells them in bulk to a recycler, cherry-picking the recycling
stream could be seen as petty larceny! I don't begrudge those folks
the nickel. I do dislike any mess they may leave as they go.
So we store them in bags till we have enough to justify Hal's
making a trip to the recycling center, where he can get enough
money back just about to pay for the gas required to take them
there.
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption. They have machines for the
purpose. I should get a new used vehicle, first. I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus. Maybe when it cools down, some.
I'd prefer the
Post by Kevrob
bins be stood on end, with the lid set on what is normally the
bottom, and the top of the lid facing the sky.
I can't quite visualize what you're proposing. Is the lid a
separate piece from the bin? (Ours have hinged lids.)
Or do you, like Hal, take the stuff out just before it can be
picked up? And, unlike Hal, invert the bins as soon as they're
empty?
--
One has a hinged lid. The other has a round, removable lid.
The second kind should be treated the way I suggested.
Just close the lid on the first.

We do get rain in New England, on the Long Island Sound
coast, and the river valley where I live, 10 miles inland.
Bugs are still going to breed in puddles that don't drain
or evaporate quickly, and in the wetlands near the river.
Those are less likely to make it up the hill to our little
apt house and its lawn in any great number. Best case,
they are dinner for fish, frogs, birds and bats.

The recycling container has holes in the bottom meant to allow
liquid to drip through.

I forgot to list another threat carried by skeeters:
West Nile Virus. They've found some two towns south
of me. Jamestown Canyon virus has been found to the
immediate east.

https://www.ctpost.com/news/article/West-Nile-Virus-now-in-seven-Connecticut-towns-16346072.php

We can't blame Lyme disease on them. Ticks are the
culprit for those.

I pointed out to the landlord today where a kitchen window
needs a repaired or new screen. While the sleeping rooms
all have A/C, allowing us to keep the windows closed, the
common areas do not, and one must have the windows
open and a fan blowing when cooking. Making toast will
set off the smoke alarms! {slight exaggeration}
--
Kevin R
a.a #2310
Dimensional Traveler
2021-07-29 04:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption. They have machines for the
purpose. I should get a new used vehicle, first. I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus. Maybe when it cools down, some.
We used to have some of those machines around here. The guy who owned
them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't making any money
off them. (Or not enough money, same thing either way.) Now I have to
take them all to the local waste disposal authority's buy back site.
Which has been shut down for at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep! Its permanently closed now! Apparently the space was taken by
an upgrade to their sorting capabilities. The nearest facility now is a
ten mile drive each way! <censored>
--
Troll, troll, troll your post gently down the thread
Angrily, angrily, angrily, the net's a nut's scream.
J. Clarke
2021-07-29 10:16:45 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 21:40:02 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption. They have machines for the
purpose. I should get a new used vehicle, first. I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus. Maybe when it cools down, some.
We used to have some of those machines around here. The guy who owned
them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't making any money
off them. (Or not enough money, same thing either way.) Now I have to
take them all to the local waste disposal authority's buy back site.
Which has been shut down for at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep! Its permanently closed now! Apparently the space was taken by
an upgrade to their sorting capabilities. The nearest facility now is a
ten mile drive each way! <censored>
Every grocery store around here has machines that accept cans and
plastic bottles.
Michael F. Stemper
2021-07-30 13:20:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption.  They have machines for the
purpose.  I  should get a new used vehicle, first.  I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus.  Maybe when it cools down, some.
We used to have some of those machines around here.  The guy who owned
them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't making any money
off them.  (Or not enough money, same thing either way.)  Now I have to
take them all to the local waste disposal authority's buy back site.
Which has been shut down for at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep!  Its permanently closed now!  Apparently the space was taken by
an upgrade to their sorting capabilities.  The nearest facility now is a
ten mile drive each way!  <censored>
Wow. You don't have curbside recycling pickup right along with your
trash pickup? Every trash company that I've had since the mid-1990s
did both. My current one even has single-stream recycling, so that
I no longer need to sort into paper, aluminum, glass, ...
--
Michael F. Stemper
Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.
Dimensional Traveler
2021-07-30 13:31:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption.  They have machines for the
purpose.  I  should get a new used vehicle, first.  I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus.  Maybe when it cools down, some.
We used to have some of those machines around here.  The guy who owned
them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't making any money
off them.  (Or not enough money, same thing either way.)  Now I have
to take them all to the local waste disposal authority's buy back
site. Which has been shut down for at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep!  Its permanently closed now!  Apparently the space was taken by
an upgrade to their sorting capabilities.  The nearest facility now is
a ten mile drive each way!  <censored>
Wow. You don't have curbside recycling pickup right along with your
trash pickup? Every trash company that I've had since the mid-1990s
did both. My current one even has single-stream recycling, so that
I no longer need to sort into paper, aluminum, glass, ...
Oh, there's curbside pickup of recyclables. But there's almost no
Redemption Value buy back sites to get back that $0.05 or $0.10 a bottle
we have to pay for a drink container and the like. The whole point of
which was to give people an incentive to recycle.

And the local waste authority has been moving AWAY from single stream
for years. We have "Trash" (Landfill), paper, food-grade plastic &
metal (that "food-grade" is very strict) and compost. And woe the
address that doesn't separate correctly in to the different bins!
--
Troll, troll, troll your post gently down the thread
Angrily, angrily, angrily, the net's a nut's scream.
J. Clarke
2021-07-30 15:30:11 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:31:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption.  They have machines for the
purpose.  I  should get a new used vehicle, first.  I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus.  Maybe when it cools down, some.
We used to have some of those machines around here.  The guy who owned
them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't making any money
off them.  (Or not enough money, same thing either way.)  Now I have
to take them all to the local waste disposal authority's buy back
site. Which has been shut down for at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep!  Its permanently closed now!  Apparently the space was taken by
an upgrade to their sorting capabilities.  The nearest facility now is
a ten mile drive each way!  <censored>
Wow. You don't have curbside recycling pickup right along with your
trash pickup? Every trash company that I've had since the mid-1990s
did both. My current one even has single-stream recycling, so that
I no longer need to sort into paper, aluminum, glass, ...
Oh, there's curbside pickup of recyclables. But there's almost no
Redemption Value buy back sites to get back that $0.05 or $0.10 a bottle
we have to pay for a drink container and the like. The whole point of
which was to give people an incentive to recycle.
And the local waste authority has been moving AWAY from single stream
for years. We have "Trash" (Landfill), paper, food-grade plastic &
metal (that "food-grade" is very strict) and compost. And woe the
address that doesn't separate correctly in to the different bins!
If our Congress was any good they would have the Bureau of Standards
come up with a standard recycling stream that includes oily pizza
boxes, Styrofoam, plastic bags, and soda straws and start fining
recycling companies that can't deal with it.
J. Clarke
2021-07-30 21:56:58 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:41:31 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:31:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption. They have machines for the
purpose. I should get a new used vehicle, first. I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus. Maybe when it cools down, some.
We used to have some of those machines around here. The guy who owned
them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't making any money
off them. (Or not enough money, same thing either way.) Now I have
to take them all to the local waste disposal authority's buy back
site. Which has been shut down for at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep! Its permanently closed now! Apparently the space was taken by
an upgrade to their sorting capabilities. The nearest facility now is
a ten mile drive each way! <censored>
Wow. You don't have curbside recycling pickup right along with your
trash pickup? Every trash company that I've had since the mid-1990s
did both. My current one even has single-stream recycling, so that
I no longer need to sort into paper, aluminum, glass, ...
Oh, there's curbside pickup of recyclables. But there's almost no
Redemption Value buy back sites to get back that $0.05 or $0.10 a bottle
we have to pay for a drink container and the like. The whole point of
which was to give people an incentive to recycle.
And the local waste authority has been moving AWAY from single stream
for years. We have "Trash" (Landfill), paper, food-grade plastic &
metal (that "food-grade" is very strict) and compost. And woe the
address that doesn't separate correctly in to the different bins!
If our Congress was any good they would have the Bureau of Standards
come up with a standard recycling stream that includes oily pizza
boxes, Styrofoam, plastic bags, and soda straws and start fining
recycling companies that can't deal with it.
We burn that. What else would you do with it?
They need to figure out a way to deal with oily paper instead of just
throwing up their hands and saying "we can't deal with it".

As for the rest, it's all plastic of one kind or another, melt it down
and use to make other plastic artifacts.
Given, for a start, everything in that bin is covered with
oily Styrofoam beads, and trickles of soda.
In a properly managed society, IMO, there would be one waste bin all
of whose contents get sorted and reused or destroyed as appropriate.
Yes, it means the reyclers have to work harder. So why should _they_
get an easy ride on the backs of the rest of us?
Scott Lurndal
2021-07-31 00:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:41:31 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:31:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption. They have machines for the
purpose. I should get a new used vehicle, first. I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus. Maybe when it cools down, some.
We used to have some of those machines around here. The guy who owned
them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't making any money
off them. (Or not enough money, same thing either way.) Now I have
to take them all to the local waste disposal authority's buy back
site. Which has been shut down for at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep! Its permanently closed now! Apparently the space was taken by
an upgrade to their sorting capabilities. The nearest facility now is
a ten mile drive each way! <censored>
Wow. You don't have curbside recycling pickup right along with your
trash pickup? Every trash company that I've had since the mid-1990s
did both. My current one even has single-stream recycling, so that
I no longer need to sort into paper, aluminum, glass, ...
Oh, there's curbside pickup of recyclables. But there's almost no
Redemption Value buy back sites to get back that $0.05 or $0.10 a bottle
we have to pay for a drink container and the like. The whole point of
which was to give people an incentive to recycle.
And the local waste authority has been moving AWAY from single stream
for years. We have "Trash" (Landfill), paper, food-grade plastic &
metal (that "food-grade" is very strict) and compost. And woe the
address that doesn't separate correctly in to the different bins!
If our Congress was any good they would have the Bureau of Standards
come up with a standard recycling stream that includes oily pizza
boxes, Styrofoam, plastic bags, and soda straws and start fining
recycling companies that can't deal with it.
We burn that. What else would you do with it?
They need to figure out a way to deal with oily paper instead of just
throwing up their hands and saying "we can't deal with it".
As for the rest, it's all plastic of one kind or another, melt it down
and use to make other plastic artifacts.
Why do you think they haven't tried?

"Moreover, there are 2 types of plastics: thermoset vs.
thermoplastics. Thermoplastics are plastics that can be
re-melted and re-molded into new products, and therefore,
recycled. However, thermoset plastics contain polymers that
cross-link to form an irreversible chemical bond, meaning
that no matter how much heat you apply, they cannot be remelted
into new material and hence, non-recyclable."

"The same piece of plastic can only be recycled about 2-3
times before its quality decreases to the point where
it can no longer be used."


The solution is to not use plastics for single-use purposes.
Dimensional Traveler
2021-07-31 04:02:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:41:31 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:31:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption. They have machines for the
purpose. I should get a new used vehicle, first. I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus. Maybe when it cools down, some.
We used to have some of those machines around here. The guy who owned
them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't making any money
off them. (Or not enough money, same thing either way.) Now I have
to take them all to the local waste disposal authority's buy back
site. Which has been shut down for at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep! Its permanently closed now! Apparently the space was taken by
an upgrade to their sorting capabilities. The nearest facility now is
a ten mile drive each way! <censored>
Wow. You don't have curbside recycling pickup right along with your
trash pickup? Every trash company that I've had since the mid-1990s
did both. My current one even has single-stream recycling, so that
I no longer need to sort into paper, aluminum, glass, ...
Oh, there's curbside pickup of recyclables. But there's almost no
Redemption Value buy back sites to get back that $0.05 or $0.10 a bottle
we have to pay for a drink container and the like. The whole point of
which was to give people an incentive to recycle.
And the local waste authority has been moving AWAY from single stream
for years. We have "Trash" (Landfill), paper, food-grade plastic &
metal (that "food-grade" is very strict) and compost. And woe the
address that doesn't separate correctly in to the different bins!
If our Congress was any good they would have the Bureau of Standards
come up with a standard recycling stream that includes oily pizza
boxes, Styrofoam, plastic bags, and soda straws and start fining
recycling companies that can't deal with it.
We burn that. What else would you do with it?
They need to figure out a way to deal with oily paper instead of just
throwing up their hands and saying "we can't deal with it".
As for the rest, it's all plastic of one kind or another, melt it down
and use to make other plastic artifacts.
Why do you think they haven't tried?
"Moreover, there are 2 types of plastics: thermoset vs.
thermoplastics. Thermoplastics are plastics that can be
re-melted and re-molded into new products, and therefore,
recycled. However, thermoset plastics contain polymers that
cross-link to form an irreversible chemical bond, meaning
that no matter how much heat you apply, they cannot be remelted
into new material and hence, non-recyclable."
"The same piece of plastic can only be recycled about 2-3
times before its quality decreases to the point where
it can no longer be used."
The solution is to not use plastics for single-use purposes.
If only in practice EVERYTHING wasn't single-use today.
--
Troll, troll, troll your post gently down the thread
Angrily, angrily, angrily, the net's a nut's scream.
J. Clarke
2021-08-01 02:44:47 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 21:02:13 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:41:31 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:31:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption. They have machines for the
purpose. I should get a new used vehicle, first. I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus. Maybe when it cools down, some.
We used to have some of those machines around here. The guy who owned
them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't making any money
off them. (Or not enough money, same thing either way.) Now I have
to take them all to the local waste disposal authority's buy back
site. Which has been shut down for at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep! Its permanently closed now! Apparently the space was taken by
an upgrade to their sorting capabilities. The nearest facility now is
a ten mile drive each way! <censored>
Wow. You don't have curbside recycling pickup right along with your
trash pickup? Every trash company that I've had since the mid-1990s
did both. My current one even has single-stream recycling, so that
I no longer need to sort into paper, aluminum, glass, ...
Oh, there's curbside pickup of recyclables. But there's almost no
Redemption Value buy back sites to get back that $0.05 or $0.10 a bottle
we have to pay for a drink container and the like. The whole point of
which was to give people an incentive to recycle.
And the local waste authority has been moving AWAY from single stream
for years. We have "Trash" (Landfill), paper, food-grade plastic &
metal (that "food-grade" is very strict) and compost. And woe the
address that doesn't separate correctly in to the different bins!
If our Congress was any good they would have the Bureau of Standards
come up with a standard recycling stream that includes oily pizza
boxes, Styrofoam, plastic bags, and soda straws and start fining
recycling companies that can't deal with it.
We burn that. What else would you do with it?
They need to figure out a way to deal with oily paper instead of just
throwing up their hands and saying "we can't deal with it".
As for the rest, it's all plastic of one kind or another, melt it down
and use to make other plastic artifacts.
Why do you think they haven't tried?
If they have tried they have not tried hard enough. The problem isn't
the chemistry, the problem is mechanical. Bags get tangled in the
machinery, styrofoam bursts into a cloud of pellets, straws just fall
out. That's a company not doing its job, not valiant effort that
failed.
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Scott Lurndal
"Moreover, there are 2 types of plastics: thermoset vs.
thermoplastics. Thermoplastics are plastics that can be
re-melted and re-molded into new products, and therefore,
recycled. However, thermoset plastics contain polymers that
cross-link to form an irreversible chemical bond, meaning
that no matter how much heat you apply, they cannot be remelted
into new material and hence, non-recyclable."
"The same piece of plastic can only be recycled about 2-3
times before its quality decreases to the point where
it can no longer be used."
Plastic bags are not thermoset and the same technique that created the
long chains in the first place should be able to reestablish them.
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Scott Lurndal
The solution is to not use plastics for single-use purposes.
If only in practice EVERYTHING wasn't single-use today.
No, the solution is to kick the recycling companies in the butt and
keep kicking them until they're actually doing their job. The town I
inhabit wants us to recycle not because it's good for the planet but
because it's good for the budget. They pay somehing like 1/4 as much
for recycling as they do for disposal. And it seems that they're
getting what they pay for.
Magewolf
2021-08-01 18:53:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 21:02:13 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:41:31 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:31:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need
to take to the supermarket for redemption. They have machines
for the purpose. I should get a new used vehicle, first. I
could take 1 bag at a time via bus. Maybe when it cools down,
some.
We used to have some of those machines around here. The guy who
owned them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't
making any money off them. (Or not enough money, same thing
either way.) Now I have to take them all to the local waste
disposal authority's buy back site. Which has been shut down for
at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep! Its permanently closed now! Apparently the space was
taken by an upgrade to their sorting capabilities. The nearest
facility now is a ten mile drive each way! <censored>
Wow. You don't have curbside recycling pickup right along with
your trash pickup? Every trash company that I've had since the
mid-1990s did both. My current one even has single-stream
recycling, so that I no longer need to sort into paper, aluminum,
glass, ...
Oh, there's curbside pickup of recyclables. But there's almost no
Redemption Value buy back sites to get back that $0.05 or $0.10 a
bottle we have to pay for a drink container and the like. The
whole point of which was to give people an incentive to recycle.
And the local waste authority has been moving AWAY from single
stream for years. We have "Trash" (Landfill), paper, food-grade
plastic & metal (that "food-grade" is very strict) and compost.
And woe the address that doesn't separate correctly in to the
different bins!
If our Congress was any good they would have the Bureau of
Standards come up with a standard recycling stream that includes
oily pizza boxes, Styrofoam, plastic bags, and soda straws and
start fining recycling companies that can't deal with it.
We burn that. What else would you do with it?
They need to figure out a way to deal with oily paper instead of just
throwing up their hands and saying "we can't deal with it".
As for the rest, it's all plastic of one kind or another, melt it
down and use to make other plastic artifacts.
Why do you think they haven't tried?
If they have tried they have not tried hard enough. The problem isn't
the chemistry, the problem is mechanical. Bags get tangled in the
machinery, styrofoam bursts into a cloud of pellets, straws just fall
out. That's a company not doing its job, not valiant effort that
failed.
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Scott Lurndal
"Moreover, there are 2 types of plastics: thermoset vs.
thermoplastics. Thermoplastics are plastics that can be re-melted
and re-molded into new products, and therefore, recycled. However,
thermoset plastics contain polymers that cross-link to form an
irreversible chemical bond, meaning that no matter how much heat
you apply, they cannot be remelted into new material and hence,
non-recyclable."
"The same piece of plastic can only be recycled about 2-3
times before its quality decreases to the point where it can no
longer be used."
Plastic bags are not thermoset and the same technique that created the
long chains in the first place should be able to reestablish them.
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Scott Lurndal
The solution is to not use plastics for single-use purposes.
If only in practice EVERYTHING wasn't single-use today.
No, the solution is to kick the recycling companies in the butt and keep
kicking them until they're actually doing their job. The town I inhabit
wants us to recycle not because it's good for the planet but because
it's good for the budget. They pay somehing like 1/4 as much for
recycling as they do for disposal. And it seems that they're getting
what they pay for.
The real problem is that it mostly costs more to recycle than it does to
make new stuff even counting in some kind of landfill tax.
Thomas Koenig
2021-07-31 08:49:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
As for the rest, it's all plastic of one kind or another, melt it down
and use to make other plastic artifacts.
You can do that (and it is being done) but of course there are
some problems such as changes in the polymer during use (polymer
chain degradation, oxidation, additives being used up), the fact
that most polymers are not compatible with each other so that they
cannot be mixed, how to get a relatively pure recycle stream, the
fact that modern plastics films, for example, are multi-component
multi-layer, etc.

It is virtually impossible to get a polymer of the same quality
from direct recycling as it was originally.

Going back to monomers and polymerizing again will be needed.
Paul S Person
2021-07-31 15:57:32 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 08:49:46 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig
Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by J. Clarke
As for the rest, it's all plastic of one kind or another, melt it down
and use to make other plastic artifacts.
You can do that (and it is being done) but of course there are
some problems such as changes in the polymer during use (polymer
chain degradation, oxidation, additives being used up), the fact
that most polymers are not compatible with each other so that they
cannot be mixed, how to get a relatively pure recycle stream, the
fact that modern plastics films, for example, are multi-component
multi-layer, etc.
It is virtually impossible to get a polymer of the same quality
from direct recycling as it was originally.
Actually, an article I read a while back in /Science News/ (which I
think was this one:
<https://www.sciencenews.org/article/chemistry-recycling-plastic-landfills-trash-materials>)
discusses the problem and reports some lab-only techniques that avoid
that problem. In some cases. Maybe. If they can be commercialized.
Post by Thomas Koenig
Going back to monomers and polymerizing again will be needed.
Which may be precisely what the article is talking about --
specifically, in the section titled "Good As New", down toward the end
of the article.

And an attempt at commercialization of (if I understood the article
correctly) breaking PET down appears to be in progress, in France.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Robert Carnegie
2021-07-31 09:42:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:41:31 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:31:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption. They have machines for the
purpose. I should get a new used vehicle, first. I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus. Maybe when it cools down, some.
We used to have some of those machines around here. The guy who owned
them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't making any money
off them. (Or not enough money, same thing either way.) Now I have
to take them all to the local waste disposal authority's buy back
site. Which has been shut down for at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep! Its permanently closed now! Apparently the space was taken by
an upgrade to their sorting capabilities. The nearest facility now is
a ten mile drive each way! <censored>
Wow. You don't have curbside recycling pickup right along with your
trash pickup? Every trash company that I've had since the mid-1990s
did both. My current one even has single-stream recycling, so that
I no longer need to sort into paper, aluminum, glass, ...
Oh, there's curbside pickup of recyclables. But there's almost no
Redemption Value buy back sites to get back that $0.05 or $0.10 a bottle
we have to pay for a drink container and the like. The whole point of
which was to give people an incentive to recycle.
And the local waste authority has been moving AWAY from single stream
for years. We have "Trash" (Landfill), paper, food-grade plastic &
metal (that "food-grade" is very strict) and compost. And woe the
address that doesn't separate correctly in to the different bins!
If our Congress was any good they would have the Bureau of Standards
come up with a standard recycling stream that includes oily pizza
boxes, Styrofoam, plastic bags, and soda straws and start fining
recycling companies that can't deal with it.
We burn that. What else would you do with it?
They need to figure out a way to deal with oily paper instead of just
throwing up their hands and saying "we can't deal with it".
Very well: specify.

But food packaging paper doesn't recycle well anyway.
Post by J. Clarke
As for the rest, it's all plastic of one kind or another, melt it down
and use to make other plastic artifacts.
Given, for a start, everything in that bin is covered with
oily Styrofoam beads, and trickles of soda.
In a properly managed society, IMO, there would be one waste bin all
of whose contents get sorted and reused or destroyed as appropriate.
Yes, it means the reyclers have to work harder. So why should _they_
get an easy ride on the backs of the rest of us?
Turn it around. Why should someone else handle
your trash responsibly if you don't? Who is so much
beneath you that they deserve to do that? And how
much are you willing to pay for that work to be done
on your behalf?

The residual waste stream includes human and
animal excrement, broken glassware (doesn't recycle),
rotten food, other horrors... would you, personally,
accept any product that was "recycled" out of that?
J. Clarke
2021-08-01 02:50:26 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 02:42:20 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:41:31 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:31:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption. They have machines for the
purpose. I should get a new used vehicle, first. I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus. Maybe when it cools down, some.
We used to have some of those machines around here. The guy who owned
them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't making any money
off them. (Or not enough money, same thing either way.) Now I have
to take them all to the local waste disposal authority's buy back
site. Which has been shut down for at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep! Its permanently closed now! Apparently the space was taken by
an upgrade to their sorting capabilities. The nearest facility now is
a ten mile drive each way! <censored>
Wow. You don't have curbside recycling pickup right along with your
trash pickup? Every trash company that I've had since the mid-1990s
did both. My current one even has single-stream recycling, so that
I no longer need to sort into paper, aluminum, glass, ...
Oh, there's curbside pickup of recyclables. But there's almost no
Redemption Value buy back sites to get back that $0.05 or $0.10 a bottle
we have to pay for a drink container and the like. The whole point of
which was to give people an incentive to recycle.
And the local waste authority has been moving AWAY from single stream
for years. We have "Trash" (Landfill), paper, food-grade plastic &
metal (that "food-grade" is very strict) and compost. And woe the
address that doesn't separate correctly in to the different bins!
If our Congress was any good they would have the Bureau of Standards
come up with a standard recycling stream that includes oily pizza
boxes, Styrofoam, plastic bags, and soda straws and start fining
recycling companies that can't deal with it.
We burn that. What else would you do with it?
They need to figure out a way to deal with oily paper instead of just
throwing up their hands and saying "we can't deal with it".
Very well: specify.
But food packaging paper doesn't recycle well anyway.
You're phrasing it wrong. Recycling companies do a poor job of
recycling food packaging paper.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
As for the rest, it's all plastic of one kind or another, melt it down
and use to make other plastic artifacts.
Given, for a start, everything in that bin is covered with
oily Styrofoam beads, and trickles of soda.
In a properly managed society, IMO, there would be one waste bin all
of whose contents get sorted and reused or destroyed as appropriate.
Yes, it means the reyclers have to work harder. So why should _they_
get an easy ride on the backs of the rest of us?
Turn it around. Why should someone else handle
your trash responsibly if you don't?
Because I'm paying them to handle the trash, they're not paying me.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Who is so much
beneath you that they deserve to do that?
"Beneath"? We're paying trash experts to deal with trash. If they
consider doing the job they are paid for to be "beneath" the people
who are paying them that shows that they have an attitude problem.
Post by Robert Carnegie
And how
much are you willing to pay for that work to be done
on your behalf?
How much is it going to cost?
Post by Robert Carnegie
The residual waste stream includes human and
animal excrement, broken glassware (doesn't recycle),
rotten food, other horrors... would you, personally,
accept any product that was "recycled" out of that?
Excrement and rotten food should be composted, not wasted. And in
what universe does broken glass not melt as easily as unbroken glass?

And if the recyclers were doing their job properly then I would accept
any product that was recycled out of that.
Robert Carnegie
2021-08-01 08:50:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 02:42:20 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:41:31 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:31:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption. They have machines for the
purpose. I should get a new used vehicle, first. I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus. Maybe when it cools down, some.
We used to have some of those machines around here. The guy who owned
them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't making any money
off them. (Or not enough money, same thing either way.) Now I have
to take them all to the local waste disposal authority's buy back
site. Which has been shut down for at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep! Its permanently closed now! Apparently the space was taken by
an upgrade to their sorting capabilities. The nearest facility now is
a ten mile drive each way! <censored>
Wow. You don't have curbside recycling pickup right along with your
trash pickup? Every trash company that I've had since the mid-1990s
did both. My current one even has single-stream recycling, so that
I no longer need to sort into paper, aluminum, glass, ...
Oh, there's curbside pickup of recyclables. But there's almost no
Redemption Value buy back sites to get back that $0.05 or $0.10 a bottle
we have to pay for a drink container and the like. The whole point of
which was to give people an incentive to recycle.
And the local waste authority has been moving AWAY from single stream
for years. We have "Trash" (Landfill), paper, food-grade plastic &
metal (that "food-grade" is very strict) and compost. And woe the
address that doesn't separate correctly in to the different bins!
If our Congress was any good they would have the Bureau of Standards
come up with a standard recycling stream that includes oily pizza
boxes, Styrofoam, plastic bags, and soda straws and start fining
recycling companies that can't deal with it.
We burn that. What else would you do with it?
They need to figure out a way to deal with oily paper instead of just
throwing up their hands and saying "we can't deal with it".
Very well: specify.
But food packaging paper doesn't recycle well anyway.
You're phrasing it wrong. Recycling companies do a poor job of
recycling food packaging paper.
You do not know a better way. The correct way is
to use it as fuel.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
As for the rest, it's all plastic of one kind or another, melt it down
and use to make other plastic artifacts.
Given, for a start, everything in that bin is covered with
oily Styrofoam beads, and trickles of soda.
In a properly managed society, IMO, there would be one waste bin all
of whose contents get sorted and reused or destroyed as appropriate.
Yes, it means the reyclers have to work harder. So why should _they_
get an easy ride on the backs of the rest of us?
Turn it around. Why should someone else handle
your trash responsibly if you don't?
Because I'm paying them to handle the trash, they're not paying me.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Who is so much
beneath you that they deserve to do that?
"Beneath"? We're paying trash experts to deal with trash. If they
consider doing the job they are paid for to be "beneath" the people
who are paying them that shows that they have an attitude problem.
Post by Robert Carnegie
And how
much are you willing to pay for that work to be done
on your behalf?
How much is it going to cost?
Oh, well... How much will it cost to have someone stay
in your house to receive your trash items and handle
them for individual recycling? Because that's what
needs to be done. Maybe have them cook and clean
and bathe you, too.

And as for respecting them?

In practice, your recyclables tend to be picked through
!by hand by prisoners, or workfarers, or the destitute,
or foreigners, or destitute foreigners.

If you're offered bottled water by a hawker at an
Indian train station, rest assured that they extracted
that bottle from the heaps of exported American waste,
and peed in it.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
The residual waste stream includes human and
animal excrement, broken glassware (doesn't recycle),
rotten food, other horrors... would you, personally,
accept any product that was "recycled" out of that?
Excrement and rotten food should be composted, not wasted. And in
what universe does broken glass not melt as easily as unbroken glass?
And if the recyclers were doing their job properly then I would accept
any product that was recycled out of that.
You don't mind the little bits of glass then...
And glass tableware is made with different formulas
from food retail bottles and jars. Only the food storage
glass is suitable for recycling. Indeed, there is glass
ovenware; good luck "melting" that.
J. Clarke
2021-08-01 11:30:55 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 01:50:41 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 02:42:20 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:41:31 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:31:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption. They have machines for the
purpose. I should get a new used vehicle, first. I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus. Maybe when it cools down, some.
We used to have some of those machines around here. The guy who owned
them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't making any money
off them. (Or not enough money, same thing either way.) Now I have
to take them all to the local waste disposal authority's buy back
site. Which has been shut down for at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep! Its permanently closed now! Apparently the space was taken by
an upgrade to their sorting capabilities. The nearest facility now is
a ten mile drive each way! <censored>
Wow. You don't have curbside recycling pickup right along with your
trash pickup? Every trash company that I've had since the mid-1990s
did both. My current one even has single-stream recycling, so that
I no longer need to sort into paper, aluminum, glass, ...
Oh, there's curbside pickup of recyclables. But there's almost no
Redemption Value buy back sites to get back that $0.05 or $0.10 a bottle
we have to pay for a drink container and the like. The whole point of
which was to give people an incentive to recycle.
And the local waste authority has been moving AWAY from single stream
for years. We have "Trash" (Landfill), paper, food-grade plastic &
metal (that "food-grade" is very strict) and compost. And woe the
address that doesn't separate correctly in to the different bins!
If our Congress was any good they would have the Bureau of Standards
come up with a standard recycling stream that includes oily pizza
boxes, Styrofoam, plastic bags, and soda straws and start fining
recycling companies that can't deal with it.
We burn that. What else would you do with it?
They need to figure out a way to deal with oily paper instead of just
throwing up their hands and saying "we can't deal with it".
Very well: specify.
But food packaging paper doesn't recycle well anyway.
You're phrasing it wrong. Recycling companies do a poor job of
recycling food packaging paper.
You do not know a better way. The correct way is
to use it as fuel.
"Correct" by what standard? And why am _I_ obligated to do the job of
a team of experts in pulp and paper processing? Offer a billion
dollar prize to anyone who comes up with a demonstrably better way and
a better way will likely be found right quick.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
As for the rest, it's all plastic of one kind or another, melt it down
and use to make other plastic artifacts.
Given, for a start, everything in that bin is covered with
oily Styrofoam beads, and trickles of soda.
In a properly managed society, IMO, there would be one waste bin all
of whose contents get sorted and reused or destroyed as appropriate.
Yes, it means the reyclers have to work harder. So why should _they_
get an easy ride on the backs of the rest of us?
Turn it around. Why should someone else handle
your trash responsibly if you don't?
Because I'm paying them to handle the trash, they're not paying me.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Who is so much
beneath you that they deserve to do that?
"Beneath"? We're paying trash experts to deal with trash. If they
consider doing the job they are paid for to be "beneath" the people
who are paying them that shows that they have an attitude problem.
Post by Robert Carnegie
And how
much are you willing to pay for that work to be done
on your behalf?
How much is it going to cost?
Oh, well... How much will it cost to have someone stay
in your house to receive your trash items and handle
them for individual recycling? Because that's what
needs to be done. Maybe have them cook and clean
and bathe you, too.
And as for respecting them?
In practice, your recyclables tend to be picked through
!by hand by prisoners, or workfarers, or the destitute,
or foreigners, or destitute foreigners.
If that's what recycling companies are doing then we should fine them
for that as well. Humans should not be doing this, this should be
autoamted. Yes, figuring out how to do it may take some work. So
does making an airplane fly itself and yet we've done that.
Post by Robert Carnegie
If you're offered bottled water by a hawker at an
Indian train station, rest assured that they extracted
that bottle from the heaps of exported American waste,
and peed in it.
So why are we providing the Third World with raw materials gratis
anyway?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
The residual waste stream includes human and
animal excrement, broken glassware (doesn't recycle),
rotten food, other horrors... would you, personally,
accept any product that was "recycled" out of that?
Excrement and rotten food should be composted, not wasted. And in
what universe does broken glass not melt as easily as unbroken glass?
And if the recyclers were doing their job properly then I would accept
any product that was recycled out of that.
You don't mind the little bits of glass then...
Why would there be "little bits of glass"? And why is there not now
"Little bits of glass" in single-stream recycling? Are you so naive
that you believe that no glass ever gets broken during the process of
dumping the bin in the truck?
Post by Robert Carnegie
And glass tableware is made with different formulas
from food retail bottles and jars.
Nothing in the rules for single-stream recycling where I live prohibit
glass tableware from going in the bin. They don't allow light bulbs
or window glass. So how does this present an issue?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Only the food storage
glass is suitable for recycling. Indeed, there is glass
ovenware; good luck "melting" that.
Are you trolling or are you really that ignorant? If the glass used
in ovenware can't be melted then how do you think the ovenware is
formed? You might want to do a bit of googling. Try "Pyrex" and
"hard glass" and "soft glass" and "borosilicate".

You might find this to be instructive:

Robert Carnegie
2021-08-01 12:52:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 01:50:41 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 02:42:20 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:41:31 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:31:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption. They have machines for the
purpose. I should get a new used vehicle, first. I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus. Maybe when it cools down, some.
We used to have some of those machines around here. The guy who owned
them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't making any money
off them. (Or not enough money, same thing either way.) Now I have
to take them all to the local waste disposal authority's buy back
site. Which has been shut down for at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep! Its permanently closed now! Apparently the space was taken by
an upgrade to their sorting capabilities. The nearest facility now is
a ten mile drive each way! <censored>
Wow. You don't have curbside recycling pickup right along with your
trash pickup? Every trash company that I've had since the mid-1990s
did both. My current one even has single-stream recycling, so that
I no longer need to sort into paper, aluminum, glass, ...
Oh, there's curbside pickup of recyclables. But there's almost no
Redemption Value buy back sites to get back that $0.05 or $0.10 a bottle
we have to pay for a drink container and the like. The whole point of
which was to give people an incentive to recycle.
And the local waste authority has been moving AWAY from single stream
for years. We have "Trash" (Landfill), paper, food-grade plastic &
metal (that "food-grade" is very strict) and compost. And woe the
address that doesn't separate correctly in to the different bins!
If our Congress was any good they would have the Bureau of Standards
come up with a standard recycling stream that includes oily pizza
boxes, Styrofoam, plastic bags, and soda straws and start fining
recycling companies that can't deal with it.
We burn that. What else would you do with it?
They need to figure out a way to deal with oily paper instead of just
throwing up their hands and saying "we can't deal with it".
Very well: specify.
But food packaging paper doesn't recycle well anyway.
You're phrasing it wrong. Recycling companies do a poor job of
recycling food packaging paper.
You do not know a better way. The correct way is
to use it as fuel.
"Correct" by what standard? And why am _I_ obligated to do the job of
a team of experts in pulp and paper processing? Offer a billion
dollar prize to anyone who comes up with a demonstrably better way and
a better way will likely be found right quick.
You pay up; it's your argument.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
As for the rest, it's all plastic of one kind or another, melt it down
and use to make other plastic artifacts.
Given, for a start, everything in that bin is covered with
oily Styrofoam beads, and trickles of soda.
In a properly managed society, IMO, there would be one waste bin all
of whose contents get sorted and reused or destroyed as appropriate.
Yes, it means the reyclers have to work harder. So why should _they_
get an easy ride on the backs of the rest of us?
Turn it around. Why should someone else handle
your trash responsibly if you don't?
Because I'm paying them to handle the trash, they're not paying me.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Who is so much
beneath you that they deserve to do that?
"Beneath"? We're paying trash experts to deal with trash. If they
consider doing the job they are paid for to be "beneath" the people
who are paying them that shows that they have an attitude problem.
Post by Robert Carnegie
And how
much are you willing to pay for that work to be done
on your behalf?
How much is it going to cost?
Oh, well... How much will it cost to have someone stay
in your house to receive your trash items and handle
them for individual recycling? Because that's what
needs to be done. Maybe have them cook and clean
and bathe you, too.
And as for respecting them?
In practice, your recyclables tend to be picked through
!by hand by prisoners, or workfarers, or the destitute,
or foreigners, or destitute foreigners.
If that's what recycling companies are doing then we should fine them
for that as well. Humans should not be doing this, this should be
autoamted. Yes, figuring out how to do it may take some work. So
does making an airplane fly itself and yet we've done that.
If you make machines do it, all you get is an army
of deeply aggrieved robots. Not good.

I'm saying, it's your waste, you sort it - if you genuinely
believe that making other people do it for you, as I described,
is wrong.
Post by J. Clarke
If you're offered bottled water by a hawker at an
Indian train station, rest assured that they extracted
that bottle from the heaps of exported American waste,
and peed in it.
So why are we providing the Third World with raw materials gratis
anyway?
Evidently, so that if you're visiting India and you
want a bottle of warm piss, you can get one.

Or at least: water that wasn't put in the bottle
from a proper chemically treated water supply
like "Dasani".
Post by J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
The residual waste stream includes human and
animal excrement, broken glassware (doesn't recycle),
rotten food, other horrors... would you, personally,
accept any product that was "recycled" out of that?
Excrement and rotten food should be composted, not wasted. And in
what universe does broken glass not melt as easily as unbroken glass?
And if the recyclers were doing their job properly then I would accept
any product that was recycled out of that.
You don't mind the little bits of glass then...
Why would there be "little bits of glass"? And why is there not now
"Little bits of glass" in single-stream recycling? Are you so naive
that you believe that no glass ever gets broken during the process of
dumping the bin in the truck?
One of my household bins accepts steel and aluminium cans,
certain plastics, and glass. I assume wherever it goes, it has
little pieces of glass in everything, and if none of it comes back
to me, that's fine.

However, I prefer to put my used glass, by colour, into
the collection bins at the "civic amenity site".
Post by J. Clarke
And glass tableware is made with different formulas
from food retail bottles and jars.
Nothing in the rules for single-stream recycling where I live prohibit
glass tableware from going in the bin. They don't allow light bulbs
or window glass. So how does this present an issue?
Explained. Please check your service's instructions.
<https://www.friendsofglass.com/gb/ecology-gb/is_more_better/>

I do wonder where "chocolate spread jars which can be
re-used as drinking glasses" fit in.
Post by J. Clarke
Only the food storage
glass is suitable for recycling. Indeed, there is glass
ovenware; good luck "melting" that.
Are you trolling or are you really that ignorant? If the glass used
in ovenware can't be melted then how do you think the ovenware is
formed? You might want to do a bit of googling. Try "Pyrex" and
"hard glass" and "soft glass" and "borosilicate".
http://youtu.be/ImUvNxlxGGc
My link above addresses the same question.
I think it's still a no.
J. Clarke
2021-08-01 13:54:47 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 05:52:57 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 01:50:41 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 02:42:20 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:41:31 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:31:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption. They have machines for the
purpose. I should get a new used vehicle, first. I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus. Maybe when it cools down, some.
We used to have some of those machines around here. The guy who owned
them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't making any money
off them. (Or not enough money, same thing either way.) Now I have
to take them all to the local waste disposal authority's buy back
site. Which has been shut down for at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep! Its permanently closed now! Apparently the space was taken by
an upgrade to their sorting capabilities. The nearest facility now is
a ten mile drive each way! <censored>
Wow. You don't have curbside recycling pickup right along with your
trash pickup? Every trash company that I've had since the mid-1990s
did both. My current one even has single-stream recycling, so that
I no longer need to sort into paper, aluminum, glass, ...
Oh, there's curbside pickup of recyclables. But there's almost no
Redemption Value buy back sites to get back that $0.05 or $0.10 a bottle
we have to pay for a drink container and the like. The whole point of
which was to give people an incentive to recycle.
And the local waste authority has been moving AWAY from single stream
for years. We have "Trash" (Landfill), paper, food-grade plastic &
metal (that "food-grade" is very strict) and compost. And woe the
address that doesn't separate correctly in to the different bins!
If our Congress was any good they would have the Bureau of Standards
come up with a standard recycling stream that includes oily pizza
boxes, Styrofoam, plastic bags, and soda straws and start fining
recycling companies that can't deal with it.
We burn that. What else would you do with it?
They need to figure out a way to deal with oily paper instead of just
throwing up their hands and saying "we can't deal with it".
Very well: specify.
But food packaging paper doesn't recycle well anyway.
You're phrasing it wrong. Recycling companies do a poor job of
recycling food packaging paper.
You do not know a better way. The correct way is
to use it as fuel.
"Correct" by what standard? And why am _I_ obligated to do the job of
a team of experts in pulp and paper processing? Offer a billion
dollar prize to anyone who comes up with a demonstrably better way and
a better way will likely be found right quick.
You pay up; it's your argument.
I would prefer that the Congress offer the prize. The government can
afford it.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
As for the rest, it's all plastic of one kind or another, melt it down
and use to make other plastic artifacts.
Given, for a start, everything in that bin is covered with
oily Styrofoam beads, and trickles of soda.
In a properly managed society, IMO, there would be one waste bin all
of whose contents get sorted and reused or destroyed as appropriate.
Yes, it means the reyclers have to work harder. So why should _they_
get an easy ride on the backs of the rest of us?
Turn it around. Why should someone else handle
your trash responsibly if you don't?
Because I'm paying them to handle the trash, they're not paying me.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Who is so much
beneath you that they deserve to do that?
"Beneath"? We're paying trash experts to deal with trash. If they
consider doing the job they are paid for to be "beneath" the people
who are paying them that shows that they have an attitude problem.
Post by Robert Carnegie
And how
much are you willing to pay for that work to be done
on your behalf?
How much is it going to cost?
Oh, well... How much will it cost to have someone stay
in your house to receive your trash items and handle
them for individual recycling? Because that's what
needs to be done. Maybe have them cook and clean
and bathe you, too.
And as for respecting them?
In practice, your recyclables tend to be picked through
!by hand by prisoners, or workfarers, or the destitute,
or foreigners, or destitute foreigners.
If that's what recycling companies are doing then we should fine them
for that as well. Humans should not be doing this, this should be
autoamted. Yes, figuring out how to do it may take some work. So
does making an airplane fly itself and yet we've done that.
If you make machines do it, all you get is an army
of deeply aggrieved robots. Not good.
I'm saying, it's your waste, you sort it - if you genuinely
believe that making other people do it for you, as I described,
is wrong.
Other people already sort it. They just do a half-assed job and so
won't take most stuff that really should be recycles.

There are only two bins, "trash" and "recycling".
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
If you're offered bottled water by a hawker at an
Indian train station, rest assured that they extracted
that bottle from the heaps of exported American waste,
and peed in it.
So why are we providing the Third World with raw materials gratis
anyway?
Evidently, so that if you're visiting India and you
want a bottle of warm piss, you can get one.
Or at least: water that wasn't put in the bottle
from a proper chemically treated water supply
like "Dasani".
You mean Hamburg, Pennsylvania tap water?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
The residual waste stream includes human and
animal excrement, broken glassware (doesn't recycle),
rotten food, other horrors... would you, personally,
accept any product that was "recycled" out of that?
Excrement and rotten food should be composted, not wasted. And in
what universe does broken glass not melt as easily as unbroken glass?
And if the recyclers were doing their job properly then I would accept
any product that was recycled out of that.
You don't mind the little bits of glass then...
Why would there be "little bits of glass"? And why is there not now
"Little bits of glass" in single-stream recycling? Are you so naive
that you believe that no glass ever gets broken during the process of
dumping the bin in the truck?
One of my household bins accepts steel and aluminium cans,
certain plastics, and glass. I assume wherever it goes, it has
little pieces of glass in everything, and if none of it comes back
to me, that's fine.
However, I prefer to put my used glass, by colour, into
the collection bins at the "civic amenity site".
WTF is a "civic amenity site"?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
And glass tableware is made with different formulas
from food retail bottles and jars.
Nothing in the rules for single-stream recycling where I live prohibit
glass tableware from going in the bin. They don't allow light bulbs
or window glass. So how does this present an issue?
Explained. Please check your service's instructions.
<https://www.friendsofglass.com/gb/ecology-gb/is_more_better/>
I have told you what the instructions say. That "ecology-gb" has some
opinin or other is a matter of crashing indifference to a service
provided by a town government in the United States.
Post by Robert Carnegie
I do wonder where "chocolate spread jars which can be
re-used as drinking glasses" fit in.
Post by J. Clarke
Only the food storage
glass is suitable for recycling. Indeed, there is glass
ovenware; good luck "melting" that.
Are you trolling or are you really that ignorant? If the glass used
in ovenware can't be melted then how do you think the ovenware is
formed? You might want to do a bit of googling. Try "Pyrex" and
"hard glass" and "soft glass" and "borosilicate".
http://youtu.be/ImUvNxlxGGc
My link above addresses the same question.
I think it's still a no.
A "no"? You are asserting despite the major manufacturer of glass
ovenware SHOWING IN A VIDEO the melting of the glass used that glass
ovenware cannot be melted?
pete...@gmail.com
2021-08-01 15:22:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 05:52:57 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 01:50:41 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 02:42:20 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:41:31 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:31:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption. They have machines for the
purpose. I should get a new used vehicle, first. I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus. Maybe when it cools down, some.
We used to have some of those machines around here. The guy who owned
them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't making any money
off them. (Or not enough money, same thing either way.) Now I have
to take them all to the local waste disposal authority's buy back
site. Which has been shut down for at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep! Its permanently closed now! Apparently the space was taken by
an upgrade to their sorting capabilities. The nearest facility now is
a ten mile drive each way! <censored>
Wow. You don't have curbside recycling pickup right along with your
trash pickup? Every trash company that I've had since the mid-1990s
did both. My current one even has single-stream recycling, so that
I no longer need to sort into paper, aluminum, glass, ...
Oh, there's curbside pickup of recyclables. But there's almost no
Redemption Value buy back sites to get back that $0.05 or $0.10 a bottle
we have to pay for a drink container and the like. The whole point of
which was to give people an incentive to recycle.
And the local waste authority has been moving AWAY from single stream
for years. We have "Trash" (Landfill), paper, food-grade plastic &
metal (that "food-grade" is very strict) and compost. And woe the
address that doesn't separate correctly in to the different bins!
If our Congress was any good they would have the Bureau of Standards
come up with a standard recycling stream that includes oily pizza
boxes, Styrofoam, plastic bags, and soda straws and start fining
recycling companies that can't deal with it.
We burn that. What else would you do with it?
They need to figure out a way to deal with oily paper instead of just
throwing up their hands and saying "we can't deal with it".
Very well: specify.
But food packaging paper doesn't recycle well anyway.
You're phrasing it wrong. Recycling companies do a poor job of
recycling food packaging paper.
You do not know a better way. The correct way is
to use it as fuel.
"Correct" by what standard? And why am _I_ obligated to do the job of
a team of experts in pulp and paper processing? Offer a billion
dollar prize to anyone who comes up with a demonstrably better way and
a better way will likely be found right quick.
You pay up; it's your argument.
I would prefer that the Congress offer the prize. The government can
afford it.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
As for the rest, it's all plastic of one kind or another, melt it down
and use to make other plastic artifacts.
Given, for a start, everything in that bin is covered with
oily Styrofoam beads, and trickles of soda.
In a properly managed society, IMO, there would be one waste bin all
of whose contents get sorted and reused or destroyed as appropriate.
Yes, it means the reyclers have to work harder. So why should _they_
get an easy ride on the backs of the rest of us?
Turn it around. Why should someone else handle
your trash responsibly if you don't?
Because I'm paying them to handle the trash, they're not paying me.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Who is so much
beneath you that they deserve to do that?
"Beneath"? We're paying trash experts to deal with trash. If they
consider doing the job they are paid for to be "beneath" the people
who are paying them that shows that they have an attitude problem.
Post by Robert Carnegie
And how
much are you willing to pay for that work to be done
on your behalf?
How much is it going to cost?
Oh, well... How much will it cost to have someone stay
in your house to receive your trash items and handle
them for individual recycling? Because that's what
needs to be done. Maybe have them cook and clean
and bathe you, too.
And as for respecting them?
In practice, your recyclables tend to be picked through
!by hand by prisoners, or workfarers, or the destitute,
or foreigners, or destitute foreigners.
If that's what recycling companies are doing then we should fine them
for that as well. Humans should not be doing this, this should be
autoamted. Yes, figuring out how to do it may take some work. So
does making an airplane fly itself and yet we've done that.
If you make machines do it, all you get is an army
of deeply aggrieved robots. Not good.
I'm saying, it's your waste, you sort it - if you genuinely
believe that making other people do it for you, as I described,
is wrong.
Other people already sort it. They just do a half-assed job and so
won't take most stuff that really should be recycles.
There are only two bins, "trash" and "recycling".
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
If you're offered bottled water by a hawker at an
Indian train station, rest assured that they extracted
that bottle from the heaps of exported American waste,
and peed in it.
So why are we providing the Third World with raw materials gratis
anyway?
Evidently, so that if you're visiting India and you
want a bottle of warm piss, you can get one.
Or at least: water that wasn't put in the bottle
from a proper chemically treated water supply
like "Dasani".
You mean Hamburg, Pennsylvania tap water?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
The residual waste stream includes human and
animal excrement, broken glassware (doesn't recycle),
rotten food, other horrors... would you, personally,
accept any product that was "recycled" out of that?
Excrement and rotten food should be composted, not wasted. And in
what universe does broken glass not melt as easily as unbroken glass?
And if the recyclers were doing their job properly then I would accept
any product that was recycled out of that.
You don't mind the little bits of glass then...
Why would there be "little bits of glass"? And why is there not now
"Little bits of glass" in single-stream recycling? Are you so naive
that you believe that no glass ever gets broken during the process of
dumping the bin in the truck?
One of my household bins accepts steel and aluminium cans,
certain plastics, and glass. I assume wherever it goes, it has
little pieces of glass in everything, and if none of it comes back
to me, that's fine.
However, I prefer to put my used glass, by colour, into
the collection bins at the "civic amenity site".
WTF is a "civic amenity site"?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
And glass tableware is made with different formulas
from food retail bottles and jars.
Nothing in the rules for single-stream recycling where I live prohibit
glass tableware from going in the bin. They don't allow light bulbs
or window glass. So how does this present an issue?
Explained. Please check your service's instructions.
<https://www.friendsofglass.com/gb/ecology-gb/is_more_better/>
I have told you what the instructions say. That "ecology-gb" has some
opinin or other is a matter of crashing indifference to a service
provided by a town government in the United States.
Post by Robert Carnegie
I do wonder where "chocolate spread jars which can be
re-used as drinking glasses" fit in.
Post by J. Clarke
Only the food storage
glass is suitable for recycling. Indeed, there is glass
ovenware; good luck "melting" that.
Are you trolling or are you really that ignorant? If the glass used
in ovenware can't be melted then how do you think the ovenware is
formed? You might want to do a bit of googling. Try "Pyrex" and
"hard glass" and "soft glass" and "borosilicate".
http://youtu.be/ImUvNxlxGGc
My link above addresses the same question.
I think it's still a no.
A "no"? You are asserting despite the major manufacturer of glass
ovenware SHOWING IN A VIDEO the melting of the glass used that glass
ovenware cannot be melted?
You might want to look into South Korea, where households are required to
strictly separate various classes of recyclables, and fined if they don't.

They've pushed to cost of separation onto households, and away from the
trash collection service.

https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/south-korea/housing/setting-up-home/waste-recycling
https://www..wikipedia.org/wiki/Recycling_in_South_Korea

Pt
J. Clarke
2021-08-01 15:26:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 05:52:57 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 01:50:41 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 02:42:20 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:41:31 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:31:46 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption. They have machines for the
purpose. I should get a new used vehicle, first. I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus. Maybe when it cools down, some.
We used to have some of those machines around here. The guy who owned
them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't making any money
off them. (Or not enough money, same thing either way.) Now I have
to take them all to the local waste disposal authority's buy back
site. Which has been shut down for at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep! Its permanently closed now! Apparently the space was taken by
an upgrade to their sorting capabilities. The nearest facility now is
a ten mile drive each way! <censored>
Wow. You don't have curbside recycling pickup right along with your
trash pickup? Every trash company that I've had since the mid-1990s
did both. My current one even has single-stream recycling, so that
I no longer need to sort into paper, aluminum, glass, ...
Oh, there's curbside pickup of recyclables. But there's almost no
Redemption Value buy back sites to get back that $0.05 or $0.10 a bottle
we have to pay for a drink container and the like. The whole point of
which was to give people an incentive to recycle.
And the local waste authority has been moving AWAY from single stream
for years. We have "Trash" (Landfill), paper, food-grade plastic &
metal (that "food-grade" is very strict) and compost. And woe the
address that doesn't separate correctly in to the different bins!
If our Congress was any good they would have the Bureau of Standards
come up with a standard recycling stream that includes oily pizza
boxes, Styrofoam, plastic bags, and soda straws and start fining
recycling companies that can't deal with it.
We burn that. What else would you do with it?
They need to figure out a way to deal with oily paper instead of just
throwing up their hands and saying "we can't deal with it".
Very well: specify.
But food packaging paper doesn't recycle well anyway.
You're phrasing it wrong. Recycling companies do a poor job of
recycling food packaging paper.
You do not know a better way. The correct way is
to use it as fuel.
"Correct" by what standard? And why am _I_ obligated to do the job of
a team of experts in pulp and paper processing? Offer a billion
dollar prize to anyone who comes up with a demonstrably better way and
a better way will likely be found right quick.
You pay up; it's your argument.
I would prefer that the Congress offer the prize. The government can
afford it.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
As for the rest, it's all plastic of one kind or another, melt it down
and use to make other plastic artifacts.
Given, for a start, everything in that bin is covered with
oily Styrofoam beads, and trickles of soda.
In a properly managed society, IMO, there would be one waste bin all
of whose contents get sorted and reused or destroyed as appropriate.
Yes, it means the reyclers have to work harder. So why should _they_
get an easy ride on the backs of the rest of us?
Turn it around. Why should someone else handle
your trash responsibly if you don't?
Because I'm paying them to handle the trash, they're not paying me.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Who is so much
beneath you that they deserve to do that?
"Beneath"? We're paying trash experts to deal with trash. If they
consider doing the job they are paid for to be "beneath" the people
who are paying them that shows that they have an attitude problem.
Post by Robert Carnegie
And how
much are you willing to pay for that work to be done
on your behalf?
How much is it going to cost?
Oh, well... How much will it cost to have someone stay
in your house to receive your trash items and handle
them for individual recycling? Because that's what
needs to be done. Maybe have them cook and clean
and bathe you, too.
And as for respecting them?
In practice, your recyclables tend to be picked through
!by hand by prisoners, or workfarers, or the destitute,
or foreigners, or destitute foreigners.
If that's what recycling companies are doing then we should fine them
for that as well. Humans should not be doing this, this should be
autoamted. Yes, figuring out how to do it may take some work. So
does making an airplane fly itself and yet we've done that.
If you make machines do it, all you get is an army
of deeply aggrieved robots. Not good.
I'm saying, it's your waste, you sort it - if you genuinely
believe that making other people do it for you, as I described,
is wrong.
Other people already sort it. They just do a half-assed job and so
won't take most stuff that really should be recycles.
There are only two bins, "trash" and "recycling".
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
If you're offered bottled water by a hawker at an
Indian train station, rest assured that they extracted
that bottle from the heaps of exported American waste,
and peed in it.
So why are we providing the Third World with raw materials gratis
anyway?
Evidently, so that if you're visiting India and you
want a bottle of warm piss, you can get one.
Or at least: water that wasn't put in the bottle
from a proper chemically treated water supply
like "Dasani".
You mean Hamburg, Pennsylvania tap water?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
The residual waste stream includes human and
animal excrement, broken glassware (doesn't recycle),
rotten food, other horrors... would you, personally,
accept any product that was "recycled" out of that?
Excrement and rotten food should be composted, not wasted. And in
what universe does broken glass not melt as easily as unbroken glass?
And if the recyclers were doing their job properly then I would accept
any product that was recycled out of that.
You don't mind the little bits of glass then...
Why would there be "little bits of glass"? And why is there not now
"Little bits of glass" in single-stream recycling? Are you so naive
that you believe that no glass ever gets broken during the process of
dumping the bin in the truck?
One of my household bins accepts steel and aluminium cans,
certain plastics, and glass. I assume wherever it goes, it has
little pieces of glass in everything, and if none of it comes back
to me, that's fine.
However, I prefer to put my used glass, by colour, into
the collection bins at the "civic amenity site".
WTF is a "civic amenity site"?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
And glass tableware is made with different formulas
from food retail bottles and jars.
Nothing in the rules for single-stream recycling where I live prohibit
glass tableware from going in the bin. They don't allow light bulbs
or window glass. So how does this present an issue?
Explained. Please check your service's instructions.
<https://www.friendsofglass.com/gb/ecology-gb/is_more_better/>
I have told you what the instructions say. That "ecology-gb" has some
opinin or other is a matter of crashing indifference to a service
provided by a town government in the United States.
Post by Robert Carnegie
I do wonder where "chocolate spread jars which can be
re-used as drinking glasses" fit in.
Post by J. Clarke
Only the food storage
glass is suitable for recycling. Indeed, there is glass
ovenware; good luck "melting" that.
Are you trolling or are you really that ignorant? If the glass used
in ovenware can't be melted then how do you think the ovenware is
formed? You might want to do a bit of googling. Try "Pyrex" and
"hard glass" and "soft glass" and "borosilicate".
http://youtu.be/ImUvNxlxGGc
My link above addresses the same question.
I think it's still a no.
A "no"? You are asserting despite the major manufacturer of glass
ovenware SHOWING IN A VIDEO the melting of the glass used that glass
ovenware cannot be melted?
You might want to look into South Korea, where households are required to
strictly separate various classes of recyclables, and fined if they don't.
They've pushed to cost of separation onto households, and away from the
trash collection service.
https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/south-korea/housing/setting-up-home/waste-recycling
https://www..wikipedia.org/wiki/Recycling_in_South_Korea
If you want to live in a country that has trash police please move
there.

This is how we become a police state, by creating more and more and
more petty bureaucrats whose duty it is to micromanage our lives.

If the almighty State wants recycling, it's up to the almighty State
to do the sorting.
Lynn McGuire
2021-08-03 02:45:18 UTC
Permalink
On 8/1/2021 10:26 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
...
Post by J. Clarke
If you want to live in a country that has trash police please move
there.
This is how we become a police state, by creating more and more and
more petty bureaucrats whose duty it is to micromanage our lives.
If the almighty State wants recycling, it's up to the almighty State
to do the sorting.
The Green Police by Cheap Trick, an amazing prescient commercial by Audi
for CLEAN DIESELs.


Lynn
J. Clarke
2021-08-03 03:22:02 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 21:45:18 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
...
Post by J. Clarke
If you want to live in a country that has trash police please move
there.
This is how we become a police state, by creating more and more and
more petty bureaucrats whose duty it is to micromanage our lives.
If the almighty State wants recycling, it's up to the almighty State
to do the sorting.
The Green Police by Cheap Trick, an amazing prescient commercial by Audi
for CLEAN DIESELs.
http://youtu.be/PVPyHrPZbVM
Especially considering that they got busted when it turne out that
their "clean diesels" weren't clean, they were just rigged to fake out
the test.
Robert Carnegie
2021-08-03 11:30:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 21:45:18 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
...
Post by J. Clarke
If you want to live in a country that has trash police please move
there.
This is how we become a police state, by creating more and more and
more petty bureaucrats whose duty it is to micromanage our lives.
If the almighty State wants recycling, it's up to the almighty State
to do the sorting.
The Green Police by Cheap Trick, an amazing prescient commercial by Audi
for CLEAN DIESELs.
http://youtu.be/PVPyHrPZbVM
Especially considering that they got busted when it turne out that
their "clean diesels" weren't clean, they were just rigged to fake out
the test.
I think I saw it argued that the test was rigged first
to exclude European diesel cars from sale in the U.S.
without justification. But then it later turned out -
at least as we're currently told - that diesel fumes
are full of deadly particles. But could that be petrol
propaganda as well?
J. Clarke
2021-08-03 19:48:08 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 04:30:20 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 21:45:18 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
...
Post by J. Clarke
If you want to live in a country that has trash police please move
there.
This is how we become a police state, by creating more and more and
more petty bureaucrats whose duty it is to micromanage our lives.
If the almighty State wants recycling, it's up to the almighty State
to do the sorting.
The Green Police by Cheap Trick, an amazing prescient commercial by Audi
for CLEAN DIESELs.
http://youtu.be/PVPyHrPZbVM
Especially considering that they got busted when it turne out that
their "clean diesels" weren't clean, they were just rigged to fake out
the test.
I think I saw it argued that the test was rigged first
to exclude European diesel cars from sale in the U.S.
without justification.
Why would the EU rig a test to exclude European diesel cars from sale
in the US, and how could a test in the EU even have that effect? Or
are you unaware that most of the rigged vehicles were sold in the EU
and that the EU went after them with the same fervor as the US?
Post by Robert Carnegie
But then it later turned out -
at least as we're currently told - that diesel fumes
are full of deadly particles. But could that be petrol
propaganda as well?
The issue was oxides of nitrogen.
Robert Carnegie
2021-08-03 23:37:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 04:30:20 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 21:45:18 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
...
Post by J. Clarke
If you want to live in a country that has trash police please move
there.
This is how we become a police state, by creating more and more and
more petty bureaucrats whose duty it is to micromanage our lives.
If the almighty State wants recycling, it's up to the almighty State
to do the sorting.
The Green Police by Cheap Trick, an amazing prescient commercial by Audi
for CLEAN DIESELs.
http://youtu.be/PVPyHrPZbVM
Especially considering that they got busted when it turne out that
their "clean diesels" weren't clean, they were just rigged to fake out
the test.
I think I saw it argued that the test was rigged first
to exclude European diesel cars from sale in the U.S.
without justification.
Why would the EU rig a test to exclude European diesel cars from sale
in the US, and how could a test in the EU even have that effect? Or
are you unaware that most of the rigged vehicles were sold in the EU
and that the EU went after them with the same fervor as the US?
Post by Robert Carnegie
But then it later turned out -
at least as we're currently told - that diesel fumes
are full of deadly particles. But could that be petrol
propaganda as well?
The issue was oxides of nitrogen.
Well, referring to
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal>
and what I think I remember being told, the game may
have started with the U.S. slashing permitted NO2 emissions.
I said that this was alleged to be simply to keep European diesel
cars from being sold to U.S. petrol-model customers. VW may
have decided that if the U.S. wasn't playing fair then why should
they. Later, the cheating cars were sold to get around new rules
in Europe, too. Note that the "cheating" consists of meeting
environmental rules in the test laboratory and providing
satisfactory driving on the road. Everybody should be happy :-)

Under "Health consequences" the NO2 emissions are listed
as "Non-lethal", though that isn't the whole story. Then there's
particulates and ozone, but were those mentioned at the start,
or only afterwards?
J. Clarke
2021-08-04 00:20:26 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 16:37:06 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 04:30:20 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 21:45:18 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
...
Post by J. Clarke
If you want to live in a country that has trash police please move
there.
This is how we become a police state, by creating more and more and
more petty bureaucrats whose duty it is to micromanage our lives.
If the almighty State wants recycling, it's up to the almighty State
to do the sorting.
The Green Police by Cheap Trick, an amazing prescient commercial by Audi
for CLEAN DIESELs.
http://youtu.be/PVPyHrPZbVM
Especially considering that they got busted when it turne out that
their "clean diesels" weren't clean, they were just rigged to fake out
the test.
I think I saw it argued that the test was rigged first
to exclude European diesel cars from sale in the U.S.
without justification.
Why would the EU rig a test to exclude European diesel cars from sale
in the US, and how could a test in the EU even have that effect? Or
are you unaware that most of the rigged vehicles were sold in the EU
and that the EU went after them with the same fervor as the US?
Post by Robert Carnegie
But then it later turned out -
at least as we're currently told - that diesel fumes
are full of deadly particles. But could that be petrol
propaganda as well?
The issue was oxides of nitrogen.
Well, referring to
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal>
and what I think I remember being told, the game may
have started with the U.S. slashing permitted NO2 emissions.
I said that this was alleged to be simply to keep European diesel
cars from being sold to U.S. petrol-model customers. VW may
have decided that if the U.S. wasn't playing fair then why should
they. Later, the cheating cars were sold to get around new rules
in Europe, too. Note that the "cheating" consists of meeting
environmental rules in the test laboratory and providing
satisfactory driving on the road. Everybody should be happy :-)
The first US regulation of NOx from motor vehicles occurred in
California in 1971. At the time diesel cars were about 2.5% of the
European market and an oddity driven by a handful of eccentrics in the
US. So it's rather difficult to plausibly argue that there was any
deliberate effort to limit their nonexistent sales. Federal
regulation of NOx came with the Clean Air Act which required a 90%
reduction in NOx emissions by 1975. By 1975 diesel cars were about 4%
of the EU market and still an eccentric's oddity in the US. So again
the notion that this was intended to restrict the nonexistent sales of
diesel cars just doesn't pass the giggle test.

The fact is that Volkswagen cheated and Volkswagen got caught and they
forever destroyed what was left of their "nice car company" image. And
their lying about their motivation didn't help.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Under "Health consequences" the NO2 emissions are listed
as "Non-lethal", though that isn't the whole story. Then there's
particulates and ozone, but were those mentioned at the start,
or only afterwards?
Oxides of nitrogen are part of the chemistry that results in
photochemical smog.
Lynn McGuire
2021-08-04 01:27:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 04:30:20 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 21:45:18 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
...
Post by J. Clarke
If you want to live in a country that has trash police please move
there.
This is how we become a police state, by creating more and more and
more petty bureaucrats whose duty it is to micromanage our lives.
If the almighty State wants recycling, it's up to the almighty State
to do the sorting.
The Green Police by Cheap Trick, an amazing prescient commercial by Audi
for CLEAN DIESELs.
http://youtu.be/PVPyHrPZbVM
Especially considering that they got busted when it turne out that
their "clean diesels" weren't clean, they were just rigged to fake out
the test.
I think I saw it argued that the test was rigged first
to exclude European diesel cars from sale in the U.S.
without justification.
Why would the EU rig a test to exclude European diesel cars from sale
in the US, and how could a test in the EU even have that effect? Or
are you unaware that most of the rigged vehicles were sold in the EU
and that the EU went after them with the same fervor as the US?
Post by Robert Carnegie
But then it later turned out -
at least as we're currently told - that diesel fumes
are full of deadly particles. But could that be petrol
propaganda as well?
The issue was oxides of nitrogen.
Well, referring to
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal>
and what I think I remember being told, the game may
have started with the U.S. slashing permitted NO2 emissions.
I said that this was alleged to be simply to keep European diesel
cars from being sold to U.S. petrol-model customers. VW may
have decided that if the U.S. wasn't playing fair then why should
they. Later, the cheating cars were sold to get around new rules
in Europe, too. Note that the "cheating" consists of meeting
environmental rules in the test laboratory and providing
satisfactory driving on the road. Everybody should be happy :-)
Under "Health consequences" the NO2 emissions are listed
as "Non-lethal", though that isn't the whole story. Then there's
particulates and ozone, but were those mentioned at the start,
or only afterwards?
The problem was that Bosch designed a urea generating reactor for their
diesel fuel system that VW, Audi, and quite a few others used. No DEF
(diesel exhaust fluid, water with 30% urea) needed. But the reactor was
undersized and could not meet the required emissions specifications
running continuously. So Bosch solved the problem with software by
shutting down the reactor unless a tailpipe test system was detected.

There is a big long engineering paper that I read a decade ago that went
into this in detail. The Bosch reactor cost about $250 for each car.
The upsized reactor was $400 or $500 each but VW refused to eat the cost
and held Bosch to their cost estimate.

Chemical reactors are funny beasties. They rarely perform as modeled.

Lynn
Robert Carnegie
2021-08-01 19:16:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 05:52:57 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 01:50:41 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 02:42:20 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
In a properly managed society, IMO, there would be one waste bin all
of whose contents get sorted and reused or destroyed as appropriate.
Yes, it means the reyclers have to work harder. So why should _they_
get an easy ride on the backs of the rest of us?
Turn it around. Why should someone else handle
your trash responsibly if you don't?
Because I'm paying them to handle the trash, they're not paying me.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Who is so much
beneath you that they deserve to do that?
"Beneath"? We're paying trash experts to deal with trash. If they
consider doing the job they are paid for to be "beneath" the people
who are paying them that shows that they have an attitude problem.
Post by Robert Carnegie
And how
much are you willing to pay for that work to be done
on your behalf?
How much is it going to cost?
Oh, well... How much will it cost to have someone stay
in your house to receive your trash items and handle
them for individual recycling? Because that's what
needs to be done. Maybe have them cook and clean
and bathe you, too.
And as for respecting them?
In practice, your recyclables tend to be picked through
!by hand by prisoners, or workfarers, or the destitute,
or foreigners, or destitute foreigners.
If that's what recycling companies are doing then we should fine them
for that as well. Humans should not be doing this, this should be
autoamted. Yes, figuring out how to do it may take some work. So
does making an airplane fly itself and yet we've done that.
If you make machines do it, all you get is an army
of deeply aggrieved robots. Not good.
I'm saying, it's your waste, you sort it - if you genuinely
believe that making other people do it for you, as I described,
is wrong.
Other people already sort it. They just do a half-assed job and so
won't take most stuff that really should be recycles.
Well, if someone somewhere wants that stuff,
you can mail it to them.

If no one anywhere wants it, then it can't really
be recycled.
Well - about 18 years ago, they were telling us
that a British freeway was built on old pulp romance
novels. And others, but apparently they wanted
us to know about the romance. It's human interest.
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/3330245.stm>

There's also talk about making roads from little bits
of plastic that are no good for anything else... this seems
to me to be leaving in the Environment a quantity of
little bits of plastic that are also no good for the Environment,
but would they be doing that if it was stupid?

And unsuitable glass, actually.

Now, does this count as recycling, or as landfill?
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
The residual waste stream includes human and
animal excrement, broken glassware (doesn't recycle),
rotten food, other horrors... would you, personally,
accept any product that was "recycled" out of that?
Excrement and rotten food should be composted, not wasted. And in
what universe does broken glass not melt as easily as unbroken glass?
And if the recyclers were doing their job properly then I would accept
any product that was recycled out of that.
You don't mind the little bits of glass then...
Why would there be "little bits of glass"? And why is there not now
"Little bits of glass" in single-stream recycling? Are you so naive
that you believe that no glass ever gets broken during the process of
dumping the bin in the truck?
One of my household bins accepts steel and aluminium cans,
certain plastics, and glass. I assume wherever it goes, it has
little pieces of glass in everything, and if none of it comes back
to me, that's fine.
However, I prefer to put my used glass, by colour, into
the collection bins at the "civic amenity site".
WTF is a "civic amenity site"?
According to Wikipedia, it's our name for a "waste
collection courtyard", which is charming but glosses
over who is collecting waste from whom. I think some
things do get picked up, which worries me; at least one
TV I've owned was repaired incompletely before it came
to me, and so I'd prefer that household appliances that
I sever my relationship with on those terms are put
beyond use, as one says. I mean, they are anyway.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
And glass tableware is made with different formulas
from food retail bottles and jars.
Nothing in the rules for single-stream recycling where I live prohibit
glass tableware from going in the bin. They don't allow light bulbs
or window glass. So how does this present an issue?
Explained. Please check your service's instructions.
<https://www.friendsofglass.com/gb/ecology-gb/is_more_better/>
I have told you what the instructions say. That "ecology-gb" has some
opinin or other is a matter of crashing indifference to a service
provided by a town government in the United States.
But the same stuff, and the same issues.

You told me and I don't believe you. But see this
from Glasgow City Council.
<https://www.glasgow.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=26968>
Select "purple bin" - yes really... it's a no for:
Light bulbs
Drinking glasses
Plates
Cups
Pyrex glass

This isn't actually my bins: as I said, one of mine
takes glass and other stuff. This purple bin is just glass.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Are you trolling or are you really that ignorant? If the glass used
in ovenware can't be melted then how do you think the ovenware is
formed? You might want to do a bit of googling. Try "Pyrex" and
"hard glass" and "soft glass" and "borosilicate".
http://youtu.be/ImUvNxlxGGc
My link above addresses the same question.
I think it's still a no.
A "no"? You are asserting despite the major manufacturer of glass
ovenware SHOWING IN A VIDEO the melting of the glass used that glass
ovenware cannot be melted?
How much use would it be if it could?

I expect it won't survive the expansion of the Sun
to red giant end stage without getting squashy:
the relevant point in the meantime is that the
glassmakers don't want it back.
J. Clarke
2021-08-01 19:41:25 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 12:16:22 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 05:52:57 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 01:50:41 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 02:42:20 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
In a properly managed society, IMO, there would be one waste bin all
of whose contents get sorted and reused or destroyed as appropriate.
Yes, it means the reyclers have to work harder. So why should _they_
get an easy ride on the backs of the rest of us?
Turn it around. Why should someone else handle
your trash responsibly if you don't?
Because I'm paying them to handle the trash, they're not paying me.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Who is so much
beneath you that they deserve to do that?
"Beneath"? We're paying trash experts to deal with trash. If they
consider doing the job they are paid for to be "beneath" the people
who are paying them that shows that they have an attitude problem.
Post by Robert Carnegie
And how
much are you willing to pay for that work to be done
on your behalf?
How much is it going to cost?
Oh, well... How much will it cost to have someone stay
in your house to receive your trash items and handle
them for individual recycling? Because that's what
needs to be done. Maybe have them cook and clean
and bathe you, too.
And as for respecting them?
In practice, your recyclables tend to be picked through
!by hand by prisoners, or workfarers, or the destitute,
or foreigners, or destitute foreigners.
If that's what recycling companies are doing then we should fine them
for that as well. Humans should not be doing this, this should be
autoamted. Yes, figuring out how to do it may take some work. So
does making an airplane fly itself and yet we've done that.
If you make machines do it, all you get is an army
of deeply aggrieved robots. Not good.
I'm saying, it's your waste, you sort it - if you genuinely
believe that making other people do it for you, as I described,
is wrong.
Other people already sort it. They just do a half-assed job and so
won't take most stuff that really should be recycles.
Well, if someone somewhere wants that stuff,
you can mail it to them.
I am obligated by law to put it in the recycling bin. It is up to the
people on the other end to deal with it.
Post by Robert Carnegie
If no one anywhere wants it, then it can't really
be recycled.
If nobody wants it then the government should not be compelling us to
recycle it under penalty of law,.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Well - about 18 years ago, they were telling us
that a British freeway was built on old pulp romance
novels. And others, but apparently they wanted
us to know about the romance. It's human interest.
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/3330245.stm>
There's also talk about making roads from little bits
of plastic that are no good for anything else... this seems
to me to be leaving in the Environment a quantity of
little bits of plastic that are also no good for the Environment,
but would they be doing that if it was stupid?
When has the government ever let something being stupid stand in its
way?
Post by Robert Carnegie
And unsuitable glass, actually.
What makes glass "unsuitable"?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Now, does this count as recycling, or as landfill?
Repurposing.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
The residual waste stream includes human and
animal excrement, broken glassware (doesn't recycle),
rotten food, other horrors... would you, personally,
accept any product that was "recycled" out of that?
Excrement and rotten food should be composted, not wasted. And in
what universe does broken glass not melt as easily as unbroken glass?
And if the recyclers were doing their job properly then I would accept
any product that was recycled out of that.
You don't mind the little bits of glass then...
Why would there be "little bits of glass"? And why is there not now
"Little bits of glass" in single-stream recycling? Are you so naive
that you believe that no glass ever gets broken during the process of
dumping the bin in the truck?
One of my household bins accepts steel and aluminium cans,
certain plastics, and glass. I assume wherever it goes, it has
little pieces of glass in everything, and if none of it comes back
to me, that's fine.
However, I prefer to put my used glass, by colour, into
the collection bins at the "civic amenity site".
WTF is a "civic amenity site"?
According to Wikipedia, it's our name for a "waste
collection courtyard", which is charming but glosses
over who is collecting waste from whom. I think some
things do get picked up, which worries me; at least one
TV I've owned was repaired incompletely before it came
to me, and so I'd prefer that household appliances that
I sever my relationship with on those terms are put
beyond use, as one says. I mean, they are anyway.
Sounds like what we call a "junk yard". The nearest one to me is a
considerable distance away and charges a fee to take anything.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
And glass tableware is made with different formulas
from food retail bottles and jars.
Nothing in the rules for single-stream recycling where I live prohibit
glass tableware from going in the bin. They don't allow light bulbs
or window glass. So how does this present an issue?
Explained. Please check your service's instructions.
<https://www.friendsofglass.com/gb/ecology-gb/is_more_better/>
I have told you what the instructions say. That "ecology-gb" has some
opinin or other is a matter of crashing indifference to a service
provided by a town government in the United States.
But the same stuff, and the same issues.
You told me and I don't believe you. But see this
from Glasgow City Council.
<https://www.glasgow.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=26968>
Light bulbs
Drinking glasses
Plates
Cups
Pyrex glass
This isn't actually my bins: as I said, one of mine
takes glass and other stuff. This purple bin is just glass.
Our government allows us a gray bin, a blue bin, and a brown bin.

Anything that is to be recycled according to their rules, copied and
pasted from the town web site:
<rules>
"Allowed Materials
The following items are recyclable and may all be placed together in
the blue recycling tipper.:

Glass containers from food and beverage, rinsed free of residue with
the caps and lids removed and discarded. Please no broken containers.
Aluminum cans from food and beverage, foils and tins rinsed free of
residue.
Plastic containers including plastic bottles (with or without caps
attached), plastic tubs & lids, plastic one-use cups (no lids, no
straws).
Paper products including newspapers, magazines, catalogs, mixed paper,
junk mail, computer printed paper and paper products such as cereal
boxes, pizza boxes that are not contaminated with food and/or grease,
cardboard egg cartons, juice boxes, milk cartons, shoe boxes, gift
boxes are all recyclable. Please remove any plastic or wax paper
liners from food boxes. All cardboard should be flattened and no
larger than 2 by 2 or 3 feet. Please remember to break down boxes,
flatten them out and put in the blue recycyling tipper barrel (not the
gray barrel).
Telephone books (New!)
Disallowed Materials
The following items are not recyclable and should be disposed of with
the household trash:

Plastic bags interfere with the recycling equipment and should not be
placed in the blue tipper barrel. This includes:
Grocery bags
Newspaper sleeves
Paper towel / toilet paper over wrap
Produce bags, dry cleaning bags
Zip lock bags
Styrofoam and other foam products
Toys, coat hangers, flower pots, pots and pans, cookie sheets, small
appliances
Pizza boxes that are contaminated with food and/or grease, paper
plates, plastic forks, knives and spoons, take-out food containers and
plastic coated plates
Window glass, light bulbs, mirrors, and medicine bottles
Motor oil, antifreeze and window washer containers"
</rules>

I live in the United States, the Glasgow City Council has no authority
here.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Are you trolling or are you really that ignorant? If the glass used
in ovenware can't be melted then how do you think the ovenware is
formed? You might want to do a bit of googling. Try "Pyrex" and
"hard glass" and "soft glass" and "borosilicate".
http://youtu.be/ImUvNxlxGGc
My link above addresses the same question.
I think it's still a no.
A "no"? You are asserting despite the major manufacturer of glass
ovenware SHOWING IN A VIDEO the melting of the glass used that glass
ovenware cannot be melted?
How much use would it be if it could?
The same use as any other glass.
Post by Robert Carnegie
I expect it won't survive the expansion of the Sun
the relevant point in the meantime is that the
glassmakers don't want it back.
Who said they don't? The recycling rules are set by the government.
In the case of the town I inhabit those are apparently based on what
the lowest-bidder recycling company will accept. Given that Pyrex
ovenware contains a good deal of recycled Pyrex already I don't see
why they would object to more recycled Pyrex.
Robert Carnegie
2021-08-04 00:13:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 12:16:22 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 05:52:57 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 01:50:41 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 02:42:20 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
In a properly managed society, IMO, there would be one waste bin all
of whose contents get sorted and reused or destroyed as appropriate.
Yes, it means the reyclers have to work harder. So why should _they_
get an easy ride on the backs of the rest of us?
Turn it around. Why should someone else handle
your trash responsibly if you don't?
Because I'm paying them to handle the trash, they're not paying me.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Who is so much
beneath you that they deserve to do that?
"Beneath"? We're paying trash experts to deal with trash. If they
consider doing the job they are paid for to be "beneath" the people
who are paying them that shows that they have an attitude problem.
Post by Robert Carnegie
And how
much are you willing to pay for that work to be done
on your behalf?
How much is it going to cost?
Oh, well... How much will it cost to have someone stay
in your house to receive your trash items and handle
them for individual recycling? Because that's what
needs to be done. Maybe have them cook and clean
and bathe you, too.
And as for respecting them?
In practice, your recyclables tend to be picked through
!by hand by prisoners, or workfarers, or the destitute,
or foreigners, or destitute foreigners.
If that's what recycling companies are doing then we should fine them
for that as well. Humans should not be doing this, this should be
autoamted. Yes, figuring out how to do it may take some work. So
does making an airplane fly itself and yet we've done that.
If you make machines do it, all you get is an army
of deeply aggrieved robots. Not good.
I'm saying, it's your waste, you sort it - if you genuinely
believe that making other people do it for you, as I described,
is wrong.
Other people already sort it. They just do a half-assed job and so
won't take most stuff that really should be recycles.
Well, if someone somewhere wants that stuff,
you can mail it to them.
I am obligated by law to put it in the recycling bin. It is up to the
people on the other end to deal with it.
Not at all. It is your property. You can keep it.
You can give it away. You can sell it on eBay.
Possibly you're breaking local law if you put it
in the wrong bin, but in that case they probably
just don't take it.

<https://www.nespresso.com/uk/en/recycling>
invites British users of coffee machine "pods"
to send them for recycling by mail. I am in doubt
that this is useful, given the environmental effect
of the shipping. You also can mail potato chip
packets to the manufacturer in boxes (better)
or individually (this seems to be a protest against
the product packaging, you could just not buy
the product).
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
If no one anywhere wants it, then it can't really
be recycled.
If nobody wants it then the government should not be compelling us to
recycle it under penalty of law,.
It's only done by regulation if theoretically someone
does want it - or as some kind of sneaky attack on
imported products, q.v.

In practice, the best bidder to buy your mingled
muck may be someone who simply intends to
burn it, as fuel. Perhaps you could do that, too.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Well - about 18 years ago, they were telling us
that a British freeway was built on old pulp romance
novels. And others, but apparently they wanted
us to know about the romance. It's human interest.
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/3330245.stm>
There's also talk about making roads from little bits
of plastic that are no good for anything else... this seems
to me to be leaving in the Environment a quantity of
little bits of plastic that are also no good for the Environment,
but would they be doing that if it was stupid?
When has the government ever let something being stupid stand in its
way?
Post by Robert Carnegie
And unsuitable glass, actually.
What makes glass "unsuitable"?
The stuff that glass recyclers don't want to recycle.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Now, does this count as recycling, or as landfill?
Repurposing.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
The residual waste stream includes human and
animal excrement, broken glassware (doesn't recycle),
rotten food, other horrors... would you, personally,
accept any product that was "recycled" out of that?
Excrement and rotten food should be composted, not wasted. And in
what universe does broken glass not melt as easily as unbroken glass?
And if the recyclers were doing their job properly then I would accept
any product that was recycled out of that.
You don't mind the little bits of glass then...
Why would there be "little bits of glass"? And why is there not now
"Little bits of glass" in single-stream recycling? Are you so naive
that you believe that no glass ever gets broken during the process of
dumping the bin in the truck?
One of my household bins accepts steel and aluminium cans,
certain plastics, and glass. I assume wherever it goes, it has
little pieces of glass in everything, and if none of it comes back
to me, that's fine.
However, I prefer to put my used glass, by colour, into
the collection bins at the "civic amenity site".
WTF is a "civic amenity site"?
According to Wikipedia, it's our name for a "waste
collection courtyard", which is charming but glosses
over who is collecting waste from whom. I think some
things do get picked up, which worries me; at least one
TV I've owned was repaired incompletely before it came
to me, and so I'd prefer that household appliances that
I sever my relationship with on those terms are put
beyond use, as one says. I mean, they are anyway.
Sounds like what we call a "junk yard". The nearest one to me is a
considerable distance away and charges a fee to take anything.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
And glass tableware is made with different formulas
from food retail bottles and jars.
Nothing in the rules for single-stream recycling where I live prohibit
glass tableware from going in the bin. They don't allow light bulbs
or window glass. So how does this present an issue?
Explained. Please check your service's instructions.
<https://www.friendsofglass.com/gb/ecology-gb/is_more_better/>
I have told you what the instructions say. That "ecology-gb" has some
opinin or other is a matter of crashing indifference to a service
provided by a town government in the United States.
But the same stuff, and the same issues.
You told me and I don't believe you. But see this
from Glasgow City Council.
<https://www.glasgow.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=26968>
Light bulbs
Drinking glasses
Plates
Cups
Pyrex glass
This isn't actually my bins: as I said, one of mine
takes glass and other stuff. This purple bin is just glass.
Our government allows us a gray bin, a blue bin, and a brown bin.
Anything that is to be recycled according to their rules, copied and
<rules>
"Allowed Materials
The following items are recyclable and may all be placed together in
Glass containers from food and beverage, rinsed free of residue with
the caps and lids removed and discarded. Please no broken containers.
Aluminum cans from food and beverage, foils and tins rinsed free of
residue.
Plastic containers including plastic bottles (with or without caps
attached), plastic tubs & lids, plastic one-use cups (no lids, no
straws).
Paper products including newspapers, magazines, catalogs, mixed paper,
junk mail, computer printed paper and paper products such as cereal
boxes, pizza boxes that are not contaminated with food and/or grease,
cardboard egg cartons, juice boxes, milk cartons, shoe boxes, gift
boxes are all recyclable. Please remove any plastic or wax paper
liners from food boxes. All cardboard should be flattened and no
larger than 2 by 2 or 3 feet. Please remember to break down boxes,
flatten them out and put in the blue recycyling tipper barrel (not the
gray barrel).
Telephone books (New!)
Disallowed Materials
The following items are not recyclable and should be disposed of with
Plastic bags interfere with the recycling equipment and should not be
Grocery bags
Newspaper sleeves
Paper towel / toilet paper over wrap
Produce bags, dry cleaning bags
Zip lock bags
Styrofoam and other foam products
Toys, coat hangers, flower pots, pots and pans, cookie sheets, small
appliances
Pizza boxes that are contaminated with food and/or grease, paper
plates, plastic forks, knives and spoons, take-out food containers and
plastic coated plates
Window glass, light bulbs, mirrors, and medicine bottles
Motor oil, antifreeze and window washer containers"
</rules>
I live in the United States, the Glasgow City Council has no authority
here.
Well, what isn't "Allowed" is not allowed. Apparently they
find it worthwhile to provide a "Not allowed" list because
otherwise they get that stuff in the recycle bin anyway.

It could be argued in court, but when they accept
"Glass containers from food and beverage", I do not
think that glass bowls, wine glasses, or Pyrex are meant,
although these do contain foods or beverages when used.
They want bottles and jars with, or as it is, without metal lids.
Glasgow wants the lids left on: I would say that makes more
sense if stuff is all mixed in one recycling bin, you don't want
metal or plastic bits getting inside the glass containers.
But Glasgow gives glass its own bin, so I'm puzzled.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Are you trolling or are you really that ignorant? If the glass used
in ovenware can't be melted then how do you think the ovenware is
formed? You might want to do a bit of googling. Try "Pyrex" and
"hard glass" and "soft glass" and "borosilicate".
http://youtu.be/ImUvNxlxGGc
My link above addresses the same question.
I think it's still a no.
A "no"? You are asserting despite the major manufacturer of glass
ovenware SHOWING IN A VIDEO the melting of the glass used that glass
ovenware cannot be melted?
How much use would it be if it could?
The same use as any other glass.
Not much use if it melts in the oven. You could
try cooking pizza...
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I expect it won't survive the expansion of the Sun
the relevant point in the meantime is that the
glassmakers don't want it back.
Who said they don't? The recycling rules are set by the government.
In the case of the town I inhabit those are apparently based on what
the lowest-bidder recycling company will accept. Given that Pyrex
ovenware contains a good deal of recycled Pyrex already I don't see
why they would object to more recycled Pyrex.
J. Clarke
2021-08-04 00:30:33 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 17:13:26 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 12:16:22 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 05:52:57 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 01:50:41 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 02:42:20 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
In a properly managed society, IMO, there would be one waste bin all
of whose contents get sorted and reused or destroyed as appropriate.
Yes, it means the reyclers have to work harder. So why should _they_
get an easy ride on the backs of the rest of us?
Turn it around. Why should someone else handle
your trash responsibly if you don't?
Because I'm paying them to handle the trash, they're not paying me.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Who is so much
beneath you that they deserve to do that?
"Beneath"? We're paying trash experts to deal with trash. If they
consider doing the job they are paid for to be "beneath" the people
who are paying them that shows that they have an attitude problem.
Post by Robert Carnegie
And how
much are you willing to pay for that work to be done
on your behalf?
How much is it going to cost?
Oh, well... How much will it cost to have someone stay
in your house to receive your trash items and handle
them for individual recycling? Because that's what
needs to be done. Maybe have them cook and clean
and bathe you, too.
And as for respecting them?
In practice, your recyclables tend to be picked through
!by hand by prisoners, or workfarers, or the destitute,
or foreigners, or destitute foreigners.
If that's what recycling companies are doing then we should fine them
for that as well. Humans should not be doing this, this should be
autoamted. Yes, figuring out how to do it may take some work. So
does making an airplane fly itself and yet we've done that.
If you make machines do it, all you get is an army
of deeply aggrieved robots. Not good.
I'm saying, it's your waste, you sort it - if you genuinely
believe that making other people do it for you, as I described,
is wrong.
Other people already sort it. They just do a half-assed job and so
won't take most stuff that really should be recycles.
Well, if someone somewhere wants that stuff,
you can mail it to them.
I am obligated by law to put it in the recycling bin. It is up to the
people on the other end to deal with it.
Not at all. It is your property. You can keep it.
You can give it away. You can sell it on eBay.
Possibly you're breaking local law if you put it
in the wrong bin, but in that case they probably
just don't take it.
The town takes it. Any other option involves me spending money to get
rid of it.
Post by Robert Carnegie
<https://www.nespresso.com/uk/en/recycling>
invites British users of coffee machine "pods"
to send them for recycling by mail. I am in doubt
that this is useful, given the environmental effect
of the shipping. You also can mail potato chip
packets to the manufacturer in boxes (better)
or individually (this seems to be a protest against
the product packaging, you could just not buy
the product).
That's nice. What's the international shipping on a nespresso pod?
And is the coffee any better than a keurig pod?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
If no one anywhere wants it, then it can't really
be recycled.
If nobody wants it then the government should not be compelling us to
recycle it under penalty of law,.
It's only done by regulation if theoretically someone
does want it - or as some kind of sneaky attack on
imported products, q.v.
It is done by regulation because it has been decided by the government
that we must be made to recycle whether we like it or not.
Post by Robert Carnegie
In practice, the best bidder to buy your mingled
muck may be someone who simply intends to
burn it, as fuel. Perhaps you could do that, too.
Nope. Town doesn't allow burning.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Well - about 18 years ago, they were telling us
that a British freeway was built on old pulp romance
novels. And others, but apparently they wanted
us to know about the romance. It's human interest.
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/3330245.stm>
There's also talk about making roads from little bits
of plastic that are no good for anything else... this seems
to me to be leaving in the Environment a quantity of
little bits of plastic that are also no good for the Environment,
but would they be doing that if it was stupid?
When has the government ever let something being stupid stand in its
way?
Post by Robert Carnegie
And unsuitable glass, actually.
What makes glass "unsuitable"?
The stuff that glass recyclers don't want to recycle.
What stuff is that?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Now, does this count as recycling, or as landfill?
Repurposing.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
The residual waste stream includes human and
animal excrement, broken glassware (doesn't recycle),
rotten food, other horrors... would you, personally,
accept any product that was "recycled" out of that?
Excrement and rotten food should be composted, not wasted. And in
what universe does broken glass not melt as easily as unbroken glass?
And if the recyclers were doing their job properly then I would accept
any product that was recycled out of that.
You don't mind the little bits of glass then...
Why would there be "little bits of glass"? And why is there not now
"Little bits of glass" in single-stream recycling? Are you so naive
that you believe that no glass ever gets broken during the process of
dumping the bin in the truck?
One of my household bins accepts steel and aluminium cans,
certain plastics, and glass. I assume wherever it goes, it has
little pieces of glass in everything, and if none of it comes back
to me, that's fine.
However, I prefer to put my used glass, by colour, into
the collection bins at the "civic amenity site".
WTF is a "civic amenity site"?
According to Wikipedia, it's our name for a "waste
collection courtyard", which is charming but glosses
over who is collecting waste from whom. I think some
things do get picked up, which worries me; at least one
TV I've owned was repaired incompletely before it came
to me, and so I'd prefer that household appliances that
I sever my relationship with on those terms are put
beyond use, as one says. I mean, they are anyway.
Sounds like what we call a "junk yard". The nearest one to me is a
considerable distance away and charges a fee to take anything.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
And glass tableware is made with different formulas
from food retail bottles and jars.
Nothing in the rules for single-stream recycling where I live prohibit
glass tableware from going in the bin. They don't allow light bulbs
or window glass. So how does this present an issue?
Explained. Please check your service's instructions.
<https://www.friendsofglass.com/gb/ecology-gb/is_more_better/>
I have told you what the instructions say. That "ecology-gb" has some
opinin or other is a matter of crashing indifference to a service
provided by a town government in the United States.
But the same stuff, and the same issues.
You told me and I don't believe you. But see this
from Glasgow City Council.
<https://www.glasgow.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=26968>
Light bulbs
Drinking glasses
Plates
Cups
Pyrex glass
This isn't actually my bins: as I said, one of mine
takes glass and other stuff. This purple bin is just glass.
Our government allows us a gray bin, a blue bin, and a brown bin.
Anything that is to be recycled according to their rules, copied and
<rules>
"Allowed Materials
The following items are recyclable and may all be placed together in
Glass containers from food and beverage, rinsed free of residue with
the caps and lids removed and discarded. Please no broken containers.
Aluminum cans from food and beverage, foils and tins rinsed free of
residue.
Plastic containers including plastic bottles (with or without caps
attached), plastic tubs & lids, plastic one-use cups (no lids, no
straws).
Paper products including newspapers, magazines, catalogs, mixed paper,
junk mail, computer printed paper and paper products such as cereal
boxes, pizza boxes that are not contaminated with food and/or grease,
cardboard egg cartons, juice boxes, milk cartons, shoe boxes, gift
boxes are all recyclable. Please remove any plastic or wax paper
liners from food boxes. All cardboard should be flattened and no
larger than 2 by 2 or 3 feet. Please remember to break down boxes,
flatten them out and put in the blue recycyling tipper barrel (not the
gray barrel).
Telephone books (New!)
Disallowed Materials
The following items are not recyclable and should be disposed of with
Plastic bags interfere with the recycling equipment and should not be
Grocery bags
Newspaper sleeves
Paper towel / toilet paper over wrap
Produce bags, dry cleaning bags
Zip lock bags
Styrofoam and other foam products
Toys, coat hangers, flower pots, pots and pans, cookie sheets, small
appliances
Pizza boxes that are contaminated with food and/or grease, paper
plates, plastic forks, knives and spoons, take-out food containers and
plastic coated plates
Window glass, light bulbs, mirrors, and medicine bottles
Motor oil, antifreeze and window washer containers"
</rules>
I live in the United States, the Glasgow City Council has no authority
here.
Well, what isn't "Allowed" is not allowed. Apparently they
find it worthwhile to provide a "Not allowed" list because
otherwise they get that stuff in the recycle bin anyway.
It could be argued in court, but when they accept
"Glass containers from food and beverage", I do not
think that glass bowls, wine glasses, or Pyrex are meant,
although these do contain foods or beverages when used.
They are not on the prohibited list though.
Post by Robert Carnegie
They want bottles and jars with, or as it is, without metal lids.
Glasgow wants the lids left on: I would say that makes more
sense if stuff is all mixed in one recycling bin, you don't want
metal or plastic bits getting inside the glass containers.
But Glasgow gives glass its own bin, so I'm puzzled.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Are you trolling or are you really that ignorant? If the glass used
in ovenware can't be melted then how do you think the ovenware is
formed? You might want to do a bit of googling. Try "Pyrex" and
"hard glass" and "soft glass" and "borosilicate".
http://youtu.be/ImUvNxlxGGc
My link above addresses the same question.
I think it's still a no.
A "no"? You are asserting despite the major manufacturer of glass
ovenware SHOWING IN A VIDEO the melting of the glass used that glass
ovenware cannot be melted?
How much use would it be if it could?
The same use as any other glass.
Not much use if it melts in the oven. You could
try cooking pizza...
Please identify a commercially available kind of glass that melts in a
domestic cooking oven. The problem with glass for baking is not that
it melts, it is that it cracks.

Really, your comments about glass show a rather amazing, and rather
_determined_ degree of ignorance.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I expect it won't survive the expansion of the Sun
the relevant point in the meantime is that the
glassmakers don't want it back.
Who said they don't? The recycling rules are set by the government.
In the case of the town I inhabit those are apparently based on what
the lowest-bidder recycling company will accept. Given that Pyrex
ovenware contains a good deal of recycled Pyrex already I don't see
why they would object to more recycled Pyrex.
Paul S Person
2021-08-04 15:38:05 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 17:13:26 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<snippo>
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
I am obligated by law to put it in the recycling bin. It is up to the
people on the other end to deal with it.
Not at all. It is your property. You can keep it.
You can give it away. You can sell it on eBay.
Possibly you're breaking local law if you put it
in the wrong bin, but in that case they probably
just don't take it.
Or charge a fine. Or leave a nasty note.

But this is not really an answer to the objection. The OP has already
decided to get rid of it; his complaint is that his local gummint has
rules for how he is to do so.

<snippo>
Post by Robert Carnegie
Well, what isn't "Allowed" is not allowed. Apparently they
find it worthwhile to provide a "Not allowed" list because
otherwise they get that stuff in the recycle bin anyway.
Or because they get a lot of people calling in and asking if
such-and-such can be recycled.

Or to establish a positive legal requirement that they can then fine
the violator for violating.

<snip first bit>
Post by Robert Carnegie
They want bottles and jars with, or as it is, without metal lids.
Glasgow wants the lids left on: I would say that makes more
sense if stuff is all mixed in one recycling bin, you don't want
metal or plastic bits getting inside the glass containers.
But Glasgow gives glass its own bin, so I'm puzzled.
They finally allowed lids and caps to be recycled here -- provided
they are still attached to a recyclable container.

Maybe they found a market for them. The metal lids seem especially
promising in that regard.

Maybe they were appalled by how many bottle caps were ending up in the
trash.

Maybe they just got tired of the complaints.

Here, they stopped taking plastic bags in the City pickups -- but QFC
(ie, Kroger) has, for some time, accepted plastic bags, and they
aren't /that/ hard to accumulate and take down in the reusable
shopping bags.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Titus G
2021-08-02 02:30:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
If you're offered bottled water by a hawker at an
Indian train station, rest assured that they extracted
that bottle from the heaps of exported American waste,
and peed in it.
Probably creating a healthier drink than the original.
Scott Lurndal
2021-07-30 14:07:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption.  They have machines for the
purpose.  I  should get a new used vehicle, first.  I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus.  Maybe when it cools down, some.
We used to have some of those machines around here.  The guy who owned
them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't making any money
off them.  (Or not enough money, same thing either way.)  Now I have to
take them all to the local waste disposal authority's buy back site.
Which has been shut down for at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep!  Its permanently closed now!  Apparently the space was taken by
an upgrade to their sorting capabilities.  The nearest facility now is a
ten mile drive each way!  <censored>
Wow. You don't have curbside recycling pickup right along with your
trash pickup?
Sure, but they don't pay you for your bottles and cans like
the redememtion centers (or recycling operations for Al cans)

Remember the days of reusable pop bottles, when every grocery
store was equipped to take returns and return the deposit?
Paul S Person
2021-07-30 15:21:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption.  They have machines for the
purpose.  I  should get a new used vehicle, first.  I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus.  Maybe when it cools down, some.
We used to have some of those machines around here.  The guy who owned
them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't making any money
off them.  (Or not enough money, same thing either way.)  Now I have to
take them all to the local waste disposal authority's buy back site.
Which has been shut down for at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep!  Its permanently closed now!  Apparently the space was taken by
an upgrade to their sorting capabilities.  The nearest facility now is a
ten mile drive each way!  <censored>
Wow. You don't have curbside recycling pickup right along with your
trash pickup?
Sure, but they don't pay you for your bottles and cans like
the redememtion centers (or recycling operations for Al cans)
Remember the days of reusable pop bottles, when every grocery
store was equipped to take returns and return the deposit?
I remember that being a big deal in Oregon, for some reason.

I remember collecting (and washing) "empties" from a
several-block-radius of houses. These were alcoholic, mostly beer.

Maybe it's time to end the "deposit", and simply require the
recycling.

Or, rather, /past/ time.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
pete...@gmail.com
2021-07-30 21:25:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption. They have machines for the
purpose. I should get a new used vehicle, first. I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus. Maybe when it cools down, some.
We used to have some of those machines around here. The guy who owned
them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't making any money
off them. (Or not enough money, same thing either way.) Now I have to
take them all to the local waste disposal authority's buy back site.
Which has been shut down for at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep! Its permanently closed now! Apparently the space was taken by
an upgrade to their sorting capabilities. The nearest facility now is a
ten mile drive each way! <censored>
Wow. You don't have curbside recycling pickup right along with your
trash pickup?
Sure, but they don't pay you for your bottles and cans like
the redememtion centers (or recycling operations for Al cans)
Remember the days of reusable pop bottles, when every grocery
store was equipped to take returns and return the deposit?
I remember that being a big deal in Oregon, for some reason.
I remember collecting (and washing) "empties" from a
several-block-radius of houses. These were alcoholic, mostly beer.
Maybe it's time to end the "deposit", and simply require the
recycling.
Or, rather, /past/ time.
The deposit was to prevent littering. It worked, by making it worthwhile for
poor people to pick up cans and bottles.

Myself, the deposit cans and bottles go straight into recycling. It's simply
not worth my time to retrieve those nickels.

Pt
J. Clarke
2021-07-30 15:27:58 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 08:20:38 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption.  They have machines for the
purpose.  I  should get a new used vehicle, first.  I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus.  Maybe when it cools down, some.
We used to have some of those machines around here.  The guy who owned
them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't making any money
off them.  (Or not enough money, same thing either way.)  Now I have to
take them all to the local waste disposal authority's buy back site.
Which has been shut down for at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep!  Its permanently closed now!  Apparently the space was taken by
an upgrade to their sorting capabilities.  The nearest facility now is a
ten mile drive each way!  <censored>
Wow. You don't have curbside recycling pickup right along with your
trash pickup? Every trash company that I've had since the mid-1990s
did both. My current one even has single-stream recycling, so that
I no longer need to sort into paper, aluminum, glass, ...
We have single-stream recycling which means that we have to sort into
"pizza boxes that got oil on them vs pizza boxes that did not get oil
on them", and "foam that is not Styrofoam vs foam that is Styrofoam",
and "plastic film that is a bag vs plastic film that is not a bag" and
so on.

We also have to save up light bulbs and the like for the
4-hours-a-year "hazardous waste dropoff".
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-30 15:51:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 08:20:38 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Kevrob
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption.  They have machines for the
purpose.  I  should get a new used vehicle, first.  I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus.  Maybe when it cools down, some.
We used to have some of those machines around here.  The guy who owned
them (or whatever) pulled them all because he wasn't making any money
off them.  (Or not enough money, same thing either way.)  Now I have to
take them all to the local waste disposal authority's buy back site.
Which has been shut down for at least a year now because of COVID.
<typing>
Bleep!  Its permanently closed now!  Apparently the space was taken by
an upgrade to their sorting capabilities.  The nearest facility now is a
ten mile drive each way!  <censored>
Wow. You don't have curbside recycling pickup right along with your
trash pickup? Every trash company that I've had since the mid-1990s
did both. My current one even has single-stream recycling, so that
I no longer need to sort into paper, aluminum, glass, ...
We have single-stream recycling which means that we have to sort into
"pizza boxes that got oil on them vs pizza boxes that did not get oil
on them", and "foam that is not Styrofoam vs foam that is Styrofoam",
and "plastic film that is a bag vs plastic film that is not a bag" and
so on.
We also have to save up light bulbs and the like for the
4-hours-a-year "hazardous waste dropoff".
We have a corner of a bookcase where dead light bulbs, batteries,
and assorted electronics are stowed till Hal finds time to make a
dump run. Then he loads up the truck (I used to help, can't now)
and puts cardboard in the cardboard bin, electronics in the
electronics bin, and light bulbs, batteries, outdated
medications, and other poassibly hazardous stuff to the separate
hazmat dump, where they will take everything that's left in the
truck bed.

Ordinary garbage (including used kitty litter) and recycling
(paper, steel, cardboard that folds down small enough to go into
the bin) gets picked up on Tuesday morning.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
J. Clarke
2021-07-29 10:15:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
A week ago, when I went out to take my garbage bin (which the
collectors leave sitting, uncovered, on the lid) I saw ... water ...
inside!
I wouldn't say it rained, but "sprinkled" might not be unreasonable.
Some is better than none, and it's also better than way too much.
Weather page is still saying Vallejo's going to have a high of 83
today. At 11 AM, it's just reached 70.
--
[Vent]
People who let garbage cans/bins or their lids collect standing
water. It encourages the growth of mosquitos!
*IF* there's been any rain. Sometimes we get lots; other times
(such as last winter, which is supposed to be the rainy season)
we don't get any.
We keep our garbage and recycling in the kitchen until Monday
afternoon, not long before sunset, when Hal hauls both bags out
to the bins in the alley.
But although aluminum cans *could* go into the recycling, we
never do. If we did, some of the locals would come by and dig
through all the recycling, taking the cans out and leaving the
rest of the recycling on the ground.
We too have enterprising individuals wandering the streets (or
following a planned route) before the recycling truck comes,
attempting to collect anything they can redeem. The city may
have a problem with them. If it actually redeems bottles and cans
itself, or sells them in bulk to a recycler, cherry-picking the recycling
stream could be seen as petty larceny! I don't begrudge those folks
the nickel. I do dislike any mess they may leave as they go.
So we store them in bags till we have enough to justify Hal's
making a trip to the recycling center, where he can get enough
money back just about to pay for the gas required to take them
there.
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption. They have machines for the
purpose. I should get a new used vehicle, first. I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus. Maybe when it cools down, some.
I'd prefer the
Post by Kevrob
bins be stood on end, with the lid set on what is normally the
bottom, and the top of the lid facing the sky.
I can't quite visualize what you're proposing. Is the lid a
separate piece from the bin? (Ours have hinged lids.)
Or do you, like Hal, take the stuff out just before it can be
picked up? And, unlike Hal, invert the bins as soon as they're
empty?
--
One has a hinged lid. The other has a round, removable lid.
The second kind should be treated the way I suggested.
Just close the lid on the first.
You're lucky. Here we are required by town ordinance to use
"approved" barrels with attached lids. The only approved barrels are
the ones the town sells and the town rations them.
Post by Kevrob
We do get rain in New England, on the Long Island Sound
coast, and the river valley where I live, 10 miles inland.
Bugs are still going to breed in puddles that don't drain
or evaporate quickly, and in the wetlands near the river.
Those are less likely to make it up the hill to our little
apt house and its lawn in any great number. Best case,
they are dinner for fish, frogs, birds and bats.
The recycling container has holes in the bottom meant to allow
liquid to drip through.
West Nile Virus. They've found some two towns south
of me. Jamestown Canyon virus has been found to the
immediate east.
https://www.ctpost.com/news/article/West-Nile-Virus-now-in-seven-Connecticut-towns-16346072.php
We can't blame Lyme disease on them. Ticks are the
culprit for those.
I pointed out to the landlord today where a kitchen window
needs a repaired or new screen. While the sleeping rooms
all have A/C, allowing us to keep the windows closed, the
common areas do not, and one must have the windows
open and a fan blowing when cooking. Making toast will
set off the smoke alarms! {slight exaggeration}
Lynn McGuire
2021-07-29 19:42:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
A week ago, when I went out to take my garbage bin (which the
collectors leave sitting, uncovered, on the lid) I saw ... water ...
inside!
I wouldn't say it rained, but "sprinkled" might not be unreasonable.
Some is better than none, and it's also better than way too much.
Weather page is still saying Vallejo's going to have a high of 83
today. At 11 AM, it's just reached 70.
--
[Vent]
People who let garbage cans/bins or their lids collect standing
water. It encourages the growth of mosquitos!
*IF* there's been any rain. Sometimes we get lots; other times
(such as last winter, which is supposed to be the rainy season)
we don't get any.
We keep our garbage and recycling in the kitchen until Monday
afternoon, not long before sunset, when Hal hauls both bags out
to the bins in the alley.
But although aluminum cans *could* go into the recycling, we
never do. If we did, some of the locals would come by and dig
through all the recycling, taking the cans out and leaving the
rest of the recycling on the ground.
We too have enterprising individuals wandering the streets (or
following a planned route) before the recycling truck comes,
attempting to collect anything they can redeem. The city may
have a problem with them. If it actually redeems bottles and cans
itself, or sells them in bulk to a recycler, cherry-picking the recycling
stream could be seen as petty larceny! I don't begrudge those folks
the nickel. I do dislike any mess they may leave as they go.
So we store them in bags till we have enough to justify Hal's
making a trip to the recycling center, where he can get enough
money back just about to pay for the gas required to take them
there.
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption. They have machines for the
purpose. I should get a new used vehicle, first. I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus. Maybe when it cools down, some.
I'd prefer the
Post by Kevrob
bins be stood on end, with the lid set on what is normally the
bottom, and the top of the lid facing the sky.
I can't quite visualize what you're proposing. Is the lid a
separate piece from the bin? (Ours have hinged lids.)
Or do you, like Hal, take the stuff out just before it can be
picked up? And, unlike Hal, invert the bins as soon as they're
empty?
--
One has a hinged lid. The other has a round, removable lid.
The second kind should be treated the way I suggested.
Just close the lid on the first.
We do get rain in New England, on the Long Island Sound
coast, and the river valley where I live, 10 miles inland.
Bugs are still going to breed in puddles that don't drain
or evaporate quickly, and in the wetlands near the river.
Those are less likely to make it up the hill to our little
apt house and its lawn in any great number. Best case,
they are dinner for fish, frogs, birds and bats.
The recycling container has holes in the bottom meant to allow
liquid to drip through.
West Nile Virus. They've found some two towns south
of me. Jamestown Canyon virus has been found to the
immediate east.
https://www.ctpost.com/news/article/West-Nile-Virus-now-in-seven-Connecticut-towns-16346072.php
We can't blame Lyme disease on them. Ticks are the
culprit for those.
I pointed out to the landlord today where a kitchen window
needs a repaired or new screen. While the sleeping rooms
all have A/C, allowing us to keep the windows closed, the
common areas do not, and one must have the windows
open and a fan blowing when cooking. Making toast will
set off the smoke alarms! {slight exaggeration}
We have raccoons. If they fancy your trash or recycle, the mess can be
quite amazing. I once saw them distribute turkey remains over 200 ft2.
Was not near as much fun to pick up either. I make sure that we bag
everything to cut the smell down. My mother puts bungee cords on her
trash can lids.

Lynn
Kevrob
2021-07-29 22:02:51 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 3:42:18 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:

[snip]
We have raccoons. If they fancy your trash or recycle, the mess can be
quite amazing. I once saw them distribute turkey remains over 200 ft2.
Was not near as much fun to pick up either. I make sure that we bag
everything to cut the smell down. My mother puts bungee cords on her
trash can lids.
We have the "trash pandas" around here, along with opossum,
skunk, and on a quiet night you can hear the weird cry of the
fisher.* `Coons are the ones who get into trash. We are required
to bag our trash by the city, or their trash contractor. Pickup
goes a lot faster when garbage is bagged. Cans that lock in
order to thwart raccoons or humans trying to slip their garbage
into your bin are a thing. {Lazy dogwalkers are the worst!}

I once did scheduling for a company that arranged for delivery,
removal and cleaning of receptacles, from wheelies to dumpsters.
[skips]. We also arranged to put locks on those, and while sometimes
it was to prevent animals getting in, more often it was to thwart
dumpster diving for food, unshredded business records or anything
else of perceived value that gets tossed. Some containers would
get "contaminated" by some jerk tossing a bag of kitchen trash into
a dumpster dedicated to construction materials, frex. It costs
businesses to get a dumpster power-washed.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_(animal)
--
Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-29 23:52:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Kevrob
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
A week ago, when I went out to take my garbage bin (which the
collectors leave sitting, uncovered, on the lid) I saw ... water ...
inside!
I wouldn't say it rained, but "sprinkled" might not be unreasonable.
Some is better than none, and it's also better than way too much.
Weather page is still saying Vallejo's going to have a high of 83
today. At 11 AM, it's just reached 70.
--
[Vent]
People who let garbage cans/bins or their lids collect standing
water. It encourages the growth of mosquitos!
*IF* there's been any rain. Sometimes we get lots; other times
(such as last winter, which is supposed to be the rainy season)
we don't get any.
We keep our garbage and recycling in the kitchen until Monday
afternoon, not long before sunset, when Hal hauls both bags out
to the bins in the alley.
But although aluminum cans *could* go into the recycling, we
never do. If we did, some of the locals would come by and dig
through all the recycling, taking the cans out and leaving the
rest of the recycling on the ground.
We too have enterprising individuals wandering the streets (or
following a planned route) before the recycling truck comes,
attempting to collect anything they can redeem. The city may
have a problem with them. If it actually redeems bottles and cans
itself, or sells them in bulk to a recycler, cherry-picking the recycling
stream could be seen as petty larceny! I don't begrudge those folks
the nickel. I do dislike any mess they may leave as they go.
So we store them in bags till we have enough to justify Hal's
making a trip to the recycling center, where he can get enough
money back just about to pay for the gas required to take them
there.
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption. They have machines for the
purpose. I should get a new used vehicle, first. I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus. Maybe when it cools down, some.
I'd prefer the
Post by Kevrob
bins be stood on end, with the lid set on what is normally the
bottom, and the top of the lid facing the sky.
I can't quite visualize what you're proposing. Is the lid a
separate piece from the bin? (Ours have hinged lids.)
Or do you, like Hal, take the stuff out just before it can be
picked up? And, unlike Hal, invert the bins as soon as they're
empty?
--
One has a hinged lid. The other has a round, removable lid.
The second kind should be treated the way I suggested.
Just close the lid on the first.
We do get rain in New England, on the Long Island Sound
coast, and the river valley where I live, 10 miles inland.
Bugs are still going to breed in puddles that don't drain
or evaporate quickly, and in the wetlands near the river.
Those are less likely to make it up the hill to our little
apt house and its lawn in any great number. Best case,
they are dinner for fish, frogs, birds and bats.
The recycling container has holes in the bottom meant to allow
liquid to drip through.
West Nile Virus. They've found some two towns south
of me. Jamestown Canyon virus has been found to the
immediate east.
https://www.ctpost.com/news/article/West-Nile-Virus-now-in-seven-Connecticut-towns-16346072.php
Post by Kevrob
We can't blame Lyme disease on them. Ticks are the
culprit for those.
I pointed out to the landlord today where a kitchen window
needs a repaired or new screen. While the sleeping rooms
all have A/C, allowing us to keep the windows closed, the
common areas do not, and one must have the windows
open and a fan blowing when cooking. Making toast will
set off the smoke alarms! {slight exaggeration}
We have raccoons. If they fancy your trash or recycle, the mess can be
quite amazing. I once saw them distribute turkey remains over 200 ft2.
Was not near as much fun to pick up either. I make sure that we bag
everything to cut the smell down. My mother puts bungee cords on her
trash can lids.
Our trash and our recycling go into (separate) Large Trash Bags,
whose plastic string ties are tied firmly shut before they're
taken out. I've never seen it scattered around, so I must assume
they don't get a chance to lure in the raccoons before they're
picked up. (Mental image of a Warner-Brothers-influenced raccoon
floating nose-first along a wave of Eau de Poulet)

And we do have raccoons in the neighborhood; they used to live in
our attic before the landlord (for whom the word "absentee" is
inadequate) finally broke down and got the roof fixed.

I remember, standing in the upstairs kitchen one day and hearing
this sweet chirping sound. Looked out the window and saw a
mother raccoon coaxing her half-grown offspring to climb up the
tree and get into the roof. (Chorus of "Awwwwww.")

The trees in the alley all died of the drought, and Hal got an
electric trimmer and cut them all down last year, because the
city was getting determined about it.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2021-07-30 15:29:20 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 14:42:10 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
A week ago, when I went out to take my garbage bin (which the
collectors leave sitting, uncovered, on the lid) I saw ... water ...
inside!
I wouldn't say it rained, but "sprinkled" might not be unreasonable.
Some is better than none, and it's also better than way too much.
Weather page is still saying Vallejo's going to have a high of 83
today. At 11 AM, it's just reached 70.
--
[Vent]
People who let garbage cans/bins or their lids collect standing
water. It encourages the growth of mosquitos!
*IF* there's been any rain. Sometimes we get lots; other times
(such as last winter, which is supposed to be the rainy season)
we don't get any.
We keep our garbage and recycling in the kitchen until Monday
afternoon, not long before sunset, when Hal hauls both bags out
to the bins in the alley.
But although aluminum cans *could* go into the recycling, we
never do. If we did, some of the locals would come by and dig
through all the recycling, taking the cans out and leaving the
rest of the recycling on the ground.
We too have enterprising individuals wandering the streets (or
following a planned route) before the recycling truck comes,
attempting to collect anything they can redeem. The city may
have a problem with them. If it actually redeems bottles and cans
itself, or sells them in bulk to a recycler, cherry-picking the recycling
stream could be seen as petty larceny! I don't begrudge those folks
the nickel. I do dislike any mess they may leave as they go.
So we store them in bags till we have enough to justify Hal's
making a trip to the recycling center, where he can get enough
money back just about to pay for the gas required to take them
there.
I have a large bag of bottles and another of cans that I need to take
to the supermarket for redemption. They have machines for the
purpose. I should get a new used vehicle, first. I could take 1 bag
at a time via bus. Maybe when it cools down, some.
I'd prefer the
Post by Kevrob
bins be stood on end, with the lid set on what is normally the
bottom, and the top of the lid facing the sky.
I can't quite visualize what you're proposing. Is the lid a
separate piece from the bin? (Ours have hinged lids.)
Or do you, like Hal, take the stuff out just before it can be
picked up? And, unlike Hal, invert the bins as soon as they're
empty?
--
One has a hinged lid. The other has a round, removable lid.
The second kind should be treated the way I suggested.
Just close the lid on the first.
We do get rain in New England, on the Long Island Sound
coast, and the river valley where I live, 10 miles inland.
Bugs are still going to breed in puddles that don't drain
or evaporate quickly, and in the wetlands near the river.
Those are less likely to make it up the hill to our little
apt house and its lawn in any great number. Best case,
they are dinner for fish, frogs, birds and bats.
The recycling container has holes in the bottom meant to allow
liquid to drip through.
West Nile Virus. They've found some two towns south
of me. Jamestown Canyon virus has been found to the
immediate east.
https://www.ctpost.com/news/article/West-Nile-Virus-now-in-seven-Connecticut-towns-16346072.php
We can't blame Lyme disease on them. Ticks are the
culprit for those.
I pointed out to the landlord today where a kitchen window
needs a repaired or new screen. While the sleeping rooms
all have A/C, allowing us to keep the windows closed, the
common areas do not, and one must have the windows
open and a fan blowing when cooking. Making toast will
set off the smoke alarms! {slight exaggeration}
We have raccoons. If they fancy your trash or recycle, the mess can be
quite amazing. I once saw them distribute turkey remains over 200 ft2.
Was not near as much fun to pick up either. I make sure that we bag
everything to cut the smell down. My mother puts bungee cords on her
trash can lids.
Ah ... urban wildlife!

Some of them, before I began pulling the 'shrooms out regularly, would
eat the mushrooms that pop up in the fall and then leave little ...
gifts ... on the lawn.

We have possums as well as raccoons. Also beavers, but those are
mostly in the parks near water. And, if IIRC what has been reported on
Nextdoor, coyotes. Not to mention the raptors.

Over in Spokane, they occasionally have cougars (aka mountain lions,
etc). Of course, they also have Cougars, local college football
players. Sometimes it's hard to tell which of them a given story is
about.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Scott Lurndal
2021-07-30 16:25:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
We have possums as well as raccoons. Also beavers, but those are
mostly in the parks near water. And, if IIRC what has been reported on
Nextdoor, coyotes. Not to mention the raptors.
Well, we do have raptors around here, but mostly they soar high
over the freeways, waiting for roadkill.
Here, they spend all afternoon riding the thermals in the
sunny summer afternoons. I've seen up to two dozen
turkey vultures dancing in the sky in the afternoon.
Post by Paul S Person
Over in Spokane, they occasionally have cougars (aka mountain lions,
etc). Of course, they also have Cougars, local college football
players. Sometimes it's hard to tell which of them a given story is
about.
Heh. We have mountain lions up in the East Bay hills, but I
And the morth and west bay hills, coast (my niece lost a dog to a mountain
lion in Pescadero a couple of years ago), and south bay (I've
seen them at Santa Teresa county park and Alamden Quicksilver
county park, and at Point Bonita in the marin headlands).

We also have bobcats, which I've encountered at Santa Teresa county
park, and plenty of coyote.
Kevrob
2021-07-30 18:59:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Paul S Person
We have possums as well as raccoons. Also beavers, but those are
mostly in the parks near water. And, if IIRC what has been reported on
Nextdoor, coyotes. Not to mention the raptors.
Well, we do have raptors around here, but mostly they soar high
over the freeways, waiting for roadkill.
Here, they spend all afternoon riding the thermals in the
sunny summer afternoons. I've seen up to two dozen
turkey vultures dancing in the sky in the afternoon.
Post by Paul S Person
Over in Spokane, they occasionally have cougars (aka mountain lions,
etc). Of course, they also have Cougars, local college football
players. Sometimes it's hard to tell which of them a given story is
about.
Heh. We have mountain lions up in the East Bay hills, but I
And the morth and west bay hills, coast (my niece lost a dog to a mountain
lion in Pescadero a couple of years ago), and south bay (I've
seen them at Santa Teresa county park and Alamden Quicksilver
county park, and at Point Bonita in the marin headlands).
We also have bobcats, which I've encountered at Santa Teresa county
park, and plenty of coyote.
People are always reporting sightings of big cats around here {cougar,
mountain lion, puma, wildcat, catamount, panther...how many aliases
has this cat got?...) but they always turn out to be bobcats - and not the
ones from Quinnipiac U. {First time I heard that name it sounded like
an Irishman who needed to induce vomiting. :) } We do have coyotes.
`Yotes are everywhere. Black bear have been making a comeback.
2020 had record sightings. I wonder if that is connected to more people
being at home during the day to see them, plus the increasing deployment
of home security cameras? Yogi and Boo-Boo must love it when grocers
and Grubhub drivers drop "pic-a-nic baskets" on the front stoop or porch.
The relevant state department reported 7k + sightings in 2019, so tiny
CT was seeing our share even in "the before times."

We had a "suicide by Buick" reported this week, not far from me.

https://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Police-Bear-put-down-after-being-hit-by-car-in-16345356.php

This is a not-unusual fate for the state's deer, but drivers should
also watch for bear and moose.
--
Kevin R
a.a #2310
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-30 21:12:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Paul S Person
We have possums as well as raccoons. Also beavers, but those are
mostly in the parks near water. And, if IIRC what has been reported on
Nextdoor, coyotes. Not to mention the raptors.
Well, we do have raptors around here, but mostly they soar high
over the freeways, waiting for roadkill.
Here, they spend all afternoon riding the thermals in the
sunny summer afternoons. I've seen up to two dozen
turkey vultures dancing in the sky in the afternoon.
Post by Paul S Person
Over in Spokane, they occasionally have cougars (aka mountain lions,
etc). Of course, they also have Cougars, local college football
players. Sometimes it's hard to tell which of them a given story is
about.
Heh. We have mountain lions up in the East Bay hills, but I
And the morth and west bay hills, coast (my niece lost a dog to a mountain
lion in Pescadero a couple of years ago), and south bay (I've
seen them at Santa Teresa county park and Alamden Quicksilver
county park, and at Point Bonita in the marin headlands).
We also have bobcats, which I've encountered at Santa Teresa county
park, and plenty of coyote.
People are always reporting sightings of big cats around here {cougar,
mountain lion, puma, wildcat, catamount, panther...how many aliases
has this cat got?...) but they always turn out to be bobcats - and not the
ones from Quinnipiac U.
Awwww. I wouldn't freak out at the sight of a bobcat. They're
cute: more to the point, they're small. Display at them, they'd
run.
Post by Kevrob
`Yotes are everywhere. Black bear have been making a comeback.
2020 had record sightings. I wonder if that is connected to more people
being at home during the day to see them....
Plus lockdown keeping humans indoors. I've seen videos of
various wild and semi-wild critters invading suburbs and eating
all the flowerbeds.
Post by Kevrob
This is a not-unusual fate for the state's deer, but drivers should
also watch for bear and moose.
Not, fortunately, in the middle of Vallejo. The only wildlife
I've seen in town was that vulture scarfing roadkill in front of
my house.

In addition to which we have squirrels and scrub jays who get
into noisy fights every fall in acorn season.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
J. Clarke
2021-07-30 22:08:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Paul S Person
We have possums as well as raccoons. Also beavers, but those are
mostly in the parks near water. And, if IIRC what has been reported on
Nextdoor, coyotes. Not to mention the raptors.
Well, we do have raptors around here, but mostly they soar high
over the freeways, waiting for roadkill.
Here, they spend all afternoon riding the thermals in the
sunny summer afternoons. I've seen up to two dozen
turkey vultures dancing in the sky in the afternoon.
Post by Paul S Person
Over in Spokane, they occasionally have cougars (aka mountain lions,
etc). Of course, they also have Cougars, local college football
players. Sometimes it's hard to tell which of them a given story is
about.
Heh. We have mountain lions up in the East Bay hills, but I
And the morth and west bay hills, coast (my niece lost a dog to a mountain
lion in Pescadero a couple of years ago), and south bay (I've
seen them at Santa Teresa county park and Alamden Quicksilver
county park, and at Point Bonita in the marin headlands).
We also have bobcats, which I've encountered at Santa Teresa county
park, and plenty of coyote.
People are always reporting sightings of big cats around here {cougar,
mountain lion, puma, wildcat, catamount, panther...how many aliases
has this cat got?...) but they always turn out to be bobcats - and not the
ones from Quinnipiac U.
Awwww. I wouldn't freak out at the sight of a bobcat. They're
cute: more to the point, they're small. Display at them, they'd
run.
Post by Kevrob
`Yotes are everywhere. Black bear have been making a comeback.
2020 had record sightings. I wonder if that is connected to more people
being at home during the day to see them....
Plus lockdown keeping humans indoors. I've seen videos of
various wild and semi-wild critters invading suburbs and eating
all the flowerbeds.
Post by Kevrob
This is a not-unusual fate for the state's deer, but drivers should
also watch for bear and moose.
Not, fortunately, in the middle of Vallejo. The only wildlife
I've seen in town was that vulture scarfing roadkill in front of
my house.
In addition to which we have squirrels and scrub jays who get
into noisy fights every fall in acorn season.
I have occasionally seen deer in the back yard. For a while a fox was
living in the shed. There are rabbits in residence--I don't know
where they live but in the morning they're usually out in the front
yard silflaying clover. I regularly see turkeys when out and about
but non have visited me of which I am aware. One did descent in front
of me about a block away from here though--that's a driving
emergency--the wings block the view and if you hit the thing it will
do damage. Speaking of which, I was driving along one night and an
owl came out of nowhere across the road--did 1500 bucks worth of
damage to the Jeep. I was unable to find the owl--I hope it didn't
suffer.
J. Clarke
2021-07-30 22:00:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Paul S Person
We have possums as well as raccoons. Also beavers, but those are
mostly in the parks near water. And, if IIRC what has been reported on
Nextdoor, coyotes. Not to mention the raptors.
Well, we do have raptors around here, but mostly they soar high
over the freeways, waiting for roadkill.
Here, they spend all afternoon riding the thermals in the
sunny summer afternoons. I've seen up to two dozen
turkey vultures dancing in the sky in the afternoon.
Post by Paul S Person
Over in Spokane, they occasionally have cougars (aka mountain lions,
etc). Of course, they also have Cougars, local college football
players. Sometimes it's hard to tell which of them a given story is
about.
Heh. We have mountain lions up in the East Bay hills, but I
And the morth and west bay hills, coast (my niece lost a dog to a mountain
lion in Pescadero a couple of years ago), and south bay (I've
seen them at Santa Teresa county park and Alamden Quicksilver
county park, and at Point Bonita in the marin headlands).
We also have bobcats, which I've encountered at Santa Teresa county
park, and plenty of coyote.
People are always reporting sightings of big cats around here {cougar,
mountain lion, puma, wildcat, catamount, panther...how many aliases
has this cat got?...) but they always turn out to be bobcats - and not the
ones from Quinnipiac U. {First time I heard that name it sounded like
an Irishman who needed to induce vomiting. :) } We do have coyotes.
`Yotes are everywhere. Black bear have been making a comeback.
2020 had record sightings. I wonder if that is connected to more people
being at home during the day to see them, plus the increasing deployment
of home security cameras? Yogi and Boo-Boo must love it when grocers
and Grubhub drivers drop "pic-a-nic baskets" on the front stoop or porch.
The relevant state department reported 7k + sightings in 2019, so tiny
CT was seeing our share even in "the before times."
We had a "suicide by Buick" reported this week, not far from me.
https://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Police-Bear-put-down-after-being-hit-by-car-in-16345356.php
This is a not-unusual fate for the state's deer, but drivers should
also watch for bear and moose.
That's one way to deal with the troublesome bears that we are not
allowed to shoot.

All of our legislators should be made it sit in a cage with a hungry
bear for 48 hours. The ones who survive might have a more reasonable
attitude toward managing the bear population.
Paul S Person
2021-07-31 16:10:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
We have possums as well as raccoons. Also beavers, but those are
mostly in the parks near water. And, if IIRC what has been reported on
Nextdoor, coyotes. Not to mention the raptors.
Well, we do have raptors around here, but mostly they soar high
over the freeways, waiting for roadkill.
But I did meet one on the street once. Somebody had run over a
squirrel (what the squirrel was doing on the street rather than
the overhead wires, I'll never know), and a vulture had landed on
the street to eat it.
Perhaps it was a ground squirrel.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-31 19:01:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
We have possums as well as raccoons. Also beavers, but those are
mostly in the parks near water. And, if IIRC what has been reported on
Nextdoor, coyotes. Not to mention the raptors.
Well, we do have raptors around here, but mostly they soar high
over the freeways, waiting for roadkill.
But I did meet one on the street once. Somebody had run over a
squirrel (what the squirrel was doing on the street rather than
the overhead wires, I'll never know), and a vulture had landed on
the street to eat it.
Perhaps it was a ground squirrel.
Can't have been. It was a western fox squirrel with golden-brown
fur (the vulture had not, at that point, tried to consume the
tail).

This article complains that fox squirrels are replacing western
grey squirrels in California.

https://baynature.org/2019/05/28/are-fox-squirrels-replacing-gray-squirrels-in-california/

The middle picture is an example of the golden-brown fox squirrel
such as the vulture was eating.

I can only say that I've lived in California all my life and
never seen a grey squirrel.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Scott Lurndal
2021-07-31 21:07:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
This article complains that fox squirrels are replacing western
grey squirrels in California.
https://baynature.org/2019/05/28/are-fox-squirrels-replacing-gray-squirrels-in-california/
The middle picture is an example of the golden-brown fox squirrel
such as the vulture was eating.
I can only say that I've lived in California all my life and
never seen a grey squirrel.
I have, in San Jose, along with black ones and the occasional
red one. I had a mature Great Valley Oak, which attracted
the treerats. And kept the dog running along the fence
the squirrels used as a freeway.
pete...@gmail.com
2021-07-31 22:52:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
This article complains that fox squirrels are replacing western
grey squirrels in California.
https://baynature.org/2019/05/28/are-fox-squirrels-replacing-gray-squirrels-in-california/
The middle picture is an example of the golden-brown fox squirrel
such as the vulture was eating.
I can only say that I've lived in California all my life and
never seen a grey squirrel.
I have, in San Jose, along with black ones and the occasional
red one. I had a mature Great Valley Oak, which attracted
the treerats. And kept the dog running along the fence
the squirrels used as a freeway.
In the UK, American Grey Squirrels have been pushing out the native Eurasian
Red Squirrel for decades. The red ones are the classic children's story version.

https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/trees-woods-and-wildlife/animals/mammals/red-squirrel/

Pt
J. Clarke
2021-08-01 02:56:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
This article complains that fox squirrels are replacing western
grey squirrels in California.
https://baynature.org/2019/05/28/are-fox-squirrels-replacing-gray-squirrels-in-california/
The middle picture is an example of the golden-brown fox squirrel
such as the vulture was eating.
I can only say that I've lived in California all my life and
never seen a grey squirrel.
I have, in San Jose, along with black ones and the occasional
red one. I had a mature Great Valley Oak, which attracted
the treerats. And kept the dog running along the fence
the squirrels used as a freeway.
In the UK, American Grey Squirrels have been pushing out the native Eurasian
Red Squirrel for decades. The red ones are the classic children's story version.
https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/trees-woods-and-wildlife/animals/mammals/red-squirrel/
Which leads me to wonder what manner of squirrel Hammy might be.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-01 01:03:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
This article complains that fox squirrels are replacing western
grey squirrels in California.
https://baynature.org/2019/05/28/are-fox-squirrels-replacing-gray-squirrels-in-california/
The middle picture is an example of the golden-brown fox squirrel
such as the vulture was eating.
I can only say that I've lived in California all my life and
never seen a grey squirrel.
I have, in San Jose, along with black ones and the occasional
red one. I had a mature Great Valley Oak, which attracted
the treerats. And kept the dog running along the fence
the squirrels used as a freeway.
The house south of us has a gigantic, I-don't-know-how-old scrub
oak in its yard. It provides the squirrels and jays lots of
acorns to fight over, and us with some welcome shade.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2021-08-01 03:14:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
This article complains that fox squirrels are replacing western
grey squirrels in California.
https://baynature.org/2019/05/28/are-fox-squirrels-replacing-gray-squirrels-in-california/
The middle picture is an example of the golden-brown fox squirrel
such as the vulture was eating.
I can only say that I've lived in California all my life and
never seen a grey squirrel.
I have, in San Jose, along with black ones and the occasional
red one. I had a mature Great Valley Oak, which attracted
the treerats. And kept the dog running along the fence
the squirrels used as a freeway.
The house south of us has a gigantic, I-don't-know-how-old scrub
oak in its yard. It provides the squirrels and jays lots of
acorns to fight over, and us with some welcome shade.
--
Since, when we aren't having pandemics, I visit my sisters on
Roosevelt Island, in the East River between Manhattan and
Queens, which is one of the two New York boroughs on Long
Island. Hence, I am familiar with the Mutant Squirrels of Gotham.

https://untappedcities.com/2016/12/12/the-top-10-secrets-of-city-hall-park-in-nyc/6/

The link says the black tree rats get that way from a recessive gene.
--
Kevin R
J. Clarke
2021-08-01 02:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
We have possums as well as raccoons. Also beavers, but those are
mostly in the parks near water. And, if IIRC what has been reported on
Nextdoor, coyotes. Not to mention the raptors.
Well, we do have raptors around here, but mostly they soar high
over the freeways, waiting for roadkill.
But I did meet one on the street once. Somebody had run over a
squirrel (what the squirrel was doing on the street rather than
the overhead wires, I'll never know), and a vulture had landed on
the street to eat it.
Perhaps it was a ground squirrel.
Can't have been. It was a western fox squirrel with golden-brown
fur (the vulture had not, at that point, tried to consume the
tail).
This article complains that fox squirrels are replacing western
grey squirrels in California.
https://baynature.org/2019/05/28/are-fox-squirrels-replacing-gray-squirrels-in-california/
The middle picture is an example of the golden-brown fox squirrel
such as the vulture was eating.
I can only say that I've lived in California all my life and
never seen a grey squirrel.
In Florida I saw a fox squirrel once, one of the neighbors had one in
a cage for some reason.

In CT I'm seeing the black squirrels with increasing frequency. Given
that they are moving down from Canada I'm having trouble pinning that
one on "global warming".
Lynn McGuire
2021-08-03 02:40:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
We have possums as well as raccoons. Also beavers, but those are
mostly in the parks near water. And, if IIRC what has been reported on
Nextdoor, coyotes. Not to mention the raptors.
Well, we do have raptors around here, but mostly they soar high
over the freeways, waiting for roadkill.
But I did meet one on the street once. Somebody had run over a
squirrel (what the squirrel was doing on the street rather than
the overhead wires, I'll never know), and a vulture had landed on
the street to eat it.
Perhaps it was a ground squirrel.
Can't have been. It was a western fox squirrel with golden-brown
fur (the vulture had not, at that point, tried to consume the
tail).
This article complains that fox squirrels are replacing western
grey squirrels in California.
https://baynature.org/2019/05/28/are-fox-squirrels-replacing-gray-squirrels-in-california/
The middle picture is an example of the golden-brown fox squirrel
such as the vulture was eating.
I can only say that I've lived in California all my life and
never seen a grey squirrel.
In Florida I saw a fox squirrel once, one of the neighbors had one in
a cage for some reason.
In CT I'm seeing the black squirrels with increasing frequency. Given
that they are moving down from Canada I'm having trouble pinning that
one on "global warming".
Southern expansion of the Northern tribes. A classic move, be careful
not to get caught in the turf battles.

Lynn
Jack Bohn
2021-08-03 13:46:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
This article complains that fox squirrels are replacing western
grey squirrels in California.
https://baynature.org/2019/05/28/are-fox-squirrels-replacing-gray-squirrels-in-california/
The middle picture is an example of the golden-brown fox squirrel
such as the vulture was eating.
I can only say that I've lived in California all my life and
never seen a grey squirrel.
In Florida I saw a fox squirrel once, one of the neighbors had one in
a cage for some reason.
In CT I'm seeing the black squirrels with increasing frequency. Given
that they are moving down from Canada I'm having trouble pinning that
one on "global warming".
About a decade ago we started noticing black squirrels in a neighborhood a mile or so north, this year is the first I've seen some around my house. Coming down from Canada, you say? Well, I'm not going to try to figure an average migration rate from my one sample.
--
-Jack
Robert Carnegie
2021-08-01 08:25:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
We have possums as well as raccoons. Also beavers, but those are
mostly in the parks near water. And, if IIRC what has been reported on
Nextdoor, coyotes. Not to mention the raptors.
Well, we do have raptors around here, but mostly they soar high
over the freeways, waiting for roadkill.
But I did meet one on the street once. Somebody had run over a
squirrel (what the squirrel was doing on the street rather than
the overhead wires, I'll never know), and a vulture had landed on
the street to eat it.
Perhaps it was a ground squirrel.
No, just squashed.

Oh, that's a thing? Okay.
Thomas Koenig
2021-07-29 05:28:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
A week ago, when I went out to take my garbage bin (which the
collectors leave sitting, uncovered, on the lid) I saw ... water ...
inside!
I wouldn't say it rained, but "sprinkled" might not be unreasonable.
Some is better than none, and it's also better than way too much.
Weather page is still saying Vallejo's going to have a high of 83
today. At 11 AM, it's just reached 70.
--
[Vent]
People who let garbage cans/bins or their lids collect standing
water.
Sounds like a severe design flaw on the lids. What we have over
here looks like (didn't find one from Germany, this is England)
Loading Image...
so water cannot accumulate on the top.
Kevrob
2021-07-29 08:33:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
A week ago, when I went out to take my garbage bin (which the
collectors leave sitting, uncovered, on the lid) I saw ... water ...
inside!
I wouldn't say it rained, but "sprinkled" might not be unreasonable.
Some is better than none, and it's also better than way too much.
Weather page is still saying Vallejo's going to have a high of 83
today. At 11 AM, it's just reached 70.
--
[Vent]
People who let garbage cans/bins or their lids collect standing
water.
Sounds like a severe design flaw on the lids. What we have over
here looks like (didn't find one from Germany, this is England)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_container#/media/File:Bin.JPG
so water cannot accumulate on the top.
Our side of the building has one like that, and another with a round,
fully removable lid. The round one looks more like this:

Loading Image...

If one replaces the lid, water won't accumulate. If you leave it on the
ground, top side up, it will.
--
Kevin R
Paul S Person
2021-07-29 15:43:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
A week ago, when I went out to take my garbage bin (which the
collectors leave sitting, uncovered, on the lid) I saw ... water ...
inside!
I wouldn't say it rained, but "sprinkled" might not be unreasonable.
Some is better than none, and it's also better than way too much.
Weather page is still saying Vallejo's going to have a high of 83
today. At 11 AM, it's just reached 70.
--
[Vent]
People who let garbage cans/bins or their lids collect standing
water. It encourages the growth of mosquitos! I'd prefer the
bins be stood on end, with the lid set on what is normally the
bottom, and the top of the lid facing the sky. Water will run off
from that set-up onto ground or pavement. It also discourages
passing folks from dropping who-knows-what in your empty
container, once the trash has been collected. The landlord
sends someone out to move the bins the day before "trash
day," and that fellow leaves the lids wherever. I'd just as soon
handle that chore myself, but apparently some neighbors can't
be trusted to remember that it is Tuesday, or just aren't around
to roll the cans out.
It's a little thing, but we need neither EEE* nor Zika added to COVID
on our list of troubles.
* https://www.cdc.gov/easternequineencephalitis/index.html
[/Vent}
Sadly, while I am /required/ (under pain of being charged for an
"extra pickup") to have the top /firmly/ on the bin (so it is not
over-stuffed), the people who collect it appear to be free to do
pretty much what they like (in terms of how they leave the bin and its
lid).

And what they like /now/ is to put the lid, face-up, on the parking
strip and then the empty bin on top if it. They /used/ to leave the
lid standing up inside the bin.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
William Hyde
2021-07-26 21:36:34 UTC
Permalink
Five Classic SFF Novels About Environmental Disaster
https://www.tor.com/2021/07/26/five-classic-sff-novels-about-environmental-disaster/
Surprised you didn't include Ballard - he did at least 4 of these.
I am astoundingly poorly read in Ballard.
Well, you can skip the first one, "The Wind from Nowhere".

Ballard was trapped in a job that didn't leave him time to write, so he wrote this
fantasy novel in his vacation of eleven days. Naturally it's not as well thought out
as his others, and he himself later said "The wind thing wasn't that interesting"
But it paid enough that he could write full time.

"The Drowned World" is vastly better, basically SF (the sun gets a wee bit warmer, and
given how little we knew about stars then, it wasn't that implausible). The ending
confused his New York publisher ("shouldn't it be the reverse?"), but it's not
really a new wave story.

"The Drought" is also SF. Pollution causes a film of junk to form atop the ocean,
severely restricting evaporation. More of a new wave feel than it's predecessor. As a
kid I had no idea what the ending meant.

"The Crystal World". What happens with a very slow moving version, more or less, of Ice-9.
I haven't seen a copy in decades and wonder how it would read now. As a kid I
had no idea what the novel was really about, but I got lost in Ballard's imagery.

William Hyde
Paul S Person
2021-07-27 16:25:30 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 26 Jul 2021 14:36:34 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Five Classic SFF Novels About Environmental Disaster
https://www.tor.com/2021/07/26/five-classic-sff-novels-about-environmental-disaster/
Surprised you didn't include Ballard - he did at least 4 of these.
I am astoundingly poorly read in Ballard.
Well, you can skip the first one, "The Wind from Nowhere".
Ballard was trapped in a job that didn't leave him time to write, so he wrote this
fantasy novel in his vacation of eleven days. Naturally it's not as well thought out
as his others, and he himself later said "The wind thing wasn't that interesting"
But it paid enough that he could write full time.
"The Drowned World" is vastly better, basically SF (the sun gets a wee bit warmer, and
given how little we knew about stars then, it wasn't that implausible). The ending
confused his New York publisher ("shouldn't it be the reverse?"), but it's not
really a new wave story.
"The Drought" is also SF. Pollution causes a film of junk to form atop the ocean,
severely restricting evaporation. More of a new wave feel than it's predecessor. As a
kid I had no idea what the ending meant.
"The Crystal World". What happens with a very slow moving version, more or less, of Ice-9.
I haven't seen a copy in decades and wonder how it would read now. As a kid I
had no idea what the novel was really about, but I got lost in Ballard's imagery.
Is that the one that I first encountered as a novellette set in
Africa, and then as a novel set in Florida? Telling the same story
both times?

I was not amused -- once was quite enough, thank you very much.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
William Hyde
2021-07-27 20:12:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 26 Jul 2021 14:36:34 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Five Classic SFF Novels About Environmental Disaster
https://www.tor.com/2021/07/26/five-classic-sff-novels-about-environmental-disaster/
Surprised you didn't include Ballard - he did at least 4 of these.
I am astoundingly poorly read in Ballard.
Well, you can skip the first one, "The Wind from Nowhere".
Ballard was trapped in a job that didn't leave him time to write, so he wrote this
fantasy novel in his vacation of eleven days. Naturally it's not as well thought out
as his others, and he himself later said "The wind thing wasn't that interesting"
But it paid enough that he could write full time.
"The Drowned World" is vastly better, basically SF (the sun gets a wee bit warmer, and
given how little we knew about stars then, it wasn't that implausible). The ending
confused his New York publisher ("shouldn't it be the reverse?"), but it's not
really a new wave story.
"The Drought" is also SF. Pollution causes a film of junk to form atop the ocean,
severely restricting evaporation. More of a new wave feel than it's predecessor. As a
kid I had no idea what the ending meant.
"The Crystal World". What happens with a very slow moving version, more or less, of Ice-9.
I haven't seen a copy in decades and wonder how it would read now. As a kid I
had no idea what the novel was really about, but I got lost in Ballard's imagery.
Is that the one that I first encountered as a novellette set in
Africa, and then as a novel set in Florida? Telling the same story
both times?
As far as I can recall, I've only read a novel set in Africa. But then, rewriting a novelette or
short story into a novel is common practice in SF. 99% as common would be people saying
"The novelette/short story was better!).

William Hyde
Paul S Person
2021-07-28 16:20:31 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 13:12:49 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 26 Jul 2021 14:36:34 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Five Classic SFF Novels About Environmental Disaster
https://www.tor.com/2021/07/26/five-classic-sff-novels-about-environmental-disaster/
Surprised you didn't include Ballard - he did at least 4 of these.
I am astoundingly poorly read in Ballard.
Well, you can skip the first one, "The Wind from Nowhere".
Ballard was trapped in a job that didn't leave him time to write, so he wrote this
fantasy novel in his vacation of eleven days. Naturally it's not as well thought out
as his others, and he himself later said "The wind thing wasn't that interesting"
But it paid enough that he could write full time.
"The Drowned World" is vastly better, basically SF (the sun gets a wee bit warmer, and
given how little we knew about stars then, it wasn't that implausible). The ending
confused his New York publisher ("shouldn't it be the reverse?"), but it's not
really a new wave story.
"The Drought" is also SF. Pollution causes a film of junk to form atop the ocean,
severely restricting evaporation. More of a new wave feel than it's predecessor. As a
kid I had no idea what the ending meant.
"The Crystal World". What happens with a very slow moving version, more or less, of Ice-9.
I haven't seen a copy in decades and wonder how it would read now. As a kid I
had no idea what the novel was really about, but I got lost in Ballard's imagery.
Is that the one that I first encountered as a novellette set in
Africa, and then as a novel set in Florida? Telling the same story
both times?
As far as I can recall, I've only read a novel set in Africa. But then, rewriting a novelette or
short story into a novel is common practice in SF. 99% as common would be people saying
"The novelette/short story was better!).
Well, it was certainly /shorter/!

I didn't really find it all that good in either form. In fact, I think
I purchased the one set in Florida in the hopes that it would be
different enough to provide additional information about what was
going on.

I wish I could say that I had some idea "what is was about", but for
all I know it was about the author's ability to mystify his readers.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
William Hyde
2021-07-28 22:46:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 13:12:49 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 26 Jul 2021 14:36:34 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Five Classic SFF Novels About Environmental Disaster
https://www.tor.com/2021/07/26/five-classic-sff-novels-about-environmental-disaster/
Surprised you didn't include Ballard - he did at least 4 of these.
I am astoundingly poorly read in Ballard.
Well, you can skip the first one, "The Wind from Nowhere".
Ballard was trapped in a job that didn't leave him time to write, so he wrote this
fantasy novel in his vacation of eleven days. Naturally it's not as well thought out
as his others, and he himself later said "The wind thing wasn't that interesting"
But it paid enough that he could write full time.
"The Drowned World" is vastly better, basically SF (the sun gets a wee bit warmer, and
given how little we knew about stars then, it wasn't that implausible). The ending
confused his New York publisher ("shouldn't it be the reverse?"), but it's not
really a new wave story.
"The Drought" is also SF. Pollution causes a film of junk to form atop the ocean,
severely restricting evaporation. More of a new wave feel than it's predecessor. As a
kid I had no idea what the ending meant.
"The Crystal World". What happens with a very slow moving version, more or less, of Ice-9.
I haven't seen a copy in decades and wonder how it would read now. As a kid I
had no idea what the novel was really about, but I got lost in Ballard's imagery.
Is that the one that I first encountered as a novellette set in
Africa, and then as a novel set in Florida? Telling the same story
both times?
As far as I can recall, I've only read a novel set in Africa. But then, rewriting a novelette or
short story into a novel is common practice in SF. 99% as common would be people saying
"The novelette/short story was better!).
Well, it was certainly /shorter/!
I didn't really find it all that good in either form. In fact, I think
I purchased the one set in Florida in the hopes that it would be
different enough to provide additional information about what was
going on.
I wish I could say that I had some idea "what is was about", but for
all I know it was about the author's ability to mystify his readers.
We actually know a lot about Ballard. He wasn't trying for the bestseller
lists (though he got there in the end) but he certainly wasn't trying to
trick or fool his readers. However, he wouldn't baby them.

As a widower with three kids, he needed his writing income. It wasn't in
him to write space opera, but his work found an audience, and he gave
them his best. Except in that first novel, perhaps.

Sometimes I really like his work, other times my reaction is similar
to yours. I suspect that if I reread "The crystal world" today I still
wouldn't get it.

A lot of things (but perhaps not TCW) became clearer when I read
"Empire of the Sun".


William Hyde
Lynn McGuire
2021-07-26 23:01:51 UTC
Permalink
Five Classic SFF Novels About Environmental Disaster
https://www.tor.com/2021/07/26/five-classic-sff-novels-about-environmental-disaster/
Zero for five here.

I might include "Blind Waves" by Steven Gould here. Might since it was
published in 2000, not a classic.
https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Waves-Steven-Gould/dp/0312864450/

Lynn
William Hyde
2021-07-26 23:09:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Five Classic SFF Novels About Environmental Disaster
https://www.tor.com/2021/07/26/five-classic-sff-novels-about-environmental-disaster/
Zero for five here.
I think "The Kraken Wakes" is one you will enjoy. And the Niven, if you like fantasy
and/or Niven.

William Hyde
Lynn McGuire
2021-07-26 23:25:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by Lynn McGuire
Five Classic SFF Novels About Environmental Disaster
https://www.tor.com/2021/07/26/five-classic-sff-novels-about-environmental-disaster/
Zero for five here.
I think "The Kraken Wakes" is one you will enjoy. And the Niven, if you like fantasy
and/or Niven.
William Hyde
I love Niven. I have three XXXXX five of his books in my SBR right now.

Lynn
pete...@gmail.com
2021-07-27 04:01:40 UTC
Permalink
Five Classic SFF Novels About Environmental Disaster
https://www.tor.com/2021/07/26/five-classic-sff-novels-about-environmental-disaster/
Another 'cozy catastrophe' author you skipped is John Christopher. Aside from the 'Tripods'
(YA alien invasion) series, also wrote 'A Wrinkle in the Skin' (vast earthquake), 'A Death of Grass'
(What it says), and "The World in Winter" (ice age descends on Britain).

Pt
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