Discussion:
"SpaceX loses another Starship prototype in massive explosion"
(too old to reply)
Lynn McGuire
2020-05-30 01:48:55 UTC
Permalink
"SpaceX loses another Starship prototype in massive explosion"

https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/29/21274931/spacex-starship-prototype-rocket-explosion-static-fire-test

"Another Starship bites the dust"

SpaceX is making a new Starship and blowing up a few on the way there.

Hat tip to:
http://drudgereport.com/

Lynn
J. Clarke
2020-05-30 01:55:34 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 29 May 2020 20:48:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
"SpaceX loses another Starship prototype in massive explosion"
https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/29/21274931/spacex-starship-prototype-rocket-explosion-static-fire-test
"Another Starship bites the dust"
SpaceX is making a new Starship and blowing up a few on the way there.
http://drudgereport.com/
Yep. Build it break it figure out why fix it. Agile applied to
spacecraft design. If this was a NASA funded project they could never
do it that way.
Mike Van Pelt
2020-06-01 18:06:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 29 May 2020 20:48:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
SpaceX is making a new Starship and blowing up a few on the way there.
Yep. Build it break it figure out why fix it. Agile applied to
spacecraft design. If this was a NASA funded project they could never
do it that way.
I recall reading one of the rocketry pioneers saying
something to the effect "If you aren't blowing stuff
up, you aren't learning anything."
--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-06-01 18:32:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 29 May 2020 20:48:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
SpaceX is making a new Starship and blowing up a few on the way there.
Yep. Build it break it figure out why fix it. Agile applied to
spacecraft design. If this was a NASA funded project they could never
do it that way.
I recall reading one of the rocketry pioneers saying
something to the effect "If you aren't blowing stuff
up, you aren't learning anything."
Well, it's true. Goddard maybe? Cat knows there's lots of
footage of one of his experimental rockets falling down and going
boom. And Goddard walking away from the wreckage, all his body
language expressing, "Back to the drawing board."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Default User
2020-06-02 05:46:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Well, it's true. Goddard maybe? Cat knows there's lots of
footage of one of his experimental rockets falling down and going
boom.
"Cat"? The big chonky-boi in the sky?


Brian
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-06-02 14:38:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Default User
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Well, it's true. Goddard maybe? Cat knows there's lots of
footage of one of his experimental rockets falling down and going
boom.
"Cat"? The big chonky-boi in the sky?
Usually visualized as looking down from a hole in the ceiling.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Lynn McGuire
2020-06-01 18:52:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 29 May 2020 20:48:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
SpaceX is making a new Starship and blowing up a few on the way there.
Yep. Build it break it figure out why fix it. Agile applied to
spacecraft design. If this was a NASA funded project they could never
do it that way.
I recall reading one of the rocketry pioneers saying
something to the effect "If you aren't blowing stuff
up, you aren't learning anything."
True dat. Very true.

I've broken lots of stuff over the years. My pinnacle was a 2,000,000
hp steam boiler back in 1984. My boss told me to run her wide open and
I opened the governor all the way for a two hour test. One hour later,
the superheater tubes started melting. They were 16 years old and shot
anyway, we just did not know it. We knew it that night when four of
them cut loose. We got in to her the next evening, every single tube
looked like spaghetti. We cut off the leaking tubes and ran her derated
for six months until the new tubes came in and we spent two months
installing them.

Lynn
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-06-01 19:15:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 29 May 2020 20:48:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
SpaceX is making a new Starship and blowing up a few on the way there.
Yep. Build it break it figure out why fix it. Agile applied to
spacecraft design. If this was a NASA funded project they could never
do it that way.
I recall reading one of the rocketry pioneers saying
something to the effect "If you aren't blowing stuff
up, you aren't learning anything."
True dat. Very true.
I've broken lots of stuff over the years. My pinnacle was a 2,000,000
hp steam boiler back in 1984. My boss told me to run her wide open and
I opened the governor all the way for a two hour test. One hour later,
the superheater tubes started melting. They were 16 years old and shot
anyway, we just did not know it. We knew it that night when four of
them cut loose. We got in to her the next evening, every single tube
looked like spaghetti. We cut off the leaking tubes and ran her derated
for six months until the new tubes came in and we spent two months
installing them.
I trust nobody got hurt?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Lynn McGuire
2020-06-04 04:00:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 29 May 2020 20:48:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
SpaceX is making a new Starship and blowing up a few on the way there.
Yep. Build it break it figure out why fix it. Agile applied to
spacecraft design. If this was a NASA funded project they could never
do it that way.
I recall reading one of the rocketry pioneers saying
something to the effect "If you aren't blowing stuff
up, you aren't learning anything."
True dat. Very true.
I've broken lots of stuff over the years. My pinnacle was a 2,000,000
hp steam boiler back in 1984. My boss told me to run her wide open and
I opened the governor all the way for a two hour test. One hour later,
the superheater tubes started melting. They were 16 years old and shot
anyway, we just did not know it. We knew it that night when four of
them cut loose. We got in to her the next evening, every single tube
looked like spaghetti. We cut off the leaking tubes and ran her derated
for six months until the new tubes came in and we spent two months
installing them.
I trust nobody got hurt?
Nope, just our pride. All the steam leakage was in the steam boiler
firebox.

Lynn
J. Clarke
2020-06-01 20:34:33 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 13:52:26 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 29 May 2020 20:48:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
SpaceX is making a new Starship and blowing up a few on the way there.
Yep. Build it break it figure out why fix it. Agile applied to
spacecraft design. If this was a NASA funded project they could never
do it that way.
I recall reading one of the rocketry pioneers saying
something to the effect "If you aren't blowing stuff
up, you aren't learning anything."
True dat. Very true.
I've broken lots of stuff over the years. My pinnacle was a 2,000,000
hp steam boiler back in 1984. My boss told me to run her wide open and
I opened the governor all the way for a two hour test. One hour later,
the superheater tubes started melting. They were 16 years old and shot
anyway, we just did not know it. We knew it that night when four of
them cut loose. We got in to her the next evening, every single tube
looked like spaghetti. We cut off the leaking tubes and ran her derated
for six months until the new tubes came in and we spent two months
installing them.
Well at least you didn't blow the roof off of a nuclear power plant.
Lynn McGuire
2020-06-04 04:01:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 13:52:26 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 29 May 2020 20:48:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
SpaceX is making a new Starship and blowing up a few on the way there.
Yep. Build it break it figure out why fix it. Agile applied to
spacecraft design. If this was a NASA funded project they could never
do it that way.
I recall reading one of the rocketry pioneers saying
something to the effect "If you aren't blowing stuff
up, you aren't learning anything."
True dat. Very true.
I've broken lots of stuff over the years. My pinnacle was a 2,000,000
hp steam boiler back in 1984. My boss told me to run her wide open and
I opened the governor all the way for a two hour test. One hour later,
the superheater tubes started melting. They were 16 years old and shot
anyway, we just did not know it. We knew it that night when four of
them cut loose. We got in to her the next evening, every single tube
looked like spaghetti. We cut off the leaking tubes and ran her derated
for six months until the new tubes came in and we spent two months
installing them.
Well at least you didn't blow the roof off of a nuclear power plant.
I turned down the opportunity, thank goodness.

Lynn
Dimensional Traveler
2020-06-01 19:44:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 29 May 2020 20:48:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
SpaceX is making a new Starship and blowing up a few on the way there.
Yep. Build it break it figure out why fix it. Agile applied to
spacecraft design. If this was a NASA funded project they could never
do it that way.
I recall reading one of the rocketry pioneers saying
something to the effect "If you aren't blowing stuff
up, you aren't learning anything."
Musk has said a variation on that.
--
<to be filled in at a later date>
Lynn McGuire
2020-06-04 04:02:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 29 May 2020 20:48:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
SpaceX is making a new Starship and blowing up a few on the way there.
Yep.  Build it break it figure out why fix it.  Agile applied to
spacecraft design.  If this was a NASA funded project they could never
do it that way.
I recall reading one of the rocketry pioneers saying
something to the effect "If you aren't blowing stuff
up, you aren't learning anything."
Musk has said a variation on that.
Steal from the best !

Lynn
J. Clarke
2020-06-04 08:32:47 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 23:02:01 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 29 May 2020 20:48:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
SpaceX is making a new Starship and blowing up a few on the way there.
Yep.  Build it break it figure out why fix it.  Agile applied to
spacecraft design.  If this was a NASA funded project they could never
do it that way.
I recall reading one of the rocketry pioneers saying
something to the effect "If you aren't blowing stuff
up, you aren't learning anything."
Musk has said a variation on that.
Steal from the best !
But please to call it . . . research.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Lynn
Kevrob
2020-06-04 11:35:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 29 May 2020 20:48:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
SpaceX is making a new Starship and blowing up a few on the way there.
Yep.  Build it break it figure out why fix it.  Agile applied to
spacecraft design.  If this was a NASA funded project they could never
do it that way.
I recall reading one of the rocketry pioneers saying
something to the effect "If you aren't blowing stuff
up, you aren't learning anything."
Musk has said a variation on that.
Steal from the best !
Lynn
Wednesday night's's Falcon 9 launch, ith depoyment of
Starlink satellites went off well.



https://www.spacex.com/launches/

Kevin R
Lynn McGuire
2020-06-04 18:34:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 29 May 2020 20:48:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
SpaceX is making a new Starship and blowing up a few on the way there.
Yep.  Build it break it figure out why fix it.  Agile applied to
spacecraft design.  If this was a NASA funded project they could never
do it that way.
I recall reading one of the rocketry pioneers saying
something to the effect "If you aren't blowing stuff
up, you aren't learning anything."
Musk has said a variation on that.
Steal from the best !
Lynn
Wednesday night's's Falcon 9 launch, ith depoyment of
Starlink satellites went off well.
http://youtu.be/y4xBFHjkUvw
https://www.spacex.com/launches/
Kevin R
Only 41,500 to go !

"On 15 October 2019, the U.S. Federal Communications Commission
submitted filings to the International Telecommunication Union on
SpaceX's behalf to arrange spectrum for 30,000 additional Starlink
satellites to supplement the 12,000 Starlink satellites already approved
by the FCC."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlink

Lynn
Torbjorn Lindgren
2020-06-07 00:07:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
Wednesday night's's Falcon 9 launch, ith depoyment of
Starlink satellites went off well.
[...]
Post by Lynn McGuire
Only 41,500 to go !
"On 15 October 2019, the U.S. Federal Communications Commission
submitted filings to the International Telecommunication Union on
SpaceX's behalf to arrange spectrum for 30,000 additional Starlink
satellites to supplement the 12,000 Starlink satellites already approved
by the FCC."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlink
They need to do a LOT of launches even for the 12k satellites in Phase
I and II, all the approvals includes specific time limits on when
50%/100% need to be launched[1] to avoid people just sitting on
frequencies and satellite orbits.

Looks like the additional 30k is really 20 filings for 1500 satellites
each, I'm wondering if that may give them more flexibility on only
choosing to go forward with some of these, the 30k additional
satellites is probably not viable without a functioning Starship (or
if Starlink is a smash hit). I don't think the timer has even started
on those ones yet.

These time limits result in this (current) plan:
Starlink 7 launched on June 4, 2020
Starlink 8 launch: NET June 12, 2020
Starlink 9 launch: NET June 24, 2020

NET stands for "Not Earlier Than", IIRC for the Starlink 8/9 the NET
dates are based on "marine hazard zones" paperwork SpaceX had to file
(IE safety exclusion zones near the launch and near the drone ship).

Note that the first Starlink launch was "Starlink Demo" with 60 v0.9
satellites, so the "Starlink 7" launch was actually the 8th Starlink
launch, even if it's the 7th with the v1.0 model of satellites... Yes,
the v0.9 satellites will be used in the constellation.
Robert Carnegie
2020-06-07 15:07:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
Wednesday night's's Falcon 9 launch, ith depoyment of
Starlink satellites went off well.
[...]
Post by Lynn McGuire
Only 41,500 to go !
"On 15 October 2019, the U.S. Federal Communications Commission
submitted filings to the International Telecommunication Union on
SpaceX's behalf to arrange spectrum for 30,000 additional Starlink
satellites to supplement the 12,000 Starlink satellites already approved
by the FCC."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlink
They need to do a LOT of launches even for the 12k satellites in Phase
I and II, all the approvals includes specific time limits on when
50%/100% need to be launched[1] to avoid people just sitting on
frequencies and satellite orbits.
Looks like the additional 30k is really 20 filings for 1500 satellites
each, I'm wondering if that may give them more flexibility on only
choosing to go forward with some of these, the 30k additional
satellites is probably not viable without a functioning Starship (or
if Starlink is a smash hit). I don't think the timer has even started
on those ones yet.
Starlink 7 launched on June 4, 2020
Starlink 8 launch: NET June 12, 2020
Starlink 9 launch: NET June 24, 2020
NET stands for "Not Earlier Than", IIRC for the Starlink 8/9 the NET
dates are based on "marine hazard zones" paperwork SpaceX had to file
(IE safety exclusion zones near the launch and near the drone ship).
Note that the first Starlink launch was "Starlink Demo" with 60 v0.9
satellites, so the "Starlink 7" launch was actually the 8th Starlink
launch, even if it's the 7th with the v1.0 model of satellites... Yes,
the v0.9 satellites will be used in the constellation.
Wouldn't the version number be point incremented for
the ones that supposedly are less of a nuisance to astronomers, which I thought these were or...?
Oh - mostly not.
Torbjorn Lindgren
2020-06-07 17:34:22 UTC
Permalink
Wouldn't the version number be point incremented for the ones that
supposedly are less of a nuisance to astronomers, which I thought
these were or...?
Oh - mostly not.
It's quite likely there's internal difference and revision numbers
we're not aware of, it's not like SpaceX is obligate to provide this.
We only have the basics based on various tweets (mostly by Musk) and
official statements during launches and in other media.

The "reduced nuisance" satellites is not in general deployment yet,
just two single-satellite trials. IE, one of the satellites in the
Starlink-6 launch was named "DarkSat" and one in the Starlink-7 (the
most recent one) was named "VisorSat" though they're ALSO making
software changes to try to mitigate (orientation matters a lot!).

With the current schedule they likely already have at least two full
batches of the current design already built (60+60 for Starlink-8 & 9
launches) and it's likely they'll keep using the "known working" model
while they do more tests to refine the final solution, IE by inserting
single one-off satellites in launches where the rest are regular
assembly-line models.

Heck, there may well have been many other one-off satellites hidden in
the existing launches that we don't know of because they didn't test
this specific area where SpaceX has been very open about what they're
doing.

Musk has tweeted that their goal is to launch satellites with laser
links between satellites "late 2020", I would expect those to include
various enhancement in this area too.

Given that it's SpaceX and they really believe in rapid turn-around
there MAY be a general deployment of some intermediate version before
these earlier in 2020, or not. I think that depends on how comfortable
they feel with it and how far ahead of the launches the assembly line
is.

Musk seemed to be very confident in the VisorSat concept so it's
definitely not impossible there might be an intermediate version if
the test works well. The problem is worst during the early after each
launch so at least they get data early rather than having to wait 2
months for the orbit raising to finish...
Peter Trei
2020-06-07 18:38:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Wouldn't the version number be point incremented for the ones that
supposedly are less of a nuisance to astronomers, which I thought
these were or...?
Oh - mostly not.
It's quite likely there's internal difference and revision numbers
we're not aware of, it's not like SpaceX is obligate to provide this.
We only have the basics based on various tweets (mostly by Musk) and
official statements during launches and in other media.
The "reduced nuisance" satellites is not in general deployment yet,
just two single-satellite trials. IE, one of the satellites in the
Starlink-6 launch was named "DarkSat" and one in the Starlink-7 (the
most recent one) was named "VisorSat" though they're ALSO making
software changes to try to mitigate (orientation matters a lot!).
With the current schedule they likely already have at least two full
batches of the current design already built (60+60 for Starlink-8 & 9
launches) and it's likely they'll keep using the "known working" model
while they do more tests to refine the final solution, IE by inserting
single one-off satellites in launches where the rest are regular
assembly-line models.
Heck, there may well have been many other one-off satellites hidden in
the existing launches that we don't know of because they didn't test
this specific area where SpaceX has been very open about what they're
doing.
Musk has tweeted that their goal is to launch satellites with laser
links between satellites "late 2020", I would expect those to include
various enhancement in this area too.
Given that it's SpaceX and they really believe in rapid turn-around
there MAY be a general deployment of some intermediate version before
these earlier in 2020, or not. I think that depends on how comfortable
they feel with it and how far ahead of the launches the assembly line
is.
Musk seemed to be very confident in the VisorSat concept so it's
definitely not impossible there might be an intermediate version if
the test works well. The problem is worst during the early after each
launch so at least they get data early rather than having to wait 2
months for the orbit raising to finish...
I found this image of Starlink satellites, taken from the ISS, quite
provoking:

https://petapixel.com/2020/04/23/iss-astronaut-captures-train-of-spacex-starlink-satellites-over-the-aurora/

I really hope they solve this problem.

pt

Thomas Koenig
2020-05-30 07:40:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
"SpaceX loses another Starship prototype in massive explosion"
Reminds me of the "bridge capacity" Calvin & Hobbes, which is a
legend among engineers:

https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1986/11/26
J. Clarke
2020-05-30 23:42:13 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 29 May 2020 20:48:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
"SpaceX loses another Starship prototype in massive explosion"
https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/29/21274931/spacex-starship-prototype-rocket-explosion-static-fire-test
"Another Starship bites the dust"
SpaceX is making a new Starship and blowing up a few on the way there.
http://drudgereport.com/
And in other stories, SpaceX Demo-2 manned launch goes off without a
hitch.
Lynn McGuire
2020-05-31 02:41:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 29 May 2020 20:48:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
"SpaceX loses another Starship prototype in massive explosion"
https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/29/21274931/spacex-starship-prototype-rocket-explosion-static-fire-test
"Another Starship bites the dust"
SpaceX is making a new Starship and blowing up a few on the way there.
http://drudgereport.com/
And in other stories, SpaceX Demo-2 manned launch goes off without a
hitch.
It was sweet !

I look forward to riding the daily ballistic from Houston to Tokyo.

Lynn
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