Discussion:
[OT] Right Out of Science Fiction
(too old to reply)
Quadibloc
2020-05-21 20:43:02 UTC
Permalink
Here's my answer to news stories like this:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/05/ousted-scientist-says-she-was-asked-to-manipulate-florida-covid-19-data/?comments=1&post=38916447

Take away from politicians, from the President on down, the authority to give
orders to scientists in the performance of their duties.

Instead have decisions relating to science made by a Science Council, made up of
scientists, with the legal status of an independent branch of government - like
the Supreme Court.

If necessary, they could even have an investigative arm with arrest powers - the
Science Police.

This would be a step forwards to the kind of advanced future society envisaged by
many writers of science-fiction stories and comic books.

John Savard
m***@sky.com
2020-05-22 04:09:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/05/ousted-scientist-says-she-was-asked-to-manipulate-florida-covid-19-data/?comments=1&post=38916447
Take away from politicians, from the President on down, the authority to give
orders to scientists in the performance of their duties.
Instead have decisions relating to science made by a Science Council, made up of
scientists, with the legal status of an independent branch of government - like
the Supreme Court.
If necessary, they could even have an investigative arm with arrest powers - the
Science Police.
This would be a step forwards to the kind of advanced future society envisaged by
many writers of science-fiction stories and comic books.
John Savard
Perhaps in the 1930s, and in the minds of those pushing "Scientific Socialism". Unfortunately we now know that taking government too far away from democracy doesn't work - Communist China not only claims to be using "Scientific Socialism" but actually does have a much more prominent roles for ex-engineers and so on in government.
Quadibloc
2020-05-22 07:39:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@sky.com
Perhaps in the 1930s, and in the minds of those pushing "Scientific Socialism".
Unfortunately we now know that taking government too far away from democracy
doesn't work - Communist China not only claims to be using "Scientific
Socialism" but actually does have a much more prominent roles for ex-engineers
and so on in government.
Tyranny, of course, is not a step forwards to the future, but a step backwards
towards barbarism.

It *is* true that a number of the tropes in 1930s science fiction that wound up
in the early Superman comics' depiction of Krypton, for example, very likely had
their origin in rosy visions of Stalin's Russia created by its propaganda at the
time.

This is a very complicated and suble question - whereas anti-science policies by
some political forces in the U.S. during a pandemic are a simple and
straightforward question.

One of the most basic steps needed to move America towards both the future and
to renewed greatness is to restore the health of the American educational
system, so as to better approach the ideal of "Jeffersonian democracy".

John Savard
Kevrob
2020-05-22 14:43:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by m***@sky.com
Perhaps in the 1930s, and in the minds of those pushing "Scientific Socialism".
Unfortunately we now know that taking government too far away from democracy
doesn't work - Communist China not only claims to be using "Scientific
Socialism" but actually does have a much more prominent roles for ex-engineers
and so on in government.
Tyranny, of course, is not a step forwards to the future, but a step backwards
towards barbarism.
It *is* true that a number of the tropes in 1930s science fiction that wound up
in the early Superman comics' depiction of Krypton, for example, very likely had
their origin in rosy visions of Stalin's Russia created by its propaganda at the
time.
This is a very complicated and suble question - whereas anti-science policies by
some political forces in the U.S. during a pandemic are a simple and
straightforward question.
One of the most basic steps needed to move America towards both the future and
to renewed greatness is to restore the health of the American educational
system, so as to better approach the ideal of "Jeffersonian democracy".
Think of Siegel & Shuster's Krypton as the product of a couple of
fanboys in love with the 1936 film written by Wells, "Things To Come."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Things_To_Come

They also named the town where "The Daily Star/Planet" was
published "Metropolis." The boys were in First Fandom,
after all.

Kevin R
J. Clarke
2020-05-22 23:16:20 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 May 2020 00:39:07 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by m***@sky.com
Perhaps in the 1930s, and in the minds of those pushing "Scientific Socialism".
Unfortunately we now know that taking government too far away from democracy
doesn't work - Communist China not only claims to be using "Scientific
Socialism" but actually does have a much more prominent roles for ex-engineers
and so on in government.
Tyranny, of course, is not a step forwards to the future, but a step backwards
towards barbarism.
It *is* true that a number of the tropes in 1930s science fiction that wound up
in the early Superman comics' depiction of Krypton, for example, very likely had
their origin in rosy visions of Stalin's Russia created by its propaganda at the
time.
This is a very complicated and suble question - whereas anti-science policies by
some political forces in the U.S. during a pandemic are a simple and
straightforward question.
One of the most basic steps needed to move America towards both the future and
to renewed greatness is to restore the health of the American educational
system, so as to better approach the ideal of "Jeffersonian democracy".
But that would do away with equality of outcome, and we can't have
that.
Robert Carnegie
2020-05-22 09:29:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/05/ousted-scientist-says-she-was-asked-to-manipulate-florida-covid-19-data/?comments=1&post=38916447
Take away from politicians, from the President on down, the authority to give
orders to scientists in the performance of their duties.
Instead have decisions relating to science made by a Science Council, made up of
scientists, with the legal status of an independent branch of government - like
the Supreme Court.
If necessary, they could even have an investigative arm with arrest powers - the
Science Police.
This would be a step forwards to the kind of advanced future society envisaged by
many writers of science-fiction stories and comic books.
John Savard
Perhaps in the 1930s, and in the minds of those pushing "Scientific Socialism". Unfortunately we now know that taking government too far away from democracy doesn't work - Communist China not only claims to be using "Scientific Socialism" but actually does have a much more prominent roles for ex-engineers and so on in government.
Allowing for glitches in the last twelve months,
are you confident that China today "doesn't work"?

And yes I note whose "modest proposal" I'm apparently
defending.

So I think I'd speak up for a revival of science
education, of not denying facts, and maybe bring back
the death penalty for sorcery as practised by
televangelists and megachurches who promise to
cure cancer or coronavirus or poverty in return
for money.
Quadibloc
2020-05-22 10:18:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Allowing for glitches in the last twelve months,
are you confident that China today "doesn't work"?
Does China produce happiness for (nearly) all its people? Checking the Tibetans
and the Uighurs. No.

Does China "work"? That depends what you mean by working. It *functions*, and it
is not in imminent danger of collapse. But does it serve a useful or desirable
purpose?

In any case, I'm much more worried about how, because of Trump getting elected,
America, the heart of the free world - on which all the free countries'
independence from Russia and/or China absolutely depends - the U. S. of A might
cease to work.

My *solution*, though, is one that is unpopular these days. I would recommend as
a response that both Canada and Australia begin to join Britain and France by
developing a full-scale strategic nuclear deterrent, including a full second-
strike capability. This would introduce needed redundancy into the defenses of
the Free World, and ensure that no opportunity for adventure is presented to
Russia or China should any further deterioration in the functioning of the
United States, or its relationships with its allies, take place.

When survival is at issue, attention should be focused on dealing with the
issues having the greatest seriousness.

John Savard

John Savard
Paul S Person
2020-05-22 17:00:09 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 May 2020 03:18:06 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Robert Carnegie
Allowing for glitches in the last twelve months,
are you confident that China today "doesn't work"?
Does China produce happiness for (nearly) all its people? Checking the Tibetans
and the Uighurs. No.
Does China "work"? That depends what you mean by working. It *functions*, and it
is not in imminent danger of collapse. But does it serve a useful or desirable
purpose?
There are minor, but persistent, indications that the local
authorities sometimes try to act independently of the Central
Authority. Which is /not/ the way it is supposed to work.

China has a long history of periodically breaking up into several
states, which then fight each other. Granted, the next time they will
probably be "People's States" rather than "Kingdoms", but a next time
would be entirely consistent with their history.
Post by Quadibloc
In any case, I'm much more worried about how, because of Trump getting elected,
America, the heart of the free world - on which all the free countries'
independence from Russia and/or China absolutely depends - the U. S. of A might
cease to work.
My *solution*, though, is one that is unpopular these days. I would recommend as
a response that both Canada and Australia begin to join Britain and France by
developing a full-scale strategic nuclear deterrent, including a full second-
strike capability. This would introduce needed redundancy into the defenses of
the Free World, and ensure that no opportunity for adventure is presented to
Russia or China should any further deterioration in the functioning of the
United States, or its relationships with its allies, take place.
When survival is at issue, attention should be focused on dealing with the
issues having the greatest seriousness.
I'm sure The Donald would approve.

After all, he's always claimed that the other nations in NATO aren't
spending enough on defense.

And, anyway, non-proliferation hasn't worked and can be expected to
continue to not work. Can't put /that/ genie back into the bottle!
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Quadibloc
2020-05-22 17:23:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 22 May 2020 03:18:06 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
My *solution*, though, is one that is unpopular these days. I would recommend as
a response that both Canada and Australia begin to join Britain and France by
developing a full-scale strategic nuclear deterrent, including a full second-
strike capability. This would introduce needed redundancy into the defenses of
the Free World, and ensure that no opportunity for adventure is presented to
Russia or China should any further deterioration in the functioning of the
United States, or its relationships with its allies, take place.
When survival is at issue, attention should be focused on dealing with the
issues having the greatest seriousness.
I'm sure The Donald would approve.
After all, he's always claimed that the other nations in NATO aren't
spending enough on defense.
And, anyway, non-proliferation hasn't worked and can be expected to
continue to not work. Can't put /that/ genie back into the bottle!
I remember reading a news item about how the Obama administration pressured
Taiwan and/or South Korea into giving up nuclear ambitions. Now's their chance,
then.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2020-05-22 23:26:38 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 May 2020 03:18:06 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Robert Carnegie
Allowing for glitches in the last twelve months,
are you confident that China today "doesn't work"?
Does China produce happiness for (nearly) all its people? Checking the Tibetans
and the Uighurs. No.
Note that they collectively represent about 1.2 percent of the
population of China and it is not clear that all of them are unhappy.
Post by Quadibloc
Does China "work"? That depends what you mean by working. It *functions*, and it
is not in imminent danger of collapse. But does it serve a useful or desirable
purpose?
It provides increasing quantities of consumer goods for its people.
Whether that is "useful or desirable" depends on how you feel about
consumer goods.
Post by Quadibloc
In any case, I'm much more worried about how, because of Trump getting elected,
America, the heart of the free world - on which all the free countries'
independence from Russia and/or China absolutely depends - the U. S. of A might
cease to work.
If "all the free countries" that betweent them have an economy
somewhat larger than that of the US and massively larger than that of
Russia are unwilling to spend what it takes to defend themselves,
screw 'em.
Post by Quadibloc
My *solution*, though, is one that is unpopular these days. I would recommend as
a response that both Canada and Australia begin to join Britain and France by
developing a full-scale strategic nuclear deterrent, including a full second-
strike capability.
Good luck getting France to cooperate with Britain. Concorde was a
miracle unlikely to be repeated.

And where are Britain and France going to put this second-strike
capability? It's going to be a target if it is ever needed so
whatever is on top of it is going to be destroyed. In the US that's
mostly wheat. In Britain and France are there equivalent wide-open
spaces?
Post by Quadibloc
This would introduce needed redundancy into the defenses of
the Free World, and ensure that no opportunity for adventure is presented to
Russia or China should any further deterioration in the functioning of the
United States, or its relationships with its allies, take place.
Why are you so afraid of Russia? It is 2020, not 1960.
Post by Quadibloc
When survival is at issue, attention should be focused on dealing with the
issues having the greatest seriousness.
And it is. It's just that people like you who have not realized that
the Cold War is over have the wrong priorities.
Chrysi Cat
2020-05-23 02:50:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 22 May 2020 03:18:06 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Robert Carnegie
Allowing for glitches in the last twelve months,
are you confident that China today "doesn't work"?
Does China produce happiness for (nearly) all its people? Checking the Tibetans
and the Uighurs. No.
Note that they collectively represent about 1.2 percent of the
population of China and it is not clear that all of them are unhappy.
Post by Quadibloc
Does China "work"? That depends what you mean by working. It *functions*, and it
is not in imminent danger of collapse. But does it serve a useful or desirable
purpose?
It provides increasing quantities of consumer goods for its people.
Whether that is "useful or desirable" depends on how you feel about
consumer goods.
Post by Quadibloc
In any case, I'm much more worried about how, because of Trump getting elected,
America, the heart of the free world - on which all the free countries'
independence from Russia and/or China absolutely depends - the U. S. of A might
cease to work.
If "all the free countries" that betweent them have an economy
somewhat larger than that of the US and massively larger than that of
Russia are unwilling to spend what it takes to defend themselves,
screw 'em.
Post by Quadibloc
My *solution*, though, is one that is unpopular these days. I would recommend as
a response that both Canada and Australia begin to join Britain and France by
developing a full-scale strategic nuclear deterrent, including a full second-
strike capability.
Good luck getting France to cooperate with Britain. Concorde was a
miracle unlikely to be repeated.
And where are Britain and France going to put this second-strike
capability? It's going to be a target if it is ever needed so
whatever is on top of it is going to be destroyed. In the US that's
mostly wheat. In Britain and France are there equivalent wide-open
spaces?
Post by Quadibloc
This would introduce needed redundancy into the defenses of
the Free World, and ensure that no opportunity for adventure is presented to
Russia or China should any further deterioration in the functioning of the
United States, or its relationships with its allies, take place.
Why are you so afraid of Russia? It is 2020, not 1960.
Post by Quadibloc
When survival is at issue, attention should be focused on dealing with the
issues having the greatest seriousness.
And it is. It's just that people like you who have not realized that
the Cold War is over have the wrong priorities.
Because /Russia/ wants it back on, or for us to retroactively grant it
victory in terms of everything but restoring the Communist Party. They
demand that the entire world return LGBT to the status of "in the closet
and persecution ensues whenever even actually-straight people do
anything that earns suspicion of their being gay", the way things were
worldwide until the 1920s and reverted to between 1933 and '89, for one
thing.

And between them and Communist China, they insist on making the world
safe for authoritarianism and making clear once and for all that liberal
democracy is a failed idea and a sin against their god.

The only difference is, /this/ time the number of people who are willing
to leave ultimate authority to Moscow is slightly greater than it was in
1931-45 before the first Cold War ensued.
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
J. Clarke
2020-05-23 03:32:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 22 May 2020 03:18:06 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Robert Carnegie
Allowing for glitches in the last twelve months,
are you confident that China today "doesn't work"?
Does China produce happiness for (nearly) all its people? Checking the Tibetans
and the Uighurs. No.
Note that they collectively represent about 1.2 percent of the
population of China and it is not clear that all of them are unhappy.
Post by Quadibloc
Does China "work"? That depends what you mean by working. It *functions*, and it
is not in imminent danger of collapse. But does it serve a useful or desirable
purpose?
It provides increasing quantities of consumer goods for its people.
Whether that is "useful or desirable" depends on how you feel about
consumer goods.
Post by Quadibloc
In any case, I'm much more worried about how, because of Trump getting elected,
America, the heart of the free world - on which all the free countries'
independence from Russia and/or China absolutely depends - the U. S. of A might
cease to work.
If "all the free countries" that betweent them have an economy
somewhat larger than that of the US and massively larger than that of
Russia are unwilling to spend what it takes to defend themselves,
screw 'em.
Post by Quadibloc
My *solution*, though, is one that is unpopular these days. I would recommend as
a response that both Canada and Australia begin to join Britain and France by
developing a full-scale strategic nuclear deterrent, including a full second-
strike capability.
Good luck getting France to cooperate with Britain. Concorde was a
miracle unlikely to be repeated.
And where are Britain and France going to put this second-strike
capability? It's going to be a target if it is ever needed so
whatever is on top of it is going to be destroyed. In the US that's
mostly wheat. In Britain and France are there equivalent wide-open
spaces?
Post by Quadibloc
This would introduce needed redundancy into the defenses of
the Free World, and ensure that no opportunity for adventure is presented to
Russia or China should any further deterioration in the functioning of the
United States, or its relationships with its allies, take place.
Why are you so afraid of Russia? It is 2020, not 1960.
Post by Quadibloc
When survival is at issue, attention should be focused on dealing with the
issues having the greatest seriousness.
And it is. It's just that people like you who have not realized that
the Cold War is over have the wrong priorities.
Because /Russia/ wants it back on, or for us to retroactively grant it
victory in terms of everything but restoring the Communist Party. They
demand that the entire world return LGBT to the status of "in the closet
and persecution ensues whenever even actually-straight people do
anything that earns suspicion of their being gay", the way things were
worldwide until the 1920s and reverted to between 1933 and '89, for one
thing.
Please provide a link to the text of this demand.
Post by Chrysi Cat
And between them and Communist China, they insist on making the world
safe for authoritarianism and making clear once and for all that liberal
democracy is a failed idea and a sin against their god.
They don't have a god, and if they are in fact making the world safe
for authoritarianism that is pretty good evidence that democracy _has_
failed.
Post by Chrysi Cat
The only difference is, /this/ time the number of people who are willing
to leave ultimate authority to Moscow is slightly greater than it was in
1931-45 before the first Cold War ensued.
Please provide your census.
m***@sky.com
2020-05-23 04:25:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 22 May 2020 03:18:06 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Robert Carnegie
Allowing for glitches in the last twelve months,
are you confident that China today "doesn't work"?
Does China produce happiness for (nearly) all its people? Checking the Tibetans
and the Uighurs. No.
Note that they collectively represent about 1.2 percent of the
population of China and it is not clear that all of them are unhappy.
Post by Quadibloc
Does China "work"? That depends what you mean by working. It *functions*, and it
is not in imminent danger of collapse. But does it serve a useful or desirable
purpose?
It provides increasing quantities of consumer goods for its people.
Whether that is "useful or desirable" depends on how you feel about
consumer goods.
This has been the implicit bargain so far. There have always been questions about what happens when Chinese development gets out of catch-up mode and becomes subject to recessions. It will be interesting to see what happens if it becomes clear that Chinese authoritarianism - by covering up the epidemic - has killed large numbers of _chinese_. (My guess is that Xi will be replaced and made a scapegoat as soon as it is clear that they really have cleared Covid-19).
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Quadibloc
In any case, I'm much more worried about how, because of Trump getting elected,
America, the heart of the free world - on which all the free countries'
independence from Russia and/or China absolutely depends - the U. S. of A might
cease to work.
If "all the free countries" that betweent them have an economy
somewhat larger than that of the US and massively larger than that of
Russia are unwilling to spend what it takes to defend themselves,
screw 'em.
Post by Quadibloc
My *solution*, though, is one that is unpopular these days. I would recommend as
a response that both Canada and Australia begin to join Britain and France by
developing a full-scale strategic nuclear deterrent, including a full second-
strike capability.
Good luck getting France to cooperate with Britain. Concorde was a
miracle unlikely to be repeated.
And where are Britain and France going to put this second-strike
capability? It's going to be a target if it is ever needed so
whatever is on top of it is going to be destroyed. In the US that's
mostly wheat. In Britain and France are there equivalent wide-open
spaces?
Both France and Britain have maintained the classic second strike nuclear deterrent for years using ballistic missile submarines, with one armed submarine always at sea - it takes up a good deal of their defense spending. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trident_(UK_nuclear_programme) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_de_dissuasion. There has been some discussion of the fact that UK subs use the same pool of missiles as the USA, but I find plausible the official position that they can be launched at the whim of Boris Johnson regardless of any steadying influence President Trump may wish to exert.
m***@sky.com
2020-05-22 17:28:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/05/ousted-scientist-says-she-was-asked-to-manipulate-florida-covid-19-data/?comments=1&post=38916447
Take away from politicians, from the President on down, the authority to give
orders to scientists in the performance of their duties.
Instead have decisions relating to science made by a Science Council, made up of
scientists, with the legal status of an independent branch of government - like
the Supreme Court.
If necessary, they could even have an investigative arm with arrest powers - the
Science Police.
This would be a step forwards to the kind of advanced future society envisaged by
many writers of science-fiction stories and comic books.
John Savard
Perhaps in the 1930s, and in the minds of those pushing "Scientific Socialism". Unfortunately we now know that taking government too far away from democracy doesn't work - Communist China not only claims to be using "Scientific Socialism" but actually does have a much more prominent roles for ex-engineers and so on in government.
Allowing for glitches in the last twelve months,
are you confident that China today "doesn't work"?
And yes I note whose "modest proposal" I'm apparently
defending.
So I think I'd speak up for a revival of science
education, of not denying facts, and maybe bring back
the death penalty for sorcery as practised by
televangelists and megachurches who promise to
cure cancer or coronavirus or poverty in return
for money.
I am confident that China does not work, in the sense that the more we hear about it, the less attractive it looks.

I do not think there is enough evidence yet to tell if it can work, in the sense that it can generate enough economic and military progress to challenge or even overtake less authoritarian societies. Whether democracy and freedom will always produce enough progress and prosperity to outpace authoritarian states is a great question of our time, which I would like to see worked out in Science Fiction. This is especially interesting when (e.g. the Draka) the authoritarian state is also stealing technology from the free states.

FWIW there have been a few examples of democracies allowing all comers to become politicians and surviving it. I think there are a few communist mayors in Europe. The UK had an opposition leader (Jeremy Corbyn) with a pretty consistent track record of support for terrorists (now thankfully replaced by Keir Starmer). After the amnesties at the close of the troubles, politicians in N.Ireland have sat down and worked with ex-terrorists who were previously trying to kill them.
J. Clarke
2020-05-22 23:34:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/05/ousted-scientist-says-she-was-asked-to-manipulate-florida-covid-19-data/?comments=1&post=38916447
Take away from politicians, from the President on down, the authority to give
orders to scientists in the performance of their duties.
Instead have decisions relating to science made by a Science Council, made up of
scientists, with the legal status of an independent branch of government - like
the Supreme Court.
If necessary, they could even have an investigative arm with arrest powers - the
Science Police.
This would be a step forwards to the kind of advanced future society envisaged by
many writers of science-fiction stories and comic books.
John Savard
Perhaps in the 1930s, and in the minds of those pushing "Scientific Socialism". Unfortunately we now know that taking government too far away from democracy doesn't work - Communist China not only claims to be using "Scientific Socialism" but actually does have a much more prominent roles for ex-engineers and so on in government.
Allowing for glitches in the last twelve months,
are you confident that China today "doesn't work"?
And yes I note whose "modest proposal" I'm apparently
defending.
So I think I'd speak up for a revival of science
education, of not denying facts, and maybe bring back
the death penalty for sorcery as practised by
televangelists and megachurches who promise to
cure cancer or coronavirus or poverty in return
for money.
I am confident that China does not work, in the sense that the more we hear about it, the less attractive it looks.
I do not think there is enough evidence yet to tell if it can work, in the sense that it can generate enough economic and military progress to challenge or even overtake less authoritarian societies. Whether democracy and freedom will always produce enough progress and prosperity to outpace authoritarian states is a great question of our time, which I would like to see worked out in Science Fiction. This is especially interesting when (e.g. the Draka) the authoritarian state is also stealing technology from the free states.
The Chinese aren't stealing technology, business people are in a race
to see who can _give_ them the most. As to economic progress, it
seems to have escaped your notice that China has gone from the 10th
largest economy to the second largest in less than 30 years
Post by m***@sky.com
FWIW there have been a few examples of democracies allowing all comers to become politicians and surviving it. I think there are a few communist mayors in Europe. The UK had an opposition leader (Jeremy Corbyn) with a pretty consistent track record of support for terrorists (now thankfully replaced by Keir Starmer). After the amnesties at the close of the troubles, politicians in N.Ireland have sat down and worked with ex-terrorists who were previously trying to kill them.
Peter Trei
2020-05-23 01:18:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/05/ousted-scientist-says-she-was-asked-to-manipulate-florida-covid-19-data/?comments=1&post=38916447
Take away from politicians, from the President on down, the authority to give
orders to scientists in the performance of their duties.
Instead have decisions relating to science made by a Science Council, made up of
scientists, with the legal status of an independent branch of government - like
the Supreme Court.
If necessary, they could even have an investigative arm with arrest powers - the
Science Police.
This would be a step forwards to the kind of advanced future society envisaged by
many writers of science-fiction stories and comic books.
John Savard
Perhaps in the 1930s, and in the minds of those pushing "Scientific Socialism". Unfortunately we now know that taking government too far away from democracy doesn't work - Communist China not only claims to be using "Scientific Socialism" but actually does have a much more prominent roles for ex-engineers and so on in government.
Allowing for glitches in the last twelve months,
are you confident that China today "doesn't work"?
And yes I note whose "modest proposal" I'm apparently
defending.
So I think I'd speak up for a revival of science
education, of not denying facts, and maybe bring back
the death penalty for sorcery as practised by
televangelists and megachurches who promise to
cure cancer or coronavirus or poverty in return
for money.
I am confident that China does not work, in the sense that the more we hear about it, the less attractive it looks.
I do not think there is enough evidence yet to tell if it can work, in the sense that it can generate enough economic and military progress to challenge or even overtake less authoritarian societies. Whether democracy and freedom will always produce enough progress and prosperity to outpace authoritarian states is a great question of our time, which I would like to see worked out in Science Fiction. This is especially interesting when (e.g. the Draka) the authoritarian state is also stealing technology from the free states.
The Chinese aren't stealing technology, business people are in a race
to see who can _give_ them the most. As to economic progress, it
seems to have escaped your notice that China has gone from the 10th
largest economy to the second largest in less than 30 years.
They're stealing it too. My employer gets cyberattacks from China on a daily basis. My job
is keeping them out.

Pt
Lynn McGuire
2020-05-23 01:55:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
Post by J. Clarke
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/05/ousted-scientist-says-she-was-asked-to-manipulate-florida-covid-19-data/?comments=1&post=38916447
Take away from politicians, from the President on down, the authority to give
orders to scientists in the performance of their duties.
Instead have decisions relating to science made by a Science Council, made up of
scientists, with the legal status of an independent branch of government - like
the Supreme Court.
If necessary, they could even have an investigative arm with arrest powers - the
Science Police.
This would be a step forwards to the kind of advanced future society envisaged by
many writers of science-fiction stories and comic books.
John Savard
Perhaps in the 1930s, and in the minds of those pushing "Scientific Socialism". Unfortunately we now know that taking government too far away from democracy doesn't work - Communist China not only claims to be using "Scientific Socialism" but actually does have a much more prominent roles for ex-engineers and so on in government.
Allowing for glitches in the last twelve months,
are you confident that China today "doesn't work"?
And yes I note whose "modest proposal" I'm apparently
defending.
So I think I'd speak up for a revival of science
education, of not denying facts, and maybe bring back
the death penalty for sorcery as practised by
televangelists and megachurches who promise to
cure cancer or coronavirus or poverty in return
for money.
I am confident that China does not work, in the sense that the more we hear about it, the less attractive it looks.
I do not think there is enough evidence yet to tell if it can work, in the sense that it can generate enough economic and military progress to challenge or even overtake less authoritarian societies. Whether democracy and freedom will always produce enough progress and prosperity to outpace authoritarian states is a great question of our time, which I would like to see worked out in Science Fiction. This is especially interesting when (e.g. the Draka) the authoritarian state is also stealing technology from the free states.
The Chinese aren't stealing technology, business people are in a race
to see who can _give_ them the most. As to economic progress, it
seems to have escaped your notice that China has gone from the 10th
largest economy to the second largest in less than 30 years.
They're stealing it too. My employer gets cyberattacks from China on a daily basis. My job
is keeping them out.
Pt
I've sold one license of my software in China. I have over a thousand
users there.

Lynn
Lynn McGuire
2020-05-23 00:04:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/05/ousted-scientist-says-she-was-asked-to-manipulate-florida-covid-19-data/?comments=1&post=38916447
Take away from politicians, from the President on down, the authority to give
orders to scientists in the performance of their duties.
Instead have decisions relating to science made by a Science Council, made up of
scientists, with the legal status of an independent branch of government - like
the Supreme Court.
If necessary, they could even have an investigative arm with arrest powers - the
Science Police.
This would be a step forwards to the kind of advanced future society envisaged by
many writers of science-fiction stories and comic books.
John Savard
Perhaps in the 1930s, and in the minds of those pushing "Scientific Socialism". Unfortunately we now know that taking government too far away from democracy doesn't work - Communist China not only claims to be using "Scientific Socialism" but actually does have a much more prominent roles for ex-engineers and so on in government.
Allowing for glitches in the last twelve months,
are you confident that China today "doesn't work"?
And yes I note whose "modest proposal" I'm apparently
defending.
So I think I'd speak up for a revival of science
education, of not denying facts, and maybe bring back
the death penalty for sorcery as practised by
televangelists and megachurches who promise to
cure cancer or coronavirus or poverty in return
for money.
China works because of the millions of slaves in its factories.

Lynn
Peter Trei
2020-05-22 15:24:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/05/ousted-scientist-says-she-was-asked-to-manipulate-florida-covid-19-data/?comments=1&post=38916447
Take away from politicians, from the President on down, the authority to give
orders to scientists in the performance of their duties.
Instead have decisions relating to science made by a Science Council, made up of
scientists, with the legal status of an independent branch of government - like
the Supreme Court.
If necessary, they could even have an investigative arm with arrest powers - the
Science Police.
This would be a step forwards to the kind of advanced future society envisaged by
many writers of science-fiction stories and comic books.
John Savard
You're recreating Technocracy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy

It was quite popular in sercon fandom 60, 70 years ago.

Pt
Paul S Person
2020-05-22 16:54:31 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 21 May 2020 13:43:02 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/05/ousted-scientist-says-she-was-asked-to-manipulate-florida-covid-19-data/?comments=1&post=38916447
Take away from politicians, from the President on down, the authority to give
orders to scientists in the performance of their duties.
Instead have decisions relating to science made by a Science Council, made up of
scientists, with the legal status of an independent branch of government - like
the Supreme Court.
If necessary, they could even have an investigative arm with arrest powers - the
Science Police.
This would be a step forwards to the kind of advanced future society envisaged by
many writers of science-fiction stories and comic books.
Particularly the dystopias.

The whole /point/ of exploring this sort of thing in fiction is to see
where the problems lie.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Loading...