Discussion:
[OT] Right Out of Science Fiction
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Robert Carnegie
2020-05-28 09:11:45 UTC
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The way Australia does it is that there's a removable flap which has the details of the voter
That's verified against the electoral lists, removed and then the intact envelope is sent elsewhere to be counted as a vote.
Does that presuppose that the "voter" has registered, in person, ahead of time, with some election commission.....perhaps by providing a photo ID ?
The Electoral Commissions, one for each state and territory, and one
federal - which are independent governmental agencies, and not under the
control of any political party, even the one in power - do regular
door-knocks where identity and residence are verified.
It's not terribly difficult... Well, if you're USAian I suppose it must be.
"You got a warrant...?"
Our doors are usually farther apart.
A little internet search will show how some freak out when
the state or local commission responsible for keeping the
voter rolls send mail with an order to return if undeliverable,
in order to get names of those who have possibly moved or died.
This is considered "voter suppression" by some.
It relies on the loyalty to duty of the postal service, which as we know,
President Trump distrusts. He isn’t alone either.

Obviously to not deliver those mails to poor, black, or queer
districts is trivial. And of course this does not suppress only
their postal votes, but all votes.
Robert Carnegie
2020-05-28 09:28:52 UTC
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On Tue, 26 May 2020 13:08:18 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
<snip stuff so far off base is can't even be said to be wrong>
Wow!
You really have /no idea at all/ how it works, do you?
The paper strip with the number is removed /by the voter/ and
is /not sent back in/.
In the /real/ world, anyway. Over there is alt-reality,
anything can happen.
In the real world that is the State of Washington. But, does
that extend to California?
In California, there's a serial number on the ballot itself, and it
is tied to the identify of the voter. There's literally no pretense
of secret ballots.
There is literally no support for your claim in your post.
In the United Kingdom, when I vote in person, a numbered
ballot form is given to me, and it is recorded that I was given
the form with that number. So my ballot can be identified as
mine. It is not done unless, I suppose, it is claimed that the
person who voted isn't me (claimed by me presumably),
/and/ the outcome of the poll is quite close. Or no doubt if
I write on the paper “I soaked this in a poison undetectable
to science.” The counters probably wear gloves anyway,
and especially this year of plague - people are charged
and convicted for assault for coughing. Possibly murder
following the death of Mrs Belly Mujinga.
Thomas Koenig
2020-05-28 11:51:41 UTC
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On Tue, 26 May 2020 22:24:35 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
It _is_ hard to remove a *real* dictator by the use of weapons. Donald Trump
hasn't repealed the Second Amendment, so he is not a real dictator.
So? The Democrats claim that he is. Are you saying that they lie?
Not really. Their imaginations are just a little overheated when they equate
Donald Trump with Adolph Hitler.
Who is Adolph Hitler?
J. Clarke
2020-05-28 12:19:24 UTC
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On Thu, 28 May 2020 13:58:36 +1000, "Gary R. Schmidt"
[SNIP]
Sure you can
The way Australia does it is that there's a removable flap
which has the details of the voter That's verified against the
electoral lists, removed and then the intact envelope is sent
elsewhere to be counted as a vote.
In Washington state it's an entire outer envelope, rather than
a flap, but it's the same principle.
That's how it works in Oz, too. One inner envelope which
contains the ballot and has the declaration(s) on a detachable
flap, which is then placed into a second envelope, sealed, and
signed.
So there's no way to verify that the actual ballot was filled out by
the registered voter it was sent to. Or, for that matter, by *any*
registered voter?
You can have one or the other, but not both.
Well, if the signatures don't match, I would say that something is up.
Signatures? If there is a signature on the ballot, that defeats the
whole concept of a secret ballot.
But you keep on living in your sad little world, where the USA won the
Vietnam War, and sundry other delusions hold sway. :-)
Nobody thinks that the US won Vietnam. What you don't get is that the
defeat was political, not military--the people of the US became
convinced with the collusion of the press that the war could not be
won, and prevailed upon the politicians to end it. That they were
losing on the battlefield was news to the military.
Paul S Person
2020-05-28 16:05:43 UTC
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On Thu, 28 May 2020 08:19:24 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 28 May 2020 13:58:36 +1000, "Gary R. Schmidt"
[SNIP]
Sure you can
The way Australia does it is that there's a removable flap
which has the details of the voter That's verified against the
electoral lists, removed and then the intact envelope is sent
elsewhere to be counted as a vote.
In Washington state it's an entire outer envelope, rather than
a flap, but it's the same principle.
That's how it works in Oz, too. One inner envelope which
contains the ballot and has the declaration(s) on a detachable
flap, which is then placed into a second envelope, sealed, and
signed.
So there's no way to verify that the actual ballot was filled out by
the registered voter it was sent to. Or, for that matter, by *any*
registered voter?
You can have one or the other, but not both.
Well, if the signatures don't match, I would say that something is up.
Signatures? If there is a signature on the ballot, that defeats the
whole concept of a secret ballot.
But you keep on living in your sad little world, where the USA won the
Vietnam War, and sundry other delusions hold sway. :-)
Nobody thinks that the US won Vietnam. What you don't get is that the
defeat was political, not military--the people of the US became
convinced with the collusion of the press that the war could not be
won, and prevailed upon the politicians to end it. That they were
losing on the battlefield was news to the military.
Actually, IIRC, the Army did a study.

Well, of course they did: after-action studies are how they learn
things useful in the future.

What they found was that

support for the war /declined/ with
every dead soldier landed at Dover

I've pointed this out before: the war was supported initially because
it supported the Draft, and the Draft was supported because it made
the boys get their g*dd*m*nd hair cut.

Actually /dying/ was never part of the deal.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2020-05-28 16:39:46 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 28 May 2020 13:58:36 +1000, "Gary R. Schmidt"
On Tue, 26 May 2020 22:04:53 -0700 (PDT),
[SNIP]
Sure you can
The way Australia does it is that there's a removable flap
which has the details of the voter That's verified against
the electoral lists, removed and then the intact envelope
is sent elsewhere to be counted as a vote.
In Washington state it's an entire outer envelope, rather
than a flap, but it's the same principle.
That's how it works in Oz, too. One inner envelope which
contains the ballot and has the declaration(s) on a
detachable flap, which is then placed into a second envelope,
sealed, and signed.
So there's no way to verify that the actual ballot was filled
out by the registered voter it was sent to. Or, for that
matter, by *any* registered voter?
You can have one or the other, but not both.
Well, if the signatures don't match, I would say that something is up.
Signatures? If there is a signature on the ballot, that defeats
the whole concept of a secret ballot.
And if it's anywhere else, it defeats the whole concept of
verifying that votes come from qualified voters.

One or the other, but not both.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
J. Clarke
2020-05-28 12:22:10 UTC
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On Thu, 28 May 2020 17:02:17 +1000, "Gary R. Schmidt"
[SNIP]
Sure you can
The way Australia does it is that there's a removable flap
which has the details of the voter That's verified against the
electoral lists, removed and then the intact envelope is sent
elsewhere to be counted as a vote.
In Washington state it's an entire outer envelope, rather than
a flap, but it's the same principle.
That's how it works in Oz, too.  One inner envelope which
contains the ballot and has the declaration(s) on a detachable
flap, which is then placed into a second envelope, sealed, and
signed.
So there's no way to verify that the actual ballot was filled out by
the registered voter it was sent to. Or, for that matter, by *any*
registered voter?
You can have one or the other, but not both.
Well, if the signatures don't match, I would say that something is up.
But you keep on living in your sad little world, where the USA won the
Vietnam War, and sundry other delusions hold sway.  :-)
    Cheers,
        Gary    B-)
Well said.
Point of order.....
The US military DID win the war.....it was lost by the US press.
Even Gen Giap admitted that.......and was damn grateful to Dan Rather.
You *are* Terry, AICMFP.
Have you ever actually read Vo Nguyen Giap's book? If not you might
want to. I suspect it will destroy a few of your illusions.
J. Clarke
2020-05-28 12:23:35 UTC
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On Thu, 28 May 2020 14:07:31 +1000, "Gary R. Schmidt"
The way Australia does it is that there's a removable flap which has the details of the voter
That's verified against the electoral lists, removed and then the intact envelope is sent elsewhere to be counted as a vote.
Does that presuppose that the "voter" has registered, in person, ahead of time, with some election commission.....perhaps by providing a photo ID ?
The Electoral Commissions, one for each state and territory, and one
federal - which are independent governmental agencies, and not under the
control of any political party, even the one in power - do regular
door-knocks where identity and residence are verified.
Do they have warrants?
It's not terribly difficult... Well, if you're USAian I suppose it must be.
Yes, because the government is not allowed to require us to identify
ourselves to any random individual who comes knocking on the door.
J. Clarke
2020-05-28 12:24:42 UTC
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On Thu, 28 May 2020 17:11:14 +1000, "Gary R. Schmidt"
The way Australia does it is that there's a removable flap which has the details of the voter
That's verified against the electoral lists, removed and then the intact envelope is sent elsewhere to be counted as a vote.
Does that presuppose that the "voter" has registered, in person, ahead of time, with some election commission.....perhaps by providing a photo ID ?
The Electoral Commissions, one for each state and territory, and one
federal - which are independent governmental agencies, and not under the
control of any political party, even the one in power - do regular
door-knocks where identity and residence are verified.
It's not terribly difficult... Well, if you're USAian I suppose it must be.
If we were to do that for everyone here in the US..........there would be HUGE screams of racism.
The question is, would it be the blacks complaining about being
enfranchised, or the *whites* complaining about the blacks being
enfranchised???
It would be the white liberals complaining that somehow it was
disenfranchising black people.
Sometimes the USA seems a complete waste of democracy...
And yes, we didn't enfranchise our locals until 1966, but we did do it.
Cheers,
Gary B-)
J. Clarke
2020-05-28 12:30:22 UTC
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On Wed, 27 May 2020 22:11:59 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Oh, she crossed right into the dictator thing when she said that she was
going to punish them for not following her orders.
People who break the law get punished.
Please identify the specific law that was broken and the specific
punishments prescribed for violating that law.

A governor's edict, no matter how much closet royalists like you want
it to be, is NOT THE LAW.
And those who make a point of flouting the
law will get particular attention. Dictatorship depends on the content of the
laws. Not engaging in acts that endanger the lives of others is something that it
is legitimate to make illegal.
And when the specific action in question is actually made illegal get
back to us.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2020-05-28 16:30:59 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 27 May 2020 22:11:59 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
On Wednesday, May 27, 2020 at 7:24:36 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire
Oh, she crossed right into the dictator thing when she said
that she was going to punish them for not following her
orders.
People who break the law get punished.
Please identify the specific law that was broken and the
specific punishments prescribed for violating that law.
A governor's edict, no matter how much closet royalists like you
want it to be, is NOT THE LAW.
Especially when it *intentionally* punishes millions of people the
governor *knows* did not break it.

The only one breaking the law is the governor. Well, her and the jack
booted thugs that work for her, but most of them have chickened out
when it came right down to it.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
J. Clarke
2020-05-28 12:33:43 UTC
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On Wed, 27 May 2020 21:50:28 -0700, Robert Woodward
On Tue, 26 May 2020 16:15:05 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Mon, 25 May 2020 09:01:49 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
On Sun, 24 May 2020 16:40:27 +0200, Sjouke Burry
If they are not able to survive a first strike then what is
the point of putting them in hardened underground silos in
the first place?
If a tank is not able to survive a hit by an anti-tank
weapon then what is the point of putting armor on it?
Tanks are quite suitable to control your own population.
(see China at the chinamen?? square.)
Tienanmen.
So close, and yet so far.
Ti*a*nanmen Square.
Well, drat. You're right.
I keep telling you people I'm *always* right. Maybe now you'll
listen to me.
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
I will point out that a clock that runs backwards is correct more often
than that.
Rush Limbaugh used to say (maybe he still does, I haven't listened to
him in decades) that he was _always_ right, which is a true statement
if interpreted with a reasonable sense of humor and understanding of
American politics, but which led to much consternation among his
opponents.
Paul S Person
2020-05-28 15:53:04 UTC
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BTW, Charlotteville, legally contracted site of the RNC this
year, is becoming the next Hot Spot. But perhaps it will have
peaked by August.
Wow dude, you are delusional.
It's so obvious it's embarassing. One wonders if he's in the US, or
just relying on the international press propaganda for his mental
image of the US.
He can't tell Charlottesville, VA from Charlotte, NC,
though there's many a USAian that couldn't.
It's actually called a "typo". What can I say?

And NC has its infection rate /rising/, and Charlotte is right smack
dab in the middle of it -- a Hot Spot in the making. Well, as of
recently, anyway; who can say what it's doing right now?

And the RNC does have a contract with Charlotte for the convention.
Plus two years of effort and contracts with various vendors (I would
think they have, by now, rented entire hotels for the convention
dates, for example) -- and no inclination to move it.

If Trump doesn't want to show up, well, they [1] can always nominate
him in absentia. Or nominate somebody else -- somebody interested
enough in the job to show up.

It's their [1] choice, after all.

[1] Reference is, of course, to the delegates to the Republican
Convention.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Paul S Person
2020-05-28 16:02:15 UTC
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On Wed, 27 May 2020 13:08:16 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Tue, 26 May 2020 13:08:18 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
<snip stuff so far off base is can't even be said to be wrong>
Which is to say, you know I'm right but you're not man enough to
admit it.
What I have figured it that you are so far off base that what you say
can't even be said to be wrong.

IOW, on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being "wrong" and 10 being "correct",
you are at about -1000.
Wow!
You really have /no idea at all/ how it works, do you?
The paper strip with the number is removed /by the voter/ and is
/not sent back in/.
So there's no verification that it came from someone eligible to vote
at all.
In your reality, maybe.

Over here, where the rest of us live, I've done exactly that in every
election for many, many elections.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Paul S Person
2020-05-28 16:10:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
The way Australia does it is that there's a removable flap which has the details of the voter
That's verified against the electoral lists, removed and then the intact envelope is sent elsewhere to be counted as a vote.
Does that presuppose that the "voter" has registered, in person, ahead of time, with some election commission.....perhaps by providing a photo ID ?
The Electoral Commissions, one for each state and territory, and one
federal - which are independent governmental agencies, and not under the
control of any political party, even the one in power - do regular
door-knocks where identity and residence are verified.
It's not terribly difficult... Well, if you're USAian I suppose it must be.
"You got a warrant...?"
Our doors are usually farther apart.
A little internet search will show how some freak out when
the state or local commission responsible for keeping the
voter rolls send mail with an order to return if undeliverable,
in order to get names of those who have possibly moved or died.
This is considered "voter suppression" by some.
And it is ... when only /some/ cases are followed up on, all of them
located in certain areas known to contain "them".

But the solution to that is to identify the racists-in-charge and Lock
Them Up.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2020-05-28 16:23:00 UTC
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On Wednesday, May 27, 2020 at 2:20:50 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
It should also be obvious that a literal coup by a leftist
dictator is more dangnerous than the virus.
Yes, I agree with that. I don't agree that, say, Gretchen
Whitmer is a potential or aspiring "leftist dictator" by any
stretch of the imagination, though.
Then you're not paying attention.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2020-05-28 16:24:04 UTC
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On Wednesday, May 27, 2020 at 2:20:50 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
It should also be obvious that a literal coup by a leftist
dictator is more dangnerous than the virus.
Yes, I agree with that. I don't agree that, say, Gretchen
Whitmer is a potential or aspiring "leftist dictator" by any
stretch of the imagination, though.
John Savard
Oh, she crossed right into the dictator thing when she said that
she was going to punish them for not following her orders.
Specifically by extending the lockdown with no pretense of any
medical reason, but *only* to punish those who would dare challenge
her authority.

She's drive the state to the point of armed, though not *yet*
violent, insurrection, and now they have looting in the streets.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2020-05-28 16:29:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wednesday, May 27, 2020 at 7:24:36 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire
Oh, she crossed right into the dictator thing when she said
that she was going to punish them for not following her orders.
People who break the law get punished.
An uconstitutional order isn't law, it's fascism.

And her threat was to punish *everyone* in the state for the
actions of those who defied her seized authority.

Would *you* like to be locked up as punishment for something that
your neighbors did, when the person punishing you knows full well
you couldn't have done anything to stop it? And by "punish," we're
talking about being locked up at home with no income until you get
evicted and left literally homeless, probably in the middle of
winter in Michigan?

Are you *really* so fucking delusional that you find that
acceptable?
And those who make a
point of flouting the law will get particular attention.
In this case, no, they don't get particular attention. What she
threatened was to punish *everyone* for the acts of a few.
Dictatorship depends on the content of the laws.
Indeed. And the legitimacy of them.
Not engaging in
acts that endanger the lives of others is something that it is
legitimate to make illegal.
You've just agreed that the governor of Michigan's actions were
illegal. Especially in light of hospitals reporting more suicide
deaths than cornonavirus deaths (to the tune of more suicides in
the last four weeks than all of last year).
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2020-05-28 16:34:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 26 May 2020 22:04:53 -0700 (PDT),
[SNIP]
Sure you can
The way Australia does it is that there's a removable flap
which has the details of the voter That's verified against
the electoral lists, removed and then the intact envelope is
sent elsewhere to be counted as a vote.
In Washington state it's an entire outer envelope, rather
than a flap, but it's the same principle.
That's how it works in Oz, too. One inner envelope which
contains the ballot and has the declaration(s) on a detachable
flap, which is then placed into a second envelope, sealed, and
signed.
So there's no way to verify that the actual ballot was filled
out by the registered voter it was sent to. Or, for that
matter, by *any* registered voter?
You can have one or the other, but not both.
Well, if the signatures don't match, I would say that something
is up.
And if the person examining the signature *say* they don't match
(having reviewed whether or not the person voted "the right way")
who is to say they're wrong?

How many people are devoted to comparing signatures? What kind of
formal training do they receive in that forensic science?
But you keep on living in your sad little world, where the USA
won the Vietnam War, and sundry other delusions hold sway. :-)
Better than than under the fascist boot heel of the left.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2020-05-28 16:37:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wednesday, May 27, 2020 at 11:19:06 PM UTC-5, Alan Baker
On 28/05/2020 02:11, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Tue, 26 May 2020 22:04:53 -0700 (PDT),
[SNIP]
Sure you can
The way Australia does it is that there's a removable
flap which has the details of the voter That's verified
against the electoral lists, removed and then the
intact envelope is sent elsewhere to be counted as a
vote.
In Washington state it's an entire outer envelope,
rather than a flap, but it's the same principle.
That's how it works in Oz, too.  One inner envelope
which contains the ballot and has the declaration(s) on a
detachable flap, which is then placed into a second
envelope, sealed, and signed.
So there's no way to verify that the actual ballot was
filled out by the registered voter it was sent to. Or, for
that matter, by *any* registered voter?
You can have one or the other, but not both.
Well, if the signatures don't match, I would say that
something is up
.
But you keep on living in your sad little world, where the
USA won th
e
Vietnam War, and sundry other delusions hold sway.  :-)
    Cheers,
        Gary    B-
)
Well said.
Point of order.....
The US military DID win the war.....it was lost by the US
press.
Even Gen Giap admitted that.......and was damn grateful to Dan
Rather.
No, the US military won the battles
It lost the war
No, they won the war. The politicians lost the peace (before it
began) because the population wanted them to.
You can tell because of which side had their objectives happen
Our military objectives were achieved. We destroyed the NVA, and
reduced the VC to a pathetic shadow of their previously pathetic
glory. The *political* objectives were achieved, too, if you
consider that the *real* objective was to extract ourselves from a
war that would cost elections - at any cost.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
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