Discussion:
[OT] Ban on Cousin Marriage made us WEIRD?
Add Reply
Quadibloc
2019-11-08 05:31:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Saw this interesting item on Live Science:

https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html

John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-08 14:16:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
Hm. I shall read this later when I'm properly awake. In the
meantime, I can only wish the Church had stuck to her guns during
the Renaissance. Search the Hapsburgs, and particularly the
Infanta Margarita (the one in the painting and the Ravel Pavane
for a Dead Princess), and Charles II of Spain.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
o***@gmail.com
2019-11-08 18:17:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........

The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT

....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
m***@sky.com
2019-11-08 19:36:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
I found the article relatively convincing, because they graphed characteristics of populations against exposure to canonical marriage laws and there seemed to be something going on. It also fits in with previous work - one complaint I have seen about this is that there is nothing new there.

If you don't like that theory, there is one recently published at https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1811/1811.04502.pdf claiming that the west was just lucky to be the birthplace of the industrial revolution, and by the way saying that diversity is wonderful.
J. Clarke
2019-11-08 22:42:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.

An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.

The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
o***@gmail.com
2019-11-09 00:41:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
.....uh.....huh........

(heh,heh,heh)
J. Clarke
2019-11-09 01:12:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)
OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?

Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-09 15:09:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)
OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?
Pi and e are not statistical variables, they are purely mathematical
values. It's not possible for pi not to be pi, even in God's hands.
The same goes for e. The only variable is in choosing decimal
expression to represent these numbers, and that has limited room
for expresssion.

The first digits of e are 2.7 1828 1828, if you want to read anything
into or out of that. And pi is 3.14 15 9265.
J. Clarke
2019-11-09 17:30:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 07:09:31 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)
OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?
Pi and e are not statistical variables, they are purely mathematical
values. It's not possible for pi not to be pi, even in God's hands.
The same goes for e. The only variable is in choosing decimal
expression to represent these numbers, and that has limited room
for expresssion.
The first digits of e are 2.7 1828 1828, if you want to read anything
into or out of that. And pi is 3.14 15 9265.
Your point being?
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-10 00:47:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 07:09:31 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)
OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?
Pi and e are not statistical variables, they are purely mathematical
values. It's not possible for pi not to be pi, even in God's hands.
The same goes for e. The only variable is in choosing decimal
expression to represent these numbers, and that has limited room
for expression.
The first digits of e are 2.7 1828 1828, if you want to read anything
into or out of that. And pi is 3.14 15 9265.
Your point being?
In the last part: is the meaning not obvious? :-)

For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us. Each is, in fact, a number
produced by an extremely simple arithmetical formula,
and also fundamental in many mathematical relationships.
There is no pi but pi and God had nothing to do with it.

Patterns such as e /repeating/ numerals 1828 are
not meaningful.

I like the sparrow DNA one better.
J. Clarke
2019-11-10 01:41:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 07:09:31 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)
OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?
Pi and e are not statistical variables, they are purely mathematical
values. It's not possible for pi not to be pi, even in God's hands.
The same goes for e. The only variable is in choosing decimal
expression to represent these numbers, and that has limited room
for expression.
The first digits of e are 2.7 1828 1828, if you want to read anything
into or out of that. And pi is 3.14 15 9265.
Your point being?
In the last part: is the meaning not obvious? :-)
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.
And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Each is, in fact, a number
produced by an extremely simple arithmetical formula,
and also fundamental in many mathematical relationships.
You are looking at the point but not seeing it.
Post by Robert Carnegie
There is no pi but pi and God had nothing to do with it.
So where did those messages come from?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Patterns such as e /repeating/ numerals 1828 are
not meaningful.
So? Nobody said anything about patterns such as e repeating numerals.

What was described was something more complex.
Post by Robert Carnegie
I like the sparrow DNA one better.
Why? Manipulating DNA just isn't any trick. That one could be some
ancient astronaut with ET-CRISPR alleviating his boredom.
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-10 02:07:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 07:09:31 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)
OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?
Pi and e are not statistical variables, they are purely mathematical
values. It's not possible for pi not to be pi, even in God's hands.
The same goes for e. The only variable is in choosing decimal
expression to represent these numbers, and that has limited room
for expression.
The first digits of e are 2.7 1828 1828, if you want to read anything
into or out of that. And pi is 3.14 15 9265.
Your point being?
In the last part: is the meaning not obvious? :-)
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.
And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Each is, in fact, a number
produced by an extremely simple arithmetical formula,
and also fundamental in many mathematical relationships.
You are looking at the point but not seeing it.
Post by Robert Carnegie
There is no pi but pi and God had nothing to do with it.
So where did those messages come from?
The correct interpretation, with pi, is that the
calculation was performed incorrectly.

You also can postulate mathematics in which numbers
aren't fixed. God seems to have a history of doing that,
such as when 5000 people suddenly need a meal. But then
what good is mathematics? And if God lies about numbers,
is that out of character?

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz_formula_for_π>
describes how to simply and precisely, but rather
inefficiently, calculate pi. It is straightforward
arithmetic and it only gives one answer. And it
doesn't involve God.

Oh, and there are things that wouldn't work if
pi was not reliable.

Pi is the wrong object for this.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Patterns such as e /repeating/ numerals 1828 are
not meaningful.
So? Nobody said anything about patterns such as e repeating numerals.
What was described was something more complex.
Post by Robert Carnegie
I like the sparrow DNA one better.
Why? Manipulating DNA just isn't any trick. That one could be some
ancient astronaut with ET-CRISPR alleviating his boredom.
You'd certainly put the message to the test.

Does it concern cat owners?
J. Clarke
2019-11-10 02:19:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:07:46 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 07:09:31 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)
OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?
Pi and e are not statistical variables, they are purely mathematical
values. It's not possible for pi not to be pi, even in God's hands.
The same goes for e. The only variable is in choosing decimal
expression to represent these numbers, and that has limited room
for expression.
The first digits of e are 2.7 1828 1828, if you want to read anything
into or out of that. And pi is 3.14 15 9265.
Your point being?
In the last part: is the meaning not obvious? :-)
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.
And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Each is, in fact, a number
produced by an extremely simple arithmetical formula,
and also fundamental in many mathematical relationships.
You are looking at the point but not seeing it.
Post by Robert Carnegie
There is no pi but pi and God had nothing to do with it.
So where did those messages come from?
The correct interpretation, with pi, is that the
calculation was performed incorrectly.
When done repeately using different algorithms written in different
programming languages by different mathematicians and running on
different hardware architectures? Repeatedly? So _every_ algorithm
we have for computing pi and e are flawed, in _exactly_ the same way?
Post by Robert Carnegie
You also can postulate mathematics in which numbers
aren't fixed. God seems to have a history of doing that,
such as when 5000 people suddenly need a meal. But then
what good is mathematics? And if God lies about numbers,
is that out of character?
Wrong. Who said that numbers aren't "fixed"? I am not proposing that
pi tomorrow have a different value from pi today. I am proposing that
as we calculated additional digits these messages are discovered.

Or are you laboring under the misconception that the piddling 31
trillion digits we know are even scratching the surface of infinity?
Post by Robert Carnegie
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz_formula_for_?>
describes how to simply and precisely, but rather
inefficiently, calculate pi. It is straightforward
arithmetic and it only gives one answer. And it
doesn't involve God.
Nobody said it gave more than one answer. You are making things up to
attack an argument that was not presented.

Now, run your simple calculation for a hundred trillion digits, a
hundred googol digits, a googolplex digits, how do you know that it
will not reveal the message in question?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Oh, and there are things that wouldn't work if
pi was not reliable.
Who asserted that pi was not reliable? Again you are making things
up. The messages are primordial. They have been there as long as the
universe has existed.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Pi is the wrong object for this.
Pi is precisely the right object for this. You are just thinking on
too small a scale.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Patterns such as e /repeating/ numerals 1828 are
not meaningful.
So? Nobody said anything about patterns such as e repeating numerals.
What was described was something more complex.
Post by Robert Carnegie
I like the sparrow DNA one better.
Why? Manipulating DNA just isn't any trick. That one could be some
ancient astronaut with ET-CRISPR alleviating his boredom.
You'd certainly put the message to the test.
What test? Who said anything about a test?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Does it concern cat owners?
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-10 02:47:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:07:46 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 07:09:31 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)
OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?
Pi and e are not statistical variables, they are purely mathematical
values. It's not possible for pi not to be pi, even in God's hands.
The same goes for e. The only variable is in choosing decimal
expression to represent these numbers, and that has limited room
for expression.
The first digits of e are 2.7 1828 1828, if you want to read anything
into or out of that. And pi is 3.14 15 9265.
Your point being?
In the last part: is the meaning not obvious? :-)
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.
And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Each is, in fact, a number
produced by an extremely simple arithmetical formula,
and also fundamental in many mathematical relationships.
You are looking at the point but not seeing it.
Post by Robert Carnegie
There is no pi but pi and God had nothing to do with it.
So where did those messages come from?
The correct interpretation, with pi, is that the
calculation was performed incorrectly.
When done repeately using different algorithms written in different
programming languages by different mathematicians and running on
different hardware architectures? Repeatedly? So _every_ algorithm
we have for computing pi and e are flawed, in _exactly_ the same way?
Details: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_computation_of_π>

You would conclude that some power in this universe
detects that you are computing digits of pi and changes
the result that you get. Including the verification.

This article does indicate that most serious attempts on pi
get some digits wrong, and this was not always detected.
So maybe someone has been interfering all along.

I can add that knowing all of the decimal digits of pi
is not really important. But it is amazing if something
is watching us closely enough to tell when that's what
we're doing.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
You also can postulate mathematics in which numbers
aren't fixed. God seems to have a history of doing that,
such as when 5000 people suddenly need a meal. But then
what good is mathematics? And if God lies about numbers,
is that out of character?
Wrong. Who said that numbers aren't "fixed"? I am not proposing that
pi tomorrow have a different value from pi today. I am proposing that
as we calculated additional digits these messages are discovered.
Or are you laboring under the misconception that the piddling 31
trillion digits we know are even scratching the surface of infinity?
Post by Robert Carnegie
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz_formula_for_?>
describes how to simply and precisely, but rather
inefficiently, calculate pi. It is straightforward
arithmetic and it only gives one answer. And it
doesn't involve God.
Nobody said it gave more than one answer. You are making things up to
attack an argument that was not presented.
Now, run your simple calculation for a hundred trillion digits, a
hundred googol digits, a googolplex digits, how do you know that it
will not reveal the message in question?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Oh, and there are things that wouldn't work if
pi was not reliable.
Who asserted that pi was not reliable? Again you are making things
up. The messages are primordial. They have been there as long as the
universe has existed.
The formula for pi does not even depend on the universe,
except as somewhere to write the answer down.

There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Pi is the wrong object for this.
Pi is precisely the right object for this. You are just thinking on
too small a scale.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Patterns such as e /repeating/ numerals 1828 are
not meaningful.
So? Nobody said anything about patterns such as e repeating numerals.
What was described was something more complex.
Post by Robert Carnegie
I like the sparrow DNA one better.
Why? Manipulating DNA just isn't any trick. That one could be some
ancient astronaut with ET-CRISPR alleviating his boredom.
You'd certainly put the message to the test.
What test? Who said anything about a test?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Does it concern cat owners?
J. Clarke
2019-11-10 03:05:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:07:46 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 07:09:31 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)
OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?
Pi and e are not statistical variables, they are purely mathematical
values. It's not possible for pi not to be pi, even in God's hands.
The same goes for e. The only variable is in choosing decimal
expression to represent these numbers, and that has limited room
for expression.
The first digits of e are 2.7 1828 1828, if you want to read anything
into or out of that. And pi is 3.14 15 9265.
Your point being?
In the last part: is the meaning not obvious? :-)
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.
And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Each is, in fact, a number
produced by an extremely simple arithmetical formula,
and also fundamental in many mathematical relationships.
You are looking at the point but not seeing it.
Post by Robert Carnegie
There is no pi but pi and God had nothing to do with it.
So where did those messages come from?
The correct interpretation, with pi, is that the
calculation was performed incorrectly.
When done repeately using different algorithms written in different
programming languages by different mathematicians and running on
different hardware architectures? Repeatedly? So _every_ algorithm
we have for computing pi and e are flawed, in _exactly_ the same way?
Details: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_computation_of_?>
You would conclude that some power in this universe
detects that you are computing digits of pi and changes
the result that you get. Including the verification.
Nope. Where did I assert that?
This article does indicate that most serious attempts on pi
get some digits wrong, and this was not always detected.
So maybe someone has been interfering all along.
Or maybe humans are not perfect.
I can add that knowing all of the decimal digits of pi
is not really important.
It is not possible in this universe to know all the decimal digits of
pi. There are infinitely many of them and the universe is finite.
Eventually you'll run out of storage.
But it is amazing if something
is watching us closely enough to tell when that's what
we're doing.
Why would anything need to be watching?

You're still missing the point totally.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
You also can postulate mathematics in which numbers
aren't fixed. God seems to have a history of doing that,
such as when 5000 people suddenly need a meal. But then
what good is mathematics? And if God lies about numbers,
is that out of character?
Wrong. Who said that numbers aren't "fixed"? I am not proposing that
pi tomorrow have a different value from pi today. I am proposing that
as we calculated additional digits these messages are discovered.
Or are you laboring under the misconception that the piddling 31
trillion digits we know are even scratching the surface of infinity?
Post by Robert Carnegie
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz_formula_for_?>
describes how to simply and precisely, but rather
inefficiently, calculate pi. It is straightforward
arithmetic and it only gives one answer. And it
doesn't involve God.
Nobody said it gave more than one answer. You are making things up to
attack an argument that was not presented.
Now, run your simple calculation for a hundred trillion digits, a
hundred googol digits, a googolplex digits, how do you know that it
will not reveal the message in question?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Oh, and there are things that wouldn't work if
pi was not reliable.
Who asserted that pi was not reliable? Again you are making things
up. The messages are primordial. They have been there as long as the
universe has existed.
The formula for pi does not even depend on the universe,
except as somewhere to write the answer down.
Suppose that is the case, but the messages are still there. Now what?
There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.
Who said anything about "variations"? You're still attacking a straw
man.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Pi is the wrong object for this.
Pi is precisely the right object for this. You are just thinking on
too small a scale.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Patterns such as e /repeating/ numerals 1828 are
not meaningful.
So? Nobody said anything about patterns such as e repeating numerals.
What was described was something more complex.
Post by Robert Carnegie
I like the sparrow DNA one better.
Why? Manipulating DNA just isn't any trick. That one could be some
ancient astronaut with ET-CRISPR alleviating his boredom.
You'd certainly put the message to the test.
What test? Who said anything about a test?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Does it concern cat owners?
Quadibloc
2019-11-10 22:21:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.
Who said anything about "variations"? You're still attacking a straw
man.
If God wanted to create a Universe in which pi had a message in it, then
presumably He would have to create a Universe in which the rules of logic and
mathematics were such to give rise to pi containing that message.

The rules of logic and mathematics in our Universe seem to be rather simple
ones, not contrived ones.

Of course, that doesn't prevent pi from *having* a message in it, since, after
all, God being God, He is certainly capable of doing a very slick job.

And then there's the possibility that many of the arguments here are missing.

Instead of changing the seemingly random digits of pi, if one wants something
that is arbitrary and contrived that would be *easy* for God to shape and mold
to His purpose, what about the languages we speak, and the alphabets we use to
write them?

John Savard
J. Clarke
2019-11-10 23:32:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 14:21:13 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.
Who said anything about "variations"? You're still attacking a straw
man.
If God wanted to create a Universe in which pi had a message in it, then
presumably He would have to create a Universe in which the rules of logic and
mathematics were such to give rise to pi containing that message.
Not just pi. Pi and e, cross-referenced.
Post by Quadibloc
The rules of logic and mathematics in our Universe seem to be rather simple
ones, not contrived ones.
Of course, that doesn't prevent pi from *having* a message in it, since, after
all, God being God, He is certainly capable of doing a very slick job.
And then there's the possibility that many of the arguments here are missing.
Instead of changing the seemingly random digits of pi, if one wants something
that is arbitrary and contrived that would be *easy* for God to shape and mold
to His purpose, what about the languages we speak, and the alphabets we use to
write them?
Uh, you're still on about "changing the digits". No digits changed.
It came from the factory that way.

Altering our languages so that they correspond to the encoded messages
had not occurred to me. But that is again something that I don't
think a human could do, since it would presupposed knowing that the
messages were there and what encoding they used.
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-11 03:04:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 14:21:13 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.
Who said anything about "variations"? You're still attacking a straw
man.
If God wanted to create a Universe in which pi had a message in it, then
presumably He would have to create a Universe in which the rules of logic and
mathematics were such to give rise to pi containing that message.
Not just pi. Pi and e, cross-referenced.
Post by Quadibloc
The rules of logic and mathematics in our Universe seem to be rather simple
ones, not contrived ones.
Of course, that doesn't prevent pi from *having* a message in it, since, after
all, God being God, He is certainly capable of doing a very slick job.
And then there's the possibility that many of the arguments here are missing.
Instead of changing the seemingly random digits of pi, if one wants something
that is arbitrary and contrived that would be *easy* for God to shape and mold
to His purpose, what about the languages we speak, and the alphabets we use to
write them?
Uh, you're still on about "changing the digits". No digits changed.
It came from the factory that way.
Altering our languages so that they correspond to the encoded messages
had not occurred to me. But that is again something that I don't
think a human could do, since it would presupposed knowing that the
messages were there and what encoding they used.
Well, it could be an act of God to direct human evolution of language
so that "3.1415927", for instance, is a a word. (it spells cadaeibg)

On our own, we've invented "May I have a large container of coffee?"
That's only a similar thing if you really, really want to believe
that it is.
J. Clarke
2019-11-11 03:24:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:04:53 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 14:21:13 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.
Who said anything about "variations"? You're still attacking a straw
man.
If God wanted to create a Universe in which pi had a message in it, then
presumably He would have to create a Universe in which the rules of logic and
mathematics were such to give rise to pi containing that message.
Not just pi. Pi and e, cross-referenced.
Post by Quadibloc
The rules of logic and mathematics in our Universe seem to be rather simple
ones, not contrived ones.
Of course, that doesn't prevent pi from *having* a message in it, since, after
all, God being God, He is certainly capable of doing a very slick job.
And then there's the possibility that many of the arguments here are missing.
Instead of changing the seemingly random digits of pi, if one wants something
that is arbitrary and contrived that would be *easy* for God to shape and mold
to His purpose, what about the languages we speak, and the alphabets we use to
write them?
Uh, you're still on about "changing the digits". No digits changed.
It came from the factory that way.
Altering our languages so that they correspond to the encoded messages
had not occurred to me. But that is again something that I don't
think a human could do, since it would presupposed knowing that the
messages were there and what encoding they used.
Well, it could be an act of God to direct human evolution of language
so that "3.1415927", for instance, is a a word. (it spells cadaeibg)
On our own, we've invented "May I have a large container of coffee?"
That's only a similar thing if you really, really want to believe
that it is.
I think you're still not understanding the hypothetical.

Somewhere in the digits of pi you find
084104105115032105115032097032109101115115097103101032102114111109032071111100046032032089111117032119105108108032102105110100032116104101032115097109101032109101115115097103101032115116097114116105110103032097116032100101099105109097108032112111115105116105111110032056057052053049050056057048049053050056057048053052049050056057048049053056057048050052049057053056056057048052053050049032111102032101046
which is the ASCII representation of: "This is a message from God. You
will find the same message starting at decimal position
8945128901528905412890158902419588904521 of e."

Note that in the hypothetical, the message really does appear in e at
that location, and contains a similar pointer to the location in pi.

So the construction of language would have to support or create those
pointers.
Titus G
2019-11-11 04:00:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:04:53 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 14:21:13 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.
Who said anything about "variations"? You're still attacking a straw
man.
If God wanted to create a Universe in which pi had a message in it, then
presumably He would have to create a Universe in which the rules of logic and
mathematics were such to give rise to pi containing that message.
Not just pi. Pi and e, cross-referenced.
Post by Quadibloc
The rules of logic and mathematics in our Universe seem to be rather simple
ones, not contrived ones.
Of course, that doesn't prevent pi from *having* a message in it, since, after
all, God being God, He is certainly capable of doing a very slick job.
And then there's the possibility that many of the arguments here are missing.
Instead of changing the seemingly random digits of pi, if one wants something
that is arbitrary and contrived that would be *easy* for God to shape and mold
to His purpose, what about the languages we speak, and the alphabets we use to
write them?
Uh, you're still on about "changing the digits". No digits changed.
It came from the factory that way.
Altering our languages so that they correspond to the encoded messages
had not occurred to me. But that is again something that I don't
think a human could do, since it would presupposed knowing that the
messages were there and what encoding they used.
Well, it could be an act of God to direct human evolution of language
so that "3.1415927", for instance, is a a word. (it spells cadaeibg)
On our own, we've invented "May I have a large container of coffee?"
That's only a similar thing if you really, really want to believe
that it is.
I think you're still not understanding the hypothetical.
Somewhere in the digits of pi you find
084104105115032105115032097032109101115115097103101032102114111109032071111100046032032089111117032119105108108032102105110100032116104101032115097109101032109101115115097103101032115116097114116105110103032097116032100101099105109097108032112111115105116105111110032056057052053049050056057048049053050056057048053052049050056057048049053056057048050052049057053056056057048052053050049032111102032101046
which is the ASCII representation of: "This is a message from God. You
will find the same message starting at decimal position
8945128901528905412890158902419588904521 of e."
This can not be possible. If it is true that a perfect God invented
ASCII with built in parity error checking redundancy, then there would
be a generalised saying that: "God works in Mysterious Ways."
Is there such a saying?
Seriously, he should have paid more attention to that snake rather
coding or playing computer games.
Post by J. Clarke
Note that in the hypothetical, the message really does appear in e at
that location, and contains a similar pointer to the location in pi.
So the construction of language would have to support or create those
pointers.
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2019-11-11 12:21:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 20:20:38 -0800 (PST), Peter Trei
Post by Titus G
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:04:53 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 14:21:13 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.
Who said anything about "variations"? You're still attacking a straw
man.
If God wanted to create a Universe in which pi had a message in it, then
presumably He would have to create a Universe in which the rules of logic and
mathematics were such to give rise to pi containing that message.
Not just pi. Pi and e, cross-referenced.
Post by Quadibloc
The rules of logic and mathematics in our Universe seem to be rather simple
ones, not contrived ones.
Of course, that doesn't prevent pi from *having* a message in it, since, after
all, God being God, He is certainly capable of doing a very slick job.
And then there's the possibility that many of the arguments here are missing.
Instead of changing the seemingly random digits of pi, if one wants something
that is arbitrary and contrived that would be *easy* for God to shape and mold
to His purpose, what about the languages we speak, and the alphabets we use to
write them?
Uh, you're still on about "changing the digits". No digits changed.
It came from the factory that way.
Altering our languages so that they correspond to the encoded messages
had not occurred to me. But that is again something that I don't
think a human could do, since it would presupposed knowing that the
messages were there and what encoding they used.
Well, it could be an act of God to direct human evolution of language
so that "3.1415927", for instance, is a a word. (it spells cadaeibg)
On our own, we've invented "May I have a large container of coffee?"
That's only a similar thing if you really, really want to believe
that it is.
I think you're still not understanding the hypothetical.
Somewhere in the digits of pi you find
084104105115032105115032097032109101115115097103101032102114111109032071111100046032032089111117032119105108108032102105110100032116104101032115097109101032109101115115097103101032115116097114116105110103032097116032100101099105109097108032112111115105116105111110032056057052053049050056057048049053050056057048053052049050056057048049053056057048050052049057053056056057048052053050049032111102032101046
which is the ASCII representation of: "This is a message from God. You
will find the same message starting at decimal position
8945128901528905412890158902419588904521 of e."
This can not be possible. If it is true that a perfect God invented
ASCII with built in parity error checking redundancy, then there would
be a generalised saying that: "God works in Mysterious Ways."
Is there such a saying?
Seriously, he should have paid more attention to that snake rather
coding or playing computer games.
Post by J. Clarke
Note that in the hypothetical, the message really does appear in e at
that location, and contains a similar pointer to the location in pi.
So the construction of language would have to support or create those
pointers.
If god uses EBCDIC, we'll never know....
Every version variation its own schism. Sounds reasonable.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
Actually, the Singularity seems rather useful in the entire work avoidance
field. "I _could_ write up that report now but if I put it off, I may well
become a weakly godlike entity, at which point not only will I be able to
type faster but my comments will be more on-target." - James Nicoll
o***@gmail.com
2019-11-11 18:15:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
If god uses EBCDIC, we'll never know....
Horrid guitar tuning.......
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-11 11:43:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:04:53 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 14:21:13 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.
Who said anything about "variations"? You're still attacking a straw
man.
If God wanted to create a Universe in which pi had a message in it, then
presumably He would have to create a Universe in which the rules of logic and
mathematics were such to give rise to pi containing that message.
Not just pi. Pi and e, cross-referenced.
Post by Quadibloc
The rules of logic and mathematics in our Universe seem to be rather simple
ones, not contrived ones.
Of course, that doesn't prevent pi from *having* a message in it, since, after
all, God being God, He is certainly capable of doing a very slick job.
And then there's the possibility that many of the arguments here are missing.
Instead of changing the seemingly random digits of pi, if one wants something
that is arbitrary and contrived that would be *easy* for God to shape and mold
to His purpose, what about the languages we speak, and the alphabets we use to
write them?
Uh, you're still on about "changing the digits". No digits changed.
It came from the factory that way.
Altering our languages so that they correspond to the encoded messages
had not occurred to me. But that is again something that I don't
think a human could do, since it would presupposed knowing that the
messages were there and what encoding they used.
Well, it could be an act of God to direct human evolution of language
so that "3.1415927", for instance, is a a word. (it spells cadaeibg)
On our own, we've invented "May I have a large container of coffee?"
That's only a similar thing if you really, really want to believe
that it is.
I think you're still not understanding the hypothetical.
Somewhere in the digits of pi you find
084104105115032105115032097032109101115115097103101032102114111109032071111100046032032089111117032119105108108032102105110100032116104101032115097109101032109101115115097103101032115116097114116105110103032097116032100101099105109097108032112111115105116105111110032056057052053049050056057048049053050056057048053052049050056057048049053056057048050052049057053056056057048052053050049032111102032101046
which is the ASCII representation of: "This is a message from God. You
will find the same message starting at decimal position
8945128901528905412890158902419588904521 of e."
Note that in the hypothetical, the message really does appear in e at
that location, and contains a similar pointer to the location in pi.
So the construction of language would have to support or create those
pointers.
But there is no such message and there never will be.

On the other hand, God in the bible has a very easy way to get people
to believe in him; dreams and hallucinations. Many bible characters
experience these and find them convincing.

A hallucination of finding a message in pi might be needlesssly elaborate,
but apparently God likes to do things elaborately. Look at Balaam's ass.

Here is the "Leibniz" calculation of pi.

1 - (1/3) + (1/5) - (1/7) + (1/9) - (1/11) + ... keep going ... = pi / 4.

It is just adding and subtracting a series of simple fractions.
The result provides the value of pi. It doesn't work quickly,
but it does work, and there just isn't anywhere to insert
a "message" into this process. Not even for God, unless
God jogs every mathematician's elbow at the same points
in the calculation process. I don't put it past him, but
I consider it cheating.

You are proposing to find a message in pi because pi looks
mysterious - to you. Because /you/ do not understand pi.
But as the Leibniz formula shows, pi is really very simple.
J. Clarke
2019-11-12 00:13:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 03:43:04 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:04:53 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 14:21:13 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.
Who said anything about "variations"? You're still attacking a straw
man.
If God wanted to create a Universe in which pi had a message in it, then
presumably He would have to create a Universe in which the rules of logic and
mathematics were such to give rise to pi containing that message.
Not just pi. Pi and e, cross-referenced.
Post by Quadibloc
The rules of logic and mathematics in our Universe seem to be rather simple
ones, not contrived ones.
Of course, that doesn't prevent pi from *having* a message in it, since, after
all, God being God, He is certainly capable of doing a very slick job.
And then there's the possibility that many of the arguments here are missing.
Instead of changing the seemingly random digits of pi, if one wants something
that is arbitrary and contrived that would be *easy* for God to shape and mold
to His purpose, what about the languages we speak, and the alphabets we use to
write them?
Uh, you're still on about "changing the digits". No digits changed.
It came from the factory that way.
Altering our languages so that they correspond to the encoded messages
had not occurred to me. But that is again something that I don't
think a human could do, since it would presupposed knowing that the
messages were there and what encoding they used.
Well, it could be an act of God to direct human evolution of language
so that "3.1415927", for instance, is a a word. (it spells cadaeibg)
On our own, we've invented "May I have a large container of coffee?"
That's only a similar thing if you really, really want to believe
that it is.
I think you're still not understanding the hypothetical.
Somewhere in the digits of pi you find
084104105115032105115032097032109101115115097103101032102114111109032071111100046032032089111117032119105108108032102105110100032116104101032115097109101032109101115115097103101032115116097114116105110103032097116032100101099105109097108032112111115105116105111110032056057052053049050056057048049053050056057048053052049050056057048049053056057048050052049057053056056057048052053050049032111102032101046
which is the ASCII representation of: "This is a message from God. You
will find the same message starting at decimal position
8945128901528905412890158902419588904521 of e."
Note that in the hypothetical, the message really does appear in e at
that location, and contains a similar pointer to the location in pi.
So the construction of language would have to support or create those
pointers.
But there is no such message and there never will be.
There is a very high probability that you are correct. However no
matter how many digits of pi we calculate, there are still infinitely
many in which it could be present.
Post by Robert Carnegie
On the other hand, God in the bible has a very easy way to get people
to believe in him; dreams and hallucinations. Many bible characters
experience these and find them convincing.
I don't. We are discussing what I would find compelling, not what
some credulous goatherd would find compelling.
Post by Robert Carnegie
A hallucination of finding a message in pi might be needlesssly elaborate,
but apparently God likes to do things elaborately. Look at Balaam's ass.
A hallucination would not be compelling. Whatever condition led to the
hallucination might also form a compulsion, but I am not proposing
mental illness.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Here is the "Leibniz" calculation of pi.
1 - (1/3) + (1/5) - (1/7) + (1/9) - (1/11) + ... keep going ... = pi / 4.
Yes, child. I am aware of it. At one time I could produce the proof.
Post by Robert Carnegie
It is just adding and subtracting a series of simple fractions.
Yes, so?
Post by Robert Carnegie
The result provides the value of pi. It doesn't work quickly,
but it does work, and there just isn't anywhere to insert
a "message" into this process.
YOU ARE NOT HEARING WHAT I AM SAYING. Nothing is "inserted". The
calculation produces the sequence that constitutes the message.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Not even for God, unless
God jogs every mathematician's elbow at the same points
in the calculation process.
There is no requirement for "jogging elbows".
Post by Robert Carnegie
I don't put it past him, but
I consider it cheating.
But that is not what is being proposed.

You have been told this over and over and over again and you have just
ignored it every time.
Post by Robert Carnegie
You are proposing to find a message in pi because pi looks
mysterious - to you.
I have done you the favor of not condescending or insulting your
intelligence. You however seem to have a serious issue with reading
comprehension. Perhaps you should have spent less time learning about
pi and more time learning to read simple declarative sentences.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Because /you/ do not understand pi.
No, /you/ do not understand the English language. _you_ keep
insisting on this idiotic notion of "changing".

Get CHANGING out of your illiterate head.
Post by Robert Carnegie
But as the Leibniz formula shows, pi is really very simple.
I am not "proposing to find a message in pi". I am stating that if
there were such messages, that WERE ALSO IN E, which you do not
address, CROSS-REFERENCED to the ones in pi, which you do not address,
I would find that compelling.

The argument that you keep presenting over and over trying to convince
me of the impossibility of such messages is precisly _why_ they would
be convincing.
Alan Baker
2019-11-12 02:24:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:04:53 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 14:21:13 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.
Who said anything about "variations"? You're still attacking a straw
man.
If God wanted to create a Universe in which pi had a message in it, then
presumably He would have to create a Universe in which the rules of logic and
mathematics were such to give rise to pi containing that message.
Not just pi. Pi and e, cross-referenced.
Post by Quadibloc
The rules of logic and mathematics in our Universe seem to be rather simple
ones, not contrived ones.
Of course, that doesn't prevent pi from *having* a message in it, since, after
all, God being God, He is certainly capable of doing a very slick job.
And then there's the possibility that many of the arguments here are missing.
Instead of changing the seemingly random digits of pi, if one wants something
that is arbitrary and contrived that would be *easy* for God to shape and mold
to His purpose, what about the languages we speak, and the alphabets we use to
write them?
Uh, you're still on about "changing the digits". No digits changed.
It came from the factory that way.
Altering our languages so that they correspond to the encoded messages
had not occurred to me. But that is again something that I don't
think a human could do, since it would presupposed knowing that the
messages were there and what encoding they used.
Well, it could be an act of God to direct human evolution of language
so that "3.1415927", for instance, is a a word. (it spells cadaeibg)
On our own, we've invented "May I have a large container of coffee?"
That's only a similar thing if you really, really want to believe
that it is.
I think you're still not understanding the hypothetical.
Somewhere in the digits of pi you find
084104105115032105115032097032109101115115097103101032102114111109032071111100046032032089111117032119105108108032102105110100032116104101032115097109101032109101115115097103101032115116097114116105110103032097116032100101099105109097108032112111115105116105111110032056057052053049050056057048049053050056057048053052049050056057048049053056057048050052049057053056056057048052053050049032111102032101046
which is the ASCII representation of: "This is a message from God. You
will find the same message starting at decimal position
8945128901528905412890158902419588904521 of e."
Note that in the hypothetical, the message really does appear in e at
that location, and contains a similar pointer to the location in pi.
So the construction of language would have to support or create those
pointers.
But there is no such message and there never will be.
On the other hand, God in the bible has a very easy way to get people
to believe in him; dreams and hallucinations. Many bible characters
experience these and find them convincing.
A hallucination of finding a message in pi might be needlesssly elaborate,
but apparently God likes to do things elaborately. Look at Balaam's ass.
Here is the "Leibniz" calculation of pi.
1 - (1/3) + (1/5) - (1/7) + (1/9) - (1/11) + ... keep going ... = pi / 4.
It is just adding and subtracting a series of simple fractions.
The result provides the value of pi. It doesn't work quickly,
but it does work, and there just isn't anywhere to insert
a "message" into this process. Not even for God, unless
God jogs every mathematician's elbow at the same points
in the calculation process. I don't put it past him, but
I consider it cheating.
You are proposing to find a message in pi because pi looks
mysterious - to you. Because /you/ do not understand pi.
But as the Leibniz formula shows, pi is really very simple.
You are really not getting this.
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-11 02:59:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:07:46 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 07:09:31 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)
OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?
Pi and e are not statistical variables, they are purely mathematical
values. It's not possible for pi not to be pi, even in God's hands.
The same goes for e. The only variable is in choosing decimal
expression to represent these numbers, and that has limited room
for expression.
The first digits of e are 2.7 1828 1828, if you want to read anything
into or out of that. And pi is 3.14 15 9265.
Your point being?
In the last part: is the meaning not obvious? :-)
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.
And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Each is, in fact, a number
produced by an extremely simple arithmetical formula,
and also fundamental in many mathematical relationships.
You are looking at the point but not seeing it.
Post by Robert Carnegie
There is no pi but pi and God had nothing to do with it.
So where did those messages come from?
The correct interpretation, with pi, is that the
calculation was performed incorrectly.
When done repeately using different algorithms written in different
programming languages by different mathematicians and running on
different hardware architectures? Repeatedly? So _every_ algorithm
we have for computing pi and e are flawed, in _exactly_ the same way?
Details: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_computation_of_?>
You would conclude that some power in this universe
detects that you are computing digits of pi and changes
the result that you get. Including the verification.
Nope. Where did I assert that?
Since it is not actually possible that numbers like pi contain
hidden messages, finding such as message means that your calculation
process has done something other than to calculate pi. And since
it happens only when calculating pi, or e, it is a new force of
some kind.
Post by J. Clarke
This article does indicate that most serious attempts on pi
get some digits wrong, and this was not always detected.
So maybe someone has been interfering all along.
Or maybe humans are not perfect.
I can add that knowing all of the decimal digits of pi
is not really important.
It is not possible in this universe to know all the decimal digits of
pi. There are infinitely many of them and the universe is finite.
Eventually you'll run out of storage.
I could have this wrong, but I think that a currently used formula
allows you to calculate any hexadecimal digit of pi on its own,
So you can have any digit that you want.

And in Star Trek novel _Memory Prime_, it's stated offhand that the
great computers that are involved in the story have discovered that
pi is a rational number (a fraction) after all, but they have not
told anybody.

In the universe of _The Ragged Astronauts_, pi is 3, because the
author says so.

But that doesn't make it true, or make it possible.
Post by J. Clarke
But it is amazing if something
is watching us closely enough to tell when that's what
we're doing.
Why would anything need to be watching?
To know when to take away the real pi and insert the substitute.
Post by J. Clarke
You're still missing the point totally.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
You also can postulate mathematics in which numbers
aren't fixed. God seems to have a history of doing that,
such as when 5000 people suddenly need a meal. But then
what good is mathematics? And if God lies about numbers,
is that out of character?
Wrong. Who said that numbers aren't "fixed"? I am not proposing that
pi tomorrow have a different value from pi today. I am proposing that
as we calculated additional digits these messages are discovered.
Or are you laboring under the misconception that the piddling 31
trillion digits we know are even scratching the surface of infinity?
Post by Robert Carnegie
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz_formula_for_?>
describes how to simply and precisely, but rather
inefficiently, calculate pi. It is straightforward
arithmetic and it only gives one answer. And it
doesn't involve God.
Nobody said it gave more than one answer. You are making things up to
attack an argument that was not presented.
Now, run your simple calculation for a hundred trillion digits, a
hundred googol digits, a googolplex digits, how do you know that it
will not reveal the message in question?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Oh, and there are things that wouldn't work if
pi was not reliable.
Who asserted that pi was not reliable? Again you are making things
up. The messages are primordial. They have been there as long as the
universe has existed.
The formula for pi does not even depend on the universe,
except as somewhere to write the answer down.
Suppose that is the case, but the messages are still there. Now what?
There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.
Who said anything about "variations"? You're still attacking a straw
man.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Pi is the wrong object for this.
Pi is precisely the right object for this. You are just thinking on
too small a scale.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Patterns such as e /repeating/ numerals 1828 are
not meaningful.
So? Nobody said anything about patterns such as e repeating numerals.
What was described was something more complex.
Post by Robert Carnegie
I like the sparrow DNA one better.
Why? Manipulating DNA just isn't any trick. That one could be some
ancient astronaut with ET-CRISPR alleviating his boredom.
You'd certainly put the message to the test.
What test? Who said anything about a test?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Does it concern cat owners?
J. Clarke
2019-11-11 03:35:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:59:21 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:07:46 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 07:09:31 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)
OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?
Pi and e are not statistical variables, they are purely mathematical
values. It's not possible for pi not to be pi, even in God's hands.
The same goes for e. The only variable is in choosing decimal
expression to represent these numbers, and that has limited room
for expression.
The first digits of e are 2.7 1828 1828, if you want to read anything
into or out of that. And pi is 3.14 15 9265.
Your point being?
In the last part: is the meaning not obvious? :-)
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.
And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Each is, in fact, a number
produced by an extremely simple arithmetical formula,
and also fundamental in many mathematical relationships.
You are looking at the point but not seeing it.
Post by Robert Carnegie
There is no pi but pi and God had nothing to do with it.
So where did those messages come from?
The correct interpretation, with pi, is that the
calculation was performed incorrectly.
When done repeately using different algorithms written in different
programming languages by different mathematicians and running on
different hardware architectures? Repeatedly? So _every_ algorithm
we have for computing pi and e are flawed, in _exactly_ the same way?
Details: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_computation_of_?>
You would conclude that some power in this universe
detects that you are computing digits of pi and changes
the result that you get. Including the verification.
Nope. Where did I assert that?
Since it is not actually possible that numbers like pi contain
hidden messages,
What prevents it?
Post by Robert Carnegie
finding such as message means that your calculation
process has done something other than to calculate pi.
In that case, our definition of "pi" fails.
Post by Robert Carnegie
And since
it happens only when calculating pi, or e, it is a new force of
some kind.
Why is it a "new force"? Why is it a "force" of any kind?

Pi has x value. In the hypothetical, at certain locations within it
there are sequences that are messages. It was not "changed", they
were not "added", they are simply there, and have been forever.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
This article does indicate that most serious attempts on pi
get some digits wrong, and this was not always detected.
So maybe someone has been interfering all along.
Or maybe humans are not perfect.
I can add that knowing all of the decimal digits of pi
is not really important.
It is not possible in this universe to know all the decimal digits of
pi. There are infinitely many of them and the universe is finite.
Eventually you'll run out of storage.
I could have this wrong, but I think that a currently used formula
allows you to calculate any hexadecimal digit of pi on its own,
So you can have any digit that you want.
There is such an algorithm. What of it? Can you give us the
infinitieth digit of pi?
Post by Robert Carnegie
And in Star Trek novel _Memory Prime_, it's stated offhand that the
great computers that are involved in the story have discovered that
pi is a rational number (a fraction) after all, but they have not
told anybody.
I am happy that I do not read Star Trek novels.
Post by Robert Carnegie
In the universe of _The Ragged Astronauts_, pi is 3, because the
author says so.
But that doesn't make it true, or make it possible.
What of it? I have not asserted that pi is other than it is. I have
asked, what if, in computing digits of pi, we discover a sequence that
is a message, that points to another message in e, which message was
found, and found to point back to the message in pi?

Not "somebody changed pi". Not "letters of the alphabet magically
appear in pi". Just somewhere in its infinitely many digits, this
message was found.

Why are you having so much trouble grasping that notion? It seems
pretty simple and straightforward.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
But it is amazing if something
is watching us closely enough to tell when that's what
we're doing.
Why would anything need to be watching?
To know when to take away the real pi and insert the substitute.
What "substitute"? Why are you insisiting on this "substitute"? You
are looking for a much smaller miracle than the one I am proposing.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
You're still missing the point totally.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
You also can postulate mathematics in which numbers
aren't fixed. God seems to have a history of doing that,
such as when 5000 people suddenly need a meal. But then
what good is mathematics? And if God lies about numbers,
is that out of character?
Wrong. Who said that numbers aren't "fixed"? I am not proposing that
pi tomorrow have a different value from pi today. I am proposing that
as we calculated additional digits these messages are discovered.
Or are you laboring under the misconception that the piddling 31
trillion digits we know are even scratching the surface of infinity?
Post by Robert Carnegie
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz_formula_for_?>
describes how to simply and precisely, but rather
inefficiently, calculate pi. It is straightforward
arithmetic and it only gives one answer. And it
doesn't involve God.
Nobody said it gave more than one answer. You are making things up to
attack an argument that was not presented.
Now, run your simple calculation for a hundred trillion digits, a
hundred googol digits, a googolplex digits, how do you know that it
will not reveal the message in question?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Oh, and there are things that wouldn't work if
pi was not reliable.
Who asserted that pi was not reliable? Again you are making things
up. The messages are primordial. They have been there as long as the
universe has existed.
The formula for pi does not even depend on the universe,
except as somewhere to write the answer down.
Suppose that is the case, but the messages are still there. Now what?
There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.
Who said anything about "variations"? You're still attacking a straw
man.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Pi is the wrong object for this.
Pi is precisely the right object for this. You are just thinking on
too small a scale.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Patterns such as e /repeating/ numerals 1828 are
not meaningful.
So? Nobody said anything about patterns such as e repeating numerals.
What was described was something more complex.
Post by Robert Carnegie
I like the sparrow DNA one better.
Why? Manipulating DNA just isn't any trick. That one could be some
ancient astronaut with ET-CRISPR alleviating his boredom.
You'd certainly put the message to the test.
What test? Who said anything about a test?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Does it concern cat owners?
Paul S Person
2019-11-10 18:03:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:07:46 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 07:09:31 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)
OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?
Pi and e are not statistical variables, they are purely mathematical
values. It's not possible for pi not to be pi, even in God's hands.
The same goes for e. The only variable is in choosing decimal
expression to represent these numbers, and that has limited room
for expression.
The first digits of e are 2.7 1828 1828, if you want to read anything
into or out of that. And pi is 3.14 15 9265.
Your point being?
In the last part: is the meaning not obvious? :-)
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.
And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Each is, in fact, a number
produced by an extremely simple arithmetical formula,
and also fundamental in many mathematical relationships.
You are looking at the point but not seeing it.
Post by Robert Carnegie
There is no pi but pi and God had nothing to do with it.
So where did those messages come from?
The correct interpretation, with pi, is that the
calculation was performed incorrectly.
You also can postulate mathematics in which numbers
aren't fixed. God seems to have a history of doing that,
such as when 5000 people suddenly need a meal. But then
what good is mathematics? And if God lies about numbers,
is that out of character?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz_formula_for_?>
describes how to simply and precisely, but rather
inefficiently, calculate pi. It is straightforward
arithmetic and it only gives one answer. And it
doesn't involve God.
Oh, and there are things that wouldn't work if
pi was not reliable.
Pi is the wrong object for this.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Patterns such as e /repeating/ numerals 1828 are
not meaningful.
So? Nobody said anything about patterns such as e repeating numerals.
What was described was something more complex.
Post by Robert Carnegie
I like the sparrow DNA one better.
Why? Manipulating DNA just isn't any trick. That one could be some
ancient astronaut with ET-CRISPR alleviating his boredom.
You'd certainly put the message to the test.
Does it concern cat owners?
The message is never specified.

However, the /title/ "Though a Sparrow Fall" is a reference to the
Bible, as anyone who read the story back then would have recognized.

I always took it that the message was for the /sparrows/. Although
what sense that would make has always eluded me.

Then again, it was just a short story.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Peter Trei
2019-11-10 20:02:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Oh, and there are things that wouldn't work if
pi was not reliable.
Just a hypothetical: What Real Thing would go wrong if, say, the thousandth
decimal digit pi changed? That is far below the significance of trying to measure
the circumference of the visible universe to the accuracy of quantum noise.

What, specifically, would happen?

pt
Chris Buckley
2019-11-10 21:05:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Robert Carnegie
Oh, and there are things that wouldn't work if
pi was not reliable.
Just a hypothetical: What Real Thing would go wrong if, say, the thousandth
decimal digit pi changed? That is far below the significance of trying to measure
the circumference of the visible universe to the accuracy of quantum noise.
What, specifically, would happen?
The end of everything. Seriously.

As well as being a real world construct (something that can be
measured), pi is also a purely mathematical construct. Its value can
be derived from first principles assuming the laws of arithmetic (for
example, there are provably continued fraction representations of
it). If the thousandth digit changes, that means arithmetic no longer
works (along with lots of other things!). The value of pi is provable,
assuming the basic Peano axioms of the integers.

Chris
Quadibloc
2019-11-10 22:15:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
Just a hypothetical: What Real Thing would go wrong if, say, the thousandth
decimal digit pi changed? That is far below the significance of trying to measure
the circumference of the visible universe to the accuracy of quantum noise.
What, specifically, would happen?
All statements would become true.

Since it is possible to deduce any statement from a false statement, if it
became true that pi had a value other than the one which is an inevitable
logical consequence of Peano's postulate and the other basic axioms of
mathematics...

John Savard
Quadibloc
2019-11-10 22:35:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Peter Trei
Just a hypothetical: What Real Thing would go wrong if, say, the thousandth
decimal digit pi changed? That is far below the significance of trying to measure
the circumference of the visible universe to the accuracy of quantum noise.
What, specifically, would happen?
All statements would become true.
Since it is possible to deduce any statement from a false statement, if it
became true that pi had a value other than the one which is an inevitable
logical consequence of Peano's postulate and the other basic axioms of
mathematics...
And then I see that Chris Buckley beat me to this reply...

John Savard
Titus G
2019-11-11 02:43:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Robert Carnegie
Oh, and there are things that wouldn't work if
pi was not reliable.
Just a hypothetical: What Real Thing would go wrong if, say, the thousandth
decimal digit pi changed? That is far below the significance of trying to measure
the circumference of the visible universe to the accuracy of quantum noise.
What, specifically, would happen?
pt
Probably, and I have no statistics to support this, division by zero
would be possible causing the end of human life from Earth.
Not immediately.
The change would not only have to be identified and verified but also
publicised which will not happen quickly if it will have a negative
effect on feeding the Wall Street vampires so it is another problem for
the mokapuna. (Grandchildren).
Peter Trei
2019-11-11 03:36:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Robert Carnegie
Oh, and there are things that wouldn't work if
pi was not reliable.
Just a hypothetical: What Real Thing would go wrong if, say, the thousandth
decimal digit pi changed? That is far below the significance of trying to measure
the circumference of the visible universe to the accuracy of quantum noise.
What, specifically, would happen?
pt
Probably, and I have no statistics to support this, division by zero
would be possible causing the end of human life from Earth.
Not immediately.
The change would not only have to be identified and verified but also
publicised which will not happen quickly if it will have a negative
effect on feeding the Wall Street vampires so it is another problem for
the mokapuna. (Grandchildren).
Hmmm... pretty much all the reactions I'm seeing are to the effect that its
a horrible idea that could destroy mathematics, the universe we live in,
and would cause cats and dogs live together.

Making mathematics incomplete and inconsistent has already happened (Godel).
The world did not come to an end when he did so.

The suggestions that a infinitesimal change in pi would 'destroy everything'
depends on the assumption that there's functional link between
math and reality, rather than just a correlation between the two. Wigner
spoke of 'The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural
Sciences', and concluded that 'there was no reasonable explanation for it'.

In real physical reality, circles are never actually exactly 2.pi.r in
circumference. Space is everywhere curved, while the mathematical ideal
applies only in a Platonicly ideal perfect plane.

We don't live on a Platonicly ideal perfect plane.

Heck, if your space curves enough, you can show that pi = 4, or is
infinitesimal.

So, I think we can continue to argue that a change in the thousandth digit of
pi wouldn't necessarily change things in the real world much, since its
value already varies by much more than that from place to place. It would
give mathematicians an exciting time though.

pt
Titus G
2019-11-11 04:27:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Titus G
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Robert Carnegie
Oh, and there are things that wouldn't work if
pi was not reliable.
Just a hypothetical: What Real Thing would go wrong if, say, the thousandth
decimal digit pi changed? That is far below the significance of trying to measure
the circumference of the visible universe to the accuracy of quantum noise.
What, specifically, would happen?
pt
Probably, and I have no statistics to support this, division by zero
would be possible causing the end of human life from Earth.
Not immediately.
The change would not only have to be identified and verified but also
publicised which will not happen quickly if it will have a negative
effect on feeding the Wall Street vampires so it is another problem for
the mokapuna. (Grandchildren).
Hmmm... pretty much all the reactions I'm seeing are to the effect that its
a horrible idea that could destroy mathematics, the universe we live in,
and would cause cats and dogs live together.
This is already happening in small rural areas such as Canada with low
feline and canine populations where both are banned from marrying their
cousins and have to seek companionship elsewhere. In England they come
down with the rain. In China, they can be crossminced in Pi and e.

snip for brevity>
Post by Peter Trei
So, I think we can continue to argue that a change in the thousandth digit of
pi wouldn't necessarily change things in the real world much, since its
value already varies by much more than that from place to place. It would
give mathematicians an exciting time though.
pt
Quadibloc
2019-11-11 05:13:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
Making mathematics incomplete and inconsistent has already happened (Godel).
The world did not come to an end when he did so.
Incomplete yes. Inconsistent, no; he proved mathematics was incomplete by
showing that if it were complete, then it would also be inconsistent.
Post by Peter Trei
The suggestions that a infinitesimal change in pi would 'destroy everything'
depends on the assumption that there's functional link between
math and reality, rather than just a correlation between the two. Wigner
spoke of 'The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural
Sciences', and concluded that 'there was no reasonable explanation for it'.
Aside from basic arithmetic, the effectiveness of mathematics indeed is
unreasonable. Unfortunately, that isn't sufficient for your argument, because
while it is a pleasant surprise that calculus is useful for describing the real
world, it is not a surprise, but instead inevitable, that *logic* governs the
real world with an iron fist.

Hence, even an inconsistency in a part of mathematics such as a branch of
abstract algebra with no known physical application - instead of the value of
pi, which sort of corresponds to circular things in the real world - would cause
catastrophe. Except that the catastrophe would have already happened before the
Big Bang, so we wouldn't be here to talk about it.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2019-11-11 23:21:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Peter Trei
The suggestions that a infinitesimal change in pi would 'destroy everything'
depends on the assumption that there's functional link between
math and reality, rather than just a correlation between the two. Wigner
spoke of 'The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural
Sciences', and concluded that 'there was no reasonable explanation for it'.
Aside from basic arithmetic, the effectiveness of mathematics indeed is
unreasonable. Unfortunately, that isn't sufficient for your argument, because
while it is a pleasant surprise that calculus is useful for describing the real
world, it is not a surprise, but instead inevitable, that *logic* governs the
real world with an iron fist.
I am speaking only for myself here, as I haven't discussed these matters with
any practising mathematicians, but I suspect that their *understanding* of
Wigner would be the following:

- Wigner is correct; mathematics is unreasonably effective in describing the physical world, and

- this is _despite_ the fact that people developed basic arithmetic and basic geometry from observations of the physical world, and

- this is also _despite_ the fact that the physical world *must* absolutely obey the laws of mathematics.

*What*? Don't points 1 and 3 contradict each other?

Well I cheated when I said "the" laws of mathematics.

1+1=2 is to some extent a choice. You could take a square, color each of its
four corners a different color - but the same color for each corner on both
sides - and work out a table of what happens when you rotate the square and flip
it over.

Such a table is an operation table for an abstract algebra, just as valid as the
addition table for numbers we're familiar with.

So while it is _not_ unreasonable to expect that the Universe will run by *some*
set of mathematical rules, and obey them with absolute fidelity...

what is amazingly unreasonable is that the set of rules it *does* obey either
is, or is closely approximated by, rules simple enough for us mere humans to be
able to figure out.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2019-11-11 23:31:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
ObSF: The ideas I've expounded in the post to which this is a reply could be
illustrated, crudely, by a science-fiction story like this:

Spacemen land on a planet inhabited by intelligent aliens. They have basic
technology, including electricity.

This is despite the fact that their brains are, for some reason, just incapable
of understanding basic arithmetic. They can count and add numbers on their
fingers... but that's about it. Multiplication and long division are simply
incomprehensible to them.

Therefore, they haven't been able to build digital computers, because they
couldn't understand the principles of their design. (Had they any use for one,
they _could_ perhaps have built a machine like the COLOSSUS because it didn't do
arithmetic.)

However, while they can't multiply numbers themselves... they can exploit one
physical system to emulate the behavior of another physical system. So they *do*
have _analog_ computers.

Those aliens are stumbling along in *our* universe the way we would have to if
we lived in a universe where mathematics wasn't unreasonably effective.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2019-11-12 00:19:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 21:13:49 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Peter Trei
Making mathematics incomplete and inconsistent has already happened (Godel).
The world did not come to an end when he did so.
Incomplete yes. Inconsistent, no; he proved mathematics was incomplete by
showing that if it were complete, then it would also be inconsistent.
Post by Peter Trei
The suggestions that a infinitesimal change in pi would 'destroy everything'
depends on the assumption that there's functional link between
math and reality, rather than just a correlation between the two. Wigner
spoke of 'The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural
Sciences', and concluded that 'there was no reasonable explanation for it'.
Aside from basic arithmetic, the effectiveness of mathematics indeed is
unreasonable. Unfortunately, that isn't sufficient for your argument, because
while it is a pleasant surprise that calculus is useful for describing the real
world, it is not a surprise, but instead inevitable, that *logic* governs the
real world with an iron fist.
In fact it is fortuitous that logic governs the real world. If it did
not then physics as we know it could not work.
Post by Quadibloc
Hence, even an inconsistency in a part of mathematics such as a branch of
abstract algebra with no known physical application - instead of the value of
pi, which sort of corresponds to circular things in the real world - would cause
catastrophe. Except that the catastrophe would have already happened before the
Big Bang, so we wouldn't be here to talk about it.
That would be news to any professor who has ever taught an
introductory abstract algebra course, in which students regularly come
up with inconsistent abstract algebras.
Paul S Person
2019-11-11 18:01:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:36:24 -0800 (PST), Peter Trei
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Titus G
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Robert Carnegie
Oh, and there are things that wouldn't work if
pi was not reliable.
Just a hypothetical: What Real Thing would go wrong if, say, the thousandth
decimal digit pi changed? That is far below the significance of trying to measure
the circumference of the visible universe to the accuracy of quantum noise.
What, specifically, would happen?
pt
Probably, and I have no statistics to support this, division by zero
would be possible causing the end of human life from Earth.
Not immediately.
The change would not only have to be identified and verified but also
publicised which will not happen quickly if it will have a negative
effect on feeding the Wall Street vampires so it is another problem for
the mokapuna. (Grandchildren).
Hmmm... pretty much all the reactions I'm seeing are to the effect that its
a horrible idea that could destroy mathematics, the universe we live in,
and would cause cats and dogs live together.
Making mathematics incomplete and inconsistent has already happened (Godel).
The world did not come to an end when he did so.
The suggestions that a infinitesimal change in pi would 'destroy everything'
depends on the assumption that there's functional link between
math and reality, rather than just a correlation between the two. Wigner
spoke of 'The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural
Sciences', and concluded that 'there was no reasonable explanation for it'.
In real physical reality, circles are never actually exactly 2.pi.r in
circumference. Space is everywhere curved, while the mathematical ideal
applies only in a Platonicly ideal perfect plane.
We don't live on a Platonicly ideal perfect plane.
I suspect that, by "Platoncly", you actually mean "Euclidean".

But I could be wrong.
Post by Peter Trei
Heck, if your space curves enough, you can show that pi = 4, or is
infinitesimal.
So, I think we can continue to argue that a change in the thousandth digit of
pi wouldn't necessarily change things in the real world much, since its
value already varies by much more than that from place to place. It would
give mathematicians an exciting time though.
pt
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-11 02:50:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Robert Carnegie
Oh, and there are things that wouldn't work if
pi was not reliable.
Just a hypothetical: What Real Thing would go wrong if, say, the thousandth
decimal digit pi changed? That is far below the significance of trying to measure
the circumference of the visible universe to the accuracy of quantum noise.
What, specifically, would happen?
pt
I don't know, particularly on the scale that you describe. But, just to
make something up, suppose that the result was a very slightly increased
production of antimatter in particle reactions. It might not wipe out
the universe, but perhaps just planet Earth...

Then there's things like orbits - if orbital mechanics momentarily failed
just as your planet completed a circle-oid path around its star, you
could get a problem that mounts up.
J. Clarke
2019-11-11 03:36:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:50:30 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Robert Carnegie
Oh, and there are things that wouldn't work if
pi was not reliable.
Just a hypothetical: What Real Thing would go wrong if, say, the thousandth
decimal digit pi changed? That is far below the significance of trying to measure
the circumference of the visible universe to the accuracy of quantum noise.
What, specifically, would happen?
pt
I don't know, particularly on the scale that you describe. But, just to
make something up, suppose that the result was a very slightly increased
production of antimatter in particle reactions. It might not wipe out
the universe, but perhaps just planet Earth...
Then there's things like orbits - if orbital mechanics momentarily failed
just as your planet completed a circle-oid path around its star, you
could get a problem that mounts up.
Why would the 97 googolth digit of pi being differnet cause such
changes though?
Peter Trei
2019-11-11 03:51:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:50:30 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Robert Carnegie
Oh, and there are things that wouldn't work if
pi was not reliable.
Just a hypothetical: What Real Thing would go wrong if, say, the thousandth
decimal digit pi changed? That is far below the significance of trying to measure
the circumference of the visible universe to the accuracy of quantum noise.
What, specifically, would happen?
pt
I don't know, particularly on the scale that you describe. But, just to
make something up, suppose that the result was a very slightly increased
production of antimatter in particle reactions. It might not wipe out
the universe, but perhaps just planet Earth...
Then there's things like orbits - if orbital mechanics momentarily failed
just as your planet completed a circle-oid path around its star, you
could get a problem that mounts up.
Why would the 97 googolth digit of pi being differnet cause such
changes though?
That's my point. Once you get beyond 70 digits or so, you cant really come
up with a real world event which could be affected.

The biggest thing anything can affect is the whole visible universe, which is roughly 8.32 x 10^26 meters around.

The Planck length, which is the smallest length at which classical physics
holds, is 1.6 x 10^-35 meters. That's 10^-20 the diameter of a proton.

So, that's a ratio of 1:1.3x10^62 Changing the thousandth decimal digit of pi
simply cant affect anything in the real world.

pt
o***@gmail.com
2019-11-10 03:06:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.
And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.
" claim not in evidence "
J. Clarke
2019-11-10 03:29:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.
And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.
" claim not in evidence "
We are discussing a hypothetical. In a hypothetical, x happens and
then you look at the consequences. You seem to be more interested in
asserting that x didn't happen. So why are you bothering to
participate in this discussion at all? Are you unable to grasp the
notion of a hypothetical? Do you get off on annoying people? What
exactly is your issue here?
o***@gmail.com
2019-11-10 18:41:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.
And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.
" claim not in evidence "
We are discussing a hypothetical. In a hypothetical, x happens and
then you look at the consequences. You seem to be more interested in
asserting that x didn't happen. So why are you bothering to
participate in this discussion at all? Are you unable to grasp the
notion of a hypothetical? Do you get off on annoying people? What
exactly is your issue here?
You may be correct in your repeated personal criticism.

I may have misunderstood or not understood the original (if such existed) claim / argument / subject.

If so, I humbly apologize for invading your personal domain.

If you have the time and inclination, perhaps you can outline the specific subject matter.

If not.........I understand.
J. Clarke
2019-11-10 23:11:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.
And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.
" claim not in evidence "
We are discussing a hypothetical. In a hypothetical, x happens and
then you look at the consequences. You seem to be more interested in
asserting that x didn't happen. So why are you bothering to
participate in this discussion at all? Are you unable to grasp the
notion of a hypothetical? Do you get off on annoying people? What
exactly is your issue here?
You may be correct in your repeated personal criticism.
I may have misunderstood or not understood the original (if such existed) claim / argument / subject.
If so, I humbly apologize for invading your personal domain.
If you have the time and inclination, perhaps you can outline the specific subject matter.
If not.........I understand.
I gave an example of evidence that I would find compelling for the
existence of a deity.

The example was a set of cross-indexed messages found in the digits of
pi and of e. I stated that what I would find compelling is not the
messages, but the cross-indexing.

Let's assume that this happened, and that it was confirmed by multiple
researchers with different biases using different algorithms,
different operating systems, different programming languages,
different hardware architectures, effectively eliminating everything
that could be causing a false result.

Let us further assume that the encoding is so simple and well known
that it is not reasonable to believe that the encoding is "rigged" to
produce these messages.

Let us further assume that they continue to be discovered as more
digits of pi and e are discovered.

If for the sake of argument you assume that these events occurred and
continue to occur, as described, then what explanation can you come up
with that doesn't involve an exceedingly powerful entity with
knowledge of the future?
Quadibloc
2019-11-10 22:25:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
We are discussing a hypothetical. In a hypothetical, x happens and
then you look at the consequences. You seem to be more interested in
asserting that x didn't happen.
How about, since x couldn't possibly happen, I can't even begin to wrap my head
around the consequences of x happening, and trying to do so is not a useful
exercise?

John Savard
J. Clarke
2019-11-10 23:34:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 14:25:47 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
We are discussing a hypothetical. In a hypothetical, x happens and
then you look at the consequences. You seem to be more interested in
asserting that x didn't happen.
How about, since x couldn't possibly happen, I can't even begin to wrap my head
around the consequences of x happening, and trying to do so is not a useful
exercise?
But you have presented no argument explaining why x couldn't possibly
happen.

You seem to be hung up on the notion that the message wasn't there
yesterday and is there today. That is not what was described.
Paul S Person
2019-11-10 18:06:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.
And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.
" claim not in evidence "
Neither is the claim that "pi is pi and nobody nor nothing can change
that".

In fact, about 20 years ago, there was a long-running thread "Jesus
Keeps the Atoms Together" that discussed, precisely, the concept that
our Universe was not, in fact, suitable for life by that God Himself
forced the various fundamental constants into values which permitted
life to exist.

The bottom line, then and here, is that Occam's Razor neatly snips God
away, since we have no way of detecting such a thing and certainly no
evidence that it happens.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Chris Buckley
2019-11-10 21:19:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.
And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.
" claim not in evidence "
Neither is the claim that "pi is pi and nobody nor nothing can change
that".
In fact, about 20 years ago, there was a long-running thread "Jesus
Keeps the Atoms Together" that discussed, precisely, the concept that
our Universe was not, in fact, suitable for life by that God Himself
forced the various fundamental constants into values which permitted
life to exist.
But pi was not one of those constants. Pi can be defined in purely
mathematical terms - its value depends only on arithmetic. To claim its
value can change is to claim that arithmetic is inconsistent. And
arithmetic is a logical construct, not a physical (universe dependent) one.

Chris
J. Clarke
2019-11-10 23:12:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Paul S Person
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.
And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.
" claim not in evidence "
Neither is the claim that "pi is pi and nobody nor nothing can change
that".
In fact, about 20 years ago, there was a long-running thread "Jesus
Keeps the Atoms Together" that discussed, precisely, the concept that
our Universe was not, in fact, suitable for life by that God Himself
forced the various fundamental constants into values which permitted
life to exist.
But pi was not one of those constants. Pi can be defined in purely
mathematical terms - its value depends only on arithmetic. To claim its
value can change is to claim that arithmetic is inconsistent. And
arithmetic is a logical construct, not a physical (universe dependent) one.
Where are you all getting this "value can change" nonsense? I never
said anything like that.
Chris Buckley
2019-11-11 03:41:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Paul S Person
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.
And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.
" claim not in evidence "
Neither is the claim that "pi is pi and nobody nor nothing can change
that".
In fact, about 20 years ago, there was a long-running thread "Jesus
Keeps the Atoms Together" that discussed, precisely, the concept that
our Universe was not, in fact, suitable for life by that God Himself
forced the various fundamental constants into values which permitted
life to exist.
But pi was not one of those constants. Pi can be defined in purely
mathematical terms - its value depends only on arithmetic. To claim its
value can change is to claim that arithmetic is inconsistent. And
arithmetic is a logical construct, not a physical (universe dependent) one.
Where are you all getting this "value can change" nonsense? I never
said anything like that.
I was replying to other people, not you. They introduced this other
class of fundamental constants that can theoretically change in other
universes. Pi cannot. Pi will have the same decimal expansion in all
universes, independent of the existence of God.

As far as your claims go, they are basically sophistry, without much
meaning. I think that most people who investigate would conclude that
pi is normal and probably contains such a message (and its opposite).
But nobody can prove it. Again, the presence of such a message is
independent of the existence of God.

Chris
Titus G
2019-11-11 04:11:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Paul S Person
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.
And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God,
Cthulhu, the Game Master, _something_ has done so.
" claim not in evidence"
Neither is the claim that "pi is pi and nobody nor nothing can
change that".
In fact, about 20 years ago, there was a long-running thread
"Jesus Keeps the Atoms Together" that discussed, precisely, the
concept that our Universe was not, in fact, suitable for life
by that God Himself forced the various fundamental constants
into values which permitted life to exist.
But pi was not one of those constants. Pi can be defined in
purely mathematical terms - its value depends only on arithmetic.
To claim its value can change is to claim that arithmetic is
inconsistent. And arithmetic is a logical construct, not a
physical (universe dependent) one.
Where are you all getting this "value can change" nonsense? I
never said anything like that.
I was replying to other people, not you. They introduced this other
class of fundamental constants that can theoretically change in
other universes. Pi cannot. Pi will have the same decimal expansion
in all universes, independent of the existence of God.
As far as your claims go, they are basically sophistry, without much
meaning. I think that most people who investigate would conclude
that pi is normal and probably contains such a message (and its
opposite). But nobody can prove it. Again, the presence of such a
message is independent of the existence of God.
Chris
Everytime God and Jesus and the Holy Ghost are ready to come back to
Earth, some clown on usenet sets them a puzzle that causes awkwardness
with sections of their Opening Address to Sinners so they hesitate to
rewrite some minor points and next minute, another thousand years have
passed. Am I indignant? Yes.
Dimensional Traveler
2019-11-11 04:15:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Paul S Person
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.
And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.
" claim not in evidence"
Neither is the claim that "pi is pi and nobody nor nothing can change
that".
In fact, about 20 years ago, there was a long-running thread "Jesus
Keeps the Atoms Together" that discussed, precisely, the concept that
our Universe was not, in fact, suitable for life by that God Himself
forced the various fundamental constants into values which permitted
life to exist.
But pi was not one of those constants. Pi can be defined in purely
mathematical terms - its value depends only on arithmetic. To claim its
value can change is to claim that arithmetic is inconsistent. And
arithmetic is a logical construct, not a physical (universe dependent) one.
Where are you all getting this "value can change" nonsense? I never
said anything like that.
I was replying to other people, not you. They introduced this other
class of fundamental constants that can theoretically change in other
universes. Pi cannot. Pi will have the same decimal expansion in all
universes, independent of the existence of God.
As far as your claims go, they are basically sophistry, without much
meaning. I think that most people who investigate would conclude that
pi is normal and probably contains such a message (and its opposite).
But nobody can prove it. Again, the presence of such a message is
independent of the existence of God.
This is reminding me of people "finding" prophetic messages in the bible
by placing the letters in a grid and searching for words in them. (Like
these games: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_search) Then someone
decided to try the same trick on other books of similar length and,
tada!, books like Moby Dick also, somehow!, predicted the 9/11 attacks.
Though of course no one could recognize them until after the fact
because they didn't know what keywords to search for until the event had
occurred.
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
Quadibloc
2019-11-11 05:30:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
This is reminding me of people "finding" prophetic messages in the bible
by placing the letters in a grid and searching for words in them. (Like
these games: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_search) Then someone
decided to try the same trick on other books of similar length and,
tada!, books like Moby Dick also, somehow!, predicted the 9/11 attacks.
Though of course no one could recognize them until after the fact
because they didn't know what keywords to search for until the event had
occurred.
One problem with using pi in a message to prove to aliens that there is
intelligent life on Earth is that pi, unlike e or Euler's constant (.57721...)
is not really unique. Many mathematical formulas using pi use either 2 pi or
pi/2, and so aliens might not even immediately _recognize_ pi if they instead
have a simple symbol for one of those related constants.

But this has given me an idea.

Expressing pi as a sequence of binary digits avoids the pi/2 versus 2 pi
problem, since in that base, one just moves the binary point over.

A Huffman code is a way to compress text, by converting letters into strings of bits the length of which is related to the frequencey of the letters.

So:

Take the text of the King James Bible, and count its letters.

Produce a Huffman code for the English language from that frequency table.

Decode the binary digits of pi with that Huffman code.

Write a book called "The Pi Code" and make piles of money.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2019-11-12 00:31:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 20:15:47 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Paul S Person
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.
And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.
" claim not in evidence"
Neither is the claim that "pi is pi and nobody nor nothing can change
that".
In fact, about 20 years ago, there was a long-running thread "Jesus
Keeps the Atoms Together" that discussed, precisely, the concept that
our Universe was not, in fact, suitable for life by that God Himself
forced the various fundamental constants into values which permitted
life to exist.
But pi was not one of those constants. Pi can be defined in purely
mathematical terms - its value depends only on arithmetic. To claim its
value can change is to claim that arithmetic is inconsistent. And
arithmetic is a logical construct, not a physical (universe dependent) one.
Where are you all getting this "value can change" nonsense? I never
said anything like that.
I was replying to other people, not you. They introduced this other
class of fundamental constants that can theoretically change in other
universes. Pi cannot. Pi will have the same decimal expansion in all
universes, independent of the existence of God.
As far as your claims go, they are basically sophistry, without much
meaning. I think that most people who investigate would conclude that
pi is normal and probably contains such a message (and its opposite).
But nobody can prove it. Again, the presence of such a message is
independent of the existence of God.
This is reminding me of people "finding" prophetic messages in the bible
by placing the letters in a grid and searching for words in them. (Like
these games: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_search) Then someone
decided to try the same trick on other books of similar length and,
tada!, books like Moby Dick also, somehow!, predicted the 9/11 attacks.
Though of course no one could recognize them until after the fact
because they didn't know what keywords to search for until the event had
occurred.
That is actually what led to to speculate in this vein. A friend of
mine was into that and asked me to write a computer program to look
for such messages. I was bored and helped him out with it.

Note that I was totally dismissive of the whole idea of "Bible codes",
and still am. But I got to wondering, is there any kind of code that
I _would_ find compelling, and I came to the conclusion after a while
that something embedded in transcendental numbers had potential. But
not just "messages"--there should be infinitely many sequences in pi
that can be mapped to the complete works of Shakespeare or "The Call
of Cthulhu" or any other sequence of characters you care to mention.
So what would indicate that they were not just random juxtapositions
of digits? And that's what led me to the notion of a cross-reference.
Not just a message, but a pointer to a message somewhere else. And
more than once.
J. Clarke
2019-11-12 00:25:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Paul S Person
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.
And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.
" claim not in evidence "
Neither is the claim that "pi is pi and nobody nor nothing can change
that".
In fact, about 20 years ago, there was a long-running thread "Jesus
Keeps the Atoms Together" that discussed, precisely, the concept that
our Universe was not, in fact, suitable for life by that God Himself
forced the various fundamental constants into values which permitted
life to exist.
But pi was not one of those constants. Pi can be defined in purely
mathematical terms - its value depends only on arithmetic. To claim its
value can change is to claim that arithmetic is inconsistent. And
arithmetic is a logical construct, not a physical (universe dependent) one.
Where are you all getting this "value can change" nonsense? I never
said anything like that.
I was replying to other people, not you. They introduced this other
class of fundamental constants that can theoretically change in other
universes. Pi cannot. Pi will have the same decimal expansion in all
universes, independent of the existence of God.
As far as your claims go, they are basically sophistry, without much
meaning.
The only "claim" have made is that if such messages were found, I
would find it compelling.

If such messages were found, what would _your_ reaction be?
Post by Chris Buckley
I think that most people who investigate would conclude that
pi is normal and probably contains such a message (and its opposite).
You again are missing the point. It is not "a message". It is
multiple messages cross referenced to the same message in a
_different_ transcendental number.

"This is a message from God" would not be at all interesting. "This
is a message from God, you will find the same message starting at
digit <insert huge number here> of e", with such message actually
being present at that location is a different story.f
Post by Chris Buckley
But nobody can prove it.
Of course they can. Compute enough digits and the message will
appear.

What nobody can do is _disprove_ it.
Post by Chris Buckley
Again, the presence of such a message is
independent of the existence of God.
So how did it get there? It is just random chance that there are
hundreds or thousands of messages, each appearing in not one, but
_two_ transcendental numbers, and each _cross-referenced_ to the same
message in the other?
Quadibloc
2019-11-10 22:31:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
In fact, about 20 years ago, there was a long-running thread "Jesus
Keeps the Atoms Together" that discussed, precisely, the concept that
our Universe was not, in fact, suitable for life by that God Himself
forced the various fundamental constants into values which permitted
life to exist.
The bottom line, then and here, is that Occam's Razor neatly snips God
away, since we have no way of detecting such a thing and certainly no
evidence that it happens.
If there are about eleven fundamental constants that determine the nature of the
Universe, and within a small margin of error, every one of them would have to
have the value it has for complex structures such as life to exist, then... at
least unless one accepts the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics so
that only the *weak* anthropic principle is needed...

I'd say there *are* grounds for wondering if something funny is going on.
Unfortunately, though, it's not enough evidence to deduce that not only is there
a God, but He also wants one, say, to accept the literal truth of the Bible as
explained by dispensationalism (which, by splitting the Bible into seven pieces,
prevents it from contradicting itself, so it really can all be literally true).

I mean, what use is it to know that there is some sort of God if we don't know
whether we should throw rocks at homosexuals until they're dead... or share the
sacred herb with them?

John Savard
Paul S Person
2019-11-11 17:56:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 14:31:33 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Paul S Person
In fact, about 20 years ago, there was a long-running thread "Jesus
Keeps the Atoms Together" that discussed, precisely, the concept that
our Universe was not, in fact, suitable for life by that God Himself
forced the various fundamental constants into values which permitted
life to exist.
The bottom line, then and here, is that Occam's Razor neatly snips God
away, since we have no way of detecting such a thing and certainly no
evidence that it happens.
If there are about eleven fundamental constants that determine the nature of the
Universe, and within a small margin of error, every one of them would have to
have the value it has for complex structures such as life to exist, then... at
least unless one accepts the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics so
that only the *weak* anthropic principle is needed...
Here's a question I have been mulling over for some time:

are any of those 11 /continuous/?

The alternative being, of course, that they are all /quantized/?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Paul S Person
2019-11-10 17:58:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 07:09:31 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)
OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?
Pi and e are not statistical variables, they are purely mathematical
values. It's not possible for pi not to be pi, even in God's hands.
The same goes for e. The only variable is in choosing decimal
expression to represent these numbers, and that has limited room
for expression.
The first digits of e are 2.7 1828 1828, if you want to read anything
into or out of that. And pi is 3.14 15 9265.
Your point being?
In the last part: is the meaning not obvious? :-)
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us. Each is, in fact, a number
produced by an extremely simple arithmetical formula,
and also fundamental in many mathematical relationships.
There is no pi but pi and God had nothing to do with it.
Everyone is entitled to his own deeply-held religious beliefs.

Just make certain they are not falsifiable!
Post by Robert Carnegie
Patterns such as e /repeating/ numerals 1828 are
not meaningful.
I like the sparrow DNA one better.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
o***@gmail.com
2019-11-09 18:28:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)
OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
As is the case with most scientists, I wouldn't have one......simply let the date lead me to one.
Post by J. Clarke
Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?
MS Applied Statistics and Stochastic Processes, 1968......when one had to KNOW statistics, rather than just run canned programs.

Reliability engineer at Edwards.
o***@gmail.com
2019-11-09 18:29:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)
OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
As is the case with most scientists, I wouldn't have one......simply let the date lead me to one.
DUH !!

"date" should be data
J. Clarke
2019-11-09 21:43:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)
OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
As is the case with most scientists, I wouldn't have one......simply let the date lead me to one.
DUH !!
"date" should be data
I've given you the data.

You are familiar with pi? A transcendental number, one with
infinitely many digits which while they may be calculated do not show
any identifiable pattern that is simpler than that revealed by
calculating them.

You are familiar with e? Another transcendental number, also with an
infinite number of digits which while they may be calculated do not
show any identifiable pattern that is simpler than that revealed by
calculating them?

Now, we calculate the three googolth digit of pi, and a subsequent
sequence. Someone, by some means, maps this in such a way that it
produces a clear message in English: "This is a message from God, you
will find this idential message, other than the position, at the two
and a half googolth position of e".

Using the same technique, and looking at the two and a half googolth
position of e, we find the same message, only saying that we can find
it starting at the googolth digit of pi.

Now, the immediate suspicion is that somebody rigged it, but there are
a variety of algorithms for calculating the digits of e and of pi, so
the calculation immediately begins again, using a different algorithm,
and for good measure, a different operating system, different
programming language, and different hardware architecture. And there,
again, is the message.

So calculation continues, and at the 3.289 googolth position of pi,
there it is again, again saying to look somewhere in e. And it is
exactly there in e.

And this repeats.

Now, how did it get there other than someone put it there? What do
you call a "someone" who can control the basic nature of the Universe
to that degree?
o***@gmail.com
2019-11-09 22:48:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
What do you call a "someone" who can control the basic nature of the Universe
to that degree?
An imaginary friend of those who haven't reached intellectual puberty.
J. Clarke
2019-11-09 22:57:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by o***@gmail.com
What do you call a "someone" who can control the basic nature of the Universe
to that degree?
An imaginary friend of those who haven't reached intellectual puberty.
I see. So some entity that can embed messages into the basic fabric
of the universe is "an imaginary friend".

So where did those messages come from?
Quadibloc
2019-11-10 01:34:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
I see. So some entity that can embed messages into the basic fabric
of the universe is "an imaginary friend".
So where did those messages come from?
I think his point is that there *can be* no such messages. Period. So it's an
invalid hypothetical.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2019-11-10 01:49:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
I see. So some entity that can embed messages into the basic fabric
of the universe is "an imaginary friend".
So where did those messages come from?
I think his point is that there *can be* no such messages. Period. So it's an
invalid hypothetical.
And my point is that they would be compelling for that reason. Why
are you having so much trouble with that?
o***@gmail.com
2019-11-10 02:58:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
What do you call a "someone" who can control the basic nature of the Universe
to that degree?
An imaginary friend of those who haven't reached intellectual puberty.
I see. So some entity that can embed messages into the basic fabric
of the universe is "an imaginary friend".
So where did those messages come from?
I have yet to see a "message".

( that Hobbs talks to you doesn't mean he talks to me )
J. Clarke
2019-11-10 03:06:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
What do you call a "someone" who can control the basic nature of the Universe
to that degree?
An imaginary friend of those who haven't reached intellectual puberty.
I see. So some entity that can embed messages into the basic fabric
of the universe is "an imaginary friend".
So where did those messages come from?
I have yet to see a "message".
Uh, perhaps you would be happier participating in a forum that does
not involve speculative fiction.
Robert Woodward
2019-11-10 05:58:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
What do you call a "someone" who can control the basic nature of the Universe
to that degree?
An imaginary friend of those who haven't reached intellectual puberty.
I see. So some entity that can embed messages into the basic fabric
of the universe is "an imaginary friend".
So where did those messages come from?
The message can only be seen if English has its current spelling and
alphabet. That is where the message came from.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-------------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
J. Clarke
2019-11-10 06:00:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 21:58:42 -0800, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
What do you call a "someone" who can control the basic nature of the Universe
to that degree?
An imaginary friend of those who haven't reached intellectual puberty.
I see. So some entity that can embed messages into the basic fabric
of the universe is "an imaginary friend".
So where did those messages come from?
The message can only be seen if English has its current spelling and
alphabet. That is where the message came from.
You're not paying attention. No "it". They. Multiple. With
pointers to each other. How did they get there?
Robert Woodward
2019-11-11 05:57:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 21:58:42 -0800, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
What do you call a "someone" who can control the basic nature of the Universe
to that degree?
An imaginary friend of those who haven't reached intellectual puberty.
I see. So some entity that can embed messages into the basic fabric
of the universe is "an imaginary friend".
So where did those messages come from?
The message can only be seen if English has its current spelling and
alphabet. That is where the message came from.
You're not paying attention. No "it". They. Multiple. With
pointers to each other. How did they get there?
Let's assume that a particular sequence of 60 digits can be converted
into a message (including a pointer to another message). The odds that a
particular 60 digit stretch of pi (or e) being that sequence is, IIRC, 1
over 10^60. If you check a sequence of a googol digits (10^100), the
odds for that sequence showing up is rather high. Of course, it will
take time to calculate that many digits and it would be rather difficult
to store them (10^100 being a larger number than total of all particles
in the universe).
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-------------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
J. Clarke
2019-11-12 00:38:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 21:57:15 -0800, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 21:58:42 -0800, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
What do you call a "someone" who can control the basic nature of the
Universe
to that degree?
An imaginary friend of those who haven't reached intellectual puberty.
I see. So some entity that can embed messages into the basic fabric
of the universe is "an imaginary friend".
So where did those messages come from?
The message can only be seen if English has its current spelling and
alphabet. That is where the message came from.
You're not paying attention. No "it". They. Multiple. With
pointers to each other. How did they get there?
Let's assume that a particular sequence of 60 digits can be converted
into a message (including a pointer to another message). The odds that a
particular 60 digit stretch of pi (or e) being that sequence is, IIRC, 1
over 10^60. If you check a sequence of a googol digits (10^100), the
odds for that sequence showing up is rather high. Of course, it will
take time to calculate that many digits and it would be rather difficult
to store them (10^100 being a larger number than total of all particles
in the universe).
To start off with, I gave an example. It came to 405 digits.

Now, you're still not quite getting the feature that would make it
compelling.

It's not just that there are 405 digits that contain a message and a
pointer.

The pointer is _correct_. That is the telling part. You look where
it points and you find what it says you will find there, complete with
a pointer back to the first message, which pointer is also correct.

And this happens multiple times.

Now, what are the odds of that?
David Goldfarb
2019-11-11 07:02:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
You're not paying attention. No "it". They. Multiple. With
pointers to each other. How did they get there?
It hasn't been proven, but it's considered very likely that in both
pi and e, all possible digit sequences occur *somewhere*. If so,
then your messages with pointers do in fact exist...along with an
infinite number of similar messages with pointers that are wrong.

Pure chance. "The Library of Babel".
--
David Goldfarb |"Obviously proud of knowing a word I didn't know,
***@gmail.com |Horace carefully repeated, 'Meretricious!'.
***@ocf.berkeley.edu |Whereupon I replied, 'And a happy new year to you.'"
| -- Isaac Asimov
Moriarty
2019-11-11 20:45:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by J. Clarke
You're not paying attention. No "it". They. Multiple. With
pointers to each other. How did they get there?
It hasn't been proven, but it's considered very likely that in both
pi and e, all possible digit sequences occur *somewhere*. If so,
then your messages with pointers do in fact exist...along with an
infinite number of similar messages with pointers that are wrong.
Quite. If it was actually proven that pi contains any finite sequence of digits an infinite number of times, it wouldn't surprise mathematicians in the slightest.

Conversely, if a finite sequence was found that was proven to NOT be in pi somewhere, it would cause quite a stir.

ObSF: The pi-meter in Greg Bear's "Eon".

-Moriarty
J. Clarke
2019-11-12 00:40:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 12:45:02 -0800 (PST), Moriarty
Post by Moriarty
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by J. Clarke
You're not paying attention. No "it". They. Multiple. With
pointers to each other. How did they get there?
It hasn't been proven, but it's considered very likely that in both
pi and e, all possible digit sequences occur *somewhere*. If so,
then your messages with pointers do in fact exist...along with an
infinite number of similar messages with pointers that are wrong.
Quite. If it was actually proven that pi contains any finite sequence of digits an infinite number of times, it wouldn't surprise mathematicians in the slightest.
Yes, that is why the pointers are a necessity. Will accurate pointers
to the same sequence (aside from the pointer value) in the digits of a
different transcendental number _also_ occur infinitely many times?
With no misses?
Post by Moriarty
Conversely, if a finite sequence was found that was proven to NOT be in pi somewhere, it would cause quite a stir.
ObSF: The pi-meter in Greg Bear's "Eon".
-Moriarty
David Goldfarb
2019-11-12 02:42:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Yes, that is why the pointers are a necessity. Will accurate pointers
to the same sequence (aside from the pointer value) in the digits of a
different transcendental number _also_ occur infinitely many times?
With no misses?
If every possible sequence occurs, then yes, of course. Along with,
as I said, an infinite number of misses. And the complete texts of
the Bible, the Koran, the Diamond Sutra, and _A Song of Ice and Fire_.
Plus all of the above with one typo each. Plus all of the above
with two typos. Et cetera, et cetera, quite literally _ad infinitum_.
--
David Goldfarb | "All around me darkness gathers
***@gmail.com | Fading is the sun that shone
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | We must speak of other matters
| You can be me when I'm gone."
o***@gmail.com
2019-11-12 05:47:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by J. Clarke
Yes, that is why the pointers are a necessity. Will accurate pointers
to the same sequence (aside from the pointer value) in the digits of a
different transcendental number _also_ occur infinitely many times?
With no misses?
If every possible sequence occurs, then yes, of course. Along with,
as I said, an infinite number of misses. And the complete texts of
the Bible, the Koran, the Diamond Sutra, and _A Song of Ice and Fire_.
Plus all of the above with one typo each. Plus all of the above
with two typos. Et cetera, et cetera, quite literally _ad infinitum_.
It's fun reading this stuff.

I feel as if I am sitting in a corner of a late 40's coffee house, with a bunch of Ivy league sophomores on one side of the room and Christian apologists on the other.

I laugh and order another drink.

oz, retired math/physics/engineering prof.....
J. Clarke
2019-11-12 12:46:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by J. Clarke
Yes, that is why the pointers are a necessity. Will accurate pointers
to the same sequence (aside from the pointer value) in the digits of a
different transcendental number _also_ occur infinitely many times?
With no misses?
If every possible sequence occurs, then yes, of course. Along with,
as I said, an infinite number of misses. And the complete texts of
the Bible, the Koran, the Diamond Sutra, and _A Song of Ice and Fire_.
Plus all of the above with one typo each. Plus all of the above
with two typos. Et cetera, et cetera, quite literally _ad infinitum_.
It's fun reading this stuff.
I feel as if I am sitting in a corner of a late 40's coffee house, with a bunch of Ivy league sophomores on one side of the room and Christian apologists on the other.
I laugh and order another drink.
oz, retired math/physics/engineering prof.....
Let me make sure that I understand what your are saying.

You are asserting that there will be infinitely many strings of
numbers in pi, which will appear to contain some message, and have a
pointer to the _same_ string in e, which will in each case have a
pointer back to the string in pi. And that by pure random chance,
these will be sequential, the first one in e points to the first one
in pi, the first one in pi points to the first one in e. And that
there are no such strings with an inaccurate pointer, by pure random
chance?

OK, compute the odds.

P. Taine
2019-11-10 17:42:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)
OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
As is the case with most scientists, I wouldn't have one......simply let the date lead me to one.
DUH !!
"date" should be data
I've given you the data.
You are familiar with pi? A transcendental number, one with
infinitely many digits which while they may be calculated do not show
any identifiable pattern that is simpler than that revealed by
calculating them.
You are familiar with e? Another transcendental number, also with an
infinite number of digits which while they may be calculated do not
show any identifiable pattern that is simpler than that revealed by
calculating them?
Now, we calculate the three googolth digit of pi, and a subsequent
sequence. Someone, by some means, maps this in such a way that it
produces a clear message in English: "This is a message from God, you
will find this idential message, other than the position, at the two
and a half googolth position of e".
Using the same technique, and looking at the two and a half googolth
position of e, we find the same message, only saying that we can find
it starting at the googolth digit of pi.
Now, the immediate suspicion is that somebody rigged it, but there are
a variety of algorithms for calculating the digits of e and of pi, so
the calculation immediately begins again, using a different algorithm,
and for good measure, a different operating system, different
programming language, and different hardware architecture. And there,
again, is the message.
So calculation continues, and at the 3.289 googolth position of pi,
there it is again, again saying to look somewhere in e. And it is
exactly there in e.
And this repeats.
Now, how did it get there other than someone put it there? What do
you call a "someone" who can control the basic nature of the Universe
to that degree?
How about another hypothetical that makes at least as much sense as this one.

If I look up a see a pig flying over, does this imply the existence of the big
sky fairy? Must I reframe the laws of fluid dynamics? Does anyone sell manure
proof umbrellas?

P. Taine
J. Clarke
2019-11-10 17:49:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by P. Taine
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)
OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
As is the case with most scientists, I wouldn't have one......simply let the date lead me to one.
DUH !!
"date" should be data
I've given you the data.
You are familiar with pi? A transcendental number, one with
infinitely many digits which while they may be calculated do not show
any identifiable pattern that is simpler than that revealed by
calculating them.
You are familiar with e? Another transcendental number, also with an
infinite number of digits which while they may be calculated do not
show any identifiable pattern that is simpler than that revealed by
calculating them?
Now, we calculate the three googolth digit of pi, and a subsequent
sequence. Someone, by some means, maps this in such a way that it
produces a clear message in English: "This is a message from God, you
will find this idential message, other than the position, at the two
and a half googolth position of e".
Using the same technique, and looking at the two and a half googolth
position of e, we find the same message, only saying that we can find
it starting at the googolth digit of pi.
Now, the immediate suspicion is that somebody rigged it, but there are
a variety of algorithms for calculating the digits of e and of pi, so
the calculation immediately begins again, using a different algorithm,
and for good measure, a different operating system, different
programming language, and different hardware architecture. And there,
again, is the message.
So calculation continues, and at the 3.289 googolth position of pi,
there it is again, again saying to look somewhere in e. And it is
exactly there in e.
And this repeats.
Now, how did it get there other than someone put it there? What do
you call a "someone" who can control the basic nature of the Universe
to that degree?
How about another hypothetical that makes at least as much sense as this one.
If I look up a see a pig flying over, does this imply the existence of the big
sky fairy? Must I reframe the laws of fluid dynamics? Does anyone sell manure
proof umbrellas?
If I see a pig flying over, I would assume either that I should not
have drunk, smoked, snorted, shot up, or otherwise imbibed whatever I
had recently imbibed. Failing that, and with the existence of the
flying pig firmly established, I would start looking for the very
clever bioengineer.

But we can't alter the value of pi or e through bioengineering.
Paul S Person
2019-11-09 18:49:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 08 Nov 2019 17:42:27 -0500, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
This is called "the God of the Gaps" and it is intellectually lazy, to
say the least.

There was a short story (IIRC, "Though a Sparrow Fall") in which one
of the characters ran sparrow DNA through a code-breaking computer and
found that it did, in fact, contain a message.

But not for us.

Be careful what you wish for.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
James Nicoll
2019-11-09 19:29:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
of the characters ran sparrow DNA through a code-breaking computer and
found that it did, in fact, contain a message.
But not for us.
Be careful what you wish for.
ObSF: Poul Anderson's "The Martyr".
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
David Goldfarb
2019-11-11 07:03:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
of the characters ran sparrow DNA through a code-breaking computer and
found that it did, in fact, contain a message.
But not for us.
Be careful what you wish for.
ObSF: Poul Anderson's "The Martyr".
Also Ted Chiang's "Omphalos".
--
David Goldfarb |
***@gmail.com | Private .sig -- please do not read.
***@ocf.berkeley.edu |
J. Clarke
2019-11-09 21:34:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 10:49:32 -0800, Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 08 Nov 2019 17:42:27 -0500, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
This is called "the God of the Gaps" and it is intellectually lazy, to
say the least.
What, a very large, potentially infinite number of copies of a
message, all embedded in the fundamental fabric of the universe, all
pointing to each other, accurately, all saying that they are a message
from God?

I'm sorry, but there are no "gaps" in this scenario. This isn't a
case where we don't understand something so we say "God did it", this
is a case of something that controls the fundamental fabric of the
Universe says "God did it" in a way that defies any supposition of
"random chance".

If whatever did that is not "God" then what the Hell is it? And
whatever it is, do you _really_ want to piss it off?
Post by Paul S Person
There was a short story (IIRC, "Though a Sparrow Fall") in which one
of the characters ran sparrow DNA through a code-breaking computer and
found that it did, in fact, contain a message.
But not for us.
Be careful what you wish for.
Sparrow DNA is something that _we_ can manipulate.

And I didn't say just "a message". I said it occurs repeatedly.
o***@gmail.com
2019-11-09 22:44:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 10:49:32 -0800, Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 08 Nov 2019 17:42:27 -0500, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
This is called "the God of the Gaps" and it is intellectually lazy, to
say the least.
What, a very large, potentially infinite number of copies of a
message, all embedded in the fundamental fabric of the universe, all
pointing to each other, accurately, all saying that they are a message
from God?
I'm sorry, but there are no "gaps" in this scenario. This isn't a
case where we don't understand something so we say "God did it", this
is a case of something that controls the fundamental fabric of the
Universe says "God did it" in a way that defies any supposition of
"random chance".
If whatever did that is not "God" then what the Hell is it? And
whatever it is, do you _really_ want to piss it off?
BETCHURASS......

I have no invisible friends......nor accept that such exist.
J. Clarke
2019-11-09 23:00:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 10:49:32 -0800, Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 08 Nov 2019 17:42:27 -0500, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.
This is called "the God of the Gaps" and it is intellectually lazy, to
say the least.
What, a very large, potentially infinite number of copies of a
message, all embedded in the fundamental fabric of the universe, all
pointing to each other, accurately, all saying that they are a message
from God?
I'm sorry, but there are no "gaps" in this scenario. This isn't a
case where we don't understand something so we say "God did it", this
is a case of something that controls the fundamental fabric of the
Universe says "God did it" in a way that defies any supposition of
"random chance".
If whatever did that is not "God" then what the Hell is it? And
whatever it is, do you _really_ want to piss it off?
BETCHURASS......
I have no invisible friends......nor accept that such exist.
So when confronted with a phenomenon that is contrary to your
religion, you deny it. But you also deny that you have a religion.
Quadibloc
2019-11-10 01:36:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
So when confronted with a phenomenon that is contrary to your
religion, you deny it. But you also deny that you have a religion.
Before you can accuse him of that, you actually have to *find* the pattern in pi.

Until then, the position that a scenario such as you have described *cannot
possibly happen* and therefore need not be addressed even as a hypothetical is not
an invalid position.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2019-11-10 01:51:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
So when confronted with a phenomenon that is contrary to your
religion, you deny it. But you also deny that you have a religion.
Before you can accuse him of that, you actually have to *find* the pattern in pi.
We're discussing what if. His reaction is that if that occurs he
wills scoff at it.
Post by Quadibloc
Until then, the position that a scenario such as you have described *cannot
possibly happen* and therefore need not be addressed even as a hypothetical is not
an invalid position.
That, Quadi, is what makes it compelling.
o***@gmail.com
2019-11-10 03:03:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
So when confronted with a phenomenon that is contrary to your
religion, you deny it. But you also deny that you have a religion.
Those two sentences are incompatible.

( .....any response beginning with "so" can almost always be interpreted to be the creation of a strawman..........or at least an attempt to deflect )
J. Clarke
2019-11-10 03:07:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
So when confronted with a phenomenon that is contrary to your
religion, you deny it. But you also deny that you have a religion.
Those two sentences are incompatible.
( .....any response beginning with "so" can almost always be interpreted to be the creation of a strawman..........or at least an attempt to deflect )
Says the person who won't address the argument present but instead
just scoffs.
Paul S Person
2019-11-10 18:12:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
So when confronted with a phenomenon that is contrary to your
religion, you deny it. But you also deny that you have a religion.
Those two sentences are incompatible.
( .....any response beginning with "so" can almost always be interpreted to be the creation of a strawman..........or at least an attempt to deflect )
I don't see the incompatibility.

Religions that deny their own nature are not that uncommon.

There is an entire class of religions sharing, as a basic tenet, that
they are not religions.

But perhaps if "ideology" were used instead of "religion" there would
be less animosity.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Paul S Person
2019-11-09 18:46:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....
This sounds like anti-religious fanaticism to me.

But perhaps it actually has a basis in fact. Perhaps I didn't read the
article closely enough.

Then again, I do not equate "RC Church" with "God".

To say that Christianity had an /impact/ on culture is to say the
obvious.

And to admit that the RC Church had an impact on Europe is as well.

Amusing note:

The professor in a history of Christianity I took propounded a theory
of "general influence". He was talking about founding hospitals
(showing no sign of knowing that we got the idea from Islam during the
Crusades) and other positive, benificial influences.

When I suggested that the Holocaust was similarly the result of the
Inquisition, he went ballistic.

Apparently, he wasn't prepared accept the obvious consequences of his
own theory.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
a***@yahoo.com
2019-11-09 19:38:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard
I read somewhere that before the 1900's about 80% of marriages were between second cousins or closer.
Peter Trei
2019-11-10 03:09:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
I'd had thoughts along these lines myself - noticing that in many other cultures
(I was thinking mostly of the Middle East and Africa most people have a 'tribal'
affiliation between close family and the nation-state. This isn't present to any
near the same extent in the West. I did identify the RCC bar on close marriages
as a probable reason for it.

pt
Paul S Person
2019-11-10 18:15:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 19:09:30 -0800 (PST), Peter Trei
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
I'd had thoughts along these lines myself - noticing that in many other cultures
(I was thinking mostly of the Middle East and Africa most people have a 'tribal'
affiliation between close family and the nation-state. This isn't present to any
near the same extent in the West. I did identify the RCC bar on close marriages
as a probable reason for it.
Not currently, no.

But the Franks, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals and so on were tribes.

And Germany was divided for so long, in part, because it was
preserving the tribal structure: Angles, Saxons, and so on, were
/tribes/ before they were mini-states (duchies, palatinates, etc).
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Kevrob
2019-11-10 18:41:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 19:09:30 -0800 (PST), Peter Trei
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
I'd had thoughts along these lines myself - noticing that in many other cultures
(I was thinking mostly of the Middle East and Africa most people have a 'tribal'
affiliation between close family and the nation-state. This isn't present to any
near the same extent in the West. I did identify the RCC bar on close marriages
as a probable reason for it.
Not currently, no.
But the Franks, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals and so on were tribes.
And Germany was divided for so long, in part, because it was
preserving the tribal structure: Angles, Saxons, and so on, were
/tribes/ before they were mini-states (duchies, palatinates, etc).
--
"Tribe" was usually a translation of the Latin "gens,"
which can also mean "nation," though that would have been
prior to the development of the "nation-state."

"Tribus"/tribe was something different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_tribe

Kevin R
Peter Trei
2019-11-10 19:38:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 19:09:30 -0800 (PST), Peter Trei
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
I'd had thoughts along these lines myself - noticing that in many other cultures
(I was thinking mostly of the Middle East and Africa most people have a 'tribal'
affiliation between close family and the nation-state. This isn't present to any
near the same extent in the West. I did identify the RCC bar on close marriages
as a probable reason for it.
Not currently, no.
But the Franks, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals and so on were tribes.
Yes, they were. They aren't anymore. They weren't Catholic at the time we
generally think of them as tribes (Roman and post-Roman period). As
Catholicism clamped down on near-relative marriages, the influence of
tribalism gradually faded, down to the present time. I don't think
anyone considers themselves an Ostrogoth first anymore. Now, people
exhibit primary loyalty to their immediate (nuclear or near nuclear)
family, and to their nation state, without the tribal layer in the
stack.

Humans have a biological tendency to create in-groups and out-groups; just
consider sports fans and their team loyalties. The RCC's marriage restrictions
had the effect of breaking up extended in-breeding relative groups (tribes),
with what the authors consider good effects for society as whole. I tend to
agree with them.

In some other parts of the world, this did not happen.

This site explores the issue in some depth.
https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/page/28/?ref=binfind.com%2Fweb

I note that the extent of RCC influence roughly matches the Hajnal line
as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajnal_line

At least some areas with strong tribal loyalties conflicting with state
operation have very high rates of cousin marriage; for example Pakistan,
where around 60% of marriages are consanguineous.

pt
Jack Bohn
2019-11-11 23:05:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
Humans have a biological tendency to create in-groups and out-groups; just
consider sports fans and their team loyalties. The RCC's marriage restrictions
had the effect of breaking up extended in-breeding relative groups (tribes),
with what the authors consider good effects for society as whole. I tend to
agree with them.
Among the effects listed in the article are: "more individualistic, less conformist, and more trusting of strangers."

But were these desirable before Western culture, or are they from "preaching what you practice"?
Well, on the last one, although a contrarian recently put it that there are reasons to be suspicious of a stranger alone away from everyone who knows him well, we do have the parable of The Good Samaritan, and before that, Lot entertaining angels unawares, and Odin often traveling incognito.

I wonder if church records are enough to know what parts of scripture were given emphasis over time. There is also calls for fair judgement and honest officials, and I wonder what conditions lead to a diminishing of the bribe culture.
--
-Jack
Loading...