Discussion:
YASID, sort of
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Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-28 20:14:19 UTC
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Okay; long long ago, in the 1950s maybe, I read a story in which
the following quotation was quoted:

"There are millions of laws legislators have spoken,
A handful the Creator sent.
The former are being continually broken;
The latter can't even be bent."

I *think* I read it in _Astounding_, but since I can remember
neither title, author, nor the rest of the content of the story,
I can only ask if anybody does.

It came to my mind because I am currently rereading Willis's _To
Say Nothing of the Dog_ and have just come across the part where
the time-travel expert points out that bringing anything into the
future would violate the laws of the space-time continuum,

"and do you know what she said? 'Laws are made to be broken.'"

Makes *me* want to throttle her, and she doesn't even exist.

Anyone happen to remember the source of the verse, either in the
story in probably _Astounding_ or elsewhere?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
David Duffy
2019-11-28 22:56:22 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Okay; long long ago, in the 1950s maybe, I read a story in which
"There are millions of laws legislators have spoken,
A handful the Creator sent.
The former are being continually broken;
The latter can't even be bent."
I *think* I read it in _Astounding_, but since I can remember
neither title, author, nor the rest of the content of the story,
I can only ask if anybody does.
Google says

Randall Garrett and Robert Silverberg _Sound Decision_

https://archive.org/stream/Astounding_v58n02_1956-10_Gorgon776/Astounding_v58n02_1956-10_Gorgon776_djvu.txt

and supposedly from David Gordon _The Ballad of Ways and Means_

The US poet David Gordon (b. 1929) mentioned here
http://languagehat.com/david-gordon-poet/
with a chunk of one poem, including
"To navigate the thick of Ginnunga-gap"
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-28 23:23:06 UTC
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Post by David Duffy
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Okay; long long ago, in the 1950s maybe, I read a story in which
"There are millions of laws legislators have spoken,
A handful the Creator sent.
The former are being continually broken;
The latter can't even be bent."
I *think* I read it in _Astounding_, but since I can remember
neither title, author, nor the rest of the content of the story,
I can only ask if anybody does.
Google says
Randall Garrett and Robert Silverberg _Sound Decision_
https://archive.org/stream/Astounding_v58n02_1956-10_Gorgon776/Astounding_v58n02_1956-10_Gorgon776_djvu.txt
and supposedly from David Gordon _The Ballad of Ways and Means_
The US poet David Gordon (b. 1929) mentioned here
http://languagehat.com/david-gordon-poet/
with a chunk of one poem, including
"To navigate the thick of Ginnunga-gap"
Okay, thank you; I shall look him up.

Even though, on seeing his name, I first thought, "Oh-ho.
ANOTHER of Randall's multitudinous pseudonyms!" But apparently
not.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Peter Trei
2019-11-29 03:56:26 UTC
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Post by David Duffy
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Okay; long long ago, in the 1950s maybe, I read a story in which
"There are millions of laws legislators have spoken,
A handful the Creator sent.
The former are being continually broken;
The latter can't even be bent."
I *think* I read it in _Astounding_, but since I can remember
neither title, author, nor the rest of the content of the story,
I can only ask if anybody does.
Google says
Randall Garrett and Robert Silverberg _Sound Decision_
https://archive.org/stream/Astounding_v58n02_1956-10_Gorgon776/Astounding_v58n02_1956-10_Gorgon776_djvu.txt
and supposedly from David Gordon _The Ballad of Ways and Means_
The US poet David Gordon (b. 1929) mentioned here
http://languagehat.com/david-gordon-poet/
with a chunk of one poem, including
"To navigate the thick of Ginnunga-gap"
Not trying to dispute your attribution, but it sounds very Kipling-esque.

Pt
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-29 05:03:08 UTC
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Post by David Duffy
Post by David Duffy
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Okay; long long ago, in the 1950s maybe, I read a story in which
"There are millions of laws legislators have spoken,
A handful the Creator sent.
The former are being continually broken;
The latter can't even be bent."
I *think* I read it in _Astounding_, but since I can remember
neither title, author, nor the rest of the content of the story,
I can only ask if anybody does.
Google says
Randall Garrett and Robert Silverberg _Sound Decision_
https://archive.org/stream/Astounding_v58n02_1956-10_Gorgon776/Astounding_v58n02_1956-10_Gorgon776_djvu.txt
Post by David Duffy
and supposedly from David Gordon _The Ballad of Ways and Means_
The US poet David Gordon (b. 1929) mentioned here
http://languagehat.com/david-gordon-poet/
with a chunk of one poem, including
"To navigate the thick of Ginnunga-gap"
Not trying to dispute your attribution, but it sounds very Kipling-esque.
Kinda sorta, yes. I shall have to try to look up some of his
work when I have time (WIP stumbling toward a conclusion, looking
back over its shoulder at all the guns it's going to have to go
back and put on mantelpieces).

And btw, "David Gordon" WAS one of Randall's pseudonyms.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-29 09:34:17 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Duffy
Post by David Duffy
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Okay; long long ago, in the 1950s maybe, I read a story in which
"There are millions of laws legislators have spoken,
A handful the Creator sent.
The former are being continually broken;
The latter can't even be bent."
I *think* I read it in _Astounding_, but since I can remember
neither title, author, nor the rest of the content of the story,
I can only ask if anybody does.
Google says
Randall Garrett and Robert Silverberg _Sound Decision_
https://archive.org/stream/Astounding_v58n02_1956-10_Gorgon776/Astounding_v58n02_1956-10_Gorgon776_djvu.txt
Post by David Duffy
and supposedly from David Gordon _The Ballad of Ways and Means_
The US poet David Gordon (b. 1929) mentioned here
http://languagehat.com/david-gordon-poet/
with a chunk of one poem, including
"To navigate the thick of Ginnunga-gap"
Not trying to dispute your attribution, but it sounds very Kipling-esque.
Kinda sorta, yes. I shall have to try to look up some of his
work when I have time (WIP stumbling toward a conclusion, looking
back over its shoulder at all the guns it's going to have to go
back and put on mantelpieces).
And btw, "David Gordon" WAS one of Randall's pseudonyms.
Some real people are named David Gordon as well,
but no one I know. Not that Randall Garrett wasn't
a real person.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-29 17:38:59 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by David Duffy
Post by Peter Trei
Post by David Duffy
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Okay; long long ago, in the 1950s maybe, I read a story in which
"There are millions of laws legislators have spoken,
A handful the Creator sent.
The former are being continually broken;
The latter can't even be bent."
I *think* I read it in _Astounding_, but since I can remember
neither title, author, nor the rest of the content of the story,
I can only ask if anybody does.
Google says
Randall Garrett and Robert Silverberg _Sound Decision_
https://archive.org/stream/Astounding_v58n02_1956-10_Gorgon776/Astounding_v58n02_1956-10_Gorgon776_djvu.txt
Post by Peter Trei
Post by David Duffy
and supposedly from David Gordon _The Ballad of Ways and Means_
The US poet David Gordon (b. 1929) mentioned here
http://languagehat.com/david-gordon-poet/
with a chunk of one poem, including
"To navigate the thick of Ginnunga-gap"
Not trying to dispute your attribution, but it sounds very Kipling-esque.
Kinda sorta, yes. I shall have to try to look up some of his
work when I have time (WIP stumbling toward a conclusion, looking
back over its shoulder at all the guns it's going to have to go
back and put on mantelpieces).
And btw, "David Gordon" WAS one of Randall's pseudonyms.
Some real people are named David Gordon as well,
Indeed, and the poet identified above appears to have been one of
them.
Post by Robert Carnegie
but no one I know. Not that Randall Garrett wasn't
a real person.
He was definitely a real person; he was (inter alia) the deacon
at my wedding. When he was Laurel King of Arms (head heraldic
authority in the SCA) I was his secretary, and the thing I
remember most about that period is the time I pulled open a
drawer in his desk and saw a handgun in it. "Is it loaded?" I
asked, and he said solemnly, "All guns are always loaded." I
don't know whether he meant "You should always keep your guns
loaded," or "Always assume a gun is loaded, because it might be,"
and I didn't ask.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Peter Trei
2019-11-29 18:38:14 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by David Duffy
Post by Peter Trei
Post by David Duffy
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Okay; long long ago, in the 1950s maybe, I read a story in which
"There are millions of laws legislators have spoken,
A handful the Creator sent.
The former are being continually broken;
The latter can't even be bent."
I *think* I read it in _Astounding_, but since I can remember
neither title, author, nor the rest of the content of the story,
I can only ask if anybody does.
Google says
Randall Garrett and Robert Silverberg _Sound Decision_
https://archive.org/stream/Astounding_v58n02_1956-10_Gorgon776/Astounding_v58n02_1956-10_Gorgon776_djvu.txt
Post by Peter Trei
Post by David Duffy
and supposedly from David Gordon _The Ballad of Ways and Means_
The US poet David Gordon (b. 1929) mentioned here
http://languagehat.com/david-gordon-poet/
with a chunk of one poem, including
"To navigate the thick of Ginnunga-gap"
Not trying to dispute your attribution, but it sounds very Kipling-esque.
Kinda sorta, yes. I shall have to try to look up some of his
work when I have time (WIP stumbling toward a conclusion, looking
back over its shoulder at all the guns it's going to have to go
back and put on mantelpieces).
And btw, "David Gordon" WAS one of Randall's pseudonyms.
Some real people are named David Gordon as well,
Indeed, and the poet identified above appears to have been one of
them.
Post by Robert Carnegie
but no one I know. Not that Randall Garrett wasn't
a real person.
He was definitely a real person; he was (inter alia) the deacon
at my wedding. When he was Laurel King of Arms (head heraldic
authority in the SCA) I was his secretary, and the thing I
remember most about that period is the time I pulled open a
drawer in his desk and saw a handgun in it. "Is it loaded?" I
asked, and he said solemnly, "All guns are always loaded." I
don't know whether he meant "You should always keep your guns
loaded," or "Always assume a gun is loaded, because it might be,"
and I didn't ask.
Probably the latter.

In gun safety training, it is always drummed into you that if you can't
for-sure determine that a gun is unloaded, you treat it as loaded - ie,
don't point it at anyone, even just in passing.

Determing that it is unloaded requires removing magazines, ejecting
any stored ammunition, and (importantly) making sure the breech is clear.
If a gun is clear, and you want other people to be aware of it, you put
a (usually bright orange) plastic 'flag' in the breech, which renders the
gun inoperable, and is visible from a distance.

pt
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-29 19:34:21 UTC
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Post by Peter Trei
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
He was definitely a real person; he was (inter alia) the deacon
at my wedding. When he was Laurel King of Arms (head heraldic
authority in the SCA) I was his secretary, and the thing I
remember most about that period is the time I pulled open a
drawer in his desk and saw a handgun in it. "Is it loaded?" I
asked, and he said solemnly, "All guns are always loaded." I
don't know whether he meant "You should always keep your guns
loaded," or "Always assume a gun is loaded, because it might be,"
and I didn't ask.
Probably the latter.
In gun safety training, it is always drummed into you that if you can't
for-sure determine that a gun is unloaded, you treat it as loaded - ie,
don't point it at anyone, even just in passing.
Determing that it is unloaded requires removing magazines, ejecting
any stored ammunition, and (importantly) making sure the breech is clear.
If a gun is clear, and you want other people to be aware of it, you put
a (usually bright orange) plastic 'flag' in the breech, which renders the
gun inoperable, and is visible from a distance.
Good to know.

Mind, Randall did not have one of those gizmoes in his gun, which
probably indicates both meanings were true. I just closed the
drawer (which did not contain the carbon paper I was looking for
anyway) and didn't mention it again.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
danny burstein
2019-11-29 19:46:29 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Mind, Randall did not have one of those gizmoes in his gun, which
probably indicates both meanings were true. I just closed the
drawer (which did not contain the carbon paper I was looking for
anyway) and didn't mention it again.
Gramma, what's this carbon paper of which you speak?
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
***@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
J. Clarke
2019-11-29 19:55:43 UTC
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On Fri, 29 Nov 2019 19:46:29 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
Post by danny burstein
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Mind, Randall did not have one of those gizmoes in his gun, which
probably indicates both meanings were true. I just closed the
drawer (which did not contain the carbon paper I was looking for
anyway) and didn't mention it again.
Gramma, what's this carbon paper of which you speak?
It is a substance used by tailors and seamstresses to transfer
patterns from paper to fabric prior to cutting. Among other uses.
Making copies in a typewriter is not its only use.
Kevrob
2019-11-29 20:50:43 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 29 Nov 2019 19:46:29 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
Post by danny burstein
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Mind, Randall did not have one of those gizmoes in his gun, which
probably indicates both meanings were true. I just closed the
drawer (which did not contain the carbon paper I was looking for
anyway) and didn't mention it again.
Gramma, what's this carbon paper of which you speak?
It is a substance used by tailors and seamstresses to transfer
patterns from paper to fabric prior to cutting. Among other uses.
Making copies in a typewriter is not its only use.
All paper is made of carbon, if it's rag, or pulp, or even
graphene oxide paper. :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene_oxide_paper

Are there exceptions, where paper is made w/o the "Big C?"

Kevin R
Titus G
2019-11-29 21:29:55 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 29 Nov 2019 19:46:29 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
Post by danny burstein
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Mind, Randall did not have one of those gizmoes in his gun, which
probably indicates both meanings were true. I just closed the
drawer (which did not contain the carbon paper I was looking for
anyway) and didn't mention it again.
Gramma, what's this carbon paper of which you speak?
It is a substance used by tailors and seamstresses to transfer
patterns from paper to fabric prior to cutting. Among other uses.
Making copies in a typewriter is not its only use.
What about the "paper" the dentist uses to show where your upper and
lower teeth are meeting after a filling or rebuild of a tooth? Is that a
type of carbon paper?
Post by Kevrob
All paper is made of carbon, if it's rag, or pulp, or even
graphene oxide paper. :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene_oxide_paper
Are there exceptions, where paper is made w/o the "Big C?"
Kevin R
Paper money is now made of plastic.
danny burstein
2019-11-29 21:40:22 UTC
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In <qrs2km$pfs$***@dont-email.me> Titus G <***@nowhere.com> writes:

[snip//]
Post by Titus G
Post by Kevrob
All paper is made of carbon, if it's rag, or pulp, or even
graphene oxide paper. :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene_oxide_paper
Are there exceptions, where paper is made w/o the "Big C?"
Paper money is now made of plastic.
We stll use paper in the 13 colonies.

(Canada and Britain are plastic).

Of course, plastic contains lots of carbon it it, too.
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
***@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
Dimensional Traveler
2019-11-30 00:05:10 UTC
Reply
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Post by danny burstein
[snip//]
Post by Titus G
Post by Kevrob
All paper is made of carbon, if it's rag, or pulp, or even
graphene oxide paper. :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene_oxide_paper
Are there exceptions, where paper is made w/o the "Big C?"
Paper money is now made of plastic.
We stll use paper in the 13 colonies.
(Canada and Britain are plastic).
Of course, plastic contains lots of carbon it it, too.
US money is based on fabric. There may be paper involved but the exact
composition is secret.
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
Peter Trei
2019-11-30 01:41:52 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by danny burstein
[snip//]
Post by Titus G
Post by Kevrob
All paper is made of carbon, if it's rag, or pulp, or even
graphene oxide paper. :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene_oxide_paper
Are there exceptions, where paper is made w/o the "Big C?"
Paper money is now made of plastic.
We stll use paper in the 13 colonies.
(Canada and Britain are plastic).
Of course, plastic contains lots of carbon it it, too.
US money is based on fabric. There may be paper involved but the exact
composition is secret.
Its paper, but made from linen, not woodpulp.

pt
Robert Woodward
2019-11-30 05:35:19 UTC
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Post by Peter Trei
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by danny burstein
[snip//]
Post by Titus G
Post by Kevrob
All paper is made of carbon, if it's rag, or pulp, or even
graphene oxide paper. :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene_oxide_paper
Are there exceptions, where paper is made w/o the "Big C?"
Paper money is now made of plastic.
We stll use paper in the 13 colonies.
(Canada and Britain are plastic).
Of course, plastic contains lots of carbon it it, too.
US money is based on fabric. There may be paper involved but the exact
composition is secret.
Its paper, but made from linen, not woodpulp.
IMHO, the stuff made from woodpulp should be called a paper-like
substance.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Carl Fink
2019-11-30 02:03:15 UTC
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
US money is based on fabric. There may be paper involved but the exact
composition is secret.
If it's secret, how come I've known for decades?
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read John Grant's book, Corrupted Science: http://a.co/9UsUoGu
Dedicated to ... Carl Fink!
Dimensional Traveler
2019-11-30 03:19:31 UTC
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Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
US money is based on fabric. There may be paper involved but the exact
composition is secret.
If it's secret, how come I've known for decades?
Who's that knocking at your door? :)
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
J. Clarke
2019-11-30 03:44:07 UTC
Reply
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Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
US money is based on fabric. There may be paper involved but the exact
composition is secret.
If it's secret, how come I've known for decades?
How did you come to know the exact composition of the paper used in US
money?
Carl Fink
2019-11-30 15:35:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
US money is based on fabric. There may be paper involved but the exact
composition is secret.
If it's secret, how come I've known for decades?
How did you come to know the exact composition of the paper used in US
money?
I read it in a book. It isn't secret (or wasn't then). It's a mixture of
cotton and linen.
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read John Grant's book, Corrupted Science: http://a.co/9UsUoGu
Dedicated to ... Carl Fink!
David DeLaney
2019-12-04 22:58:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Kevrob
All paper is made of carbon, if it's rag, or pulp, or even
graphene oxide paper. :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene_oxide_paper
Are there exceptions, where paper is made w/o the "Big C?"
Paper money is now made of plastic.
And, interestingly enough, one particular Action Comics cover/story I remember
from many decades back has effectively come true now: A plague of some sort
that infected paper money struck the USA, so Superman had to travel around and
destroy the existing stocks of it wherever they were (a combo of heat and X-ray
vision would suffice for a lot of it, I bet). And for the duration, everyone in
the States got and learned how to use (at least one) credit card(s).

The cover was of a kid at a lemonade stand accepting someone's (possibly
Superman's) credit card to pay for the drink. And nowadays we have the
convenient little USB-type attachment to your phone or tablet that lets you
take others' plastic as means of payment - many of you will have seen such at
conventions...

Dave, I actually use some of the bills in my wallet maybe once every several
_months_ these days
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-30 02:53:45 UTC
Reply
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Post by Kevrob
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 29 Nov 2019 19:46:29 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
Post by danny burstein
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Mind, Randall did not have one of those gizmoes in his gun, which
probably indicates both meanings were true. I just closed the
drawer (which did not contain the carbon paper I was looking for
anyway) and didn't mention it again.
Gramma, what's this carbon paper of which you speak?
It is a substance used by tailors and seamstresses to transfer
patterns from paper to fabric prior to cutting. Among other uses.
Making copies in a typewriter is not its only use.
All paper is made of carbon, if it's rag, or pulp, or even
graphene oxide paper. :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene_oxide_paper
Are there exceptions, where paper is made w/o the "Big C?"
It looks like "silicone paper" - used in baking for
instance - is actually a no; it just has a coating
of that stuff on it, on more-or-less normal paper?

You can write on slate if you want to, but I'd need
a good reason for arguing that that is "paper".
Although... the process of its formation is
somewhat similar... but slower.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-29 23:25:34 UTC
Reply
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Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 29 Nov 2019 19:46:29 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
Post by danny burstein
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Mind, Randall did not have one of those gizmoes in his gun, which
probably indicates both meanings were true. I just closed the
drawer (which did not contain the carbon paper I was looking for
anyway) and didn't mention it again.
Gramma, what's this carbon paper of which you speak?
It is a substance used by tailors and seamstresses to transfer
patterns from paper to fabric prior to cutting. Among other uses.
Making copies in a typewriter is not its only use.
Although the stuff you use for pattern pieces isn't the same we
used for typed copies. For one, IIRC find any of the latter that
wasn't black was like searching for uranium without a Geiger
counter. I believe it existed, but I never saw any.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-29 23:24:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by danny burstein
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Mind, Randall did not have one of those gizmoes in his gun, which
probably indicates both meanings were true. I just closed the
drawer (which did not contain the carbon paper I was looking for
anyway) and didn't mention it again.
Gramma, what's this carbon paper of which you speak?
It's what we had before Xerox. We're talking about maybe 2 A.S.,
1968 C.E.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
p***@hotmail.com
2019-11-29 20:40:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
He was definitely a real person; he was (inter alia) the deacon
at my wedding. When he was Laurel King of Arms (head heraldic
authority in the SCA) I was his secretary, and the thing I
remember most about that period is the time I pulled open a
drawer in his desk and saw a handgun in it. "Is it loaded?" I
asked, and he said solemnly, "All guns are always loaded." I
don't know whether he meant "You should always keep your guns
loaded," or "Always assume a gun is loaded, because it might be,"
and I didn't ask.
Probably the latter.
In gun safety training, it is always drummed into you that if you can't
for-sure determine that a gun is unloaded, you treat it as loaded - ie,
don't point it at anyone, even just in passing.
Determing that it is unloaded requires removing magazines, ejecting
any stored ammunition, and (importantly) making sure the breech is clear.
If a gun is clear, and you want other people to be aware of it, you put
a (usually bright orange) plastic 'flag' in the breech, which renders the
gun inoperable, and is visible from a distance.
Good to know.
Mind, Randall did not have one of those gizmoes in his gun, which
probably indicates both meanings were true. I just closed the
drawer (which did not contain the carbon paper I was looking for
anyway) and didn't mention it again.
Purpose built plastic 'flags' in high-visibility colors were likely not
yet mass produced at that time. People used a variety of improvised
devices, for example, a dealer at a gun show might string a length of
cord through the open frames of revolvers on their display table, or
through the barrels of autoloading pistols with their slides locked back.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Scott Lurndal
2019-11-29 22:07:34 UTC
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Post by Peter Trei
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
He was definitely a real person; he was (inter alia) the deacon
at my wedding. When he was Laurel King of Arms (head heraldic
authority in the SCA) I was his secretary, and the thing I
remember most about that period is the time I pulled open a
drawer in his desk and saw a handgun in it. "Is it loaded?" I
asked, and he said solemnly, "All guns are always loaded." I
don't know whether he meant "You should always keep your guns
loaded," or "Always assume a gun is loaded, because it might be,"
and I didn't ask.
Probably the latter.
In gun safety training, it is always drummed into you that if you can't
for-sure determine that a gun is unloaded, you treat it as loaded - ie,
don't point it at anyone, even just in passing.
Determing that it is unloaded requires removing magazines, ejecting
any stored ammunition, and (importantly) making sure the breech is clear.
If a gun is clear, and you want other people to be aware of it, you put
a (usually bright orange) plastic 'flag' in the breech, which renders the
gun inoperable, and is visible from a distance.
Or remove the bolt on a bolt-action longarm.
Alan Baker
2019-11-30 18:27:29 UTC
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Post by Peter Trei
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by David Duffy
Post by Peter Trei
Post by David Duffy
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Okay; long long ago, in the 1950s maybe, I read a story in which
"There are millions of laws legislators have spoken,
A handful the Creator sent.
The former are being continually broken;
The latter can't even be bent."
I *think* I read it in _Astounding_, but since I can remember
neither title, author, nor the rest of the content of the story,
I can only ask if anybody does.
Google says
Randall Garrett and Robert Silverberg _Sound Decision_
https://archive.org/stream/Astounding_v58n02_1956-10_Gorgon776/Astounding_v58n02_1956-10_Gorgon776_djvu.txt
Post by Peter Trei
Post by David Duffy
and supposedly from David Gordon _The Ballad of Ways and Means_
The US poet David Gordon (b. 1929) mentioned here
http://languagehat.com/david-gordon-poet/
with a chunk of one poem, including
"To navigate the thick of Ginnunga-gap"
Not trying to dispute your attribution, but it sounds very Kipling-esque.
Kinda sorta, yes. I shall have to try to look up some of his
work when I have time (WIP stumbling toward a conclusion, looking
back over its shoulder at all the guns it's going to have to go
back and put on mantelpieces).
And btw, "David Gordon" WAS one of Randall's pseudonyms.
Some real people are named David Gordon as well,
Indeed, and the poet identified above appears to have been one of
them.
Post by Robert Carnegie
but no one I know. Not that Randall Garrett wasn't
a real person.
He was definitely a real person; he was (inter alia) the deacon
at my wedding. When he was Laurel King of Arms (head heraldic
authority in the SCA) I was his secretary, and the thing I
remember most about that period is the time I pulled open a
drawer in his desk and saw a handgun in it. "Is it loaded?" I
asked, and he said solemnly, "All guns are always loaded." I
don't know whether he meant "You should always keep your guns
loaded," or "Always assume a gun is loaded, because it might be,"
and I didn't ask.
Probably the latter.
In gun safety training, it is always drummed into you that if you can't
for-sure determine that a gun is unloaded, you treat it as loaded - ie,
don't point it at anyone, even just in passing.
Determing that it is unloaded requires removing magazines, ejecting
any stored ammunition, and (importantly) making sure the breech is clear.
If a gun is clear, and you want other people to be aware of it, you put
a (usually bright orange) plastic 'flag' in the breech, which renders the
gun inoperable, and is visible from a distance.
I was in Los Angeles doing some computer support for a client who
thought enough of my work that he would fly me in from Vancouver to work
on his systems.

As I was working, I happened to notice the grip of an automatic pistol
between his computer tower and drive tower. Having had firearms safety
drummed into me from an early age, I immediately made sure the weapon
was clear. Turns out it didn't have a magazine in it, and the breech was
clear, so I put it back where I found it.

When Ted came home, and asked me about how things had gone, I reported
all was well with his computer, and then casually mentioned that he'd
left his Beretta out. He told me that he kept it there for protection,
which puzzled me as it was empty.

Then he showed me how a magazine was hidden in nearly plain sight
immediately behind the higher rear edge of the keyboard...

:-)
Mike Van Pelt
2019-12-03 21:10:21 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
In gun safety training, it is always drummed into you that if you can't
for-sure determine that a gun is unloaded, you treat it as loaded - ie,
don't point it at anyone, even just in passing.
Determing that it is unloaded requires removing magazines, ejecting
any stored ammunition, and (importantly) making sure the breech is clear.
If a gun is clear, and you want other people to be aware of it, you put
a (usually bright orange) plastic 'flag' in the breech, which renders the
gun inoperable, and is visible from a distance.
Reminds me of a police officer friend way back when -- we were visiting,
and my wife expressed some curiousity about his service weapon. He
popped out the magazine and handed it to her.

I said "Excuse me", grabbed it, and racked the slide.

I wanted to say something really caustic, up to possibly attempting
to slap the stupid out of him, but I guess the 9mm cartridge spinning
around on the table said it more eloquently than anything I could
have come up with at short notice.
--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston
Jay E. Morris
2019-11-30 16:20:35 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"Is it loaded?" I
asked, and he said solemnly, "All guns are always loaded." I
don't know whether he meant "You should always keep your guns
loaded," or "Always assume a gun is loaded, because it might be,"
and I didn't ask.
Yes.
James Nicoll
2019-11-30 16:32:51 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"Is it loaded?" I
asked, and he said solemnly, "All guns are always loaded." I
don't know whether he meant "You should always keep your guns
loaded," or "Always assume a gun is loaded, because it might be,"
and I didn't ask.
Yes.
I have a funny story about a classmate who shot another classmate with
a gun they both were sure was unloaded. It wasn't an immediately serious
wound and they considered just not telling their parents one of them had
been shot in the abdomen, on account of the shouting that would follow.
It's funny because they did in the end seek medical treatment and nobody died.

(I have never been shot or shot at, although I have been near where some
fool I couldn't see and who could not see me aimed their gun.)
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-30 16:44:54 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"Is it loaded?" I
asked, and he said solemnly, "All guns are always loaded." I
don't know whether he meant "You should always keep your guns
loaded," or "Always assume a gun is loaded, because it might be,"
and I didn't ask.
Yes.
I have a funny story about a classmate who shot another classmate with
a gun they both were sure was unloaded. It wasn't an immediately serious
wound and they considered just not telling their parents one of them had
been shot in the abdomen, on account of the shouting that would follow.
It's funny because they did in the end seek medical treatment and nobody died.
Whew.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
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