Discussion:
[tor dot com] Sorry to Crush Your Dreams
(too old to reply)
James Nicoll
2018-10-05 14:22:36 UTC
Permalink
Sorry to Crush Your Dreams, But We're Not Colonizing Space Anytime Soon

https://www.tor.com/2018/10/05/sorry-to-crush-your-dreams-but-were-not-colonizing-space-anytime-soon/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Quadibloc
2018-10-05 15:01:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Sorry to Crush Your Dreams, But We're Not Colonizing Space Anytime Soon
https://www.tor.com/2018/10/05/sorry-to-crush-your-dreams-but-were-not-colonizing-space-anytime-soon/
It's certainly true that there's little reason to expect that we will be
colonizing space soon.

However, the Lunar Gateway appears to be the first step to doing just that very
thing. It will be ironic if the human race has Donald Trump to thank for its
long-term survival...

John Savard
David Johnston
2018-10-05 16:08:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
Sorry to Crush Your Dreams, But We're Not Colonizing Space Anytime Soon
https://www.tor.com/2018/10/05/sorry-to-crush-your-dreams-but-were-not-colonizing-space-anytime-soon/
It's certainly true that there's little reason to expect that we will be
colonizing space soon.
However, the Lunar Gateway appears to be the first step to doing just that very
thing. It will be ironic if the human race has Donald Trump to thank for its
long-term survival...
John Savard
Since Trump is not actually doing anything to secure funding for such a
thing, fat chance.
m***@sky.com
2018-10-05 16:02:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Sorry to Crush Your Dreams, But We're Not Colonizing Space Anytime Soon
https://www.tor.com/2018/10/05/sorry-to-crush-your-dreams-but-were-not-colonizing-space-anytime-soon/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
A good deal of Science Fiction can be read as a hymn to the benefits of diversity: we could learn from other cultures. An alien viewpoint might see a solution to a problem that no human could find. So for a long time I thought "If we can't meet aliens, can we create them?" If Science Fiction is correct, this would be a strategic advantage. I can think of one way of creating aliens from different cultures. The quote goes "The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there." We have enough information to recreate cultures that raised geniuses: there is good evidence on the backgrounds of Darwin, Galton, Maxwell, and others, and they come from a distinctively different era - but one sufficiently technological that they wouldn't be completely lost in the modern world.

But on further reflection, it all falls apart. These people did come from a different culture, and probably would have a distinctively different viewpoint on modern problems. In our light, their background was impoverished enough that it might be practical to recreate much of it - perhaps under a cover of historical re-enactment. But unfortunately some parts of their culture that persist to the present day are precisely what many people have waged war against. The minute they voiced a diverse viewpoint that was distinctively different, some modern people would find them outrageously offensive. The one alien culture that some people who declare themselves to be tolerant find unacceptable is our own culture of decades or centuries ago. So my scheme for "if you can't go out and meet aliens, you need to create them here," dies stillborn.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-10-05 18:28:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Sorry to Crush Your Dreams, But We're Not Colonizing Space Anytime Soon
https://www.tor.com/2018/10/05/sorry-to-crush-your-dreams-but-were-not-colonizing-space-anytime-soon/
Post by James Nicoll
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
A good deal of Science Fiction can be read as a hymn to the benefits of
diversity: we could learn from other cultures. An alien viewpoint might
see a solution to a problem that no human could find. So for a long time
I thought "If we can't meet aliens, can we create them?" If Science
Fiction is correct, this would be a strategic advantage. I can think of
one way of creating aliens from different cultures. The quote goes "The
past is a foreign country: they do things differently there."
Nitpick: "the past is another country." And the narrator, now
getting on in years, is thinking about the days of his youth.

We have
Post by James Nicoll
enough information to recreate cultures that raised geniuses: there is
good evidence on the backgrounds of Darwin, Galton, Maxwell, and others,
and they come from a distinctively different era - but one sufficiently
technological that they wouldn't be completely lost in the modern world.
But on further reflection, it all falls apart. These people did come
from a different culture,
This is the whole point. We have people from different cultures
right now.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Peter Trei
2018-10-05 20:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Sorry to Crush Your Dreams, But We're Not Colonizing Space Anytime Soon
https://www.tor.com/2018/10/05/sorry-to-crush-your-dreams-but-were-not-colonizing-space-anytime-soon/
Post by James Nicoll
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
A good deal of Science Fiction can be read as a hymn to the benefits of
diversity: we could learn from other cultures. An alien viewpoint might
see a solution to a problem that no human could find. So for a long time
I thought "If we can't meet aliens, can we create them?" If Science
Fiction is correct, this would be a strategic advantage. I can think of
one way of creating aliens from different cultures. The quote goes "The
past is a foreign country: they do things differently there."
Nitpick: "the past is another country." And the narrator, now
getting on in years, is thinking about the days of his youth.
Double nitpick.

LP Hartley, in 'The Go-Between', wrote "The past is a foreign country: they do
things differently there."

The 'another' misquote does not appear before the late 70s.

pt
Quadibloc
2018-10-05 20:10:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by m***@sky.com
The quote goes "The
past is a foreign country: they do things differently there."
Nitpick: "the past is another country." And the narrator, now
getting on in years, is thinking about the days of his youth.
Double nitpick.
LP Hartley, in 'The Go-Between', wrote "The past is a foreign country: they do
things differently there."
The 'another' misquote does not appear before the late 70s.
And for some reason, I thought the quote originally was in French.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2018-10-05 20:42:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by m***@sky.com
The quote goes "The
past is a foreign country: they do things differently there."
Nitpick: "the past is another country." And the narrator, now
getting on in years, is thinking about the days of his youth.
Double nitpick.
LP Hartley, in 'The Go-Between', wrote "The past is a foreign country: they do
things differently there."
The 'another' misquote does not appear before the late 70s.
And for some reason, I thought the quote originally was in French.
Looking around, all I've found is this site

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/selcs/study/undergraduate/modules/finalyear-2018-19/finalyear-2018-19/fren0031-medieval-french-literature

with the following variant attribution:

According to H. E. Bates’s famous dictum, ‘The past is another country – they do
things differently there’.

John Savard
Peter Trei
2018-10-05 20:54:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by m***@sky.com
The quote goes "The
past is a foreign country: they do things differently there."
Nitpick: "the past is another country." And the narrator, now
getting on in years, is thinking about the days of his youth.
Double nitpick.
LP Hartley, in 'The Go-Between', wrote "The past is a foreign country: they do
things differently there."
The 'another' misquote does not appear before the late 70s.
And for some reason, I thought the quote originally was in French.
Looking around, all I've found is this site
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/selcs/study/undergraduate/modules/finalyear-2018-19/finalyear-2018-19/fren0031-medieval-french-literature
According to H. E. Bates’s famous dictum, ‘The past is another country –
they do things differently there’.
I'm curious if you can find that actual quote, in a work by Bates. I've also
seen it attributed to Maureen S. O'Brien

I actually checked "The Go-Between" to make sure I had it right.

pt
Joe Bernstein
2018-10-05 22:52:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
According to H. E. Bates’s famous dictum, ‘The past is an
other country â€"
they do things differently there’.
I'm curious if you can find that actual quote, in a work by Bates.
I've also seen it attributed to Maureen S. O'Brien
Which Maureen S. O'Brien? The translator, the singer, or the random
citizen? Searching for that name gets me very odd results. I don't
see how any of the ones I found can have originated the saying,
especially since it was one my mother sometimes said.

Bates, on the other hand, seems like an entertaining project. I
really liked the TV show <The Darling Buds of May> - admittedly,
largely because of the ingenue - and am not averse to doing some
reading.

But now that I know who Hartley was (I'd thought you were citing a
minor sf novelist), I suspect you're right. The odds are pretty good
that my parents would've read <The Go-Between>, which accounts for
Mom, and there was a movie, which accounts for general knowledge, as
long as the line stayed in. Supporting Hartley's claim, a biography
of him is titled <Foreign Country>.

But the plot thickens. English Wikipedia sv <The Go-Between> says:

| Paul Binding has pointed out that its famous opening phrase, "The
| past is a foreign country", had first been used by Hartley’s friend
| Lord David Cecil in his inaugural lecture as Goldsmith's Professor
| in 1949.

Cecil's article, linked, doesn't mention this. There's a footnote:

| Paul Binding, "A cindery path out of childhood", The Independent, 9
| March 1996
with a link:
<https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/a-cindery-path-out-of-childhood-1341042.html>
It turns out to be a review of the biography mentioned above, and
the reviewer's complaint about the biographer's hostility to Cecil is
the context for this:

} In fact this biography's very title, deriving from the opening
} sentence of The Go-Between, can itself be traced to David Cecil,
} who used the phrase with reference to the past in his inaugural
} lecture as Goldsmith's Professor in 1949.

I don't yet know whether I can find that lecture.

-- JLB
Peter Trei
2018-10-08 14:01:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Quadibloc
According to H. E. Bates’s famous dictum, ‘The past is an
other country �€"
they do things differently there’.
I'm curious if you can find that actual quote, in a work by Bates.
I've also seen it attributed to Maureen S. O'Brien
Which Maureen S. O'Brien? The translator, the singer, or the random
citizen? Searching for that name gets me very odd results. I don't
see how any of the ones I found can have originated the saying,
especially since it was one my mother sometimes said.
Late reply, sorry:

I don't know which O'Brien. I found the attribution in the comments section
of a 'famous quotations' webpage. The comment also indicated that she was
known as the writer of some Sherlock Holmes stories. I think its a pretty
weak attribution.
Post by Joe Bernstein
Bates, on the other hand, seems like an entertaining project. I
really liked the TV show <The Darling Buds of May> - admittedly,
largely because of the ingenue - and am not averse to doing some
reading.
But now that I know who Hartley was (I'd thought you were citing a
minor sf novelist), I suspect you're right. The odds are pretty good
that my parents would've read <The Go-Between>, which accounts for
Mom, and there was a movie, which accounts for general knowledge, as
long as the line stayed in. Supporting Hartley's claim, a biography
of him is titled <Foreign Country>.
| Paul Binding has pointed out that its famous opening phrase, "The
| past is a foreign country", had first been used by Hartley’s friend
| Lord David Cecil in his inaugural lecture as Goldsmith's Professor
| in 1949.
| Paul Binding, "A cindery path out of childhood", The Independent, 9
| March 1996
<https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/a-cindery-path-out-of-childhood-1341042.html>
It turns out to be a review of the biography mentioned above, and
the reviewer's complaint about the biographer's hostility to Cecil is
} In fact this biography's very title, deriving from the opening
} sentence of The Go-Between, can itself be traced to David Cecil,
} who used the phrase with reference to the past in his inaugural
} lecture as Goldsmith's Professor in 1949.
I don't yet know whether I can find that lecture.
-- JLB
Interesting! Hartley uses it without attribution, or indication that its
a quote.

pt
Kevrob
2018-10-06 16:49:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by m***@sky.com
The quote goes "The
past is a foreign country: they do things differently there."
Nitpick: "the past is another country." And the narrator, now
getting on in years, is thinking about the days of his youth.
Double nitpick.
LP Hartley, in 'The Go-Between', wrote "The past is a foreign country: they do
things differently there."
The 'another' misquote does not appear before the late 70s.
And for some reason, I thought the quote originally was in French.
Looking around, all I've found is this site
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/selcs/study/undergraduate/modules/finalyear-2018-19/finalyear-2018-19/fren0031-medieval-french-literature
According to H. E. Bates’s famous dictum, ‘The past is another country –
they do things differently there’.
I'm curious if you can find that actual quote, in a work by Bates. I've also
seen it attributed to Maureen S. O'Brien
I actually checked "The Go-Between" to make sure I had it right.
First line of The Prologue:


https://preview.tinyurl.com/Past-Hartley OR

https://tinyurl.com/Past-Hartley - resolves to:


https://books.google.com/books?id=NDzighfP5hcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+Go-Between+hartley+preview&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjPr-jAnvLdAhXRVN8KHVCcB0YQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=The%20Go-Between%20hartley%20preview&f=false

Then there's Faulkner's:

“The past is never dead. It's not even past."

- Requiem for a Nun

Kevin R

Kevin R
Robert Carnegie
2018-10-05 21:22:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by m***@sky.com
The quote goes "The
past is a foreign country: they do things differently there."
Nitpick: "the past is another country." And the narrator, now
getting on in years, is thinking about the days of his youth.
Double nitpick.
LP Hartley, in 'The Go-Between', wrote "The past is a foreign country: they do
things differently there."
The 'another' misquote does not appear before the late 70s.
And for some reason, I thought the quote originally was in French.
Looking around, all I've found is this site
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/selcs/study/undergraduate/modules/finalyear-2018-19/finalyear-2018-19/fren0031-medieval-french-literature
According to H. E. Bates’s famous dictum, ‘The past is another country – they do
things differently there’.
John Savard
And besides, the wench is dead.
smw
2018-10-11 04:58:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
LP Hartley, in 'The Go-Between', wrote "The past is a foreign country: they do
things differently there."
https://xkcd.com/1191/

- Steven
--
___________________________________________________________________________
Steven Winikoff | "There's more to being an evil despot than
Concordia University | getting cake whenever you want it."
Montreal, QC, Canada |
***@concordia.ca | "If that's what you think, then you're
| doing it wrong!"
| - Girl Genius, 2013/04/10
Peter Trei
2018-10-11 13:06:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by smw
Post by Peter Trei
LP Hartley, in 'The Go-Between', wrote "The past is a foreign country: they do
things differently there."
https://xkcd.com/1191/
:-)

pt
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-10-11 13:23:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by smw
Post by Peter Trei
LP Hartley, in 'The Go-Between', wrote "The past is a foreign
country: they do
Post by smw
Post by Peter Trei
things differently there."
https://xkcd.com/1191/
:-)
Yeah, but you'll need a time machine to invade it.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Quadibloc
2018-10-11 17:16:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Yeah, but you'll need a time machine to invade it.
Well, while someone is keeping busy figuring out how to build a time machine, he
will be too busy to invade real foreign countries in the Middle East, causing
problems for America's image in that part of the world. Win!

John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-10-11 17:26:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Yeah, but you'll need a time machine to invade it.
Well, while someone is keeping busy figuring out how to build a time machine, he
will be too busy to invade real foreign countries in the Middle East, causing
problems for America's image in that part of the world. Win!
Yeah, if you can make that work, go for it.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
J. Clarke
2018-10-12 00:59:13 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 10:16:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Yeah, but you'll need a time machine to invade it.
Well, while someone is keeping busy figuring out how to build a time machine, he
will be too busy to invade real foreign countries in the Middle East, causing
problems for America's image in that part of the world. Win!
Earth to Quadi--what a bunch of loony-tune religious fanatics who
can't get laid except by enslaving women think of us is a matter of
crashing indifference. YOU may have a crushing need to be liked, we
don't.
Quadibloc
2018-10-12 06:04:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 10:16:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Well, while someone is keeping busy figuring out how to build a time machine, he
will be too busy to invade real foreign countries in the Middle East, causing
problems for America's image in that part of the world. Win!
Earth to Quadi--what a bunch of loony-tune religious fanatics who
can't get laid except by enslaving women think of us is a matter of
crashing indifference. YOU may have a crushing need to be liked, we
don't.
I don't think that the U.S. should be worried about whether terrorists, or
wicked, bigoted Muslims, like it. However, I assume that the overwhelming
majority of Muslims are decent people just like us - and so we owe it to them as
well as to ourselves and the world to help make sure they won't be deceived and
confused by America's enemies.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2018-10-13 00:18:52 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 23:04:21 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 10:16:13 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Well, while someone is keeping busy figuring out how to build a time machine, he
will be too busy to invade real foreign countries in the Middle East, causing
problems for America's image in that part of the world. Win!
Earth to Quadi--what a bunch of loony-tune religious fanatics who
can't get laid except by enslaving women think of us is a matter of
crashing indifference. YOU may have a crushing need to be liked, we
don't.
I don't think that the U.S. should be worried about whether terrorists, or
wicked, bigoted Muslims, like it. However, I assume that the overwhelming
majority of Muslims are decent people just like us - and so we owe it to them as
well as to ourselves and the world to help make sure they won't be deceived and
confused by America's enemies.
The only ways to do that are (1) to educate them, which means
controlling their information or (2) to remove those enemies. In
either case war is involved.
Default User
2018-10-11 21:03:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by smw
Post by Peter Trei
LP Hartley, in 'The Go-Between', wrote "The past is a foreign
country: they do
Post by smw
Post by Peter Trei
things differently there."
https://xkcd.com/1191/
:-)
Yeah, but you'll need a time machine to invade it.
Details.


Brian
Lynn McGuire
2018-10-05 22:57:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Sorry to Crush Your Dreams, But We're Not Colonizing Space Anytime Soon
https://www.tor.com/2018/10/05/sorry-to-crush-your-dreams-but-were-not-colonizing-space-anytime-soon/
All we need is a fuel source like the imaginary Squeezer*. Until then,
space is going to be for the ultra-rich.

Lynn

* The Squeezer is the infinite compression / gravity less device from
John Varley's splendid _Red Thunder_ books.
https://www.amazon.com/Red-Thunder-Lightning-Novel/dp/0441011624/
J. Clarke
2018-10-05 23:57:45 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 17:57:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Sorry to Crush Your Dreams, But We're Not Colonizing Space Anytime Soon
https://www.tor.com/2018/10/05/sorry-to-crush-your-dreams-but-were-not-colonizing-space-anytime-soon/
All we need is a fuel source like the imaginary Squeezer*. Until then,
space is going to be for the ultra-rich.
Lynn
* The Squeezer is the infinite compression / gravity less device from
John Varley's splendid _Red Thunder_ books.
https://www.amazon.com/Red-Thunder-Lightning-Novel/dp/0441011624/
Once the cost has been reduced to fuel and crew time it will get a lot
less expensive.

NASA never tried to make it cheap, they just bought and continue to
buy overpriced throwaways.
Lynn McGuire
2018-10-06 00:22:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 17:57:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Sorry to Crush Your Dreams, But We're Not Colonizing Space Anytime Soon
https://www.tor.com/2018/10/05/sorry-to-crush-your-dreams-but-were-not-colonizing-space-anytime-soon/
All we need is a fuel source like the imaginary Squeezer*. Until then,
space is going to be for the ultra-rich.
Lynn
* The Squeezer is the infinite compression / gravity less device from
John Varley's splendid _Red Thunder_ books.
https://www.amazon.com/Red-Thunder-Lightning-Novel/dp/0441011624/
Once the cost has been reduced to fuel and crew time it will get a lot
less expensive.
NASA never tried to make it cheap, they just bought and continue to
buy overpriced throwaways.
Ah, the participants will change from the ultra rich to the very rich ?

I just don't see a trip around the moon costing less than, $10 million a
person.

Lynn
Lynn McGuire
2018-10-06 00:30:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 17:57:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Sorry to Crush Your Dreams, But We're Not Colonizing Space Anytime Soon
https://www.tor.com/2018/10/05/sorry-to-crush-your-dreams-but-were-not-colonizing-space-anytime-soon/
All we need is a fuel source like the imaginary Squeezer*.  Until then,
space is going to be for the ultra-rich.
Lynn
* The Squeezer is the infinite compression / gravity less device from
John Varley's splendid _Red Thunder_ books.
     https://www.amazon.com/Red-Thunder-Lightning-Novel/dp/0441011624/
Once the cost has been reduced to fuel and crew time it will get a lot
less expensive.
NASA never tried to make it cheap, they just bought and continue to
buy overpriced throwaways.
Ah, the participants will change from the ultra rich to the very rich ?
I just don't see a trip around the moon costing less than, $10 million a
person.
Lynn
And, what about the 1 in 99 chance of failure for the Space Shuttle. I
doubt that any space ship will have a much better failure rate.

I would still probably get on the 1 in 99 failure rate space ship if
somebody bought me a ticket.

Lynn
J. Clarke
2018-10-06 02:37:45 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 19:30:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 17:57:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Sorry to Crush Your Dreams, But We're Not Colonizing Space Anytime Soon
https://www.tor.com/2018/10/05/sorry-to-crush-your-dreams-but-were-not-colonizing-space-anytime-soon/
All we need is a fuel source like the imaginary Squeezer*.  Until then,
space is going to be for the ultra-rich.
Lynn
* The Squeezer is the infinite compression / gravity less device from
John Varley's splendid _Red Thunder_ books.
     https://www.amazon.com/Red-Thunder-Lightning-Novel/dp/0441011624/
Once the cost has been reduced to fuel and crew time it will get a lot
less expensive.
NASA never tried to make it cheap, they just bought and continue to
buy overpriced throwaways.
Ah, the participants will change from the ultra rich to the very rich ?
I just don't see a trip around the moon costing less than, $10 million a
person.
Lynn
And, what about the 1 in 99 chance of failure for the Space Shuttle. I
doubt that any space ship will have a much better failure rate.
The Space Shuttle was a piece of shit to begin with. Why would
something that has had a proper development program be less reliable?
Post by Lynn McGuire
I would still probably get on the 1 in 99 failure rate space ship if
somebody bought me a ticket.
Lynn
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-10-06 02:46:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 17:57:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Sorry to Crush Your Dreams, But We're Not Colonizing Space Anytime Soon
https://www.tor.com/2018/10/05/sorry-to-crush-your-dreams-but-were-not-colonizing-space-anytime-soon/
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
All we need is a fuel source like the imaginary Squeezer*.  Until then,
space is going to be for the ultra-rich.
Lynn
* The Squeezer is the infinite compression / gravity less device from
John Varley's splendid _Red Thunder_ books.
     https://www.amazon.com/Red-Thunder-Lightning-Novel/dp/0441011624/
Once the cost has been reduced to fuel and crew time it will get a lot
less expensive.
NASA never tried to make it cheap, they just bought and continue to
buy overpriced throwaways.
Ah, the participants will change from the ultra rich to the very rich ?
I just don't see a trip around the moon costing less than, $10 million a
person.
Lynn
And, what about the 1 in 99 chance of failure for the Space Shuttle. I
doubt that any space ship will have a much better failure rate.
I would still probably get on the 1 in 99 failure rate space ship if
somebody bought me a ticket.
Lynn
That Japanese artist guy is looking for passengers on the flight he
booked last I heard. The catch is you have to be an artist.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
J. Clarke
2018-10-06 02:36:56 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 19:22:58 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 17:57:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Sorry to Crush Your Dreams, But We're Not Colonizing Space Anytime Soon
https://www.tor.com/2018/10/05/sorry-to-crush-your-dreams-but-were-not-colonizing-space-anytime-soon/
All we need is a fuel source like the imaginary Squeezer*. Until then,
space is going to be for the ultra-rich.
Lynn
* The Squeezer is the infinite compression / gravity less device from
John Varley's splendid _Red Thunder_ books.
https://www.amazon.com/Red-Thunder-Lightning-Novel/dp/0441011624/
Once the cost has been reduced to fuel and crew time it will get a lot
less expensive.
NASA never tried to make it cheap, they just bought and continue to
buy overpriced throwaways.
Ah, the participants will change from the ultra rich to the very rich ?
I just don't see a trip around the moon costing less than, $10 million a
person.
SpaceX is shooting for 10 million all up for BFR. Not per person, per
launch. Capacity around 100 passengers.
Lynn McGuire
2018-10-06 03:05:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 19:22:58 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 17:57:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Sorry to Crush Your Dreams, But We're Not Colonizing Space Anytime Soon
https://www.tor.com/2018/10/05/sorry-to-crush-your-dreams-but-were-not-colonizing-space-anytime-soon/
All we need is a fuel source like the imaginary Squeezer*. Until then,
space is going to be for the ultra-rich.
Lynn
* The Squeezer is the infinite compression / gravity less device from
John Varley's splendid _Red Thunder_ books.
https://www.amazon.com/Red-Thunder-Lightning-Novel/dp/0441011624/
Once the cost has been reduced to fuel and crew time it will get a lot
less expensive.
NASA never tried to make it cheap, they just bought and continue to
buy overpriced throwaways.
Ah, the participants will change from the ultra rich to the very rich ?
I just don't see a trip around the moon costing less than, $10 million a
person.
SpaceX is shooting for 10 million all up for BFR. Not per person, per
launch. Capacity around 100 passengers.
Sounds way too low a cost for a single trip. I'll bet that I would barf
the entire time that we were in weightlessness.

The BFR has 40 cabins. That is 2.5 people per cabin for a one week trip
around the moon ??? I wonder if each cabin has a potty or if you just
wear a diaper.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/bfr.htm

Good night, that thing is huge !

Lynn
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-10-06 04:26:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 19:22:58 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 17:57:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Sorry to Crush Your Dreams, But We're Not Colonizing Space Anytime Soon
https://www.tor.com/2018/10/05/sorry-to-crush-your-dreams-but-were-not-colonizing-space-anytime-soon/
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Lynn McGuire
All we need is a fuel source like the imaginary Squeezer*. Until then,
space is going to be for the ultra-rich.
Lynn
* The Squeezer is the infinite compression / gravity less device from
John Varley's splendid _Red Thunder_ books.
https://www.amazon.com/Red-Thunder-Lightning-Novel/dp/0441011624/
Once the cost has been reduced to fuel and crew time it will get a lot
less expensive.
NASA never tried to make it cheap, they just bought and continue to
buy overpriced throwaways.
Ah, the participants will change from the ultra rich to the very rich ?
I just don't see a trip around the moon costing less than, $10 million a
person.
SpaceX is shooting for 10 million all up for BFR. Not per person, per
launch. Capacity around 100 passengers.
Sounds way too low a cost for a single trip. I'll bet that I would barf
the entire time that we were in weightlessness.
The BFR has 40 cabins. That is 2.5 people per cabin for a one week trip
around the moon ??? I wonder if each cabin has a potty or if you just
wear a diaper.
I understand there's a sort of vacuum attachment.

Although in _2001_, there was the zero-G toilet, which (if you
were able to read the fine print, was a self-contained centrifuge
that imparted some illusion of gravity inside the toilet while in
use. It ended, "Please wait until spin has ended before
exiting."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Quadibloc
2018-10-06 04:55:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Although in _2001_, there was the zero-G toilet, which (if you
were able to read the fine print, was a self-contained centrifuge
that imparted some illusion of gravity inside the toilet while in
use. It ended, "Please wait until spin has ended before
exiting."
I think that was actually the inside of the toilet spinning, not the whole
washroom.

John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-10-06 13:56:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Although in _2001_, there was the zero-G toilet, which (if you
were able to read the fine print, was a self-contained centrifuge
that imparted some illusion of gravity inside the toilet while in
use. It ended, "Please wait until spin has ended before
exiting."
I think that was actually the inside of the toilet spinning, not the whole
washroom.
It was the whole chamber, occupant and all. I have a book
somewhere that gives the entire text. I may be able to find it
and if so I'll transcribe it.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Quadibloc
2018-10-06 14:18:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
It was the whole chamber, occupant and all. I have a book
somewhere that gives the entire text. I may be able to find it
and if so I'll transcribe it.
I've seen that book: The Lost Worlds of 2001. I believe the text is also on-line.

John Savard
Cryptoengineer
2018-10-06 14:37:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
It was the whole chamber, occupant and all. I have a book
somewhere that gives the entire text. I may be able to find it and
if so I'll transcribe it.
I've seen that book: The Lost Worlds of 2001. I believe the text is also on-line.
John Savard
https://www.flickr.com/photos/***@N08/5819059081

pt
D B Davis
2018-10-06 05:07:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by James Nicoll
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 19:22:58 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 17:57:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Sorry to Crush Your Dreams, But We're Not Colonizing Space Anytime Soon
https://www.tor.com/2018/10/05/sorry-to-crush-your-dreams-but-were-not-colonizing-space-anytime-soon/
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Lynn McGuire
All we need is a fuel source like the imaginary Squeezer*. Until then,
space is going to be for the ultra-rich.
Lynn
* The Squeezer is the infinite compression / gravity less device from
John Varley's splendid _Red Thunder_ books.
https://www.amazon.com/Red-Thunder-Lightning-Novel/dp/0441011624/
Once the cost has been reduced to fuel and crew time it will get a lot
less expensive.
NASA never tried to make it cheap, they just bought and continue to
buy overpriced throwaways.
Ah, the participants will change from the ultra rich to the very rich ?
I just don't see a trip around the moon costing less than, $10 million a
person.
SpaceX is shooting for 10 million all up for BFR. Not per person, per
launch. Capacity around 100 passengers.
Sounds way too low a cost for a single trip. I'll bet that I would barf
the entire time that we were in weightlessness.
The BFR has 40 cabins. That is 2.5 people per cabin for a one week trip
around the moon ??? I wonder if each cabin has a potty or if you just
wear a diaper.
I understand there's a sort of vacuum attachment.
_The Forever War_ (Haldeman) says this about that:

I popped the spare suit and after a lot of pulling and pushing, managed
to get his legs in. Hooked up the biosensors and the front relief tube.
He'd have to do the other one himself -- it's too complicated. For the
nth time I was glad not to have been born female; they have to have two
of those damned plumber's friends, instead of just one and a simple
hose.



Thank you,
--
Don
p***@hotmail.com
2018-10-06 06:59:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by James Nicoll
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 19:22:58 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 17:57:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Sorry to Crush Your Dreams, But We're Not Colonizing Space Anytime Soon
https://www.tor.com/2018/10/05/sorry-to-crush-your-dreams-but-were-not-colonizing-space-anytime-soon/
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Lynn McGuire
All we need is a fuel source like the imaginary Squeezer*. Until then,
space is going to be for the ultra-rich.
Lynn
* The Squeezer is the infinite compression / gravity less device from
John Varley's splendid _Red Thunder_ books.
https://www.amazon.com/Red-Thunder-Lightning-Novel/dp/0441011624/
Once the cost has been reduced to fuel and crew time it will get a lot
less expensive.
NASA never tried to make it cheap, they just bought and continue to
buy overpriced throwaways.
Ah, the participants will change from the ultra rich to the very rich ?
I just don't see a trip around the moon costing less than, $10 million a
person.
SpaceX is shooting for 10 million all up for BFR. Not per person, per
launch. Capacity around 100 passengers.
Sounds way too low a cost for a single trip. I'll bet that I would barf
the entire time that we were in weightlessness.
The BFR has 40 cabins. That is 2.5 people per cabin for a one week trip
around the moon ??? I wonder if each cabin has a potty or if you just
wear a diaper.
I understand there's a sort of vacuum attachment.
Although in _2001_, there was the zero-G toilet, which (if you
were able to read the fine print, was a self-contained centrifuge
that imparted some illusion of gravity inside the toilet while in
use. It ended, "Please wait until spin has ended before
exiting."
The movie and the book differ here. The movie, for comic effect, briefly
shows elaborate instructions describing equipment that functions
in free fall:

https://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~elf/aso/zeroGtoilet.html

In the book, Clarke describes a system where the entire washroom rotates when
in use to provide enough centripetal acceleration for Earth-type fixtures to
function as they do on the Earth or moon:

A whole generation of research by heroic but unsung volunteers had gone into
the design of the washroom, and it was now considered to be more or less
foolproof. Floyd investigated it soon after free fall had begun. He found
himself in a little cubicle with all the fittings of an ordinary airline
toilet, but illuminated with a red light that was very harsh and unpleasant
to the eye. A notice printed in prominent letters announced: MOST IMPORTANT!
FOR YOUR OWN COMFORT, PLEASE READ THESE INSTRUCTIONS CAREFULLY!

Floyd sat down (one still tended to do so, even when weightless) and read
the notice several times. When he was sure that there had been no modifications
since his last trip, he pressed the START button.

Close at hand, an electric motor began to whirr, and Floyd felt himself moving.
As the notice advised him to do, he closed his eyes and waited. After a minute,
a bell chimed softly and he looked around.

The light had now changed to a soothing pinkish-white; but, more important, he
was under gravity again.

Only the faintest vibration revealed that it was a spurious gravity, caused by
the carrousel like spin of the whole toilet compartment. Floyd picked up a
piece of soap, and watched it drop in slow motion; he judged that the
centrifugal force was about a quarter of a normal gravity. But that was quite
enough; it would ensure that everything moved in the right direction, in the
one place where this mattered most.

He pressed the STOP FOR EXIT button, and closed his eyes again. Weight slowly
ebbed as the rotation ceased, the bell gave a double chime, and the red warning
light was back. The door was then locked in the right position to let him glide
out into the cabin, where he adhered as quickly as possible to the carpet. He
had long ago exhausted the novelty of weightlessness, and was grateful for the
Velcro slippers that allowed him to walk almost normally.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
J. Clarke
2018-10-06 16:07:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by James Nicoll
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 19:22:58 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 17:57:55 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Sorry to Crush Your Dreams, But We're Not Colonizing Space Anytime Soon
https://www.tor.com/2018/10/05/sorry-to-crush-your-dreams-but-were-not-colonizing-space-anytime-soon/
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Lynn McGuire
All we need is a fuel source like the imaginary Squeezer*. Until then,
space is going to be for the ultra-rich.
Lynn
* The Squeezer is the infinite compression / gravity less device from
John Varley's splendid _Red Thunder_ books.
https://www.amazon.com/Red-Thunder-Lightning-Novel/dp/0441011624/
Once the cost has been reduced to fuel and crew time it will get a lot
less expensive.
NASA never tried to make it cheap, they just bought and continue to
buy overpriced throwaways.
Ah, the participants will change from the ultra rich to the very rich ?
I just don't see a trip around the moon costing less than, $10 million a
person.
SpaceX is shooting for 10 million all up for BFR. Not per person, per
launch. Capacity around 100 passengers.
Sounds way too low a cost for a single trip. I'll bet that I would barf
the entire time that we were in weightlessness.
The BFR has 40 cabins. That is 2.5 people per cabin for a one week trip
around the moon ??? I wonder if each cabin has a potty or if you just
wear a diaper.
I understand there's a sort of vacuum attachment.
Although in _2001_, there was the zero-G toilet, which (if you
were able to read the fine print, was a self-contained centrifuge
that imparted some illusion of gravity inside the toilet while in
use. It ended, "Please wait until spin has ended before
exiting."
In Skylab there was a zero-g toilet. They have been in more or less
continuous use since. There is no magic there, no big secret, no mad
science waiting to be developed.
Greg Goss
2018-10-12 03:03:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
SpaceX is shooting for 10 million all up for BFR. Not per person, per
launch. Capacity around 100 passengers.
The sketch I saw called it a "ship". BFS. The BFR is a surface to
orbit booster, isn't it?
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
J. Clarke
2018-10-12 03:31:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Goss
Post by J. Clarke
SpaceX is shooting for 10 million all up for BFR. Not per person, per
launch. Capacity around 100 passengers.
The sketch I saw called it a "ship". BFS. The BFR is a surface to
orbit booster, isn't it?
The system is BFR. It consists of BFB and BFS. BFB is the first
stage. BFS is the second stage.
Lynn McGuire
2018-10-12 18:25:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Goss
Post by J. Clarke
SpaceX is shooting for 10 million all up for BFR. Not per person, per
launch. Capacity around 100 passengers.
The sketch I saw called it a "ship". BFS. The BFR is a surface to
orbit booster, isn't it?
Lots of pictures here. The BFS portion of the BFR is four times bigger
than a space shuttle.

Lynn
Lynn McGuire
2018-10-12 18:54:24 UTC
Permalink
SpaceX is shooting for 10 million all up for BFR.  Not per person, per
launch.  Capacity around 100 passengers.
The sketch I saw called it a "ship".  BFS.  The BFR is a surface to
orbit booster, isn't it?
Lots of pictures here.  The BFS portion of the BFR is four times bigger
than a space shuttle.
Lynn
Sigh, here is the URL:
https://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/bfr.htm

Lynn
J. Clarke
2018-10-13 00:23:35 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 13:54:24 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
SpaceX is shooting for 10 million all up for BFR.  Not per person, per
launch.  Capacity around 100 passengers.
The sketch I saw called it a "ship".  BFS.  The BFR is a surface to
orbit booster, isn't it?
Lots of pictures here.  The BFS portion of the BFR is four times bigger
than a space shuttle.
Lynn
https://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/bfr.htm
Then there's <https://www.spacex.com/mars>
Lynn McGuire
2018-10-13 02:17:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 13:54:24 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
SpaceX is shooting for 10 million all up for BFR.  Not per person, per
launch.  Capacity around 100 passengers.
The sketch I saw called it a "ship".  BFS.  The BFR is a surface to
orbit booster, isn't it?
Lots of pictures here.  The BFS portion of the BFR is four times bigger
than a space shuttle.
Lynn
https://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/bfr.htm
Then there's <https://www.spacex.com/mars>
Much better. He is planning on using the BFR for 32 minutes to London
from Los Angeles, no way !

Lynn
J. Clarke
2018-10-13 04:04:10 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 21:17:12 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 13:54:24 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
SpaceX is shooting for 10 million all up for BFR.  Not per person, per
launch.  Capacity around 100 passengers.
The sketch I saw called it a "ship".  BFS.  The BFR is a surface to
orbit booster, isn't it?
Lots of pictures here.  The BFS portion of the BFR is four times bigger
than a space shuttle.
Lynn
https://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/bfr.htm
Then there's <https://www.spacex.com/mars>
Much better. He is planning on using the BFR for 32 minutes to London
from Los Angeles, no way !
I understand that they're targeting the performance of BFS to be SSTO
from Earth (barely, with no payload and no reserves). If it can do
that, launch from the Moon or Mars is easy-peasey, but it also could
mean that it can operate suborbitally without a booster.

Loading...