Discussion:
What purpose does SF serve for you?
(too old to reply)
a***@gmail.com
2020-03-05 22:41:50 UTC
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For me, it is an escape from a harsh reality, into a fantasy world. It is a way of exploring ideas that are too radical or dangerous to be tested in the real world. It is a way of passing time before death.

What purpose does SF serve for you?

Abhinav Lal

"I don't give a damn"
p***@hotmail.com
2020-03-08 19:04:38 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
For me, it is an escape from a harsh reality, into a fantasy world. It is a way of exploring ideas that are too radical or dangerous to be tested in the real world. It is a way of passing time before death.
What purpose does SF serve for you?
First, it gives me contact with a community of people who enjoy playing with
ideas. On a larger scale it demonstrates to our entire culture the value
of ideas. This has been increased by the fact that science fiction movies
are often blockbusters bringing in billions of dollars in revenue. Over the
years science fiction has been a conduit for new ideas into our culture.

There was an amusing example of this in the 1953 movie adaptation of
Henry Kuttner and C. L. Moore's short story _The Twonky_. It was done
as a comedy and the Twonky itself has the form of a television set
rather than a combination radio/phonograph. After it is delivered
to the house of philosophy professor Kerry West (Hans Conreid, who
also played Dr. Terwilliker in _The 5,000 Fingers of Dr. T_ and was
the voice of Captain Hook in the Disney version of _Peter Pan_, all
three in that same year) it shows itself to be an advanced robot that
performs household tasks but also interferes with his intellectual
freedom using its mind control ray. In the printed story, earlier
scenes showed how this product of a future technology came to exist
in the twentieth century and got into the retail supply chain, but
in the movie the first we see of it is when it comes off the delivery
truck.

Exposition comes as Professor West tells his friends about the strange
events. Football coach Trout calls the device a "Twonky", which is a
term he has used since childhood for any mysterious object, and theorizes
that it came from the future through some sort of temporal portal. Its
behavior implies to him the nature of a culture that would create such
things, "in the world of the future where this Twonky comes from, every
house, every family has a Twonky of its own to carry out the dictates of
the Super State. There is one placed in every home to regulate every
thought according to the dictates of the Super State."

When Professor West gives Trout a blank look in response to this, the
coach replies, 'What's the matter with you; didn't you ever read any
science fiction?'

Similarly, in the movie _The Faculty_, some of the teachers at a private
high school begin acting very strangely. This is noticed by a group of
genre-savvy students who discuss it among themselves in science fiction
terms: (quotation inexact, from memory)

"Are we dealing here with creatures that have replaced the teachers, like
in _Invasion of the Body Snatchers_, or things that have taken them over,
like _The Puppet Masters_?"

These examples are from fiction, but in the real world people know about
Big Brother, can envision the dangers of the surveillance state, and can
see both the benefits and possible downsides of advances in information
technology. When a new comet or those extra-solar objects is announced,
people ask, "Will it hit us?" Stories about existential threats are
published in the mass media. Coronavirus fills the news.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2020-03-22 12:37:35 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
For me, it is an escape from a harsh reality, into a fantasy world. It is a way of exploring ideas that are too radical or dangerous to be tested in the real world. It is a way of passing time before death.
What purpose does SF serve for you?
Abhinav Lal
"I don't give a damn"
Well, as a reader, it's a source of enjoyment.

As an author, it's a potential source of income and a chance to show
stuff to other people that they might like.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
a***@yahoo.com
2020-03-22 13:05:52 UTC
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Recently, a friend asked on Facebook whether we felt like we are living in a SF story. My first response was " All Summer in a Day" by Ray Bradbury. So SF is a lens to reality. I hope the sun is shining where you are....
D B Davis
2020-03-23 03:18:04 UTC
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Post by a***@yahoo.com
Recently, a friend asked on Facebook whether we felt like we are living
in a SF story. My first response was " All Summer in a Day" by Ray Bradbury.
So SF is a lens to reality. I hope the sun is shining where you are....
The sun shines here most of the time. My life feels like it's lived in a
Robin Cook novel. "All Summer in a Day" seems a mix of four parts "The
Long Rain" (Bradbury) to one part "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas"
(Le Guin).



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Johnny1A
2020-03-24 05:28:26 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
For me, it is an escape from a harsh reality, into a fantasy world. It is a way of exploring ideas that are too radical or dangerous to be tested in the real world. It is a way of passing time before death.
What purpose does SF serve for you?
Abhinav Lal
"I don't give a damn"
Primarily entertainment, of course. In that sense, it's no different than football or the like, it's just my preferred form of entertainment.

There is a slightly deeper level to it, the best SF and fantasy can pose interesting questions or inspire me to consider things from an angle I had not before. This is the domain of SF like _Dune_ and fantasy like _The Lord of the Rings_ or _The Silmarillion_.
h***@gmail.com
2020-03-25 00:47:49 UTC
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Post by Johnny1A
Post by a***@gmail.com
For me, it is an escape from a harsh reality, into a fantasy world. It is a way of exploring ideas that are too radical or dangerous to be tested in the real world. It is a way of passing time before death.
What purpose does SF serve for you?
Abhinav Lal
"I don't give a damn"
Primarily entertainment, of course. In that sense, it's no different than football or the like, it's just my preferred form of entertainment.
There is a slightly deeper level to it, the best SF and fantasy can pose interesting questions or inspire me to consider things from an angle I had not before. This is the domain of SF like _Dune_ and fantasy like _The Lord of the Rings_ or _The Silmarillion_.
The main question the Silmarillion inspired in me was "who the hell is that character? Have we seen him before?"
Dimensional Traveler
2020-03-25 02:56:42 UTC
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Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Johnny1A
Post by a***@gmail.com
For me, it is an escape from a harsh reality, into a fantasy world. It is a way of exploring ideas that are too radical or dangerous to be tested in the real world. It is a way of passing time before death.
What purpose does SF serve for you?
Abhinav Lal
"I don't give a damn"
Primarily entertainment, of course. In that sense, it's no different than football or the like, it's just my preferred form of entertainment.
There is a slightly deeper level to it, the best SF and fantasy can pose interesting questions or inspire me to consider things from an angle I had not before. This is the domain of SF like _Dune_ and fantasy like _The Lord of the Rings_ or _The Silmarillion_.
The main question the Silmarillion inspired in me was "who the hell is that character? Have we seen him before?"
"Just how many damn names does this one person have?!"
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
Chrysi Cat
2020-03-25 04:57:12 UTC
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
For me, it is an escape from a harsh reality, into a fantasy world.
It is a way of exploring ideas that are too radical or dangerous to
be tested in the real world.  It is a way of passing time before death.
What purpose does SF serve for you?
Abhinav Lal
"I don't give a damn"
Primarily entertainment, of course.  In that sense, it's no different
than football or the like, it's just my preferred form of entertainment.
There is a slightly deeper level to it, the best SF and fantasy can
pose interesting questions or inspire me to consider things from an
angle I had not before.  This is the domain of SF like _Dune_ and
fantasy like _The Lord of the Rings_ or _The Silmarillion_.
The main question the Silmarillion inspired in me was "who the hell is
that character? Have we seen him before?"
"Just how many damn names does this one person have?!"
Blame the various Germanic tribes that took over Britain--they were
notorious for having like ten kennings for every individual, and since
the author was a philologist whose Beowulf translation would have had
him on the map _anyway_ had he chosen to publish it, of course he was
going to throw them all over the place in his own creation.

Not that it isn't still annoying for anyone who's not a fan of
Anglo-Saxon, or Norse, epic poetry, though.
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Bice
2020-03-25 14:03:00 UTC
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On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 19:56:42 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by h***@gmail.com
The main question the Silmarillion inspired in me was
"who the hell is that character? Have we seen him before?"
"Just how many damn names does this one person have?!"
Several years ago my wife and I attempted the Silmarillion (I finished
it, can't remember if she did or not). Still tucked into the front
cover of our hardcover edition are three hand-written sheets of paper
covered with character names and notes and family trees that we wrote
up so we could follow the stories.

-- Bob
Paul S Person
2020-03-25 16:50:29 UTC
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Post by Bice
On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 19:56:42 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by h***@gmail.com
The main question the Silmarillion inspired in me was
"who the hell is that character? Have we seen him before?"
"Just how many damn names does this one person have?!"
Several years ago my wife and I attempted the Silmarillion (I finished
it, can't remember if she did or not). Still tucked into the front
cover of our hardcover edition are three hand-written sheets of paper
up so we could follow the stories.
Anyone wonder why JRRT had problems getting it published in his
lifetime?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Johnny1A
2020-03-26 02:41:21 UTC
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Post by Paul S Person
Post by Bice
On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 19:56:42 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by h***@gmail.com
The main question the Silmarillion inspired in me was
"who the hell is that character? Have we seen him before?"
"Just how many damn names does this one person have?!"
Several years ago my wife and I attempted the Silmarillion (I finished
it, can't remember if she did or not). Still tucked into the front
cover of our hardcover edition are three hand-written sheets of paper
up so we could follow the stories.
Anyone wonder why JRRT had problems getting it published in his
lifetime?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
That's true, but it's also that he didn't have just one version to publish.

What we call 'The Silmarillion' is the result of Christopher Tolkien going through his father's writings and assembling what was the closest he could manage to a coherent narrative of the First Age. There were/are _multiple_ Silmarillions written over the course of decades, even what got into C. Tolkien's published product isn't perfectly consistant, and some of it links to other stuff that didn't make the cut.

There was a 'round Earth Silmarillion' and a 'flat Earth Silmarillion' and a 'distorted by generations of Men' Silmarillion, or at least versions that could be assembled that way. There were multiple versions of the Numenor story, multiple versions of Galadriel's backstory, multiple versions of the metaphysical nature of Elves, Men, and Orcs, etc.
h***@gmail.com
2020-03-26 07:15:08 UTC
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Post by Paul S Person
Post by Bice
On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 19:56:42 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by h***@gmail.com
The main question the Silmarillion inspired in me was
"who the hell is that character? Have we seen him before?"
"Just how many damn names does this one person have?!"
Several years ago my wife and I attempted the Silmarillion (I finished
it, can't remember if she did or not). Still tucked into the front
cover of our hardcover edition are three hand-written sheets of paper
up so we could follow the stories.
Anyone wonder why JRRT had problems getting it published in his
lifetime?
The published version was drawing on decades of different versions, selecting options to make it compatible with tLotR.
I don't think JRR ever tried to get it published while he was alive
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-03-26 14:05:09 UTC
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Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Bice
On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 19:56:42 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by h***@gmail.com
The main question the Silmarillion inspired in me was
"who the hell is that character? Have we seen him before?"
"Just how many damn names does this one person have?!"
Several years ago my wife and I attempted the Silmarillion (I finished
it, can't remember if she did or not). Still tucked into the front
cover of our hardcover edition are three hand-written sheets of paper
up so we could follow the stories.
Anyone wonder why JRRT had problems getting it published in his
lifetime?
The published version was drawing on decades of different versions,
selecting options to make it compatible with tLotR.
I don't think JRR ever tried to get it published while he was alive
Well, he was certainly working on putting it together while he
was alive, because I wrote him a fan letter in the mid-1960s,
asking some linguistics questions, and he replied with some
answers and mentioned that he was working on the Silmarillion.

But, as mentioned above, there were many different versions
sitting around in rough draft, and he was in his seventies by
then. It is hard to get things organized in your seventies;
expertae crede.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2020-03-26 17:05:12 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Bice
On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 19:56:42 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by h***@gmail.com
The main question the Silmarillion inspired in me was
"who the hell is that character? Have we seen him before?"
"Just how many damn names does this one person have?!"
Several years ago my wife and I attempted the Silmarillion (I finished
it, can't remember if she did or not). Still tucked into the front
cover of our hardcover edition are three hand-written sheets of paper
up so we could follow the stories.
Anyone wonder why JRRT had problems getting it published in his
lifetime?
The published version was drawing on decades of different versions,
selecting options to make it compatible with tLotR.
I don't think JRR ever tried to get it published while he was alive
Well, he was certainly working on putting it together while he
was alive, because I wrote him a fan letter in the mid-1960s,
asking some linguistics questions, and he replied with some
answers and mentioned that he was working on the Silmarillion.
But, as mentioned above, there were many different versions
sitting around in rough draft, and he was in his seventies by
then. It is hard to get things organized in your seventies;
expertae crede.
Particularly when, as noted by others, you decide to re-write the
whole thing with a completely different cosmology.

Those interested may want to peruse many [1] of the volumes of the
/History of Middle-Earth/, which covers them in glorious detail.

[1]. This is based on memory, not investigation:
The very earliest version:

Book of Lost Tales: Part One
Book of Lost Tales: Part Two

Later versions:

Lays of Beleriand
The Shaping of Middle Earth:
Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion: Part One: The Legends of Aman
War of the Jewels: The Later Silmarillion: Part Two: The Legends of
Beleriand

but then there is also

Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-Earth

and others have at least some relevant material, such as

The Peoples of Middle-Earth

which I recall fondly but not too clearly

3 1/3 of the volumes are about how /Lord
of The Rings/ was written.

There is also a 2-volume set, by a different author, on how /The
Hobbit/ was written.

And there are some attempts at other writings, including the "new"
Silmarillion.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Thomas Koenig
2020-03-28 17:39:25 UTC
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by h***@gmail.com
The main question the Silmarillion inspired in me was "who the hell is that character? Have we seen him before?"
"Just how many damn names does this one person have?!"
"Why does everybody have to be such an idiot?"
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-03-28 21:12:56 UTC
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Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by h***@gmail.com
The main question the Silmarillion inspired in me was "who the hell
is that character? Have we seen him before?"
Post by Dimensional Traveler
"Just how many damn names does this one person have?!"
"Why does everybody have to be such an idiot?"
Because, in spite of being Elves, they are human.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Thomas Koenig
2020-03-29 09:59:24 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by h***@gmail.com
The main question the Silmarillion inspired in me was "who the hell
is that character? Have we seen him before?"
Post by Dimensional Traveler
"Just how many damn names does this one person have?!"
"Why does everybody have to be such an idiot?"
That was actually a comment made by my son, who was around 13 at the time.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Because, in spite of being Elves, they are human.
Not only the Elves. Ar-Pharazon probably takes the biscuit for
his attempted invasion of Valinor. But looking at Turin's actions
(for example) also does not make him a shining light of reasonable
behavior.

But the Valar aren't much better - if there is anything they could
have gotten worse in handling the whole Morgoth / Sauron situation,
I'm not sure what that would have been. Letting Sauron free was
a mistake that cost two Ages dearly.

And the Elves - Feanor is probably a close competition for
Ar-Pharazon, but Thingol isn't much better.
Paul S Person
2020-03-29 16:22:15 UTC
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On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 09:59:24 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig
Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by h***@gmail.com
The main question the Silmarillion inspired in me was "who the hell
is that character? Have we seen him before?"
Post by Dimensional Traveler
"Just how many damn names does this one person have?!"
"Why does everybody have to be such an idiot?"
That was actually a comment made by my son, who was around 13 at the time.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Because, in spite of being Elves, they are human.
Not only the Elves. Ar-Pharazon probably takes the biscuit for
his attempted invasion of Valinor. But looking at Turin's actions
(for example) also does not make him a shining light of reasonable
behavior.
But the Valar aren't much better - if there is anything they could
have gotten worse in handling the whole Morgoth / Sauron situation,
I'm not sure what that would have been. Letting Sauron free was
a mistake that cost two Ages dearly.
Manwe's plan to fix the Sauron problem ("send five hobbled Maiar to do
a Valar's job") also qualifies, IMHO.
Post by Thomas Koenig
And the Elves - Feanor is probably a close competition for
Ar-Pharazon, but Thingol isn't much better.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-03-29 20:15:47 UTC
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Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 09:59:24 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig
Post by Thomas Koenig
But the Valar aren't much better - if there is anything they could
have gotten worse in handling the whole Morgoth / Sauron situation,
I'm not sure what that would have been. Letting Sauron free was
a mistake that cost two Ages dearly.
Manwe's plan to fix the Sauron problem ("send five hobbled Maiar to do
a Valar's job") also qualifies, IMHO.
But the last time they sent the Valar to do the Valar's job, they
sank half of Middle-earth. Take a look at the maps in Silmarillion
and LotR; the easternmost lands in the former are the westernmost
in the latter, and, as Treebeard points out, now all those lands
lie under the wave.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a moment when Iluvatar told
the Valar, "Nice try, but you know what's paved with good
intentions. Next time, be *subtle.*"
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
p***@hotmail.com
2020-03-29 20:52:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 09:59:24 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig
Post by Thomas Koenig
But the Valar aren't much better - if there is anything they could
have gotten worse in handling the whole Morgoth / Sauron situation,
I'm not sure what that would have been. Letting Sauron free was
a mistake that cost two Ages dearly.
Manwe's plan to fix the Sauron problem ("send five hobbled Maiar to do
a Valar's job") also qualifies, IMHO.
But the last time they sent the Valar to do the Valar's job, they
sank half of Middle-earth. Take a look at the maps in Silmarillion
and LotR; the easternmost lands in the former are the westernmost
in the latter, and, as Treebeard points out, now all those lands
lie under the wave.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a moment when Iluvatar told
the Valar, "Nice try, but you know what's paved with good
intentions. Next time, be *subtle.*"
"I'll be subtle. I'm good at subtle." John Spartan, from _Demolition Man_

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Thomas Koenig
2020-03-29 21:57:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a moment when Iluvatar told
the Valar, "Nice try, but you know what's paved with good
intentions. Next time, be *subtle.*"
I didn't know that Baldrick was a Vala...

"Baldrick, you wouldn't recognise a subtle plan if it painted
itself purple and danced naked on a harpsicord singing 'subtle
plans are here again'."
Johnny1A
2020-03-30 05:17:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 09:59:24 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig
Post by Thomas Koenig
But the Valar aren't much better - if there is anything they could
have gotten worse in handling the whole Morgoth / Sauron situation,
I'm not sure what that would have been. Letting Sauron free was
a mistake that cost two Ages dearly.
Manwe's plan to fix the Sauron problem ("send five hobbled Maiar to do
a Valar's job") also qualifies, IMHO.
But the last time they sent the Valar to do the Valar's job, they
sank half of Middle-earth. Take a look at the maps in Silmarillion
and LotR; the easternmost lands in the former are the westernmost
in the latter, and, as Treebeard points out, now all those lands
lie under the wave.
Exactly.

Furthermore, the Valar know from painful experience about the Law of Unintended Consequences. When dealing with Men, this is doubly a concern of theirs, because the Ainur don't understand us or our spiritual nature as well as they do the Elves.

They sent the Istari because they weren't sure exactly what else they should do. Sauron is powerful enough, and cunning enough, to be a terrible long-term problem, but at the same time, he's a minor force compared to Melkor. Is it really worth tearing the planet up again to take him out? Considering that the bulk of the suffering and collateral damage from such an act would fall on the very people the Valar want to help?

They hoped the Istari could 'work from within' so to speak, encourage good behavior and upright thinking and work to frustrate Sauron's long-term plans, without throwing the world into ruins again. The fact that the Istari were far less potent than Sauron, and further the restrictions placed on what power they held, was to make sure they did work subtly and with their charges rather than riding roughshod over them. It leaves the free will of the people of Middle-earth, esp. Men, free.

Ultimately the plan failed, God's direct intervention after Gandalf fell to the Balrog was necessary because the Istari were not sufficient, but the plan was not a _complete_ failure. The Istari, esp. Gandalf, had delayed Sauron considerably, and if Saruman had been faithful, who knows? It might have worked.
Paul S Person
2020-03-30 16:47:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 09:59:24 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig
Post by Thomas Koenig
But the Valar aren't much better - if there is anything they could
have gotten worse in handling the whole Morgoth / Sauron situation,
I'm not sure what that would have been. Letting Sauron free was
a mistake that cost two Ages dearly.
Manwe's plan to fix the Sauron problem ("send five hobbled Maiar to do
a Valar's job") also qualifies, IMHO.
But the last time they sent the Valar to do the Valar's job, they
sank half of Middle-earth. Take a look at the maps in Silmarillion
and LotR; the easternmost lands in the former are the westernmost
in the latter, and, as Treebeard points out, now all those lands
lie under the wave.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a moment when Iluvatar told
the Valar, "Nice try, but you know what's paved with good
intentions. Next time, be *subtle.*"
That's the usual excuse, but the fact remains:

Manwe's plan failed

Eru Iluvator had to intervene personally to produce even the
possibility of victory.

When God Himself takes over, you can take it that what /you/ were
planning to do was completely inadequate.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Juho Julkunen
2020-03-31 17:09:06 UTC
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In article <***@4ax.com>, psperson1
@ix.netcom.invalid says...
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 09:59:24 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig
Post by Thomas Koenig
But the Valar aren't much better - if there is anything they could
have gotten worse in handling the whole Morgoth / Sauron situation,
I'm not sure what that would have been. Letting Sauron free was
a mistake that cost two Ages dearly.
Manwe's plan to fix the Sauron problem ("send five hobbled Maiar to do
a Valar's job") also qualifies, IMHO.
But the last time they sent the Valar to do the Valar's job, they
sank half of Middle-earth. Take a look at the maps in Silmarillion
and LotR; the easternmost lands in the former are the westernmost
in the latter, and, as Treebeard points out, now all those lands
lie under the wave.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a moment when Iluvatar told
the Valar, "Nice try, but you know what's paved with good
intentions. Next time, be *subtle.*"
Manwe's plan failed
Eru Iluvator had to intervene personally to produce even the
possibility of victory.
When God Himself takes over, you can take it that what /you/ were
planning to do was completely inadequate.
Of necessity, since you are not God. You do the best you can, and trust
that the grace of God will be with you when you need it.
--
Juho Julkunen
Magewolf
2020-03-31 17:59:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Juho Julkunen
@ix.netcom.invalid says...
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 09:59:24 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig
Post by Thomas Koenig
But the Valar aren't much better - if there is anything they could
have gotten worse in handling the whole Morgoth / Sauron situation,
I'm not sure what that would have been. Letting Sauron free was
a mistake that cost two Ages dearly.
Manwe's plan to fix the Sauron problem ("send five hobbled Maiar to do
a Valar's job") also qualifies, IMHO.
But the last time they sent the Valar to do the Valar's job, they
sank half of Middle-earth. Take a look at the maps in Silmarillion
and LotR; the easternmost lands in the former are the westernmost
in the latter, and, as Treebeard points out, now all those lands
lie under the wave.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a moment when Iluvatar told
the Valar, "Nice try, but you know what's paved with good
intentions. Next time, be *subtle.*"
Manwe's plan failed
Eru Iluvator had to intervene personally to produce even the
possibility of victory.
When God Himself takes over, you can take it that what /you/ were
planning to do was completely inadequate.
Of necessity, since you are not God. You do the best you can, and trust
that the grace of God will be with you when you need it.
Successful plans do not require direct Divine intervention.
Juho Julkunen
2020-04-01 15:48:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Magewolf
Post by Juho Julkunen
@ix.netcom.invalid says...
Post by Paul S Person
When God Himself takes over, you can take it that what /you/ were
planning to do was completely inadequate.
Of necessity, since you are not God. You do the best you can, and trust
that the grace of God will be with you when you need it.
Successful plans do not require direct Divine intervention.
Depends on the genre.
--
Juho Julkunen
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2020-04-01 15:53:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by Magewolf
Post by Juho Julkunen
@ix.netcom.invalid says...
Post by Paul S Person
When God Himself takes over, you can take it that what /you/ were
planning to do was completely inadequate.
Of necessity, since you are not God. You do the best you can, and trust
that the grace of God will be with you when you need it.
Successful plans do not require direct Divine intervention.
Depends on the genre.
True, some of Xena's plans pretty much required divine intervention, which
she was careful to arrange.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Magewolf
2020-04-01 19:42:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by Magewolf
Post by Juho Julkunen
@ix.netcom.invalid says...
Post by Paul S Person
When God Himself takes over, you can take it that what /you/ were
planning to do was completely inadequate.
Of necessity, since you are not God. You do the best you can, and trust
that the grace of God will be with you when you need it.
Successful plans do not require direct Divine intervention.
Depends on the genre.
True, some of Xena's plans pretty much required divine intervention, which
she was careful to arrange.
If the plan involves tricking or forcing a a god to take action then it
succeeds if that happen. However unless the Valar's real plan was to
mess things up badly enough Daddy had to fix it for them that really
does not apply here.
h***@gmail.com
2020-04-02 02:26:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Magewolf
Post by Juho Julkunen
@ix.netcom.invalid says...
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 09:59:24 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig
Post by Thomas Koenig
But the Valar aren't much better - if there is anything they could
have gotten worse in handling the whole Morgoth / Sauron situation,
I'm not sure what that would have been. Letting Sauron free was
a mistake that cost two Ages dearly.
Manwe's plan to fix the Sauron problem ("send five hobbled Maiar to do
a Valar's job") also qualifies, IMHO.
But the last time they sent the Valar to do the Valar's job, they
sank half of Middle-earth. Take a look at the maps in Silmarillion
and LotR; the easternmost lands in the former are the westernmost
in the latter, and, as Treebeard points out, now all those lands
lie under the wave.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a moment when Iluvatar told
the Valar, "Nice try, but you know what's paved with good
intentions. Next time, be *subtle.*"
Manwe's plan failed
Eru Iluvator had to intervene personally to produce even the
possibility of victory.
When God Himself takes over, you can take it that what /you/ were
planning to do was completely inadequate.
Of necessity, since you are not God. You do the best you can, and trust
that the grace of God will be with you when you need it.
Successful plans do not require direct Divine intervention.
That depends on whether you can count on Divine intervention.
A plan to get divine intervention works if you get divine intervention
Paul S Person
2020-04-01 15:48:44 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 31 Mar 2020 20:09:06 +0300, Juho Julkunen
Post by Juho Julkunen
@ix.netcom.invalid says...
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 09:59:24 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig
Post by Thomas Koenig
But the Valar aren't much better - if there is anything they could
have gotten worse in handling the whole Morgoth / Sauron situation,
I'm not sure what that would have been. Letting Sauron free was
a mistake that cost two Ages dearly.
Manwe's plan to fix the Sauron problem ("send five hobbled Maiar to do
a Valar's job") also qualifies, IMHO.
But the last time they sent the Valar to do the Valar's job, they
sank half of Middle-earth. Take a look at the maps in Silmarillion
and LotR; the easternmost lands in the former are the westernmost
in the latter, and, as Treebeard points out, now all those lands
lie under the wave.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a moment when Iluvatar told
the Valar, "Nice try, but you know what's paved with good
intentions. Next time, be *subtle.*"
Manwe's plan failed
Eru Iluvator had to intervene personally to produce even the
possibility of victory.
When God Himself takes over, you can take it that what /you/ were
planning to do was completely inadequate.
Of necessity, since you are not God. You do the best you can, and trust
that the grace of God will be with you when you need it.
Well, of course you do. And so do I.

But the topic here is Manwe's plan to send 5 hobbled Maiar to do a
Vala's job. And Manwe is (now that Morgoth has been removed)
undeniably the top of the heap.

Consider what this wishy-washy attitude cost: Numenor falling into the
sea /alone/ was arguably more catastrophic than anything Tulkas, say,
would have done striding across Middle Earth and squashing Sauron like
a bug. Which Tulkas was certainly capable of doing.

And then there is the Last Alliance, and the War of the Ring itself --
all attributable to Manwe's plan.

A plan which /failed/. Eru Iluvater /himself/ had to intervene to
salvage the situation.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
David Johnston
2020-04-01 17:01:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 09:59:24 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig
Post by Thomas Koenig
But the Valar aren't much better - if there is anything they could
have gotten worse in handling the whole Morgoth / Sauron situation,
I'm not sure what that would have been. Letting Sauron free was
a mistake that cost two Ages dearly.
Manwe's plan to fix the Sauron problem ("send five hobbled Maiar to do
a Valar's job") also qualifies, IMHO.
But the last time they sent the Valar to do the Valar's job, they
sank half of Middle-earth. Take a look at the maps in Silmarillion
and LotR; the easternmost lands in the former are the westernmost
in the latter, and, as Treebeard points out, now all those lands
lie under the wave.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a moment when Iluvatar told
the Valar, "Nice try, but you know what's paved with good
intentions. Next time, be *subtle.*"
Manwe's plan failed
Eru Iluvator had to intervene personally to produce even the
possibility of victory.
When God Himself takes over, you can take it that what /you/ were
planning to do was completely inadequate.
<shrug> The story was being written by a Catholic. Therefore no plan
to beat the devil stand-in could be successful without some "God" in the
mix.
Paul S Person
2020-04-02 16:52:16 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 11:01:51 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 09:59:24 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig
Post by Thomas Koenig
But the Valar aren't much better - if there is anything they could
have gotten worse in handling the whole Morgoth / Sauron situation,
I'm not sure what that would have been. Letting Sauron free was
a mistake that cost two Ages dearly.
Manwe's plan to fix the Sauron problem ("send five hobbled Maiar to do
a Valar's job") also qualifies, IMHO.
But the last time they sent the Valar to do the Valar's job, they
sank half of Middle-earth. Take a look at the maps in Silmarillion
and LotR; the easternmost lands in the former are the westernmost
in the latter, and, as Treebeard points out, now all those lands
lie under the wave.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a moment when Iluvatar told
the Valar, "Nice try, but you know what's paved with good
intentions. Next time, be *subtle.*"
Manwe's plan failed
Eru Iluvator had to intervene personally to produce even the
possibility of victory.
When God Himself takes over, you can take it that what /you/ were
planning to do was completely inadequate.
<shrug> The story was being written by a Catholic. Therefore no plan
to beat the devil stand-in could be successful without some "God" in the
mix.
Maybe. It depends on what is going on here.

The Devil was an Angel, thrown out of Heaven (together with his
buddies, also Angels) by Angels who stayed loyal to God. Depending on
who you consult, that's the story, more or less. God is not needed,
because the Devil is /not/ God's equal. This isn't Manachaean duality,
you know.

But Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, and the two others are all
Maiar -- second-order Angelic beings. Manwe is a first-order Angelic
being.

I see nothing anti-RC in positing that Angelic Beings can evict a
fellow Angelic Being from Middle Earth. It isn't as if they were
expecting to purge Arda of the Morgoth-stuff it was suffused with.
Just remove Sauron from the board, as they had Morgoth before him.

And, anyway, /LOTR/ was written /before/ JRRT decided to revise his
already-once-revised Legendarium to better fit the real world (no more
flat earth until the Atalante!) and RC theology.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
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