Discussion:
[Because My Tears Are Delicious to You] The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
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James Nicoll
2019-08-11 14:22:22 UTC
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The Traveler in Black by John Brunner

https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/as-dreamers
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Default User
2019-08-11 19:09:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
Similarly, some editions add Compleat” to the title.
It's interesting to consider the effect on future generations if Walton had titled his work "The Complete Angler".
Post by James Nicoll
watching people get their just desserts.
It's "just deserts", of course. Not that I'm opposed to desserts, just or unjust.


Brian
Dimensional Traveler
2019-08-11 19:15:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
Similarly, some editions add Compleat” to the title.
It's interesting to consider the effect on future generations if Walton had titled his work "The Complete Angler".
Post by James Nicoll
watching people get their just desserts.
It's "just deserts", of course. Not that I'm opposed to desserts, just or unjust.
The mnemonic I learned for that is that dessert is twice as sweet as
desert. And given the way I've always heard it said, desserts is correct.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Default User
2019-08-11 19:36:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
Similarly, some editions add Compleat” to the title.
It's interesting to consider the effect on future generations if Walton had titled his work "The Complete Angler".
Post by James Nicoll
watching people get their just desserts.
It's "just deserts", of course. Not that I'm opposed to desserts, just or unjust.
The mnemonic I learned for that is that dessert is twice as sweet as
desert. And given the way I've always heard it said, desserts is correct.
"Desert" is an archaic word meaning "that which is deserved". The Grammarist does say that "just desserts" is probably more common in writing these days. I still consider it to be incorrect.


Brian
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-11 20:03:11 UTC
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Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
Similarly, some editions add Compleat” to the title.
It's interesting to consider the effect on future generations if
Walton had titled his work "The Complete Angler".
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
watching people get their just desserts.
It's "just deserts", of course. Not that I'm opposed to desserts,
just or unjust.
Post by Dimensional Traveler
The mnemonic I learned for that is that dessert is twice as sweet as
desert. And given the way I've always heard it said, desserts is correct.
"Desert" is an archaic word meaning "that which is deserved". The
Grammarist does say that "just desserts" is probably more common in
writing these days. I still consider it to be incorrect.
I have no idea of when/how the standard spelling of "that which
is deserved" was established. (Presumably some time after Caxton.)

But "desert," now spelled with one S, means "that which is
deserted." We nowadays assume that desert land is deserted
because it's too arid to support life, but consider that a
"desert island" is usually assumed to be overgrown with tropical
vegetation, complete with coconut trees.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-08-11 21:22:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I have no idea of when/how the standard spelling of "that which
is deserved" was established. (Presumably some time after Caxton.)
But "desert," now spelled with one S, means "that which is
deserted." We nowadays assume that desert land is deserted
because it's too arid to support life, but consider that a
"desert island" is usually assumed to be overgrown with tropical
vegetation, complete with coconut trees.
Isn't that because there is no source of fresh water (other than rain)?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Robert Carnegie
2019-08-12 10:44:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I have no idea of when/how the standard spelling of "that which
is deserved" was established. (Presumably some time after Caxton.)
But "desert," now spelled with one S, means "that which is
deserted." We nowadays assume that desert land is deserted
because it's too arid to support life, but consider that a
"desert island" is usually assumed to be overgrown with tropical
vegetation, complete with coconut trees.
Or in cartoon convention, a single tree.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Isn't that because there is no source of fresh water (other than rain)?
Where isn't this the case, ultimately? (Unless you
have desalination equipment, or are Luke Skywalker,
Moisture Farmer.)
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-12 14:09:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I have no idea of when/how the standard spelling of "that which
is deserved" was established. (Presumably some time after Caxton.)
But "desert," now spelled with one S, means "that which is
deserted." We nowadays assume that desert land is deserted
because it's too arid to support life, but consider that a
"desert island" is usually assumed to be overgrown with tropical
vegetation, complete with coconut trees.
Or in cartoon convention, a single tree.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Isn't that because there is no source of fresh water (other than rain)?
Where isn't this the case, ultimately? (Unless you
have desalination equipment, or are Luke Skywalker,
Moisture Farmer.)
You don't have to be Luke Skywalker. In the Namibia Desert it
never rains AFAIK, but the night air is damp enough that
arthropods, e.g., hand out on the sands and let the dew condense
on their bodies, and then drink it.

And this:

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-21899227
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Robert Carnegie
2019-08-12 21:33:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I have no idea of when/how the standard spelling of "that which
is deserved" was established. (Presumably some time after Caxton.)
But "desert," now spelled with one S, means "that which is
deserted." We nowadays assume that desert land is deserted
because it's too arid to support life, but consider that a
"desert island" is usually assumed to be overgrown with tropical
vegetation, complete with coconut trees.
Or in cartoon convention, a single tree.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Isn't that because there is no source of fresh water (other than rain)?
Where isn't this the case, ultimately? (Unless you
have desalination equipment, or are Luke Skywalker,
Moisture Farmer.)
You don't have to be Luke Skywalker. In the Namibia Desert it
never rains AFAIK, but the night air is damp enough that
arthropods, e.g., hand out on the sands and let the dew condense
on their bodies, and then drink it.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namib#Animals_and_plants>
Ooh.

Easier than industrial-type desalination... now,
does this or the Sahara count as the world's largest beach?
Plot point in a 1950s radio comedy... I think they used
the Sahara because the audience knew the name.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-21899227
Again ooh.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Default User
2019-08-11 21:51:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
Similarly, some editions add Compleat” to the title.
It's interesting to consider the effect on future generations if
Walton had titled his work "The Complete Angler".
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
watching people get their just desserts.
It's "just deserts", of course. Not that I'm opposed to desserts,
just or unjust.
Post by Dimensional Traveler
The mnemonic I learned for that is that dessert is twice as sweet as
desert. And given the way I've always heard it said, desserts is correct.
"Desert" is an archaic word meaning "that which is deserved". The
Grammarist does say that "just desserts" is probably more common in
writing these days. I still consider it to be incorrect.
I have no idea of when/how the standard spelling of "that which
is deserved" was established. (Presumably some time after Caxton.)
But "desert," now spelled with one S, means "that which is
deserted." We nowadays assume that desert land is deserted
because it's too arid to support life, but consider that a
"desert island" is usually assumed to be overgrown with tropical
vegetation, complete with coconut trees.
Indeed, archaic uses preserved through phrases can cause confusion. In the case you cite, at least the words are related. That's not the case with "just deserts" and "just desserts".


Brian
Joe Pfeiffer
2019-08-11 23:44:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
Similarly, some editions add Compleat” to the title.
It's interesting to consider the effect on future generations if Walton had titled his work "The Complete Angler".
Post by James Nicoll
watching people get their just desserts.
It's "just deserts", of course. Not that I'm opposed to desserts, just or unjust.
The mnemonic I learned for that is that dessert is twice as sweet as
desert. And given the way I've always heard it said, desserts is correct.
"Desert" is an archaic word meaning "that which is deserved". The
Grammarist does say that "just desserts" is probably more common in
writing these days. I still consider it to be incorrect.
How should it be pronounced? I've always heard it pronounced as if it
were spelled "desserts" (accent on second syllable).
Kevrob
2019-08-11 23:57:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
Similarly, some editions add Compleat” to the title.
It's interesting to consider the effect on future generations if Walton had titled his work "The Complete Angler".
Post by James Nicoll
watching people get their just desserts.
It's "just deserts", of course. Not that I'm opposed to desserts, just or unjust.
The mnemonic I learned for that is that dessert is twice as sweet as
desert. And given the way I've always heard it said, desserts is correct.
"Desert" is an archaic word meaning "that which is deserved". The
Grammarist does say that "just desserts" is probably more common in
writing these days. I still consider it to be incorrect.
How should it be pronounced? I've always heard it pronounced as if it
were spelled "desserts" (accent on second syllable).
As a children, "dessert" was explained to us as what we would
only deserve if we ate the earlier course(s), and otherwise
behaved ourselves at table.

Dessert and desert have differing etymologies, though.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/dessert

https://www.etymonline.com/word/desert

If Mom and/or Dad are aren't strict, the undeserving may
well enjoy dessert.

Let's not get into the psychological problems of using
"the pudding" to enforce compliance, and any connection
to eating disorders.

Cue "Pink Floyd".....

Kevin R
a.a #2310
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-12 00:48:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Default User
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
Similarly, some editions add Compleat” to the title.
It's interesting to consider the effect on future generations if
Walton had titled his work "The Complete Angler".
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
watching people get their just desserts.
It's "just deserts", of course. Not that I'm opposed to desserts,
just or unjust.
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
The mnemonic I learned for that is that dessert is twice as sweet as
desert. And given the way I've always heard it said, desserts is correct.
"Desert" is an archaic word meaning "that which is deserved". The
Grammarist does say that "just desserts" is probably more common in
writing these days. I still consider it to be incorrect.
How should it be pronounced? I've always heard it pronounced as if it
were spelled "desserts" (accent on second syllable).
As a children, "dessert" was explained to us as what we would
only deserve if we ate the earlier course(s), and otherwise
behaved ourselves at table.
Dessert and desert have differing etymologies, though.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/dessert
https://www.etymonline.com/word/desert
If Mom and/or Dad are aren't strict, the undeserving may
well enjoy dessert.
Let's not get into the psychological problems of using
"the pudding" to enforce compliance, and any connection
to eating disorders.
"Pudding, Alice; Alice, Pudding."
Post by Default User
Cue "Pink Floyd".....
/whoosh
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dimensional Traveler
2019-08-12 03:52:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Default User
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
Similarly, some editions add Compleat” to the title.
It's interesting to consider the effect on future generations if
Walton had titled his work "The Complete Angler".
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
watching people get their just desserts.
It's "just deserts", of course. Not that I'm opposed to desserts,
just or unjust.
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
The mnemonic I learned for that is that dessert is twice as sweet as
desert. And given the way I've always heard it said, desserts is correct.
"Desert" is an archaic word meaning "that which is deserved". The
Grammarist does say that "just desserts" is probably more common in
writing these days. I still consider it to be incorrect.
How should it be pronounced? I've always heard it pronounced as if it
were spelled "desserts" (accent on second syllable).
As a children, "dessert" was explained to us as what we would
only deserve if we ate the earlier course(s), and otherwise
behaved ourselves at table.
Dessert and desert have differing etymologies, though.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/dessert
https://www.etymonline.com/word/desert
If Mom and/or Dad are aren't strict, the undeserving may
well enjoy dessert.
Let's not get into the psychological problems of using
"the pudding" to enforce compliance, and any connection
to eating disorders.
"Pudding, Alice; Alice, Pudding."
Post by Default User
Cue "Pink Floyd".....
/whoosh

--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Kevrob
2019-08-12 04:23:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Default User
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
Similarly, some editions add Compleat†to the title.
It's interesting to consider the effect on future generations if
Walton had titled his work "The Complete Angler".
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
watching people get their just desserts.
It's "just deserts", of course. Not that I'm opposed to desserts,
just or unjust.
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
The mnemonic I learned for that is that dessert is twice as sweet as
desert. And given the way I've always heard it said, desserts is correct.
"Desert" is an archaic word meaning "that which is deserved". The
Grammarist does say that "just desserts" is probably more common in
writing these days. I still consider it to be incorrect.
How should it be pronounced? I've always heard it pronounced as if it
were spelled "desserts" (accent on second syllable).
As a children, "dessert" was explained to us as what we would
only deserve if we ate the earlier course(s), and otherwise
behaved ourselves at table.
Dessert and desert have differing etymologies, though.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/dessert
https://www.etymonline.com/word/desert
If Mom and/or Dad are aren't strict, the undeserving may
well enjoy dessert.
Let's not get into the psychological problems of using
"the pudding" to enforce compliance, and any connection
to eating disorders.
"Pudding, Alice; Alice, Pudding."
Post by Default User
Cue "Pink Floyd".....
/whoosh
http://youtu.be/BN5Z28Dfl7o
Even shorter clip (9 secs.):



"Another Brick In The Wall - Part 2"

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-12 04:51:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Default User
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
Similarly, some editions add Compleat” to the title.
It's interesting to consider the effect on future generations if
Walton had titled his work "The Complete Angler".
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
watching people get their just desserts.
It's "just deserts", of course. Not that I'm opposed to desserts,
just or unjust.
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
The mnemonic I learned for that is that dessert is twice as sweet as
desert. And given the way I've always heard it said, desserts is correct.
"Desert" is an archaic word meaning "that which is deserved". The
Grammarist does say that "just desserts" is probably more common in
writing these days. I still consider it to be incorrect.
How should it be pronounced? I've always heard it pronounced as if it
were spelled "desserts" (accent on second syllable).
As a children, "dessert" was explained to us as what we would
only deserve if we ate the earlier course(s), and otherwise
behaved ourselves at table.
Dessert and desert have differing etymologies, though.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/dessert
https://www.etymonline.com/word/desert
If Mom and/or Dad are aren't strict, the undeserving may
well enjoy dessert.
Let's not get into the psychological problems of using
"the pudding" to enforce compliance, and any connection
to eating disorders.
"Pudding, Alice; Alice, Pudding."
Post by Default User
Cue "Pink Floyd".....
/whoosh
http://youtu.be/BN5Z28Dfl7o
Well, I have perused the lyrics (which were thoughtfully printed
out so I didn't have to listen) and I still don't get it. Sorry.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dimensional Traveler
2019-08-12 22:20:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Default User
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
Similarly, some editions add Compleat” to the title.
It's interesting to consider the effect on future generations if
Walton had titled his work "The Complete Angler".
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
watching people get their just desserts.
It's "just deserts", of course. Not that I'm opposed to desserts,
just or unjust.
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
The mnemonic I learned for that is that dessert is twice as sweet as
desert. And given the way I've always heard it said, desserts is correct.
"Desert" is an archaic word meaning "that which is deserved". The
Grammarist does say that "just desserts" is probably more common in
writing these days. I still consider it to be incorrect.
How should it be pronounced? I've always heard it pronounced as if it
were spelled "desserts" (accent on second syllable).
As a children, "dessert" was explained to us as what we would
only deserve if we ate the earlier course(s), and otherwise
behaved ourselves at table.
Dessert and desert have differing etymologies, though.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/dessert
https://www.etymonline.com/word/desert
If Mom and/or Dad are aren't strict, the undeserving may
well enjoy dessert.
Let's not get into the psychological problems of using
"the pudding" to enforce compliance, and any connection
to eating disorders.
"Pudding, Alice; Alice, Pudding."
Post by Default User
Cue "Pink Floyd".....
/whoosh
http://youtu.be/BN5Z28Dfl7o
Well, I have perused the lyrics (which were thoughtfully printed
out so I didn't have to listen) and I still don't get it. Sorry.
Diatribe about how English schools treat their students. In one part a
teacher is literally screaming at the kids that they have to eat their
meat if they want any pudding, ending with "How can you have any pudding
if you don't eat your meat!?!"
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Joe Pfeiffer
2019-08-12 23:03:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
http://youtu.be/BN5Z28Dfl7o
Well, I have perused the lyrics (which were thoughtfully printed
out so I didn't have to listen) and I still don't get it. Sorry.
The lyrics really don't convey it without hearing the performance.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-08-12 23:20:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
http://youtu.be/BN5Z28Dfl7o
Well, I have perused the lyrics (which were thoughtfully printed
out so I didn't have to listen) and I still don't get it. Sorry.
The lyrics really don't convey it without hearing the performance.
I've found that doesn't help either.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Joe Pfeiffer
2019-08-12 23:26:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
http://youtu.be/BN5Z28Dfl7o
Well, I have perused the lyrics (which were thoughtfully printed
out so I didn't have to listen) and I still don't get it. Sorry.
The lyrics really don't convey it without hearing the performance.
I've found that doesn't help either.
Really? The meaning was crystal clear to me the first time I heard it
(and I'm American, and never went to a boarding school).
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-08-12 23:33:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
http://youtu.be/BN5Z28Dfl7o
Well, I have perused the lyrics (which were thoughtfully printed
out so I didn't have to listen) and I still don't get it. Sorry.
The lyrics really don't convey it without hearing the performance.
I've found that doesn't help either.
Really? The meaning was crystal clear to me the first time I heard it
(and I'm American, and never went to a boarding school).
Well, maybe there's meaning & "meaning". I get the standard parenting
trope of "You can't have dessert until you finish your all your dinner",
but there seems to be a lot more England-specific social commentary than
just that going on in that segment and the song as a whole.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Robert Carnegie
2019-08-13 07:17:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
http://youtu.be/BN5Z28Dfl7o
Well, I have perused the lyrics (which were thoughtfully printed
out so I didn't have to listen) and I still don't get it. Sorry.
The lyrics really don't convey it without hearing the performance.
I've found that doesn't help either.
Really? The meaning was crystal clear to me the first time I heard it
(and I'm American, and never went to a boarding school).
Well, maybe there's meaning & "meaning". I get the standard parenting
trope of "You can't have dessert until you finish your all your dinner",
but there seems to be a lot more England-specific social commentary than
just that going on in that segment and the song as a whole.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
I was going to refer to Weird Al Yankovic's "Eat It"
for pronunciation; "You won't get no dessert 'till you
clean off your plate.". So, not exclusively English!
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-12 00:47:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Default User
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
Similarly, some editions add Compleat” to the title.
It's interesting to consider the effect on future generations if
Walton had titled his work "The Complete Angler".
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
watching people get their just desserts.
It's "just deserts", of course. Not that I'm opposed to desserts,
just or unjust.
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
The mnemonic I learned for that is that dessert is twice as sweet as
desert. And given the way I've always heard it said, desserts is correct.
"Desert" is an archaic word meaning "that which is deserved". The
Grammarist does say that "just desserts" is probably more common in
writing these days. I still consider it to be incorrect.
How should it be pronounced? I've always heard it pronounced as if it
were spelled "desserts" (accent on second syllable).
Actually, I've always pronounced "just des[s]erts" as though it
were spelled with a z. Because "deserve" does the same.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Joe Pfeiffer
2019-08-12 01:33:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Default User
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
Similarly, some editions add Compleat⬝ to the title.
It's interesting to consider the effect on future generations if
Walton had titled his work "The Complete Angler".
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
watching people get their just desserts.
It's "just deserts", of course. Not that I'm opposed to desserts,
just or unjust.
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
The mnemonic I learned for that is that dessert is twice as sweet as
desert. And given the way I've always heard it said, desserts is correct.
"Desert" is an archaic word meaning "that which is deserved". The
Grammarist does say that "just desserts" is probably more common in
writing these days. I still consider it to be incorrect.
How should it be pronounced? I've always heard it pronounced as if it
were spelled "desserts" (accent on second syllable).
Actually, I've always pronounced "just des[s]erts" as though it
were spelled with a z. Because "deserve" does the same.
I've always heard them (and pronounced them) as if the s or ss were a z
(like you). But I pronounce dessert as dehZERT and desert as DEZurt.
Default User
2019-08-12 06:33:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Actually, I've always pronounced "just des[s]erts" as though it
were spelled with a z. Because "deserve" does the same.
I've always heard them (and pronounced them) as if the s or ss were a z
(like you). But I pronounce dessert as dehZERT and desert as DEZurt.
There are two separate words of different origin that are spelled "desert". The one under discussion is pronounced like "dessert".


Brian
Robert Carnegie
2019-08-12 10:47:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Default User
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Actually, I've always pronounced "just des[s]erts" as though it
were spelled with a z. Because "deserve" does the same.
I've always heard them (and pronounced them) as if the s or ss were a z
(like you). But I pronounce dessert as dehZERT and desert as DEZurt.
There are two separate words of different origin that are spelled "desert". The one under discussion is pronounced like "dessert".
Glottal stop <https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2012-05-08>

"V'z gur oyrrqvat Ongzna"
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-12 14:22:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Default User
Post by Default User
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Actually, I've always pronounced "just des[s]erts" as though it
were spelled with a z. Because "deserve" does the same.
I've always heard them (and pronounced them) as if the s or ss were a z
(like you). But I pronounce dessert as dehZERT and desert as DEZurt.
There are two separate words of different origin that are spelled
"desert". The one under discussion is pronounced like "dessert".
Glottal stop <https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2012-05-08>
Okay, I'm a Yank, linguistic subset California, subsubset SF Bay
Area, and I do not do that. I say, e.g., 'rattrap', as if it
were a single word that used doubled consonants. (Such as
Finnish, which as a beginning Linguistics major I had to listen
to and transcribe accurately.)

Also, here's a link to a lecture on "fanspeak" given at a Minicon
long ago, which I bet most of you have read already, but this is
a new link not dependent on DejaNews which I could never make
work anyway.

http://web.mit.edu/munch/Public/not.humor/geekspeak

Note the bit where the speaker discusses how precisely fen speak.
Post by Default User
"V'z gur oyrrqvat Ongzna"
Dammit, I forget how to un-rot13 that.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
t***@gmail.com
2019-08-12 14:41:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Default User
Post by Default User
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Actually, I've always pronounced "just des[s]erts" as though it
were spelled with a z. Because "deserve" does the same.
I've always heard them (and pronounced them) as if the s or ss were a z
(like you). But I pronounce dessert as dehZERT and desert as DEZurt.
There are two separate words of different origin that are spelled
"desert". The one under discussion is pronounced like "dessert".
Glottal stop <https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2012-05-08>
Okay, I'm a Yank, linguistic subset California, subsubset SF Bay
Area, and I do not do that. I say, e.g., 'rattrap', as if it
were a single word that used doubled consonants. (Such as
Finnish, which as a beginning Linguistics major I had to listen
to and transcribe accurately.)
Also, here's a link to a lecture on "fanspeak" given at a Minicon
long ago, which I bet most of you have read already, but this is
a new link not dependent on DejaNews which I could never make
work anyway.
http://web.mit.edu/munch/Public/not.humor/geekspeak
Note the bit where the speaker discusses how precisely fen speak.
Post by Default User
"V'z gur oyrrqvat Ongzna"
Dammit, I forget how to un-rot13 that.
copy-and-paste into https://rot13.com/ is pretty quick
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-12 15:32:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Default User
Post by Default User
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Actually, I've always pronounced "just des[s]erts" as though it
were spelled with a z. Because "deserve" does the same.
I've always heard them (and pronounced them) as if the s or ss were a z
(like you). But I pronounce dessert as dehZERT and desert as DEZurt.
There are two separate words of different origin that are spelled
"desert". The one under discussion is pronounced like "dessert".
Glottal stop <https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2012-05-08>
Okay, I'm a Yank, linguistic subset California, subsubset SF Bay
Area, and I do not do that. I say, e.g., 'rattrap', as if it
were a single word that used doubled consonants. (Such as
Finnish, which as a beginning Linguistics major I had to listen
to and transcribe accurately.)
Also, here's a link to a lecture on "fanspeak" given at a Minicon
long ago, which I bet most of you have read already, but this is
a new link not dependent on DejaNews which I could never make
work anyway.
http://web.mit.edu/munch/Public/not.humor/geekspeak
Note the bit where the speaker discusses how precisely fen speak.
Post by Default User
"V'z gur oyrrqvat Ongzna"
Dammit, I forget how to un-rot13 that.
copy-and-paste into https://rot13.com/ is pretty quick
Thank you. There's a 2-key command in trn, but as I said, I've
forgotten what it is.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2019-08-12 19:37:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
"V'z gur oyrrqvat Ongzna"
Dammit, I forget how to un-rot13 that.
copy-and-paste into https://rot13.com/ is pretty quick
Thank you. There's a 2-key command in trn, but as I said, I've
forgotten what it is.
Shift-x.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"What happens if a big asteroid hits Earth? Judging from realistic
simulations involving a sledgehammer and a common laboratory frog,
we can assume it will be pretty bad." - Dave Barry
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-12 20:37:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
"V'z gur oyrrqvat Ongzna"
Dammit, I forget how to un-rot13 that.
copy-and-paste into https://rot13.com/ is pretty quick
Thank you. There's a 2-key command in trn, but as I said, I've
forgotten what it is.
Shift-x.
Right! Thank you. (searches for tiny Post-it and scotch tape)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2019-08-13 02:19:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
"V'z gur oyrrqvat Ongzna"
Dammit, I forget how to un-rot13 that.
copy-and-paste into https://rot13.com/ is pretty quick
Thank you. There's a 2-key command in trn, but as I said, I've
forgotten what it is.
Shift-x.
Right! Thank you. (searches for tiny Post-it and scotch tape)
Rot-13 really has fallen out of favour, hasn't it? I used to be able to
just about read it directly...

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"What happens if a big asteroid hits Earth? Judging from realistic
simulations involving a sledgehammer and a common laboratory frog,
we can assume it will be pretty bad." - Dave Barry
Gary R. Schmidt
2019-08-13 11:59:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
"V'z gur oyrrqvat Ongzna"
Dammit, I forget how to un-rot13 that.
copy-and-paste into https://rot13.com/ is pretty quick
Thank you. There's a 2-key command in trn, but as I said, I've
forgotten what it is.
Shift-x.
Right! Thank you. (searches for tiny Post-it and scotch tape)
Rot-13 really has fallen out of favour, hasn't it? I used to be able to
just about read it directly...
Same here, but the *really* amusing thing about ROT-13 is that it is an
adequate level of encryption (yes, encryption) to satisfy the
Sarbanes-Oxley Act, and similar legal fripperies all over the world... ;-)

Cheers,
Gary B-)
--
When men talk to their friends, they insult each other.
They don't really mean it.
When women talk to their friends, they compliment each other.
They don't mean it either.
Joe Pfeiffer
2019-08-12 15:29:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Default User
Post by Default User
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Actually, I've always pronounced "just des[s]erts" as though it
were spelled with a z. Because "deserve" does the same.
I've always heard them (and pronounced them) as if the s or ss were a z
(like you). But I pronounce dessert as dehZERT and desert as DEZurt.
There are two separate words of different origin that are spelled
"desert". The one under discussion is pronounced like "dessert".
Glottal stop <https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2012-05-08>
Okay, I'm a Yank, linguistic subset California, subsubset SF Bay
Area, and I do not do that. I say, e.g., 'rattrap', as if it
were a single word that used doubled consonants. (Such as
Finnish, which as a beginning Linguistics major I had to listen
to and transcribe accurately.)
Also, here's a link to a lecture on "fanspeak" given at a Minicon
long ago, which I bet most of you have read already, but this is
a new link not dependent on DejaNews which I could never make
work anyway.
http://web.mit.edu/munch/Public/not.humor/geekspeak
I'm pretty sure I don't do it either (raised in Seattle, have spent most
of my life in southern NM). I've done a lot of public speaking (career
as a professor, lector at church, amateur stage actor) and so try to
speak very precisely.

But I'd have to hear a covert recording of my self to be absolutely
certain.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-12 15:43:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Default User
Post by Default User
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Actually, I've always pronounced "just des[s]erts" as though it
were spelled with a z. Because "deserve" does the same.
I've always heard them (and pronounced them) as if the s or ss were a z
(like you). But I pronounce dessert as dehZERT and desert as DEZurt.
There are two separate words of different origin that are spelled
"desert". The one under discussion is pronounced like "dessert".
Glottal stop <https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2012-05-08>
Okay, I'm a Yank, linguistic subset California, subsubset SF Bay
Area, and I do not do that. I say, e.g., 'rattrap', as if it
were a single word that used doubled consonants. (Such as
Finnish, which as a beginning Linguistics major I had to listen
to and transcribe accurately.)
Also, here's a link to a lecture on "fanspeak" given at a Minicon
long ago, which I bet most of you have read already, but this is
a new link not dependent on DejaNews which I could never make
work anyway.
http://web.mit.edu/munch/Public/not.humor/geekspeak
I'm pretty sure I don't do it either (raised in Seattle, have spent most
of my life in southern NM). I've done a lot of public speaking (career
as a professor, lector at church, amateur stage actor) and so try to
speak very precisely.
But I'd have to hear a covert recording of my self to be absolutely
certain.
I know a glottal stop when I hear it, and the only time I hear
myself use one (other than deliberately) is when I say "uh-oh."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2019-08-12 16:22:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
http://web.mit.edu/munch/Public/not.humor/geekspeak
I'm pretty sure I don't do it either (raised in Seattle, have spent most
of my life in southern NM). I've done a lot of public speaking (career
as a professor, lector at church, amateur stage actor) and so try to
speak very precisely.
But I'd have to hear a covert recording of my self to be absolutely
certain.
I expect I may run double consonants of the "rat trap" type together if I
am excited and speaking swiftly. I grew up on New York's Long Island, and
my mother was from Brooklyn, my father from Queens. My Midwestern friends
used to call it "going into Ratso Rizzo mode." We had teachers (nuns) in my
Catholic gradeschool from Fahl Rivah, Mass and Bal'more, Merlan' and I may
have picked things up from them. I debated and competed in speech competitions
in high school. My speech event was "Extemperaneous Speaking," and I was
given training in how to "slow down!!!" for Extemp, and sound measured and
and thoughtful. My debate ballots often had a "speaks too quickly" comment on
them, but speaking fast was enedemic among policy debaters in our area. I
also was trained in public speaking (church lector, high school and college
plays) where proper enunciation for the text one was reading, or the part one
was playing was emphasized. I also had a show on our college's carrier-current
AM radio station for a few semesters. [Notes: Watch your p-popping, and your
sibilance! And don't "eat the mike!"]

I also say all the consonants in "Batman." After all, he was originally
"The Bat-Man," and a pause for the hyphen would be normal. :)

Now, what I thnk I say and what people hear....

Kevin R
David Goldfarb
2019-08-13 02:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
"V'z gur oyrrqvat Ongzna"
Dammit, I forget how to un-rot13 that.
shift-X.
--
David Goldfarb |"An athiest is a person who wierdly refuses
***@gmail.com |to recieve the gift of beleif in a diety."
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Dave Langford, on rec.arts.sf.fandom
thnidu
2019-08-19 02:09:31 UTC
Permalink
"Dessert" is one of a handful of English words in which the "z" sound is represented by "ss". "Possess" is another.

Mark A. Mandel

aka Dr. Whom: Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoëpist, and Philological Busybody
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Default User
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
Similarly, some editions add Compleat” to the title.
It's interesting to consider the effect on future generations if
Walton had titled his work "The Complete Angler".
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
watching people get their just desserts.
It's "just deserts", of course. Not that I'm opposed to desserts,
just or unjust.
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
The mnemonic I learned for that is that dessert is twice as sweet as
desert. And given the way I've always heard it said, desserts is correct.
"Desert" is an archaic word meaning "that which is deserved". The
Grammarist does say that "just desserts" is probably more common in
writing these days. I still consider it to be incorrect.
How should it be pronounced? I've always heard it pronounced as if it
were spelled "desserts" (accent on second syllable).
Actually, I've always pronounced "just des[s]erts" as though it
were spelled with a z. Because "deserve" does the same.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Default User
2019-08-12 06:30:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Default User
"Desert" is an archaic word meaning "that which is deserved". The
Grammarist does say that "just desserts" is probably more common in
writing these days. I still consider it to be incorrect.
How should it be pronounced? I've always heard it pronounced as if it
were spelled "desserts" (accent on second syllable).
Indeed they are homophones.


Brian
t***@gmail.com
2019-08-12 14:43:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/as-dreamers
This is my favorite Brunner - is there anything similar in his body of work?
I'm even struggling to recall other fantasy works by him.

Tony
Titus G
2019-08-16 05:13:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/as-dreamers
This is my favorite Brunner - is there anything similar in his body of work?
I'm even struggling to recall other fantasy works by him.
Tony
I had forgotten any of Brunner's that I had read and am enjoying your
recent Smith and Trowbridge recommendation so much that I read this and
agree more with James' comment that it is a fantasy genre now out of
fashion as it seemed very stilted with many archaic language choices
such as 'descries' and somewhat meandering. I read the well printed,
well bound mobi version with four novelettes and grinned with the
non-stop comedy:
"Her family had in the past been counted among the most lascivious of Ys
[sic Ys is a city], and excessive indulgence by its womenfolk in the
pleasures of the bed had often threatened to overpopulate the resources
of their not inconsiderable estates. Accordingly there was a cellar
where surplus children had for generations been discreetly disposed of,
not by crude and brutal means but by consigning the problem of their
nourishment to the fates. She entered this cellar by a bronze door,
which she locked with a heavy key, and passed between rows of wooden
stalls in each of which a set of rat-gnawed bones lay on foul straw,
gyves about one ankle."

As well as 'gyves' there were more words to look up including one which
even Dorothy might not know. pollywog?
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-08-16 05:20:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/as-dreamers
This is my favorite Brunner - is there anything similar in his body of work?
I'm even struggling to recall other fantasy works by him.
Tony
I had forgotten any of Brunner's that I had read and am enjoying your
recent Smith and Trowbridge recommendation so much that I read this and
agree more with James' comment that it is a fantasy genre now out of
fashion as it seemed very stilted with many archaic language choices
such as 'descries' and somewhat meandering. I read the well printed,
well bound mobi version with four novelettes and grinned with the
"Her family had in the past been counted among the most lascivious of Ys
[sic Ys is a city], and excessive indulgence by its womenfolk in the
pleasures of the bed had often threatened to overpopulate the resources
of their not inconsiderable estates. Accordingly there was a cellar
where surplus children had for generations been discreetly disposed of,
not by crude and brutal means but by consigning the problem of their
nourishment to the fates. She entered this cellar by a bronze door,
which she locked with a heavy key, and passed between rows of wooden
stalls in each of which a set of rat-gnawed bones lay on foul straw,
gyves about one ankle."
The ancients really did handle excess kids much like this. Except
they would be "exposed", ie left somewhere in the wilderness rather than
in a special room. The fond hope was that someone would adopt an exposed
child, and indeed that sometimes happened if by adopt you mean "enslave",
but of course they usually perished.
Post by Titus G
As well as 'gyves' there were more words to look up including one which
even Dorothy might not know. pollywog?
If that means 'tadpole' it's a very common word, at least among my cohort.
Perhaps kids don't get outside much anymore. If it also means something
else, then, yes, I'm ignorant of that.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Titus G
2019-08-16 05:41:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/as-dreamers
This is my favorite Brunner - is there anything similar in his body of work?
I'm even struggling to recall other fantasy works by him.
Tony
I had forgotten any of Brunner's that I had read and am enjoying your
recent Smith and Trowbridge recommendation so much that I read this and
agree more with James' comment that it is a fantasy genre now out of
fashion as it seemed very stilted with many archaic language choices
such as 'descries' and somewhat meandering. I read the well printed,
well bound mobi version with four novelettes and grinned with the
"Her family had in the past been counted among the most lascivious of Ys
[sic Ys is a city], and excessive indulgence by its womenfolk in the
pleasures of the bed had often threatened to overpopulate the resources
of their not inconsiderable estates. Accordingly there was a cellar
where surplus children had for generations been discreetly disposed of,
not by crude and brutal means but by consigning the problem of their
nourishment to the fates. She entered this cellar by a bronze door,
which she locked with a heavy key, and passed between rows of wooden
stalls in each of which a set of rat-gnawed bones lay on foul straw,
gyves about one ankle."
The ancients really did handle excess kids much like this. Except
they would be "exposed", ie left somewhere in the wilderness rather than
in a special room. The fond hope was that someone would adopt an exposed
child, and indeed that sometimes happened if by adopt you mean "enslave",
but of course they usually perished.
That is horrific. I read to escape reality so don't usually make
conscious connection with facts when reading fantasy. For me, the comedy
in the above extract comes in with "not by crude and brutal means" and
the overall context.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
As well as 'gyves' there were more words to look up including one which
even Dorothy might not know. pollywog?
If that means 'tadpole' it's a very common word, at least among my cohort.
Perhaps kids don't get outside much anymore. If it also means something
else, then, yes, I'm ignorant of that.
Ooops. I think the problem here is that it is not and has not been a
common word in New Zealand and I have never encountered it before so
sorry for MY ignorance. I am delighted with the word; sounds great.
Dimensional Traveler
2019-08-16 12:54:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Titus G
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/as-dreamers
This is my favorite Brunner - is there anything similar in his body of work?
I'm even struggling to recall other fantasy works by him.
Tony
I had forgotten any of Brunner's that I had read and am enjoying your
recent Smith and Trowbridge recommendation so much that I read this and
agree more with James' comment that it is a fantasy genre now out of
fashion as it seemed very stilted with many archaic language choices
such as 'descries' and somewhat meandering. I read the well printed,
well bound mobi version with four novelettes and grinned with the
"Her family had in the past been counted among the most lascivious of Ys
[sic Ys is a city], and excessive indulgence by its womenfolk in the
pleasures of the bed had often threatened to overpopulate the resources
of their not inconsiderable estates. Accordingly there was a cellar
where surplus children had for generations been discreetly disposed of,
not by crude and brutal means but by consigning the problem of their
nourishment to the fates. She entered this cellar by a bronze door,
which she locked with a heavy key, and passed between rows of wooden
stalls in each of which a set of rat-gnawed bones lay on foul straw,
gyves about one ankle."
The ancients really did handle excess kids much like this.  Except
they would be "exposed", ie left somewhere in the wilderness rather than
in a special room.  The fond hope was that someone would adopt an exposed
child, and indeed that sometimes happened if by adopt you mean "enslave",
but of course they usually perished.
That is horrific. I read to escape reality so don't usually make
conscious connection with facts when reading fantasy. For me, the comedy
in the above extract comes in with "not by crude and brutal means" and
the overall context.
Post by Titus G
As well as 'gyves' there were more words to look up including one which
even Dorothy might not know. pollywog?
If that means 'tadpole' it's a very common word, at least among my cohort.
Perhaps kids don't get outside much anymore.  If it also means something
else, then, yes, I'm ignorant of that.
Ooops. I think the problem here is that it is not and has not been a
common word in New Zealand and I have never encountered it before so
sorry for MY ignorance. I am delighted with the word; sounds great.
In some parts of the US it is used as a slang term for a child, like
calling one a "rug rat".
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-16 14:24:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Titus G
Post by Titus G
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/as-dreamers
This is my favorite Brunner - is there anything similar in his body of work?
I'm even struggling to recall other fantasy works by him.
Tony
I had forgotten any of Brunner's that I had read and am enjoying your
recent Smith and Trowbridge recommendation so much that I read this and
agree more with James' comment that it is a fantasy genre now out of
fashion as it seemed very stilted with many archaic language choices
such as 'descries' and somewhat meandering. I read the well printed,
well bound mobi version with four novelettes and grinned with the
"Her family had in the past been counted among the most lascivious of Ys
[sic Ys is a city], and excessive indulgence by its womenfolk in the
pleasures of the bed had often threatened to overpopulate the resources
of their not inconsiderable estates. Accordingly there was a cellar
where surplus children had for generations been discreetly disposed of,
not by crude and brutal means but by consigning the problem of their
nourishment to the fates. She entered this cellar by a bronze door,
which she locked with a heavy key, and passed between rows of wooden
stalls in each of which a set of rat-gnawed bones lay on foul straw,
gyves about one ankle."
The ancients really did handle excess kids much like this.  Except
they would be "exposed", ie left somewhere in the wilderness rather than
in a special room.  The fond hope was that someone would adopt an exposed
child, and indeed that sometimes happened if by adopt you mean "enslave",
but of course they usually perished.
That is horrific. I read to escape reality so don't usually make
conscious connection with facts when reading fantasy. For me, the comedy
in the above extract comes in with "not by crude and brutal means" and
the overall context.
Post by Titus G
As well as 'gyves' there were more words to look up including one which
even Dorothy might not know. pollywog?
If that means 'tadpole' it's a very common word, at least among my cohort.
Perhaps kids don't get outside much anymore.  If it also means something
else, then, yes, I'm ignorant of that.
Ooops. I think the problem here is that it is not and has not been a
common word in New Zealand and I have never encountered it before so
sorry for MY ignorance. I am delighted with the word; sounds great.
In some parts of the US it is used as a slang term for a child, like
calling one a "rug rat".
Now, *that* usage I never encountered; we always used it for a
tadpole.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Carl Fink
2019-08-18 12:07:16 UTC
Permalink
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-18 14:16:42 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Titus G
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
As well as 'gyves' there were more words to look up including one which
even Dorothy might not know. pollywog?
If that means 'tadpole' it's a very common word, at least among my cohort.
Perhaps kids don't get outside much anymore.  If it also means something
else, then, yes, I'm ignorant of that.
Ooops. I think the problem here is that it is not and has not been a
common word in New Zealand and I have never encountered it before so
sorry for MY ignorance. I am delighted with the word; sounds great.
In some parts of the US it is used as a slang term for a child, like
calling one a "rug rat".
Now, *that* usage I never encountered; we always used it for a
tadpole.
It's like "kid", referring to immature humans as being a different kind of
immature animal. Related to hypocorism, speaking of unusual words.
(Dorothy knows this, but if anyone else does not: "kid" is an immature goat,
as "lamb" is an immature sheep, but it has become near-universal slang in
American English for "child," to the point where many people don't realize
it started out with a different meaning.)
I have an early 20thC children's book in which a few children are
temporarily transported back into the 17th century, and the
eldest thinks "Gosh, we must be in the days of Captain Kidd.
Maybe he wasn't all that bad, he probably had a wife and a kid or
two ... I guess it isn't slang to call them Kidds."

Showing that "kid" for "child" was sufficiently new slang around
the beginning of the 20th century that the grownups would correct
children for using it.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Joe Pfeiffer
2019-08-18 15:25:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
[snip]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Titus G
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
As well as 'gyves' there were more words to look up including one which
even Dorothy might not know. pollywog?
If that means 'tadpole' it's a very common word, at least among my cohort.
Perhaps kids don't get outside much anymore.  If it also means something
else, then, yes, I'm ignorant of that.
Ooops. I think the problem here is that it is not and has not been a
common word in New Zealand and I have never encountered it before so
sorry for MY ignorance. I am delighted with the word; sounds great.
In some parts of the US it is used as a slang term for a child, like
calling one a "rug rat".
Now, *that* usage I never encountered; we always used it for a
tadpole.
It's like "kid", referring to immature humans as being a different kind of
immature animal. Related to hypocorism, speaking of unusual words.
(Dorothy knows this, but if anyone else does not: "kid" is an immature goat,
as "lamb" is an immature sheep, but it has become near-universal slang in
American English for "child," to the point where many people don't realize
it started out with a different meaning.)
I have an early 20thC children's book in which a few children are
temporarily transported back into the 17th century, and the
eldest thinks "Gosh, we must be in the days of Captain Kidd.
Maybe he wasn't all that bad, he probably had a wife and a kid or
two ... I guess it isn't slang to call them Kidds."
Showing that "kid" for "child" was sufficiently new slang around
the beginning of the 20th century that the grownups would correct
children for using it.
Or at least that the author *really* wanted to make the joke.
Checking...
https://www.etymonline.com/word/kid
Extended meaning "child" is first recorded as slang 1590s,
established in informal usage by 1840s. Applied to skillful young
thieves and pugilists at least since 1812. Kid stuff "something
easy" is from 1913 (the phrase was in use about that time in
reference to vaudeville acts or advertisements featuring children,
and to child-oriented features in newspapers).
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-18 16:24:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
[snip]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Titus G
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
As well as 'gyves' there were more words to look up including one which
even Dorothy might not know. pollywog?
If that means 'tadpole' it's a very common word, at least among my cohort.
Perhaps kids don't get outside much anymore.  If it also means
something
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Titus G
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
else, then, yes, I'm ignorant of that.
Ooops. I think the problem here is that it is not and has not been a
common word in New Zealand and I have never encountered it before so
sorry for MY ignorance. I am delighted with the word; sounds great.
In some parts of the US it is used as a slang term for a child, like
calling one a "rug rat".
Now, *that* usage I never encountered; we always used it for a
tadpole.
It's like "kid", referring to immature humans as being a different kind of
immature animal. Related to hypocorism, speaking of unusual words.
(Dorothy knows this, but if anyone else does not: "kid" is an immature goat,
as "lamb" is an immature sheep, but it has become near-universal slang in
American English for "child," to the point where many people don't realize
it started out with a different meaning.)
I have an early 20thC children's book in which a few children are
temporarily transported back into the 17th century, and the
eldest thinks "Gosh, we must be in the days of Captain Kidd.
Maybe he wasn't all that bad, he probably had a wife and a kid or
two ... I guess it isn't slang to call them Kidds."
Showing that "kid" for "child" was sufficiently new slang around
the beginning of the 20th century that the grownups would correct
children for using it.
Or at least that the author *really* wanted to make the joke.
Checking...
https://www.etymonline.com/word/kid
Extended meaning "child" is first recorded as slang 1590s,
established in informal usage by 1840s. Applied to skillful young
thieves and pugilists at least since 1812. Kid stuff "something
easy" is from 1913 (the phrase was in use about that time in
reference to vaudeville acts or advertisements featuring children,
and to child-oriented features in newspapers).
All right! I sit corrected.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
D B Davis
2019-08-18 15:25:24 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Titus G
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
As well as 'gyves' there were more words to look up including one which
even Dorothy might not know. pollywog?
If that means 'tadpole' it's a very common word, at least among my cohort.
Perhaps kids don't get outside much anymore.?? If it also means something
else, then, yes, I'm ignorant of that.
Ooops. I think the problem here is that it is not and has not been a
common word in New Zealand and I have never encountered it before so
sorry for MY ignorance. I am delighted with the word; sounds great.
In some parts of the US it is used as a slang term for a child, like
calling one a "rug rat".
Now, *that* usage I never encountered; we always used it for a
tadpole.
It's like "kid", referring to immature humans as being a different kind of
immature animal. Related to hypocorism, speaking of unusual words.
(Dorothy knows this, but if anyone else does not: "kid" is an immature goat,
as "lamb" is an immature sheep, but it has become near-universal slang in
American English for "child," to the point where many people don't realize
it started out with a different meaning.)
There was a cute kid who cuddled her pet kid at the Central Wyoming
State Fair live stock exhibit this year.



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Joy Beeson
2019-08-19 03:25:19 UTC
Permalink
(Dorothy knows this, but if anyone else does not: "kid" is an immature goat,
as "lamb" is an immature sheep, but it has become near-universal slang in
American English for "child," to the point where many people don't realize
it started out with a different meaning.)
When I was a child, we were taught to say, indignantly, "I am not a
baby goat!" but the battle has long since been lost.

Possibly because there are no more goats, except at the county fair.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
thnidu
2019-08-19 04:23:09 UTC
Permalink
Please, please! That's the way it seems to us urbanites and suburbanites. But for those who live in the country it's another story.
Kevrob
2019-08-19 05:32:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by thnidu
Please, please! That's the way it seems to us urbanites and suburbanites.
But for those who live in the country it's another story.
Stop at any halal butcher, or one catering to Jamaicans.
They will sell you goat. Some Jamaican restaurants near me
will deliver jerked goat.

Farmers who raise goats will rent them out as an alternative
to using a lawnmower, which works very well on steep hills
that are difficult to mow with machines. Dorothy H has reported
on this.

They are at work on this coast, too.

https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/Goats-are-taking-a-bite-out-of-Edgewood-Park-in-12931550.php

see also:

https://homeguides.sfgate.com/use-goat-instead-lawn-mower-76492.html

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-19 13:36:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by thnidu
Please, please! That's the way it seems to us urbanites and suburbanites.
But for those who live in the country it's another story.
Stop at any halal butcher, or one catering to Jamaicans.
They will sell you goat. Some Jamaican restaurants near me
will deliver jerked goat.
Of course, first find your halal butcher. This will depend on
how cosmopolitan your area is. There's at least one (I suspect
more) in Berkeley, but I know of none in Vallejo.
Post by Kevrob
Farmers who raise goats will rent them out as an alternative
to using a lawnmower, which works very well on steep hills
that are difficult to mow with machines. Dorothy H has reported
on this.
They are at work on this coast, too.
https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/Goats-are-taking-a-bite-out-of-Edgewood-Park-in-12931550.php
Good!
Post by Kevrob
https://homeguides.sfgate.com/use-goat-instead-lawn-mower-76492.html
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Scott Lurndal
2019-08-19 14:28:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by thnidu
Please, please! That's the way it seems to us urbanites and suburbanites.
But for those who live in the country it's another story.
Stop at any halal butcher, or one catering to Jamaicans.
They will sell you goat. Some Jamaican restaurants near me
will deliver jerked goat.
Of course, first find your halal butcher. This will depend on
how cosmopolitan your area is. There's at least one (I suspect
more) in Berkeley, but I know of none in Vallejo.
Then try the local Mexican Market or taqueria. Ask for Chivo. Yum.

I'm sure you'll find one in Vallejo.
Mike M
2019-08-20 07:35:58 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Titus G
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
As well as 'gyves' there were more words to look up including one which
even Dorothy might not know. pollywog?
If that means 'tadpole' it's a very common word, at least among my cohort.
Perhaps kids don't get outside much anymore.  If it also means something
else, then, yes, I'm ignorant of that.
Ooops. I think the problem here is that it is not and has not been a
common word in New Zealand and I have never encountered it before so
sorry for MY ignorance. I am delighted with the word; sounds great.
In some parts of the US it is used as a slang term for a child, like
calling one a "rug rat".
Now, *that* usage I never encountered; we always used it for a
tadpole.
It's like "kid", referring to immature humans as being a different kind of
immature animal. Related to hypocorism, speaking of unusual words.
(Dorothy knows this, but if anyone else does not: "kid" is an immature goat,
as "lamb" is an immature sheep, but it has become near-universal slang in
American English for "child," to the point where many people don't realize
it started out with a different meaning.)
One hopes those people never try to make kid gloves then ...
--
Save r.a.dw! Killfile Aggy. Killfile Yads. Killfile Tim B. Killfile %.
Discommendation is the only solution.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-16 14:23:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
As well as 'gyves' there were more words to look up including one which
even Dorothy might not know. pollywog?
If that means 'tadpole' it's a very common word, at least among my cohort.
Perhaps kids don't get outside much anymore. If it also means something
else, then, yes, I'm ignorant of that.
Ooops. I think the problem here is that it is not and has not been a
common word in New Zealand and I have never encountered it before so
sorry for MY ignorance. I am delighted with the word; sounds great.
It's common in the US, or was in my distant youth. Since Brunner
used it, I assume it started in England and traveled here and
didn't travel there.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Stephen Harker
2019-08-16 21:15:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
As well as 'gyves' there were more words to look up including one which
even Dorothy might not know. pollywog?
If that means 'tadpole' it's a very common word, at least among my cohort.
Perhaps kids don't get outside much anymore. If it also means something
else, then, yes, I'm ignorant of that.
Ooops. I think the problem here is that it is not and has not been a
common word in New Zealand and I have never encountered it before so
sorry for MY ignorance. I am delighted with the word; sounds great.
It's common in the US, or was in my distant youth. Since Brunner
used it, I assume it started in England and traveled here and
didn't travel there.
It is certainly known in Australia. How common it is I cannot say, but
my parents (one from Sydney and one from Melbourne) both knew and used
the word.
--
Stephen Harker ***@netspace.net.au
was: http://sjharker.customer.netspace.net.au/
now: http://members.iinet.net.au/~***@netspace.net.au/
or: http://members.iinet.net.au/~sjharker_nbn/
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-08-16 21:33:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Harker
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
As well as 'gyves' there were more words to look up including one which
even Dorothy might not know. pollywog?
If that means 'tadpole' it's a very common word, at least among my cohort.
Perhaps kids don't get outside much anymore. If it also means something
else, then, yes, I'm ignorant of that.
Ooops. I think the problem here is that it is not and has not been a
common word in New Zealand and I have never encountered it before so
sorry for MY ignorance. I am delighted with the word; sounds great.
It's common in the US, or was in my distant youth. Since Brunner
used it, I assume it started in England and traveled here and
didn't travel there.
It is certainly known in Australia. How common it is I cannot say, but
my parents (one from Sydney and one from Melbourne) both knew and used
the word.
As Titus says it is a delightful word. The surprising thing is that
'tadpole' is a fun word too. Perhaps there is something inherently
endearing about frog spawn.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Kevrob
2019-08-16 21:56:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Stephen Harker
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
As well as 'gyves' there were more words to look up including one which
even Dorothy might not know. pollywog?
If that means 'tadpole' it's a very common word, at least among my cohort.
Perhaps kids don't get outside much anymore. If it also means something
else, then, yes, I'm ignorant of that.
Ooops. I think the problem here is that it is not and has not been a
common word in New Zealand and I have never encountered it before so
sorry for MY ignorance. I am delighted with the word; sounds great.
It's common in the US, or was in my distant youth. Since Brunner
used it, I assume it started in England and traveled here and
didn't travel there.
It is certainly known in Australia. How common it is I cannot say, but
my parents (one from Sydney and one from Melbourne) both knew and used
the word.
As Titus says it is a delightful word. The surprising thing is that
'tadpole' is a fun word too. Perhaps there is something inherently
endearing about frog spawn.
--
There are a lot of fun words about the anklebiters, crumb crunchers, etc.
The English use "sprog," which is supposed to be derived from "sprag,"
meaning a "lively young fellow" and/or a young salmon. I prefer the latter,
because if true, it gets us back to "small fry."

http://www.word-detective.com/112700.html

http://www.word-detective.com/2010/06/fizzer/

Kevin R
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-08-16 22:09:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Stephen Harker
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
As well as 'gyves' there were more words to look up including one which
even Dorothy might not know. pollywog?
If that means 'tadpole' it's a very common word, at least among
my cohort.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Stephen Harker
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Perhaps kids don't get outside much anymore. If it also means something
else, then, yes, I'm ignorant of that.
Ooops. I think the problem here is that it is not and has not been a
common word in New Zealand and I have never encountered it before so
sorry for MY ignorance. I am delighted with the word; sounds great.
It's common in the US, or was in my distant youth. Since Brunner
used it, I assume it started in England and traveled here and
didn't travel there.
It is certainly known in Australia. How common it is I cannot say, but
my parents (one from Sydney and one from Melbourne) both knew and used
the word.
As Titus says it is a delightful word. The surprising thing is that
'tadpole' is a fun word too. Perhaps there is something inherently
endearing about frog spawn.
--
There are a lot of fun words about the anklebiters, crumb crunchers, etc.
The English use "sprog," which is supposed to be derived from "sprag,"
meaning a "lively young fellow" and/or a young salmon. I prefer the latter,
because if true, it gets us back to "small fry."
http://www.word-detective.com/112700.html
http://www.word-detective.com/2010/06/fizzer/
Kevin R

--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Kevrob
2019-08-17 14:12:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
..... I prefer the latter,
because if true, it gets us back to "small fry."
http://www.word-detective.com/112700.html
http://www.word-detective.com/2010/06/fizzer/
Kevin R
http://youtu.be/IbGw5quqGn0
I enjoyed that. Thanks!

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-16 23:41:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Stephen Harker
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
As well as 'gyves' there were more words to look up including one which
even Dorothy might not know. pollywog?
If that means 'tadpole' it's a very common word, at least among
my cohort.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Stephen Harker
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Perhaps kids don't get outside much anymore. If it also means something
else, then, yes, I'm ignorant of that.
Ooops. I think the problem here is that it is not and has not been a
common word in New Zealand and I have never encountered it before so
sorry for MY ignorance. I am delighted with the word; sounds great.
It's common in the US, or was in my distant youth. Since Brunner
used it, I assume it started in England and traveled here and
didn't travel there.
It is certainly known in Australia. How common it is I cannot say, but
my parents (one from Sydney and one from Melbourne) both knew and used
the word.
As Titus says it is a delightful word. The surprising thing is that
'tadpole' is a fun word too. Perhaps there is something inherently
endearing about frog spawn.
--
There are a lot of fun words about the anklebiters, crumb crunchers, etc.
The English use "sprog," which is supposed to be derived from "sprag,"
meaning a "lively young fellow" and/or a young salmon. I prefer the latter,
because if true, it gets us back to "small fry."
Cookie-snatchers, and I think someone already mentioned
rug-rodents.

We picked up the word "snerp" from Adrienne Martine-Barnes when
our kids were small, and my daughter used it for her son when he
was at the same stage.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
http://www.word-detective.com/112700.html
Crib lizards! That's a new one for me.

As to "dinks," in my part of the world it was "dinky", which may
have added the -y suffix in imitation of "hippie" or some other
word, or it may have stealthily met "double income, no kids yet."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-16 23:32:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Stephen Harker
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
As well as 'gyves' there were more words to look up including one which
even Dorothy might not know. pollywog?
If that means 'tadpole' it's a very common word, at least among my cohort.
Perhaps kids don't get outside much anymore. If it also means something
else, then, yes, I'm ignorant of that.
Ooops. I think the problem here is that it is not and has not been a
common word in New Zealand and I have never encountered it before so
sorry for MY ignorance. I am delighted with the word; sounds great.
It's common in the US, or was in my distant youth. Since Brunner
used it, I assume it started in England and traveled here and
didn't travel there.
It is certainly known in Australia. How common it is I cannot say, but
my parents (one from Sydney and one from Melbourne) both knew and used
the word.
As Titus says it is a delightful word. The surprising thing is that
'tadpole' is a fun word too. Perhaps there is something inherently
endearing about frog spawn.
Well, it's the way they wiggle.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Moriarty
2019-08-19 00:45:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Harker
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
As well as 'gyves' there were more words to look up including one which
even Dorothy might not know. pollywog?
If that means 'tadpole' it's a very common word, at least among my cohort.
Perhaps kids don't get outside much anymore. If it also means something
else, then, yes, I'm ignorant of that.
Ooops. I think the problem here is that it is not and has not been a
common word in New Zealand and I have never encountered it before so
sorry for MY ignorance. I am delighted with the word; sounds great.
It's common in the US, or was in my distant youth. Since Brunner
used it, I assume it started in England and traveled here and
didn't travel there.
It is certainly known in Australia. How common it is I cannot say, but
my parents (one from Sydney and one from Melbourne) both knew and used
the word.
Well, I'm Australian and I knew the word, though I've probably never used it as we call them tadpoles.

But I knew it from reading the Oz books where pollywogs made an appearance at some point.

-Moriarty
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-19 01:21:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moriarty
Post by Stephen Harker
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
As well as 'gyves' there were more words to look up including one which
even Dorothy might not know. pollywog?
If that means 'tadpole' it's a very common word, at least among my cohort.
Perhaps kids don't get outside much anymore. If it also means something
else, then, yes, I'm ignorant of that.
Ooops. I think the problem here is that it is not and has not been a
common word in New Zealand and I have never encountered it before so
sorry for MY ignorance. I am delighted with the word; sounds great.
It's common in the US, or was in my distant youth. Since Brunner
used it, I assume it started in England and traveled here and
didn't travel there.
It is certainly known in Australia. How common it is I cannot say, but
my parents (one from Sydney and one from Melbourne) both knew and used
the word.
Well, I'm Australian and I knew the word, though I've probably never
used it as we call them tadpoles.
But I knew it from reading the Oz books where pollywogs made an
appearance at some point.
Well, there you are; Baum was a Yank.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
-dsr-
2019-08-16 15:04:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
As well as 'gyves' there were more words to look up including one which
even Dorothy might not know. pollywog?
If that means 'tadpole' it's a very common word, at least among my cohort.
Perhaps kids don't get outside much anymore. If it also means something
else, then, yes, I'm ignorant of that.
Ooops. I think the problem here is that it is not and has not been a
common word in New Zealand and I have never encountered it before so
sorry for MY ignorance. I am delighted with the word; sounds great.
In upstate New York in the 1980s, if you were the sort of person who
referred to a stream as a creek but pronounced it "crick", then you used
the word pollywog instead of tadpole.

And most creeks had tadpoles, and subsequently frogs; the ponds that they
drained to had fish that liked to eat the tadpoles and herons that ate
the fish and frogs.

-dsr-
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-16 14:20:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/as-dreamers
This is my favorite Brunner - is there anything similar in his body of work?
I'm even struggling to recall other fantasy works by him.
Tony
I had forgotten any of Brunner's that I had read and am enjoying your
recent Smith and Trowbridge recommendation so much that I read this and
agree more with James' comment that it is a fantasy genre now out of
fashion as it seemed very stilted with many archaic language choices
such as 'descries' and somewhat meandering. I read the well printed,
well bound mobi version with four novelettes and grinned with the
"Her family had in the past been counted among the most lascivious of Ys
[sic Ys is a city], and excessive indulgence by its womenfolk in the
pleasures of the bed had often threatened to overpopulate the resources
of their not inconsiderable estates. Accordingly there was a cellar
where surplus children had for generations been discreetly disposed of,
not by crude and brutal means but by consigning the problem of their
nourishment to the fates. She entered this cellar by a bronze door,
which she locked with a heavy key, and passed between rows of wooden
stalls in each of which a set of rat-gnawed bones lay on foul straw,
gyves about one ankle."
The ancients really did handle excess kids much like this. Except
they would be "exposed", ie left somewhere in the wilderness rather than
in a special room. The fond hope was that someone would adopt an exposed
child, and indeed that sometimes happened if by adopt you mean "enslave",
but of course they usually perished.
One of the Cynthia stories -- the only one MZB didn't buy,
apparently because she considered it too grim. It was common
practice in Hellenistic times (and probably other times too, but
I was researching Hellenistic practices 'cause that's when the
Cynthia stories were set), but it was usually daughters that were
exposed; sons were generally kept. There was a saying, "Even a
rich man will expose a daughter."

Except in Alexandria, where the Ptolemy's agents would gather up
exposed children and sell them. It was a different Cynthia story
in which a slave says, "It is better to be alive and a slave than
dead and wrapped in silk," and Cynthia responds by quoting
Akhilleus from the _Odyssey_: "Better to be day-laborer to a poor
peasant than king over all the dead who perish."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-16 14:14:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/as-dreamers
This is my favorite Brunner - is there anything similar in his body of work?
I'm even struggling to recall other fantasy works by him.
Tony
I had forgotten any of Brunner's that I had read and am enjoying your
recent Smith and Trowbridge recommendation so much that I read this and
agree more with James' comment that it is a fantasy genre now out of
fashion as it seemed very stilted with many archaic language choices
such as 'descries' and somewhat meandering. I read the well printed,
well bound mobi version with four novelettes and grinned with the
"Her family had in the past been counted among the most lascivious of Ys
[sic Ys is a city], and excessive indulgence by its womenfolk in the
pleasures of the bed had often threatened to overpopulate the resources
of their not inconsiderable estates. Accordingly there was a cellar
where surplus children had for generations been discreetly disposed of,
not by crude and brutal means but by consigning the problem of their
nourishment to the fates. She entered this cellar by a bronze door,
which she locked with a heavy key, and passed between rows of wooden
stalls in each of which a set of rat-gnawed bones lay on foul straw,
gyves about one ankle."
As well as 'gyves' there were more words to look up including one which
even Dorothy might not know. pollywog?
Pollywog? It means a tadpole, a juvenile frog that lives in the
water till it's grown land-adapted accessories such as legs and
lungs. I knew that word from childhood, before I learned
"tadpole."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
J. Clarke
2019-08-16 18:05:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by James Nicoll
The Traveler in Black by John Brunner
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/as-dreamers
This is my favorite Brunner - is there anything similar in his body of work?
I'm even struggling to recall other fantasy works by him.
Tony
I had forgotten any of Brunner's that I had read and am enjoying your
recent Smith and Trowbridge recommendation so much that I read this and
agree more with James' comment that it is a fantasy genre now out of
fashion as it seemed very stilted with many archaic language choices
such as 'descries' and somewhat meandering. I read the well printed,
well bound mobi version with four novelettes and grinned with the
"Her family had in the past been counted among the most lascivious of Ys
[sic Ys is a city], and excessive indulgence by its womenfolk in the
pleasures of the bed had often threatened to overpopulate the resources
of their not inconsiderable estates. Accordingly there was a cellar
where surplus children had for generations been discreetly disposed of,
not by crude and brutal means but by consigning the problem of their
nourishment to the fates. She entered this cellar by a bronze door,
which she locked with a heavy key, and passed between rows of wooden
stalls in each of which a set of rat-gnawed bones lay on foul straw,
gyves about one ankle."
As well as 'gyves' there were more words to look up including one which
even Dorothy might not know. pollywog?
Pollywog? It means a tadpole, a juvenile frog that lives in the
water till it's grown land-adapted accessories such as legs and
lungs. I knew that word from childhood, before I learned
"tadpole."
Just an aside, but it has a naval meaning that is related to its
biological one. During a crossing-the-line ceremony (the "line" being
the Equator) the "pollywogs" among the crew (those who have never
crossed the line) are elevated to "shellbacks" after undergoing some
bizarre and distasteful ritual, the details of which again depend on
the ship and the crew.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-08-16 18:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Pollywog? It means a tadpole, a juvenile frog that lives in the
water till it's grown land-adapted accessories such as legs and
lungs. I knew that word from childhood, before I learned
"tadpole."
Just an aside, but it has a naval meaning that is related to its
biological one. During a crossing-the-line ceremony (the "line" being
the Equator) the "pollywogs" among the crew (those who have never
crossed the line) are elevated to "shellbacks" after undergoing some
bizarre and distasteful ritual, the details of which again depend on
the ship and the crew.
Hmm, that would make more sense if pollywogs turned into turtles.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
J. Clarke
2019-08-16 18:56:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Pollywog? It means a tadpole, a juvenile frog that lives in the
water till it's grown land-adapted accessories such as legs and
lungs. I knew that word from childhood, before I learned
"tadpole."
Just an aside, but it has a naval meaning that is related to its
biological one. During a crossing-the-line ceremony (the "line" being
the Equator) the "pollywogs" among the crew (those who have never
crossed the line) are elevated to "shellbacks" after undergoing some
bizarre and distasteful ritual, the details of which again depend on
the ship and the crew.
Hmm, that would make more sense if pollywogs turned into turtles.
There's a right biology, a wrong biology, and a Navy biology . . .
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-08-16 19:07:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Pollywog? It means a tadpole, a juvenile frog that lives in the
water till it's grown land-adapted accessories such as legs and
lungs. I knew that word from childhood, before I learned
"tadpole."
Just an aside, but it has a naval meaning that is related to its
biological one. During a crossing-the-line ceremony (the "line" being
the Equator) the "pollywogs" among the crew (those who have never
crossed the line) are elevated to "shellbacks" after undergoing some
bizarre and distasteful ritual, the details of which again depend on
the ship and the crew.
Hmm, that would make more sense if pollywogs turned into turtles.
There's a right biology, a wrong biology, and a Navy biology . . .
:-) Heh. True for many institutions..
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
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