Discussion:
How the world has changed
(too old to reply)
J. Clarke
2018-10-04 23:35:14 UTC
Permalink
Ordered something from a web site last week. Got the tracking just
now--the order has just left Hanoi, Viet Nam.

I don't think that anybody in the '60s would have imagined such a
thing.
Lynn McGuire
2018-10-05 23:04:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Ordered something from a web site last week. Got the tracking just
now--the order has just left Hanoi, Viet Nam.
I don't think that anybody in the '60s would have imagined such a
thing.
Are you talking about the communication speed ? Or the fact that the
USA was in a police action with North Vietnam from 1963 to 1975 ?

Lynn
J. Clarke
2018-10-05 23:59:31 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 18:04:44 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
Ordered something from a web site last week. Got the tracking just
now--the order has just left Hanoi, Viet Nam.
I don't think that anybody in the '60s would have imagined such a
thing.
Are you talking about the communication speed ? Or the fact that the
USA was in a police action with North Vietnam from 1963 to 1975 ?
The fact that the US was in a war (it wasn't any damned "police
action", only idiots claim that) with North Vietnam and the people in
Hanoi ended up winning.
David Johnston
2018-10-06 00:04:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 18:04:44 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
Ordered something from a web site last week. Got the tracking just
now--the order has just left Hanoi, Viet Nam.
I don't think that anybody in the '60s would have imagined such a
thing.
Are you talking about the communication speed ? Or the fact that the
USA was in a police action with North Vietnam from 1963 to 1975 ?
The fact that the US was in a war (it wasn't any damned "police
action", only idiots claim that) with North Vietnam and the people in
Hanoi ended up winning.
Oh I think they could have easily imagined that. What would have
surprised them perhaps is how little it mattered and the failure of the
dominos to fall.
Lynn McGuire
2018-10-06 00:21:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 18:04:44 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
Ordered something from a web site last week. Got the tracking just
now--the order has just left Hanoi, Viet Nam.
I don't think that anybody in the '60s would have imagined such a
thing.
Are you talking about the communication speed ? Or the fact that the
USA was in a police action with North Vietnam from 1963 to 1975 ?
The fact that the US was in a war (it wasn't any damned "police
action", only idiots claim that) with North Vietnam and the people in
Hanoi ended up winning.
Wasn't the Vietnam war legally called a "police action" ? Of course,
calling that a police action with almost two million serving in that war
which peaked at 650,000 service men IIRC is a joke.

Hanoi won because the French and the USA left. The same might happen in
the Koreas if we, the USA, ever leave South Korea without resolving the
North Korea problem.

Lynn
David Johnston
2018-10-06 01:22:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 18:04:44 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Ordered something from a web site last week.  Got the tracking just
now--the order has just left Hanoi, Viet Nam.
I don't think that anybody in the '60s would have imagined such a
thing.
Are you talking about the communication speed ?  Or the fact that the
USA was in a police action with North Vietnam from 1963 to 1975 ?
The fact that the US was in a war (it wasn't any damned "police
action", only idiots claim that) with North Vietnam and the people in
Hanoi ended up winning.
Wasn't the Vietnam war legally called a "police action" ?  Of course,
calling that a police action with almost two million serving in that war
which peaked at 650,000 service men IIRC is a joke.
Hanoi won because the French and the USA left.  The same might happen in
the Koreas if we, the USA, ever leave South Korea without resolving the
North Korea problem.
Lynn
It's not terribly likely since North Korea wouldn't have the same kind
of backing North Vietnam had and South Korea is hugely stronger than
South Vietnam was.
J. Clarke
2018-10-06 02:59:20 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 19:21:16 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 18:04:44 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
Ordered something from a web site last week. Got the tracking just
now--the order has just left Hanoi, Viet Nam.
I don't think that anybody in the '60s would have imagined such a
thing.
Are you talking about the communication speed ? Or the fact that the
USA was in a police action with North Vietnam from 1963 to 1975 ?
The fact that the US was in a war (it wasn't any damned "police
action", only idiots claim that) with North Vietnam and the people in
Hanoi ended up winning.
Wasn't the Vietnam war legally called a "police action" ? Of course,
calling that a police action with almost two million serving in that war
which peaked at 650,000 service men IIRC is a joke.
Doesn't matter what it was called, anything that led the Soviet Union
to pull the entire Moscow air defense network and ship it to one of
their allies was a fucking _war_.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Hanoi won because the French and the USA left. The same might happen in
the Koreas if we, the USA, ever leave South Korea without resolving the
North Korea problem.
Hanoi won because they managed to win the hearts and minds of a
significant portion of the American people.

It's doubtful that North Korea would be nearly as successful. South
Korea has no love for Communism, a great deal to lose, and an economy
about 100 times as large as the North. Further, the North will be
running 1960s vintage Soviet equipment against 21st Century US
equipment, except for artillery, where it's 21st Century South Korean
equipment so good that NATO is buying it in quantity.
Fritz Wuehler
2018-10-08 11:31:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 18:04:44 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
Ordered something from a web site last week. Got the tracking just
now--the order has just left Hanoi, Viet Nam.
I don't think that anybody in the '60s would have imagined such a
thing.
Are you talking about the communication speed ? Or the fact that the
USA was in a police action with North Vietnam from 1963 to 1975 ?
The fact that the US was in a war (it wasn't any damned "police
action", only idiots claim that) with North Vietnam and the people in
Hanoi ended up winning.
Wasn't the Vietnam war legally called a "police action" ?
No.

And it was a war, an undeclared war. I was there, and getting shot
at and shooting made it a war to me, and many others. The
undeclared war was about a Chinese containment policy.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Of course,
calling that a police action with almost two million serving in that war
which peaked at 650,000 service men IIRC is a joke. ....
Jokes should be funny.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Hanoi won because the French and the USA left.
The USA knew that the war was unwinnable in 1965. See <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers> The South Viet Namese did NOT want to live under Communism.
Quadibloc
2018-10-06 04:03:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
The fact that the US was in a war (it wasn't any damned "police
action", only idiots claim that)
It definitely was a war, although Congress had not declared war. However, I
thought the Korean war was officially a "police action", while the military
activities of the U.S. in Vietnam, unlike those in Korea, never received the
approval of the U.N. Security Council.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2018-10-06 04:14:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
The fact that the US was in a war (it wasn't any damned "police
action", only idiots claim that)
It definitely was a war, although Congress had not declared war. However, I
thought the Korean war was officially a "police action", while the military
activities of the U.S. in Vietnam, unlike those in Korea, never received the
approval of the U.N. Security Council.
Calling either of them a "police action" was politicians lying.
Jack Bohn
2018-10-06 13:52:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
Ordered something from a web site last week. Got the tracking just
now--the order has just left Hanoi, Viet Nam.
I don't think that anybody in the '60s would have imagined such a
thing.
Are you talking about the communication speed ? Or the fact that the
USA was in a police action with North Vietnam from 1963 to 1975 ?
The fact that the US was in a war (it wasn't any damned "police
action", only idiots claim that) with North Vietnam and the people in
Hanoi ended up winning.
The '60s were 15-25 years after WW II, and the losers were in trade with the winners. See the Billy Wilder movie, "One Two Three" from 1961 shows it happening at the shorter range of that timeframe, at least for Coca-Cola. Of course, Hanoi winning didn't mean they got to occupy the US, more like putting a curtain of iron between the two, but "one Two Three" suggests even East Germany found a way to "acquire" Coke -- and to return the empties.
--
-Jack

-J
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-10-06 02:48:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
Ordered something from a web site last week. Got the tracking just
now--the order has just left Hanoi, Viet Nam.
I don't think that anybody in the '60s would have imagined such a
thing.
Are you talking about the communication speed ? Or the fact that the
USA was in a police action with North Vietnam from 1963 to 1975 ?
Lynn
In the 60s I think plenty of people imagined we might win that police action.
And if so, imagining ordering from Hanoi at some point in the future
wouldn't be any more than had happened with, say, Tokyo.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
s***@yahoo.com
2018-10-07 02:30:53 UTC
Permalink
The purpose of the "police action" label, according to my prof. was to limit
US involvement. If the populace had gotten into it, it could have been overdone, damaging the economy and creating international complications.

Having served in the tail end of the vietnam-era us army, I get a warm feeling of satisfaction that it's over when I see products from Vietnam.

The best shaped pith helmet for steam punk that I've seen is Vietnamese.

Nils K. Hammer
J. Clarke
2018-10-07 03:22:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
The purpose of the "police action" label, according to my prof. was to limit
US involvement. If the populace had gotten into it, it could have been overdone, damaging the economy and creating international complications.
??? I'm pretty sure "the populace" "got into it".
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Having served in the tail end of the vietnam-era us army, I get a warm feeling of satisfaction that it's over when I see products from Vietnam.
The best shaped pith helmet for steam punk that I've seen is Vietnamese.
Nils K. Hammer
m***@sky.com
2018-10-07 04:36:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
The purpose of the "police action" label, according to my prof. was to limit
US involvement. If the populace had gotten into it, it could have been overdone, damaging the economy and creating international complications.
Having served in the tail end of the vietnam-era us army, I get a warm feeling of satisfaction that it's over when I see products from Vietnam.
The best shaped pith helmet for steam punk that I've seen is Vietnamese.
Nils K. Hammer
What is popularly called the Falklands War wasn't a war either, although it involved the sinking of an Argentine Cruiser, the dispatch of a British Aircraft carrier and associated task force, an amphibious landing, pitched battles, and a 6,600 nautical mile bombing raid. As stated in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War "Neither state officially declared war, although both governments declared the Islands a war zone." and I remember that at the end there were (groundless) worries that the award of richly deserved medals would be hampered by it not being an official war. My understanding is that there would have been legal and diplomatic disadvantages to declaring war, so it officially remained the Falklands crisis.
l***@usa.com
2018-10-08 17:32:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@sky.com
, and a 6,600 nautical mile bombing raid.
there was a very interesting book about the bombing, and it listed all the huge number of people and programs for one plane to go and bomb something. Maybe sci-fi writers ought to use it as a reference.

Nils K. Hammer
m***@sky.com
2018-10-08 18:19:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@usa.com
Post by m***@sky.com
, and a 6,600 nautical mile bombing raid.
there was a very interesting book about the bombing, and it listed all the huge number of people and programs for one plane to go and bomb something. Maybe sci-fi writers ought to use it as a reference.
Nils K. Hammer
I suspect you mean "Vulcan 607" by Rowland White. At the time the utility of the bombing was questioned. The book of course argues that it was useful. Reading it, I was struck by the fact that many people, including some within the RAF aware of the real difficulty of the task, would have said that this raid was impossible until it was actually carried out. Finding out that they had been attacked with a capability their intelligence almost certainly stated that the British did not have must have been a most unsettling experience for the Argentinians.
Peter Trei
2018-10-08 20:11:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by l***@usa.com
Post by m***@sky.com
, and a 6,600 nautical mile bombing raid.
there was a very interesting book about the bombing, and it listed all the huge number of people and programs for one plane to go and bomb something. Maybe sci-fi writers ought to use it as a reference.
Nils K. Hammer
I suspect you mean "Vulcan 607" by Rowland White. At the time the utility
of the bombing was questioned. The book of course argues that it was useful.
Reading it, I was struck by the fact that many people, including some within
the RAF aware of the real difficulty of the task, would have said that this
raid was impossible until it was actually carried out. Finding out that
they had been attacked with a capability their intelligence almost
certainly stated that the British did not have must have been a most
unsettling experience for the Argentinians.
I vaguely remember that. Reminds me of the Doolittle Raids on Tokyo.

pt
Robert Carnegie
2018-10-08 21:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@usa.com
Post by m***@sky.com
, and a 6,600 nautical mile bombing raid.
there was a very interesting book about the bombing, and it listed all the huge number of people and programs for one plane to go and bomb something. Maybe sci-fi writers ought to use it as a reference.
Nils K. Hammer
Well, slightly in that vein, Marvel Comics'
"Ultimate Universe", an alternate, somewhat more
"realistic" version of superheroes, had someone
mention at one point that their version of "Iron Man"
had a ground crew of about 100 - whereas regular
comics Iron Man just needs to plug in and recharge
from household electricity - well, in the 1970s
or so. Must be where Elon Musk got the idea...
Kevrob
2018-10-09 02:53:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by l***@usa.com
Post by m***@sky.com
, and a 6,600 nautical mile bombing raid.
there was a very interesting book about the bombing, and it listed all the huge number of people and programs for one plane to go and bomb something. Maybe sci-fi writers ought to use it as a reference.
Nils K. Hammer
Well, slightly in that vein, Marvel Comics'
"Ultimate Universe", an alternate, somewhat more
"realistic" version of superheroes, had someone
mention at one point that their version of "Iron Man"
had a ground crew of about 100 - whereas regular
comics Iron Man just needs to plug in and recharge
from household electricity - well, in the 1970s
or so. Must be where Elon Musk got the idea...
Close. In the 60s, Stark had to recharge his chestplate,
including the doodad that kept shrapnel from lodging
deeper in his heart and killing him, from wall sockets
on occasion. In the 1970s, the armor became solar powered,
with a thermocouple backup power source.

http://www.ironmanarmory.com/ClassicRedandGoldArmor.html

Tony's buddy Elon really should license that tech!

https://www.inverse.com/article/39042-marvel-mcu-elon-musk-iron-man-2-spacex-cameo-reddit

Kevin R
Robert Carnegie
2018-10-09 09:05:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by l***@usa.com
Post by m***@sky.com
, and a 6,600 nautical mile bombing raid.
there was a very interesting book about the bombing, and it listed all the huge number of people and programs for one plane to go and bomb something. Maybe sci-fi writers ought to use it as a reference.
Nils K. Hammer
Well, slightly in that vein, Marvel Comics'
"Ultimate Universe", an alternate, somewhat more
"realistic" version of superheroes, had someone
mention at one point that their version of "Iron Man"
had a ground crew of about 100 - whereas regular
comics Iron Man just needs to plug in and recharge
from household electricity - well, in the 1970s
or so. Must be where Elon Musk got the idea...
Close. In the 60s, Stark had to recharge his chestplate,
including the doodad that kept shrapnel from lodging
deeper in his heart and killing him, from wall sockets
on occasion. In the 1970s, the armor became solar powered,
with a thermocouple backup power source.
http://www.ironmanarmory.com/ClassicRedandGoldArmor.html
But "with a wall outlet attachment" nevertheless!

I'm having trouble with dating this information:
of course "now" Iron Man isn't a 1960s superhero
any more, so most of this "happened" but on a
compressed time scale. "Model V Mark II" is the
one with solar power... and a faceplate with a nose;
that was replaced in 1976? according to
<http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Iron_Man_Vol_1_85>
but /they/ identify that replacement suit as
<http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Iron_Man_Armor_Model_4>

It's not like he was selling them though...
he doesn't need consistent numbering or product
recalls.
Post by Kevrob
Tony's buddy Elon really should license that tech!
https://www.inverse.com/article/39042-marvel-mcu-elon-musk-iron-man-2-spacex-cameo-reddit
Kevin R
Peter Trei
2018-10-09 12:19:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by l***@usa.com
Post by m***@sky.com
, and a 6,600 nautical mile bombing raid.
there was a very interesting book about the bombing, and it listed all the huge number of people and programs for one plane to go and bomb something. Maybe sci-fi writers ought to use it as a reference.
Nils K. Hammer
Well, slightly in that vein, Marvel Comics'
"Ultimate Universe", an alternate, somewhat more
"realistic" version of superheroes, had someone
mention at one point that their version of "Iron Man"
had a ground crew of about 100 - whereas regular
comics Iron Man just needs to plug in and recharge
from household electricity - well, in the 1970s
or so. Must be where Elon Musk got the idea...
Close. In the 60s, Stark had to recharge his chestplate,
including the doodad that kept shrapnel from lodging
deeper in his heart and killing him, from wall sockets
on occasion. In the 1970s, the armor became solar powered,
with a thermocouple backup power source.
http://www.ironmanarmory.com/ClassicRedandGoldArmor.html
But "with a wall outlet attachment" nevertheless!
I"m not really a comics guy, but reading this has me
picturing him searching desperately for a USB cord....

pt
Kevrob
2018-10-09 16:53:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by l***@usa.com
Post by m***@sky.com
, and a 6,600 nautical mile bombing raid.
there was a very interesting book about the bombing, and it listed all the huge number of people and programs for one plane to go and bomb something. Maybe sci-fi writers ought to use it as a reference.
Nils K. Hammer
Well, slightly in that vein, Marvel Comics'
"Ultimate Universe", an alternate, somewhat more
"realistic" version of superheroes, had someone
mention at one point that their version of "Iron Man"
had a ground crew of about 100 - whereas regular
comics Iron Man just needs to plug in and recharge
from household electricity - well, in the 1970s
or so. Must be where Elon Musk got the idea...
Close. In the 60s, Stark had to recharge his chestplate,
including the doodad that kept shrapnel from lodging
deeper in his heart and killing him, from wall sockets
on occasion. In the 1970s, the armor became solar powered,
with a thermocouple backup power source.
http://www.ironmanarmory.com/ClassicRedandGoldArmor.html
But "with a wall outlet attachment" nevertheless!
I began buying Marvels ~ 1971/`72, after having spent my earlier
years being a DC only sort. I was familiar enough with the
Marvel heroes from borrowing comics from friends, ones read
at the barber shop, and the various cartoon shows on TV.
Post by Robert Carnegie
of course "now" Iron Man isn't a 1960s superhero
any more, so most of this "happened" but on a
compressed time scale. "Model V Mark II" is the
one with solar power... and a faceplate with a nose;
that was replaced in 1976?
Ol' Shellhead switches to solar by issue #52, cover date Nov 1972.

https://www.comics.org/issue/25633/cover/4/

He could have used the thermocouple when he fought Firebrand,
a couple of issues earlier.

The last "wall outlet" version was the previous one:

http://www.ironmanarmory.com/FlexiArmor.html

Introduced in TALES OF SUSPENSE #85, Jan 1967 cover date

https://www.comics.org/issue/20687/cover/4/
Post by Robert Carnegie
according to
<http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Iron_Man_Vol_1_85>
but /they/ identify that replacement suit as
<http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Iron_Man_Armor_Model_4>
It's not like he was selling them though...
he doesn't need consistent numbering or product
recalls.
Stark does wind up selling some of his tech to S.H.I.E.L.D. and the
other parts of the Federal government: the Mandroids, for instance,
who feature in the AVENGERS issues regarding the Kree-Skrull war.

The Iron Man suits are in-house "skunk works" projects, with SI
selling spin-offs.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Kevrob
Tony's buddy Elon really should license that tech!
https://www.inverse.com/article/39042-marvel-mcu-elon-musk-iron-man-2-spacex-cameo-reddit
Kevin R
Kevrob
2018-10-09 18:33:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Close. In the 60s, Stark had to recharge his chestplate,
including the doodad that kept shrapnel from lodging
deeper in his heart and killing him, from wall sockets
on occasion. In the 1970s, the armor became solar powered,
with a thermocouple backup power source.
http://www.ironmanarmory.com/ClassicRedandGoldArmor.html
Additional:

When I read about "solar powered armor" in 1971, you'd be lucky
to power a 60w lightbulb with a solar panel. The first pocket
calculator using solar to recharge batteries was 1976, solar
only 1978.

http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/calculator_time-line.html

A 23-year-old Mike Friedrich* was maybe doing a little propaganda
for movement away from fossil-fuel- or nuclear-generated power.
The oil price was just about to spike, with the oil shocks
of 1973 and 1979 still on the horizon.

Nowadays, some people can recharge, or at least "top off," an electric vehicle from their home solar array, but for Marvel-Earth's most sophisticated, home-grown version of battle armor, a more ambitious
power source would be needed, hence the films' "arc reactor" tech, and
the comics' "Repulsor Tech" power modules.

Charging from a solar station at one's daytime job would make more
sense, unless one works the night shift.

* ObFandom: Mike F co-owned Wonder Con before selling it to Comicon
Intl [aka the San Diego ComicCon.]


Kevin R

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