Discussion:
Space Colonies Where the Settlers are Kept Ignorant
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Robert Woodward
2021-05-07 04:56:22 UTC
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I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.

_The Steerswoman_ by Rosemary Kirstein is one example. The background
for the _Pillars of Reality_ series by Jack Campbell (John G. Hemry) is
another (in this case, the crew violated their mission orders). David
Weber's _Safehold_ series is a variant, where the passengers were in
suspended animation (but rather drastic editing of their memories took
place, also in violation of mission orders). I don't believe that _A
Gift from Earth_ by Larry Niven qualifies (the crew ruled with a heavy
hand, but I don't remember suppression of basic knowledge appearing in
the novel).

What other titles can people list?
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Leif Roar Moldskred
2021-05-07 05:51:33 UTC
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Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
[SNIP]
What other titles can people list?
If I remember correctly, such a custom forms part of the backdrop for
Pratchett's "Strata", although the story doesn't take place on a planet
where this has been done.
--
Leif Roar Moldskred
Think bigger
Harold Hill
2021-05-07 12:50:48 UTC
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Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
_The Steerswoman_ by Rosemary Kirstein is one example. The background
for the _Pillars of Reality_ series by Jack Campbell (John G. Hemry) is
another (in this case, the crew violated their mission orders). David
Weber's _Safehold_ series is a variant, where the passengers were in
suspended animation (but rather drastic editing of their memories took
place, also in violation of mission orders). I don't believe that _A
Gift from Earth_ by Larry Niven qualifies (the crew ruled with a heavy
hand, but I don't remember suppression of basic knowledge appearing in
the novel).
What other titles can people list?
Roger Zelazny's _Lord of Light_?
--
-Harold Hill
Stephen Harker
2021-05-07 21:12:23 UTC
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Post by Harold Hill
Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
_The Steerswoman_ by Rosemary Kirstein is one example. The background
for the _Pillars of Reality_ series by Jack Campbell (John G. Hemry) is
another (in this case, the crew violated their mission orders). David
Weber's _Safehold_ series is a variant, where the passengers were in
suspended animation (but rather drastic editing of their memories took
place, also in violation of mission orders). I don't believe that _A
Gift from Earth_ by Larry Niven qualifies (the crew ruled with a heavy
hand, but I don't remember suppression of basic knowledge appearing in
the novel).
What other titles can people list?
Roger Zelazny's _Lord of Light_?
Harry Harrison's _Wheelworld_
--
Stephen Harker ***@netspace.net.au
was: http://sjharker.customer.netspace.net.au/
now: http://members.iinet.net.au/~***@netspace.net.au/
or: http://members.iinet.net.au/~sjharker_nbn/
Lynn McGuire
2021-05-07 21:33:53 UTC
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Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
_The Steerswoman_ by Rosemary Kirstein is one example. The background
for the _Pillars of Reality_ series by Jack Campbell (John G. Hemry) is
another (in this case, the crew violated their mission orders). David
Weber's _Safehold_ series is a variant, where the passengers were in
suspended animation (but rather drastic editing of their memories took
place, also in violation of mission orders). I don't believe that _A
Gift from Earth_ by Larry Niven qualifies (the crew ruled with a heavy
hand, but I don't remember suppression of basic knowledge appearing in
the novel).
What other titles can people list?
David Weber's "Mutineer's Moon" is a variant on this as only the main
ship and the mutineers, and one mutineer's ship turned loyalists, know
after 50,000 years that the moon is a space ship.
https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/

In Robert Heinlein's "Orphans Of The Sky", nobody knows that they are on
a generation ship until a young man ventures into the control room and
figures out that they are headed to a sun. The crew are all dead
apparently.
https://www.amazon.com/Orphans-Sky-Robert-Heinlein/dp/0671318454/

I've got a couple of more on the edge of my mind. James probably knows
a dozen at least.

There is a Star Trek episode with this also but the crew is a single
computer.

Lynn
Lynn McGuire
2021-05-07 22:51:46 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
_The Steerswoman_ by Rosemary Kirstein is one example. The background
for the _Pillars of Reality_ series by Jack Campbell (John G. Hemry) is
another (in this case, the crew violated their mission orders). David
Weber's _Safehold_ series is a variant, where the passengers were in
suspended animation (but rather drastic editing of their memories took
place, also in violation of mission orders). I don't believe that _A
Gift from Earth_ by Larry Niven qualifies (the crew ruled with a heavy
hand, but I don't remember suppression of basic knowledge appearing in
the novel).
What other titles can people list?
David Weber's "Mutineer's Moon" is a variant on this as only the main
ship and the mutineers, and one mutineer's ship turned loyalists, know
after 50,000 years that the moon is a space ship.
    https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/
In Robert Heinlein's "Orphans Of The Sky", nobody knows that they are on
a generation ship until a young man ventures into the control room and
figures out that they are headed to a sun.  The crew are all dead
apparently.
   https://www.amazon.com/Orphans-Sky-Robert-Heinlein/dp/0671318454/
I've got a couple of more on the edge of my mind.  James probably knows
a dozen at least.
There is a Star Trek episode with this also but the crew is a single
computer.
Lynn
I forgot to mention that in "Mutineer's Moon", the Earth is an
involuntary colony. The colonization happened when the space ship had a
partial mutiny and the 250,000 person crew was forced to leave the ship
in lifeboats and sublight ships to Earth. The space ship was on sentry
duty against an invading force.

Lynn
Hamish Laws
2021-05-08 10:43:33 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
In Robert Heinlein's "Orphans Of The Sky", nobody knows that they are on
a generation ship until a young man ventures into the control room and
figures out that they are headed to a sun. The crew are all dead
apparently.
https://www.amazon.com/Orphans-Sky-Robert-Heinlein/dp/0671318454/
As I recall things the crew largely died in a mutiny centuries before and the survivors didn't have the technical knowledge to keep things running properly

Time Enough For Love said that the ship was found in the future and the trajectory traced back to find a populated planet from the main characters in Orphans of the Sky
Paul S Person
2021-05-08 16:30:46 UTC
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On Sat, 8 May 2021 03:43:33 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
Post by Hamish Laws
Post by Lynn McGuire
In Robert Heinlein's "Orphans Of The Sky", nobody knows that they are on
a generation ship until a young man ventures into the control room and
figures out that they are headed to a sun. The crew are all dead
apparently.
https://www.amazon.com/Orphans-Sky-Robert-Heinlein/dp/0671318454/
As I recall things the crew largely died in a mutiny centuries before and the survivors didn't have the technical knowledge to keep things running properly
But they still have and read the tech manuals ... as sacred texts,
which they interpret symbolically rather than literally.
Post by Hamish Laws
Time Enough For Love said that the ship was found in the future and the trajectory traced back to find a populated planet from the main characters in Orphans of the Sky
Who turned out to be very very nasty: the only way to study them
without being eaten was to be a metal simulacrum that only appeared to
be human. Or something like that.

There was some nonsense about them being extremely intelligent
because, of course, all the /smart/ people migrated from Earth,
leaving only the dummies behind.

And bred true for intelligence. Heinlein as elitist snob.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Hamish Laws
2021-05-09 03:58:37 UTC
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Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 8 May 2021 03:43:33 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
Post by Hamish Laws
Post by Lynn McGuire
In Robert Heinlein's "Orphans Of The Sky", nobody knows that they are on
a generation ship until a young man ventures into the control room and
figures out that they are headed to a sun. The crew are all dead
apparently.
https://www.amazon.com/Orphans-Sky-Robert-Heinlein/dp/0671318454/
As I recall things the crew largely died in a mutiny centuries before and the survivors didn't have the technical knowledge to keep things running properly
But they still have and read the tech manuals ... as sacred texts,
which they interpret symbolically rather than literally.
Post by Hamish Laws
Time Enough For Love said that the ship was found in the future and the trajectory traced back to find a populated planet from the main characters in Orphans of the Sky
Who turned out to be very very nasty: the only way to study them
without being eaten was to be a metal simulacrum that only appeared to
be human. Or something like that.
There was some nonsense about them being extremely intelligent
because, of course, all the /smart/ people migrated from Earth,
leaving only the dummies behind.
And bred true for intelligence. Heinlein as elitist snob.
I haven't read it in a long time but I think it was much more the idea that the environment was unfriendly enough that dumb people died.
Paul S Person
2021-05-10 16:48:40 UTC
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On Sat, 8 May 2021 20:58:37 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
Post by Hamish Laws
Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 8 May 2021 03:43:33 -0700 (PDT), Hamish Laws
Post by Hamish Laws
Post by Lynn McGuire
In Robert Heinlein's "Orphans Of The Sky", nobody knows that they are on
a generation ship until a young man ventures into the control room and
figures out that they are headed to a sun. The crew are all dead
apparently.
https://www.amazon.com/Orphans-Sky-Robert-Heinlein/dp/0671318454/
As I recall things the crew largely died in a mutiny centuries before and the survivors didn't have the technical knowledge to keep things running properly
But they still have and read the tech manuals ... as sacred texts,
which they interpret symbolically rather than literally.
Post by Hamish Laws
Time Enough For Love said that the ship was found in the future and the trajectory traced back to find a populated planet from the main characters in Orphans of the Sky
Who turned out to be very very nasty: the only way to study them
without being eaten was to be a metal simulacrum that only appeared to
be human. Or something like that.
There was some nonsense about them being extremely intelligent
because, of course, all the /smart/ people migrated from Earth,
leaving only the dummies behind.
And bred true for intelligence. Heinlein as elitist snob.
I haven't read it in a long time but I think it was much more the idea that the environment was unfriendly enough that dumb people died.
The actual statement was that colonists were much much more
intelligent that stay-at-homers.

And that the Earth was considerably dumbed-down as a result.

No explicit mention of natural selection keeping the colonists very
very smart was made.

All of this is IIRC, of course.

Oh, and you may well be correct that, if such a situation /should/
arise, the colonists might be selected for intelligence by the hostile
environment. Their social/cultural level wasn't all that high, after
all. (At least one of the women hadn't been given a name by her man
yet, for example. Note that I said "intelligent"; I didn't say
"civilized". Apparently, their culture would make the Taliban look
like flaming liberals.)
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Andrew Love
2021-05-13 01:47:56 UTC
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I always thought it was funny that Heinlein, who died in the nation where
he was born, was convinced emigrants were superior people, whereas Nevil
Shute, who emigrated to Australia, seemed to propose in In the Wet that
the colonies were so rich in resources any fool could prosper and many
did.
Has there been the great SF FILTH novel, in which some no hoper Terran
leaves Earth in favour of a less competitive world?
--
Sheckley's "The Minimum Man"?
Paul S Person
2021-05-13 15:51:01 UTC
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Post by Paul S Person
There was some nonsense about them being extremely intelligent
because, of course, all the /smart/ people migrated from Earth,
leaving only the dummies behind.
And bred true for intelligence. Heinlein as elitist snob.
I always thought it was funny that Heinlein, who died in the nation where
he was born, was convinced emigrants were superior people, whereas Nevil
Shute, who emigrated to Australia, seemed to propose in In the Wet that
the colonies were so rich in resources any fool could prosper and many
did.
I have, however, heard it suggested in an academic setting that, after
the '48, those who moved to America were the ones who didn't like the
European class system -- and those who stayed were those who had no
problems with it, even though, as peasants, they were on the bottom
rung.

But I'm not sure how well that would stand up to a reality check.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Kevrob
2021-05-14 04:13:50 UTC
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Post by Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
There was some nonsense about them being extremely intelligent
because, of course, all the /smart/ people migrated from Earth,
leaving only the dummies behind.
And bred true for intelligence. Heinlein as elitist snob.
I always thought it was funny that Heinlein, who died in the nation where
he was born, was convinced emigrants were superior people, whereas Nevil
Shute, who emigrated to Australia, seemed to propose in In the Wet that
the colonies were so rich in resources any fool could prosper and many
did.
I have, however, heard it suggested in an academic setting that, after
the '48, those who moved to America were the ones who didn't like the
European class system -- and those who stayed were those who had no
problems with it, even though, as peasants, they were on the bottom
rung.
But I'm not sure how well that would stand up to a reality check.
--
I lived in Milwaukee for a great chunk of my adult life,. The
story of the "Forty-Eighters" was well-known out there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty-Eighters

Many lit out for the Americas, Britain and anywhere that would
take them. Carl Schurz and Thomas Meagher were Union generals
in the War Between the States. Meagher had been transported
to Australia after a reprieve from execution, but escaped to New York.
Forty-eighters arrived in the States at ports as far south as Galveston, TX.
--
Kevin R
Paul S Person
2021-05-14 16:14:34 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
There was some nonsense about them being extremely intelligent
because, of course, all the /smart/ people migrated from Earth,
leaving only the dummies behind.
And bred true for intelligence. Heinlein as elitist snob.
I always thought it was funny that Heinlein, who died in the nation where
he was born, was convinced emigrants were superior people, whereas Nevil
Shute, who emigrated to Australia, seemed to propose in In the Wet that
the colonies were so rich in resources any fool could prosper and many
did.
I have, however, heard it suggested in an academic setting that, after
the '48, those who moved to America were the ones who didn't like the
European class system -- and those who stayed were those who had no
problems with it, even though, as peasants, they were on the bottom
rung.
But I'm not sure how well that would stand up to a reality check.
--
I lived in Milwaukee for a great chunk of my adult life,. The
story of the "Forty-Eighters" was well-known out there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty-Eighters
Many lit out for the Americas, Britain and anywhere that would
take them. Carl Schurz and Thomas Meagher were Union generals
in the War Between the States. Meagher had been transported
to Australia after a reprieve from execution, but escaped to New York.
Forty-eighters arrived in the States at ports as far south as Galveston, TX.
At some point, I came to think that /The Emigrants/ and sequels and
films were about 48ers from Sweden, but when I watched the movies
again I got the impression they came a bit earlier. Or maybe a bit
later.

My maternal grandfather's four grandparents, OTOH, were brought to
this country from Germany as small children, and the timing there,
IIRC, works.

After the Wall came down, my Uncle took a trip and looked up some very
distant cousins in the former East Germany.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Michael F. Stemper
2021-05-14 17:17:37 UTC
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Post by Paul S Person
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
I have, however, heard it suggested in an academic setting that, after
the '48, those who moved to America were the ones who didn't like the
European class system -- and those who stayed were those who had no
problems with it, even though, as peasants, they were on the bottom
rung.
But I'm not sure how well that would stand up to a reality check.
--
I lived in Milwaukee for a great chunk of my adult life,. The
story of the "Forty-Eighters" was well-known out there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty-Eighters
Many lit out for the Americas, Britain and anywhere that would
take them. Carl Schurz and Thomas Meagher were Union generals
in the War Between the States. Meagher had been transported
to Australia after a reprieve from execution, but escaped to New York.
Forty-eighters arrived in the States at ports as far south as Galveston, TX.
At some point, I came to think that /The Emigrants/ and sequels and
films were about 48ers from Sweden, but when I watched the movies
again I got the impression they came a bit earlier. Or maybe a bit
later.
The first sentence of my copy of _The Emigrants_ reads:

This is the story of a group of people who in 1850 left their homes
in Ljuder Parish, in the province of Småland, Sweden, and emigrated
to North America.

So your third impression is correct.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Always use apostrophe's and "quotation marks" properly.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-14 18:04:01 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
There was some nonsense about them being extremely intelligent
because, of course, all the /smart/ people migrated from Earth,
leaving only the dummies behind.
And bred true for intelligence. Heinlein as elitist snob.
I always thought it was funny that Heinlein, who died in the nation where
he was born, was convinced emigrants were superior people, whereas Nevil
Shute, who emigrated to Australia, seemed to propose in In the Wet that
the colonies were so rich in resources any fool could prosper and many
did.
I have, however, heard it suggested in an academic setting that, after
the '48, those who moved to America were the ones who didn't like the
European class system -- and those who stayed were those who had no
problems with it, even though, as peasants, they were on the bottom
rung.
But I'm not sure how well that would stand up to a reality check.
--
I lived in Milwaukee for a great chunk of my adult life,. The
story of the "Forty-Eighters" was well-known out there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty-Eighters
Oh, *eighteen*-forty-eight. That makes more sense. Mind, much
of Europe was still in bad shape in 1948, but perhaps there was
not as much of a motive (or ability) to emigrate.

I've lived in California for most of my life, and never heard the
term before. Forty-niners, now, we had lots of those.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dimensional Traveler
2021-05-14 19:17:10 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
There was some nonsense about them being extremely intelligent
because, of course, all the /smart/ people migrated from Earth,
leaving only the dummies behind.
And bred true for intelligence. Heinlein as elitist snob.
I always thought it was funny that Heinlein, who died in the nation where
he was born, was convinced emigrants were superior people, whereas Nevil
Shute, who emigrated to Australia, seemed to propose in In the Wet that
the colonies were so rich in resources any fool could prosper and many
did.
I have, however, heard it suggested in an academic setting that, after
the '48, those who moved to America were the ones who didn't like the
European class system -- and those who stayed were those who had no
problems with it, even though, as peasants, they were on the bottom
rung.
But I'm not sure how well that would stand up to a reality check.
--
I lived in Milwaukee for a great chunk of my adult life,. The
story of the "Forty-Eighters" was well-known out there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty-Eighters
Oh, *eighteen*-forty-eight. That makes more sense. Mind, much
of Europe was still in bad shape in 1948, but perhaps there was
not as much of a motive (or ability) to emigrate.
I've lived in California for most of my life, and never heard the
term before. Forty-niners, now, we had lots of those.
And probably a few Forty-Eighters who became Forty-Niners. ;)
--
Troll, troll, troll your post gently down the thread
Angrily, angrily, angrily, the net's a nut's scream.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-14 21:11:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
There was some nonsense about them being extremely intelligent
because, of course, all the /smart/ people migrated from Earth,
leaving only the dummies behind.
And bred true for intelligence. Heinlein as elitist snob.
I always thought it was funny that Heinlein, who died in the nation where
he was born, was convinced emigrants were superior people, whereas Nevil
Shute, who emigrated to Australia, seemed to propose in In the Wet that
the colonies were so rich in resources any fool could prosper and many
did.
I have, however, heard it suggested in an academic setting that, after
the '48, those who moved to America were the ones who didn't like the
European class system -- and those who stayed were those who had no
problems with it, even though, as peasants, they were on the bottom
rung.
But I'm not sure how well that would stand up to a reality check.
--
I lived in Milwaukee for a great chunk of my adult life,. The
story of the "Forty-Eighters" was well-known out there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty-Eighters
Oh, *eighteen*-forty-eight. That makes more sense. Mind, much
of Europe was still in bad shape in 1948, but perhaps there was
not as much of a motive (or ability) to emigrate.
I've lived in California for most of my life, and never heard the
term before. Forty-niners, now, we had lots of those.
And probably a few Forty-Eighters who became Forty-Niners. ;)
Quite possible. Now I'm envisioning a former revolutionary
heading to Sacramento with a copy of _De Re Metallica_ in his
rucksack. But not likely*, even if the former revolutionary had
been a student; the Latin in it is bizarre, partially made-up,
and not to be translated till Herbert Hoover, a former mining
engineer, and his wife Lou, a Latinist, took on the task.

_____
*But there might be a story in it, particularly if the student
had majored in metallurgy and had a lot of Latin. Anyway, he'd
be unlikely to be looking for anything but _aurum._
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dimensional Traveler
2021-05-14 22:10:31 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
There was some nonsense about them being extremely intelligent
because, of course, all the /smart/ people migrated from Earth,
leaving only the dummies behind.
And bred true for intelligence. Heinlein as elitist snob.
I always thought it was funny that Heinlein, who died in the nation where
he was born, was convinced emigrants were superior people, whereas Nevil
Shute, who emigrated to Australia, seemed to propose in In the Wet that
the colonies were so rich in resources any fool could prosper and many
did.
I have, however, heard it suggested in an academic setting that, after
the '48, those who moved to America were the ones who didn't like the
European class system -- and those who stayed were those who had no
problems with it, even though, as peasants, they were on the bottom
rung.
But I'm not sure how well that would stand up to a reality check.
--
I lived in Milwaukee for a great chunk of my adult life,. The
story of the "Forty-Eighters" was well-known out there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty-Eighters
Oh, *eighteen*-forty-eight. That makes more sense. Mind, much
of Europe was still in bad shape in 1948, but perhaps there was
not as much of a motive (or ability) to emigrate.
I've lived in California for most of my life, and never heard the
term before. Forty-niners, now, we had lots of those.
And probably a few Forty-Eighters who became Forty-Niners. ;)
Quite possible. Now I'm envisioning a former revolutionary
heading to Sacramento with a copy of _De Re Metallica_ in his
rucksack. But not likely*, even if the former revolutionary had
been a student; the Latin in it is bizarre, partially made-up,
and not to be translated till Herbert Hoover, a former mining
engineer, and his wife Lou, a Latinist, took on the task.
_____
*But there might be a story in it, particularly if the student
had majored in metallurgy and had a lot of Latin. Anyway, he'd
be unlikely to be looking for anything but _aurum._
Then what are you waiting for?! Get to writing woman! :D
--
Troll, troll, troll your post gently down the thread
Angrily, angrily, angrily, the net's a nut's scream.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-15 00:51:08 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
There was some nonsense about them being extremely intelligent
because, of course, all the /smart/ people migrated from Earth,
leaving only the dummies behind.
And bred true for intelligence. Heinlein as elitist snob.
I always thought it was funny that Heinlein, who died in the
nation where
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
he was born, was convinced emigrants were superior people, whereas Nevil
Shute, who emigrated to Australia, seemed to propose in In the Wet that
the colonies were so rich in resources any fool could prosper and many
did.
I have, however, heard it suggested in an academic setting that, after
the '48, those who moved to America were the ones who didn't like the
European class system -- and those who stayed were those who had no
problems with it, even though, as peasants, they were on the bottom
rung.
But I'm not sure how well that would stand up to a reality check.
--
I lived in Milwaukee for a great chunk of my adult life,. The
story of the "Forty-Eighters" was well-known out there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty-Eighters
Oh, *eighteen*-forty-eight. That makes more sense. Mind, much
of Europe was still in bad shape in 1948, but perhaps there was
not as much of a motive (or ability) to emigrate.
I've lived in California for most of my life, and never heard the
term before. Forty-niners, now, we had lots of those.
And probably a few Forty-Eighters who became Forty-Niners. ;)
Quite possible. Now I'm envisioning a former revolutionary
heading to Sacramento with a copy of _De Re Metallica_ in his
rucksack. But not likely*, even if the former revolutionary had
been a student; the Latin in it is bizarre, partially made-up,
and not to be translated till Herbert Hoover, a former mining
engineer, and his wife Lou, a Latinist, took on the task.
_____
*But there might be a story in it, particularly if the student
had majored in metallurgy and had a lot of Latin. Anyway, he'd
be unlikely to be looking for anything but _aurum._
Then what are you waiting for?! Get to writing woman! :D
I'm still working on my space opera, the one where Mars and Venus
were terraformed so long ago that nobody remembers how it was
done (so I don't have to invent it).
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
William Hyde
2021-05-14 20:44:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
There was some nonsense about them being extremely intelligent
because, of course, all the /smart/ people migrated from Earth,
leaving only the dummies behind.
And bred true for intelligence. Heinlein as elitist snob.
I always thought it was funny that Heinlein, who died in the nation where
he was born, was convinced emigrants were superior people,
Ah, but you see, the superiority is passed on to the children and grandchildren
of emigrants, all the way to one Robert Heinlein.

There it stops and they all become juvenile delinquents and/or pinkos.


whereas Nevil
Shute, who emigrated to Australia, seemed to propose in In the Wet that
the colonies were so rich in resources any fool could prosper and many
did.
Emigrating to Australia doesn't count.
Has there been the great SF FILTH novel, in which some no hoper Terran
leaves Earth in favour of a less competitive world?
There have been plenty of stories in which a Terran who blotted his (or lately, her) copybook has been sent to the boonies. This being SF, however, the blot was usually in being right when his/her boss was wrong.

IIRC in Aldiss' "The Interpreter", the alien governor of Earth was an incompetent who had been dumped on the backwater world where he could do no damage.

William Hyde
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-14 21:06:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by Paul S Person
There was some nonsense about them being extremely intelligent
because, of course, all the /smart/ people migrated from Earth,
leaving only the dummies behind.
And bred true for intelligence. Heinlein as elitist snob.
I always thought it was funny that Heinlein, who died in the nation where
he was born, was convinced emigrants were superior people,
Ah, but you see, the superiority is passed on to the children and grandchildren
of emigrants, all the way to one Robert Heinlein.
There it stops and they all become juvenile delinquents and/or pinkos.
whereas Nevil
Shute, who emigrated to Australia, seemed to propose in In the Wet that
the colonies were so rich in resources any fool could prosper and many
did.
Emigrating to Australia doesn't count.
Has there been the great SF FILTH novel, in which some no hoper Terran
leaves Earth in favour of a less competitive world?
There have been plenty of stories in which a Terran who blotted his (or
lately, her) copybook has been sent to the boonies. This being SF,
however, the blot was usually in being right when his/her boss was
wrong.
IIRC in Aldiss' "The Interpreter", the alien governor of Earth was an
incompetent who had been dumped on the backwater world where he could do
no damage.
Ooooh, I've worked for people like that.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Gary R. Schmidt
2021-05-15 03:50:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[SNIP]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by William Hyde
There have been plenty of stories in which a Terran who blotted his (or
lately, her) copybook has been sent to the boonies. This being SF,
however, the blot was usually in being right when his/her boss was
wrong.
IIRC in Aldiss' "The Interpreter", the alien governor of Earth was an
incompetent who had been dumped on the backwater world where he could do
no damage.
Ooooh, I've worked for people like that.
Some days I wonder if *I* am the person like that! ;-)

Cheers,
Gary B-)
--
Waiting for a new signature to suggest itself...
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-15 04:45:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
[SNIP]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by William Hyde
There have been plenty of stories in which a Terran who blotted his (or
lately, her) copybook has been sent to the boonies. This being SF,
however, the blot was usually in being right when his/her boss was
wrong.
IIRC in Aldiss' "The Interpreter", the alien governor of Earth was an
incompetent who had been dumped on the backwater world where he could do
no damage.
Ooooh, I've worked for people like that.
Some days I wonder if *I* am the person like that! ;-)
Let us hope not.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2021-05-15 08:39:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Woodward
[SNIP]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by William Hyde
There have been plenty of stories in which a Terran who blotted his (or
lately, her) copybook has been sent to the boonies. This being SF,
however, the blot was usually in being right when his/her boss was
wrong.
IIRC in Aldiss' "The Interpreter", the alien governor of Earth was an
incompetent who had been dumped on the backwater world where he could do
no damage.
Ooooh, I've worked for people like that.
Some days I wonder if *I* am the person like that! ;-)
Let us hope not.
--
"...the person like that....." would not be self-aware enough
to consider that notion, so Gary is probably OK in that regard.
--
Kevin R
Gary R. Schmidt
2021-05-15 13:14:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Woodward
[SNIP]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by William Hyde
There have been plenty of stories in which a Terran who blotted his (or
lately, her) copybook has been sent to the boonies. This being SF,
however, the blot was usually in being right when his/her boss was
wrong.
IIRC in Aldiss' "The Interpreter", the alien governor of Earth was an
incompetent who had been dumped on the backwater world where he could do
no damage.
Ooooh, I've worked for people like that.
Some days I wonder if *I* am the person like that! ;-)
Let us hope not.
--
"...the person like that....." would not be self-aware enough
to consider that notion, so Gary is probably OK in that regard.
Thank you!

I shall relax. :-)

Cheers,
Gary B-)
--
Waiting for a new signature to suggest itself...
Jonathan
2021-05-19 23:20:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Gary R. Schmidt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Woodward
[SNIP]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by William Hyde
There have been plenty of stories in which a Terran who blotted his (or
lately, her) copybook has been sent to the boonies. This being SF,
however, the blot was usually in being right when his/her boss was
wrong.
IIRC in Aldiss' "The Interpreter", the alien governor of Earth was an
incompetent who had been dumped on the backwater world where he could do
no damage.
Ooooh, I've worked for people like that.
Some days I wonder if *I* am the person like that! ;-)
Let us hope not.
--
"...the person like that....." would not be self-aware enough
to consider that notion, so Gary is probably OK in that regard.
Thank you!
I shall relax.  :-)
    Cheers,
        Gary    B-)
Here's a quiz on bad bosses. But I agree
with the sentiment expressed above.
If you're wondering, you're probably not.



14 Tell-Tale Signs That You're A Bad Boss.

You think all of your staff are idiots. ...
You lose your temper. ...
It's your way or the highway! ...
You never thank or reward your staff. ...
You take credit for your employees' work. ...
You bend the rules, where they can't. ...
You don't do performance reviews. ...
You're negative.

More items...


https://www.coburgbanks.co.uk/blog/staff-retention/14-signs-youre-a-bad-boss/
--
https://twitter.com/Non_Linear1
Magewolf
2021-05-15 20:28:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Woodward
[SNIP]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by William Hyde
There have been plenty of stories in which a Terran who blotted his
(or lately, her) copybook has been sent to the boonies. This being
SF, however, the blot was usually in being right when his/her boss
was wrong.
IIRC in Aldiss' "The Interpreter", the alien governor of Earth was
an incompetent who had been dumped on the backwater world where he
could do no damage.
Ooooh, I've worked for people like that.
Some days I wonder if *I* am the person like that! ;-)
Let us hope not.
--
"...the person like that....." would not be self-aware enough to
consider that notion, so Gary is probably OK in that regard.
I am sure Gary is not one but I disagree with the lack of self-
awareness. I have quite a few relatives like that who worked for my
father. And a few of them at least were aware of the fact they were just
there to do busy work where they could do no damage.
Jonathan
2021-05-19 23:14:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
[SNIP]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by William Hyde
There have been plenty of stories in which a Terran who blotted his (or
lately, her) copybook has been sent to the boonies.  This being SF,
however, the blot was usually in being right when his/her boss was
wrong.
IIRC in Aldiss' "The Interpreter", the alien governor of Earth was an
incompetent who had been dumped on the backwater world where he could do
no damage.
Ooooh, I've worked for people like that.
Some days I wonder if *I* am the person like that!  ;-)
    Cheers,
        Gary    B-)
On the Comedy channel a comedian was joking
about how when he's out at a club how often
you see a group of girls, but there's always
that 'other girl' that just doesn't belong
not nearly as attractive as the rest.

He went on that he always seems to end up
with that 'other girl'.

That's when he realized he's that 'other guy'
of his friends.
--
https://twitter.com/Non_Linear1
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-05-19 23:39:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
IIRC in Aldiss' "The Interpreter", the alien governor of Earth
was an incompetent who had been dumped on the backwater world
where he could do no damage.
That is basically the premise of the TV show "People of Earth."
(Except it was a staff of several aliens, and they all hated each
other's guts.)
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-20 00:14:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by William Hyde
IIRC in Aldiss' "The Interpreter", the alien governor of Earth
was an incompetent who had been dumped on the backwater world
where he could do no damage.
That is basically the premise of the TV show "People of Earth."
(Except it was a staff of several aliens, and they all hated each
other's guts.)
Hmmm. Campbell would've liked that story.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
William Hyde
2021-05-20 05:27:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by William Hyde
IIRC in Aldiss' "The Interpreter", the alien governor of Earth
was an incompetent who had been dumped on the backwater world
where he could do no damage.
That is basically the premise of the TV show "People of Earth."
(Except it was a staff of several aliens, and they all hated each
other's guts.)
In the Aldiss story the aliens were also riven by infighting. One Alien makes the terribly expensive trip from Earth to the capital with physical evidence of government wrongdoing on Earth. And nobody cares.
Hmmm. Campbell would've liked that story.
Maybe not the Aldiss, though.

We do not overthrow the alien rulers, we are just sufficiently annoying, unprofitable and badly located that they can't really be bothered with us as long as we are technically a part of the empire. Aldiss cites the example of places "within" the Persian empire that never saw a government official from one generation to the next.

More of a William Tenn ending than a Campbell.

William Hyde
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-05-20 16:02:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by William Hyde
IIRC in Aldiss' "The Interpreter", the alien governor of Earth
was an incompetent who had been dumped on the backwater world
where he could do no damage.
That is basically the premise of the TV show "People of Earth."
(Except it was a staff of several aliens, and they all hated each
other's guts.)
Hmmm. Campbell would've liked that story.
It had a certain charm, at least in the 1st season.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
David Brown
2021-05-08 00:50:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
_The Steerswoman_ by Rosemary Kirstein is one example. The background
for the _Pillars of Reality_ series by Jack Campbell (John G. Hemry) is
another (in this case, the crew violated their mission orders). David
Weber's _Safehold_ series is a variant, where the passengers were in
suspended animation (but rather drastic editing of their memories took
place, also in violation of mission orders). I don't believe that _A
Gift from Earth_ by Larry Niven qualifies (the crew ruled with a heavy
hand, but I don't remember suppression of basic knowledge appearing in
the novel).
What other titles can people list?
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
ã-----------------------------------------------------
There's a Fredric Brown story that I don't recall the title of a bit like it. It's about human children that have been genetically engineered to live on Mars without being told about the experiment. It's told from the viewpoint of one of the children, apart from that really a bit formulaic by the author's standards.
Andrew Love
2021-05-09 01:10:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
There's a Fredric Brown story that I don't recall the title of a bit like it. It's about human children that have been genetically >engineered to live on Mars without being told about the experiment. It's told from the viewpoint of one of the children, apart >from that really a bit formulaic by the author's standards.
"Keep Out"
Titus G
2021-05-18 03:52:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Love
There's a Fredric Brown story that I don't recall the title of a bit like it. It's about human children that have been genetically >engineered to live on Mars without being told about the experiment. It's told from the viewpoint of one of the children, apart >from that really a bit formulaic by the author's standards.
"Keep Out"
He has a lot of single page short stories which are interesting but
forgettable, similar to jokes as each has a punchline. "Keep Out" is
only about three or four pages and has a punchline.
Andrew Love
2021-05-09 01:12:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
Sylvia Engdahl's "This Star Shall Abide" fits that pattern as I recall.
Jonathan
2021-05-11 16:10:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Love
Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
Sylvia Engdahl's "This Star Shall Abide" fits that pattern as I recall.
Without Earth there is no human race.

How can we expect to make it anywhere else
if we can't make it on the planet with the
most bounteous natural beauty and ideal
conditions...POSSIBLE?

The entire concept of colonizing as a means
of protecting the human race is a logical
contradiction.

Besides, the notion of saving humanity must
necessarily include saving the billions
on earth. Not dozens.

Not to mention the smaller the colony the less likely
it could become sustainable.

It takes countless parts freely interacting
for any system to self organize and gain
the ability to evolve.

Without a naturally evolving system there is
no future worth pursuing.
--
https://twitter.com/Non_Linear1
Paul S Person
2021-05-11 16:37:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jonathan
Post by Andrew Love
Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
Sylvia Engdahl's "This Star Shall Abide" fits that pattern as I recall.
Without Earth there is no human race.
How can we expect to make it anywhere else
if we can't make it on the planet with the
most bounteous natural beauty and ideal
conditions...POSSIBLE?
The film /Titan A.E./ deals with these issues.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Jonathan
2021-05-16 13:23:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Andrew Love
Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
Sylvia Engdahl's "This Star Shall Abide" fits that pattern as I recall.
Without Earth there is no human race.
How can we expect to make it anywhere else
if we can't make it on the planet with the
most bounteous natural beauty and ideal
conditions...POSSIBLE?
The film /Titan A.E./ deals with these issues.
That's fantasy. It assumes FTL travel is as common
as the countless alien civilizations that have it.

There's a basic and gross contradiction in such visions
of the future.

To become advanced enough to be able to travel
among the stars, any civilization would have to
become advanced enough to understand how
nature works.

And having done that, they would have the ability
to live within their means, and they would no longer
need to travel or colonize.

Ignorance of the natural world breeds the
need and desire to colonize and travel to
secure the future and find the grand answers.

Enlightenment negates both the need and desire
to do either.

What is more likely is that as a civilization
becomes more advanced they would go dark.

And live happily every after in their
natural paradise.
--
https://twitter.com/Non_Linear1
Jonathan
2021-05-16 22:28:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jonathan
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Andrew Love
Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
Sylvia Engdahl's "This Star Shall Abide" fits that pattern as I recall.
Without Earth there is no human race.
How can we expect to make it anywhere else
if we can't make it on the planet with the
most bounteous natural beauty and ideal
conditions...POSSIBLE?
The film /Titan A.E./ deals with these issues.
That's fantasy. It assumes FTL travel is as common
as the countless alien civilizations that have it.
There's a basic and gross contradiction in such visions
of the future.
To become advanced enough to be able to travel
among the stars, any civilization would have to
become advanced enough to understand how
nature works.
And having done that, they would have the ability
to live within their means, and they would no longer
need to travel or colonize.
Ignorance of the natural world breeds the
need and desire to colonize and travel to
secure the future and find the grand answers.
Enlightenment negates both the need and desire
to do either.
Enlightenment? Pull the other one. Nobody knows
what enlightenment would mean, if it is even a
thing.
As I said it would be an understanding of how
the natural world truly works, which is the
same knowledge needed to live within our means.

That knowledge is not widely known today, but
it can be boiled down to the following sentence.

SOS FAQ

'The main current scientific theory related to
self-organization is Complexity Theory, which states:

'Critically interacting systems self-organize
to form potentially evolving structures exhibiting
a hierarchy of emergent systems properties.'


But before the above sentence makes the least bit
of sense one has to understand, in detail, each
of the core concepts evoked.

How many people in here understand the following
terms?


The elements of this definition relate to the following:


Critically Interacting - System is information rich, neither
static nor chaotic

Components - Modularity and autonomy of part behavior implied

Self-Organize - Attractor structure is generated by local
contextual interactions

Potentially Evolving - Environmental variation selects and
mutates attractors

Hierarchy - Multiple levels of structure and responses
appear (hyperstructure)

Emergent System Properties - New features are evident which
require a new vocabulary
https://naturalorder.info/self-organizingsystems.html#1.3


Until one does understand the above concepts, and more
importantly how these concepts relate to each other
then they only THINK they know how nature works.
Do you think we live in a teleological universe?
I don't believe there's some wise old man out there
waving a magic wand, and btw neither does the
major religions of the world. That simple view
of a God waving everything into existence is
what is taught to children or those that can't
grasp a more philosophical discussion.

HOWEVER, the modern science of complexity, in particular
the modern view of emergence, has provided a scientific
explanation for what most layman since Day-One have
chalked up as 'Acts of God'.

Emergence explains how an entity is created
/without apparent cause/ while showing how
the most important aspects of creation are
supervenient, or top-down forces that guide
systems towards increasing order or evolution.

As if by the hand of God.

And since emergence is a collective property, owed
to the interactions of systems larger than ourselves
there is nothing factually incorrect in assuming
that we owe our existence to 'something greater'
and 'seemingly mysterious'.

We do!

As that is a core tenet of the concept of complexity
and emergence.

Complexity science has defined nature in such a way
as to be logically consistent with BOTH science
and religion.

At last, the two no longer have to be enemies
but are now complimentary.
A lot of people do, but disagree about what ends it is
supposed to come to.
The ends are the natural beauty, creativity and
resilience we see all around us. Nature!
Post by Jonathan
What is more likely is that as a civilization
becomes more advanced they would go dark.
Addicted to navel gazing or hiding from monsters?
Why do we build these gigantic telescopes and
send probes as far as we can?

Because we understand the universe and have
all the answers? Of course not, it's because
we...don't know those things.

Ignorance drives exploration and the assumption
colonizing is needed, not understanding.

The conclusions of complexity theory, emergence
and self organization are rather clear.

Creation, evolution and life spring from
the highly unconstrained interaction among
countless independent variables-agents.

And the ideal conditions for this process happens
to be the exact conditions created once the
Second Law has done it's job well and created
disorder.

The universe is /chock full/ of independent
variables-agents freely interacting.

And the Second law is just as pervasive.

The universe inherently creates and evolves
in fact it's what the universe does first, best
and every chance it gets.

Create and evolves.

The universe MUST BE chock full of life.
It must be, it's a mathematical certainty.

But FTL travel is almost as impossible as
life is almost certain. We have to merge
those two 'certainties' to create a rational
world view.

We know they're out there, but we'll never
prove it.
Post by Jonathan
And live happily every after in their
natural paradise.
Until they get bored?
Ya Heaven is over rated~

If Heaven is the ultimate existence in the universe
then looking around it appears plain to me that
being alive-and-aware is the pinnacle of existence.

So the logical conclusion must be....

THIS IS HEAVEN!

We are already there. Good, bad or indifferent this
is what Heaven is like. It only takes a little
perspective to understand this simple conclusion.

This is what I believe it means to be 'born again'.

To understand our astonishingly wondrous place
in the universe, and enjoy every minute.

As Emily wrote so well, it was some simple mathematics
that gave her eternal joy. The math that
Heaven and Earth are ONE.

She called the Supremest earthly sum.

And this realization also caused her to stop asking
why, why, why destruction and misery exists.



ONE blessing had I, than the rest
So larger to my eyes
That I stopped gauging, satisfied,
For this enchanted size.

It was the limit of my dream,
The focus of my prayer,—
A perfect, paralyzing bliss
Contented as despair.

I knew no more of want or cold,
Phantasms both become,
For this new value in the soul,
Supremest earthly sum.

The heaven below the heaven above
Obscured with ruddier hue.
Life’s latitude leant over-full;
The judgment perished, too.

Why joys so scantily disburse,
Why Paradise defer,
Why floods are served to us in bowls,—
I speculate no more.





Thanks for reading


Jonathan
--
https://twitter.com/Non_Linear1
Kevrob
2021-05-17 01:51:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jonathan
Post by Jonathan
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Andrew Love
Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
Sylvia Engdahl's "This Star Shall Abide" fits that pattern as I recall.
Without Earth there is no human race.
How can we expect to make it anywhere else
if we can't make it on the planet with the
most bounteous natural beauty and ideal
conditions...POSSIBLE?
The film /Titan A.E./ deals with these issues.
That's fantasy. It assumes FTL travel is as common
as the countless alien civilizations that have it.
There's a basic and gross contradiction in such visions
of the future.
To become advanced enough to be able to travel
among the stars, any civilization would have to
become advanced enough to understand how
nature works.
And having done that, they would have the ability
to live within their means, and they would no longer
need to travel or colonize.
Ignorance of the natural world breeds the
need and desire to colonize and travel to
secure the future and find the grand answers.
Enlightenment negates both the need and desire
to do either.
Enlightenment? Pull the other one. Nobody knows
what enlightenment would mean, if it is even a
thing.
As I said it would be an understanding of how
the natural world truly works, which is the
same knowledge needed to live within our means.
That knowledge is not widely known today, but
it can be boiled down to the following sentence.
SOS FAQ
[snipped J's religious tract]
--
Kevin R
Jonathan
2021-05-19 21:42:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
Post by Jonathan
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Andrew Love
Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
Sylvia Engdahl's "This Star Shall Abide" fits that pattern as I recall.
Without Earth there is no human race.
How can we expect to make it anywhere else
if we can't make it on the planet with the
most bounteous natural beauty and ideal
conditions...POSSIBLE?
The film /Titan A.E./ deals with these issues.
That's fantasy. It assumes FTL travel is as common
as the countless alien civilizations that have it.
There's a basic and gross contradiction in such visions
of the future.
To become advanced enough to be able to travel
among the stars, any civilization would have to
become advanced enough to understand how
nature works.
And having done that, they would have the ability
to live within their means, and they would no longer
need to travel or colonize.
Ignorance of the natural world breeds the
need and desire to colonize and travel to
secure the future and find the grand answers.
Enlightenment negates both the need and desire
to do either.
Enlightenment? Pull the other one. Nobody knows
what enlightenment would mean, if it is even a
thing.
As I said it would be an understanding of how
the natural world truly works, which is the
same knowledge needed to live within our means.
That knowledge is not widely known today, but
it can be boiled down to the following sentence.
SOS FAQ
[snipped J's religious tract]
Wow! This is all mainstream science.
I'm sorry for introducing you to a
science you've never heard of.

Here's a few references, perhaps it's
best you have an idea of what you're
talking about before waving you hand
in dismissal?


"I think the next [21st] century will be the century
of complexity" – Stephen Hawking

"Such a collection is called a complex system and it
requires *new mathematical frameworks* and
*scientific methodologies* for its investigation."
https://complexityexplained.github.io/


A tutorial from Notre Dame

Complex Adaptive Systems:
Emergence and Self-Organization
Tutorial Presented at HICSS-42

A Final Word!
Alfred North Whitehead

"We have a tendency to mistake our models
for reality, especially when they are
good models."
https://www3.nd.edu/~gmadey/Activities/CAS-Briefing.pdf




Univ of Michigan

Center for the Study of Complex Systems

What do we do at CSCS? What do we do at CSCS? Our Center
studies systems like economies, the brain, ecosystems,
political systems, social networks, and the Internet that
consist of many interacting parts, which in turn produce
collective behaviors that exceed the capabilities of the
constituent parts.
https://lsa.umich.edu/cscs/



Emergence in Biology
Edited by Laura Franklin-Hall (New York University)
https://philpapers.org/browse/emergence-in-biology
--
https://twitter.com/Non_Linear1
Kevrob
2021-05-21 10:57:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
Post by Jonathan
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Andrew Love
Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
Sylvia Engdahl's "This Star Shall Abide" fits that pattern as I recall.
Without Earth there is no human race.
How can we expect to make it anywhere else
if we can't make it on the planet with the
most bounteous natural beauty and ideal
conditions...POSSIBLE?
The film /Titan A.E./ deals with these issues.
That's fantasy. It assumes FTL travel is as common
as the countless alien civilizations that have it.
There's a basic and gross contradiction in such visions
of the future.
To become advanced enough to be able to travel
among the stars, any civilization would have to
become advanced enough to understand how
nature works.
And having done that, they would have the ability
to live within their means, and they would no longer
need to travel or colonize.
Ignorance of the natural world breeds the
need and desire to colonize and travel to
secure the future and find the grand answers.
Enlightenment negates both the need and desire
to do either.
Enlightenment? Pull the other one. Nobody knows
what enlightenment would mean, if it is even a
thing.
As I said it would be an understanding of how
the natural world truly works, which is the
same knowledge needed to live within our means.
That knowledge is not widely known today, but
it can be boiled down to the following sentence.
SOS FAQ
[snipped J's religious tract]
Wow! This is all mainstream science.
I'm sorry for introducing you to a
science you've never heard of.
I have heard of it.
It is your insistence in treating the emergence
of complex system as some sort of divinity that
bothers me. The transcendentalist woo doesn't help.
Here's a few references, perhaps it's
best you have an idea of what you're
talking about before waving you hand
in dismissal?
"I think the next [21st] century will be the century
of complexity" – Stephen Hawking
"Such a collection is called a complex system and it
requires *new mathematical frameworks* and
*scientific methodologies* for its investigation."
https://complexityexplained.github.io/
A tutorial from Notre Dame
Emergence and Self-Organization
Tutorial Presented at HICSS-42
A Final Word!
Alfred North Whitehead
"We have a tendency to mistake our models
for reality, especially when they are
good models."
https://www3.nd.edu/~gmadey/Activities/CAS-Briefing.pdf
I read some Whitehead at my university, but in
regards to theology:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/process-theism/

Points to him for considering the idea of a ghod who
has some limitations, heretical as that may have been
in the religion in which I was raised.
Univ of Michigan
Center for the Study of Complex Systems
What do we do at CSCS? What do we do at CSCS? Our Center
studies systems like economies, the brain, ecosystems,
political systems, social networks, and the Internet that
consist of many interacting parts, which in turn produce
collective behaviors that exceed the capabilities of the
constituent parts.
https://lsa.umich.edu/cscs/
Emergence in Biology
Edited by Laura Franklin-Hall (New York University)
https://philpapers.org/browse/emergence-in-biology
Leave the woo out and I'm fine with emergent systems, et al.
The tub-thumping for woo is what annoys. Try keeping the
chocolate out of the peanut butter.

I think various modern pharmaceuticals, if taken in appropriate
doses, as prescribed, might have helped Ms Dickinson.
--
Kevin R
Jonathan
2021-05-21 15:36:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
Post by Jonathan
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Andrew Love
Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
Sylvia Engdahl's "This Star Shall Abide" fits that pattern as I recall.
Without Earth there is no human race.
How can we expect to make it anywhere else
if we can't make it on the planet with the
most bounteous natural beauty and ideal
conditions...POSSIBLE?
The film /Titan A.E./ deals with these issues.
That's fantasy. It assumes FTL travel is as common
as the countless alien civilizations that have it.
There's a basic and gross contradiction in such visions
of the future.
To become advanced enough to be able to travel
among the stars, any civilization would have to
become advanced enough to understand how
nature works.
And having done that, they would have the ability
to live within their means, and they would no longer
need to travel or colonize.
Ignorance of the natural world breeds the
need and desire to colonize and travel to
secure the future and find the grand answers.
Enlightenment negates both the need and desire
to do either.
Enlightenment? Pull the other one. Nobody knows
what enlightenment would mean, if it is even a
thing.
As I said it would be an understanding of how
the natural world truly works, which is the
same knowledge needed to live within our means.
That knowledge is not widely known today, but
it can be boiled down to the following sentence.
SOS FAQ
[snipped J's religious tract]
Wow! This is all mainstream science.
I'm sorry for introducing you to a
science you've never heard of.
I have heard of it.
It is your insistence in treating the emergence
of complex system as some sort of divinity that
bothers me. The transcendentalist woo doesn't help.
But the objective reductionism we all grew up with
naturally leads one to reduce-and-reduce
to ever smaller parts to explain the ultimate
source of reality or order.

With the logical end point the so-called 'God particle'.

Are you aware that complexity science and
especially emergence is a process that
expands-andexpands to ever greater emergent
systems instead to explain the source of order?

And what is the logical endpoint of a
process with that direction?

This new scientific method needs to be
thought through before dismissing it's
/obvious/ religious implications.
Post by Kevrob
Here's a few references, perhaps it's
best you have an idea of what you're
talking about before waving you hand
in dismissal?
"I think the next [21st] century will be the century
of complexity" – Stephen Hawking
"Such a collection is called a complex system and it
requires *new mathematical frameworks* and
*scientific methodologies* for its investigation."
https://complexityexplained.github.io/
A tutorial from Notre Dame
Emergence and Self-Organization
Tutorial Presented at HICSS-42
A Final Word!
Alfred North Whitehead
"We have a tendency to mistake our models
for reality, especially when they are
good models."
https://www3.nd.edu/~gmadey/Activities/CAS-Briefing.pdf
I read some Whitehead at my university, but in
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/process-theism/
Points to him for considering the idea of a ghod who
has some limitations, heretical as that may have been
in the religion in which I was raised.
Univ of Michigan
Center for the Study of Complex Systems
What do we do at CSCS? What do we do at CSCS? Our Center
studies systems like economies, the brain, ecosystems,
political systems, social networks, and the Internet that
consist of many interacting parts, which in turn produce
collective behaviors that exceed the capabilities of the
constituent parts.
https://lsa.umich.edu/cscs/
Emergence in Biology
Edited by Laura Franklin-Hall (New York University)
https://philpapers.org/browse/emergence-in-biology
Leave the woo out and I'm fine with emergent systems, et al.
The tub-thumping for woo is what annoys. Try keeping the
chocolate out of the peanut butter.
I think various modern pharmaceuticals, if taken in appropriate
doses, as prescribed, might have helped Ms Dickinson.
Let's define what most would call an 'Act of God'.
Would the following qualify?

Creation, or an effect without an apparent cause.

They do not follow established physical laws.

They can't be destroyed, but appear and disappear
instead.

They tend to vanish into thin air upon close
examination.
--
https://twitter.com/Non_Linear1
Jonathan
2021-05-21 15:54:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
Post by Jonathan
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Andrew Love
Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
Sylvia Engdahl's "This Star Shall Abide" fits that pattern as I recall.
Without Earth there is no human race.
How can we expect to make it anywhere else
if we can't make it on the planet with the
most bounteous natural beauty and ideal
conditions...POSSIBLE?
The film /Titan A.E./ deals with these issues.
That's fantasy. It assumes FTL travel is as common
as the countless alien civilizations that have it.
There's a basic and gross contradiction in such visions
of the future.
To become advanced enough to be able to travel
among the stars, any civilization would have to
become advanced enough to understand how
nature works.
And having done that, they would have the ability
to live within their means, and they would no longer
need to travel or colonize.
Ignorance of the natural world breeds the
need and desire to colonize and travel to
secure the future and find the grand answers.
Enlightenment negates both the need and desire
to do either.
Enlightenment? Pull the other one. Nobody knows
what enlightenment would mean, if it is even a
thing.
As I said it would be an understanding of how
the natural world truly works, which is the
same knowledge needed to live within our means.
That knowledge is not widely known today, but
it can be boiled down to the following sentence.
SOS FAQ
[snipped J's religious tract]
Wow! This is all mainstream science.
I'm sorry for introducing you to a
science you've never heard of.
I have heard of it.
It is your insistence in treating the emergence
of complex system as some sort of divinity that
bothers me. The transcendentalist woo doesn't help.
Here's a few references, perhaps it's
best you have an idea of what you're
talking about before waving you hand
in dismissal?
"I think the next [21st] century will be the century
of complexity" – Stephen Hawking
"Such a collection is called a complex system and it
requires *new mathematical frameworks* and
*scientific methodologies* for its investigation."
https://complexityexplained.github.io/
A tutorial from Notre Dame
Emergence and Self-Organization
Tutorial Presented at HICSS-42
A Final Word!
Alfred North Whitehead
"We have a tendency to mistake our models
for reality, especially when they are
good models."
https://www3.nd.edu/~gmadey/Activities/CAS-Briefing.pdf
I read some Whitehead at my university, but in
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/process-theism/
Points to him for considering the idea of a ghod who
has some limitations, heretical as that may have been
in the religion in which I was raised.
Univ of Michigan
Center for the Study of Complex Systems
What do we do at CSCS? What do we do at CSCS? Our Center
studies systems like economies, the brain, ecosystems,
political systems, social networks, and the Internet that
consist of many interacting parts, which in turn produce
collective behaviors that exceed the capabilities of the
constituent parts.
https://lsa.umich.edu/cscs/
Emergence in Biology
Edited by Laura Franklin-Hall (New York University)
https://philpapers.org/browse/emergence-in-biology
Leave the woo out and I'm fine with emergent systems, et al.
The tub-thumping for woo is what annoys. Try keeping the
chocolate out of the peanut butter.
Science and philosophy are not apples and oranges.
They are complimentary, as in one begins where
the other ends.

To believe science can provide all the answers is the
great delusion of our times.

For instance, physics still can't predict the
...eh hum.../three/ body problem without doing
absurd cartwheels around reality.

And to think such a science can unravel nature
with it's countless random events displays
a shocking level of unbridled Faith that
would cause even the most fervent Bible thumper
to blush.
Post by Kevrob
I think various modern pharmaceuticals, if taken in appropriate
doses, as prescribed, might have helped Ms Dickinson.
Proof is a poor substitute for abstract thought.
Only via analogy can reality be clearly seen.


I NEVER saw a moor,
I never saw the sea;
Yet know I how the heather looks,
And what a wave must be.
I never spoke with God,
Nor visited in heaven;
Yet certain am I of the spot
As if the chart were given.


~ E Dickinson
--
https://twitter.com/Non_Linear1
Kevrob
2021-05-21 20:44:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kevrob
Leave the woo out and I'm fine with emergent systems, et al.
The tub-thumping for woo is what annoys. Try keeping the
chocolate out of the peanut butter.
Science and philosophy are not apples and oranges.
You are term-shifting, there. Woo =/ philosophy.
Remember that science used to be called "natural
philosophy" and the "divide" between the two boils down
to a branch of the discipline growing so that it set up shop
on its own. The same goes for theology, but for those of
us unconvinced of the existence of deities, that "branch of
knowledge" belongs out on its own, with other speculative
modes of thought. It's mythology and unadmitted fiction.
Post by Jonathan
They are complimentary, as in one begins where
the other ends.
To believe science can provide all the answers is the
great delusion of our times.
For instance, physics still can't predict the
...eh hum.../three/ body problem without doing
absurd cartwheels around reality.
And to think such a science can unravel nature
with it's countless random events displays
a shocking level of unbridled Faith that
would cause even the most fervent Bible thumper
to blush.
I certainly think moral problems are the province of a branch
of philosophy: Ethics.

One learns about religion because it has influenced our history,
and believers in religions continue to be affect us today. One
may admire the poetry, the repositories of custom and customary
law and find the
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kevrob
I think various modern pharmaceuticals, if taken in appropriate
doses, as prescribed, might have helped Ms Dickinson.
Proof is a poor substitute for abstract thought.
Only via analogy can reality be clearly seen.
We can't see "reality" - just take in sensory experiences
for our brains to interpret. That's not to say there aren't
real things, just that as physical beings we have limitations
on gathering data before visualizing the cosmic all.
Post by Jonathan
I NEVER saw a moor,
I never saw the sea;
How do you live in Amherst, MA and never travel the 90 mi to
Boston or the 80 mi to Providence. They had trains. Lady was
obsessed with the sea, bu couldn't book a week on "the Irish
Riviera?" (Probably wasn't called that, yet.)
Post by Jonathan
Yet know I how the heather looks,
Apparently based on no data at all. Photography was
a new art. Had she seen B&W pictures, even?
Post by Jonathan
And what a wave must be.
The sea, again, though perhaps she'd seen waves
in a lake or river. I grew up on an island, so
"has never seen the sea" would make me think of
someone loving in Nebraska, or thereabouts.
Post by Jonathan
I never spoke with God,
Nor visited in heaven;
Yet certain am I of the spot
As if the chart were given.
Imagination is a wonderful thing.
I "know" what dragons look like, too.
That doesn't mean there are any.

That's what fairy stories and SF are for.
--
Kevin R
Kevrob
2021-05-22 01:26:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Kevrob
How do you live in Amherst, MA and never travel the 90 mi to
Boston or the 80 mi to Providence? They had trains. Lady was?
obsessed with the sea, but couldn't book a week on "the Irish
Riviera?" (Probably wasn't called that, yet.)
She and her sister did visit Phila and Wash, DC, once. There
were train routes that would avoid the seaside. They did take
a steamboat on the Potomac. Also, Emily went to Cambridge Ma
for consultation with an eye doctor. If she had gone down to Boston
Harbor, could she have seen the sea?
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
Yet know I how the heather looks,
[snip]

I'm going to "cancel" Ms Dickinson:

[quote]

"....and Vinnie and I say masses for poor Irish boys souls. So far as I am
concerned I should like to have you kill some - there are so many now,
there is no room for the Americans, and I cant think of a death that would
be more after my mind than scientific destruction, scholastic dissolution,
there's something lofty in it, it smacks of going up!"..."

[/quote] - Letter to Austin Dickinson

http://archive.emilydickinson.org/correspondence/austin/l43.html

Anti-Irish bigot!
--
Kevin R
J. Clarke
2021-05-22 02:07:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
Post by Kevrob
How do you live in Amherst, MA and never travel the 90 mi to
Boston or the 80 mi to Providence? They had trains. Lady was?
obsessed with the sea, but couldn't book a week on "the Irish
Riviera?" (Probably wasn't called that, yet.)
She and her sister did visit Phila and Wash, DC, once. There
were train routes that would avoid the seaside. They did take
a steamboat on the Potomac. Also, Emily went to Cambridge Ma
for consultation with an eye doctor. If she had gone down to Boston
Harbor, could she have seen the sea?
And does _seeing_ the sea mean _knowing_ the sea? I wouldn't claim to
_know_ the sea and I've felt it tossing around a 2000 ton ship under
me while green water came across the bow well aft of the forward
turrent.
Post by Kevrob
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
Yet know I how the heather looks,
[snip]
[quote]
"....and Vinnie and I say masses for poor Irish boys souls. So far as I am
concerned I should like to have you kill some - there are so many now,
there is no room for the Americans, and I cant think of a death that would
be more after my mind than scientific destruction, scholastic dissolution,
there's something lofty in it, it smacks of going up!"..."
[/quote] - Letter to Austin Dickinson
http://archive.emilydickinson.org/correspondence/austin/l43.html
Anti-Irish bigot!
Paul S Person
2021-05-22 16:20:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 21 May 2021 22:07:24 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
Post by Kevrob
How do you live in Amherst, MA and never travel the 90 mi to
Boston or the 80 mi to Providence? They had trains. Lady was?
obsessed with the sea, but couldn't book a week on "the Irish
Riviera?" (Probably wasn't called that, yet.)
She and her sister did visit Phila and Wash, DC, once. There
were train routes that would avoid the seaside. They did take
a steamboat on the Potomac. Also, Emily went to Cambridge Ma
for consultation with an eye doctor. If she had gone down to Boston
Harbor, could she have seen the sea?
And does _seeing_ the sea mean _knowing_ the sea? I wouldn't claim to
_know_ the sea and I've felt it tossing around a 2000 ton ship under
me while green water came across the bow well aft of the forward
turrent.
You may not have "known" it, but it appears that you certain made it's
acquaintence.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
James Nicoll
2021-05-23 19:21:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 21 May 2021 22:07:24 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
Post by Kevrob
How do you live in Amherst, MA and never travel the 90 mi to
Boston or the 80 mi to Providence? They had trains. Lady was?
obsessed with the sea, but couldn't book a week on "the Irish
Riviera?" (Probably wasn't called that, yet.)
She and her sister did visit Phila and Wash, DC, once. There
were train routes that would avoid the seaside. They did take
a steamboat on the Potomac.
The Potomac is emphatically not "the sea."
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Kevrob
Also, Emily went to Cambridge Ma
for consultation with an eye doctor. If she had gone down to Boston
Harbor, could she have seen the sea?
Not really, except in a technical sense. The harbor is pretty
enclosed, not much like open ocean. It's also entirely possible to
visit Cambridge and not see any body of water but the Charles River; I
used to do it pretty regularly when I lived in Massachusetts. If I
wanted to see the sea I'd go to Salisbury or Cape Cod, not Cambridge
or Boston.
Post by J. Clarke
And does _seeing_ the sea mean _knowing_ the sea? I wouldn't claim to
_know_ the sea and I've felt it tossing around a 2000 ton ship under
me while green water came across the bow well aft of the forward
turrent.
I'm not sure anyone who hasn't taken a small boat out in a variety of
weather really _knows_ the sea.
My grandfather was the engineer on the Eppleton Hall, a refurbished
1914 River Tyne paddlewheel tug that was delivered from the UK to
San Francisco's Maritime Museum by steaming across the Atlantic.
Scott Newhall's book on the trip is an upbeat tale of grand adventure.
Something I only learned in 2014 is that Pop spent the trip extremely
concerned about the risks involved, because a number of the crew were
minors and it would be sad were they to die young in a tug making a
journey for which it was manifestly not designed.

Something that never came up on the Tyne was that open ocean storms
could drive water up through the toilet with a surprising amount of
force....
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2021-05-23 21:41:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 21 May 2021 22:07:24 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
Post by Kevrob
How do you live in Amherst, MA and never travel the 90 mi to
Boston or the 80 mi to Providence? They had trains. Lady was?
obsessed with the sea, but couldn't book a week on "the Irish
Riviera?" (Probably wasn't called that, yet.)
She and her sister did visit Phila and Wash, DC, once. There
were train routes that would avoid the seaside. They did take
a steamboat on the Potomac.
The Potomac is emphatically not "the sea."
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Kevrob
Also, Emily went to Cambridge Ma
for consultation with an eye doctor. If she had gone down to Boston
Harbor, could she have seen the sea?
Not really, except in a technical sense. The harbor is pretty
enclosed, not much like open ocean. It's also entirely possible to
visit Cambridge and not see any body of water but the Charles River; I
used to do it pretty regularly when I lived in Massachusetts. If I
wanted to see the sea I'd go to Salisbury or Cape Cod, not Cambridge
or Boston.
Post by J. Clarke
And does _seeing_ the sea mean _knowing_ the sea? I wouldn't claim to
_know_ the sea and I've felt it tossing around a 2000 ton ship under
me while green water came across the bow well aft of the forward
turrent.
I'm not sure anyone who hasn't taken a small boat out in a variety of
weather really _knows_ the sea.
My grandfather was the engineer on the Eppleton Hall, a refurbished
1914 River Tyne paddlewheel tug that was delivered from the UK to
San Francisco's Maritime Museum by steaming across the Atlantic.
Scott Newhall's book on the trip is an upbeat tale of grand adventure.
Something I only learned in 2014 is that Pop spent the trip extremely
concerned about the risks involved, because a number of the crew were
minors and it would be sad were they to die young in a tug making a
journey for which it was manifestly not designed.
Something that never came up on the Tyne was that open ocean storms
could drive water up through the toilet with a surprising amount of
force....
Huh. MY grandfather was the carpenter's mate on one of the last
sail-powered freighters, doing the Liverpool-New Zealand run; can't
remember the ship's name. He saw there was no future in wooden ships
and instead of blowing his money on whores the way a proper British
sailor was supposed to, used it to get an engineering degree from the
University of Edinburgh and went back to sea as a ship's engineer.
Apparently the cliche of Scottish ships' engineers does have some
basis in fact.

Anyway, my grandmother made him give up his career as a sailor and get
a nice safe job on land, so he was working in Halifax shipyard at the
time of the 1917 explosion. Fortunately, he was in Montreal ordering
supplies that day, or I wouldn't exist, but everyone he knew on this
side of the Atlantic (except my grandmother, who had accompanied him
to Montreal) died in the blast.

The shipyard was gone, though, so they moved to Baltimore for work,
which is why my mother wasn't Canadian.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Tom Derringer & the Steam-Powered Saurians.
James Nicoll
2021-05-24 01:17:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 21 May 2021 22:07:24 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
Post by Kevrob
How do you live in Amherst, MA and never travel the 90 mi to
Boston or the 80 mi to Providence? They had trains. Lady was?
obsessed with the sea, but couldn't book a week on "the Irish
Riviera?" (Probably wasn't called that, yet.)
She and her sister did visit Phila and Wash, DC, once. There
were train routes that would avoid the seaside. They did take
a steamboat on the Potomac.
The Potomac is emphatically not "the sea."
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Kevrob
Also, Emily went to Cambridge Ma
for consultation with an eye doctor. If she had gone down to Boston
Harbor, could she have seen the sea?
Not really, except in a technical sense. The harbor is pretty
enclosed, not much like open ocean. It's also entirely possible to
visit Cambridge and not see any body of water but the Charles River; I
used to do it pretty regularly when I lived in Massachusetts. If I
wanted to see the sea I'd go to Salisbury or Cape Cod, not Cambridge
or Boston.
Post by J. Clarke
And does _seeing_ the sea mean _knowing_ the sea? I wouldn't claim to
_know_ the sea and I've felt it tossing around a 2000 ton ship under
me while green water came across the bow well aft of the forward
turrent.
I'm not sure anyone who hasn't taken a small boat out in a variety of
weather really _knows_ the sea.
My grandfather was the engineer on the Eppleton Hall, a refurbished
1914 River Tyne paddlewheel tug that was delivered from the UK to
San Francisco's Maritime Museum by steaming across the Atlantic.
Scott Newhall's book on the trip is an upbeat tale of grand adventure.
Something I only learned in 2014 is that Pop spent the trip extremely
concerned about the risks involved, because a number of the crew were
minors and it would be sad were they to die young in a tug making a
journey for which it was manifestly not designed.
Something that never came up on the Tyne was that open ocean storms
could drive water up through the toilet with a surprising amount of
force....
Huh. MY grandfather was the carpenter's mate on one of the last
sail-powered freighters, doing the Liverpool-New Zealand run; can't
remember the ship's name. He saw there was no future in wooden ships
and instead of blowing his money on whores the way a proper British
sailor was supposed to, used it to get an engineering degree from the
University of Edinburgh and went back to sea as a ship's engineer.
Apparently the cliche of Scottish ships' engineers does have some
basis in fact.
Anyway, my grandmother made him give up his career as a sailor and get
a nice safe job on land, so he was working in Halifax shipyard at the
time of the 1917 explosion. Fortunately, he was in Montreal ordering
supplies that day, or I wouldn't exist, but everyone he knew on this
side of the Atlantic (except my grandmother, who had accompanied him
to Montreal) died in the blast.
The shipyard was gone, though, so they moved to Baltimore for work,
which is why my mother wasn't Canadian.
Surviving calamity by being somewhere else is a powerful technique.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
James Nicoll
2021-05-24 01:31:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by James Nicoll
My grandfather was the engineer on the Eppleton Hall, a refurbished
1914 River Tyne paddlewheel tug that was delivered from the UK to
San Francisco's Maritime Museum by steaming across the Atlantic.
Scott Newhall's book on the trip is an upbeat tale of grand adventure.
Something I only learned in 2014 is that Pop spent the trip extremely
concerned about the risks involved, because a number of the crew were
minors and it would be sad were they to die young in a tug making a
journey for which it was manifestly not designed.
Something that never came up on the Tyne was that open ocean storms
could drive water up through the toilet with a surprising amount of
force....
Huh. MY grandfather was the carpenter's mate on one of the last
sail-powered freighters, doing the Liverpool-New Zealand run; can't
remember the ship's name. He saw there was no future in wooden ships
and instead of blowing his money on whores the way a proper British
sailor was supposed to, used it to get an engineering degree from the
University of Edinburgh and went back to sea as a ship's engineer.
Apparently the cliche of Scottish ships' engineers does have some
basis in fact.
My other grandfather served on a USN sail ship in WWI. Well, just post WWI.
I can't imagine the USN was keen on sail craft that late but they had
a reason to assign the ships they did. It was an interesting trip. I think
I have the report somewhere...

Ah, here.

ND: Rdb.
File No. 133-G

Base Eighteen
9 February 1919

From: Commanding Officer RED ROSE
To: Secretary of the Navy.
Via : Force Commander.
Commanding Officer, U.S.Naval Bases 17 and 18
Commander Minesweeping Detachment.

Subject: Strachan P.J. Q.M. 2c USNRF -- Recommendation
For Navy Cross and advancement in rating .

1) In accordance with instructions from Force Commander, two British
sailing smacks were obtained from the Admiralty for conducting experimental
minesweeping in the North Sea Barrage to ascertain the effectiveness of these
in field. Due to the late delivery of the vessels it was not possible to fit
them out and carry on the experiments until after the armistice had been signed.
On account of the peculiar sensitiveness of the American Mark V1 Mine, considerable
doubt was expressed whether it would be possible for any type of vessel to cross
the minefield without being destroyed, even if the vessel itself were protected.
The possibility of adjacent mines countermining was considered a grave source of
danger to any vessel.

2) The two vessels supplied by the Admiralty were Lowestoft fishing smacks,
ketch rigged, sixty-nine feet overall. They were fitted out at Base Eighteen
with crews of picked men who had volunteered for this work. The drifter Red
Fern was received in very good condition, but the other vessel RED ROSE was
extremely old, the timbers rotted and the hull leaking badly. It is understood
that this vessel had been sunk for approximately three months and had been
raised sometime prior to sending her to Inverness for experimental purposes.

3) The vessels got underway on 21 December 1918 and were towed to the minefield
where they made sail on 22 December 1918, put out the sweep and set course to cross
the minefield. The minefield laid by Mine Squadron One on 19 August 1918 was crossed
and recrossed four times, resulting in exploding six mines., two of which were so
close astern of the RED ROSE that the water thrown up was blown aboard that vessel.
The explosion also caused considerable additional leakage which necessitated keeping
the pumps going approximately fifty percent of the time to keep the hull free of
water. By three o'clock the wind had freshened to force six, with the barometer
still falling rapidly and a bad sea coming on. The sweep was cut adrift and the
vessels stood off to the southward to get clear of the minefield before dark.
At 9:00 PM a gale was blowing and an extremely heavy sea which made it necessary
for the RED ROSE to heave to under a storm jib and triple- reefed mizzen. The
storm was increasing in violence until it began to appear doubtful whether it
would be possible to keep the ship afloat until the weather abated.

4) At about 2:00 AM the main topmast ,which was carrying no sails snapped and hung
about half way down the mast, suspended by the topsail halyards.This mast suspended
in this fashion was whipping about wildly, striking the sail and rigging violently,
with grave danger of carrying away the headsail as well as the shrouds and other
rigging attached to the mast. The only solution was to go aloft and cut it adrift.
This involved climbing the shrouds while the topmast was whipping across them at
intervals of approximately four seconds and with such force that it would have
killed a man had he been struck by it.

P.J. Strachan, quartermaster second class, U.S.Naval Reserve Force, realizing the
situation jumped into the rigging and, watching the mast as it whipped back and
forth across the shrowds finally succeeded in climbing above it and on to the
crosstrees where he cut it free and it fell on deck.

Later on the same night while the Commanding Officer was securing some rigging
which had come adrift a heavy sea broke over the bulwark washing him across the
deck. He would undoubtedly have been carried overboard had it not been for the
assistance of Strachan who caught him and held him until the sea had passed.
During the remainder of this storm and another storm of equal violence, Strachan
displayed the most remarkable courage and seamanship I have ever seen.

4) It is therefore recommended that P.J.Strachan quarter master second class
U.S. Naval Reserve Force be awarded the Navy Cross for most distinguished
service and extraordinary heroism in the line of duty and that he be advanced
to the rating of Chief Quartermaster. It is further requested that a copy of
this letter be attached to his service record.

Commanding Officer Davis
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
J. Clarke
2021-05-24 04:05:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by James Nicoll
My grandfather was the engineer on the Eppleton Hall, a refurbished
1914 River Tyne paddlewheel tug that was delivered from the UK to
San Francisco's Maritime Museum by steaming across the Atlantic.
Scott Newhall's book on the trip is an upbeat tale of grand adventure.
Something I only learned in 2014 is that Pop spent the trip extremely
concerned about the risks involved, because a number of the crew were
minors and it would be sad were they to die young in a tug making a
journey for which it was manifestly not designed.
Something that never came up on the Tyne was that open ocean storms
could drive water up through the toilet with a surprising amount of
force....
Huh. MY grandfather was the carpenter's mate on one of the last
sail-powered freighters, doing the Liverpool-New Zealand run; can't
remember the ship's name. He saw there was no future in wooden ships
and instead of blowing his money on whores the way a proper British
sailor was supposed to, used it to get an engineering degree from the
University of Edinburgh and went back to sea as a ship's engineer.
Apparently the cliche of Scottish ships' engineers does have some
basis in fact.
My other grandfather served on a USN sail ship in WWI. Well, just post WWI.
I can't imagine the USN was keen on sail craft that late but they had
a reason to assign the ships they did. It was an interesting trip. I think
I have the report somewhere...
Ah, here.
ND: Rdb.
File No. 133-G
Base Eighteen
9 February 1919
From: Commanding Officer RED ROSE
To: Secretary of the Navy.
Via : Force Commander.
Commanding Officer, U.S.Naval Bases 17 and 18
Commander Minesweeping Detachment.
Subject: Strachan P.J. Q.M. 2c USNRF -- Recommendation
For Navy Cross and advancement in rating .
1) In accordance with instructions from Force Commander, two British
sailing smacks were obtained from the Admiralty for conducting experimental
minesweeping in the North Sea Barrage to ascertain the effectiveness of these
in field. Due to the late delivery of the vessels it was not possible to fit
them out and carry on the experiments until after the armistice had been signed.
On account of the peculiar sensitiveness of the American Mark V1 Mine, considerable
doubt was expressed whether it would be possible for any type of vessel to cross
the minefield without being destroyed, even if the vessel itself were protected.
The possibility of adjacent mines countermining was considered a grave source of
danger to any vessel.
2) The two vessels supplied by the Admiralty were Lowestoft fishing smacks,
ketch rigged, sixty-nine feet overall. They were fitted out at Base Eighteen
with crews of picked men who had volunteered for this work. The drifter Red
Fern was received in very good condition, but the other vessel RED ROSE was
extremely old, the timbers rotted and the hull leaking badly. It is understood
that this vessel had been sunk for approximately three months and had been
raised sometime prior to sending her to Inverness for experimental purposes.
3) The vessels got underway on 21 December 1918 and were towed to the minefield
where they made sail on 22 December 1918, put out the sweep and set course to cross
the minefield. The minefield laid by Mine Squadron One on 19 August 1918 was crossed
and recrossed four times, resulting in exploding six mines., two of which were so
close astern of the RED ROSE that the water thrown up was blown aboard that vessel.
The explosion also caused considerable additional leakage which necessitated keeping
the pumps going approximately fifty percent of the time to keep the hull free of
water. By three o'clock the wind had freshened to force six, with the barometer
still falling rapidly and a bad sea coming on. The sweep was cut adrift and the
vessels stood off to the southward to get clear of the minefield before dark.
At 9:00 PM a gale was blowing and an extremely heavy sea which made it necessary
for the RED ROSE to heave to under a storm jib and triple- reefed mizzen. The
storm was increasing in violence until it began to appear doubtful whether it
would be possible to keep the ship afloat until the weather abated.
4) At about 2:00 AM the main topmast ,which was carrying no sails snapped and hung
about half way down the mast, suspended by the topsail halyards.This mast suspended
in this fashion was whipping about wildly, striking the sail and rigging violently,
with grave danger of carrying away the headsail as well as the shrouds and other
rigging attached to the mast. The only solution was to go aloft and cut it adrift.
This involved climbing the shrouds while the topmast was whipping across them at
intervals of approximately four seconds and with such force that it would have
killed a man had he been struck by it.
P.J. Strachan, quartermaster second class, U.S.Naval Reserve Force, realizing the
situation jumped into the rigging and, watching the mast as it whipped back and
forth across the shrowds finally succeeded in climbing above it and on to the
crosstrees where he cut it free and it fell on deck.
Later on the same night while the Commanding Officer was securing some rigging
which had come adrift a heavy sea broke over the bulwark washing him across the
deck. He would undoubtedly have been carried overboard had it not been for the
assistance of Strachan who caught him and held him until the sea had passed.
During the remainder of this storm and another storm of equal violence, Strachan
displayed the most remarkable courage and seamanship I have ever seen.
4) It is therefore recommended that P.J.Strachan quarter master second class
U.S. Naval Reserve Force be awarded the Navy Cross for most distinguished
service and extraordinary heroism in the line of duty and that he be advanced
to the rating of Chief Quartermaster. It is further requested that a copy of
this letter be attached to his service record.
Commanding Officer Davis
My Dad served aboard the Gertrude L. Thebaud during her Coast Guard
service <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertrude_L._Thebaud>. Used to
have a model of her given to him by the crew when he transferred to
the Navy and headed for the Pacific.
pete...@gmail.com
2021-05-24 04:20:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
My grandfather was the engineer on the Eppleton Hall, a refurbished
1914 River Tyne paddlewheel tug that was delivered from the UK to
San Francisco's Maritime Museum by steaming across the Atlantic.
Scott Newhall's book on the trip is an upbeat tale of grand adventure.
Something I only learned in 2014 is that Pop spent the trip extremely
concerned about the risks involved, because a number of the crew were
minors and it would be sad were they to die young in a tug making a
journey for which it was manifestly not designed.
Something that never came up on the Tyne was that open ocean storms
could drive water up through the toilet with a surprising amount of
force....
Huh. MY grandfather was the carpenter's mate on one of the last
sail-powered freighters, doing the Liverpool-New Zealand run; can't
remember the ship's name. He saw there was no future in wooden ships
and instead of blowing his money on whores the way a proper British
sailor was supposed to, used it to get an engineering degree from the
University of Edinburgh and went back to sea as a ship's engineer.
Apparently the cliche of Scottish ships' engineers does have some
basis in fact.
My other grandfather served on a USN sail ship in WWI. Well, just post WWI.
I can't imagine the USN was keen on sail craft that late but they had
a reason to assign the ships they did. It was an interesting trip. I think
I have the report somewhere...
Ah, here.
ND: Rdb.
File No. 133-G
Base Eighteen
9 February 1919
From: Commanding Officer RED ROSE
To: Secretary of the Navy.
Via : Force Commander.
Commanding Officer, U.S.Naval Bases 17 and 18
Commander Minesweeping Detachment.
Subject: Strachan P.J. Q.M. 2c USNRF -- Recommendation
For Navy Cross and advancement in rating .
1) In accordance with instructions from Force Commander, two British
sailing smacks were obtained from the Admiralty for conducting experimental
minesweeping in the North Sea Barrage to ascertain the effectiveness of these
in field. Due to the late delivery of the vessels it was not possible to fit
them out and carry on the experiments until after the armistice had been signed.
On account of the peculiar sensitiveness of the American Mark V1 Mine, considerable
doubt was expressed whether it would be possible for any type of vessel to cross
the minefield without being destroyed, even if the vessel itself were protected.
The possibility of adjacent mines countermining was considered a grave source of
danger to any vessel.
2) The two vessels supplied by the Admiralty were Lowestoft fishing smacks,
ketch rigged, sixty-nine feet overall. They were fitted out at Base Eighteen
with crews of picked men who had volunteered for this work. The drifter Red
Fern was received in very good condition, but the other vessel RED ROSE was
extremely old, the timbers rotted and the hull leaking badly. It is understood
that this vessel had been sunk for approximately three months and had been
raised sometime prior to sending her to Inverness for experimental purposes.
3) The vessels got underway on 21 December 1918 and were towed to the minefield
where they made sail on 22 December 1918, put out the sweep and set course to cross
the minefield. The minefield laid by Mine Squadron One on 19 August 1918 was crossed
and recrossed four times, resulting in exploding six mines., two of which were so
close astern of the RED ROSE that the water thrown up was blown aboard that vessel.
The explosion also caused considerable additional leakage which necessitated keeping
the pumps going approximately fifty percent of the time to keep the hull free of
water. By three o'clock the wind had freshened to force six, with the barometer
still falling rapidly and a bad sea coming on. The sweep was cut adrift and the
vessels stood off to the southward to get clear of the minefield before dark.
At 9:00 PM a gale was blowing and an extremely heavy sea which made it necessary
for the RED ROSE to heave to under a storm jib and triple- reefed mizzen. The
storm was increasing in violence until it began to appear doubtful whether it
would be possible to keep the ship afloat until the weather abated.
4) At about 2:00 AM the main topmast ,which was carrying no sails snapped and hung
about half way down the mast, suspended by the topsail halyards.This mast suspended
in this fashion was whipping about wildly, striking the sail and rigging violently,
with grave danger of carrying away the headsail as well as the shrouds and other
rigging attached to the mast. The only solution was to go aloft and cut it adrift.
This involved climbing the shrouds while the topmast was whipping across them at
intervals of approximately four seconds and with such force that it would have
killed a man had he been struck by it.
P.J. Strachan, quartermaster second class, U.S.Naval Reserve Force, realizing the
situation jumped into the rigging and, watching the mast as it whipped back and
forth across the shrowds finally succeeded in climbing above it and on to the
crosstrees where he cut it free and it fell on deck.
Later on the same night while the Commanding Officer was securing some rigging
which had come adrift a heavy sea broke over the bulwark washing him across the
deck. He would undoubtedly have been carried overboard had it not been for the
assistance of Strachan who caught him and held him until the sea had passed.
During the remainder of this storm and another storm of equal violence, Strachan
displayed the most remarkable courage and seamanship I have ever seen.
4) It is therefore recommended that P.J.Strachan quarter master second class
U.S. Naval Reserve Force be awarded the Navy Cross for most distinguished
service and extraordinary heroism in the line of duty and that he be advanced
to the rating of Chief Quartermaster. It is further requested that a copy of
this letter be attached to his service record.
Commanding Officer Davis
My Dad served aboard the Gertrude L. Thebaud during her Coast Guard
service <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertrude_L._Thebaud>. Used to
have a model of her given to him by the crew when he transferred to
the Navy and headed for the Pacific.
I note that Jim Bezos has just acquiered a $500 million sailing yacht.

Unfortunately, it doesn't have a helipad, so he's also bought a support
yacht for that purpose.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/10/business/jeff-bezos-yacht/index.html

Pt
J. Clarke
2021-05-24 10:00:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
My grandfather was the engineer on the Eppleton Hall, a refurbished
1914 River Tyne paddlewheel tug that was delivered from the UK to
San Francisco's Maritime Museum by steaming across the Atlantic.
Scott Newhall's book on the trip is an upbeat tale of grand adventure.
Something I only learned in 2014 is that Pop spent the trip extremely
concerned about the risks involved, because a number of the crew were
minors and it would be sad were they to die young in a tug making a
journey for which it was manifestly not designed.
Something that never came up on the Tyne was that open ocean storms
could drive water up through the toilet with a surprising amount of
force....
Huh. MY grandfather was the carpenter's mate on one of the last
sail-powered freighters, doing the Liverpool-New Zealand run; can't
remember the ship's name. He saw there was no future in wooden ships
and instead of blowing his money on whores the way a proper British
sailor was supposed to, used it to get an engineering degree from the
University of Edinburgh and went back to sea as a ship's engineer.
Apparently the cliche of Scottish ships' engineers does have some
basis in fact.
My other grandfather served on a USN sail ship in WWI. Well, just post WWI.
I can't imagine the USN was keen on sail craft that late but they had
a reason to assign the ships they did. It was an interesting trip. I think
I have the report somewhere...
Ah, here.
ND: Rdb.
File No. 133-G
Base Eighteen
9 February 1919
From: Commanding Officer RED ROSE
To: Secretary of the Navy.
Via : Force Commander.
Commanding Officer, U.S.Naval Bases 17 and 18
Commander Minesweeping Detachment.
Subject: Strachan P.J. Q.M. 2c USNRF -- Recommendation
For Navy Cross and advancement in rating .
1) In accordance with instructions from Force Commander, two British
sailing smacks were obtained from the Admiralty for conducting experimental
minesweeping in the North Sea Barrage to ascertain the effectiveness of these
in field. Due to the late delivery of the vessels it was not possible to fit
them out and carry on the experiments until after the armistice had been signed.
On account of the peculiar sensitiveness of the American Mark V1 Mine, considerable
doubt was expressed whether it would be possible for any type of vessel to cross
the minefield without being destroyed, even if the vessel itself were protected.
The possibility of adjacent mines countermining was considered a grave source of
danger to any vessel.
2) The two vessels supplied by the Admiralty were Lowestoft fishing smacks,
ketch rigged, sixty-nine feet overall. They were fitted out at Base Eighteen
with crews of picked men who had volunteered for this work. The drifter Red
Fern was received in very good condition, but the other vessel RED ROSE was
extremely old, the timbers rotted and the hull leaking badly. It is understood
that this vessel had been sunk for approximately three months and had been
raised sometime prior to sending her to Inverness for experimental purposes.
3) The vessels got underway on 21 December 1918 and were towed to the minefield
where they made sail on 22 December 1918, put out the sweep and set course to cross
the minefield. The minefield laid by Mine Squadron One on 19 August 1918 was crossed
and recrossed four times, resulting in exploding six mines., two of which were so
close astern of the RED ROSE that the water thrown up was blown aboard that vessel.
The explosion also caused considerable additional leakage which necessitated keeping
the pumps going approximately fifty percent of the time to keep the hull free of
water. By three o'clock the wind had freshened to force six, with the barometer
still falling rapidly and a bad sea coming on. The sweep was cut adrift and the
vessels stood off to the southward to get clear of the minefield before dark.
At 9:00 PM a gale was blowing and an extremely heavy sea which made it necessary
for the RED ROSE to heave to under a storm jib and triple- reefed mizzen. The
storm was increasing in violence until it began to appear doubtful whether it
would be possible to keep the ship afloat until the weather abated.
4) At about 2:00 AM the main topmast ,which was carrying no sails snapped and hung
about half way down the mast, suspended by the topsail halyards.This mast suspended
in this fashion was whipping about wildly, striking the sail and rigging violently,
with grave danger of carrying away the headsail as well as the shrouds and other
rigging attached to the mast. The only solution was to go aloft and cut it adrift.
This involved climbing the shrouds while the topmast was whipping across them at
intervals of approximately four seconds and with such force that it would have
killed a man had he been struck by it.
P.J. Strachan, quartermaster second class, U.S.Naval Reserve Force, realizing the
situation jumped into the rigging and, watching the mast as it whipped back and
forth across the shrowds finally succeeded in climbing above it and on to the
crosstrees where he cut it free and it fell on deck.
Later on the same night while the Commanding Officer was securing some rigging
which had come adrift a heavy sea broke over the bulwark washing him across the
deck. He would undoubtedly have been carried overboard had it not been for the
assistance of Strachan who caught him and held him until the sea had passed.
During the remainder of this storm and another storm of equal violence, Strachan
displayed the most remarkable courage and seamanship I have ever seen.
4) It is therefore recommended that P.J.Strachan quarter master second class
U.S. Naval Reserve Force be awarded the Navy Cross for most distinguished
service and extraordinary heroism in the line of duty and that he be advanced
to the rating of Chief Quartermaster. It is further requested that a copy of
this letter be attached to his service record.
Commanding Officer Davis
My Dad served aboard the Gertrude L. Thebaud during her Coast Guard
service <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertrude_L._Thebaud>. Used to
have a model of her given to him by the crew when he transferred to
the Navy and headed for the Pacific.
I note that Jim Bezos has just acquiered a $500 million sailing yacht.
Unfortunately, it doesn't have a helipad, so he's also bought a support
yacht for that purpose.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/10/business/jeff-bezos-yacht/index.html
Shows Bezos for the piker he is. If Elon Musk ever has a yacht, it's
going to be a _space_ yacht. Bezos could be there but he's too busy
trying to find a way to suck at the government teat.
Robert Carnegie
2021-05-23 23:55:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 21 May 2021 22:07:24 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
Post by Kevrob
How do you live in Amherst, MA and never travel the 90 mi to
Boston or the 80 mi to Providence? They had trains. Lady was?
obsessed with the sea, but couldn't book a week on "the Irish
Riviera?" (Probably wasn't called that, yet.)
She and her sister did visit Phila and Wash, DC, once. There
were train routes that would avoid the seaside. They did take
a steamboat on the Potomac.
The Potomac is emphatically not "the sea."
Post by Kevrob
Also, Emily went to Cambridge Ma
for consultation with an eye doctor. If she had gone down to Boston
Harbor, could she have seen the sea?
Not really, except in a technical sense. The harbor is pretty
enclosed, not much like open ocean. It's also entirely possible to
visit Cambridge and not see any body of water but the Charles River; I
used to do it pretty regularly when I lived in Massachusetts. If I
wanted to see the sea I'd go to Salisbury or Cape Cod, not Cambridge
or Boston.
And does _seeing_ the sea mean _knowing_ the sea? I wouldn't claim to
_know_ the sea and I've felt it tossing around a 2000 ton ship under
me while green water came across the bow well aft of the forward
turrent.
I'm not sure anyone who hasn't taken a small boat out in a variety of
weather really _knows_ the sea.
My grandfather was the engineer on the Eppleton Hall, a refurbished
1914 River Tyne paddlewheel tug that was delivered from the UK to
San Francisco's Maritime Museum by steaming across the Atlantic.
Scott Newhall's book on the trip is an upbeat tale of grand adventure.
Something I only learned in 2014 is that Pop spent the trip extremely
concerned about the risks involved, because a number of the crew were
minors and it would be sad were they to die young in a tug making a
journey for which it was manifestly not designed.
Something that never came up on the Tyne was that open ocean storms
could drive water up through the toilet with a surprising amount of
force....
One man vanished clean away...
Robert Woodward
2021-05-24 05:14:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article
(Snip of digression commenting on boats and the ocean)
My grandfather was the engineer on the Eppleton Hall, a refurbished
1914 River Tyne paddlewheel tug that was delivered from the UK to
San Francisco's Maritime Museum by steaming across the Atlantic.
Scott Newhall's book on the trip is an upbeat tale of grand adventure.
Something I only learned in 2014 is that Pop spent the trip extremely
concerned about the risks involved, because a number of the crew were
minors and it would be sad were they to die young in a tug making a
journey for which it was manifestly not designed.
Wikipedia has an article on this,
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eppleton_Hall_(1914)>.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Paul S Person
2021-05-22 16:22:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
Post by Kevrob
How do you live in Amherst, MA and never travel the 90 mi to
Boston or the 80 mi to Providence? They had trains. Lady was?
obsessed with the sea, but couldn't book a week on "the Irish
Riviera?" (Probably wasn't called that, yet.)
She and her sister did visit Phila and Wash, DC, once. There
were train routes that would avoid the seaside. They did take
a steamboat on the Potomac. Also, Emily went to Cambridge Ma
for consultation with an eye doctor. If she had gone down to Boston
Harbor, could she have seen the sea?
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
Yet know I how the heather looks,
[snip]
[quote]
"....and Vinnie and I say masses for poor Irish boys souls. So far as I am
concerned I should like to have you kill some - there are so many now,
there is no room for the Americans, and I cant think of a death that would
be more after my mind than scientific destruction, scholastic dissolution,
there's something lofty in it, it smacks of going up!"..."
[/quote] - Letter to Austin Dickinson
http://archive.emilydickinson.org/correspondence/austin/l43.html
Anti-Irish bigot!
She'd fit right in with the Anglo-Saxon Caucus the Reprentative from
QAnon was trying to help others form a while back.

Very traditional. In some circles.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
William Hyde
2021-05-22 20:57:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
Post by Kevrob
How do you live in Amherst, MA and never travel the 90 mi to
Boston or the 80 mi to Providence? They had trains. Lady was?
obsessed with the sea, but couldn't book a week on "the Irish
Riviera?" (Probably wasn't called that, yet.)
She and her sister did visit Phila and Wash, DC, once. There
were train routes that would avoid the seaside. They did take
a steamboat on the Potomac. Also, Emily went to Cambridge Ma
for consultation with an eye doctor. If she had gone down to Boston
Harbor, could she have seen the sea?
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
Yet know I how the heather looks,
[snip]
[quote]
"....and Vinnie and I say masses for poor Irish boys souls. So far as I am
concerned I should like to have you kill some - there are so many now,
there is no room for the Americans, and I cant think of a death that would
be more after my mind than scientific destruction, scholastic dissolution,
there's something lofty in it, it smacks of going up!"..."
[/quote] - Letter to Austin Dickinson
http://archive.emilydickinson.org/correspondence/austin/l43.html
Anti-Irish bigot!
She'd fit right in with the Anglo-Saxon Caucus the Reprentative from
QAnon was trying to help others form a while back.
Most people who use the term seem to have no idea what "Anglo Saxon" actually means. MTG probably thinks the Irish are Anglo-Saxon.

William Hyde
Paul S Person
2021-05-23 16:34:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 22 May 2021 13:57:17 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
Post by Kevrob
How do you live in Amherst, MA and never travel the 90 mi to
Boston or the 80 mi to Providence? They had trains. Lady was?
obsessed with the sea, but couldn't book a week on "the Irish
Riviera?" (Probably wasn't called that, yet.)
She and her sister did visit Phila and Wash, DC, once. There
were train routes that would avoid the seaside. They did take
a steamboat on the Potomac. Also, Emily went to Cambridge Ma
for consultation with an eye doctor. If she had gone down to Boston
Harbor, could she have seen the sea?
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
Yet know I how the heather looks,
[snip]
[quote]
"....and Vinnie and I say masses for poor Irish boys souls. So far as I am
concerned I should like to have you kill some - there are so many now,
there is no room for the Americans, and I cant think of a death that would
be more after my mind than scientific destruction, scholastic dissolution,
there's something lofty in it, it smacks of going up!"..."
[/quote] - Letter to Austin Dickinson
http://archive.emilydickinson.org/correspondence/austin/l43.html
Anti-Irish bigot!
She'd fit right in with the Anglo-Saxon Caucus the Reprentative from
QAnon was trying to help others form a while back.
Most people who use the term seem to have no idea what "Anglo Saxon" actually means. MTG probably thinks the Irish are Anglo-Saxon.
I suspect that the alt-right and QAnon (and so the Member from QAnon)
are well aware of what it means. And who is not included, however
"white" their skin may be.

Trump and his base, OTOH, may very well not have a clue.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Jonathan
2021-05-23 14:34:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kevrob
Leave the woo out and I'm fine with emergent systems, et al.
The tub-thumping for woo is what annoys. Try keeping the
chocolate out of the peanut butter.
Science and philosophy are not apples and oranges.
You are term-shifting, there. Woo =/ philosophy.
Remember that science used to be called "natural
philosophy" and the "divide" between the two boils down
to a branch of the discipline growing so that it set up shop
on its own. The same goes for theology, but for those of
us unconvinced of the existence of deities, that "branch of
knowledge" belongs out on its own, with other speculative
modes of thought. It's mythology and unadmitted fiction.
So you need to ask yourself who it is that supports
the notion that deities are some form of a
wise old man out there waving a magic wand.

That's what religions teach to...children or
to those unable to handle philosophical concepts.

That is why I reference religious philosophy instead
of what's preached to kids in Sunday school.
Which is what you seem to base your opinions
of religions.

Have you even investigated how the major religions
define God? If so please give that definition
here and now to show you have more than a child's
understanding of religious philosophy?

Else your claim of religion as mythological hooey
is in error.

Has it occurred to you most of the best minds
this planet has produced over the last
few....thousand years have vetted religious
philosophy endlessly? As a result it's mostly
bulletproof, not the fictional mythology which
this ng specializes in.

Here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia says
about God and those that take....literally
descriptions of God. Which is apparently what
most science-minded people thoughtlessly do.

Written in...1909 I might add.


(ii) Yet sometimes men are led by a natural tendency to think
and speak of God as if He were a magnified creature — more
especially a magnified man — and this is known as anthropomorphism.
Thus God is said to see or hear, as if He had physical organs,
or to be angry or sorry, as if subject to human passions: and
this perfectly legitimate and more or less unavoidable use of
metaphor is often quite unfairly alleged to prove that the
strictly Infinite is unthinkable and unknowable, and that
it is really a finite anthropomorphic God that men worship.

But whatever truth there may be in this charge as applied
to Polytheistic religions, or even to the Theistic beliefs
of rude and uncultured minds, it is untrue and unjust when
directed against philosophical Theism.

The same reasons that justify and recommend the use of
metaphorical language in other connections justify and
recommended it here, but no Theist of *average intelligence*
ever thinks of understanding literally the metaphors he
applies, or hears applied by others, to God, any more
than he means to speak literally when he calls a
brave man a lion, or a cunning one a fox.

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
They are complimentary, as in one begins where
the other ends.
To believe science can provide all the answers is the
great delusion of our times.
For instance, physics still can't predict the
...eh hum.../three/ body problem without doing
absurd cartwheels around reality.
And to think such a science can unravel nature
with it's countless random events displays
a shocking level of unbridled Faith that
would cause even the most fervent Bible thumper
to blush.
I certainly think moral problems are the province of a branch
of philosophy: Ethics.
How about a morality based in science instead?
That is what complexity science, my hobby, can do.
It's a method of understanding nature that can
bridge conventional science and religion into
a...single view...consistent with BOTH.

And as such can be a transformative new scientific
method, ending the age-old conflicts between
the two opposing world views.


Ethics and Complexity: Why standard ethical frameworks
cannot cope with socio-technological change

"Ethics needs its Copernican revolution to be able to
deal with all moral agents, including not only humans,
but also artificial intelligent agents, robots or
organizations of all sizes. We argue that embracing
the complexity worldview is the first step towards
this revolution, and that standard ethical frameworks
are still entrenched in the Newtonian worldview."

https://comdig.unam.mx/2019/11/14/ethics-and-complexity-why-standard-ethical-frameworks-cannot-cope-with-socio-technological-change/



Law, Ethics, and Complexity: Complexity
Theory and the Normative Reconstruction
of Law

Julian Webb
University of Westminster, London, U.K

"Lastly, I suggest there is scope within complexity theory
to acknowledge and develop the scope of the ethical itself".
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/216928305.pdf
Post by Kevrob
One learns about religion because it has influenced our history,
and believers in religions continue to be affect us today. One
may admire the poetry, the repositories of custom and customary
law and find the
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kevrob
I think various modern pharmaceuticals, if taken in appropriate
doses, as prescribed, might have helped Ms Dickinson.
Proof is a poor substitute for abstract thought.
Only via analogy can reality be clearly seen.
We can't see "reality" - just take in sensory experiences
for our brains to interpret. That's not to say there aren't
real things, just that as physical beings we have limitations
on gathering data before visualizing the cosmic all.
Post by Jonathan
I NEVER saw a moor,
I never saw the sea;
How do you live in Amherst, MA and never travel the 90 mi to
Boston or the 80 mi to Providence. They had trains. Lady was
obsessed with the sea, bu couldn't book a week on "the Irish
Riviera?" (Probably wasn't called that, yet.)
Post by Jonathan
Yet know I how the heather looks,
Apparently based on no data at all. Photography was
a new art. Had she seen B&W pictures, even?
She had the entire concept of self organization
/intuitively/ figured out 150 years before it's
discovery.

Complexity Science is defined as....

"Critically interacting systems self-organize
to produce potentially evolving structures
exhibiting a hierarchy of emergent system
properties."
https://naturalorder.info/self-organizingsystems.html#1.3


The primary concepts are...


This process is universal to all things.
The process is internal, and follows a
power law (inverse square law) behavior.

Critically interacting, the basis of chaos
theory is that order and disorder critically
interact, or stand at the transition point
between the two, they compete with each other.

Edge of chaos: critical behavior pushes the system
towards this ideal organizing state.

Natural selection merely fine-tunes what the
internal process of self organization has
already created.

Self-organized criticality (SOC) the ability of a system
to evolve in such a way as to approach a critical point
and then maintain itself at that point.


It's ALL HERE, and even more remarkably it
even sound nice rolling off the tongue.
This is a level of genius that's hard
to match.



Growth of Man—like Growth of Nature (universal)
Gravitates within (inverse square)
Atmosphere, and Sun endorse it (selection only fine-tunes)
Bit it stir—alone (internal, independent)

Each—its difficult Ideal (Self-organized criticality)
Must achieve—Itself
Through the solitary prowess
Of a Silent Life

Effort—is the sole condition
Patience of Itself
Patience of opposing forces (order-chaos competition)
And intact Belief

Looking on—is the Department (again, independent of environment)
Of its Audience
But Transaction—is assisted
By no Countenance
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
And what a wave must be.
The sea, again, though perhaps she'd seen waves
in a lake or river. I grew up on an island, so
"has never seen the sea" would make me think of
someone loving in Nebraska, or thereabouts.
Post by Jonathan
I never spoke with God,
Nor visited in heaven;
Yet certain am I of the spot
As if the chart were given.
Imagination is a wonderful thing.
I "know" what dragons look like, too.
That doesn't mean there are any.
That's what fairy stories and SF are for.
Why do you think I'm here? To bring some
sanity, some science, to an ng devoted
to shear fantasy.

Which is what you accuse religions to be.

Perhaps it's modern science that's lost the
ability to tell reality from fantasy?
When religious philosophy had it right
from Day One, in their belief that 'God'
is an inherent, and apparently mysterious
creative force that appears out of nowhere...

Tell me, how is that different from the
modern definition of emergence below?


Emergence Taxonomy

"The process of emergence deals with the fundamental question:
“how does an entity come into existence?”

In a process of emergence we observe something (for instance
the appearance of order or organization) and ask how this
is possible, since we assume causality: every effect
should have a cause.

The surprising aspect in a process of emergence is
the observation of an *effect without an apparent cause*.
Although the process of emergence might look mysterious,
there is nothing mystical, magical or unscientific
about it.

Because true emergent properties are irreducible,
they can not be destroyed or decomposed – they
appear or disappear instead. In this sense
they may seem to be indestructible and are potentially
the only things that really exist, but if they are
examined too closely - if we take a deeper look
at the components of the system - they do not
exist at all and often vanish into nothing."
https://arxiv.org/ftp/nlin/papers/0506/0506028.pdf


Religion just didn't know why, but we do now
via the modern concept of emergence.

God is the ultimate emergent property, which
is the truth, btw.

And defining God in that way makes the concept of God
/entirely consistent/ with religion AND science.

And that's a big deal imho.

Science finding God, that is.

Having a purely mathematical basis for believing
in something greater than ourselves for our
creation.

It's a big deal.
--
https://twitter.com/Non_Linear1
Paul S Person
2021-05-17 16:28:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jonathan
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Andrew Love
Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
Sylvia Engdahl's "This Star Shall Abide" fits that pattern as I recall.
Without Earth there is no human race.
How can we expect to make it anywhere else
if we can't make it on the planet with the
most bounteous natural beauty and ideal
conditions...POSSIBLE?
The film /Titan A.E./ deals with these issues.
That's fantasy. It assumes FTL travel is as common
as the countless alien civilizations that have it.
No, it is Science Fiction.

And it deals with the issues you raise, clearly showing one way in
which the Human Race /could/ exist without the planet Earth.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it wrong.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-18 00:21:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Andrew Love
Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
Sylvia Engdahl's "This Star Shall Abide" fits that pattern as I recall.
Without Earth there is no human race.
How can we expect to make it anywhere else
if we can't make it on the planet with the
most bounteous natural beauty and ideal
conditions...POSSIBLE?
The film /Titan A.E./ deals with these issues.
That's fantasy. It assumes FTL travel is as common
as the countless alien civilizations that have it.
No, it is Science Fiction.
And it deals with the issues you raise, clearly showing one way in
which the Human Race /could/ exist without the planet Earth.
Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it wrong.
[T]here would appear to be a middle-of-the-road
definition of any term that is generally accepted by the group,
and definitions further out in one direction or another that
are held by a few, and this will generate discussion. The
discussion can stop short of "lambasting" if both sides try to
keep their language moderate and their tone polite, as, "Well, I
just don't consider x an example of Y," and "Well, you're going
to get a fair amount of disagreement then, because most of us
do."
The context was a fairly one-sided debate over whether Sword and
Sorcery was an example of Fantasy.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2021-05-21 16:29:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Andrew Love
Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
Sylvia Engdahl's "This Star Shall Abide" fits that pattern as I recall.
Without Earth there is no human race.
How can we expect to make it anywhere else
if we can't make it on the planet with the
most bounteous natural beauty and ideal
conditions...POSSIBLE?
The film /Titan A.E./ deals with these issues.
That's fantasy. It assumes FTL travel is as common
as the countless alien civilizations that have it.
No, it is Science Fiction.
And it deals with the issues you raise, clearly showing one way in
which the Human Race /could/ exist without the planet Earth.
Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it wrong.
[T]here would appear to be a middle-of-the-road
definition of any term that is generally accepted by the group,
and definitions further out in one direction or another that
are held by a few, and this will generate discussion. The
discussion can stop short of "lambasting" if both sides try to
keep their language moderate and their tone polite, as, "Well, I
just don't consider x an example of Y," and "Well, you're going
to get a fair amount of disagreement then, because most of us
do."
The context was a fairly one-sided debate over whether Sword and
Sorcery was an example of Fantasy.
That's actually a good attitude to take.

I would point out that the reason he gives for it being fantasy is the
common use of FTL travel, which is a staple of Science Fiction,
whether he likes it or not. As are the countless alien civilizations.
Although there we have something similar in Fantasy as well, although
generally not located on different planets. Different ethereal planes,
perhaps.

A good example of the difference is the usual view of Norse mythology
(Thor, Odin, Loki, etc), which is redolent of fantasy and firmly
located on Earth, and the version of it in the Marvel Avengers movies
(and, presumably, comics as well) -- where Bifrost becomes an FTL
portal and each "realm" becomes a separate planet and there is a /lot/
of really advanced technology (AKA "magic" to mere Earthlings, no
doubt).
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Jonathan
2021-05-19 21:52:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Andrew Love
Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
Sylvia Engdahl's "This Star Shall Abide" fits that pattern as I recall.
Without Earth there is no human race.
How can we expect to make it anywhere else
if we can't make it on the planet with the
most bounteous natural beauty and ideal
conditions...POSSIBLE?
The film /Titan A.E./ deals with these issues.
That's fantasy. It assumes FTL travel is as common
as the countless alien civilizations that have it.
No, it is Science Fiction.
And it deals with the issues you raise, clearly showing one way in
which the Human Race /could/ exist without the planet Earth.
Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it wrong.
Let's explore the idea of humanity colonizing elsewhere.

How many people would you estimate are required to
build a sustainable colony? A colony that could
evolve and adapt like a naturally evolving system
such as an old growth forest?

Because without that ability to evolve and adapt
the system would become like a commercial forest
or like a dictatorship. And both of those systems
are mathematically doomed to extinction from an
inevitable cycle of ever increasing resistance
met by ever increasing repression.

And that's true whether it's a dictator vs rebels
or disease vs cure.

Mathematically for a complex system a requirement
is there are more variables that can be accounted
for directly, but not enough to be accounted for
statistically.

At what point would a command structure lose control
over the individuals under it's command, so that
order is emergent, not designed?

I'm going to take a swing and say at least 50,000
if not a million.

Smaller scale colonies are doomed. And colonies
of that scale require vast amounts of resources
a place like Mars can't provide.
--
https://twitter.com/Non_Linear1
Des
2021-05-09 10:58:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
_The Steerswoman_ by Rosemary Kirstein is one example. The background
for the _Pillars of Reality_ series by Jack Campbell (John G. Hemry) is
another (in this case, the crew violated their mission orders). David
Weber's _Safehold_ series is a variant, where the passengers were in
suspended animation (but rather drastic editing of their memories took
place, also in violation of mission orders). I don't believe that _A
Gift from Earth_ by Larry Niven qualifies (the crew ruled with a heavy
hand, but I don't remember suppression of basic knowledge appearing in
the novel).
What other titles can people list?
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
ã-----------------------------------------------------
"Non-Stop", 1958, Brian Aldiss
Jonathan
2021-05-11 16:02:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 5/7/2021 12:56 AM, Robert Woodward wrote:



Oh, I thought you were talking last republican conference~
Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
_The Steerswoman_ by Rosemary Kirstein is one example. The background
for the _Pillars of Reality_ series by Jack Campbell (John G. Hemry) is
another (in this case, the crew violated their mission orders). David
Weber's _Safehold_ series is a variant, where the passengers were in
suspended animation (but rather drastic editing of their memories took
place, also in violation of mission orders). I don't believe that _A
Gift from Earth_ by Larry Niven qualifies (the crew ruled with a heavy
hand, but I don't remember suppression of basic knowledge appearing in
the novel).
What other titles can people list?
--
https://twitter.com/Non_Linear1
Kevrob
2021-05-13 06:20:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jonathan
Oh, I thought you were talking last republican conference~
Is this meant to reference the last Republican National
Convention? National party conventions in the US that
do the nominating aren't called conferences.
Post by Jonathan
I am thinking of colonies.......
Uggh! Top-posting!
--
Kevin R
Jonathan
2021-05-15 13:47:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
Oh, I thought you were talking last republican conference~
Is this meant to reference the last Republican National
Convention? National party conventions in the US that
do the nominating aren't called conferences.
No, it was about the annual conference
where all the republicans gather, this year
is was all about finding ways to keep the
American people believing Trump won the election.

Or, to keep the Trumpsters STUPID.

The one chaired by Cheney where she...refused
to invite Trump. Don't you remember that
incredible snub?


GOP Leaders Clash on Trump at Annual Retreat

“We have to learn the lessons from 2020. It’s one of the
reasons why it’s so damaging to perpetuate the notion
that in 2020, the election was stolen,said Ms. Cheney
an interview.”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-leaders-clash-on-trump-at-annual-retreat-11619563002
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
I am thinking of colonies.......
Uggh! Top-posting!
--
https://twitter.com/Non_Linear1
Paul S Person
2021-05-15 16:19:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
Oh, I thought you were talking last republican conference~
Is this meant to reference the last Republican National
Convention? National party conventions in the US that
do the nominating aren't called conferences.
No, it was about the annual conference
where all the republicans gather, this year
is was all about finding ways to keep the
American people believing Trump won the election.
Or, to keep the Trumpsters STUPID.
The one chaired by Cheney where she...refused
to invite Trump. Don't you remember that
incredible snub?
GOP Leaders Clash on Trump at Annual Retreat
“We have to learn the lessons from 2020. It’s one of the
reasons why it’s so damaging to perpetuate the notion
that in 2020, the election was stolen,said Ms. Cheney
an interview.”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-leaders-clash-on-trump-at-annual-retreat-11619563002
Well, she's out. The Representative from Suck-up is in.

I suppose that's a better choice than the Representative from QAnon.

The Rest of Us will wave a fond farewell to the Republican Party, as
it slowly sinks into the West.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-15 16:38:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
Oh, I thought you were talking last republican conference~
Is this meant to reference the last Republican National
Convention? National party conventions in the US that
do the nominating aren't called conferences.
No, it was about the annual conference
where all the republicans gather, this year
is was all about finding ways to keep the
American people believing Trump won the election.
Or, to keep the Trumpsters STUPID.
The one chaired by Cheney where she...refused
to invite Trump. Don't you remember that
incredible snub?
GOP Leaders Clash on Trump at Annual Retreat
“We have to learn the lessons from 2020. It’s one of the
reasons why it’s so damaging to perpetuate the notion
that in 2020, the election was stolen,said Ms. Cheney
an interview.”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-leaders-clash-on-trump-at-annual-retreat-11619563002
Well, she's out. The Representative from Suck-up is in.
I suppose that's a better choice than the Representative from QAnon.
The Rest of Us will wave a fond farewell to the Republican Party, as
it slowly sinks into the West.
By "West" I assume you mean places like Arizona, not places like
California. :)

Hal and I have been idly speculating whether the not-so-crazy
Republicans will actually split off from the Trumpists and do a
third party. Since third parties have only thriven once in the
US's history, one of those demi-Republican parties will wither
and die; we don't attempt to predict how long it will take.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Lynn McGuire
2021-05-15 20:54:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
Oh, I thought you were talking last republican conference~
Is this meant to reference the last Republican National
Convention? National party conventions in the US that
do the nominating aren't called conferences.
No, it was about the annual conference
where all the republicans gather, this year
is was all about finding ways to keep the
American people believing Trump won the election.
Or, to keep the Trumpsters STUPID.
The one chaired by Cheney where she...refused
to invite Trump. Don't you remember that
incredible snub?
GOP Leaders Clash on Trump at Annual Retreat
“We have to learn the lessons from 2020. It’s one of the
reasons why it’s so damaging to perpetuate the notion
that in 2020, the election was stolen,said Ms. Cheney
an interview.”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-leaders-clash-on-trump-at-annual-retreat-11619563002
Well, she's out. The Representative from Suck-up is in.
I suppose that's a better choice than the Representative from QAnon.
The Rest of Us will wave a fond farewell to the Republican Party, as
it slowly sinks into the West.
By "West" I assume you mean places like Arizona, not places like
California. :)
Hal and I have been idly speculating whether the not-so-crazy
Republicans will actually split off from the Trumpists and do a
third party. Since third parties have only thriven once in the
US's history, one of those demi-Republican parties will wither
and die; we don't attempt to predict how long it will take.
Then there will be three sides to The War Party.

Lynn
J. Clarke
2021-05-15 22:00:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
Oh, I thought you were talking last republican conference~
Is this meant to reference the last Republican National
Convention? National party conventions in the US that
do the nominating aren't called conferences.
No, it was about the annual conference
where all the republicans gather, this year
is was all about finding ways to keep the
American people believing Trump won the election.
Or, to keep the Trumpsters STUPID.
The one chaired by Cheney where she...refused
to invite Trump. Don't you remember that
incredible snub?
GOP Leaders Clash on Trump at Annual Retreat
?e have to learn the lessons from 2020. It? one of the
reasons why it? so damaging to perpetuate the notion
that in 2020, the election was stolen,said Ms. Cheney
an interview.?
https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-leaders-clash-on-trump-at-annual-retreat-11619563002
Well, she's out. The Representative from Suck-up is in.
I suppose that's a better choice than the Representative from QAnon.
The Rest of Us will wave a fond farewell to the Republican Party, as
it slowly sinks into the West.
By "West" I assume you mean places like Arizona, not places like
California. :)
Hal and I have been idly speculating whether the not-so-crazy
Republicans will actually split off from the Trumpists and do a
third party.
It is my hope that enough not-crazy Democrats will do the same to give
the third party some balance and enough votes to actually matter.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Since third parties have only thriven once in the
US's history, one of those demi-Republican parties will wither
and die; we don't attempt to predict how long it will take.
Paul S Person
2021-05-16 16:13:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 15 May 2021 18:00:38 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
Oh, I thought you were talking last republican conference~
Is this meant to reference the last Republican National
Convention? National party conventions in the US that
do the nominating aren't called conferences.
No, it was about the annual conference
where all the republicans gather, this year
is was all about finding ways to keep the
American people believing Trump won the election.
Or, to keep the Trumpsters STUPID.
The one chaired by Cheney where she...refused
to invite Trump. Don't you remember that
incredible snub?
GOP Leaders Clash on Trump at Annual Retreat
?e have to learn the lessons from 2020. It? one of the
reasons why it? so damaging to perpetuate the notion
that in 2020, the election was stolen,said Ms. Cheney
an interview.?
https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-leaders-clash-on-trump-at-annual-retreat-11619563002
Well, she's out. The Representative from Suck-up is in.
I suppose that's a better choice than the Representative from QAnon.
The Rest of Us will wave a fond farewell to the Republican Party, as
it slowly sinks into the West.
By "West" I assume you mean places like Arizona, not places like
California. :)
Hal and I have been idly speculating whether the not-so-crazy
Republicans will actually split off from the Trumpists and do a
third party.
It is my hope that enough not-crazy Democrats will do the same to give
the third party some balance and enough votes to actually matter.
I would hope that the not-crazy Dems would kick Bernie's friends out
(can't kick Bernie out, he isn't in) and /they/ can form, say, the
"Liberal Party". "Liberal" here being used in the worst possible
sense.

A Conservative Party was sort-of started in 2016 in Utah; perhaps it
could serve as a nucleus for those Republicans who actually /are/
Americans.

Producing a two-party system again. Well, provided the two surviving
major parties (Dem and Con) are willing to talk to each other.

Although it does appear to be a time in which a Unity Party, which is
what you appear to be hoping for in some sense, might work, at least
for a while. The problem is, it could produce a One-Party State, and I
don't really think we want that.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Since third parties have only thriven once in the
US's history, one of those demi-Republican parties will wither
and die; we don't attempt to predict how long it will take.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-16 18:21:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 15 May 2021 18:00:38 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
Oh, I thought you were talking last republican conference~
Is this meant to reference the last Republican National
Convention? National party conventions in the US that
do the nominating aren't called conferences.
No, it was about the annual conference
where all the republicans gather, this year
is was all about finding ways to keep the
American people believing Trump won the election.
Or, to keep the Trumpsters STUPID.
The one chaired by Cheney where she...refused
to invite Trump. Don't you remember that
incredible snub?
GOP Leaders Clash on Trump at Annual Retreat
?e have to learn the lessons from 2020. It? one of the
reasons why it? so damaging to perpetuate the notion
that in 2020, the election was stolen,said Ms. Cheney
an interview.?
https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-leaders-clash-on-trump-at-annual-retreat-11619563002
Well, she's out. The Representative from Suck-up is in.
I suppose that's a better choice than the Representative from QAnon.
The Rest of Us will wave a fond farewell to the Republican Party, as
it slowly sinks into the West.
By "West" I assume you mean places like Arizona, not places like
California. :)
Hal and I have been idly speculating whether the not-so-crazy
Republicans will actually split off from the Trumpists and do a
third party.
It is my hope that enough not-crazy Democrats will do the same to give
the third party some balance and enough votes to actually matter.
I would hope that the not-crazy Dems would kick Bernie's friends out
(can't kick Bernie out, he isn't in) and /they/ can form, say, the
"Liberal Party". "Liberal" here being used in the worst possible
sense.
A Conservative Party was sort-of started in 2016 in Utah; perhaps it
could serve as a nucleus for those Republicans who actually /are/
Americans.
Would you care to give us your definition of "people who actually
*are* Americans"?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2021-05-17 16:34:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 15 May 2021 18:00:38 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
Oh, I thought you were talking last republican conference~
Is this meant to reference the last Republican National
Convention? National party conventions in the US that
do the nominating aren't called conferences.
No, it was about the annual conference
where all the republicans gather, this year
is was all about finding ways to keep the
American people believing Trump won the election.
Or, to keep the Trumpsters STUPID.
The one chaired by Cheney where she...refused
to invite Trump. Don't you remember that
incredible snub?
GOP Leaders Clash on Trump at Annual Retreat
?e have to learn the lessons from 2020. It? one of the
reasons why it? so damaging to perpetuate the notion
that in 2020, the election was stolen,said Ms. Cheney
an interview.?
https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-leaders-clash-on-trump-at-annual-retreat-11619563002
Well, she's out. The Representative from Suck-up is in.
I suppose that's a better choice than the Representative from QAnon.
The Rest of Us will wave a fond farewell to the Republican Party, as
it slowly sinks into the West.
By "West" I assume you mean places like Arizona, not places like
California. :)
Hal and I have been idly speculating whether the not-so-crazy
Republicans will actually split off from the Trumpists and do a
third party.
It is my hope that enough not-crazy Democrats will do the same to give
the third party some balance and enough votes to actually matter.
I would hope that the not-crazy Dems would kick Bernie's friends out
(can't kick Bernie out, he isn't in) and /they/ can form, say, the
"Liberal Party". "Liberal" here being used in the worst possible
sense.
A Conservative Party was sort-of started in 2016 in Utah; perhaps it
could serve as a nucleus for those Republicans who actually /are/
Americans.
Would you care to give us your definition of "people who actually
*are* Americans"?
Pretty much anybody to the left of Trump and his base and to the right
of Bernie and friends. It is a /very/ big tent. With plenty of room
for two major parties, one slightly to the right, the other slightly
to the left.

Which, sadly, excludes a lot of the current Republicans, who appear to
be intent on ensuring that they win every election by simply not
counting votes for anybody else. Because they know darn well that they
can't win any other way.

But not all of them, particularly on the State level, at least in the
executive branch. The legislatures they control (more than a few, but
perhaps not all) are decidedly part of the problem.

Arizona's recount is the Poster Boy of the Republican Party's illness.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Jonathan
2021-05-16 13:48:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
Oh, I thought you were talking last republican conference~
Is this meant to reference the last Republican National
Convention? National party conventions in the US that
do the nominating aren't called conferences.
No, it was about the annual conference
where all the republicans gather, this year
is was all about finding ways to keep the
American people believing Trump won the election.
Or, to keep the Trumpsters STUPID.
The one chaired by Cheney where she...refused
to invite Trump. Don't you remember that
incredible snub?
GOP Leaders Clash on Trump at Annual Retreat
“We have to learn the lessons from 2020. It’s one of the
reasons why it’s so damaging to perpetuate the notion
that in 2020, the election was stolen,said Ms. Cheney
an interview.”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-leaders-clash-on-trump-at-annual-retreat-11619563002
Well, she's out. The Representative from Suck-up is in.
I suppose that's a better choice than the Representative from QAnon.
The Rest of Us will wave a fond farewell to the Republican Party, as
it slowly sinks into the West.
By "West" I assume you mean places like Arizona, not places like
California. :)
Hal and I have been idly speculating whether the not-so-crazy
Republicans will actually split off from the Trumpists and do a
third party. Since third parties have only thriven once in the
US's history, one of those demi-Republican parties will wither
and die; we don't attempt to predict how long it will take.
Let's hope so, keep in mind a third party candidate only
needs to get a few percent to swing the election.
--
https://twitter.com/Non_Linear1
Paul S Person
2021-05-16 16:16:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
Oh, I thought you were talking last republican conference~
Is this meant to reference the last Republican National
Convention? National party conventions in the US that
do the nominating aren't called conferences.
No, it was about the annual conference
where all the republicans gather, this year
is was all about finding ways to keep the
American people believing Trump won the election.
Or, to keep the Trumpsters STUPID.
The one chaired by Cheney where she...refused
to invite Trump. Don't you remember that
incredible snub?
GOP Leaders Clash on Trump at Annual Retreat
“We have to learn the lessons from 2020. It’s one of the
reasons why it’s so damaging to perpetuate the notion
that in 2020, the election was stolen,said Ms. Cheney
an interview.”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-leaders-clash-on-trump-at-annual-retreat-11619563002
Well, she's out. The Representative from Suck-up is in.
I suppose that's a better choice than the Representative from QAnon.
The Rest of Us will wave a fond farewell to the Republican Party, as
it slowly sinks into the West.
By "West" I assume you mean places like Arizona, not places like
California. :)
I was thinking of getting them all on a cruise ship, and watching it
sink in the Pacific.

Or, given their anti-science anti-vaxx anti-mask attitudes, become an
enclosed COVID epidemic all on its own.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hal and I have been idly speculating whether the not-so-crazy
Republicans will actually split off from the Trumpists and do a
third party. Since third parties have only thriven once in the
US's history, one of those demi-Republican parties will wither
and die; we don't attempt to predict how long it will take.
Probably not. They are more likely to keep running as Republicans (to
avoid confusing the voters) and hoping that /they/ will get re-elected
while the RINOs (that is, those that follow Trump) do not.

But they may not have that choice, at least in States where the
Parties are able to control who runs under their name.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Jonathan
2021-05-16 13:42:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jonathan
Oh, I thought you were talking last republican conference~
Is this meant to reference the last Republican National
Convention? National party conventions in the US that
do the nominating aren't called conferences.
No, it was about the annual conference
where all the republicans gather, this year
is was all about finding ways to keep the
American people believing Trump won the election.
Or, to keep the Trumpsters STUPID.
The one chaired by Cheney where she...refused
to invite Trump. Don't you remember that
incredible snub?
GOP Leaders Clash on Trump at Annual Retreat
“We have to learn the lessons from 2020. It’s one of the
reasons why it’s so damaging to perpetuate the notion
that in 2020, the election was stolen,said Ms. Cheney
an interview.”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-leaders-clash-on-trump-at-annual-retreat-11619563002
Well, she's out. The Representative from Suck-up is in.
I suppose that's a better choice than the Representative from QAnon.
The Rest of Us will wave a fond farewell to the Republican Party, as
it slowly sinks into the West.
I agree with that, at least in the long term, but
for the next few elections our democracy is still
in danger.

States are passing laws that allow them to ignore the
popular vote and send minority candidates electors
if they like.

If the repubs have the House in 2024 they could refuse
to certify the electoral votes and send it to the House
for the state legislatures to vote for the next President.
And since repubs have the majority in state legislatures
they could vote in the minority candidate.

And once they accomplished that for the first time, they
could do the same thing over and over.

That would put an end to democracy and could likely start
a violent civil war. If they do that I'm all for a
revolution by whatever means are necessary.

In fact it becomes a civic duty to overthrow such an oppressor.

And if you think the Trump nation won't do it, you're
not thinking clearly. Trumpism is the return of
European fascism of the last century.

And Fascism is a very effective political strategy
which is why it managed to nearly burn the world to
the ground in WW2.

We're experiencing, like a virus, a second wave of
this diseased political strategy.

This is what the republican president in waiting
wrote YESTERDAY. A pack of lies as long as your arm
designed to do ONE THING.

Get rid of democracy

The current Arizona recount has NO CHOICE now
but to rig the count, else they'd put this BIG LIE
out to pasture.

They have to rig the count.


Donald J. Trump
2:12pm May 15, 2021

The entire Database of Maricopa County in Arizona has been DELETED! This
is illegal and the Arizona State Senate, who is leading the Forensic
Audit, is up in arms. Additionally, seals were broken on the boxes that
hold the votes, ballots are missing, and worse. Mark Brnovich, the
Attorney General of Arizona, will now be forced to look into this
unbelievable Election crime. Many Radical Left Democrats and weak
Republicans are very worried about the fact that this has been exposed.
The DELETION of an entire Database and critical Election files of
Maricopa County is unprecedented. Many other States to follow. The
Mainstream Media and Radical Left Democrats want to stay as far away as
possible from the Presidential Election Fraud, which should be one of
the biggest stories of our time. Fox News is afraid to cover it—there is
rarely a mention. Likewise, Newsmax has been virtually silent on this
subject because they are intimidated by threats of lawsuits. One America
News (OAN), one of the fastest growing networks on television, and the
“hottest”, is doing a magnificent job of exposing the massive fraud that
took place. The story is only getting bigger and at some point it will
be impossible for the weak and/or corrupt media not to cover. Thank you
to OAN and other brave American Patriots. It is all happening quickly!

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/desk
--
https://twitter.com/Non_Linear1
Ben Bradley
2021-05-25 01:34:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
What other titles can people list?
The thread reminded me of one, so here's my YASID in this thread: There was a generation ship story (I at first thought it was Heinlein, but the description of "Orphans" doesn't match it at all), I probably read in Asimov's or Analog 30 to 45 years ago, and I don't know how to ask about it or describe it without totally spoiling it. The main character is somehow (rightly) suspicious about this generation ship going out to the stars, the ship is (well, maybe, my memory is weak) computer-controlled, there are legends among the residents and such, and of course one can't exit the ship because right there is the vacuum of space ... it ends with either the protagonist finding a way out or the computer finally opening the doors as the ship 'reaches its destination' - and of course the secret is it's not a ship traveling through space, but an enclosed building on Earth that's been there all these generations, built to keep people in after a nuclear war and until the radiation has dropped to a safe level.
Does anyone remember this?
Lynn McGuire
2021-05-25 01:38:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ben Bradley
Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
What other titles can people list?
The thread reminded me of one, so here's my YASID in this thread: There was a generation ship story (I at first thought it was Heinlein, but the description of "Orphans" doesn't match it at all), I probably read in Asimov's or Analog 30 to 45 years ago, and I don't know how to ask about it or describe it without totally spoiling it. The main character is somehow (rightly) suspicious about this generation ship going out to the stars, the ship is (well, maybe, my memory is weak) computer-controlled, there are legends among the residents and such, and of course one can't exit the ship because right there is the vacuum of space ... it ends with either the protagonist finding a way out or the computer finally opening the doors as the ship 'reaches its destination' - and of course the secret is it's not a ship traveling through space, but an enclosed building on Earth that's been there all these generations, built to keep people in after a nuclear war and until the radiation has dropped to a safe level.
Does anyone remember this?
Sounds like a variant of Wool.
https://www.amazon.com/Wool-
Robert Woodward
2021-05-25 05:17:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ben Bradley
Post by Robert Woodward
I am thinking of colonies where the descendants of the ship crew keep
the descendants of the passengers ignorant of Earth's existence and high
technology (and thus ruled). This is more easily done with a seed ship.
What other titles can people list?
The thread reminded me of one, so here's my YASID in this thread: There
was a generation ship story (I at first thought it was Heinlein, but the
description of "Orphans" doesn't match it at all), I probably read in
Asimov's or Analog 30 to 45 years ago, and I don't know how to ask about
it or describe it without totally spoiling it. The main character is
somehow (rightly) suspicious about this generation ship going out to the
stars, the ship is (well, maybe, my memory is weak) computer-controlled,
there are legends among the residents and such, and of course one can't
exit the ship because right there is the vacuum of space ... it ends with
either the protagonist finding a way out or the computer finally opening
the doors as the ship 'reaches its destination' - and of course the secret
is it's not a ship traveling through space, but an enclosed building on
Earth that's been there all these generations, built to keep people in
after a nuclear war and until the radiation has dropped to a safe level.
Does anyone remember this?
IIRC, I have read at least 2 stories with this basic gimmick, but it was
years ago for both.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
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