Discussion:
[OT] Burl Ives' Youthful Folly
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Quadibloc
2019-12-09 16:07:20 UTC
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After posting links here to five videos of Japanese trains with a particular North
Korean song that had become a meme in Japan as the music...

yes, it is a meme

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/this-is-an-attack

I was trying to see if I could find some music actually written about trains that
sort of had that kind of feeling of bounciness and surging power. Except for
"Freight Train", I couldn't really find anything of the sort in my first attempt
at searching.

But I did find something completely different:





and, no, it had nothing to do with Monty Python, being somber instead of funny.

It was recorded in 1944, a suitable time to remind Americans that the battle for
freedom was still ongoing; its subject was the assassination of Abraham Lincoln.

Burl Ives sang and narrated, but Pete Seeger was among those involved in the
project.

Notes on the YouTube posting for the first installment claim the music on these
78 rpm records is generally unavailable.

Aside from the somber subject matter perhaps limiting demand for the recording,
Burl Ives may indeed have had career reasons to discourage any re-issue, given
both the nature of his subsequent career, and certain unhappy developments of
the post-war era.

John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-12-09 18:19:09 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
After posting links here to five videos of Japanese trains with a particular North
Korean song that had become a meme in Japan as the music...
yes, it is a meme
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/this-is-an-attack
I was trying to see if I could find some music actually written about trains that
sort of had that kind of feeling of bounciness and surging power. Except for
"Freight Train", I couldn't really find anything of the sort in my first attempt
at searching.
Well, there's the one of the Bachianas Brasileiras by
Villa-Lobos, let me look up its title...

"The Little Train of the Caipira," the last movement of B. B. No.
2. Music for the little engine that could.

And there's the theme music for the 1974 version of _Murder on
the Orient Express,_ by Richard Rodney Bennett. (I have not seen
the remake, so am relieved from having to comment thereon.)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jack Bohn
2019-12-09 21:52:51 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
After posting links here to five videos of Japanese trains with a particular North
Korean song that had become a meme in Japan as the music...
I was trying to see if I could find some music actually written about trains that
sort of had that kind of feeling of bounciness and surging power. Except for
"Freight Train", I couldn't really find anything of the sort in my first attempt
at searching.
Well, there's the one of the Bachianas Brasileiras by
Villa-Lobos, let me look up its title...
"The Little Train of the Caipira," the last movement of B. B. No.
2. Music for the little engine that could.
And there's the theme music for the 1974 version of _Murder on
the Orient Express,_ by Richard Rodney Bennett. (I have not seen
the remake, so am relieved from having to comment thereon.)
"Fast Freight" by the Kingston Trio is more melloncholy than bouncy, but it captures the clickety clack that the wheels sing to the railroad track.

The opening song of "The Music Man" is supposed to keep increasing in tempo with the train its scene is set upon.
--
-Jack
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-12-09 22:06:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
After posting links here to five videos of Japanese trains with a particular North
Korean song that had become a meme in Japan as the music...
I was trying to see if I could find some music actually written about trains that
sort of had that kind of feeling of bounciness and surging power. Except for
"Freight Train", I couldn't really find anything of the sort in my first attempt
at searching.
Well, there's the one of the Bachianas Brasileiras by
Villa-Lobos, let me look up its title...
"The Little Train of the Caipira," the last movement of B. B. No.
2. Music for the little engine that could.
And there's the theme music for the 1974 version of _Murder on
the Orient Express,_ by Richard Rodney Bennett. (I have not seen
the remake, so am relieved from having to comment thereon.)
"Fast Freight" by the Kingston Trio is more melloncholy than bouncy, but
it captures the clickety clack that the wheels sing to the railroad
track.
The opening song of "The Music Man" is supposed to keep increasing in
tempo with the train its scene is set upon.
--
-Jack
I like John Fogerty's "Southern Streamline":


--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Kevrob
2019-12-09 23:01:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
After posting links here to five videos of Japanese trains with a particular North
Korean song that had become a meme in Japan as the music...
I was trying to see if I could find some music actually written about trains that
sort of had that kind of feeling of bounciness and surging power. Except for
"Freight Train", I couldn't really find anything of the sort in my first attempt
at searching.
Well, there's the one of the Bachianas Brasileiras by
Villa-Lobos, let me look up its title...
"The Little Train of the Caipira," the last movement of B. B. No.
2. Music for the little engine that could.
And there's the theme music for the 1974 version of _Murder on
the Orient Express,_ by Richard Rodney Bennett. (I have not seen
the remake, so am relieved from having to comment thereon.)
"Fast Freight" by the Kingston Trio is more melloncholy than bouncy, but
it captures the clickety clack that the wheels sing to the railroad
track.
The opening song of "The Music Man" is supposed to keep increasing in
tempo with the train its scene is set upon.
--
-Jack
http://youtu.be/swo6uH0-ANg
Steve Earle w/The Del McCoury Band: "Texas Eagle"



Louis Jordan & the Tympany 5,
"Choo Choo Ch'Boogie"



Or the "Asleep At The Wheel" version



They've got the "rythym of the clicety clack."

Kevin R
P. Taine
2019-12-14 20:38:35 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
After posting links here to five videos of Japanese trains with a particular North
Korean song that had become a meme in Japan as the music...
I was trying to see if I could find some music actually written about trains that
sort of had that kind of feeling of bounciness and surging power. Except for
"Freight Train", I couldn't really find anything of the sort in my first attempt
at searching.
Well, there's the one of the Bachianas Brasileiras by
Villa-Lobos, let me look up its title...
"The Little Train of the Caipira," the last movement of B. B. No.
2. Music for the little engine that could.
And there's the theme music for the 1974 version of _Murder on
the Orient Express,_ by Richard Rodney Bennett. (I have not seen
the remake, so am relieved from having to comment thereon.)
"Fast Freight" by the Kingston Trio is more melloncholy than bouncy, but
it captures the clickety clack that the wheels sing to the railroad
track.
The opening song of "The Music Man" is supposed to keep increasing in
tempo with the train its scene is set upon.
--
-Jack
http://youtu.be/swo6uH0-ANg
Honegger's "Pacific 231"

P. Taine
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-12-09 23:13:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
After posting links here to five videos of Japanese trains with a particular North
Korean song that had become a meme in Japan as the music...
I was trying to see if I could find some music actually written about trains that
sort of had that kind of feeling of bounciness and surging power. Except for
"Freight Train", I couldn't really find anything of the sort in my first attempt
at searching.
Well, there's the one of the Bachianas Brasileiras by
Villa-Lobos, let me look up its title...
"The Little Train of the Caipira," the last movement of B. B. No.
2. Music for the little engine that could.
And there's the theme music for the 1974 version of _Murder on
the Orient Express,_ by Richard Rodney Bennett. (I have not seen
the remake, so am relieved from having to comment thereon.)
"Fast Freight" by the Kingston Trio is more melloncholy than bouncy, but
it captures the clickety clack that the wheels sing to the railroad
track.
The opening song of "The Music Man" is supposed to keep increasing in
tempo with the train its scene is set upon.
Yes. Apparently the piece originally had music to go with it,
but the chorus were rehearsing it parlato, to get the rhythm
right, and the composer heard them and said, "Hey, it sounds
better that way!"

Oh, here's another train song, performed by an ad hoc group at a
train station.


--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2019-12-10 00:14:38 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Oh, here's another train song, performed by an ad hoc group at a
train station.
http://youtu.be/Kb2uciHpe4U
That's an old one, recorded way back in the 1920s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Train

That group wasn't so "ad hoc."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_Revival_Tour

Kevin R
Paul S Person
2019-12-10 18:08:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
After posting links here to five videos of Japanese trains with a particular North
Korean song that had become a meme in Japan as the music...
yes, it is a meme
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/this-is-an-attack
I was trying to see if I could find some music actually written about trains that
sort of had that kind of feeling of bounciness and surging power. Except for
"Freight Train", I couldn't really find anything of the sort in my first attempt
at searching.
Well, there's the one of the Bachianas Brasileiras by
Villa-Lobos, let me look up its title...
"The Little Train of the Caipira," the last movement of B. B. No.
2. Music for the little engine that could.
And there's the theme music for the 1974 version of _Murder on
the Orient Express,_ by Richard Rodney Bennett. (I have not seen
the remake, so am relieved from having to comment thereon.)
You have /no/ idea how relieved you should be.

The remake of /True Grit/ was better -- and it was awful.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
p***@hotmail.com
2019-12-10 19:41:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
After posting links here to five videos of Japanese trains with a particular North
Korean song that had become a meme in Japan as the music...
yes, it is a meme
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/this-is-an-attack
I was trying to see if I could find some music actually written about trains that
sort of had that kind of feeling of bounciness and surging power. Except for
"Freight Train", I couldn't really find anything of the sort in my first attempt
at searching.
Harry Warren and Johnny Mercer's Academy award winning original song
_On the Atchison, Topeka and the Sante Fe_ from _The Harvey Girls_
is one possibility.

The railroad journey part of Zdenek Liska's score for the movie
_The Fabulous World of Jules Verne_ (AKA _A Deadly Invention_) is
also very evocative.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-12-10 20:02:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
After posting links here to five videos of Japanese trains with a
particular North
Post by Quadibloc
Korean song that had become a meme in Japan as the music...
yes, it is a meme
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/this-is-an-attack
I was trying to see if I could find some music actually written about
trains that
Post by Quadibloc
sort of had that kind of feeling of bounciness and surging power. Except for
"Freight Train", I couldn't really find anything of the sort in my
first attempt
Post by Quadibloc
at searching.
Harry Warren and Johnny Mercer's Academy award winning original song
_On the Atchison, Topeka and the Sante Fe_ from _The Harvey Girls_
is one possibility.
The railroad journey part of Zdenek Liska's score for the movie
_The Fabulous World of Jules Verne_ (AKA _A Deadly Invention_) is
also very evocative.
There is no shortage of train songs. There must be 50 versions of
"The Wabash Cannonball" which click along jauntily. Likewise "Chatanooga
Choo-Choo".
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
p***@hotmail.com
2020-01-30 20:47:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
After posting links here to five videos of Japanese trains with a particular North
Korean song that had become a meme in Japan as the music...
yes, it is a meme
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/this-is-an-attack
I was trying to see if I could find some music actually written about trains that
sort of had that kind of feeling of bounciness and surging power. Except for
"Freight Train", I couldn't really find anything of the sort in my first attempt
at searching.
Harry Warren and Johnny Mercer's Academy award winning original song
_On the Atchison, Topeka and the Sante Fe_ from _The Harvey Girls_
is one possibility.
The railroad journey part of Zdenek Liska's score for the movie
_The Fabulous World of Jules Verne_ (AKA _A Deadly Invention_) is
also very evocative.
The entire movie _The Fabulous World of Jules Verne_, in Czech with
English subtitles, is available here:



The railroad journey sequence starts at about 04:15 minutes.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
on YouTube

Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-12-15 19:14:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Aside from the somber subject matter perhaps limiting demand for the
recording,
Post by Quadibloc
Burl Ives may indeed have had career reasons to discourage any
re-issue, given
Post by Quadibloc
both the nature of his subsequent career, and certain unhappy developments of
the post-war era.
From the California Chronicle in 2009 (circa Ives' 100th anniversary,
"Many people under 40 likely know little about the man whose life will
be celebrated next week at an Illinois festival.
"Burl Ives was a folk-music monster, churning out 74 albums from 1941
to 1977. But he also won an Oscar for best supporting actor in 1959
and was nominated a second time for his role as Big Daddy in 'Cat on a
Hot Tin Roof.'..."
And now remembered only as an avuncular snowman.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Kevrob
2019-12-15 19:34:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Aside from the somber subject matter perhaps limiting demand for the recording,
Burl Ives may indeed have had career reasons to discourage any re-issue, given
both the nature of his subsequent career, and certain unhappy developments of
the post-war era.
"Many people under 40 likely know little about the man whose life will
be celebrated next week at an Illinois festival.
"Burl Ives was a folk-music monster, churning out 74 albums from 1941
to 1977. But he also won an Oscar for best supporting actor in 1959
and was nominated a second time for his role as Big Daddy in 'Cat on a
Hot Tin Roof.'..."
"And Pete Seeger publicly forgave him (I don't know if others betrayed
did)."
Me: I wondered if someone would bring that up. (My father was shocked when
I told him, years ago, that Ives agreed to testify for the HUAC.)
Brazee: "That said, I have albums of both Ives and Seeger."
Pete Seeger finally "came around" on Stalin, in the nineteen-NINETIES!

https://reason.com/blog/2007/09/05/the-anti-stalin-songbird

https://reason.com/blog/2009/04/29/this-machine-loves-communists

"He dead now," so forgiving him, if one hasn't already done so,
is useless.

I don't know if I'll ever forgive Burl for "Little Brown Duck." :)

Kevin R
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-12-15 19:40:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Aside from the somber subject matter perhaps limiting demand for the
recording,
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Burl Ives may indeed have had career reasons to discourage any
re-issue, given
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
both the nature of his subsequent career, and certain unhappy
developments of
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
the post-war era.
From the California Chronicle in 2009 (circa Ives' 100th anniversary,
"Many people under 40 likely know little about the man whose life will
be celebrated next week at an Illinois festival.
"Burl Ives was a folk-music monster, churning out 74 albums from 1941
to 1977. But he also won an Oscar for best supporting actor in 1959
and was nominated a second time for his role as Big Daddy in 'Cat on a
Hot Tin Roof.'..."
"And Pete Seeger publicly forgave him (I don't know if others betrayed
did)."
Me: I wondered if someone would bring that up. (My father was shocked when
I told him, years ago, that Ives agreed to testify for the HUAC.)
Brazee: "That said, I have albums of both Ives and Seeger."
Pete Seeger finally "came around" on Stalin, in the nineteen-NINETIES!
https://reason.com/blog/2007/09/05/the-anti-stalin-songbird
https://reason.com/blog/2009/04/29/this-machine-loves-communists
"He dead now," so forgiving him, if one hasn't already done so,
is useless.
I don't know if I'll ever forgive Burl for "Little Brown Duck." :)
White

That was my first piano recital tune. And I refused to go on stage.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Kevrob
2019-12-15 21:37:47 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Kevrob
I don't know if I'll ever forgive Burl for "Little Brown Duck." :)
White
That was my first piano recital tune. And I refused to go on stage.
Thanks for the correction. I would usually check something
like that, but didn't want to risk a video autoplaying that
track.

Kevin R
l***@yahoo.com
2019-12-15 19:54:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I will say that I learned long ago to bite my tongue whenever I was tempted to sing the praises of pretty much ANY activist-type person, whether it was a politician or an entertainer. Chances are that person is going to disappoint you badly in one way or another, eventually.

So if only Seeger had learned to do that, he wouldn't have had so many enemies.

(For the most part, George Carlin was smart enough to keep HIS more specific political stances to himself and make any donations he wanted to in private...)


Lenona.
Quadibloc
2019-12-15 20:04:11 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
"And Pete Seeger publicly forgave him (I don't know if others betrayed
did)."
Me: I wondered if someone would bring that up. (My father was shocked when
I told him, years ago, that Ives agreed to testify for the HUAC.)
Finally, a post that picked up on the other issue I raised in my original post:
had collaborating with Pete Seeger led to difficulties in his later career. I
had not known any of the details, I had just come across this album about
Lincoln.

John Savard
s***@yahoo.com
2019-12-15 22:42:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
First train thing pops in my mind is Humoresque,better known
by the unofficial lyrics "passengers will please refrain".
http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/folk-song-lyrics/Humoresque.htm
It starts slowly and has the click-clack rail junction sound.

I have also enjoyed performing Tosha Losa. (sp?)

Nils
Kevrob
2019-12-15 23:49:21 UTC
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Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
First train thing pops in my mind is Humoresque,better known
by the unofficial lyrics "passengers will please refrain".
http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/folk-song-lyrics/Humoresque.htm
It starts slowly and has the click-clack rail junction sound.
I have also enjoyed performing Tosha Losa. (sp?)
Steve Goodman used "passengers will please refrain" as a
lyric in "City of New Orleans," made famous by Arlo Guthrie.

Did Goodman pick it up from there?

Discussion of lyrics at Mudcat

https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=143752

https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=42386

oscar Brand recording:



Kevin R



Did he

Kevin R
Robert Carnegie
2019-12-16 02:15:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by s***@yahoo.com
First train thing pops in my mind is Humoresque,better known
by the unofficial lyrics "passengers will please refrain".
http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/folk-song-lyrics/Humoresque.htm
It starts slowly and has the click-clack rail junction sound.
I have also enjoyed performing Tosha Losa. (sp?)
Steve Goodman used "passengers will please refrain" as a
lyric in "City of New Orleans," made famous by Arlo Guthrie.
Did Goodman pick it up from there?
Discussion of lyrics at Mudcat
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=143752
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=42386
http://youtu.be/uyiMYI4oQTU
Kevin R
I'm not clear if this is British or American or both
or general. My father picked up some songs during
Second World War service that he used to leave out
most of the words from at home. I think in this one
we only heard the line "when the train is in the station".

The subject appeals to the twentieth century British sense
of humour. This internet hasn't confirmed to me, but I
/think/ that the /visual/ element of the BBC Television
version of _The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy_
includes, probably in the "excruciatingly bad poetry"
incident, a Guide page displaying, "You are a cloud.
You are raining. Do not rain When the train
Is in the station."

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50490428>
explains that Scottish trains recently but unfortunately
only temporarily stopped depositing waste on railway tracks.
Railway track maintenance workers are dismayed. However,
"retention tanks" should be found on all trains soon.
Here, anyway.
Kevrob
2019-12-16 18:17:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Kevrob
Discussion of lyrics at Mudcat
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=143752
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=42386
http://youtu.be/uyiMYI4oQTU
I'm not clear if this is British or American or both
or general. My father picked up some songs during
Second World War service that he used to leave out
most of the words from at home. I think in this one
we only heard the line "when the train is in the station".
The subject appeals to the twentieth century British sense
of humour. This internet hasn't confirmed to me, but I
/think/ that the /visual/ element of the BBC Television
version of _The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy_
includes, probably in the "excruciatingly bad poetry"
incident, a Guide page displaying, "You are a cloud.
You are raining. Do not rain When the train
Is in the station."
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50490428>
explains that Scottish trains recently but unfortunately
only temporarily stopped depositing waste on railway tracks.
Railway track maintenance workers are dismayed. However,
"retention tanks" should be found on all trains soon.
Here, anyway.
A commentator in the 2nd Mudcat thread I linked to claims
that 2 Yalies, one of them future Supreme Court Justice
Douglas, dreamed this up on a train line back to New Haven
from New York. [Today's Metro North, New Haven line, which
I ride when I visit my sisters in the City.] I have no
idea if that is accurate.

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-12-17 00:04:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm not clear if this is British or American or both
or general. My father picked up some songs during
Second World War service that he used to leave out
most of the words from at home.
So did mine, and I can still sing "I've Got Sixpence" if I put my
mind to it. I don't recall any others offhand, so perhaps he
carefully didn't teach them to me. He was fairly straitlaced,
having been born in Connecticut in 1912. He used to get annoyed
if I went barefoot in public. In fact, even inside the house, he
would say, "Go put on some feet!"

I think in this one
Post by Robert Carnegie
we only heard the line "when the train is in the station".
Sung to Dvorak's Humoresque?
Post by Robert Carnegie
The subject appeals to the twentieth century British sense
of humour. This internet hasn't confirmed to me, but I
/think/ that the /visual/ element of the BBC Television
version of _The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy_
includes, probably in the "excruciatingly bad poetry"
incident, a Guide page displaying, "You are a cloud.
You are raining. Do not rain When the train
Is in the station."
Possibly in the remake, which I haven't seen. I have the old
version (with Peter Davidson as the food animal) on DVD, and that
line would resound with me if I'd ever heard it.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jerry Brown
2019-12-17 18:49:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm not clear if this is British or American or both
or general. My father picked up some songs during
Second World War service that he used to leave out
most of the words from at home.
So did mine, and I can still sing "I've Got Sixpence" if I put my
mind to it. I don't recall any others offhand, so perhaps he
carefully didn't teach them to me. He was fairly straitlaced,
having been born in Connecticut in 1912. He used to get annoyed
if I went barefoot in public. In fact, even inside the house, he
would say, "Go put on some feet!"
I think in this one
Post by Robert Carnegie
we only heard the line "when the train is in the station".
Sung to Dvorak's Humoresque?
Post by Robert Carnegie
The subject appeals to the twentieth century British sense
of humour. This internet hasn't confirmed to me, but I
/think/ that the /visual/ element of the BBC Television
version of _The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy_
includes, probably in the "excruciatingly bad poetry"
incident, a Guide page displaying, "You are a cloud.
You are raining. Do not rain When the train
Is in the station."
Possibly in the remake, which I haven't seen. I have the old
version (with Peter Davidson as the food animal) on DVD, and that
"Davison" - I wonder if ever regrets choosing a stage name that more
people seem to get wrong than right.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
line would resound with me if I'd ever heard it.
--
Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)
Robert Carnegie
2019-12-17 22:08:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Brown
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm not clear if this is British or American or both
or general. My father picked up some songs during
Second World War service that he used to leave out
most of the words from at home.
So did mine, and I can still sing "I've Got Sixpence" if I put my
mind to it. I don't recall any others offhand, so perhaps he
carefully didn't teach them to me. He was fairly straitlaced,
having been born in Connecticut in 1912. He used to get annoyed
if I went barefoot in public. In fact, even inside the house, he
would say, "Go put on some feet!"
I think in this one
Post by Robert Carnegie
we only heard the line "when the train is in the station".
Sung to Dvorak's Humoresque?
Oh, confirmed.
Post by Jerry Brown
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
The subject appeals to the twentieth century British sense
of humour. This internet hasn't confirmed to me, but I
/think/ that the /visual/ element of the BBC Television
version of _The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy_
includes, probably in the "excruciatingly bad poetry"
incident, a Guide page displaying, "You are a cloud.
You are raining. Do not rain When the train
Is in the station."
Possibly in the remake, which I haven't seen. I have the old
version (with Peter Davidson as the food animal) on DVD, and that
"Davison" - I wonder if ever regrets choosing a stage name that more
people seem to get wrong than right.
_Doctor Who Magazine_ cover-announcing "Peter Davidson IS The Doctor!"
was felt painfully by the producer, and consequently, by the magazine
publisher.
Post by Jerry Brown
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
line would resound with me if I'd ever heard it.
I think the text I have in mind was shown but not spoken, in one of the
expensively animated bits of the Guide, and then went on about moving
with the wind. And I think I have the DVD release somewhere, to check
sometime...
Jerry Brown
2019-12-18 07:23:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 17 Dec 2019 14:08:53 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
<snip>
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Jerry Brown
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Possibly in the remake, which I haven't seen. I have the old
version (with Peter Davidson as the food animal) on DVD, and that
"Davison" - I wonder if ever regrets choosing a stage name that more
people seem to get wrong than right.
_Doctor Who Magazine_ cover-announcing "Peter Davidson IS The Doctor!"
was felt painfully by the producer, and consequently, by the magazine
publisher.
And by Davison himself - I asked him at a signing back in 1982. And
(for once) my usually clueless teenage self guessed that questioning
his stage name probably wasn't a good idea. He already looked a bit
embarrassed at having to wear his Doctor costume in the Real World.
--
Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)
J. Clarke
2019-12-16 01:15:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Aside from the somber subject matter perhaps limiting demand for the recording,
Burl Ives may indeed have had career reasons to discourage any re-issue, given
both the nature of his subsequent career, and certain unhappy developments of
the post-war era.
"Many people under 40 likely know little about the man whose life will
be celebrated next week at an Illinois festival.
"Burl Ives was a folk-music monster, churning out 74 albums from 1941
to 1977. But he also won an Oscar for best supporting actor in 1959
and was nominated a second time for his role as Big Daddy in 'Cat on a
Hot Tin Roof.'..."
"And Pete Seeger publicly forgave him (I don't know if others betrayed
did)."
Me: I wondered if someone would bring that up. (My father was shocked when
I told him, years ago, that Ives agreed to testify for the HUAC.)
Brazee: "That said, I have albums of both Ives and Seeger."
Nobody's mentioned it yet so I will--Ives has at least one genuine
sfnal connection--he played Fakrash Allemash, an afrit of the green
djinn (I think I've got that right--it's been decades), in the movie
"The Brass Bottle", with Tony Randall and Barbara Eden--the plot was
basically "Tony lets a genie out and hilarity ensues" but still it's
better than a lot of Hollywood efforts from around that time.
Post by Quadibloc
Lenona.
Paul S Person
2019-12-16 17:40:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 20:15:26 -0500, J. Clarke
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

<snippo>
Post by J. Clarke
Nobody's mentioned it yet so I will--Ives has at least one genuine
sfnal connection--he played Fakrash Allemash, an afrit of the green
djinn (I think I've got that right--it's been decades), in the movie
"The Brass Bottle", with Tony Randall and Barbara Eden--the plot was
basically "Tony lets a genie out and hilarity ensues" but still it's
better than a lot of Hollywood efforts from around that time.
Was the bottle sealed by Solomon?

Did he get the djinn to go back into it?

(Wikipedia suggests, confusedly, that it was "djinn" in the book and
"genie" in the film. This is, of course, the difference between
/transcribing/ the Arabic word and /adapting/ it to English. Wikipedia
also uses "jinn" in the section heading, an alternate transciption.)

An "afrit", IIRC from the Mardrus & Mathys translation of /The Book of
the Thousand Nights and One Night/, is a djinn of the /air/ as opposed
to the sea or the land. Sadly, it's been a while since I re-read it,
and I don't remember anything about colors (so you may be right, I
just can't say). When I search for "green djinn" on Googal, I get
articles about "Ouktazaun (Arabian) - Evil gold-skinned Djinn which
induce extreme greed in their victims". One of the images has green
skin, however the link
https://skies-of-glass.obsidianportal.com/wiki_pages/djinni
appears to be related to a game. Which is rather far from authentic
djinn lore, IMHO.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
J. Clarke
2019-12-17 02:51:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 09:40:06 -0800, Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 20:15:26 -0500, J. Clarke
<snippo>
Post by J. Clarke
Nobody's mentioned it yet so I will--Ives has at least one genuine
sfnal connection--he played Fakrash Allemash, an afrit of the green
djinn (I think I've got that right--it's been decades), in the movie
"The Brass Bottle", with Tony Randall and Barbara Eden--the plot was
basically "Tony lets a genie out and hilarity ensues" but still it's
better than a lot of Hollywood efforts from around that time.
Was the bottle sealed by Solomon?
Good question--I forget how Suleiman got into it, but it was
ascertained at one point that "Suleiman is Solomon and Solomon is
Suleiman", however it was IIRC Suleiman the Magnificent, who
historically is a different Solomon--in the movie I think we are
supposed to believe that he was the Biblical one.
Post by Paul S Person
Did he get the djinn to go back into it?
I don't recall that either.
Post by Paul S Person
(Wikipedia suggests, confusedly, that it was "djinn" in the book and
"genie" in the film. This is, of course, the difference between
/transcribing/ the Arabic word and /adapting/ it to English. Wikipedia
also uses "jinn" in the section heading, an alternate transciption.)
Wiki is a little off there. Fakrash was usually described as a
"genie" however there was IIRC discussion of the word "djinn" in the
movie, and his statement that he was an "afrit of the green djinn"
contextually struck me as aa bit of a pun--IIRC Randall's character
had a bit of a hangover at the time and one could easily make it "an
afrit of the green _gin_".
Post by Paul S Person
An "afrit", IIRC from the Mardrus & Mathys translation of /The Book of
the Thousand Nights and One Night/, is a djinn of the /air/ as opposed
to the sea or the land. Sadly, it's been a while since I re-read it,
and I don't remember anything about colors (so you may be right, I
just can't say). When I search for "green djinn" on Googal, I get
articles about "Ouktazaun (Arabian) - Evil gold-skinned Djinn which
induce extreme greed in their victims". One of the images has green
skin, however the link
https://skies-of-glass.obsidianportal.com/wiki_pages/djinni
appears to be related to a game. Which is rather far from authentic
djinn lore, IMHO.
Hey, it was a Hollywood production with a fairly substantial
budget--you really expect accuracy?
Paul S Person
2019-12-17 17:27:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 21:51:32 -0500, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 09:40:06 -0800, Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 20:15:26 -0500, J. Clarke
<snippo>
Post by J. Clarke
Nobody's mentioned it yet so I will--Ives has at least one genuine
sfnal connection--he played Fakrash Allemash, an afrit of the green
djinn (I think I've got that right--it's been decades), in the movie
"The Brass Bottle", with Tony Randall and Barbara Eden--the plot was
basically "Tony lets a genie out and hilarity ensues" but still it's
better than a lot of Hollywood efforts from around that time.
Was the bottle sealed by Solomon?
Good question--I forget how Suleiman got into it, but it was
ascertained at one point that "Suleiman is Solomon and Solomon is
Suleiman", however it was IIRC Suleiman the Magnificent, who
historically is a different Solomon--in the movie I think we are
supposed to believe that he was the Biblical one.
Well, the /names/ are the same, just English vs transcribed Arabic.
(In transcribed Hebrew, it is Shlomoh).
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Paul S Person
Did he get the djinn to go back into it?
I don't recall that either.
In the Arabian Nights, that's how the story ends -- the fisherman
figures out how to get the genie back into the bottle.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Paul S Person
(Wikipedia suggests, confusedly, that it was "djinn" in the book and
"genie" in the film. This is, of course, the difference between
/transcribing/ the Arabic word and /adapting/ it to English. Wikipedia
also uses "jinn" in the section heading, an alternate transciption.)
Wiki is a little off there. Fakrash was usually described as a
"genie" however there was IIRC discussion of the word "djinn" in the
movie, and his statement that he was an "afrit of the green djinn"
contextually struck me as aa bit of a pun--IIRC Randall's character
had a bit of a hangover at the time and one could easily make it "an
afrit of the green _gin_".
Anything is possible, in movies or on TV.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Paul S Person
An "afrit", IIRC from the Mardrus & Mathys translation of /The Book of
the Thousand Nights and One Night/, is a djinn of the /air/ as opposed
to the sea or the land. Sadly, it's been a while since I re-read it,
and I don't remember anything about colors (so you may be right, I
just can't say). When I search for "green djinn" on Googal, I get
articles about "Ouktazaun (Arabian) - Evil gold-skinned Djinn which
induce extreme greed in their victims". One of the images has green
skin, however the link
https://skies-of-glass.obsidianportal.com/wiki_pages/djinni
appears to be related to a game. Which is rather far from authentic
djinn lore, IMHO.
Hey, it was a Hollywood production with a fairly substantial
budget--you really expect accuracy?
I got distracted a bit -- the point that I asked for "green djinn" and
got "greed jinn" was not brought out properly.

But, no, accuracy is never expected, especially if it is hard to find
or inconvenient to how the picture is intended to work.

I should note, however, that /The Court Jester/, in the title song,
claims to have been based on extensive research. But that was probably
just humor, as it is a very funny movie.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
J. Clarke
2019-12-17 18:39:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 17 Dec 2019 09:27:58 -0800, Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 21:51:32 -0500, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 09:40:06 -0800, Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 20:15:26 -0500, J. Clarke
<snippo>
Post by J. Clarke
Nobody's mentioned it yet so I will--Ives has at least one genuine
sfnal connection--he played Fakrash Allemash, an afrit of the green
djinn (I think I've got that right--it's been decades), in the movie
"The Brass Bottle", with Tony Randall and Barbara Eden--the plot was
basically "Tony lets a genie out and hilarity ensues" but still it's
better than a lot of Hollywood efforts from around that time.
Was the bottle sealed by Solomon?
Good question--I forget how Suleiman got into it, but it was
ascertained at one point that "Suleiman is Solomon and Solomon is
Suleiman", however it was IIRC Suleiman the Magnificent, who
historically is a different Solomon--in the movie I think we are
supposed to believe that he was the Biblical one.
Well, the /names/ are the same, just English vs transcribed Arabic.
(In transcribed Hebrew, it is Shlomoh).
<sigh> Sulieman the Magnificent was Sultan of the Ottoman Empire in
the 1500s. The Biblical Solomon was King of Israel about 2500 years
earlier.
Post by Paul S Person
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Paul S Person
Did he get the djinn to go back into it?
I don't recall that either.
In the Arabian Nights, that's how the story ends -- the fisherman
figures out how to get the genie back into the bottle.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Paul S Person
(Wikipedia suggests, confusedly, that it was "djinn" in the book and
"genie" in the film. This is, of course, the difference between
/transcribing/ the Arabic word and /adapting/ it to English. Wikipedia
also uses "jinn" in the section heading, an alternate transciption.)
Wiki is a little off there. Fakrash was usually described as a
"genie" however there was IIRC discussion of the word "djinn" in the
movie, and his statement that he was an "afrit of the green djinn"
contextually struck me as aa bit of a pun--IIRC Randall's character
had a bit of a hangover at the time and one could easily make it "an
afrit of the green _gin_".
Anything is possible, in movies or on TV.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Paul S Person
An "afrit", IIRC from the Mardrus & Mathys translation of /The Book of
the Thousand Nights and One Night/, is a djinn of the /air/ as opposed
to the sea or the land. Sadly, it's been a while since I re-read it,
and I don't remember anything about colors (so you may be right, I
just can't say). When I search for "green djinn" on Googal, I get
articles about "Ouktazaun (Arabian) - Evil gold-skinned Djinn which
induce extreme greed in their victims". One of the images has green
skin, however the link
https://skies-of-glass.obsidianportal.com/wiki_pages/djinni
appears to be related to a game. Which is rather far from authentic
djinn lore, IMHO.
Hey, it was a Hollywood production with a fairly substantial
budget--you really expect accuracy?
I got distracted a bit -- the point that I asked for "green djinn" and
got "greed jinn" was not brought out properly.
But, no, accuracy is never expected, especially if it is hard to find
or inconvenient to how the picture is intended to work.
I should note, however, that /The Court Jester/, in the title song,
claims to have been based on extensive research. But that was probably
just humor, as it is a very funny movie.
Paul S Person
2019-12-18 17:26:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 17 Dec 2019 13:39:23 -0500, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 17 Dec 2019 09:27:58 -0800, Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 21:51:32 -0500, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 09:40:06 -0800, Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 20:15:26 -0500, J. Clarke
<snippo>
Post by J. Clarke
Nobody's mentioned it yet so I will--Ives has at least one genuine
sfnal connection--he played Fakrash Allemash, an afrit of the green
djinn (I think I've got that right--it's been decades), in the movie
"The Brass Bottle", with Tony Randall and Barbara Eden--the plot was
basically "Tony lets a genie out and hilarity ensues" but still it's
better than a lot of Hollywood efforts from around that time.
Was the bottle sealed by Solomon?
Good question--I forget how Suleiman got into it, but it was
ascertained at one point that "Suleiman is Solomon and Solomon is
Suleiman", however it was IIRC Suleiman the Magnificent, who
historically is a different Solomon--in the movie I think we are
supposed to believe that he was the Biblical one.
Well, the /names/ are the same, just English vs transcribed Arabic.
(In transcribed Hebrew, it is Shlomoh).
<sigh> Sulieman the Magnificent was Sultan of the Ottoman Empire in
the 1500s. The Biblical Solomon was King of Israel about 2500 years
earlier.
Nonetheless, the names are the same in different languages.

And I suspect that there was more than /one/ "Suleiman" in Islamic
history. Just less Magnificent, perhaps.

Here we appear to have a genie (djinn) who happens to have the same
name as Solomon. He need not be either the King of Israel or Suleiman
the Magnificent.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
J. Clarke
2019-12-18 20:53:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 09:26:07 -0800, Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 17 Dec 2019 13:39:23 -0500, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 17 Dec 2019 09:27:58 -0800, Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 21:51:32 -0500, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 09:40:06 -0800, Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 20:15:26 -0500, J. Clarke
<snippo>
Post by J. Clarke
Nobody's mentioned it yet so I will--Ives has at least one genuine
sfnal connection--he played Fakrash Allemash, an afrit of the green
djinn (I think I've got that right--it's been decades), in the movie
"The Brass Bottle", with Tony Randall and Barbara Eden--the plot was
basically "Tony lets a genie out and hilarity ensues" but still it's
better than a lot of Hollywood efforts from around that time.
Was the bottle sealed by Solomon?
Good question--I forget how Suleiman got into it, but it was
ascertained at one point that "Suleiman is Solomon and Solomon is
Suleiman", however it was IIRC Suleiman the Magnificent, who
historically is a different Solomon--in the movie I think we are
supposed to believe that he was the Biblical one.
Well, the /names/ are the same, just English vs transcribed Arabic.
(In transcribed Hebrew, it is Shlomoh).
<sigh> Sulieman the Magnificent was Sultan of the Ottoman Empire in
the 1500s. The Biblical Solomon was King of Israel about 2500 years
earlier.
Nonetheless, the names are the same in different languages.
And I suspect that there was more than /one/ "Suleiman" in Islamic
history. Just less Magnificent, perhaps.
Here we appear to have a genie (djinn) who happens to have the same
name as Solomon. He need not be either the King of Israel or Suleiman
the Magnificent.
The djinn's name is Fakrash Allemash. He mentions, specifically,
Sulieman the Magnificent. If there is a djinn names Sulieman or
Solomon or anything of a like or similar nature, he, she, or it does
not appear in the movie.
Quadibloc
2019-12-17 20:18:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
I should note, however, that /The Court Jester/, in the title song,
claims to have been based on extensive research. But that was probably
just humor, as it is a very funny movie.
Ah, yes. The one that gave us "the flagon with the dragon has the brew that is
true".

John Savard
Quadibloc
2019-12-16 18:09:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Nobody's mentioned it yet so I will--Ives has at least one genuine
sfnal connection--he played Fakrash Allemash, an afrit of the green
djinn (I think I've got that right--it's been decades), in the movie
"The Brass Bottle", with Tony Randall and Barbara Eden--the plot was
basically "Tony lets a genie out and hilarity ensues" but still it's
better than a lot of Hollywood efforts from around that time.
And then somebody decided that Barbara Eden would make a better looking genie
than Burl Ives, and The Rest Is History!

John Savard
Paul S Person
2019-12-17 17:30:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 10:09:31 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
Nobody's mentioned it yet so I will--Ives has at least one genuine
sfnal connection--he played Fakrash Allemash, an afrit of the green
djinn (I think I've got that right--it's been decades), in the movie
"The Brass Bottle", with Tony Randall and Barbara Eden--the plot was
basically "Tony lets a genie out and hilarity ensues" but still it's
better than a lot of Hollywood efforts from around that time.
And then somebody decided that Barbara Eden would make a better looking genie
than Burl Ives, and The Rest Is History!
The Wikipedia article suggest much the same thing.

In the 60s, she pretty much had to be female. Today, things are
different.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
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