Discussion:
Font question (again)
(too old to reply)
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-07-29 04:15:46 UTC
Permalink
If rec.arts.sf.composition were still live, I would be asking
there, in default of which I'm asking here.

In my current WIP I have a scene in which my protagonist has just
been told something that shocks him, and starts hearing "in his
mind's ear" his own internal reactions (which I've put in
italics, like any other thought of his that he doesn't speak
aloud), plus answers that are either things he knows and reminds
himself of, or quotations from things other people have said to
him in earlier chapters.

I've put the latter answers into boldface for the moment. I'm
using boldface *nowhere else* in the entire work. This is *not*
_The Interior Life_ redux. :) The passage is only about a hundred
words and I don't expect to have another like it -- but I need a way
to distinguish what he's doing (sitting there looking stupid, in roman)
from what he's thinking (in italic) and how himself answers him (in
boldface, unless someone can think of something better).

I definitely do not want to pull a David Brin and surround any of
the utterances with colons or something.

Any ideas?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Bo Lindbergh
2019-07-29 04:59:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I definitely do not want to pull a David Brin and surround any of
the utterances with colons or something.
Dashes have historical support.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark#Quotation_dash>

If you're opposed to punctuation, boldface is probably the best choice.
It's definitely better than ALL CAPS.


/Bo Lindbergh
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-07-29 06:08:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bo Lindbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I definitely do not want to pull a David Brin and surround any of
the utterances with colons or something.
Dashes have historical support.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark#Quotation_dash>
If you're opposed to punctuation, boldface is probably the best choice.
It's definitely better than ALL CAPS.
Oh yes. I don't want to use dashes, because they're not in
traditional use *in English.* But I might be able to get away
with guillemets. Thank you for the link!
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Mike M
2019-07-29 05:04:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
If rec.arts.sf.composition were still live, I would be asking
there, in default of which I'm asking here.
In my current WIP I have a scene in which my protagonist has just
been told something that shocks him, and starts hearing "in his
mind's ear" his own internal reactions (which I've put in
italics, like any other thought of his that he doesn't speak
aloud), plus answers that are either things he knows and reminds
himself of, or quotations from things other people have said to
him in earlier chapters.
I've put the latter answers into boldface for the moment. I'm
using boldface *nowhere else* in the entire work. This is *not*
_The Interior Life_ redux. :) The passage is only about a hundred
words and I don't expect to have another like it -- but I need a way
to distinguish what he's doing (sitting there looking stupid, in roman)
from what he's thinking (in italic) and how himself answers him (in
boldface, unless someone can think of something better).
I definitely do not want to pull a David Brin and surround any of
the utterances with colons or something.
Any ideas?
That was Piers Anthony in his Kirlian sequence iirc. Maybe Brin did it
somewhere in his Uplift novels as well though.

I’ve seen interior thoughts (eg from mind parasites) done with em dashes,
bullet points and parentheses though, if you’d rather not go bold.
p***@hotmail.com
2019-07-29 05:48:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike M
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
If rec.arts.sf.composition were still live, I would be asking
there, in default of which I'm asking here.
In my current WIP I have a scene in which my protagonist has just
been told something that shocks him, and starts hearing "in his
mind's ear" his own internal reactions (which I've put in
italics, like any other thought of his that he doesn't speak
aloud), plus answers that are either things he knows and reminds
himself of, or quotations from things other people have said to
him in earlier chapters.
I've put the latter answers into boldface for the moment. I'm
using boldface *nowhere else* in the entire work. This is *not*
_The Interior Life_ redux. :) The passage is only about a hundred
words and I don't expect to have another like it -- but I need a way
to distinguish what he's doing (sitting there looking stupid, in roman)
from what he's thinking (in italic) and how himself answers him (in
boldface, unless someone can think of something better).
I definitely do not want to pull a David Brin and surround any of
the utterances with colons or something.
Any ideas?
That was Piers Anthony in his Kirlian sequence iirc. Maybe Brin did it
somewhere in his Uplift novels as well though.
I’ve seen interior thoughts (eg from mind parasites) done with em dashes,
bullet points and parentheses though, if you’d rather not go bold.
Not to be confused with boldly going.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-07-29 06:12:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Mike M
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
If rec.arts.sf.composition were still live, I would be asking
there, in default of which I'm asking here.
In my current WIP I have a scene in which my protagonist has just
been told something that shocks him, and starts hearing "in his
mind's ear" his own internal reactions (which I've put in
italics, like any other thought of his that he doesn't speak
aloud), plus answers that are either things he knows and reminds
himself of, or quotations from things other people have said to
him in earlier chapters.
I've put the latter answers into boldface for the moment. I'm
using boldface *nowhere else* in the entire work. This is *not*
_The Interior Life_ redux. :) The passage is only about a hundred
words and I don't expect to have another like it -- but I need a way
to distinguish what he's doing (sitting there looking stupid, in roman)
from what he's thinking (in italic) and how himself answers him (in
boldface, unless someone can think of something better).
I definitely do not want to pull a David Brin and surround any of
the utterances with colons or something.
Any ideas?
That was Piers Anthony in his Kirlian sequence iirc. Maybe Brin did it
somewhere in his Uplift novels as well though.
I’ve seen interior thoughts (eg from mind parasites) done with em dashes,
bullet points and parentheses though, if you’d rather not go bold.
Not to be confused with boldly going.
Different IP altogether!!
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-07-29 06:12:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike M
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
If rec.arts.sf.composition were still live, I would be asking
there, in default of which I'm asking here.
In my current WIP I have a scene in which my protagonist has just
been told something that shocks him, and starts hearing "in his
mind's ear" his own internal reactions (which I've put in
italics, like any other thought of his that he doesn't speak
aloud), plus answers that are either things he knows and reminds
himself of, or quotations from things other people have said to
him in earlier chapters.
I've put the latter answers into boldface for the moment. I'm
using boldface *nowhere else* in the entire work. This is *not*
_The Interior Life_ redux. :) The passage is only about a hundred
words and I don't expect to have another like it -- but I need a way
to distinguish what he's doing (sitting there looking stupid, in roman)
from what he's thinking (in italic) and how himself answers him (in
boldface, unless someone can think of something better).
I definitely do not want to pull a David Brin and surround any of
the utterances with colons or something.
Any ideas?
That was Piers Anthony in his Kirlian sequence iirc. Maybe Brin did it
somewhere in his Uplift novels as well though.
He did; particularly in _Startide Rising_; he used, geez, colons
and brackets and boldface and capitals and .... he had a LOT of
different species' speech/thoughts to represent. I neither need
nor want that.
Post by Mike M
I've seen interior thoughts (eg from mind parasites) done with em dashes,
bullet points and parentheses though, if you'd rather not go bold.
I don't want em dashes, and I'm already using parentheses to
identify the person whose words the character is remembering.
So far, guillemets are looking like the best choice, but I
haven't read all the responses yet. :)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Quadibloc
2019-07-29 05:42:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I definitely do not want to pull a David Brin and surround any of
the utterances with colons or something.
Sometimes that sort of thing makes sense. Thus, if one of your characters is
suddenly receiving a telepathic message from a dragon,

* Why do you torment me? *

putting it between asterisks is quite reasonable.

I think that, rather than boldface, small capitals are sometimes used as a
"third" printing style. Of course, they're almost as bad as putting stuff in all
caps, so boldface being better may still be true.

Some typefaces have a bold italic - if his thoughts are in italic, and these
internal replies are another form of thought to be distinguished, that might
work.

John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-07-29 06:14:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I definitely do not want to pull a David Brin and surround any of
the utterances with colons or something.
Sometimes that sort of thing makes sense. Thus, if one of your characters is
suddenly receiving a telepathic message from a dragon,
* Why do you torment me? *
putting it between asterisks is quite reasonable.
I think that, rather than boldface, small capitals are sometimes used as a
"third" printing style. Of course, they're almost as bad as putting stuff in all
caps, so boldface being better may still be true.
Some typefaces have a bold italic - if his thoughts are in italic, and these
internal replies are another form of thought to be distinguished, that might
work.
I really don't want to have to mark in a manuscript my
suggestions for typefaces (small capitals, bold italics, etc...)
As I said upthread, this is not _The Interior Life_ redux.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Alan Baker
2019-07-29 17:16:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I definitely do not want to pull a David Brin and surround any of
the utterances with colons or something.
Sometimes that sort of thing makes sense. Thus, if one of your characters is
suddenly receiving a telepathic message from a dragon,
* Why do you torment me? *
putting it between asterisks is quite reasonable.
I think that, rather than boldface, small capitals are sometimes used as a
"third" printing style. Of course, they're almost as bad as putting stuff in all
caps, so boldface being better may still be true.
You can get fonts that have a proper small caps form, so that the stroke
widths match the regular capitals (SC & OSF = "Small Caps & Old-Style
Figures)
Post by Quadibloc
Some typefaces have a bold italic - if his thoughts are in italic, and these
internal replies are another form of thought to be distinguished, that might
work.
Almost all normal typefaces in which one might set a novel have bold
italic, many have a semi-bold and semi-bold italic, which might be a
less obtrusive choice.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-07-29 18:59:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I definitely do not want to pull a David Brin and surround any of
the utterances with colons or something.
Sometimes that sort of thing makes sense. Thus, if one of your characters is
suddenly receiving a telepathic message from a dragon,
* Why do you torment me? *
putting it between asterisks is quite reasonable.
I think that, rather than boldface, small capitals are sometimes used as a
"third" printing style. Of course, they're almost as bad as putting
stuff in all
Post by Quadibloc
caps, so boldface being better may still be true.
You can get fonts that have a proper small caps form, so that the stroke
widths match the regular capitals (SC & OSF = "Small Caps & Old-Style
Figures)
Post by Quadibloc
Some typefaces have a bold italic - if his thoughts are in italic, and these
internal replies are another form of thought to be distinguished, that might
work.
Almost all normal typefaces in which one might set a novel have bold
italic, many have a semi-bold and semi-bold italic, which might be a
less obtrusive choice.
Yes, but again, that would be me telling the editor (if I ever
get that far) what fonts to tell the typesetter to use, and I've
been there and it didn't work.

So after I decided on guillemets, I searched the entire LONG list
of Special Characters known to LibreOffice, and I couldn't find
any. So I'm using < >, and if I ever get as far as an editor,
I'll say, "Actually, I was hoping for guillemets here, but my
word processor doesn't have any," and let him/her figure out
something.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
J. Clarke
2019-07-30 02:01:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I definitely do not want to pull a David Brin and surround any of
the utterances with colons or something.
Sometimes that sort of thing makes sense. Thus, if one of your characters is
suddenly receiving a telepathic message from a dragon,
* Why do you torment me? *
putting it between asterisks is quite reasonable.
I think that, rather than boldface, small capitals are sometimes used as a
"third" printing style. Of course, they're almost as bad as putting
stuff in all
Post by Quadibloc
caps, so boldface being better may still be true.
You can get fonts that have a proper small caps form, so that the stroke
widths match the regular capitals (SC & OSF = "Small Caps & Old-Style
Figures)
Post by Quadibloc
Some typefaces have a bold italic - if his thoughts are in italic, and these
internal replies are another form of thought to be distinguished, that might
work.
Almost all normal typefaces in which one might set a novel have bold
italic, many have a semi-bold and semi-bold italic, which might be a
less obtrusive choice.
Yes, but again, that would be me telling the editor (if I ever
get that far) what fonts to tell the typesetter to use, and I've
been there and it didn't work.
So after I decided on guillemets, I searched the entire LONG list
of Special Characters known to LibreOffice, and I couldn't find
any. So I'm using < >, and if I ever get as far as an editor,
I'll say, "Actually, I was hoping for guillemets here, but my
word processor doesn't have any," and let him/her figure out
something.
Try "Left-pointing double angle quotation mark" and "right-pointing
double angle quotation mark", unicode AB and BB.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-07-30 05:37:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I definitely do not want to pull a David Brin and surround any of
the utterances with colons or something.
Sometimes that sort of thing makes sense. Thus, if one of your characters is
suddenly receiving a telepathic message from a dragon,
* Why do you torment me? *
putting it between asterisks is quite reasonable.
I think that, rather than boldface, small capitals are sometimes used as a
"third" printing style. Of course, they're almost as bad as putting
stuff in all
Post by Quadibloc
caps, so boldface being better may still be true.
You can get fonts that have a proper small caps form, so that the stroke
widths match the regular capitals (SC & OSF = "Small Caps & Old-Style
Figures)
Post by Quadibloc
Some typefaces have a bold italic - if his thoughts are in italic, and these
internal replies are another form of thought to be distinguished, that might
work.
Almost all normal typefaces in which one might set a novel have bold
italic, many have a semi-bold and semi-bold italic, which might be a
less obtrusive choice.
Yes, but again, that would be me telling the editor (if I ever
get that far) what fonts to tell the typesetter to use, and I've
been there and it didn't work.
So after I decided on guillemets, I searched the entire LONG list
of Special Characters known to LibreOffice, and I couldn't find
any. So I'm using < >, and if I ever get as far as an editor,
I'll say, "Actually, I was hoping for guillemets here, but my
word processor doesn't have any," and let him/her figure out
something.
Try "Left-pointing double angle quotation mark" and "right-pointing
double angle quotation mark", unicode AB and BB.
I don't know if LibreOffice understands unicode. I know I don't.
I don't get to encode anything, the way I used to do in vi for
n/troff and, briefly thereafter, in TeX; there's a menu to pull
down and a long long grid of various special characters. I can
click on one of those and it will be added to the text. But
there are no guillemets on the grid, and it doesn't have a Search
window.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
J. Clarke
2019-07-30 22:12:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I definitely do not want to pull a David Brin and surround any of
the utterances with colons or something.
Sometimes that sort of thing makes sense. Thus, if one of your characters is
suddenly receiving a telepathic message from a dragon,
* Why do you torment me? *
putting it between asterisks is quite reasonable.
I think that, rather than boldface, small capitals are sometimes used as a
"third" printing style. Of course, they're almost as bad as putting
stuff in all
Post by Quadibloc
caps, so boldface being better may still be true.
You can get fonts that have a proper small caps form, so that the stroke
widths match the regular capitals (SC & OSF = "Small Caps & Old-Style
Figures)
Post by Quadibloc
Some typefaces have a bold italic - if his thoughts are in italic, and these
internal replies are another form of thought to be distinguished, that might
work.
Almost all normal typefaces in which one might set a novel have bold
italic, many have a semi-bold and semi-bold italic, which might be a
less obtrusive choice.
Yes, but again, that would be me telling the editor (if I ever
get that far) what fonts to tell the typesetter to use, and I've
been there and it didn't work.
So after I decided on guillemets, I searched the entire LONG list
of Special Characters known to LibreOffice, and I couldn't find
any. So I'm using < >, and if I ever get as far as an editor,
I'll say, "Actually, I was hoping for guillemets here, but my
word processor doesn't have any," and let him/her figure out
something.
Try "Left-pointing double angle quotation mark" and "right-pointing
double angle quotation mark", unicode AB and BB.
I don't know if LibreOffice understands unicode. I know I don't.
I don't get to encode anything, the way I used to do in vi for
n/troff and, briefly thereafter, in TeX; there's a menu to pull
down and a long long grid of various special characters. I can
click on one of those and it will be added to the text. But
there are no guillemets on the grid, and it doesn't have a Search
window.
I'm going through this step by step in Libreoffice on Ubuntu.

Set the font to "Liberation Serif", which on my installation is the
default.
Click the "Omega" symbol in the menu.
That should bring up a window "Special Characters"
Set the Subset to Latin 1
Look toward the bottom of the grid of characters.
A little to the right of center you should see the guillemets.
If you don't see them then in the little box that says "Hexadecimal:
U+" put in "AB" or "BB" and enter.
One or the other should then be highlighted.
Click "Insert".
David DeLaney
2019-08-03 04:40:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
I think that, rather than boldface, small capitals are sometimes used as a
"third" printing style.
Only, nowadays, for one particular character.

Dave, when that author shows you how it's done, then that's how you do it
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Thomas Koenig
2019-07-29 06:31:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
In my current WIP I have a scene in which my protagonist has just
been told something that shocks him, and starts hearing "in his
mind's ear" his own internal reactions (which I've put in
italics, like any other thought of his that he doesn't speak
aloud), plus answers that are either things he knows and reminds
himself of, or quotations from things other people have said to
him in earlier chapters.
I've put the latter answers into boldface for the moment. I'm
using boldface *nowhere else* in the entire work. This is *not*
_The Interior Life_ redux. :) The passage is only about a hundred
words and I don't expect to have another like it -- but I need a way
to distinguish what he's doing (sitting there looking stupid, in roman)
from what he's thinking (in italic) and how himself answers him (in
boldface, unless someone can think of something better).
Just a word of warning.

I've read one novel on Kindle (Grand Central Arena), which also
uses italics / no italics to differentiate between two people
talking on com. Somewhere along the chain, the markup got lost,
leaving me severely confused. Fortunately, it wasn't a big
part of the plot.

Just make sure that this does not happen to what you're writing.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I definitely do not want to pull a David Brin and surround any of
the utterances with colons or something.
For effect, you could always use « Guillemets français » .
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-07-29 15:30:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
In my current WIP I have a scene in which my protagonist has just
been told something that shocks him, and starts hearing "in his
mind's ear" his own internal reactions (which I've put in
italics, like any other thought of his that he doesn't speak
aloud), plus answers that are either things he knows and reminds
himself of, or quotations from things other people have said to
him in earlier chapters.
I've put the latter answers into boldface for the moment. I'm
using boldface *nowhere else* in the entire work. This is *not*
_The Interior Life_ redux. :) The passage is only about a hundred
words and I don't expect to have another like it -- but I need a way
to distinguish what he's doing (sitting there looking stupid, in roman)
from what he's thinking (in italic) and how himself answers him (in
boldface, unless someone can think of something better).
Just a word of warning.
I've read one novel on Kindle (Grand Central Arena), which also
uses italics / no italics to differentiate between two people
talking on com. Somewhere along the chain, the markup got lost,
leaving me severely confused. Fortunately, it wasn't a big
part of the plot.
Just make sure that this does not happen to what you're writing.
Well, as I said, AFAIK this is going to happen only in this one
paragraph. The protagonist has just been told "You, and only
you, have got to do this really dangerous thing," and his
immediate reaction is "Why me?" But he already knows why him,
and himself tells him so.

Second, I have no great expectations that this thing will sell
to the market at large anyway -- my last few novels never did,
and they wound up on my webpage, thanks to Bill Gill who formatted
them and Sean Fagan who put them on his system.

And thirdly, it's only going to be one paragraph, which I can
eyeball myself and make sure the coding went right.
Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I definitely do not want to pull a David Brin and surround any of
the utterances with colons or something.
For effect, you could always use « Guillemets français » .
At present, that is what I'm contemplating.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Robert Carnegie
2019-07-29 09:28:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
If rec.arts.sf.composition were still live, I would be asking
there, in default of which I'm asking here.
In my current WIP I have a scene in which my protagonist has just
been told something that shocks him, and starts hearing "in his
mind's ear" his own internal reactions (which I've put in
italics, like any other thought of his that he doesn't speak
aloud), plus answers that are either things he knows and reminds
himself of, or quotations from things other people have said to
him in earlier chapters.
I've put the latter answers into boldface for the moment. I'm
using boldface *nowhere else* in the entire work. This is *not*
_The Interior Life_ redux. :) The passage is only about a hundred
words and I don't expect to have another like it -- but I need a way
to distinguish what he's doing (sitting there looking stupid, in roman)
from what he's thinking (in italic) and how himself answers him (in
boldface, unless someone can think of something better).
I definitely do not want to pull a David Brin and surround any of
the utterances with colons or something.
Any ideas?
Lately I've been hearing about new "stream of
consciousness" works, which in purest form use no
punctuation at all, apparently. I'm not sure that
we need many new "stream of consciousness" stories.

An early-ish Terry Pratchett novel, _Mort_
(Death's apprentice) represents some of Mort's thought
processes as a distinct paragraph of a sort of virtual
second Mort voice in his head speaking to draw his
attention to things. This has punctuation, but quote
marks, where expected, don't appear. It isn't the
author's voice, but it is treated similarly.
Hello again, said the voice in his head.

I've also seen speech unpunctuated, or dash punctuated,
in literary or regional stories where characters do more
thinking than talking, so that forcing the unfortunate
reader to work it out themselves seems to be considered
tolerable. I don't condone this.

I think when I saw Jane Austen's unfinished _Sanditon_
(it was going to be about a sea resort; there's a new
TV version with sexy parts which I'm confident have
been exhaustively described in the publicity, so that
actually watching for that is redundant) her handwritten
punctuation was like that, too. But I don't know if
that is how it was printed.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-07-29 15:40:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
If rec.arts.sf.composition were still live, I would be asking
there, in default of which I'm asking here.
In my current WIP I have a scene in which my protagonist has just
been told something that shocks him, and starts hearing "in his
mind's ear" his own internal reactions (which I've put in
italics, like any other thought of his that he doesn't speak
aloud), plus answers that are either things he knows and reminds
himself of, or quotations from things other people have said to
him in earlier chapters.
I've put the latter answers into boldface for the moment. I'm
using boldface *nowhere else* in the entire work. This is *not*
_The Interior Life_ redux. :) The passage is only about a hundred
words and I don't expect to have another like it -- but I need a way
to distinguish what he's doing (sitting there looking stupid, in roman)
from what he's thinking (in italic) and how himself answers him (in
boldface, unless someone can think of something better).
I definitely do not want to pull a David Brin and surround any of
the utterances with colons or something.
Any ideas?
Lately I've been hearing about new "stream of
consciousness" works, which in purest form use no
punctuation at all, apparently. I'm not sure that
we need many new "stream of consciousness" stories.
Don't worry. It's just one paragraph. It's told in tight-third
POV, to the extent that nothing happens that the protagonist
doesn't observe (though he may not understand it); and I would
not attempt to write punctuation-free stream-of-consciousness of
more than one paragraph anyway, if at all.
Post by Robert Carnegie
An early-ish Terry Pratchett novel, _Mort_
(Death's apprentice) represents some of Mort's thought
processes as a distinct paragraph of a sort of virtual
second Mort voice in his head speaking to draw his
attention to things. This has punctuation, but quote
marks, where expected, don't appear. It isn't the
author's voice, but it is treated similarly.
Hello again, said the voice in his head.
Hey, if you're Pratchett, you can get away with damnear anything.
I cannot read him, with the exception of _The Unadulterated Cat_,
but a whole lot of people can and do.
Post by Robert Carnegie
I've also seen speech unpunctuated, or dash punctuated,
in literary or regional stories where characters do more
thinking than talking, so that forcing the unfortunate
reader to work it out themselves seems to be considered
tolerable. I don't condone this.
I don't think I'd ever do it, so again, don't worry.
Post by Robert Carnegie
I think when I saw Jane Austen's unfinished _Sanditon_
(it was going to be about a sea resort; there's a new
TV version with sexy parts which I'm confident have
been exhaustively described in the publicity, so that
actually watching for that is redundant) her handwritten
punctuation was like that, too. But I don't know if
that is how it was printed.
Books have been written with lots of dialogue, none of it
enclosed by punctuation marks. The one I have actually read is
_The Night of the Hunter_ by Davis Grubb (1953). And when it was
published I was eleven, and I can't have been much older when I
read it, and I had no problem with it.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Gene Wirchenko
2019-07-29 21:53:00 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 02:28:04 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<***@excite.com> wrote:

[snip]
Post by Robert Carnegie
Lately I've been hearing about new "stream of
consciousness" works, which in purest form use no
punctuation at all, apparently. I'm not sure that
we need many new "stream of consciousness" stories.
Oh, please, NO!

Who thinks in words anyway? I can echo how something would sound
if I choose to do so, but I donot think words.

In a creative writing course in high school, I once got full
marks on a question asking for the definition of
stream-of-consciousness for a diatribe about how it is impossible. I
do not remember it all, but there was the nice sequence "... but I
also think, without words, that ...".
Post by Robert Carnegie
An early-ish Terry Pratchett novel, _Mort_
(Death's apprentice) represents some of Mort's thought
processes as a distinct paragraph of a sort of virtual
second Mort voice in his head speaking to draw his
attention to things. This has punctuation, but quote
marks, where expected, don't appear. It isn't the
author's voice, but it is treated similarly.
Hello again, said the voice in his head.
I've also seen speech unpunctuated, or dash punctuated,
in literary or regional stories where characters do more
thinking than talking, so that forcing the unfortunate
reader to work it out themselves seems to be considered
tolerable. I don't condone this.
Many ways to write punctuation and represent different types of
text are simply conventions. I have a private shorthand/language in
which I have changed various rules to suit my needs. Much is simply
what we get used to.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-07-29 22:28:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 02:28:04 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
[snip]
Post by Robert Carnegie
Lately I've been hearing about new "stream of
consciousness" works, which in purest form use no
punctuation at all, apparently. I'm not sure that
we need many new "stream of consciousness" stories.
Oh, please, NO!
Who thinks in words anyway? I can echo how something would sound
if I choose to do so, but I do not think words.
Well, I do. I have a continual conversation going back and forth
between me and me, inside my head, and I have to take a Temazepam
(a "sedative hypnotic") to shut it down so I can go to sleep at
night.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
In a creative writing course in high school, I once got full
marks on a question asking for the definition of
stream-of-consciousness for a diatribe about how it is impossible. I
do not remember it all, but there was the nice sequence "... but I
also think, without words, that ...".
Okay, that's you.

Hal also, apparently, does not think in words either. He told me
that he *doesn't* have an ongoing dialogue in his head, and I was
astonished (mostly because we'd been married thirty or forty
years already and he'd never mentioned it).
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Robert Carnegie
An early-ish Terry Pratchett novel, _Mort_
(Death's apprentice) represents some of Mort's thought
processes as a distinct paragraph of a sort of virtual
second Mort voice in his head speaking to draw his
attention to things. This has punctuation, but quote
marks, where expected, don't appear. It isn't the
author's voice, but it is treated similarly.
Hello again, said the voice in his head.
I've also seen speech unpunctuated, or dash punctuated,
in literary or regional stories where characters do more
thinking than talking, so that forcing the unfortunate
reader to work it out themselves seems to be considered
tolerable. I don't condone this.
Many ways to write punctuation and represent different types of
text are simply conventions. I have a private shorthand/language in
which I have changed various rules to suit my needs. Much is simply
what we get used to.
Whatever works for you.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dimensional Traveler
2019-07-30 02:24:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 02:28:04 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
[snip]
Post by Robert Carnegie
Lately I've been hearing about new "stream of
consciousness" works, which in purest form use no
punctuation at all, apparently. I'm not sure that
we need many new "stream of consciousness" stories.
Oh, please, NO!
Who thinks in words anyway? I can echo how something would sound
if I choose to do so, but I do not think words.
Well, I do. I have a continual conversation going back and forth
between me and me, inside my head, and I have to take a Temazepam
(a "sedative hypnotic") to shut it down so I can go to sleep at
night.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
In a creative writing course in high school, I once got full
marks on a question asking for the definition of
stream-of-consciousness for a diatribe about how it is impossible. I
do not remember it all, but there was the nice sequence "... but I
also think, without words, that ...".
Okay, that's you.
Hal also, apparently, does not think in words either. He told me
that he *doesn't* have an ongoing dialogue in his head, and I was
astonished (mostly because we'd been married thirty or forty
years already and he'd never mentioned it).
Well, it is generally socially unacceptable to talk about the voices in
one's head. :)
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-07-30 05:38:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 02:28:04 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
[snip]
Post by Robert Carnegie
Lately I've been hearing about new "stream of
consciousness" works, which in purest form use no
punctuation at all, apparently. I'm not sure that
we need many new "stream of consciousness" stories.
Oh, please, NO!
Who thinks in words anyway? I can echo how something would sound
if I choose to do so, but I do not think words.
Well, I do. I have a continual conversation going back and forth
between me and me, inside my head, and I have to take a Temazepam
(a "sedative hypnotic") to shut it down so I can go to sleep at
night.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
In a creative writing course in high school, I once got full
marks on a question asking for the definition of
stream-of-consciousness for a diatribe about how it is impossible. I
do not remember it all, but there was the nice sequence "... but I
also think, without words, that ...".
Okay, that's you.
Hal also, apparently, does not think in words either. He told me
that he *doesn't* have an ongoing dialogue in his head, and I was
astonished (mostly because we'd been married thirty or forty
years already and he'd never mentioned it).
Well, it is generally socially unacceptable to talk about the voices in
one's head. :)
So sue me.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-07-30 05:46:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 02:28:04 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
[snip]
Post by Robert Carnegie
Lately I've been hearing about new "stream of
consciousness" works, which in purest form use no
punctuation at all, apparently. I'm not sure that
we need many new "stream of consciousness" stories.
Oh, please, NO!
Who thinks in words anyway? I can echo how something would sound
if I choose to do so, but I do not think words.
Well, I do. I have a continual conversation going back and forth
between me and me, inside my head, and I have to take a Temazepam
(a "sedative hypnotic") to shut it down so I can go to sleep at
night.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
In a creative writing course in high school, I once got full
marks on a question asking for the definition of
stream-of-consciousness for a diatribe about how it is impossible. I
do not remember it all, but there was the nice sequence "... but I
also think, without words, that ...".
Okay, that's you.
Hal also, apparently, does not think in words either. He told me
that he *doesn't* have an ongoing dialogue in his head, and I was
astonished (mostly because we'd been married thirty or forty
years already and he'd never mentioned it).
Well, it is generally socially unacceptable to talk about the voices in
one's head. :)
So sue me.
Actually ... I found this on disk under "quotes". No date of
posting, sorry.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Many people hear voices when no-one is there. Some of them are
called mad and are shut up in rooms where they stare at the
walls all day. Others are called writers and they do pretty
much the same thing.
-- Margaret Chittenden
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dimensional Traveler
2019-07-30 13:16:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 02:28:04 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
[snip]
Post by Robert Carnegie
Lately I've been hearing about new "stream of
consciousness" works, which in purest form use no
punctuation at all, apparently. I'm not sure that
we need many new "stream of consciousness" stories.
Oh, please, NO!
Who thinks in words anyway? I can echo how something would sound
if I choose to do so, but I do not think words.
Well, I do. I have a continual conversation going back and forth
between me and me, inside my head, and I have to take a Temazepam
(a "sedative hypnotic") to shut it down so I can go to sleep at
night.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
In a creative writing course in high school, I once got full
marks on a question asking for the definition of
stream-of-consciousness for a diatribe about how it is impossible. I
do not remember it all, but there was the nice sequence "... but I
also think, without words, that ...".
Okay, that's you.
Hal also, apparently, does not think in words either. He told me
that he *doesn't* have an ongoing dialogue in his head, and I was
astonished (mostly because we'd been married thirty or forty
years already and he'd never mentioned it).
Well, it is generally socially unacceptable to talk about the voices in
one's head. :)
So sue me.
It was more an excuse for why Hal never told you about the lack of
voices in his head. :D
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-07-30 13:50:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 02:28:04 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
[snip]
Post by Robert Carnegie
Lately I've been hearing about new "stream of
consciousness" works, which in purest form use no
punctuation at all, apparently. I'm not sure that
we need many new "stream of consciousness" stories.
Oh, please, NO!
Who thinks in words anyway? I can echo how something would sound
if I choose to do so, but I do not think words.
Well, I do. I have a continual conversation going back and forth
between me and me, inside my head, and I have to take a Temazepam
(a "sedative hypnotic") to shut it down so I can go to sleep at
night.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
In a creative writing course in high school, I once got full
marks on a question asking for the definition of
stream-of-consciousness for a diatribe about how it is impossible. I
do not remember it all, but there was the nice sequence "... but I
also think, without words, that ...".
Okay, that's you.
Hal also, apparently, does not think in words either. He told me
that he *doesn't* have an ongoing dialogue in his head, and I was
astonished (mostly because we'd been married thirty or forty
years already and he'd never mentioned it).
Well, it is generally socially unacceptable to talk about the voices in
one's head. :)
So sue me.
It was more an excuse for why Hal never told you about the lack of
voices in his head. :D
Heh. I don't think that would have stopped him. He just never
thought to mention it before.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Quadibloc
2019-08-03 05:22:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Okay, that's you.
Hal also, apparently, does not think in words either. He told me
that he *doesn't* have an ongoing dialogue in his head, and I was
astonished (mostly because we'd been married thirty or forty
years already and he'd never mentioned it).
Well, it is generally socially unacceptable to talk about the voices in
one's head. :)
So sue me.
*That's* not the kind of voice in one's head, internal narration of one's own
thoughts, that you have to worry about.

I was just reading a Washington Post piece about a Trump rally.

A woman there was quoted as saying: "God is real, and He's told many people
Trump will serve eight years as President."

She went on to say that Mike Pence would serve eight years after him, and then
his VP would serve eight years after him.

Well, if God can use the sinful pagan Babylonians as His instruments to chastise
the ancient Hebrews when they fall away from His commandments, then I suppose He
can also use people who rig voting machines, gerrymander state voting districts,
and carry out voter suppression to make this mighty work of the Almighty
possible.

However, I have my doubts that this could truly be the Will of God.

John Savard
Robert Carnegie
2019-07-30 21:07:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 02:28:04 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
[snip]
Post by Robert Carnegie
Lately I've been hearing about new "stream of
consciousness" works, which in purest form use no
punctuation at all, apparently. I'm not sure that
we need many new "stream of consciousness" stories.
Oh, please, NO!
Who thinks in words anyway? I can echo how something would sound
if I choose to do so, but I do not think words.
Well, I do. I have a continual conversation going back and forth
between me and me, inside my head, and I have to take a Temazepam
(a "sedative hypnotic") to shut it down so I can go to sleep at
night.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
In a creative writing course in high school, I once got full
marks on a question asking for the definition of
stream-of-consciousness for a diatribe about how it is impossible. I
do not remember it all, but there was the nice sequence "... but I
also think, without words, that ...".
Okay, that's you.
Hal also, apparently, does not think in words either. He told me
that he *doesn't* have an ongoing dialogue in his head, and I was
astonished (mostly because we'd been married thirty or forty
years already and he'd never mentioned it).
Well, it is generally socially unacceptable to talk about the voices in
one's head. :)
As long as they pay their share of the rent...
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-07-30 21:34:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 02:28:04 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
[snip]
Post by Robert Carnegie
Lately I've been hearing about new "stream of
consciousness" works, which in purest form use no
punctuation at all, apparently. I'm not sure that
we need many new "stream of consciousness" stories.
Oh, please, NO!
Who thinks in words anyway? I can echo how something would sound
if I choose to do so, but I do not think words.
Well, I do. I have a continual conversation going back and forth
between me and me, inside my head, and I have to take a Temazepam
(a "sedative hypnotic") to shut it down so I can go to sleep at
night.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
In a creative writing course in high school, I once got full
marks on a question asking for the definition of
stream-of-consciousness for a diatribe about how it is impossible. I
do not remember it all, but there was the nice sequence "... but I
also think, without words, that ...".
Okay, that's you.
Hal also, apparently, does not think in words either. He told me
that he *doesn't* have an ongoing dialogue in his head, and I was
astonished (mostly because we'd been married thirty or forty
years already and he'd never mentioned it).
Well, it is generally socially unacceptable to talk about the voices in
one's head. :)
As long as they pay their share of the rent...
Gosh, that's an iffy question. Talking (internally) to myself is
how I plot, so in theory the voices in my head are *once in a
while* making me a bit of money, but certainly not enough to pay
the rent. I did buy a used Dodge van that served as our SCA
tourney vehicle for many years, with the check for one story sold
to MZB (nine hundred dollars), but that was long ago and far
away.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Robert Carnegie
2019-07-30 22:49:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hal also, apparently, does not think in words either. He told me
that he *doesn't* have an ongoing dialogue in his head, and I was
astonished (mostly because we'd been married thirty or forty
years already and he'd never mentioned it).
Well, it is generally socially unacceptable to talk about the voices in
one's head. :)
As long as they pay their share of the rent...
Gosh, that's an iffy question. Talking (internally) to myself is
how I plot, so in theory the voices in my head are *once in a
while* making me a bit of money, but certainly not enough to pay
the rent.
Well, if they're in your head, they don't take up
much space!

...This is not intended as an insulting or disparaging
remark, but I realised while composing it, it could be.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-07-30 23:52:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hal also, apparently, does not think in words either. He told me
that he *doesn't* have an ongoing dialogue in his head, and I was
astonished (mostly because we'd been married thirty or forty
years already and he'd never mentioned it).
Well, it is generally socially unacceptable to talk about the voices in
one's head. :)
As long as they pay their share of the rent...
Gosh, that's an iffy question. Talking (internally) to myself is
how I plot, so in theory the voices in my head are *once in a
while* making me a bit of money, but certainly not enough to pay
the rent.
Well, if they're in your head, they don't take up
much space!
...This is not intended as an insulting or disparaging
remark, but I realised while composing it, it could be.
No offense meant, none taken. My thoughts are not angels, and
could dance on the point of a pin if they had one.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
David DeLaney
2019-08-03 04:46:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hal also, apparently, does not think in words either. He told me
that he *doesn't* have an ongoing dialogue in his head, and I was
astonished (mostly because we'd been married thirty or forty
years already and he'd never mentioned it).
It seems to be a near-universal human experience that, unless somehow pointed
out otherwise, people think that whatever's going on in THEIR head goes on in
everyone else's too. (I blame the mirror neurons...)

Dave, I have long since established through observation of others' outputs that
for me this is not in fact the case
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
nuny@bid.nes
2019-08-05 10:12:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hal also, apparently, does not think in words either. He told me
that he *doesn't* have an ongoing dialogue in his head, and I was
astonished (mostly because we'd been married thirty or forty
years already and he'd never mentioned it).
It seems to be a near-universal human experience that, unless somehow pointed
out otherwise, people think that whatever's going on in THEIR head goes on in
everyone else's too. (I blame the mirror neurons...)
They must be funhouse mirrors. Most people believe they have a theory of mind but I've met very few that get as far as "hypothesis of mind". Seems more like "opinion of mind" for most people.
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, I have long since established through observation of others' outputs
that for me this is not in fact the case
So recently I've discovered that I'm an Aspie (which explains a LOT about my life).

Is that connected to the fact that I usually think in concepts but can think in pictures or words at will?

I'm off-again/on-again writing a Star Wars/Star Trek crossover fanfic and it's proving very useful to switch thinking modes frinst to make dialogue fit the action of a scene, or to set a scene so that I can get an exposition block in relatively easily.

And no, I haven't posted any of it online other than a small chunk on Quora:

https://www.quora.com/Would-a-Borg-Cube-be-any-match-for-a-Star-Destroyer-if-the-two-ever-met-in-battle/answer/Mark-Fergerson

That's just a few of the bones, very little meat.


Mark L. Fergerson
D B Davis
2019-08-08 18:01:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hal also, apparently, does not think in words either. He told me
that he *doesn't* have an ongoing dialogue in his head, and I was
astonished (mostly because we'd been married thirty or forty
years already and he'd never mentioned it).
It seems to be a near-universal human experience that, unless somehow pointed
out otherwise, people think that whatever's going on in THEIR head goes on in
everyone else's too. (I blame the mirror neurons...)
They must be funhouse mirrors. Most people believe they have a theory
of mind but I've met very few that get as far as "hypothesis of mind".
Seems more like "opinion of mind" for most people.
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, I have long since established through observation of others' outputs
that for me this is not in fact the case
So recently I've discovered that I'm an Aspie (which explains a LOT about my life).
SAP in autism recruitment drive

SAP believes people with autism can give it an advantage

German software company SAP says it hopes to recruit hundreds
of people with autism, saying they have a unique talent for
information technology. The firm said that by 2020, 1% of its
global workforce of 65,000 employees would be people with autism.

...

Autistic spectrum disorders, including Asperger's syndrome,
are thought to affect about 1% of the population worldwide.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-22621829



Thank you,
--
Don )\._.,--....,'``.
/, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
My cat's tail tells tales. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-08 18:55:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hal also, apparently, does not think in words either. He told me
that he *doesn't* have an ongoing dialogue in his head, and I was
astonished (mostly because we'd been married thirty or forty
years already and he'd never mentioned it).
It seems to be a near-universal human experience that, unless somehow pointed
out otherwise, people think that whatever's going on in THEIR head goes on in
everyone else's too. (I blame the mirror neurons...)
They must be funhouse mirrors. Most people believe they have a theory
of mind but I've met very few that get as far as "hypothesis of mind".
Seems more like "opinion of mind" for most people.
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, I have long since established through observation of others' outputs
that for me this is not in fact the case
So recently I've discovered that I'm an Aspie (which explains a LOT about my life).
SAP in autism recruitment drive
SAP believes people with autism can give it an advantage
German software company SAP says it hopes to recruit hundreds
of people with autism, saying they have a unique talent for
information technology. The firm said that by 2020, 1% of its
global workforce of 65,000 employees would be people with autism.
...
Autistic spectrum disorders, including Asperger's syndrome,
are thought to affect about 1% of the population worldwide.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-22621829
Good luck to them. I (vaguely) remember an interview with some
Asperger's person who made a lot of money by getting *out* of the
dot.com bubble before it burst, and remarking, ~"Only somebody
with Asperger's would be willing to pay that much attention to a
lot of balance sheets."~

So neuroatypicality can be a benefit, if you find the context in
which it is. And if it's not *too* extreme.

The late Beverly Sills had a child who was somewhere well along
the spectrum, and had to be institutionalized. She visited him
regularly, and he recognized her ... until a mole on her face
became pre-cancerous and had to be removed. And then he didn't
know her any more. Once she figured that out, she'd draw a mole
on her face with an eyebrow pencil before going to visit him.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
nuny@bid.nes
2019-08-09 01:54:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hal also, apparently, does not think in words either. He told me
that he *doesn't* have an ongoing dialogue in his head, and I was
astonished (mostly because we'd been married thirty or forty
years already and he'd never mentioned it).
It seems to be a near-universal human experience that, unless somehow
pointed out otherwise, people think that whatever's going on in THEIR
head goes on in everyone else's too. (I blame the mirror neurons...)
They must be funhouse mirrors. Most people believe they have a theory
of mind but I've met very few that get as far as "hypothesis of mind".
Seems more like "opinion of mind" for most people.
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, I have long since established through observation of others' outputs
that for me this is not in fact the case
So recently I've discovered that I'm an Aspie (which explains a LOT about my life).
SAP in autism recruitment drive
SAP believes people with autism can give it an advantage
German software company SAP says it hopes to recruit hundreds
of people with autism, saying they have a unique talent for
information technology. The firm said that by 2020, 1% of its
global workforce of 65,000 employees would be people with autism.
...
Autistic spectrum disorders, including Asperger's syndrome,
are thought to affect about 1% of the population worldwide.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-22621829

Thank you,
Too late, I'm retired already.

Thanks anyway.


Mark L. Fergerson
h***@gmail.com
2019-08-09 04:31:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hal also, apparently, does not think in words either. He told me
that he *doesn't* have an ongoing dialogue in his head, and I was
astonished (mostly because we'd been married thirty or forty
years already and he'd never mentioned it).
It seems to be a near-universal human experience that, unless somehow pointed
out otherwise, people think that whatever's going on in THEIR head goes on in
everyone else's too. (I blame the mirror neurons...)
They must be funhouse mirrors. Most people believe they have a theory
of mind but I've met very few that get as far as "hypothesis of mind".
Seems more like "opinion of mind" for most people.
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, I have long since established through observation of others' outputs
that for me this is not in fact the case
So recently I've discovered that I'm an Aspie (which explains a LOT about my life).
SAP in autism recruitment drive
SAP believes people with autism can give it an advantage
German software company SAP says it hopes to recruit hundreds
of people with autism, saying they have a unique talent for
information technology. The firm said that by 2020, 1% of its
global workforce of 65,000 employees would be people with autism.
In a technical field I suspect they'll be well over that without any effort.
Titus G
2019-08-06 21:07:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 02:28:04 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
[snip]
Post by Robert Carnegie
Lately I've been hearing about new "stream of
consciousness" works, which in purest form use no
punctuation at all, apparently. I'm not sure that
we need many new "stream of consciousness" stories.
Oh, please, NO!
Who thinks in words anyway? I can echo how something would sound
if I choose to do so, but I do not think words.
Well, I do. I have a continual conversation going back and forth
between me and me, inside my head, and I have to take a Temazepam
(a "sedative hypnotic") to shut it down so I can go to sleep at
night.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
In a creative writing course in high school, I once got full
marks on a question asking for the definition of
stream-of-consciousness for a diatribe about how it is impossible. I
do not remember it all, but there was the nice sequence "... but I
also think, without words, that ...".
Okay, that's you.
Hal also, apparently, does not think in words either. He told me
that he *doesn't* have an ongoing dialogue in his head, and I was
astonished (mostly because we'd been married thirty or forty
years already and he'd never mentioned it).
snip

I saw part of a tv program about gifted children and remembered this
thread when it was stated that some children had high visual/spatial
skills and their thought in pictures controlled by the right side of the
brain attempted to grasp a total understanding, a big picture, whereas
the audio/sequential thinkers were left side of the brain controlled and
gained gradual understanding. I have not investigated this matter further.
Quadibloc
2019-07-30 02:17:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Who thinks in words anyway? I can echo how something would sound
if I choose to do so, but I donot think words.
Interesting. I think in words most of the time.

John Savard
Des
2019-08-11 11:03:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
If rec.arts.sf.composition were still live, I would be asking
there, in default of which I'm asking here.
In my current WIP I have a scene in which my protagonist has just
been told something that shocks him, and starts hearing "in his
mind's ear" his own internal reactions (which I've put in
italics, like any other thought of his that he doesn't speak
aloud), plus answers that are either things he knows and reminds
himself of, or quotations from things other people have said to
him in earlier chapters.
I've put the latter answers into boldface for the moment. I'm
using boldface *nowhere else* in the entire work. This is *not*
_The Interior Life_ redux. :) The passage is only about a hundred
words and I don't expect to have another like it -- but I need a way
to distinguish what he's doing (sitting there looking stupid, in roman)
from what he's thinking (in italic) and how himself answers him (in
boldface, unless someone can think of something better).
I definitely do not want to pull a David Brin and surround any of
the utterances with colons or something.
Any ideas?
Reverse Italic comes to mind, but you mentioned typesetting problems elsewhere, and it is not a standard font. Easy to get, if an option, search: "reverse italic font" for several free versions.

Des

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