"My Real Children" by Jo Walton

[Lynn McGuire]

"My Real Children" by Jo Walton
https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/

A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.

Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.

My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

Lynn

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Lynn McGuire
"My Real Children" by Jo Walton
   https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
confused woman.  I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
confused today".  Some days she remembers having four children and some
days she remembers having three children.  Some days she remembers the
bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
My rating:  5 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating:  4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Lynn McGuire
"My Real Children" by Jo Walton
    https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
confused woman.  I read the well printed and well bound trade
paperback published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in
England. Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and
"very confused today".  Some days she remembers having four children
and some days she remembers having three children.  Some days she
remembers the bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days
she remembers the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
My rating:  5 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating:  4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
Are you sure?  Is she?  Why am I assuming
that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
nuclear exchange" timeline?  Maybe because
television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

I assume that you read that this was an alternate history book.

In fact, this book has TWO alternate histories in it. The real history
time line is ignored by the book.

I decided not to put that in the review as it is a spoiler.

Lynn

[Paul S Person]

On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Lynn McGuire
"My Real Children" by Jo Walton
   https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
confused woman.  I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
confused today".  Some days she remembers having four children and some
days she remembers having three children.  Some days she remembers the
bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
My rating:  5 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating:  4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
is not assassinated and its results.

They aren't pretty.

[WolfFan]

Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Lynn McGuire
"My Real Children" by Jo Walton
https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
is not assassinated and its results.
They aren't pretty.

I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just
seehttps://www.pinterest.com/pin/453667362456961194/ for an example) reverted
to type?

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by WolfFan

Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Lynn McGuire
"My Real Children" by Jo Walton
https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
is not assassinated and its results.
They aren't pretty.

I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just

Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.

Has nothing to do with the pastry.

[WolfFan]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by WolfFan

Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Lynn McGuire
"My Real Children" by Jo Walton
https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
is not assassinated and its results.
They aren't pretty.

I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just

Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.
Has nothing to do with the pastry.

So... intead of being a doughnut, he was a city? This hardly seems to be an
improvement.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by WolfFan

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by WolfFan

Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Lynn McGuire
"My Real Children" by Jo Walton
https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
is not assassinated and its results.
They aren't pretty.

I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just

Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.
Has nothing to do with the pastry.

So... intead of being a doughnut, he was a city? This hardly seems to be an
improvement.

The english translation doesn't convey what the phrase meant to the
citizens of Berlin. It is a perfectly normal phrase to a German
speaker who clearly understood.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by WolfFan

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by WolfFan

Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Lynn McGuire
"My Real Children" by Jo Walton
https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
is not assassinated and its results.
They aren't pretty.

I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just

Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.
Has nothing to do with the pastry.

So... intead of being a doughnut, he was a city? This hardly seems to be an
improvement.

The english translation doesn't convey what the phrase meant to the
citizens of Berlin. It is a perfectly normal phrase to a German
speaker who clearly understood.

From Wikipedia:

While the phrase "Ich bin ein Berliner" can be understood as having a
double meaning, it is neither wrong to use it the way Kennedy did nor
was it embarrassing.[15] According to some grammar texts,[16] the indefinite
article can be omitted in German when speaking of an individual's profession
or origin but is in any case used when speaking in a figurative sense.[17][18]
Furthermore, although the word "Berliner"[14][19] has traditionally been used
for a doughnut filled with fruit jam or jelly in the north, west, and southwest
of Germany, it has never been used in Berlin itself or the surrounding region,
where the usual word is "Pfannkuchen" (literally "pancake").[20] Therefore,
no Berliner would mistake Berliner for a doughnut.

And:

The misconception appears to have originated in Len Deighton's 1983
spy novel Berlin Game, which contains the following passage,
spoken by Bernard Samson:

'Ich bin ein Berliner,' I said. It was a joke. A Berliner is
a doughnut. The day after President Kennedy made his famous
proclamation, Berlin cartoonists had a field day with talking
doughnuts.[22]

The NY Times review took it as gospel and thus an urban legend was born.

[Paul S Person]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by WolfFan

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by WolfFan

Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Lynn McGuire
"My Real Children" by Jo Walton
https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
is not assassinated and its results.
They aren't pretty.

I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just

Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.
Has nothing to do with the pastry.

So... intead of being a doughnut, he was a city? This hardly seems to be an
improvement.

The english translation doesn't convey what the phrase meant to the
citizens of Berlin. It is a perfectly normal phrase to a German
speaker who clearly understood.

While the phrase "Ich bin ein Berliner" can be understood as having a
double meaning, it is neither wrong to use it the way Kennedy did nor
was it embarrassing.[15] According to some grammar texts,[16] the indefinite
article can be omitted in German when speaking of an individual's profession
or origin but is in any case used when speaking in a figurative sense.[17][18]
Furthermore, although the word "Berliner"[14][19] has traditionally been used
for a doughnut filled with fruit jam or jelly in the north, west, and southwest
of Germany, it has never been used in Berlin itself or the surrounding region,
where the usual word is "Pfannkuchen" (literally "pancake").[20] Therefore,
no Berliner would mistake Berliner for a doughnut.
The misconception appears to have originated in Len Deighton's 1983
spy novel Berlin Game, which contains the following passage,
'Ich bin ein Berliner,' I said. It was a joke. A Berliner is
a doughnut. The day after President Kennedy made his famous
proclamation, Berlin cartoonists had a field day with talking
doughnuts.[22]
The NY Times review took it as gospel and thus an urban legend was born.

I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.

And, even if, "Ich bin Berliner" would mean "I am a resident of
Berlin" (and the transator facility says it means "I am a doughnut"),
Kennedy /didn't/ omit the "ein", rendering the grammatical argument
pointless.

So, no misconception involved. Those who heard him knew what he meant,
and what he said, but what can you expect from an Amerikaner? At least
he tried.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Paul S Person
I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.

Well, he didn't. It's a bizarre myth repeated by English speakers
who don't know German.

[William Hyde]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Paul S Person
I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.

Well, he didn't. It's a bizarre myth repeated by English speakers
who don't know German.

My professor of German, an Englishman who had lived a decade in Berlin
(our tutors, from Bavaria and Hamburg mocked his accent, but gently and
of course not in his presence) had a theory about this.

Most English speakers know nothing of any other language, and are
embarrassed by this, so take particular pleasure when another English
speaker shows the same inability. Especially someone who had a good
education. And the jelly doughnut is just ... the jelly doughnut on top.

Of course, as he spoke five languages perhaps he wasn't an expert on the
thinking of the monolingual. And, off topic, I wonder if he had a
Berlin accent in all of them?

William Hyde

[Paul S Person]

On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:57:55 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Paul S Person
I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.

Well, he didn't. It's a bizarre myth repeated by English speakers
who don't know German.

All the /evidence/ presented suggests he did.

All the counterarguments are clearly handwaving excercises.

And my point that this was known (or at least believed) well before
1983 still stands.

I experienced the tolerance of Germans for Americans who at least
/try/ to communicate in German on many occasions in the mid-70s. These
were all occasions when I got out of my depth and the mood was getting
bad when I admitted that I was, not a German, but an "amerikanische
Soldat", which calmed things down considerably.

[Paul S Person]

On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:57:55 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Paul S Person
I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.

Well, he didn't. It's a bizarre myth repeated by English speakers
who don't know German.

OK, I've had what I like to think of as "some thoughts" on this topic.

1. The grammatical information presented somewhere in this tangle
suggests that "Ich bin Berliner" means "I am of Berlin", presumably
with a noun phrase ("a native" "a resident") omitted. It also rejects
using the article, so "Ich bin ein Berliner" cannot mean "I am an of
Berlin" (which isn't true in any sense) but must be using some other
meaning of "Berliner" to which an indefinite article can apply, of
which "I am a doughnut" at least recognizes that "Berliner" is also
used for a type of pastry -- and makes sense, at least grammatically.

2. Had Kennedy said he was "of Berlin", he would have been lying, for
he was neither a native of Berlin nor a resident of Berlin. So those
insisting "Ich bin ein Berliner" means "I am of Berlin" (ignoring the
"ein") are making him out to be a liar.

3. What Kennedy meant, as pretty much everyone probably realizes, was
that he (and so, since he was Chief of State, the USA and, by
extension, NATO) were very supportive of West Berlin, surrounded as it
was by Commies. He was, IOW, expressing his solidarity with the
residents of Berlin, not claiming to be one.

4. All the hand-waving and excuse-making is from people who think that
/what he said/ must be /what he meant/. But people speaking a foreign
language tend to be limited by not being part of the corresponding
culture and so not understanding, as Prof Schickele (discoverer of PDQ
Back) puts it at one point, "all the cultural nuances and stuff". This
leaves the person(s) being spoken to figure out what was /meant/ by
what was said. In some cases, actually asking to verify that what is
thought to have been meant actually was meant is prudent; in this
case, the context of the speech makes it pretty darn obvious.

5. I view this as just one more instance of "semantic goo", which
allows anyone who wants to to claim anything that person wants to by
simply waving the arms and making excuses. Among other
characteristics.

Having a grasp of reality and semantic goo, BTW, are incompatible.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:57:55 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber

Post by Christian Weisgerber

I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.=20

Well, he didn't. It's a bizarre myth repeated by English speakers
who don't know German.

OK, I've had what I like to think of as "some thoughts" on this topic.

Give it up. You don't understand German and you're not a Berliner.

[Paul S Person]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:57:55 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber

Post by Christian Weisgerber

I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.=20

Well, he didn't. It's a bizarre myth repeated by English speakers
who don't know German.

OK, I've had what I like to think of as "some thoughts" on this topic.

Give it up. You don't understand German and you're not a Berliner.

Not only am I not a jelly donut, I am not of Berlin. That indefinite
article makes a difference! Or so I have read ... here ...
unchallenged by people who "know German".

I do understand German, to some extent. I took two years of it in
college. I was actually quite good in the late 70s/early 80s at simple
everyday interactions.

But time does seem to have passed this topic by ... for now.

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by Paul S Person
Not only am I not a jelly donut, I am not of Berlin. That indefinite
article makes a difference!

Reading this thread has made me glazed.
--scott

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Paul S Person
Not only am I not a jelly donut, I am not of Berlin. That indefinite
article makes a difference!

Reading this thread has made me glazed.
--scott

Chocolate or sugar?

[William Hyde]

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:57:55 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Paul S Person
I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.

Well, he didn't. It's a bizarre myth repeated by English speakers
who don't know German.

OK, I've had what I like to think of as "some thoughts" on this topic.
1. The grammatical information presented somewhere in this tangle
suggests that "Ich bin Berliner" means "I am of Berlin", presumably
with a noun phrase ("a native" "a resident") omitted. It also rejects
using the article, so "Ich bin ein Berliner" cannot mean "I am an of
Berlin" (which isn't true in any sense)

But then, Tony Curtis wasn't Spartacus in any sense, either.

Movie 1960, speech 1963.



William Hyde

[Paul S Person]

Post by William Hyde

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:57:55 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Paul S Person
I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.

Well, he didn't. It's a bizarre myth repeated by English speakers
who don't know German.

OK, I've had what I like to think of as "some thoughts" on this topic.
1. The grammatical information presented somewhere in this tangle
suggests that "Ich bin Berliner" means "I am of Berlin", presumably
with a noun phrase ("a native" "a resident") omitted. It also rejects
using the article, so "Ich bin ein Berliner" cannot mean "I am an of
Berlin" (which isn't true in any sense)

But then, Tony Curtis wasn't Spartacus in any sense, either.
Movie 1960, speech 1963.

An irrelevance.

When a person resorts to that, everyone else who is paying attention
knows that that person has run out of arguments.

That would depend on whether Tony Curtis based his acting on becoming
the character or not. But, in any case, he was Spartacus in the sense
of playing the role.

And saying that an actor played a role in a movie is not a nonsense
phrase (as "I am an of Berlin" is).

Well, provided the German grammitical information given in this
discussion is correct. I haven't actually pulled out my Duden to check
it.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Paul S Person
And saying that an actor played a role in a movie is not a nonsense
phrase (as "I am an of Berlin" is).
Well, provided the German grammitical information given in this
discussion is correct.

That was an _etymological_ aside.

[William Hyde]

Post by Paul S Person
.
That would depend on whether Tony Curtis based his acting on becoming
the character or not. But, in any case, he was Spartacus in the sense
of playing the role.

Kirk Douglas played Spartacus. Curtis played Antoninus, In the story
at one point Antoninus (and others) claimed "I am Spartacus", which has
meaning even though it was not true in any sense.



William Hyde

[Paul S Person]

Post by William Hyde

Post by Paul S Person
.
That would depend on whether Tony Curtis based his acting on becoming
the character or not. But, in any case, he was Spartacus in the sense
of playing the role.

Kirk Douglas played Spartacus. Curtis played Antoninus, In the story
at one point Antoninus (and others) claimed "I am Spartacus", which has
meaning even though it was not true in any sense.

Thanks for pointing that out.

It's been a long time since I saw it.

The last version I saw had that most dreaded or most desired
(depending on the result) feature -- extra scenes.

Which, in this case, had dialog that was identical to other scenes
left in the movie. After some post-production adjustment to produce
the original, no doubt. In this case, the extra scenes were not really
a positive thing. IMHO, of course.

[Mickmane]

Post by WolfFan

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by WolfFan

Post by Paul S Person
Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy
who is not assassinated and its results.
They aren't pretty.

I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just

Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.

It means "I am a person from Berlin", or, "I am a Berliner".

It does NOT mean "I am Berlin". That'd be "Ich bin Berlin".

Post by WolfFan

Post by Scott Lurndal
Has nothing to do with the pastry.

So... intead of being a doughnut, he was a city? This hardly seems to
be an improvement.

Seeing it as meaning he's a pastry rather than someone from Berlin is an
old joke.

Hey, they have pastry that's called Amerikaner (American) here.

Only imported Hamburgers though, that wasn't the local's idea. :P

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by WolfFan

Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Lynn McGuire
"My Real Children" by Jo Walton
https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
is not assassinated and its results.
They aren't pretty.

I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just

Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.
Has nothing to do with the pastry.

But, "I am a jelly doughnut" is quite funny to non Berliners.

Lynn

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by WolfFan

Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Lynn McGuire
"My Real Children" by Jo Walton
https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
is not assassinated and its results.
They aren't pretty.

I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just

Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.
Has nothing to do with the pastry.

But, "I am a jelly doughnut" is quite funny to non Berliners.

No, it's not funny at all.

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by WolfFan

Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Lynn McGuire
"My Real Children" by Jo Walton
https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
is not assassinated and its results.
They aren't pretty.

I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just

Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.
Has nothing to do with the pastry.

But, "I am a jelly doughnut" is quite funny to non Berliners.

No, it's not funny at all.

You wouldn't say that if you were a jelly doughnut.
--scott

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by WolfFan

Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Lynn McGuire
"My Real Children" by Jo Walton
https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
is not assassinated and its results.
They aren't pretty.

I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just

Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.
Has nothing to do with the pastry.

But, "I am a jelly doughnut" is quite funny to non Berliners.

No, it's not funny at all.

It was funny to my entire German class in 1975. Or was that 1976. Been
a long time ago.

Lynn

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by WolfFan

Post by Paul S Person
Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
is not assassinated and its results.
They aren't pretty.

I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just

Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.
Has nothing to do with the pastry.

But, "I am a jelly doughnut" is quite funny to non Berliners.

No, it's not funny at all.

It was funny to my entire German class in 1975. Or was that 1976. Been
a long time ago.

It wasn't funny in my German class in the 1970's. Our german teacher
taught us what the phrase meant to the Berliners who heard it,
not some wannabe comedian.

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by WolfFan

Post by Paul S Person
Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
is not assassinated and its results.
They aren't pretty.

I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just

Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.
Has nothing to do with the pastry.

But, "I am a jelly doughnut" is quite funny to non Berliners.

No, it's not funny at all.

It was funny to my entire German class in 1975. Or was that 1976. Been
a long time ago.

It wasn't funny in my German class in the 1970's. Our german teacher
taught us what the phrase meant to the Berliners who heard it,
not some wannabe comedian.

I got both explanations in German class.

Sounds like your teacher was just like my German grandmother (last name
was Harshbarger) and my German Greatgrandmothers. Not much laughter
with them, very serious people. I miss them even so. My Belgium
grandmother laughed all the time, could not cook anything besides rice
and potatoes, grew up in a dry cabin just south of here. Miss her big time.

I remember singing the "if you do not work, you will not eat" song
before supper back in the 1960s. Very serious stuff.

Lynn

[Gary R. Schmidt]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by WolfFan

Post by Paul S Person
Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
is not assassinated and its results.
They aren't pretty.

I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just

Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.
Has nothing to do with the pastry.

But, "I am a jelly doughnut" is quite funny to non Berliners.

No, it's not funny at all.

It was funny to my entire German class in 1975. Or was that 1976. Been
a long time ago.

It wasn't funny in my German class in the 1970's. Our german teacher
taught us what the phrase meant to the Berliners who heard it,
not some wannabe comedian.

It's mildly amusing to those of us who are primarily English-speaking,
whose family background is German.

All the idiots who think that "Berliner" *only* means doughnut, sigh...

My father was a Berliner, and he'd rip your lungs out if you'd tried to
tell him that meant he was a pastry. (Post-war smugglers and
black-marketers, of which he was one, didn't take being demeaned
lightly. ;-) )

Cheers,
Gary B-)

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Gary R. Schmidt
It's mildly amusing to those of us who are primarily English-speaking,
whose family background is German.
All the idiots who think that "Berliner" *only* means doughnut, sigh...

I guess they think "Berliner Zeitung" is a donut journal?

Wait until they learn about "Pariser"!

In German, -er serves as the general suffix to form adjectives from
the names of settlements, and by extension nouns referring to the
inhabitants. Now, if you know some German, you'll notice two
oddities: Those -er words don't inflect like adjectives and they
are capitalized. That's because they are fossilized nouns in the
genitive case, although they are no longer perceived as such by
modern speakers.

[Paul S Person]

Post by Scott Lurndal
Ich bin ein Berliner

According to the English-to-German translator on Bing,

"Ich bin ein Berliner" means "I am a Berliner"

and

"Berliner" means "Doughnut"

"Ich bin ein Berliner meaning", OTOH, produces ... a page of articles
desperately trying to explain that he really didn't say he was
doughnut. Even though he clearly did.

Note: all phrases/words shown in quotes were entered /without the
quotes/.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Scott Lurndal
Ich bin ein Berliner

According to the English-to-German translator on Bing,
"Ich bin ein Berliner" means "I am a Berliner"
and
"Berliner" means "Doughnut"

Not in Berlin or the surrounding region.

Post by Paul S Person
"Ich bin ein Berliner meaning", OTOH, produces ... a page of articles
desperately trying to explain that he really didn't say he was
doughnut. Even though he clearly did.

No, he did not. Please read here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Scott Lurndal
Ich bin ein Berliner

According to the English-to-German translator on Bing,
"Ich bin ein Berliner" means "I am a Berliner"
and
"Berliner" means "Doughnut"

Not in Berlin or the surrounding region.

Post by Paul S Person
"Ich bin ein Berliner meaning", OTOH, produces ... a page of articles
desperately trying to explain that he really didn't say he was
doughnut. Even though he clearly did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner

In fact the matter seems to be settled
by people contributing in this group who
speak and read German as their first
language, but Wikipedia can be edited
and I wouldn't accept that page as
a final truth, any more than I would
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covfefe>.
Which isn't to say that I dispute it
either. That it is there at all is an
act of free speech. It may be not there
twelve months from now.