Deep focus on Freemason forms found in Forbidden Planet

[Don]

We have set it down as a law to ourselves to examine
things to the bottom, and not to receive upon credit,
or reject upon probability, until these have passed a
due examination. - Bacon's Natural History.

_The Tempest_ is popularly interpreted as an allegory for Freemason
initiation [1][2]. And some Shakespearean scholars simultaneously see
_Forbidden Planet_ as an adaptation of _The Tempest_ [3][4].
Given all of the above, it's fun to forage for Freemason forms in
_Forbidden Planet_."
The link below shows some symbols spotted in the movie along with
associated commentary. Views expressed are for informational purposes
only; they do not constitute an endorsement or an approval of
Freemasonry, Shakespeare, or Bacon.

<https://crcomp.net/arts/forbidden/index.php>

Do you see other, overlooked, occult Freemason symbols in
_Forbidden Planet_? Append any additional speculative symbology you spot
to this thread.

Danke,

[Paul S Person]

Post by Don
We have set it down as a law to ourselves to examine
things to the bottom, and not to receive upon credit,
or reject upon probability, until these have passed a
due examination. - Bacon's Natural History.
_The Tempest_ is popularly interpreted as an allegory for Freemason
initiation [1][2]. And some Shakespearean scholars simultaneously see
_Forbidden Planet_ as an adaptation of _The Tempest_ [3][4].
Given all of the above, it's fun to forage for Freemason forms in
_Forbidden Planet_."

In the 50s, our teacher actually /encouraged/ us to see it because it
was based on Shakespeare.

So this is nothing new, as ideas go.

Post by Don
The link below shows some symbols spotted in the movie along with
associated commentary. Views expressed are for informational purposes
only; they do not constitute an endorsement or an approval of
Freemasonry, Shakespeare, or Bacon.
<https://crcomp.net/arts/forbidden/index.php>

As Grave's /The White Goddess/ also illustrates, when you have a bee
in your bonnet, you will find what you are looking for anywhere,
whether it is there or not.

/From Hell/, the graphic novel, was tedious (the second appendix is
the only part I really enjoyed) in part because of its long and boring
explanation of how London was laid out in Masonic symbols.

Still, it /did/ explain why /From Hell/, the movie, paused to give us
a clear view of a horse's harness: it has what the graphic novel
identifies as a Masonic symbol on it.

Post by Don
Do you see other, overlooked, occult Freemason symbols in
_Forbidden Planet_? Append any additional speculative symbology you spot
to this thread.

I wouldn't know one if I saw one. I might recognize a few that are
said to be Masonic in various films, but there is no reason to believe
that those films are correct.

[Cryptoengineer]

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Don
We have set it down as a law to ourselves to examine
things to the bottom, and not to receive upon credit,
or reject upon probability, until these have passed a
due examination. - Bacon's Natural History.
_The Tempest_ is popularly interpreted as an allegory for Freemason
initiation [1][2]. And some Shakespearean scholars simultaneously see
_Forbidden Planet_ as an adaptation of _The Tempest_ [3][4].
Given all of the above, it's fun to forage for Freemason forms in
_Forbidden Planet_."

In the 50s, our teacher actually /encouraged/ us to see it because it
was based on Shakespeare.
So this is nothing new, as ideas go.

Post by Don
The link below shows some symbols spotted in the movie along with
associated commentary. Views expressed are for informational purposes
only; they do not constitute an endorsement or an approval of
Freemasonry, Shakespeare, or Bacon.
<https://crcomp.net/arts/forbidden/index.php>

As Grave's /The White Goddess/ also illustrates, when you have a bee
in your bonnet, you will find what you are looking for anywhere,
whether it is there or not.

That's for sure. I've seen, for example, an essay with a very long and
convoluted explanation as to why 'Eyes Wide Shut' is an homage to
Scottish Rite Freemasonry.

Post by Paul S Person
/From Hell/, the graphic novel, was tedious (the second appendix is
the only part I really enjoyed) in part because of its long and boring
explanation of how London was laid out in Masonic symbols.
Still, it /did/ explain why /From Hell/, the movie, paused to give us
a clear view of a horse's harness: it has what the graphic novel
identifies as a Masonic symbol on it.

Post by Don
Do you see other, overlooked, occult Freemason symbols in
_Forbidden Planet_? Append any additional speculative symbology you spot
to this thread.

I wouldn't know one if I saw one. I might recognize a few that are
said to be Masonic in various films, but there is no reason to believe
that those films are correct.

This is true.

'From Hell' the movie is based on Alan Moore's graphic novel of the
same name.

Moore's 'From Hell', in turn, is based on 'Jack the Ripper: The
Final Solution', a 1976 "non-fiction" book by Stephen Knight, an
anti-Masonic author. It has been thoroughly discredited, but was
quite a scandal at the time, with its accusations vs the
Royal Family.

Interestingly, the film 'Murder by Decree' is also based on
Knight's book, and tells the same story, but without the woo-woo.

pt

[Paul S Person]

On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 16:34:52 -0400, Cryptoengineer

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Don
We have set it down as a law to ourselves to examine
things to the bottom, and not to receive upon credit,
or reject upon probability, until these have passed a
due examination. - Bacon's Natural History.
_The Tempest_ is popularly interpreted as an allegory for Freemason
initiation [1][2]. And some Shakespearean scholars simultaneously see
_Forbidden Planet_ as an adaptation of _The Tempest_ [3][4].
Given all of the above, it's fun to forage for Freemason forms in
_Forbidden Planet_."

In the 50s, our teacher actually /encouraged/ us to see it because it
was based on Shakespeare.
So this is nothing new, as ideas go.

Post by Don
The link below shows some symbols spotted in the movie along with
associated commentary. Views expressed are for informational purposes
only; they do not constitute an endorsement or an approval of
Freemasonry, Shakespeare, or Bacon.
<https://crcomp.net/arts/forbidden/index.php>

As Grave's /The White Goddess/ also illustrates, when you have a bee
in your bonnet, you will find what you are looking for anywhere,
whether it is there or not.

That's for sure. I've seen, for example, an essay with a very long and
convoluted explanation as to why 'Eyes Wide Shut' is an homage to
Scottish Rite Freemasonry.

Post by Paul S Person
/From Hell/, the graphic novel, was tedious (the second appendix is
the only part I really enjoyed) in part because of its long and boring
explanation of how London was laid out in Masonic symbols.
Still, it /did/ explain why /From Hell/, the movie, paused to give us
a clear view of a horse's harness: it has what the graphic novel
identifies as a Masonic symbol on it.

Post by Don
Do you see other, overlooked, occult Freemason symbols in
_Forbidden Planet_? Append any additional speculative symbology you spot
to this thread.

I wouldn't know one if I saw one. I might recognize a few that are
said to be Masonic in various films, but there is no reason to believe
that those films are correct.

This is true.
'From Hell' the movie is based on Alan Moore's graphic novel of the
same name.
Moore's 'From Hell', in turn, is based on 'Jack the Ripper: The
Final Solution', a 1976 "non-fiction" book by Stephen Knight, an
anti-Masonic author. It has been thoroughly discredited, but was
quite a scandal at the time, with its accusations vs the
Royal Family.
Interestingly, the film 'Murder by Decree' is also based on
Knight's book, and tells the same story, but without the woo-woo.

It also has Sherlock Holmes!

Then again, /From Hell/ has a character enhanced by Johnny Depp.

I have both on DVD, and enjoy them every time I see them.

[Cryptoengineer]

Post by Don
We have set it down as a law to ourselves to examine
things to the bottom, and not to receive upon credit,
or reject upon probability, until these have passed a
due examination. - Bacon's Natural History.
_The Tempest_ is popularly interpreted as an allegory for Freemason
initiation [1][2]. And some Shakespearean scholars simultaneously see
_Forbidden Planet_ as an adaptation of _The Tempest_ [3][4].
Given all of the above, it's fun to forage for Freemason forms in
_Forbidden Planet_."
The link below shows some symbols spotted in the movie along with
associated commentary. Views expressed are for informational purposes
only; they do not constitute an endorsement or an approval of
Freemasonry, Shakespeare, or Bacon.
<https://crcomp.net/arts/forbidden/index.php>
Do you see other, overlooked, occult Freemason symbols in
_Forbidden Planet_? Append any additional speculative symbology you spot
to this thread.
Danke,

Whoo boy. You're playing in *my* house now.

I'm a Freemason, and have been one for over 35 years.
I know a thing or two.

I'm going to accept, as everyone does, that Forbidden Planet is
a homage to The Tempest.

The 'popular interpretation' is better characterized as 'a couple
of people wrote speculative essays'.

Freemasonry is remarkably free of canon, and there
is complete freedom for any Mason to write any speculation about it he
wants, without fear of sanction, unless he reveals a very small number
of passwords, etc - all the 'real secrets' would fit on the 3x5 filecard
with room to spare.

I have, for example, a book claiming that Stonehenge was constructed as
a Masonic temple. This is nonsense, but the author didn't get in
trouble.

There's a very long cottage industry of claiming that this or that
work of art contains Masonic dogwhistles. Usually they're not supported.

In the case of Forbidden Planet, the things the linked essay claims
as 'Masonic forms' don't appear in the play - they were added for
the movie. Certainly, Shakespeare didn't put them there.

As to whether they were actually intended to invoke Freemasonry, I
can't rule it out. But its highly speculative, and I strongly
doubt it. Some are too strained (the Krell doorways), some have errors
(the staircase), some have far more mundane explanations (Cookies
apron, the celestial globe), and some are just too common to require
a Masonic explanation (the star blowing up).

[Prediction, based on years of trying to debunk nonsense about
Freemasonry. Don will say some combination of:

* You're low level, and don't know the real secrets.
* You're high level, and are hiding the real secrets.
* My internet sources are better than your lived experience.

pt

[Don]

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Don
We have set it down as a law to ourselves to examine
things to the bottom, and not to receive upon credit,
or reject upon probability, until these have passed a
due examination. - Bacon's Natural History.
_The Tempest_ is popularly interpreted as an allegory for Freemason
initiation [1][2]. And some Shakespearean scholars simultaneously see
_Forbidden Planet_ as an adaptation of _The Tempest_ [3][4].
Given all of the above, it's fun to forage for Freemason forms in
_Forbidden Planet_."
The link below shows some symbols spotted in the movie along with
associated commentary. Views expressed are for informational purposes
only; they do not constitute an endorsement or an approval of
Freemasonry, Shakespeare, or Bacon.
<https://crcomp.net/arts/forbidden/index.php>
Do you see other, overlooked, occult Freemason symbols in
_Forbidden Planet_? Append any additional speculative symbology you spot
to this thread.

Whoo boy. You're playing in *my* house now.
I'm a Freemason, and have been one for over 35 years.
I know a thing or two.
I'm going to accept, as everyone does, that Forbidden Planet is
a homage to The Tempest.
The 'popular interpretation' is better characterized as 'a couple
of people wrote speculative essays'.
Freemasonry is remarkably free of canon, and there
is complete freedom for any Mason to write any speculation about it he
wants, without fear of sanction, unless he reveals a very small number
of passwords, etc - all the 'real secrets' would fit on the 3x5 filecard
with room to spare.
I have, for example, a book claiming that Stonehenge was constructed as
a Masonic temple. This is nonsense, but the author didn't get in
trouble.
There's a very long cottage industry of claiming that this or that
work of art contains Masonic dogwhistles. Usually they're not supported.
In the case of Forbidden Planet, the things the linked essay claims
as 'Masonic forms' don't appear in the play - they were added for
the movie. Certainly, Shakespeare didn't put them there.
As to whether they were actually intended to invoke Freemasonry, I
can't rule it out. But its highly speculative, and I strongly
doubt it. Some are too strained (the Krell doorways), some have errors
(the staircase), some have far more mundane explanations (Cookies
apron, the celestial globe), and some are just too common to require
a Masonic explanation (the star blowing up).
[Prediction, based on years of trying to debunk nonsense about
* You're low level, and don't know the real secrets.
* You're high level, and are hiding the real secrets.
* My internet sources are better than your lived experience.

Please post greater detail about your "winding staircase" grievance.

On a happier note, it was fun to discover the Forty-seventh Problem of
Euclid staring at me right in the face from the chalkboard! It tickles
me to pull Euclid into my Masonic mosaic in the form of a new Figure.

Perhaps a wise guy can pull a pattern, a potential pièce de résistance,
out of this paper?

<Loading Image...>

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.

[Cryptoengineer]

Post by Don

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Don
We have set it down as a law to ourselves to examine
things to the bottom, and not to receive upon credit,
or reject upon probability, until these have passed a
due examination. - Bacon's Natural History.
_The Tempest_ is popularly interpreted as an allegory for Freemason
initiation [1][2]. And some Shakespearean scholars simultaneously see
_Forbidden Planet_ as an adaptation of _The Tempest_ [3][4].
Given all of the above, it's fun to forage for Freemason forms in
_Forbidden Planet_."
The link below shows some symbols spotted in the movie along with
associated commentary. Views expressed are for informational purposes
only; they do not constitute an endorsement or an approval of
Freemasonry, Shakespeare, or Bacon.
<https://crcomp.net/arts/forbidden/index.php>
Do you see other, overlooked, occult Freemason symbols in
_Forbidden Planet_? Append any additional speculative symbology you spot
to this thread.

Whoo boy. You're playing in *my* house now.
I'm a Freemason, and have been one for over 35 years.
I know a thing or two.
I'm going to accept, as everyone does, that Forbidden Planet is
a homage to The Tempest.
The 'popular interpretation' is better characterized as 'a couple
of people wrote speculative essays'.
Freemasonry is remarkably free of canon, and there
is complete freedom for any Mason to write any speculation about it he
wants, without fear of sanction, unless he reveals a very small number
of passwords, etc - all the 'real secrets' would fit on the 3x5 filecard
with room to spare.
I have, for example, a book claiming that Stonehenge was constructed as
a Masonic temple. This is nonsense, but the author didn't get in
trouble.
There's a very long cottage industry of claiming that this or that
work of art contains Masonic dogwhistles. Usually they're not supported.
In the case of Forbidden Planet, the things the linked essay claims
as 'Masonic forms' don't appear in the play - they were added for
the movie. Certainly, Shakespeare didn't put them there.
As to whether they were actually intended to invoke Freemasonry, I
can't rule it out. But its highly speculative, and I strongly
doubt it. Some are too strained (the Krell doorways), some have errors
(the staircase), some have far more mundane explanations (Cookies
apron, the celestial globe), and some are just too common to require
a Masonic explanation (the star blowing up).
[Prediction, based on years of trying to debunk nonsense about
* You're low level, and don't know the real secrets.
* You're high level, and are hiding the real secrets.
* My internet sources are better than your lived experience.

Please post greater detail about your "winding staircase" grievance.
On a happier note, it was fun to discover the Forty-seventh Problem of
Euclid staring at me right in the face from the chalkboard! It tickles
me to pull Euclid into my Masonic mosaic in the form of a new Figure.
Perhaps a wise guy can pull a pattern, a potential pièce de résistance,
out of this paper?
<https://crcomp.net/arts/forbidden/paper.png>

The staircase need another flight, of 7 steps.

Again, the main problem with trying to to use the movie to
connect Shakespeare to the Masons that none of these
claimed 'tells' in the film appear in the play.

Pt

[Don]

<snip>

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Don
Please post greater detail about your "winding staircase" grievance.
On a happier note, it was fun to discover the Forty-seventh Problem of
Euclid staring at me right in the face from the chalkboard! It tickles
me to pull Euclid into my Masonic mosaic in the form of a new Figure.
Perhaps a wise guy can pull a pattern, a potential pièce de résistance,
out of this paper?
<https://crcomp.net/arts/forbidden/paper.png>

The staircase need another flight, of 7 steps.
Again, the main problem with trying to to use the movie to
connect Shakespeare to the Masons that none of these
claimed 'tells' in the film appear in the play.

Perhaps Hollywood left out the last seven steps as an ... innovation?
Seven steps sacrificed for the sake of framing, or something?

Regardless, there's a misunderstanding. My current focus is to find
Freemason forms in _Forbidden Planet_ - for the fun of it. Intention
is irrelevant to this thread - it doesn't seek to prove a connection
between Freemasonry and Shakespeare. Other people's arguments about a
connection purely provide pretext. Otherwise readers would wonder
why Freemason forms are sought in _Forbidden Planet_.

Strickly speaking, the staircase and Euclid are both legend:

EUCLID. The masonic legend which refers to Euclid is altogether
historically untrue. It is really a philosophical myth intended
to convey a masonic truth.

WINDING STAIRS, LEGEND OF. A legend in the Fellow Craft's degree
having no historical truth, but being simply a philosophical
myth or legendary symbol intended to communicate a masonic
dogma.

The Symbolism of Freemasonry
<https://www.gutenberg.org/files/11937/11937-h/11937-h.htm#index>

Cookie's apron is cringe-worthy. But sometimes you must pander to
readers. In this case to readers who, at best, recognize only one
symbol: the apron.

The Blazing Star provides a tentative origin for the space object
explosion climax cliche.

Danke,

[Cryptoengineer]

Post by Don
<snip>

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Don
Please post greater detail about your "winding staircase" grievance.
On a happier note, it was fun to discover the Forty-seventh Problem of
Euclid staring at me right in the face from the chalkboard! It tickles
me to pull Euclid into my Masonic mosaic in the form of a new Figure.
Perhaps a wise guy can pull a pattern, a potential pièce de résistance,
out of this paper?
<https://crcomp.net/arts/forbidden/paper.png>

The staircase need another flight, of 7 steps.
Again, the main problem with trying to to use the movie to
connect Shakespeare to the Masons that none of these
claimed 'tells' in the film appear in the play.

Perhaps Hollywood left out the last seven steps as an ... innovation?
Seven steps sacrificed for the sake of framing, or something?

"My piece of evidence has been shown to be deficient, but I'm
going to insist it is valid anyway."

Post by Don
Regardless, there's a misunderstanding. My current focus is to find
Freemason forms in _Forbidden Planet_ - for the fun of it. Intention
is irrelevant to this thread - it doesn't seek to prove a connection
between Freemasonry and Shakespeare. Other people's arguments about a
connection purely provide pretext. Otherwise readers would wonder
why Freemason forms are sought in _Forbidden Planet_.

OK, fine. So, who do you think inserted these alleged 'Masonic' tells?

Post by Don
EUCLID. The masonic legend which refers to Euclid is altogether
historically untrue. It is really a philosophical myth intended
to convey a masonic truth.
WINDING STAIRS, LEGEND OF. A legend in the Fellow Craft's degree
having no historical truth, but being simply a philosophical
myth or legendary symbol intended to communicate a masonic
dogma.
The Symbolism of Freemasonry
<https://www.gutenberg.org/files/11937/11937-h/11937-h.htm#index>

Absolutely. Freemasonry as we recognize it today grew organically out
of the tail end of the medieval Mason's Guilds during the 1500s and
1600s. We know its all made up. You occasionally find Masons who think
that the order really originated at the building of King Solomon's
Temple, but they're looked at a bit like Young Earth Creationists.

Post by Don
Cookie's apron is cringe-worthy. But sometimes you must pander to
readers. In this case to readers who, at best, recognize only one
symbol: the apron.

No one 'reads' "forbidden Plant". Its a movie. But your point remains.
Sometimes a cook's apron is just a cook's apron.

Post by Don
The Blazing Star provides a tentative origin for the space object
explosion climax cliche.

In the movie, its a planet that explodes, not a star. Yes, its a
bit of a trope now. 2010 is another good example.

There's a very long history of people claiming to find Masonic
allusions in things. Nearly all of it is pure apophenia.

Examples:

* I have a book that tries to prove that Stonehenge
is an ancient Masonic temple

* A lot of conspiracy theorists claim the two World Trade Center
towers were an allusion to a pair of pillars in Freemasonry,
and that 9/11 was somehow a Masonic ritual.

* Here's an attempt, at great length, and with
an amazing level of effort, to 'prove' that the film
'Eyes Wide Shut' is an allegory of what the author thinks
is in the Scottish Rite.

https://33degreesofeyeswideshut.wordpress.com/

pt

[Don]

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Don
<snip>

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Don
Please post greater detail about your "winding staircase" grievance.
On a happier note, it was fun to discover the Forty-seventh Problem of
Euclid staring at me right in the face from the chalkboard! It tickles
me to pull Euclid into my Masonic mosaic in the form of a new Figure.
Perhaps a wise guy can pull a pattern, a potential pièce de résistance,
out of this paper?
<https://crcomp.net/arts/forbidden/paper.png>

The staircase need another flight, of 7 steps.
Again, the main problem with trying to to use the movie to
connect Shakespeare to the Masons that none of these
claimed 'tells' in the film appear in the play.

Perhaps Hollywood left out the last seven steps as an ... innovation?
Seven steps sacrificed for the sake of framing, or something?

"My piece of evidence has been shown to be deficient, but I'm
going to insist it is valid anyway."

Post by Don
Regardless, there's a misunderstanding. My current focus is to find
Freemason forms in _Forbidden Planet_ - for the fun of it. Intention
is irrelevant to this thread - it doesn't seek to prove a connection
between Freemasonry and Shakespeare. Other people's arguments about a
connection purely provide pretext. Otherwise readers would wonder
why Freemason forms are sought in _Forbidden Planet_.

OK, fine. So, who do you think inserted these alleged 'Masonic' tells?

Post by Don
EUCLID. The masonic legend which refers to Euclid is altogether
historically untrue. It is really a philosophical myth intended
to convey a masonic truth.
WINDING STAIRS, LEGEND OF. A legend in the Fellow Craft's degree
having no historical truth, but being simply a philosophical
myth or legendary symbol intended to communicate a masonic
dogma.
The Symbolism of Freemasonry
<https://www.gutenberg.org/files/11937/11937-h/11937-h.htm#index>

Absolutely. Freemasonry as we recognize it today grew organically out
of the tail end of the medieval Mason's Guilds during the 1500s and
1600s. We know its all made up. You occasionally find Masons who think
that the order really originated at the building of King Solomon's
Temple, but they're looked at a bit like Young Earth Creationists.

Post by Don
Cookie's apron is cringe-worthy. But sometimes you must pander to
readers. In this case to readers who, at best, recognize only one
symbol: the apron.

No one 'reads' "forbidden Plant". Its a movie. But your point remains.
Sometimes a cook's apron is just a cook's apron.

Post by Don
The Blazing Star provides a tentative origin for the space object
explosion climax cliche.

In the movie, its a planet that explodes, not a star. Yes, its a
bit of a trope now. 2010 is another good example.
There's a very long history of people claiming to find Masonic
allusions in things. Nearly all of it is pure apophenia.
* I have a book that tries to prove that Stonehenge
is an ancient Masonic temple
* A lot of conspiracy theorists claim the two World Trade Center
towers were an allusion to a pair of pillars in Freemasonry,
and that 9/11 was somehow a Masonic ritual.
* Here's an attempt, at great length, and with
an amazing level of effort, to 'prove' that the film
'Eyes Wide Shut' is an allegory of what the author thinks
is in the Scottish Rite.
https://33degreesofeyeswideshut.wordpress.com/

The Freemason-Shakespeare-Bacon nexus falls outside of this thread's
scope. It's an argument for another day.

In this thread "readers" refers to people who read my commentary, either
here, on usenet, or at my website.

As to why _Forbidden Planet_ uses Freemason symbology, only the
storyboard's muse knows for certain. It's superb symbology, effectively
in the public domain, free for the taking, so why not use it if it fits?

Either the director or the cinematographer arguably sought to portray
the Krell underground infrastructure as a temple. Then used Masonic
symbols every step of the way from Morbius' study to the door of the
Krell lab. The symbols are so heavy-handed as to be impossible for me
to ignore. YMMV.

My own apophenia ambition to find a Freemason symbol, any symbol at all,
within the "temple" amounted to nothing. It was the same story with the
saucer and its environs. Nothing to show for it, other than an apron.

Danke,

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Don
Regardless, there's a misunderstanding. My current focus is to find
Freemason forms in _Forbidden Planet_ - for the fun of it. Intention
is irrelevant to this thread - it doesn't seek to prove a connection
between Freemasonry and Shakespeare. Other people's arguments about a
connection purely provide pretext. Otherwise readers would wonder
why Freemason forms are sought in _Forbidden Planet_.

OK, fine. So, who do you think inserted these alleged 'Masonic' tells?

Masons, of course.

Not only that, the spaceship itself used in the film was made of masonite.

Post by Cryptoengineer
No one 'reads' "forbidden Plant". Its a movie. But your point remains.
Sometimes a cook's apron is just a cook's apron.

You know, that is a great title for a book about weed smuggling.
--scott

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Don
Regardless, there's a misunderstanding. My current focus is to find
Freemason forms in _Forbidden Planet_ - for the fun of it. Intention
is irrelevant to this thread - it doesn't seek to prove a connection
between Freemasonry and Shakespeare. Other people's arguments about a
connection purely provide pretext. Otherwise readers would wonder
why Freemason forms are sought in _Forbidden Planet_.

OK, fine. So, who do you think inserted these alleged 'Masonic' tells?

Masons, of course.
Not only that, the spaceship itself used in the film was made of masonite.

Post by Cryptoengineer
No one 'reads' "forbidden Plant". Its a movie. But your point remains.
Sometimes a cook's apron is just a cook's apron.

You know, that is a great title for a book about weed smuggling.

I disagree.
How about _The Hash on the Borderland_?

[Michael F. Stemper]

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Cryptoengineer
No one 'reads' "forbidden Plant". Its a movie. But your point remains.
Sometimes a cook's apron is just a cook's apron.

You know, that is a great title for a book about weed smuggling.

I disagree.
How about _The Hash on the Borderland_?

What about Simak's _All Flesh is Grass_?

[Kevrob]

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Cryptoengineer
No one 'reads' "forbidden Plant". Its a movie. But your point remains.
Sometimes a cook's apron is just a cook's apron.

You know, that is a great title for a book about weed smuggling.

I disagree.
How about _The Hash on the Borderland_?

What about Simak's _All Flesh is Grass_?

Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea used Masonic tropes.

Wilson wrote this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Historical_Illuminatus_Chronicles

One of the books was even called "The Widow's Son."

[Cryptoengineer]

Post by Kevrob

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Cryptoengineer
No one 'reads' "forbidden Plant". Its a movie. But your point remains.
Sometimes a cook's apron is just a cook's apron.

You know, that is a great title for a book about weed smuggling.

I disagree.
How about _The Hash on the Borderland_?

What about Simak's _All Flesh is Grass_?

Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea used Masonic tropes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Historical_Illuminatus_Chronicles
One of the books was even called "The Widow's Son."

RAW's works were quite influential on me as a young man.

Pt

[Paul S Person]

Post by Don
<snip>

<snip much more>

Post by Don
Cookie's apron is cringe-worthy. But sometimes you must pander to
readers. In this case to readers who, at best, recognize only one
symbol: the apron.

And a cook wearing an apron is so totally unheard that it /must/ be a
symbol of something, right? No cook in all of recorded history ever
wore an apron unless it was symbolic?

Given their origin (historical or mythological, doesn't matter), I
would say that a bricklayers' apron and a cook's apron are similar but
nonetheless distinct.

[Cryptoengineer]

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Don
<snip>

<snip much more>

Post by Don
Cookie's apron is cringe-worthy. But sometimes you must pander to
readers. In this case to readers who, at best, recognize only one
symbol: the apron.

And a cook wearing an apron is so totally unheard that it /must/ be a
symbol of something, right? No cook in all of recorded history ever
wore an apron unless it was symbolic?
Given their origin (historical or mythological, doesn't matter), I
would say that a bricklayers' apron and a cook's apron are similar but
nonetheless distinct.

Operative Mason's aprons are quite large, and made of heavy leather
or cloth. Early Freemason's aprons were similar:
Loading Image...

Modern operative mason's aprons are still like that:
https://dungarees.com/carhartt-103439-apron?&cs=BRN&size=OFA&cid=1161

The modern speculative Mason's intiatory apron is made of white
lambskin, and much squarer. In American lodges, most sideliners
will be wearing a cloth apron from the lodge stock.

Loading Image...

The young man with the glasses in the front row is wearing a
lambskin apron, and the man to the right of him is wearing a stock
apron. The more fancy ones with blue embroidery are officers.

Cookie's apron isn't all that far from that, but is too large, and
lacking a flap.

Still, Occam's Razor suggests he's wearing it for cooking related
reasons.

pt

[John Savard]

I didn't have to know anything about Freemasonry to suspect the
original post was nonsense.
However, what little I do know allowed me to spot the references to
Freemasonry in Robert A. Heinlein's story "If This Goes On...".
So Freemasonry has been referenced in SF.

John Savard

[David Duffy]

Post by John Savard
I didn't have to know anything about Freemasonry to suspect the
original post was nonsense.
However, what little I do know allowed me to spot the references to
Freemasonry in Robert A. Heinlein's story "If This Goes On...".
So Freemasonry has been referenced in SF.

I am suspicious that there might be references to Freemasonry in
Ada Palmer's _Terra Ignota_ series.

[Titus G]

Post by David Duffy

Post by John Savard
I didn't have to know anything about Freemasonry to suspect the
original post was nonsense.
However, what little I do know allowed me to spot the references to
Freemasonry in Robert A. Heinlein's story "If This Goes On...".
So Freemasonry has been referenced in SF.

I am suspicious that there might be references to Freemasonry in
Ada Palmer's _Terra Ignota_ series.

I know little about Freemasonry but Terra Ignota did feature a secret
society amongst the aristocracy that placed loyalty above principle.
However women were rated more highly than kitchen appliances.
And obedience wasn't enforced with ritual.

[Cryptoengineer]

Post by Titus G

Post by David Duffy

Post by John Savard
I didn't have to know anything about Freemasonry to suspect the
original post was nonsense.
However, what little I do know allowed me to spot the references to
Freemasonry in Robert A. Heinlein's story "If This Goes On...".
So Freemasonry has been referenced in SF.

I am suspicious that there might be references to Freemasonry in
Ada Palmer's _Terra Ignota_ series.

I know little about Freemasonry but Terra Ignota did feature a secret
society amongst the aristocracy that placed loyalty above principle.
However women were rated more highly than kitchen appliances.
And obedience wasn't enforced with ritual.

Your first statemeny 'I know little about freemasonry' is correct, and
the rest the paragraph gives examples proving that.

Freemasonry has members from all classes - the dues are pretty low. Yes,
we have aristocrats. We also have truck drivers.

Loyalty is encouraged, but not the extent doing wrong by non-members.

Women are honored, they just can't join regular Masonry. There are a
number of options for them, such as Easter Star, and there's growing
appreciation and cooperation with women's groups such as hfaf.org
and owf.org.

Obedience? To who? For what? You think someone is giving orders?
If someone doesn't like something, they can easily quit.

pt

[Cryptoengineer]

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Titus G

Post by David Duffy

Post by John Savard
I didn't have to know anything about Freemasonry to suspect the
original post was nonsense.
However, what little I do know allowed me to spot the references to
Freemasonry in Robert A. Heinlein's story "If This Goes On...".
So Freemasonry has been referenced in SF.

I am suspicious that there might be references to Freemasonry in
Ada Palmer's _Terra Ignota_ series.

I know little about Freemasonry but Terra Ignota did feature a secret
society amongst the aristocracy that placed loyalty above principle.
However women were rated more highly than kitchen appliances.
And obedience wasn't enforced with ritual.

Your first statemeny 'I know little about freemasonry' is correct, and
the rest the paragraph gives examples proving that.
Freemasonry has members from all classes - the dues are pretty low. Yes,
we have aristocrats. We also have truck drivers.
Loyalty is encouraged, but not the extent doing wrong by non-members.
Women are honored, they just can't join regular Masonry. There are a
number of options for them, such as Easter Star, and there's growing
appreciation and cooperation with women's groups such as hfaf.org
and owf.org.
Obedience? To who? For what? You think someone is giving orders?
If someone doesn't like something, they can easily quit.

Blanked on the url for the Order of Women Freemasons.
Its https://www.owf.org.uk/

pt

[Paul S Person]

On Mon, 3 Jun 2024 17:21:10 -0400, Cryptoengineer

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Titus G

Post by David Duffy

Post by John Savard
I didn't have to know anything about Freemasonry to suspect the
original post was nonsense.
However, what little I do know allowed me to spot the references to
Freemasonry in Robert A. Heinlein's story "If This Goes On...".
So Freemasonry has been referenced in SF.

I am suspicious that there might be references to Freemasonry in
Ada Palmer's _Terra Ignota_ series.

I know little about Freemasonry but Terra Ignota did feature a secret
society amongst the aristocracy that placed loyalty above principle.
However women were rated more highly than kitchen appliances.
And obedience wasn't enforced with ritual.

Your first statemeny 'I know little about freemasonry' is correct, and
the rest the paragraph gives examples proving that.
Freemasonry has members from all classes - the dues are pretty low. Yes,
we have aristocrats. We also have truck drivers.
Loyalty is encouraged, but not the extent doing wrong by non-members.
Women are honored, they just can't join regular Masonry. There are a
number of options for them, such as Easter Star, and there's growing
appreciation and cooperation with women's groups such as hfaf.org
and owf.org.
Obedience? To who? For what? You think someone is giving orders?
If someone doesn't like something, they can easily quit.

Blanked on the url for the Order of Women Freemasons.
Its https://www.owf.org.uk/

I suspect "Easter Star" was not quite right either.

[Titus G]

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Titus G

Post by David Duffy

Post by John Savard
I didn't have to know anything about Freemasonry to suspect the
original post was nonsense.
However, what little I do know allowed me to spot the references to
Freemasonry in Robert A. Heinlein's story "If This Goes On...".
So Freemasonry has been referenced in SF.

I am suspicious that there might be references to Freemasonry in
Ada Palmer's _Terra Ignota_ series.

I know little about Freemasonry but Terra Ignota did feature a secret
society amongst the aristocracy that placed loyalty above principle.
However women were rated more highly than kitchen appliances.
And obedience wasn't enforced with ritual.

Your first statemeny 'I know little about freemasonry' is correct, and
the rest the paragraph gives examples proving that.
Freemasonry has members from all classes - the dues are pretty low. Yes,
we have aristocrats. We also have truck drivers.

You have misunderstood. I will elaborate. There are overt references to
Freemasonry in Terra Ignota though I assumed that the secret society
aspect alluded to by David Duffy is referring specifically to the covert
aristocratic group in Terra Ignota rather than aristocracy membership
being a prerequisite applicable to Freemasonry membership in general.

Post by Cryptoengineer
Loyalty is encouraged, but not the extent doing wrong by non-members.

The Freemason stereotype, (where there is smoke, there is fire), values
loyalty above principle. The literary cliche is a Masonic judge excusing
a Masonic accused but influence in commerce would be more prevalent.

Post by Cryptoengineer
Women are honored, they just can't join regular Masonry.

Nor can other honoured household appliances :p

[David Duffy]

Post by Titus G

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Titus G

Post by David Duffy

Post by John Savard
I didn't have to know anything about Freemasonry to suspect the
original post was nonsense.
However, what little I do know allowed me to spot the references to
Freemasonry in Robert A. Heinlein's story "If This Goes On...".
So Freemasonry has been referenced in SF.

I am suspicious that there might be references to Freemasonry in
Ada Palmer's _Terra Ignota_ series.

I know little about Freemasonry but Terra Ignota did feature a secret
society amongst the aristocracy that placed loyalty above principle.
However women were rated more highly than kitchen appliances.
And obedience wasn't enforced with ritual.

Your first statemeny 'I know little about freemasonry' is correct, and
the rest the paragraph gives examples proving that.
Freemasonry has members from all classes - the dues are pretty low. Yes,
we have aristocrats. We also have truck drivers.

You have misunderstood. I will elaborate. There are overt references to
Freemasonry in Terra Ignota though I assumed that the secret society
aspect alluded to by David Duffy is referring specifically to the covert
aristocratic group in Terra Ignota rather than aristocracy membership
being a prerequisite applicable to Freemasonry membership in general.

I'm sorry I started this ;) I was alluding to the Masonic Hive (3.1B members),
run by a neo-Latin speaking emperor. Our narrator says:

"Here once again, reader, we manage to both believe and not believe. We
say we are not so gullible as to accept the propaganda that the Masons
are as ancient as the cults of Mithras and Orpheus. We say that we do
not believe they conspired from the shadows, guiding human progress for
millennia before the Church War???s chaos...But something inside us
can???t believe it???s all invention. It feels so ancient..."

[Don]

Post by David Duffy

Post by Titus G

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Titus G

Post by David Duffy

Post by John Savard
I didn't have to know anything about Freemasonry to suspect the
original post was nonsense.
However, what little I do know allowed me to spot the references to
Freemasonry in Robert A. Heinlein's story "If This Goes On...".
So Freemasonry has been referenced in SF.

I am suspicious that there might be references to Freemasonry in
Ada Palmer's _Terra Ignota_ series.

I know little about Freemasonry but Terra Ignota did feature a secret
society amongst the aristocracy that placed loyalty above principle.
However women were rated more highly than kitchen appliances.
And obedience wasn't enforced with ritual.

Your first statemeny 'I know little about freemasonry' is correct, and
the rest the paragraph gives examples proving that.
Freemasonry has members from all classes - the dues are pretty low. Yes,
we have aristocrats. We also have truck drivers.

You have misunderstood. I will elaborate. There are overt references to
Freemasonry in Terra Ignota though I assumed that the secret society
aspect alluded to by David Duffy is referring specifically to the covert
aristocratic group in Terra Ignota rather than aristocracy membership
being a prerequisite applicable to Freemasonry membership in general.

I'm sorry I started this ;) I was alluding to the Masonic Hive (3.1B members),
"Here once again, reader, we manage to both believe and not believe. We
say we are not so gullible as to accept the propaganda that the Masons
are as ancient as the cults of Mithras and Orpheus. We say that we do
not believe they conspired from the shadows, guiding human progress for
millennia before the Church War's chaos...But something inside us
can't believe it's all invention. It feels so ancient..."

FWIW Haywood dates Freemasonry back to antiquity (after an enlighted
introductory quote):

"Unto the divine light of the holy altar, from the outer darkness
of ignorance, through the shadow of our earth life, winds the
beautiful path of initiation."

SYMBOLICAL MASONRY
AN INTRODUCTION TO THE HISTORY OF SYMBOLICAL FREEMASONRY

The question is often asked, How old is Masonry and where did it
begin? The answer must depend entirely on one's definition of the
word. If by that term one means a Freemason in the modern sense,
who is a member of a subordinate lodge operating under the
authority of a Grand Lodge and practising the rites of Symbolical
Masonry, then Freemasonry came into existence in London in 1717.
But this present day Craft is in historical continuity with lodges
or guilds of Masons who in earlier days engaged in the tasks of
actual building: if the word Freemason is to be extended to those
brethren then we may say that Freemasonry came into existence in
the twelfth century along with Gothic architecture and that its
cradle was very probably the northwestern corner of France. But if
the word Freemason is to be applied to any secret society that makes
use, or has made use, of some of our symbols or signs, then
Freemasonry goes a long way back into history, because there were
organisations among the Græco-Roman peoples, two or three thousand
years ago, that had much in common with ours: and it is certain that
the ancient Egyptians made use of several of the symbols or emblems
that we are accustomed to because we find them in "The Book of the Dead,"
and in other Egyptian memorials. If Freemasonry is given the widest
possible sense of being merely a secret fraternity then it has existed
in many parts of the world for thousands and thousands of years,
because primitive tribes have made use of such organisations through an
untold period of time."

<https://sacred-texts.com/mas/syma/syma04.htm>

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.

[Titus G]

Post by David Duffy

Post by Titus G

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Titus G

Post by David Duffy

Post by John Savard
I didn't have to know anything about Freemasonry to suspect the
original post was nonsense.
However, what little I do know allowed me to spot the references to
Freemasonry in Robert A. Heinlein's story "If This Goes On...".
So Freemasonry has been referenced in SF.

I am suspicious that there might be references to Freemasonry in
Ada Palmer's _Terra Ignota_ series.

I know little about Freemasonry but Terra Ignota did feature a secret
society amongst the aristocracy that placed loyalty above principle.
However women were rated more highly than kitchen appliances.
And obedience wasn't enforced with ritual.

Your first statemeny 'I know little about freemasonry' is correct, and
the rest the paragraph gives examples proving that.
Freemasonry has members from all classes - the dues are pretty low. Yes,
we have aristocrats. We also have truck drivers.

You have misunderstood. I will elaborate. There are overt references to
Freemasonry in Terra Ignota though I assumed that the secret society
aspect alluded to by David Duffy is referring specifically to the covert
aristocratic group in Terra Ignota rather than aristocracy membership
being a prerequisite applicable to Freemasonry membership in general.

I'm sorry I started this ;) I was alluding to the Masonic Hive (3.1B members),
"Here once again, reader, we manage to both believe and not believe. We
say we are not so gullible as to accept the propaganda that the Masons
are as ancient as the cults of Mithras and Orpheus. We say that we do
not believe they conspired from the shadows, guiding human progress for
millennia before the Church War???s chaos...But something inside us
can???t believe it???s all invention. It feels so ancient..."

As previously stated I know little about Freemasonry and related your
comment regarding Terra Ignota to the secret society of political
heavies but think that the overt references to Masonry in Terra Ignota
were clearly a far in the future version because the hive was a
political and a religious organisation which Freemasonry nowadays claims
not to be. Wasn't MASON in Terra Ignota an actual God?

[Michael F. Stemper]

Post by Titus G

Post by Cryptoengineer
Loyalty is encouraged, but not the extent doing wrong by non-members.

The Freemason stereotype, (where there is smoke, there is fire), values
loyalty above principle. The literary cliche is a Masonic judge excusing
a Masonic accused but influence in commerce would be more prevalent.

I seem to recall Cordelia Vorkosygin saying something along the lines of
putting personal loyalty ahead of principle, as well.