Discussion:
(Chengdu) The 2023 Hugo Awards: A Report on Censorship and Exclusion
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James Nicoll
2024-02-15 02:52:06 UTC
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The 2023 Hugo Awards: A Report on Censorship and Exclusion

https://www.patreon.com/posts/98498779
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Quadibloc
2024-02-15 06:03:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
The 2023 Hugo Awards: A Report on Censorship and Exclusion
https://www.patreon.com/posts/98498779
While I do certainly believe that courage, rather than cowardice,
is indeed part of the answer to the threat posed by tyranny, I
do not advocate noble but foolhardy gestures that could lead
to people needlessly becoming political prisoners.

The answer is not to hold WorldCon in this type of country.

John Savard
Ahasuerus
2024-02-15 15:38:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
The 2023 Hugo Awards: A Report on Censorship and Exclusion
https://www.patreon.com/posts/98498779
Very informative. I note a few things of particular interest:

McCarty responded on June 5 [2023] at 7:18 pm saying "At the moment, the
best guidance I have is ‘mentions of Hong Kong, Taiwan, Tibet, negatives
of China’. I will try to get better guidance when I have a chance to dig
into this deeper with the Chinese folks on the committee."

And:

In both Diane Lacey’s apology letter and an interview, she said some of
these Chinese works were removed due to "collusion in a Chinese
publication that had published a nominations list, a slate as it were,
and so those ballots were identified and eliminated."
Robert Carnegie
2024-02-15 17:49:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
The 2023 Hugo Awards: A Report on Censorship and Exclusion
https://www.patreon.com/posts/98498779
also, there's some BBC coverage here.
Nearer to the end of a 45 minute radio show.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001w8cd>

And incidentally, celebrity book club
"A Good Read" picked up _The Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy_, today.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001w73r>
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-02-15 17:57:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by James Nicoll
The 2023 Hugo Awards: A Report on Censorship and Exclusion
https://www.patreon.com/posts/98498779
also, there's some BBC coverage here.
Nearer to the end of a 45 minute radio show.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001w8cd>
And incidentally, celebrity book club
"A Good Read" picked up _The Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy_, today.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001w73r>
So, can 2023 be opened for "Retrospective Hugo Awards"?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
James Nicoll
2024-02-15 18:02:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by James Nicoll
The 2023 Hugo Awards: A Report on Censorship and Exclusion
https://www.patreon.com/posts/98498779
also, there's some BBC coverage here.
Nearer to the end of a 45 minute radio show.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001w8cd>
And incidentally, celebrity book club
"A Good Read" picked up _The Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy_, today.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001w73r>
So, can 2023 be opened for "Retrospective Hugo Awards"?
That is an amusing suggestion. Unfortunately, we will have to wait
until 2073 before it can be implemented.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Dimensional Traveler
2024-02-16 00:41:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by James Nicoll
The 2023 Hugo Awards: A Report on Censorship and Exclusion
https://www.patreon.com/posts/98498779
also, there's some BBC coverage here.
Nearer to the end of a 45 minute radio show.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001w8cd>
And incidentally, celebrity book club
"A Good Read" picked up _The Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy_, today.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001w73r>
So, can 2023 be opened for "Retrospective Hugo Awards"?
Doubt it.
Just do whatever is necessary to never, ever, let a Worldcon be awarded to
the likes of the People’s Republic again.
The REAL cause of WWIII! :P
--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.
Chris Buckley
2024-02-16 03:39:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by James Nicoll
The 2023 Hugo Awards: A Report on Censorship and Exclusion
https://www.patreon.com/posts/98498779
also, there's some BBC coverage here.
Nearer to the end of a 45 minute radio show.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001w8cd>
And incidentally, celebrity book club
"A Good Read" picked up _The Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy_, today.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001w73r>
So, can 2023 be opened for "Retrospective Hugo Awards"?
Doubt it.
Just do whatever is necessary to never, ever, let a Worldcon be awarded to
the likes of the People’s Republic again.
Pretty much everybody agrees with this, but exactly what is to be done is
much more problematic.

1. It's going to take time. Changes need to be approved by two consecutive
WorldCon business meetings. So we're talking about 3 years from now.

2. There's going to be a large debate just considering site selection.
Eg, there's a quite large contingent that wants to eliminate Uganda because
of its strong anti-gay laws (Uganda has been organizing a bid for the
first African WorldCon). There's another contingent lobbying against
several Eastern European countries like Hungary for both anti-gay and
repression reasons. There's another contingent that wants to make sure
Texas and Florida can never get a WorldCon.

3. Then there's the entire debate about whether and how much to
separate the WorldCon and Hugo Awards. Deep philosophical divisions
here.

If they try to do something minimal in Glasgow (this year's WorldCon)
like just adopting the voluntary actions that Glasgow has already
announced, then that should get adopted for the third year. But with
all the more ambitious proposals, we have the potential to cause
schisms which are a very dangerous in a 99% amateur volunteer
community!

Chris
WolfFan
2024-02-16 14:40:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by James Nicoll
The 2023 Hugo Awards: A Report on Censorship and Exclusion
https://www.patreon.com/posts/98498779
also, there's some BBC coverage here.
Nearer to the end of a 45 minute radio show.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001w8cd>
And incidentally, celebrity book club
"A Good Read" picked up _The Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy_, today.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001w73r>
So, can 2023 be opened for "Retrospective Hugo Awards"?
Doubt it.
Just do whatever is necessary to never, ever, let a Worldcon be awarded to
the likes of the People’s Republic again.
Pretty much everybody agrees with this, but exactly what is to be done is
much more problematic.
1. It's going to take time. Changes need to be approved by two consecutive
WorldCon business meetings. So we're talking about 3 years from now.
2. There's going to be a large debate just considering site selection.
Eg, there's a quite large contingent that wants to eliminate Uganda because
of its strong anti-gay laws (Uganda has been organizing a bid for the
first African WorldCon). There's another contingent lobbying against
several Eastern European countries like Hungary for both anti-gay and
repression reasons. There's another contingent that wants to make sure
Texas and Florida can never get a WorldCon.
Good luck with any of that. Pretty much all of English-speaking Africa (and
the Caribbean) has ’strong’ anti-gay laws, thanks to HM Gov in London.
French-speaking Africa (and the Caribbean) has similar laws, thanks to French
colonialism... except for the bits which are now ‘Overseas Departments’
of France, which have current French law. If Britain had gone the ‘overseas
department’ route, the way France and the Netherlands did, the law would be
different. As it is, for quite some time the final court of appeals in much
of the ex-Empire were the Law Lords of HM’s Privy Council. The Privy
Council has been kicked out of most of the ex-Empire for several reasons,
including a desire to apply current British law, making it difficult when
ex-colonies wanted to hang miscreants. The screaming from Jamaica when the
Law Lords declard chunks of the Gun Court Act to be unconstitutional could be
heard in London, without need for radio or telephone, and the Caribbean Court
of Appeal was set up as a direct response. If Jamaica, Barbados, Trinidad,
etc. had been overseas departments of Britain, complete with the ability to
vote in UK general elections and to send reps to Parliament in Britain,
things might have been different. If Kenya, Uganda, Nigeria, etc. had been
overseas departments, things would have been very different.

As for Texas and Florida... I don’t know about Abbot in Texas, but Ron
DeSatan’s days are numbered. He has Offended The Mouse. The Mouse does not
forgive. The Mouse does not forget. Hell waits for thee.
Post by Chris Buckley
3. Then there's the entire debate about whether and how much to
separate the WorldCon and Hugo Awards. Deep philosophical divisions
here.
should have been done decades ago.
Post by Chris Buckley
If they try to do something minimal in Glasgow (this year's WorldCon)
like just adopting the voluntary actions that Glasgow has already
announced, then that should get adopted for the third year. But with
all the more ambitious proposals, we have the potential to cause
schisms which are a very dangerous in a 99% amateur volunteer
community!
storm in a teacup. Most fans don’t care. if they cared, something would
have been done about the Hugos a long time ago.
Post by Chris Buckley
Chris
Dimensional Traveler
2024-02-16 16:41:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by WolfFan
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by James Nicoll
The 2023 Hugo Awards: A Report on Censorship and Exclusion
https://www.patreon.com/posts/98498779
also, there's some BBC coverage here.
Nearer to the end of a 45 minute radio show.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001w8cd>
And incidentally, celebrity book club
"A Good Read" picked up _The Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy_, today.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001w73r>
So, can 2023 be opened for "Retrospective Hugo Awards"?
Doubt it.
Just do whatever is necessary to never, ever, let a Worldcon be awarded to
the likes of the People’s Republic again.
Pretty much everybody agrees with this, but exactly what is to be done is
much more problematic.
1. It's going to take time. Changes need to be approved by two consecutive
WorldCon business meetings. So we're talking about 3 years from now.
2. There's going to be a large debate just considering site selection.
Eg, there's a quite large contingent that wants to eliminate Uganda because
of its strong anti-gay laws (Uganda has been organizing a bid for the
first African WorldCon). There's another contingent lobbying against
several Eastern European countries like Hungary for both anti-gay and
repression reasons. There's another contingent that wants to make sure
Texas and Florida can never get a WorldCon.
Good luck with any of that. Pretty much all of English-speaking Africa (and
the Caribbean) has ’strong’ anti-gay laws, thanks to HM Gov in London.
French-speaking Africa (and the Caribbean) has similar laws, thanks to French
colonialism... except for the bits which are now ‘Overseas Departments’
of France, which have current French law. If Britain had gone the ‘overseas
department’ route, the way France and the Netherlands did, the law would be
different. As it is, for quite some time the final court of appeals in much
of the ex-Empire were the Law Lords of HM’s Privy Council. The Privy
Council has been kicked out of most of the ex-Empire for several reasons,
including a desire to apply current British law, making it difficult when
ex-colonies wanted to hang miscreants. The screaming from Jamaica when the
Law Lords declard chunks of the Gun Court Act to be unconstitutional could be
heard in London, without need for radio or telephone, and the Caribbean Court
of Appeal was set up as a direct response. If Jamaica, Barbados, Trinidad,
etc. had been overseas departments of Britain, complete with the ability to
vote in UK general elections and to send reps to Parliament in Britain,
things might have been different. If Kenya, Uganda, Nigeria, etc. had been
overseas departments, things would have been very different.
As for Texas and Florida... I don’t know about Abbot in Texas, but Ron
DeSatan’s days are numbered. He has Offended The Mouse. The Mouse does not
forgive. The Mouse does not forget. Hell waits for thee.
Worse than offending The Mouse, he challenged The Almighty Orange One.
He likely has some Red Hats hunting him now.
--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.
Paul S Person
2024-02-16 17:07:13 UTC
Permalink
<snippo>
Post by WolfFan
Post by Chris Buckley
1. It's going to take time. Changes need to be approved by two consecutive
WorldCon business meetings. So we're talking about 3 years from now.
2. There's going to be a large debate just considering site selection.
Eg, there's a quite large contingent that wants to eliminate Uganda because
of its strong anti-gay laws (Uganda has been organizing a bid for the
first African WorldCon). There's another contingent lobbying against
several Eastern European countries like Hungary for both anti-gay and
repression reasons. There's another contingent that wants to make sure
Texas and Florida can never get a WorldCon.
Good luck with any of that. Pretty much all of English-speaking Africa (and
the Caribbean) has ’strong’ anti-gay laws, thanks to HM Gov in London.
French-speaking Africa (and the Caribbean) has similar laws, thanks to French
colonialism... except for the bits which are now ‘Overseas Departments’
of France, which have current French law. If Britain had gone the ‘overseas
department’ route, the way France and the Netherlands did, the law would be
different. As it is, for quite some time the final court of appeals in much
of the ex-Empire were the Law Lords of HM’s Privy Council. The Privy
Council has been kicked out of most of the ex-Empire for several reasons,
including a desire to apply current British law, making it difficult when
ex-colonies wanted to hang miscreants. The screaming from Jamaica when the
Law Lords declard chunks of the Gun Court Act to be unconstitutional could be
heard in London, without need for radio or telephone, and the Caribbean Court
of Appeal was set up as a direct response. If Jamaica, Barbados, Trinidad,
etc. had been overseas departments of Britain, complete with the ability to
vote in UK general elections and to send reps to Parliament in Britain,
things might have been different. If Kenya, Uganda, Nigeria, etc. had been
overseas departments, things would have been very different.
Articles I have read have suggested that the anti-gay laws are partly
based on religion and partly on local tradition. The people claiming
this were trying to debunk the claim that Evangelical speakers who
recommended such measures were reponsible, but I don't think they
would be any happier with being told that they were doing what the
colonialists had wanted when they were in charge.
Post by WolfFan
As for Texas and Florida... I don’t know about Abbot in Texas, but Ron
DeSatan’s days are numbered. He has Offended The Mouse. The Mouse does not
forgive. The Mouse does not forget. Hell waits for thee.
Adams is one shot at Fort Sumter (metaphorically speaking) from
finding out that Texas does /not/ have full control of its own
destiny, never mind anyone else's.

DeSantis' Mussolini act is, indeed, wearing thin. He is apparently on
the Primary ballot for Washington; I guess he withdrew too late to
change the lineup here.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"
Dimensional Traveler
2024-02-16 19:28:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
<snippo>
Post by WolfFan
Post by Chris Buckley
1. It's going to take time. Changes need to be approved by two consecutive
WorldCon business meetings. So we're talking about 3 years from now.
2. There's going to be a large debate just considering site selection.
Eg, there's a quite large contingent that wants to eliminate Uganda because
of its strong anti-gay laws (Uganda has been organizing a bid for the
first African WorldCon). There's another contingent lobbying against
several Eastern European countries like Hungary for both anti-gay and
repression reasons. There's another contingent that wants to make sure
Texas and Florida can never get a WorldCon.
Good luck with any of that. Pretty much all of English-speaking Africa (and
the Caribbean) has ’strong’ anti-gay laws, thanks to HM Gov in London.
French-speaking Africa (and the Caribbean) has similar laws, thanks to French
colonialism... except for the bits which are now ‘Overseas Departments’
of France, which have current French law. If Britain had gone the ‘overseas
department’ route, the way France and the Netherlands did, the law would be
different. As it is, for quite some time the final court of appeals in much
of the ex-Empire were the Law Lords of HM’s Privy Council. The Privy
Council has been kicked out of most of the ex-Empire for several reasons,
including a desire to apply current British law, making it difficult when
ex-colonies wanted to hang miscreants. The screaming from Jamaica when the
Law Lords declard chunks of the Gun Court Act to be unconstitutional could be
heard in London, without need for radio or telephone, and the Caribbean Court
of Appeal was set up as a direct response. If Jamaica, Barbados, Trinidad,
etc. had been overseas departments of Britain, complete with the ability to
vote in UK general elections and to send reps to Parliament in Britain,
things might have been different. If Kenya, Uganda, Nigeria, etc. had been
overseas departments, things would have been very different.
Articles I have read have suggested that the anti-gay laws are partly
based on religion and partly on local tradition. The people claiming
this were trying to debunk the claim that Evangelical speakers who
recommended such measures were reponsible, but I don't think they
would be any happier with being told that they were doing what the
colonialists had wanted when they were in charge.
Post by WolfFan
As for Texas and Florida... I don’t know about Abbot in Texas, but Ron
DeSatan’s days are numbered. He has Offended The Mouse. The Mouse does not
forgive. The Mouse does not forget. Hell waits for thee.
Adams is one shot at Fort Sumter (metaphorically speaking) from
finding out that Texas does /not/ have full control of its own
destiny, never mind anyone else's.
Did you mean Abbott, as in the governor of Texas?
Post by Paul S Person
DeSantis' Mussolini act is, indeed, wearing thin. He is apparently on
the Primary ballot for Washington; I guess he withdrew too late to
change the lineup here.
--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.
Paul S Person
2024-02-17 17:03:00 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 11:28:17 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Paul S Person
<snippo>
Post by WolfFan
Post by Chris Buckley
1. It's going to take time. Changes need to be approved by two consecutive
WorldCon business meetings. So we're talking about 3 years from now.
2. There's going to be a large debate just considering site selection.
Eg, there's a quite large contingent that wants to eliminate Uganda because
of its strong anti-gay laws (Uganda has been organizing a bid for the
first African WorldCon). There's another contingent lobbying against
several Eastern European countries like Hungary for both anti-gay and
repression reasons. There's another contingent that wants to make sure
Texas and Florida can never get a WorldCon.
Good luck with any of that. Pretty much all of English-speaking Africa (and
the Caribbean) has ’strong’ anti-gay laws, thanks to HM Gov in London.
French-speaking Africa (and the Caribbean) has similar laws, thanks to French
colonialism... except for the bits which are now ‘Overseas Departments’
of France, which have current French law. If Britain had gone the ‘overseas
department’ route, the way France and the Netherlands did, the law would be
different. As it is, for quite some time the final court of appeals in much
of the ex-Empire were the Law Lords of HM’s Privy Council. The Privy
Council has been kicked out of most of the ex-Empire for several reasons,
including a desire to apply current British law, making it difficult when
ex-colonies wanted to hang miscreants. The screaming from Jamaica when the
Law Lords declard chunks of the Gun Court Act to be unconstitutional could be
heard in London, without need for radio or telephone, and the Caribbean Court
of Appeal was set up as a direct response. If Jamaica, Barbados, Trinidad,
etc. had been overseas departments of Britain, complete with the ability to
vote in UK general elections and to send reps to Parliament in Britain,
things might have been different. If Kenya, Uganda, Nigeria, etc. had been
overseas departments, things would have been very different.
Articles I have read have suggested that the anti-gay laws are partly
based on religion and partly on local tradition. The people claiming
this were trying to debunk the claim that Evangelical speakers who
recommended such measures were reponsible, but I don't think they
would be any happier with being told that they were doing what the
colonialists had wanted when they were in charge.
Post by WolfFan
As for Texas and Florida... I don’t know about Abbot in Texas, but Ron
DeSatan’s days are numbered. He has Offended The Mouse. The Mouse does not
forgive. The Mouse does not forget. Hell waits for thee.
Adams is one shot at Fort Sumter (metaphorically speaking) from
finding out that Texas does /not/ have full control of its own
destiny, never mind anyone else's.
Did you mean Abbott, as in the governor of Texas?
I did. Sorry for the confusion.
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Paul S Person
DeSantis' Mussolini act is, indeed, wearing thin. He is apparently on
the Primary ballot for Washington; I guess he withdrew too late to
change the lineup here.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"
Paul S Person
2024-02-16 16:59:39 UTC
Permalink
On 16 Feb 2024 03:39:19 GMT, Chris Buckley <***@sabir.com> wrote:

<snippo>
Post by Chris Buckley
1. It's going to take time. Changes need to be approved by two consecutive
WorldCon business meetings. So we're talking about 3 years from now.
2. There's going to be a large debate just considering site selection.
Eg, there's a quite large contingent that wants to eliminate Uganda because
of its strong anti-gay laws (Uganda has been organizing a bid for the
first African WorldCon). There's another contingent lobbying against
several Eastern European countries like Hungary for both anti-gay and
repression reasons. There's another contingent that wants to make sure
Texas and Florida can never get a WorldCon.
That's the problem with a /World/Con -- excluding countries makes it
less than what it claims to be.

OTOH, awarding it to countries that behave badly produces bad optics.

And "behave badly" can have different definitions to different people.

Also, "never" is a very long time. As Babu might say.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"
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