Discussion:
Gaming Prophecy?
(too old to reply)
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-08-27 22:11:07 UTC
Permalink
We touched briefly on Cugel today, and this sequence was on my mind:


Cugel finally tired of the conversation and rose to his
feet, at which the shell-creatures once more gave him their
attention. "Must you fare forth so soon? Just when we were
about to inquire the reason for your presence; passers-by
are few along Great Sandy Beach, and you seem a man who has
journeyed far."

"This is correct," said Cugel, "and I must journey yet
farther. Notice the sun: it starts down the western curve,
and tonight I wish to house myself at Cil."

One of the shell-creatures lifted up its arms and displayed
a fine garment it had woven from water-threads. "This garment
we offer as a gift. You seem a sensitive man and so may
require protection from wind and cold." It tossed the garment
to Cugel. He examined it, marveling at the suppleness of
the cloth and its lucent shimmer. "I thank you indeed,"
said Cugel. "This is generosity beyond my expectation." He
wrapped himself in the garment, but at once it reverted to
water and Cugel was drenched. The four in the shells shouted
loud in mischievous glee, and as Cugel stepped wrathfully
forward, snapped their shells shut.

Cugel kicked the shell of the creature which had tossed him
the garment, bruising his foot and exacerbating his rage.
He seized a heavy rock, dashed it down upon the shell,
crushing it. Snatching forth the squealing creature, Cugel
hurled it far up the beach, where it lay staring at him,
head and small arms joined to pale entrails. In a faint
voice it asked, "Why did you treat me so? For a prank you
have taken my life from me, and I have no other."

"And thereby you will be prevented from further pranks,"
declared Cugel. "Notice, you have drenched me to the skin!"

"It was merely an act of mischief; a small matter surely."
The shell-creature spoke in a fading voice. "We of the rocks
know little magic, yet I am given the power to curse, and
this I now pronounce: may you lose your heart's-desire,
whatever its nature; you shall be bereft before a single
day is gone."

"Another curse?" Cugel shook his head in displeasure. "Two
curses already I have voided this day; am I now inflicted
with another?"

"This curse you shall not void," whispered the shell-creature.
"I make it the final act of my life."

"Malice is a quality to be deplored," said Cugel fretfully.
"I doubt the efficacy of your curse; nevertheless, you would
be well-advised to clear the air of its odium and so regain
my good opinion."

But the shell-creature said no more. Presently it collapsed
into a cloudy slime which was absorbed into the sand.

Cugel set off down the beach, considering how best to avert
the consequences of the shell-creature's curse. "One must
use his wits in dealing with maledictions," Cugel said for
the second time. "Am I known as Cugel the Clever for nothing?"
No stratagem came to mind, and he proceeded along the beach
pondering the matter in all its aspects.

The headland to the east grew distinct. Cugel saw it to be
cloaked in tall dark trees, through which appeared glimpses
of white buildings. Slaye showed himself once more, running
back and forth across the beach like one departed of his
senses. He approached Cugel and fell on his knees. "The
amulet, I beg of you! It belongs to the House of Slaye; it
conferred upon us the rule of Cil! Give it to me and I will
fulfill your heart's-desire!"

Cugel stopped short. Here was a pretty paradox! If he
surrendered the amulet, Slaye evidently would betray him,
or at the very least fail to make good his promise --
assuming the potency of the curse. On the other hand, if
Cugel retained the amulet, he would lose his heart's-desire
to no less a degree -- assuming the potency of the curse
-- but the amulet would yet be his.

Slaye misinterpreted the hesitation as a sign of pliancy.
"I will make you grandee of the realm!" he cried in a fervent
voice. "You shall have a barge of carved ivory, two hundred
maidens shall serve your wants; your enemies shall be clamped
into a rotating cauldron -- only give me the amulet!"

"The amulet confers so much power?" inquired Cugel. "It is
possible to achieve all this?"

"Indeed, indeed!" cried Slaye, "when one can read the runes!"

"Well then," said Cugel, "what is their import?"

Slaye gazed at him in woeful injury. "That I can not say;
I must have the amulet!"

Cugel flourished his hand in a contemptuous gesture. "You
refuse to gratify my curiosity; in my turn I denounce your
arrogant ambitions!"

Slaye turned to look toward the headland, where white walls
gleamed among the trees. "I understand all. You intend to
rule Cil in your own right!"

There were less desirable prospects, thought Cugel, and
Firx, appreciating something of this, performed a small
monitory constriction. Regretfully Cugel put aside the
scheme; nevertheless, it suggested a means to nullify the
shell-creature's curse. "If I am to be deprived of my
heart's-desire," Cugel told himself, "I would be wise to
fix upon a new goal, a fervent new enthusiasm, for at least
the space of a day. I shall therefore aspire to the rule
of Cil, which now becomes my heart's-desire." So as not to
arouse the vigilance of Firx, he said aloud, "I intend to
use this amulet to achieve highly important ends. Among
them may well be the lordship of Cil, to which I believe I
am entitled by virtue of my amulet."

Slaye gave a wild sardonic laugh. "First you must convince
Derwe Coreme of your authority. She is of the House of
Domber, gloomy and fitful; she looks little more than a
girl, but she manifests the brooding carelessness of a
forest grue. Beware of Derwe Coreme; she will order you and
my amulet plunged into the ocean's deep!"

"If you fear to this extent," said Cugel with asperity,
"instruct me in the use of the amulet, and I will prevent
that calamity."

But Slaye mulishly shook his head. "The deficiencies of
Derwe Coreme are known; why exchange them for the outlandish
excesses of a vagabond?"

For his outspokenness Slaye received a buffet which sent
him staggering. Cugel then proceeded along the shore. The
sun wallowed low upon the sea; he hastened his steps, anxious
to find shelter before dark.

He came at last to the end of the beach. The headland loomed
above, with the tall dark trees standing still higher. A
balustrade surrounding the gardens showed intermittently
through the foliage; somewhat below, a colonnaded rotunda
overlooked the ocean to the south. Grandeur indeed! thought
Cugel, and he examined the amulet with a new attentiveness.
His temporary heart's-desire, sovereignty over Cil, had
become no longer factitious. And Cugel wondered if he should
not fix upon a new heart's-desire -- an aspiration to master
the lore of animal husbandry, for instance, or a compelling
urge to excel at acrobatic feats ... Reluctantly Cugel
dismissed the scheme. In any event, the cogency of the
shell-creature's curse was not yet certain.


I know that Offut & Lyon's "War Of The Wizards" trilogy has a good
example (not to mention they are really fun books!) and I understand
there was a run on "Thor" where Odin tried a strategy of making all
the Ragnarok prophecies come literally true in a survivable way.

What are some other good examples of characters trying (succesfully or no)
to game prophecy?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Don
2024-08-28 14:04:59 UTC
Permalink
<snip excerpt of excellent literary science fiction>
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I know that Offut & Lyon's "War Of The Wizards" trilogy has a good
example (not to mention they are really fun books!) and I understand
there was a run on "Thor" where Odin tried a strategy of making all
the Ragnarok prophecies come literally true in a survivable way.
What are some other good examples of characters trying (succesfully or no)
to game prophecy?
This is a tough task Ted (for me at least). A hunch tells me somewhere
in the vast PR epic someone glimpses the future and tries to change it.
Pucky's provocative potential probably makes him the most entertaining
potential gamester.

Until more neurons fire, _Minority Report_ and "Happy Ending" are the
only stories to suggest themselves. But, even these two, under closer
inspection, may not qualify.

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.
Tony Nance
2024-08-30 19:54:59 UTC
Permalink
<snip transcription of Cugel doing Cugel things> >
I know that Offut & Lyon's "War Of The Wizards" trilogy has a good
example (not to mention they are really fun books!) and I understand
there was a run on "Thor" where Odin tried a strategy of making all
the Ragnarok prophecies come literally true in a survivable way.
What are some other good examples of characters trying (succesfully or no)
to game prophecy?
When I read this post three nights ago:
a) I knew I would be very busy for a few days[1]
and
b) I knew there were plenty of examples that would come to mind

While a) was sadly correct, b) was sadly incorrect.

However, after staring at my bookshelves and also getting some help from
the internet, I have come up with a few (two successful, two not):

[SPOILER ALERT - titles are ROT13'd and concatenated]

Two successful ones:
1a) In evbeqna'fcreplwnpxfbafntn, the protagonist is told "And you shall
fail to save what matters most, in the end." It turns out that he does
indeed fail to save his own mother, but that's because he gives her the
ability to save herself.

1b) In another part of the same series, a character receives a prophecy
from an oracle telling her she will "fail without friends, and fly home
alone”. Sure enough, she fails because it is the protagonist who
captures the MacGuffin. However, the protagonist immediately gives her
the MacGuffin, and then buys her a plane ticket so she can fly back to
their camp alone (because if protagonist and sidekick fly back with her,
they’ll lose their earthly protection and probably be killed).

Two unsuccessful ones:
2a) In guruneelcbggrefrevrf, the Big Bad Guy tries to kill his
prophesied nemesis, not realizing that the nemesis didn't actually
didn't become his nemesis until the moment Big Bad tried to kill him.

2b) In qvnanjlaarjbarf’ pnfgyrvagurnve sybjrevaguravtug'f father locked
her up since her birth, after hearing a prophecy that the first man she
sees will become her husband. If he hadn't done that, she would have
never met the main protagonist ...

- Tony

[1] "stupid busy" in our local lingo[2]
[2] where "local" means "in my house"
Michael F. Stemper
2024-08-30 20:19:19 UTC
Permalink
2a) In guruneelcbggrefrevrf, the Big Bad Guy tries to kill his prophesied nemesis, not realizing that the nemesis didn't actually didn't become his nemesis until the moment Big Bad tried to kill him.
Yeah, that was a choice of two situation, wasn't it? Good catch.

Does "No living man may hinder me" count for this? Mebbe not.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Isaiah 58:6-7
Tony Nance
2024-08-30 20:24:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Tony Nance
2a) In guruneelcbggrefrevrf, the Big Bad Guy tries to kill his
prophesied nemesis, not realizing that the nemesis didn't actually
didn't become his nemesis until the moment Big Bad tried to kill him.
Yeah, that was a choice of two situation, wasn't it?
Yep. Not clear what would have happened if he kinda did nothing at all,
but maybe I'm forgetting something.
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Good catch.
Does "No living man may hinder me" count for this? Mebbe not.
That was indeed the first, second, and third example that came to mind,
but I don't know if they were trying to outfox the prophecy or just
merely stup...um...underinformed about it.

Tony
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-08-31 01:48:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Nance
<snip transcription of Cugel doing Cugel things> >
I know that Offut & Lyon's "War Of The Wizards" trilogy has a good
example (not to mention they are really fun books!) and I understand
there was a run on "Thor" where Odin tried a strategy of making all
the Ragnarok prophecies come literally true in a survivable way.
What are some other good examples of characters trying (succesfully or no)
to game prophecy?
a) I knew I would be very busy for a few days[1]
and
b) I knew there were plenty of examples that would come to mind
While a) was sadly correct, b) was sadly incorrect.
However, after staring at my bookshelves and also getting some help from
[SPOILER ALERT - titles are ROT13'd and concatenated]
1a) In evbeqna'fcreplwnpxfbafntn, the protagonist is told "And you shall
fail to save what matters most, in the end." It turns out that he does
indeed fail to save his own mother, but that's because he gives her the
ability to save herself.
Have not read these, though I saw most of the movie, which seemed
mediocre.
Post by Tony Nance
1b) In another part of the same series, a character receives a prophecy
from an oracle telling her she will "fail without friends, and fly home
alone”. Sure enough, she fails because it is the protagonist who
captures the MacGuffin. However, the protagonist immediately gives her
the MacGuffin, and then buys her a plane ticket so she can fly back to
their camp alone (because if protagonist and sidekick fly back with her,
they’ll lose their earthly protection and probably be killed).
(Spoilers)

This kind of reminds me of the Harry Dresden propechy that as I recall
is dual forked 1) You will die doing the right thing & 2) You will die
alone.

His (dead) dad later tells him that everybody dies alone: It's a
doorway sized for one (or words to that effect), and as for the
first I believe it turned out to be true, but it was somewhat akin
to being turned into a newt.
Post by Tony Nance
2a) In guruneelcbggrefrevrf, the Big Bad Guy tries to kill his
prophesied nemesis, not realizing that the nemesis didn't actually
didn't become his nemesis until the moment Big Bad tried to kill him.
Interestingly iirc that one, the prophecy could also have applied to
Arivyyr
Post by Tony Nance
2b) In qvnanjlaarjbarf’ pnfgyrvagurnve sybjrevaguravtug'f father locked
her up since her birth, after hearing a prophecy that the first man she
sees will become her husband. If he hadn't done that, she would have
never met the main protagonist ...
Haven't read that one either, but the description puts me in the mind of
Oedipus.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Michael F. Stemper
2024-08-31 12:50:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Tony Nance
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
What are some other good examples of characters trying (succesfully or no)
to game prophecy?
2a) In guruneelcbggrefrevrf, the Big Bad Guy tries to kill his
prophesied nemesis, not realizing that the nemesis didn't actually
didn't become his nemesis until the moment Big Bad tried to kill him.
Interestingly iirc that one, the prophecy could also have applied to
Arivyyr
Exactly. It'd be interesting to see how that fork would have turned out.
--
Michael F. Stemper
87.3% of all statistics are made up by the person giving them.
Paul S Person
2024-08-31 15:59:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Tony Nance
<snip transcription of Cugel doing Cugel things> >
I know that Offut & Lyon's "War Of The Wizards" trilogy has a good
example (not to mention they are really fun books!) and I understand
there was a run on "Thor" where Odin tried a strategy of making all
the Ragnarok prophecies come literally true in a survivable way.
What are some other good examples of characters trying (succesfully or no)
to game prophecy?
<snippo>
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Tony Nance
2a) In guruneelcbggrefrevrf, the Big Bad Guy tries to kill his
prophesied nemesis, not realizing that the nemesis didn't actually
didn't become his nemesis until the moment Big Bad tried to kill him.
Interestingly iirc that one, the prophecy could also have applied to
Arivyyr
I wondered through the next book or so if that would turn out to be
the case. It was not to be, although he did show considerable courage
in the final showdown.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"
Tony Nance
2024-09-03 01:38:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Tony Nance
<snip transcription of Cugel doing Cugel things> >
I know that Offut & Lyon's "War Of The Wizards" trilogy has a good
example (not to mention they are really fun books!) and I understand
there was a run on "Thor" where Odin tried a strategy of making all
the Ragnarok prophecies come literally true in a survivable way.
What are some other good examples of characters trying (succesfully or no)
to game prophecy?
a) I knew I would be very busy for a few days[1]
and
b) I knew there were plenty of examples that would come to mind
While a) was sadly correct, b) was sadly incorrect.
However, after staring at my bookshelves and also getting some help from
[SPOILER ALERT - titles are ROT13'd and concatenated]
1a) In evbeqna'fcreplwnpxfbafntn, the protagonist is told "And you shall
fail to save what matters most, in the end." It turns out that he does
indeed fail to save his own mother, but that's because he gives her the
ability to save herself.
Have not read these, though I saw most of the movie, which seemed
mediocre.
The books are pretty good, especially if you keep in mind they're
largely aimed at middle schoolers. My kids were the right ages, and this
was the very last series I got to read out loud to them, before that
notion became quaint and antiquated. One of my kids saw the first movie
said it was terrible and they would see no more, no matter how many they
made.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Tony Nance
1b) In another part of the same series, a character receives a prophecy
from an oracle telling her she will "fail without friends, and fly home
alone”. Sure enough, she fails because it is the protagonist who
captures the MacGuffin. However, the protagonist immediately gives her
the MacGuffin, and then buys her a plane ticket so she can fly back to
their camp alone (because if protagonist and sidekick fly back with her,
they’ll lose their earthly protection and probably be killed).
(Spoilers)
This kind of reminds me of the Harry Dresden propechy that as I recall
is dual forked 1) You will die doing the right thing & 2) You will die
alone.
His (dead) dad later tells him that everybody dies alone: It's a
doorway sized for one (or words to that effect), and as for the
first I believe it turned out to be true, but it was somewhat akin
to being turned into a newt.
I think you're right. I miss this universe.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Tony Nance
2a) In guruneelcbggrefrevrf, the Big Bad Guy tries to kill his
prophesied nemesis, not realizing that the nemesis didn't actually
didn't become his nemesis until the moment Big Bad tried to kill him.
Interestingly iirc that one, the prophecy could also have applied to
Arivyyr
Most definitely. As I mentioned to Mike, it's not clear to me what would
have happened if Big Bad didn't try to kill either of the two - but I
could surely be forgetting some things.

Tony
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Tony Nance
2b) In qvnanjlaarjbarf’ pnfgyrvagurnve sybjrevaguravtug'f father locked
her up since her birth, after hearing a prophecy that the first man she
sees will become her husband. If he hadn't done that, she would have
never met the main protagonist ...
Haven't read that one either, but the description puts me in the mind of
Oedipus.
Loading...