(ReacTor) Five SFF Books Featuring Frigid, Icy Worlds

Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Books Featuring Frigid, Icy Worlds
Celebrate the coldest summer of the rest of your life with some
frosty SF and fantasy novels!
https://reactormag.com/five-sff-books-featuring-frigid-icy-worlds/
"coldest summers of the 21st century"????

Am I missing a sarcasm mark?

pt

James Nicoll

2024-07-15 16:10:17 UTC

Post by Cryptoengineer

Am I missing a sarcasm mark?

We're doing fuck all to limit the increase in atmospheric CO2,
so while 2024 may seem warm in comparison to past years, it
may well appear comparatively frigid compared to 2099.

Lynn McGuire

2024-07-15 20:59:52 UTC

Zero for five here. Of course, there is "Fallen Angels" by Niven and
Pournelle and a cast of hundreds.

I am surprised that you did not mention "Icerigger (Humanx
Commonwealth)" by Alan Dean Foster.

https://www.amazon.com/Icerigger-Humanx-Commonwealth-Alan-Foster-ebook/dp/B0BMPVV1FD/

Lynn

William Hyde

2024-07-15 21:39:49 UTC

Zero for five here. Of course, there is "Fallen Angels" by Niven and
Pournelle and a cast of hundreds.
I am surprised that you did not mention "Icerigger (Humanx
Commonwealth)" by Alan Dean Foster.

Or Moorcock's earlier "The Ice Schooner", or Paul Cook's "Duende
Meadow", or "Time of the Great Freeze", by Silverberg, or John
Christopher's "The World in Winter", or Micheal Scott Rohan's "The
Winter of the World" (despite being fantasy, the most accurate portrayal
of an ice age), or ...

With five books in the list, many will be omitted.

William Hyde

Scott Lurndal

2024-07-16 13:25:18 UTC

Zero for five here.Â Of course, there is "Fallen Angels" by Niven and
Pournelle and a cast of hundreds.
I am surprised that you did not mention "Icerigger (Humanx
Commonwealth)" by Alan Dean Foster.

Would Barjavel's _The Ice People_ qualify?

William Hyde

2024-07-16 22:28:26 UTC

Zero for five here.Â Of course, there is "Fallen Angels" by Niven and
Pournelle and a cast of hundreds.
I am surprised that you did not mention "Icerigger (Humanx
Commonwealth)" by Alan Dean Foster.

Would Barjavel's _The Ice People_ qualify?

I've never read it. But the frozen people come from 900k in the past,
which was during the current ice age. So maybe.

I was wrong about "Duende Meadow". The story takes place after the ice
is gone.

William Hyde

William Hyde

2024-07-15 21:30:16 UTC

Not only have I read "Tiltangle", I read it three times. My copy, with
the same cover, is about ten feet from where I now sit.

Not because I liked it, but because of a shortage of things to read in
my suburban no-bookstore zone.

As I recall the last read was a choice between a third reading of
"Tiltangle" or a tenth of "Foundation". As I could already quote large
fragments of the latter, I went with the former. To my regret.

A lot of really, really, bad SF reached my local convenience store(1),
was bought and read at least twice by me (2), once the supplies of our
then tiny library were used up.

But then I found that you could order books from Ballantine and Ace, and
the SFBC, and that downtown they had these huge stores full of books,
and I never read "Tiltangle" again.

(1) a few years later it was all Harlequin romance and porn, so things
did not improve. But I did get some good books there before the takeover.

(2) Only once for "Terror from planet Ionus", also a favourite terrible
book of the late Gharlane.

William Hyde

Titus G

2024-07-16 05:36:47 UTC

On 16/07/24 09:30, William Hyde wrote:
snip

Post by William Hyde
As I recall the last read was a choice between a third reading of
"Tiltangle" or a tenth of "Foundation". As I could already quote large
fragments of the latter, I went with the former. To my regret.

I have just re-read Foundation, and Foundation and Empire which have
certainly stood the test of time for me despite such minor matters as no
smart phones nor internet and plenty of cigarette smoking. My first read
was last century but I had remembered the basic premise and in book 2
recognised Magnifico immediately. I am looking forward to beginning
Second Foundation.

Default User

2024-07-17 02:07:15 UTC

Post by William Hyde
Not only have I read "Tiltangle", I read it three times. My copy,
with the same cover, is about ten feet from where I now sit.
Not because I liked it, but because of a shortage of things to read
in my suburban no-bookstore zone.

That's one of the advantages of ebooks, of course. As long as you have
internet, the bookstores and libraries are generally available.

Brian

Robert Woodward

2024-07-16 04:54:48 UTC

Post by James Nicoll
Five SFF Books Featuring Frigid, Icy Worlds
Celebrate the coldest summer of the rest of your life with some
frosty SF and fantasy novels!

There is enough year to year variation that I can predict with
confidence that at least 1 of the next 5 summers in the Northern
Hemisphere will not be as hot as this one.

Post by James Nicoll
https://reactormag.com/five-sff-books-featuring-frigid-icy-worlds/

Have read _Iceworld_ and _The Sword and the Satchel_ (I see from the
ISFDB that this was Boyer's first novel)

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com

John Savard

2024-07-17 01:47:12 UTC

I could comment that your posting is itself a dystopian SF story,
about a world where giant oil companies have managed to control the
political system and hypnotize the populace so as to prevent any
effective response to global warming...

if it weren't for the fact that it seems like calling that scenario
"fiction" has already proven to be over-optimistic.

John Savard

Paul S Person

2024-07-17 15:42:04 UTC

On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:47:12 -0600, John Savard

I could comment that your posting is itself a dystopian SF story,
about a world where giant oil companies have managed to control the
political system and hypnotize the populace so as to prevent any
effective response to global warming...
if it weren't for the fact that it seems like calling that scenario
"fiction" has already proven to be over-optimistic.

One of the two theories I have seen on why the Texas electrical system
died again (if that actually happened; Bing seems to know nothing
about it, being fascinated by the event in 2021) is, indeed, that the
State of Texas, having funds that could have been used to fix the
problem, chose instead to shovel it into the pockets of the Oil
Industry. Typical Republican behavior.

The other is that Joe Biden /himself/ (as opposed to some lower-level
burocrat) refused to fork over the money needed to fix the problem so
it's all the Dem's fault.

As can be seen both are rather ... biased.

My comment: if a State as large and populous as Texas (how many seats
does it have in the House?) cannot afford to maintain its own basic
infrastructure but must rely on the Federal Teat, then maybe the
voters should consider electing people who /can/ manage to do whatever
it takes to maintain it.

And, although this may not be the coolest summer from here to 2200,
the maps I saw suggest that it was certainly a scorcher. In most of
the country, anyway.

--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

William Hyde

2024-07-17 20:05:55 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:47:12 -0600, John Savard

I could comment that your posting is itself a dystopian SF story,
about a world where giant oil companies have managed to control the
political system and hypnotize the populace so as to prevent any
effective response to global warming...
if it weren't for the fact that it seems like calling that scenario
"fiction" has already proven to be over-optimistic.

One of the two theories I have seen on why the Texas electrical system
died again (if that actually happened;

According to news stories I have seen, some parts of Texas are not
scheduled to regain power until July 19.

When I lived in College Station, TX, I experienced more power outages
per unit time than I have anywhere else (the situation here is
deteriorating, though) but it was never gone for more than a few hours.

William Hyde

James Nicoll

2024-07-17 20:17:34 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:47:12 -0600, John Savard

I could comment that your posting is itself a dystopian SF story,
about a world where giant oil companies have managed to control the
political system and hypnotize the populace so as to prevent any
effective response to global warming...
if it weren't for the fact that it seems like calling that scenario
"fiction" has already proven to be over-optimistic.

One of the two theories I have seen on why the Texas electrical system
died again (if that actually happened;

According to news stories I have seen, some parts of Texas are not
scheduled to regain power until July 19.
When I lived in College Station, TX, I experienced more power outages
per unit time than I have anywhere else (the situation here is
deteriorating, though) but it was never gone for more than a few hours.

I never particularly thought about it before but when I lived in the
back of beyond in Brazil, in a town whose roads were impassable red
clay during the rainy season, we never lost power. Not even during
the tropical storm that dumped thousands of dead penguins on the
beach.

In Ontario, otoh, short blackouts aren't unknown. But at least there
buck a beer beer.

Lynn McGuire

2024-07-17 20:18:48 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:47:12 -0600, John Savard

I could comment that your posting is itself a dystopian SF story,
about a world where giant oil companies have managed to control the
political system and hypnotize the populace so as to prevent any
effective response to global warming...
if it weren't for the fact that it seems like calling that scenario
"fiction" has already proven to be over-optimistic.

One of the two theories I have seen on why the Texas electrical system
died again (if that actually happened;

According to news stories I have seen, some parts of Texas are not
scheduled to regain power until July 19.
When I lived in College Station, TX, I experienced more power outages
per unit time than I have anywhere else (the situation here is
deteriorating, though) but it was never gone for more than a few hours.
William Hyde

Out of the 2.3 million electric meters that were down in the Houston
area (3 million meters total), only 40,000 remain disconnected as of
today. That is awesome compared to Hurricane Ike which had major areas
without power for up to six weeks.

https://www.chron.com/news/article/houston-power-outages-beryl-19579186.php

Those electric meters are polled every five minutes, they know which
meters are down.

My family and I were on our whole house generator from Monday at 5 am to
Wednesday at 4 pm. If constant electricity is important to you then you
need to get an automatic whole house generator. It is not unusual for
us to get a monthly power outage of more than a minute, the generator
starts and is making power within ten seconds.

Putting stuff underground does not work well on the Gulf Coast due to
the high water table. Plus, nobody around here is willing to pay the
10X cost of underground distribution lines and transmission lines.

Lynn

William Hyde

2024-07-17 21:57:49 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:47:12 -0600, John Savard

I could comment that your posting is itself a dystopian SF story,
about a world where giant oil companies have managed to control the
political system and hypnotize the populace so as to prevent any
effective response to global warming...
if it weren't for the fact that it seems like calling that scenario
"fiction" has already proven to be over-optimistic.

One of the two theories I have seen on why the Texas electrical system
died again (if that actually happened;

According to news stories I have seen, some parts of Texas are not
scheduled to regain power until July 19.
When I lived in College Station, TX, I experienced more power outages
per unit time than I have anywhere else (the situation here is
deteriorating, though) but it was never gone for more than a few hours.
William Hyde

That is awesome compared to Ike.

It is also, however, lousy for any state, and especially for a wealthy
state just crammed with talented engineers.

When I left Texas the Brazos county engineer was on the point of being
turfed out of his job for being not conservative enough. It seems a
strange criterion to use.

At the same time people here should have been turfed out for being
neither competent nor sober. A strange lack of criterion to use, but
heck, only seven people died.

Post by Lynn McGuire
https://www.chron.com/news/article/houston-power-outages-beryl-19579186.php

Ah the Chronicle. I used to devour that paper. Couldn't figure out at
first why they payed so much attention to the Lt gov.

Post by Lynn McGuire
Those electric meters are polled every five minutes, they know which
meters are down.
My family and I were on our whole house generator from Monday at 5 am to
Wednesday at 4 pm. If constant electricity is important to you then you
need to get an automatic whole house generator. It is not unusual for
us to get a monthly power outage of more than a minute, the generator
starts and is making power within ten seconds.

My local infrastructure is close to the worst in the province. I lose
power about three times a year, but the nearest main arteries (200 feet
away) never do.

Post by Lynn McGuire
Putting stuff underground does not work well on the Gulf Coast due to
the high water table. Plus, nobody around here is willing to pay the
10X cost of underground distribution lines and transmission lines.

It doesn't work well here either, I am told. And people here are no
more eager to pay extra now that electrical transmission is in private
hands.

William Hyde

Scott Lurndal

2024-07-17 22:07:32 UTC

Post by William Hyde
My local infrastructure is close to the worst in the province. I lose
power about three times a year, but the nearest main arteries (200 feet
away) never do.

In the 30 years that I lived in San Jose, there were three power
outages - two due to neighborhood distribution transformer failures, the
third was due to a Public Safety Power Shutdown (my part of
San Jose bordered a large county park that burned every four
or five years (small, easily controlled grassy hillside fires)).

Since I moved to a rural area, outages are much more frequent;
many due to idiots driving into power poles (one pole was taken
out twice within six months last year, another driver managed
to take out three poles by hitting the guy-wire support
pole on a 90 degree bend in the road); the others due to
overly sensitive powerline monitors intended to disconnect
when something drops on the line (like a tree). Lost power
twice last wednesday for three hours each time, 12 hours apart.

Getting quotes for battery backup for the existing solar panels.

James Nicoll

2024-07-17 22:25:37 UTC

Post by William Hyde
My local infrastructure is close to the worst in the province. I lose
power about three times a year, but the nearest main arteries (200 feet
away) never do.

In the 30 years that I lived in San Jose, there were three power
outages - two due to neighborhood distribution transformer failures, the
third was due to a Public Safety Power Shutdown (my part of
San Jose bordered a large county park that burned every four
or five years (small, easily controlled grassy hillside fires)).
Since I moved to a rural area, outages are much more frequent;
many due to idiots driving into power poles (one pole was taken
out twice within six months last year, another driver managed
to take out three poles by hitting the guy-wire support
pole on a 90 degree bend in the road); the others due to
overly sensitive powerline monitors intended to disconnect
when something drops on the line (like a tree). Lost power
twice last wednesday for three hours each time, 12 hours apart.
Getting quotes for battery backup for the existing solar panels.

We had a long-lasting outage on the farm. Lighting hit the pole
our transformer was on. I was nearby. Impressive light-and-sound
show.

John Savard

2024-07-18 12:50:58 UTC

On Wed, 17 Jul 2024 15:18:48 -0500, Lynn McGuire

Post by Lynn McGuire
That is awesome compared to Hurricane Ike which had major areas
without power for up to six weeks.

Hurricane Ike destroyed stuff that had to be replaced.

I presume this outage is due to too many people turning on their air
conditioning at once, so all they have to do is flip the breakers.

So being able to fix this way faster than the outages resulting from
Hurricane Ike is hardly surprising.

John Savard

Michael F. Stemper

2024-07-18 17:15:09 UTC

Post by John Savard
On Wed, 17 Jul 2024 15:18:48 -0500, Lynn McGuire

Post by Lynn McGuire
That is awesome compared to Hurricane Ike which had major areas
without power for up to six weeks.

Hurricane Ike destroyed stuff that had to be replaced.
I presume this outage is due to too many people turning on their air
conditioning at once, so all they have to do is flip the breakers.

You somehow missed hearing anything about Beryl?

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Beryl>

"[...] The second named storm, first hurricane, and first major hurricane
of the 2024 Atlantic hurricane season, Beryl broke many meteorological
records for the months of June and July, primarily for its unusual location,
intensity, and longevity."

--
Michael F. Stemper
No animals were harmed in the composition of this message.

Lynn McGuire

2024-07-18 19:50:36 UTC

Post by John Savard
On Wed, 17 Jul 2024 15:18:48 -0500, Lynn McGuire

Post by Lynn McGuire
That is awesome compared to Hurricane Ike which had major areas
without power for up to six weeks.

Hurricane Ike destroyed stuff that had to be replaced.
I presume this outage is due to too many people turning on their air
conditioning at once, so all they have to do is flip the breakers.

You somehow missed hearing anything about Beryl?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Beryl>
"[...] The second named storm, first hurricane, and first major hurricane
of the 2024 Atlantic hurricane season, Beryl broke many meteorological
records for the months of June and July, primarily for its unusual location,
intensity, and longevity."

We have been living the dream of Beryl down here in Houston for almost
two weeks now. Lived on the genny for four days. Walking outside, it
was a concert of genny's in all directions.

Lynn

Dimensional Traveler

2024-07-19 00:49:08 UTC

Post by John Savard
On Wed, 17 Jul 2024 15:18:48 -0500, Lynn McGuire

Post by Lynn McGuire
That is awesome compared to Hurricane Ike which had major areas
without power for up to six weeks.

Hurricane Ike destroyed stuff that had to be replaced.
I presume this outage is due to too many people turning on their air
conditioning at once, so all they have to do is flip the breakers.

You somehow missed hearing anything about Beryl?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Beryl>
"[...] The second named storm, first hurricane, and first major hurricane
of the 2024 Atlantic hurricane season, Beryl broke many meteorological
records for the months of June and July, primarily for its unusual location,
intensity, and longevity."

We have been living the dream of Beryl down here in Houston for almost
two weeks now. Lived on the genny for four days. Walking outside, it
was a concert of genny's in all directions.

Partly because Texas refuses to be connected to the rest of the North
American power grid....

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Lynn McGuire

2024-07-19 02:25:04 UTC

Post by John Savard
On Wed, 17 Jul 2024 15:18:48 -0500, Lynn McGuire

Post by Lynn McGuire
That is awesome compared to Hurricane Ike which had major areas
without power for up to six weeks.

Hurricane Ike destroyed stuff that had to be replaced.
I presume this outage is due to too many people turning on their air
conditioning at once, so all they have to do is flip the breakers.

You somehow missed hearing anything about Beryl?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Beryl>
"[...] The second named storm, first hurricane, and first major hurricane
of the 2024 Atlantic hurricane season, Beryl broke many meteorological
records for the months of June and July, primarily for its unusual location,
intensity, and longevity."

We have been living the dream of Beryl down here in Houston for almost
two weeks now. Lived on the genny for four days. Walking outside, it
was a concert of genny's in all directions.

Partly because Texas refuses to be connected to the rest of the North
American power grid....

Sigh. The Texas Grid alone is not much smaller than the east and west
power grids that have their own problems. Tying lots of things together
is not always a good solution.

BTW, the Texas grid is tied to the eastern, northern, and Mexican power
grids through several DC interconnections in Oklahoma and ???. The
amount of power that can be transferred either direction is around 1,000
MW the last time I looked.
https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards

We (ERCOT) were pulling 600 MW off the eastern grid today after the
solar power plants stopped making power between 6pm and 8pm. The solar
power shutdown is becoming quite a problem with 20,000 MW at noon with a
clear sky and then the total fade away from 6 pm to 8 pm. Today it
popped the price from $25/MWh to $120/MWh. I have seen it as much as
$2,000/MWh when the dusk wind did not come up and the wind turbines
stayed at 3,000 MW and did not move up to 10,000+ MW as they usually do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_curve

Lynn

Scott Lurndal

2024-07-19 16:38:49 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
We (ERCOT) were pulling 600 MW off the eastern grid today after the
solar power plants stopped making power between 6pm and 8pm.

In california, we export (and store in batteries) energy during the
day, then draw down the batteries (and import a bit) during the evening
hours. During the day, about half of our electricity comes from solar.

It's been great - during the 9 day heat wave (100teens every day
in much of the state) last week, we still had
a surplus generation capacity of about 11Gw every day. Much
of what we import at night comes from northwest hydro.

As I type this, the state demand is 32,007 mw, solar provides
18,309 mw, CH4 provides 8,024mw, and 4,851 mw is being used to
charge batteries for this evening and we're importing 2028 mw.

Current capacity is 55,514mw and today's forecast peak is 41,467mw.

Valley temperatures will be in the 100's today from the grapevine
to Mt. Shasta.

Michael F. Stemper

2024-07-19 18:20:39 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
We (ERCOT) were pulling 600 MW off the eastern grid today after the
solar power plants stopped making power between 6pm and 8pm.

In california, we export (and store in batteries) energy during the
day, then draw down the batteries (and import a bit) during the evening
hours. During the day, about half of our electricity comes from solar.
It's been great - during the 9 day heat wave (100teens every day
in much of the state) last week, we still had
a surplus generation capacity of about 11Gw every day. Much
of what we import at night comes from northwest hydro.
As I type this, the state demand is 32,007 mw, solar provides
18,309 mw, CH4 provides 8,024mw, and 4,851 mw is being used to
charge batteries for this evening and we're importing 2028 mw.

Is there some kind of Cal-ISO web page from which you're extracting
these data? If so, can you share?

--
Michael F. Stemper
Psalm 94:3-6

Scott Lurndal

2024-07-19 18:58:47 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
We (ERCOT) were pulling 600 MW off the eastern grid today after the
solar power plants stopped making power between 6pm and 8pm.

In california, we export (and store in batteries) energy during the
day, then draw down the batteries (and import a bit) during the evening
hours. During the day, about half of our electricity comes from solar.
It's been great - during the 9 day heat wave (100teens every day
in much of the state) last week, we still had
a surplus generation capacity of about 11Gw every day. Much
of what we import at night comes from northwest hydro.
As I type this, the state demand is 32,007 mw, solar provides
18,309 mw, CH4 provides 8,024mw, and 4,851 mw is being used to
charge batteries for this evening and we're importing 2028 mw.

Is there some kind of Cal-ISO web page from which you're extracting
these data? If so, can you share?

Sure, although a google search for cal iso supply might be rewarding.

https://www.caiso.com/todays-outlook/supply

Scott Lurndal

2024-07-19 19:01:19 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
We (ERCOT) were pulling 600 MW off the eastern grid today after the
solar power plants stopped making power between 6pm and 8pm.

In california, we export (and store in batteries) energy during the
day, then draw down the batteries (and import a bit) during the evening
hours. During the day, about half of our electricity comes from solar.
It's been great - during the 9 day heat wave (100teens every day
in much of the state) last week, we still had
a surplus generation capacity of about 11Gw every day. Much
of what we import at night comes from northwest hydro.
As I type this, the state demand is 32,007 mw, solar provides
18,309 mw, CH4 provides 8,024mw, and 4,851 mw is being used to
charge batteries for this evening and we're importing 2028 mw.

Is there some kind of Cal-ISO web page from which you're extracting
these data? If so, can you share?

Sure, although a google search for cal iso supply might be rewarding.
https://www.caiso.com/todays-outlook/supply

It's much easier to use than the texas ERCOT version :-)

Dimensional Traveler

2024-07-20 01:07:01 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
We (ERCOT) were pulling 600 MW off the eastern grid today after the
solar power plants stopped making power between 6pm and 8pm.

In california, we export (and store in batteries) energy during the
day, then draw down the batteries (and import a bit) during the evening
hours. During the day, about half of our electricity comes from solar.
It's been great - during the 9 day heat wave (100teens every day
in much of the state) last week, we still had
a surplus generation capacity of about 11Gw every day. Much
of what we import at night comes from northwest hydro.
As I type this, the state demand is 32,007 mw, solar provides
18,309 mw, CH4 provides 8,024mw, and 4,851 mw is being used to
charge batteries for this evening and we're importing 2028 mw.

Is there some kind of Cal-ISO web page from which you're extracting
these data? If so, can you share?

Sure, although a google search for cal iso supply might be rewarding.
https://www.caiso.com/todays-outlook/supply

It's much easier to use than the texas ERCOT version :-)

Well that could be because the Texas version might not be intended to be
usable by the public.... :P

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Michael F. Stemper

2024-07-19 19:46:03 UTC

Post by Scott Lurndal
In california, we export (and store in batteries) energy during the
day, then draw down the batteries (and import a bit) during the evening
hours. During the day, about half of our electricity comes from solar.
It's been great - during the 9 day heat wave (100teens every day
in much of the state) last week, we still had
a surplus generation capacity of about 11Gw every day. Much
of what we import at night comes from northwest hydro.
As I type this, the state demand is 32,007 mw, solar provides
18,309 mw, CH4 provides 8,024mw, and 4,851 mw is being used to
charge batteries for this evening and we're importing 2028 mw.

Is there some kind of Cal-ISO web page from which you're extracting
these data? If so, can you share?

Sure, although a google search for cal iso supply might be rewarding.
https://www.caiso.com/todays-outlook/supply

Looks great; thanks!

I never would have thought of the word "supply". I would have tried
"generation balance", maybe "sources". I never have the right search
terms for anything. :-<

--
Michael F. Stemper
Economists have correctly predicted seven of the last three recessions.

r***@rosettacondot.com

2024-07-19 20:17:05 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
We (ERCOT) were pulling 600 MW off the eastern grid today after the
solar power plants stopped making power between 6pm and 8pm.

In california, we export (and store in batteries) energy during the
day, then draw down the batteries (and import a bit) during the evening
hours. During the day, about half of our electricity comes from solar.
It's been great - during the 9 day heat wave (100teens every day
in much of the state) last week, we still had
a surplus generation capacity of about 11Gw every day. Much
of what we import at night comes from northwest hydro.
As I type this, the state demand is 32,007 mw, solar provides
18,309 mw, CH4 provides 8,024mw, and 4,851 mw is being used to
charge batteries for this evening and we're importing 2028 mw.

Is there some kind of Cal-ISO web page from which you're extracting
these data? If so, can you share?

Sure, although a google search for cal iso supply might be rewarding.
https://www.caiso.com/todays-outlook/supply

Here's the equivalent for Texas:
https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards

Current demand is 72,454 MW and committed capacity is 83,787 MW.
Theoretical capacity is 158,847 MW. It never comes close because it's extremely
unlikely to get peak solar and wind across the entire state at the same time.

Robert

--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

Torbjorn Lindgren

2024-07-20 12:33:50 UTC

Post by Scott Lurndal
As I type this, the state demand is 32,007 mw, solar provides
18,309 mw, CH4 provides 8,024mw, and 4,851 mw is being used to
charge batteries for this evening and we're importing 2028 mw.

Is there some kind of Cal-ISO web page from which you're extracting
these data? If so, can you share?

Sure, although a google search for cal iso supply might be rewarding.
https://www.caiso.com/todays-outlook/supply

https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards

Access Denied
Error 16

If you believe you have a valid business reason for accessing ERCOT
resources, please contact the ERCOT Service Desk at
***@ercot.com.

The CA page works fine. As does this:

https://www.eia.gov/electricity/gridmonitor/dashboard/electric_overview/US48/US48

Their US48 map allows drilling down to Regions (not Interconnects aka
synchronous grids), but for Texas those are the same thing so it's
possible to get most of the information via them. It's not as nice as
the CA pages quoted earlier but at least it works.

Hmm, several US region dashboards I checked also work from outside the
US, it looks like it's just ERCOT choosing to be ********...

r***@rosettacondot.com

2024-07-20 20:51:30 UTC

Post by Torbjorn Lindgren

Is there some kind of Cal-ISO web page from which you're extracting
these data? If so, can you share?

Sure, although a google search for cal iso supply might be rewarding.
https://www.caiso.com/todays-outlook/supply

https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards

Access Denied
Error 16
If you believe you have a valid business reason for accessing ERCOT
resources, please contact the ERCOT Service Desk at
https://www.eia.gov/electricity/gridmonitor/dashboard/electric_overview/US48/US48
Their US48 map allows drilling down to Regions (not Interconnects aka
synchronous grids), but for Texas those are the same thing so it's
possible to get most of the information via them. It's not as nice as
the CA pages quoted earlier but at least it works.
Hmm, several US region dashboards I checked also work from outside the
US, it looks like it's just ERCOT choosing to be ********...

Paranoid security people. I do the same thing on my personal stuff, but I
blacklist just the top members of the rogues' gallery.

Robert

--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

Lynn McGuire

2024-07-22 21:59:31 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
We (ERCOT) were pulling 600 MW off the eastern grid today after the
solar power plants stopped making power between 6pm and 8pm.

In california, we export (and store in batteries) energy during the
day, then draw down the batteries (and import a bit) during the evening
hours. During the day, about half of our electricity comes from solar.
It's been great - during the 9 day heat wave (100teens every day
in much of the state) last week, we still had
a surplus generation capacity of about 11Gw every day. Much
of what we import at night comes from northwest hydro.
As I type this, the state demand is 32,007 mw, solar provides
18,309 mw, CH4 provides 8,024mw, and 4,851 mw is being used to
charge batteries for this evening and we're importing 2028 mw.
Current capacity is 55,514mw and today's forecast peak is 41,467mw.
Valley temperatures will be in the 100's today from the grapevine
to Mt. Shasta.

Texas is about 3X all of that. Peak load is over 100,000 MW when you
count the refineries and chemical plants who make their own power and
sell the excess to the grid (ERCOT). ERCOT current capacity is over
150,000 MW and will be over 160,000 MW by the end of this year.

And Texas has 7,849 MW of batteries and will be 10,000 MW by the end of
the year. People are buying cheap wind turbine power from midnight to 6
am and reselling it to the grid at 6pm when the solar fails and people
are getting home from work.

Lynn

Scott Lurndal

2024-07-23 00:05:48 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
We (ERCOT) were pulling 600 MW off the eastern grid today after the
solar power plants stopped making power between 6pm and 8pm.

In california, we export (and store in batteries) energy during the
day, then draw down the batteries (and import a bit) during the evening
hours. During the day, about half of our electricity comes from solar.
It's been great - during the 9 day heat wave (100teens every day
in much of the state) last week, we still had
a surplus generation capacity of about 11Gw every day. Much
of what we import at night comes from northwest hydro.
As I type this, the state demand is 32,007 mw, solar provides
18,309 mw, CH4 provides 8,024mw, and 4,851 mw is being used to
charge batteries for this evening and we're importing 2028 mw.
Current capacity is 55,514mw and today's forecast peak is 41,467mw.
Valley temperatures will be in the 100's today from the grapevine
to Mt. Shasta.

Texas is about 3X all of that. Peak load is over 100,000 MW when you
count the refineries and chemical plants who make their own power and
sell the excess to the grid (ERCOT). ERCOT current capacity is over
150,000 MW and will be over 160,000 MW by the end of this year.
And Texas has 7,849 MW of batteries and will be 10,000 MW by the end of
the year. People are buying cheap wind turbine power from midnight to 6
am and reselling it to the grid at 6pm when the solar fails and people
are getting home from work.

California's population is 130% of Texas, so the usage per-capita
is significantly less than Texas (like 70% less). In part due to the last two decades
of state support for energy efficient lighting, heating, stringent
building codes emphasizing energy efficiency and computer data
centers (e.g. EnergyStar).

Lynn McGuire

2024-07-23 01:56:16 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
We (ERCOT) were pulling 600 MW off the eastern grid today after the
solar power plants stopped making power between 6pm and 8pm.

In california, we export (and store in batteries) energy during the
day, then draw down the batteries (and import a bit) during the evening
hours. During the day, about half of our electricity comes from solar.
It's been great - during the 9 day heat wave (100teens every day
in much of the state) last week, we still had
a surplus generation capacity of about 11Gw every day. Much
of what we import at night comes from northwest hydro.
As I type this, the state demand is 32,007 mw, solar provides
18,309 mw, CH4 provides 8,024mw, and 4,851 mw is being used to
charge batteries for this evening and we're importing 2028 mw.
Current capacity is 55,514mw and today's forecast peak is 41,467mw.
Valley temperatures will be in the 100's today from the grapevine
to Mt. Shasta.

Texas is about 3X all of that. Peak load is over 100,000 MW when you
count the refineries and chemical plants who make their own power and
sell the excess to the grid (ERCOT). ERCOT current capacity is over
150,000 MW and will be over 160,000 MW by the end of this year.
And Texas has 7,849 MW of batteries and will be 10,000 MW by the end of
the year. People are buying cheap wind turbine power from midnight to 6
am and reselling it to the grid at 6pm when the solar fails and people
are getting home from work.

Texas is far more industrialized than California. About a 1/4 (maybe
1/3rd now with eight more refineries closing in the last couple of
years) of gasoline and diesel in the USA are made in Texas. Half of the
LNG for resale outside of the USA is made in Texas. Half of the plastic
pellets in the world are made in Texas. Much wallboard, wood, etc is
made here. All of the industry uses quite a bit of electric power.

And then there is the very warm climate compared to California's
moderate climate for most of its citizens who live along the coast. Air
conditioning and heating (yes, Texas has much electric winter heating)
are very prevalent here. I have seen it 113 F (1999) and 6 F (1983)
here on the Gulf Coast. North and Central Texas have much more extremes.

And much of California's industry is moving to Texas due to the business
friendly governments and cheaper utility costs. Tesla and X just
announced their plans to move but hundreds have already left.

Like other landlords, I have changed out the incandescent and metal
halide lighting for LED lighting now in my commercial buildings. It
just makes too much sense to reduce the electric and heat load on the
buildings. Changing those 1,000 watt metal halide fixtures for 200 watt
LED fixtures was a pain but my tenants really enjoy the lower electric
bills and the instant on lights, the ten minute wait was dangerous.

Lynn

Scott Lurndal

2024-07-23 13:32:25 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
And Texas has 7,849 MW of batteries and will be 10,000 MW by the end of
the year. People are buying cheap wind turbine power from midnight to 6
am and reselling it to the grid at 6pm when the solar fails and people
are getting home from work.

Texas is far more industrialized than California.

Is it? California has refineries all along the coast from
the beaches of LA to the shores of SF bay.

It also has the 9th largest economy in the world.

Post by Lynn McGuire
And then there is the very warm climate compared to California's
moderate climate for most of its citizens who live along the coast.

Most of whom live in the valleys (San Gabriel, San Fernando,
Santa Clara, Napa, Sonoma et alia). 90 to 100 degree temperatures are
de rigueur in most of the valleys during the summertime.

Air

Post by Lynn McGuire
conditioning and heating (yes, Texas has much electric winter heating)
are very prevalent here. I have seen it 113 F (1999) and 6 F (1983)
here on the Gulf Coast. North and Central Texas have much more extremes.

The main differences are in the humdity (generally very low in the
summertime in California) and for certain coastal regions,
overnight cooling (yesterday it was 50F at 0600 and 100F at 1300).

Don't try to tell someone in Fresno, Bakersfield or Redding that
they don't have extreme temperatures in the summertime.

Post by Lynn McGuire
And much of California's industry is moving to Texas due to the business

Horseshit. Tesla moved their HQ, not their manufacturing.

William Hyde

2024-07-23 20:22:48 UTC

Texas is far more industrialized than California.

Is it?

Apparently not.

According to the national association of manufacturers, in the most
recent year for which data is available, California's manufacturing
output was 324 billion, Texas' 241 billion.

The work forces in this area are 1.2 million and 880k, respectively.

William Hyde

Paul S Person

2024-07-23 16:04:13 UTC

On Mon, 22 Jul 2024 16:59:31 -0500, Lynn McGuire

Post by Lynn McGuire
We (ERCOT) were pulling 600 MW off the eastern grid today after the
solar power plants stopped making power between 6pm and 8pm.

In california, we export (and store in batteries) energy during the
day, then draw down the batteries (and import a bit) during the evening
hours. During the day, about half of our electricity comes from solar.
It's been great - during the 9 day heat wave (100teens every day
in much of the state) last week, we still had
a surplus generation capacity of about 11Gw every day. Much
of what we import at night comes from northwest hydro.
As I type this, the state demand is 32,007 mw, solar provides
18,309 mw, CH4 provides 8,024mw, and 4,851 mw is being used to
charge batteries for this evening and we're importing 2028 mw.
Current capacity is 55,514mw and today's forecast peak is 41,467mw.
Valley temperatures will be in the 100's today from the grapevine
to Mt. Shasta.

Texas is about 3X all of that. Peak load is over 100,000 MW when you
count the refineries and chemical plants who make their own power and
sell the excess to the grid (ERCOT). ERCOT current capacity is over
150,000 MW and will be over 160,000 MW by the end of this year.
And Texas has 7,849 MW of batteries and will be 10,000 MW by the end of
the year. People are buying cheap wind turbine power from midnight to 6
am and reselling it to the grid at 6pm when the solar fails and people
are getting home from work.

My last Homeowner's bill came with an interesting Amendment:

Home power generation systems are /not/ [1] business activities even
if some of the power is sold to a power distributor [2], whether for
cash or for credits.

Apparently, this is indeed becoming common enough to affect something
as old and (for most people) boring as Homeowner's Insurance.

There was also something about the sales being "incidental" or the
purpose of the home power generation system being to power the house,
not sell the electricity, but this should work for most people.

Which is good; I have seen at least one article suggesting that houses
with solar panels /could/ be hooked up to the distribution network in
such a way that they could actually create the network and keep it
stable. As if each house were, indeed, a power generator. This, IIRC,
had to do with the difference in which commercial solar panels/wind
farms are connected and the way home systems are.

[1] My guess is that there was some ambiguity on this point.
[2] I forget the language, but it was pretty clear that whatever your
home was hooked up to to draw power from would do.

--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

Scott Dorsey

2024-07-19 14:45:33 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
We have been living the dream of Beryl down here in Houston for almost
two weeks now.Â Lived on the genny for four days.Â Walking outside, it
was a concert of genny's in all directions.

Partly because Texas refuses to be connected to the rest of the North
American power grid....

Kind of. Texas now has two DC interconnects to the two North American grids,
which allows them to share power without having frequency management issues
or accept government regulation from the FERC (which does include a lot of
silliness but also includes standards for safety margins that are worth
following).
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

r***@rosettacondot.com

2024-07-19 19:40:17 UTC

Partly because Texas refuses to be connected to the rest of the North
American power grid....

Texas has had DC grid ties for years, they're just not high enough capacity to
make much difference statewide (aggregate of around 1 GW I believe). Peak
summer demand is somewhere around 85 GW.
It's doubtful that any realistic grid ties would have done more than reduce
the scope and duration of the rolling blackouts during winter storm Uri.
Demand was around double available capacity...a shortfall of at least 35 GW.
There's been a huge change in potential winter demand as residences moved
from gas heating to heat pumps and population increased. With the entire state
below freezing (and many areas below 0 F) there were a lot of heat pumps
running in "emergency" mode. In our case that changed our power consumption for
heating from 5 kW to 15 kW. I'm not sure anybody knows what the "real" demand
was or would have been. We only had power about 1/3 of the time (15 minutes on,
30 minutes off) during the height of the rolling blackouts, but when we did
have it we were running all out...a space heater trying to keep our gecko
alive, the heat pump running in emergency mode and the (electric) oven on with
the door open. I'm guessing 20+ kW. I think we hit a low of 50F in the house.
Even with rolling blackouts we used a normal February's amount of electricity
in four days.

Robert

--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

Scott Dorsey

2024-07-20 01:26:35 UTC

Post by r***@rosettacondot.com
Texas has had DC grid ties for years, they're just not high enough capacity to
make much difference statewide (aggregate of around 1 GW I believe). Peak
summer demand is somewhere around 85 GW.
It's doubtful that any realistic grid ties would have done more than reduce
the scope and duration of the rolling blackouts during winter storm Uri.
Demand was around double available capacity...a shortfall of at least 35 GW.

I don't think anyone is claiming that the additional capacity of larger
grid ties would have made much difference. I think people are arguing that
the additional design margins required by federal law that would have been
demanded had there been AC grid ties would have made a difference.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

r***@rosettacondot.com

2024-07-20 20:02:02 UTC

It's mainly winterizing everything (the gas supply chain in particular) that
would have made a difference. In theory they had the margins...they lost
close to half of the production they were counting on as gas supplies froze
up, turbines froze up, windmills froze up, solar panels got covered in ice and
snow, etc. They already knew it needed to be done...Uri was round 2...but
nobody wants to be the one that gets blamed for raising everyone's electric
bills. At the time it was estimated at something like $10/month added to the
average electric bill, with somewhat less added to the average gas bill.
Probably closer to $20 now.

Robert

--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

Lynn McGuire

2024-07-22 22:24:23 UTC

Post by r***@rosettacondot.com

The natural gas production wells were winterized in the Feb 2021 winter
storm. My current business was a part of that 20 year project as I put
the capability to model wellhead hydrate injection systems into my
software at the urging of many customers.

The problem was that ERCOT in their infinite wisdom, shut off the
electricity to the natural gas wellheads in the Permian Basin in Feb
2021 where 80% of the natural gas peaking systems are present. Those
wellhead hydrate injection system all use a 100 hp to 400 hp electric
pump to circulate the ethylene glycol (most common) or the methanol
through the wellhead. All of the wellhead protection systems failed
when the electricity was shut off.

Many of my customers have added emergency generators to their wellhead
systems now. None of them trust ERCOT anymore even though ERCOT has
promised never to shut down Permian Basin again.

Lynn

Lynn McGuire

2024-07-22 22:13:53 UTC

Post by r***@rosettacondot.com

Partly because Texas refuses to be connected to the rest of the North
American power grid....

ERCOT only includes residential and commercial demand in their demand
calcs. ERCOT does not include gross industrial power generation from
the refineries and chemical plants, only the net that is sold to the
grid. The industrial power generation in Texas is over 20,000 MW, it is
a hard number to get a hold of and changes over time as plants are added
or closed.

For instance, the big Alcoa Aluminum plant in Rockdale, Texas used about
600 MW for the nine aluminum potlines before they were closed down in
2008. Whereas the four older lignite units could generate about 900 MW
(net) until the oldest three 1950s units (360 MW net) were replaced in
2009 with a single unit that could generate 580 MW (net) for a plant
total of 1,137 MW (net).

Lynn

Chris Buckley

2024-07-17 22:56:11 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:47:12 -0600, John Savard

I could comment that your posting is itself a dystopian SF story,
about a world where giant oil companies have managed to control the
political system and hypnotize the populace so as to prevent any
effective response to global warming...
if it weren't for the fact that it seems like calling that scenario
"fiction" has already proven to be over-optimistic.

One of the two theories I have seen on why the Texas electrical system
died again (if that actually happened;

According to news stories I have seen, some parts of Texas are not
scheduled to regain power until July 19.
When I lived in College Station, TX, I experienced more power outages
per unit time than I have anywhere else (the situation here is
deteriorating, though) but it was never gone for more than a few hours.

The press stories out of Houston seem eerily familiar to me. We (even
with buried power lines) lost power for 4 days in the 2012 derecho in
our area (DC), but others were well over a week without power in near
100 degree heat. As I recall, Pepco won an award for the most hated
company in the US that year!

The derecho weakened trees for years afterwards; Pepco had to go on a very
massive tree cutting/pruning spree for the next 5 years before they really
got a handle on everything. I wonder if that's a major cause of the
extensive damage in Houston this storm (an earlier derecho this year I think?)

Chris

Lynn McGuire

2024-07-18 00:09:06 UTC

Post by Chris Buckley

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:47:12 -0600, John Savard

I could comment that your posting is itself a dystopian SF story,
about a world where giant oil companies have managed to control the
political system and hypnotize the populace so as to prevent any
effective response to global warming...
if it weren't for the fact that it seems like calling that scenario
"fiction" has already proven to be over-optimistic.

One of the two theories I have seen on why the Texas electrical system
died again (if that actually happened;

According to news stories I have seen, some parts of Texas are not
scheduled to regain power until July 19.
When I lived in College Station, TX, I experienced more power outages
per unit time than I have anywhere else (the situation here is
deteriorating, though) but it was never gone for more than a few hours.

The press stories out of Houston seem eerily familiar to me. We (even
with buried power lines) lost power for 4 days in the 2012 derecho in
our area (DC), but others were well over a week without power in near
100 degree heat. As I recall, Pepco won an award for the most hated
company in the US that year!
The derecho weakened trees for years afterwards; Pepco had to go on a very
massive tree cutting/pruning spree for the next 5 years before they really
got a handle on everything. I wonder if that's a major cause of the
extensive damage in Houston this storm (an earlier derecho this year I think?)
Chris

The derecho in May 2024 in Houston was localized to the Northeast side
and central area of Houston. It did incredible damage. The local T&D
(transmission and distribution) called in several thousand linemen for a
month afterwards to fix things.

The damage from Hurricane Beryl is all over the entire metropolitan area
(9 counties, 8 million people) of Houston. My neighborhood in the
southwest side of Houston has the trees severely damaged. Probably 1 in
10 trees are down. And these are 40 foot to 75 foot tall trees. I did
not lose any trees (I only have three on my 1.2 acres) but I have a
branch pile 50 feet long in my front yard at the street.

It is obvious that the T&D (Centerpoint) is going to have to get very
aggressive about cutting back trees in Houston. Houston is probably the
largest city with number of trees in USA.

Lynn

Paul S Person

2024-07-18 17:32:41 UTC

On Wed, 17 Jul 2024 16:05:55 -0400, William Hyde

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:47:12 -0600, John Savard

I could comment that your posting is itself a dystopian SF story,
about a world where giant oil companies have managed to control the
political system and hypnotize the populace so as to prevent any
effective response to global warming...
if it weren't for the fact that it seems like calling that scenario
"fiction" has already proven to be over-optimistic.

One of the two theories I have seen on why the Texas electrical system
died again (if that actually happened;

According to news stories I have seen, some parts of Texas are not
scheduled to regain power until July 19.
When I lived in College Station, TX, I experienced more power outages
per unit time than I have anywhere else (the situation here is
deteriorating, though) but it was never gone for more than a few hours.

It used to be (two or three decades ago, now) that we had power
outages once or twice a year. These were preceded by a loud "pop" and
the cawing of what sounded like hundreds if not thousands of crows.

Almost as if some teenage crow, contemptuous of it's elders advice to
not pick the strange fruit on those weird trees, and done so, been
electrocuted, and blew the transformer.

True story: after one of these incidents, we (and a few neighbors)
were without power for days after everyone else's had been restored.
At one point I got out a pair of low-power opera glasses and saw a
dead crow on top of the nearest transformer. My brothers, of course,
immediately showed their confidence in me by grabbing the glasses and
seeing for themselves. A power company vehicle came by, slowed down,
look at the transformer and then moved off.

One of my brothers chased them down and told them what we had seen (he
wouldn't have done this if he hadn't seen it too) and brought them
back. It turned out that the dead crow had indeed killed the
tranformer, but the tranformer /door/ had failed to open all the way
so it looked OK from the street. Ah, technology!

But as time went on this died down. A few years ago it was more common
to have the power drop and come back up ... and then drop and stay
dropped. And then it dropped only part of the time, recovering on its
own the rest of the time. But it has been a long time since that
happened. Apparently, City Light has improved its delivery system
(both above and below ground).

Not that a major storm knocking down trees and/or poles won't have a
negative effect on the electricity supply. Of course it will. And even
here, where the water table may not be as much of a concern, there are
problems with working on power lines that are underground. Or so I
have read.

--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

WolfFan

2024-07-22 20:08:37 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:47:12 -0600, John Savard

I could comment that your posting is itself a dystopian SF story,
about a world where giant oil companies have managed to control the
political system and hypnotize the populace so as to prevent any
effective response to global warming...
if it weren't for the fact that it seems like calling that scenario
"fiction" has already proven to be over-optimistic.

One of the two theories I have seen on why the Texas electrical system
died again (if that actually happened;

According to news stories I have seen, some parts of Texas are not
scheduled to regain power until July 19.
When I lived in College Station, TX, I experienced more power outages
per unit time than I have anywhere else (the situation here is
deteriorating, though) but it was never gone for more than a few hours.
William Hyde

Here in Deepest South Florida, we have record-setting high temps every few
days. FPL lives up to its name (Frequent Power Loss) or its nickname (Florida
Flicker and Flash). My first job was for an electric utility in Jamaica.
Heads would have rolled if we had even half as many power outages as FPL.
After Hurricane Gilbert, crews from various utilities came to help restore
power. We found that we had to follow around behind the FPL crews and, if
necessary, fix their fixes. The guys from Puerto Rico and Georgia and the
Carolinas were pretty good. And we had some Royal Navy and Royal Engineers
who were superb. FPL ranged from competent to somewhat less than competent.

William Hyde

2024-07-22 21:22:21 UTC

Post by WolfFan

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:47:12 -0600, John Savard

I could comment that your posting is itself a dystopian SF story,
about a world where giant oil companies have managed to control the
political system and hypnotize the populace so as to prevent any
effective response to global warming...
if it weren't for the fact that it seems like calling that scenario
"fiction" has already proven to be over-optimistic.

One of the two theories I have seen on why the Texas electrical system
died again (if that actually happened;

According to news stories I have seen, some parts of Texas are not
scheduled to regain power until July 19.
When I lived in College Station, TX, I experienced more power outages
per unit time than I have anywhere else (the situation here is
deteriorating, though) but it was never gone for more than a few hours.
William Hyde

I don't know if your problem is like ours, which seems to be simple
nepotism.

When the current provincial government was elected, the premier tried to
put an elderly family friend in as head of the Ontario Provincial
Police. He was a policeman of some rank, but it would be the
equivalent of promoting a colonel to full general. At age 72.

He then tried to hire two children of close friends and advisors to
trade posts in NY and London at 140,000 and 160,000 k per year. They
were, of course, without any reasonable qualification for these
lucrative posts.

And these were the cases prominent enough to make the news. Who knows
what is going on in less public jobs?

In the Walkerton fiasco a competent drunk hired a couple of incompetent
drunks to work with him (presumably so his co-workers wouldn't object to
his drinking on the job). When he died, one of them was hired in his
place by someone who didn't bother to examine the drunk's utter lack of
credentials.

The media have not reported on any incompetence as a cause for the
explosion of downtown Wheatley a couple of years ago. I wonder, though.
It's not like small towns in Ontario blow up all that often.

I've always thought that "The Inspector General" is an amusing but
unrealistic story. People won't just forget how to maintain their
technology, will then?

William Hyde

WolfFan

2024-07-22 23:55:56 UTC

Post by WolfFan

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:47:12 -0600, John Savard

I could comment that your posting is itself a dystopian SF story,
about a world where giant oil companies have managed to control the
political system and hypnotize the populace so as to prevent any
effective response to global warming...
if it weren't for the fact that it seems like calling that scenario
"fiction" has already proven to be over-optimistic.

One of the two theories I have seen on why the Texas electrical system
died again (if that actually happened;

According to news stories I have seen, some parts of Texas are not
scheduled to regain power until July 19.
When I lived in College Station, TX, I experienced more power outages
per unit time than I have anywhere else (the situation here is
deteriorating, though) but it was never gone for more than a few hours.
William Hyde

I don't know if your problem is like ours, which seems to be simple
nepotism.

it’s just incompetence on a vast scale. FPL isn’t even the worst utility
in Florida; that would be Lake Worth Power. LWP is where nepotism went to be
born again. Part of FPL’s problem is that Florida is a big, flat, state,
which has lots of thunderstorms. Thunderstorms and high-tension transmission
lines don’t go well together. Florida is also home to Florida Man. Florida
Man loves his beer. Beer plus Florida Man plus a pickup truck plus a utility
pole equals a power outage. FPL is putting up concrete poles in certain areas
because they are tired of replacing the wooden ones. Of course if FPL would
design its grid properly in the first place the outages would not hit so many
customers...

Post by William Hyde
When the current provincial government was elected, the premier tried to
put an elderly family friend in as head of the Ontario Provincial
Police. He was a policeman of some rank, but it would be the
equivalent of promoting a colonel to full general. At age 72.
He then tried to hire two children of close friends and advisors to
trade posts in NY and London at 140,000 and 160,000 k per year. They
were, of course, without any reasonable qualification for these
lucrative posts.
And these were the cases prominent enough to make the news. Who knows
what is going on in less public jobs?

that sounds awfully like Dade County, or as the Miami Herald, the
Sun-Sentinel, and the Pam Beach Post call it, ‘Corruption County’. At one
point three of five Miami mayors were guests of the Federal government at one
of the Feds’ fine gray bar hotels, and another was a guest of the state at
a state establishment. A Metro-Dade, later Miami-Dade, police chief and a
Broward County Sheriff were also guests of the Feds.

Post by William Hyde
In the Walkerton fiasco a competent drunk hired a couple of incompetent
drunks to work with him (presumably so his co-workers wouldn't object to
his drinking on the job). When he died, one of them was hired in his
place by someone who didn't bother to examine the drunk's utter lack of
credentials.

that’s Dade. Dade County changed its name to Miami-Dade County. (Everyone
still calls it Dade; when Dwayne Wade and the Miami Heat were riding high,
there was a big sign on I-95 welcoming you to Wade County. Embarassed the
hell out of Wade.) Which meant that every single official vehicle had to be
repainted in the new colors with the new logo. Guess who had a friend in the
auto painting business... Every single official county form had to be redone.
Guess who had a friend in the printing business... And yes, he got to be a
guest of the Feds.

Post by William Hyde
The media have not reported on any incompetence as a cause for the
explosion of downtown Wheatley a couple of years ago. I wonder, though.
It's not like small towns in Ontario blow up all that often.

The closest we had to that was an apartment building blow up. There were code
violations all over, for years, but it was in Dade. Money talks. Until the
thing broke, killing dozens.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57690165

Post by William Hyde
I've always thought that "The Inspector General" is an amusing but
unrealistic story. People won't just forget how to maintain their
technology, will then?
William Hyde

William Hyde

2024-07-23 20:30:02 UTC

Post by WolfFan
.
that’s Dade. Dade County changed its name to Miami-Dade County. (Everyone
still calls it Dade; when Dwayne Wade and the Miami Heat were riding high,
there was a big sign on I-95 welcoming you to Wade County. Embarassed the
hell out of Wade.) Which meant that every single official vehicle had to be
repainted in the new colors with the new logo. Guess who had a friend in the
auto painting business... Every single official county form had to be redone.
Guess who had a friend in the printing business... And yes, he got to be a
guest of the Feds.

Many people from Ontario spend winter or part of winter in Florida. So
there's plenty of opportunity for cross-contamination.

Post by WolfFan

Those towers were built by a Canadian developer from Quebec, hence the
name. To what degree, if any, he was responsible for later poor
maintenance I do not know.

William Hyde

The Horny Goat

2024-08-01 19:37:25 UTC

RrOn Tue, 23 Jul 2024 16:30:02 -0400, William Hyde

Post by William Hyde
Many people from Ontario spend winter or part of winter in Florida. So
there's plenty of opportunity for cross-contamination.

Could be worse - some 30-40 years ago they ran a tourist promotion
inviting people to Ontari-air-io.

One wonders how many Americans were confused.

Mind you I've met a few Americans thinking British Columbia was in
Central America...and that we spoke Spanish. Uh no.

James Nicoll

2024-08-01 21:02:59 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
RrOn Tue, 23 Jul 2024 16:30:02 -0400, William Hyde

Post by William Hyde
Many people from Ontario spend winter or part of winter in Florida. So
there's plenty of opportunity for cross-contamination.

Could be worse - some 30-40 years ago they ran a tourist promotion
inviting people to Ontari-air-io.
One wonders how many Americans were confused.
Mind you I've met a few Americans thinking British Columbia was in
Central America...and that we spoke Spanish. Uh no.

It goes both ways: I met an American at a Maritime Museum fundraiser
in SF who still angry that Canadian border guards asked him if he
was carrying any firearms. He was but he thought it was prejudiced
of them to assume they needed to ask every American that question.

(not, now that I think about, that he could have known if they did)

Scott Lurndal

2024-08-02 14:21:09 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
RrOn Tue, 23 Jul 2024 16:30:02 -0400, William Hyde

Post by William Hyde
Many people from Ontario spend winter or part of winter in Florida. So
there's plenty of opportunity for cross-contamination.

Could be worse - some 30-40 years ago they ran a tourist promotion
inviting people to Ontari-air-io.
One wonders how many Americans were confused.
Mind you I've met a few Americans thinking British Columbia was in
Central America...and that we spoke Spanish. Uh no.

That's not completely unexpected. Southern Californians will
associated BC with Baja California rather than British Columbia;
when I first moved to LA in the 80's, I couldn't figure out why
so many cars had British Columbia licence plates (BC).

The Horny Goat

2024-08-08 17:59:16 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
RrOn Tue, 23 Jul 2024 16:30:02 -0400, William Hyde

Post by William Hyde
Many people from Ontario spend winter or part of winter in Florida. So
there's plenty of opportunity for cross-contamination.

Could be worse - some 30-40 years ago they ran a tourist promotion
inviting people to Ontari-air-io.
One wonders how many Americans were confused.
Mind you I've met a few Americans thinking British Columbia was in
Central America...and that we spoke Spanish. Uh no.

I don't understand that since British Columbia licence plates have
ALWAYS had the name spelled out rather than the abbreviation. Even in
the days when the plates ALSO also had the tourist board logo on them
saying "Come to Beautiful BC"!

Scott Lurndal

2024-08-08 18:41:04 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat

Post by The Horny Goat
RrOn Tue, 23 Jul 2024 16:30:02 -0400, William Hyde

Post by William Hyde
Many people from Ontario spend winter or part of winter in Florida. So
there's plenty of opportunity for cross-contamination.

Could be worse - some 30-40 years ago they ran a tourist promotion
inviting people to Ontari-air-io.
One wonders how many Americans were confused.
Mind you I've met a few Americans thinking British Columbia was in
Central America...and that we spoke Spanish. Uh no.

I don't understand that since British Columbia licence plates have

How many Americans have ever _seen_ a British Columbia license plate,
outside of Washington state?

The Mexican plates were labeled 'Front BC'. (I, at the time, wondered
why it was necessary to have the front plate labelled as such, many years
later I learned that was an abbreviation of the Spanish word for Border).

Post by The Horny Goat
ALWAYS had the name spelled out rather than the abbreviation. Even in
the days when the plates ALSO also had the tourist board logo on them
saying "Come to Beautiful BC"!

Tony Nance

2024-08-08 20:43:31 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat

Post by The Horny Goat
RrOn Tue, 23 Jul 2024 16:30:02 -0400, William Hyde

Post by William Hyde
Many people from Ontario spend winter or part of winter in Florida. So
there's plenty of opportunity for cross-contamination.

Could be worse - some 30-40 years ago they ran a tourist promotion
inviting people to Ontari-air-io.
One wonders how many Americans were confused.
Mind you I've met a few Americans thinking British Columbia was in
Central America...and that we spoke Spanish. Uh no.

I don't understand that since British Columbia licence plates have

How many Americans have ever _seen_ a British Columbia license plate,
outside of Washington state?

Extrapolating from one person's data (mine): Not too many, at least not
east of the Mississippi River.

Over the last 3-4 years, we've done a lot of driving, almost all of it
east of the Mississippi River, and north of North Carolina. To alleviate
tedium and monotony while I'm doing the driving, one thing I do is keep
track of state/country license plates. I have seen British Columbia
plates, but it is rare.

Tony

r***@rosettacondot.com

2024-08-05 15:40:43 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
RrOn Tue, 23 Jul 2024 16:30:02 -0400, William Hyde

Post by William Hyde
Many people from Ontario spend winter or part of winter in Florida. So
there's plenty of opportunity for cross-contamination.

Could be worse - some 30-40 years ago they ran a tourist promotion
inviting people to Ontari-air-io.
One wonders how many Americans were confused.
Mind you I've met a few Americans thinking British Columbia was in
Central America...and that we spoke Spanish. Uh no.

It goes both ways: I met an American at a Maritime Museum fundraiser
in SF who still angry that Canadian border guards asked him if he
was carrying any firearms. He was but he thought it was prejudiced
of them to assume they needed to ask every American that question.
(not, now that I think about, that he could have known if they did)

They certainly asked me the one time I drove across the border. They sounded
surprised and vaguely disappointed that I didn't admit to having guns or
knives. I thought about asking if they had a shortage they were trying to
remedy, but "sense of humor" is not an attribute common to border guards.
(Although I did manage to crack one up coming in to the UK.)
On my flights into Canada they seemed primarily concerned that I wasn't there
to steal Canadian jobs.

Robert

--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

Scott Dorsey

2024-08-01 22:53:46 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
Mind you I've met a few Americans thinking British Columbia was in
Central America...and that we spoke Spanish. Uh no.

It's the country next to New Mexico.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

The Horny Goat

2024-08-08 17:56:23 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
Mind you I've met a few Americans thinking British Columbia was in
Central America...and that we spoke Spanish. Uh no.

It's the country next to New Mexico.
--scott

Heh heh - only separated by Washington, Oregon and California....

Haven't been there in 40 years and then it was just a trip to Tijuana
with my parents. (It was a day trip from where we were staying in Palm
Springs)

Don_from_AZ

2024-08-02 02:40:20 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
RrOn Tue, 23 Jul 2024 16:30:02 -0400, William Hyde

Post by William Hyde
Many people from Ontario spend winter or part of winter in Florida. So
there's plenty of opportunity for cross-contamination.

Could be worse - some 30-40 years ago they ran a tourist promotion
inviting people to Ontari-air-io.

I recall a ditty that ended:

"A place to stand, a place to grow...
Ontari-airi-airi-o"

back about 1968 or so; it's been stuck in my head for 56 years!

Post by The Horny Goat
One wonders how many Americans were confused.
Mind you I've met a few Americans thinking British Columbia was in
Central America...and that we spoke Spanish. Uh no.

James Nicoll

2024-08-02 13:12:58 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
RrOn Tue, 23 Jul 2024 16:30:02 -0400, William Hyde

Post by William Hyde
Many people from Ontario spend winter or part of winter in Florida. So
there's plenty of opportunity for cross-contamination.

Could be worse - some 30-40 years ago they ran a tourist promotion
inviting people to Ontari-air-io.

"A place to stand, a place to grow...
Ontari-airi-airi-o"
back about 1968 or so; it's been stuck in my head for 56 years!

1967: the Canadian Centenial.

Don_from_AZ

2024-08-02 14:53:41 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
RrOn Tue, 23 Jul 2024 16:30:02 -0400, William Hyde

Post by William Hyde
Many people from Ontario spend winter or part of winter in Florida. So
there's plenty of opportunity for cross-contamination.

Could be worse - some 30-40 years ago they ran a tourist promotion
inviting people to Ontari-air-io.

"A place to stand, a place to grow...
Ontari-airi-airi-o"
back about 1968 or so; it's been stuck in my head for 56 years!

1967: the Canadian Centenial.

Yes, you are probably right about it being 1967, James. Some friends and
I drove up to Montreal from Troy NY for Expo '67. Aside from someone
snapping off my radio antenna, probably because the car had a NY license
plate, it was a fun trip.
-Don-

James Nicoll

2024-08-02 15:54:01 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
RrOn Tue, 23 Jul 2024 16:30:02 -0400, William Hyde

Post by William Hyde
Many people from Ontario spend winter or part of winter in Florida. So
there's plenty of opportunity for cross-contamination.

Could be worse - some 30-40 years ago they ran a tourist promotion
inviting people to Ontari-air-io.

"A place to stand, a place to grow...
Ontari-airi-airi-o"
back about 1968 or so; it's been stuck in my head for 56 years!

1967: the Canadian Centenial.

I was in kindergarten in 1967 and learning all the words to that
song, and singing it over and over and over, was required.

William Hyde

2024-08-02 19:17:51 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
RrOn Tue, 23 Jul 2024 16:30:02 -0400, William Hyde

Post by William Hyde
Many people from Ontario spend winter or part of winter in Florida. So
there's plenty of opportunity for cross-contamination.

Could be worse - some 30-40 years ago they ran a tourist promotion
inviting people to Ontari-air-io.

"A place to stand, a place to grow...
Ontari-airi-airi-o"
back about 1968 or so; it's been stuck in my head for 56 years!

1967: the Canadian Centenial.

I was in kindergarten in 1967 and learning all the words to that
song, and singing it over and over and over, was required.

Dark times, dark times.

William Hyde

Scott Lurndal

2024-08-02 16:04:17 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
RrOn Tue, 23 Jul 2024 16:30:02 -0400, William Hyde

Post by William Hyde
Many people from Ontario spend winter or part of winter in Florida. So
there's plenty of opportunity for cross-contamination.

Could be worse - some 30-40 years ago they ran a tourist promotion
inviting people to Ontari-air-io.

"A place to stand, a place to grow...
Ontari-airi-airi-o"
back about 1968 or so; it's been stuck in my head for 56 years!

1967: the Canadian Centenial.

I was at that Expo as well, as a child. I recall Habitat, in particular.

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

2024-08-02 16:13:10 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
RrOn Tue, 23 Jul 2024 16:30:02 -0400, William Hyde

Post by William Hyde
Many people from Ontario spend winter or part of winter in Florida. So
there's plenty of opportunity for cross-contamination.

Could be worse - some 30-40 years ago they ran a tourist promotion
inviting people to Ontari-air-io.

"A place to stand, a place to grow...
Ontari-airi-airi-o"
back about 1968 or so; it's been stuck in my head for 56 years!

1967: the Canadian Centenial.

I was at that Expo as well, as a child. I recall Habitat, in particular.

Now 1970, that was the real deal!

http://columbiaclosings.com/wordpress/?p=74

--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

The Horny Goat

2024-08-08 18:02:56 UTC

On Fri, 02 Aug 2024 07:53:41 -0700, Don_from_AZ

Post by Don_from_AZ
Yes, you are probably right about it being 1967, James. Some friends and
I drove up to Montreal from Troy NY for Expo '67. Aside from someone
snapping off my radio antenna, probably because the car had a NY license
plate, it was a fun trip.

I also did that trip (though we took the train from Vancouver to
Toronto, had my grandmother's brother who lived in Toronto drive us
down to Burlington - about 45 minutes away - to pick up our new
mini-van at the plant. I was 11 years old at the time and had no idea
Burlington would be important to me as it was my future - and
regretably late - wife's home town. Her mother and brother still live
there.

As for Expo one of my chief memories was my grandmother's rage at me
for picking all that 'Communist propaganda' from the Soviet
pavilion...

James Nicoll

2024-08-08 18:10:01 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
On Fri, 02 Aug 2024 07:53:41 -0700, Don_from_AZ

I also did that trip (though we took the train from Vancouver to
Toronto, had my grandmother's brother who lived in Toronto drive us
down to Burlington - about 45 minutes away - to pick up our new
mini-van at the plant. I was 11 years old at the time and had no idea
Burlington would be important to me as it was my future - and
regretably late - wife's home town. Her mother and brother still live
there.
As for Expo one of my chief memories was my grandmother's rage at me
for picking all that 'Communist propaganda' from the Soviet
pavilion...

My parents went to Expo but left us kids behind in the care of a woman
named Mrs White, about whom I remember only three things: her name,
her ability to ruin mac & cheese, and that she refused to let me
walk alone to school in the evening on the facile grounds that I was
only 5 so I missed an event I had been promised. More importantly I
missed the starwberries that were served that night.

The Horny Goat

2024-08-08 17:57:27 UTC

On Thu, 01 Aug 2024 19:40:20 -0700, Don_from_AZ

Post by The Horny Goat
RrOn Tue, 23 Jul 2024 16:30:02 -0400, William Hyde

Post by William Hyde
Many people from Ontario spend winter or part of winter in Florida. So
there's plenty of opportunity for cross-contamination.

Could be worse - some 30-40 years ago they ran a tourist promotion
inviting people to Ontari-air-io.

"A place to stand, a place to grow...
Ontari-airi-airi-o"
back about 1968 or so; it's been stuck in my head for 56 years!

OK you've got me - I heard it when I was a grad student in an Ontario
school in the early 80s.

Lynn McGuire

2024-07-17 22:52:49 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:47:12 -0600, John Savard

I could comment that your posting is itself a dystopian SF story,
about a world where giant oil companies have managed to control the
political system and hypnotize the populace so as to prevent any
effective response to global warming...
if it weren't for the fact that it seems like calling that scenario
"fiction" has already proven to be over-optimistic.

...

I do not know of any Texas state funds being used for the State Crude
Oil and Natural Gas industry. On the contrary, they are the number one
tax payer in the state, the state universities are 100% funded by oil
and gas revenues, google Texas Permanent University Fund.

Please specify the exact amount of funds being paid from the State of
Texas to the Crude Oil and Natural Gas industries.

Lynn

Paul S Person

2024-07-18 17:22:09 UTC

On Wed, 17 Jul 2024 17:52:49 -0500, Lynn McGuire

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:47:12 -0600, John Savard

I could comment that your posting is itself a dystopian SF story,
about a world where giant oil companies have managed to control the
political system and hypnotize the populace so as to prevent any
effective response to global warming...
if it weren't for the fact that it seems like calling that scenario
"fiction" has already proven to be over-optimistic.

...
I do not know of any Texas state funds being used for the State Crude
Oil and Natural Gas industry. On the contrary, they are the number one
tax payer in the state, the state universities are 100% funded by oil
and gas revenues, google Texas Permanent University Fund.
Please specify the exact amount of funds being paid from the State of
Texas to the Crude Oil and Natural Gas industries.

That is a theory I read. As I noted, it is clearly biased.

As is the one blaming Biden.

--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

Scott Lurndal

2024-07-18 17:59:36 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 17 Jul 2024 17:52:49 -0500, Lynn McGuire

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:47:12 -0600, John Savard
=20

I could comment that your posting is itself a dystopian SF story,
about a world where giant oil companies have managed to control the
political system and hypnotize the populace so as to prevent any
effective response to global warming...
if it weren't for the fact that it seems like calling that scenario
"fiction" has already proven to be over-optimistic.

=20
One of the two theories I have seen on why the Texas electrical system
died again (if that actually happened; Bing seems to know nothing
about it, being fascinated by the event in 2021) is, indeed, that the
State of Texas, having funds that could have been used to fix the
problem, chose instead to shovel it into the pockets of the Oil
Industry. Typical Republican behavior.

...
I do not know of any Texas state funds being used for the State Crude=20
Oil and Natural Gas industry. On the contrary, they are the number one=20
tax payer in the state, the state universities are 100% funded by oil=20
and gas revenues, google Texas Permanent University Fund.
Please specify the exact amount of funds being paid from the State of=20
Texas to the Crude Oil and Natural Gas industries.

That is a theory I read. As I noted, it is clearly biased.

On the other hand, there are other methods of state support
that don't directly result in 'funds being paid from the State';
such as tax breaks.

'Spring, 1990, Senator Don Henderson [...] urged his
fellow state senators to give the oil patch some more
love. The Houston Republican, a lawyer closely allied
with the fossil-fuel industry, had introduced a bill to
slash the tax on natural gas wells deemed particularly
tough to develop. "They can be huuuuuuge wells," he
told the finance committee.'

'If these wells were so alluring, why did taxpayers
need to offer Texas drillers a handout? Because, Henderson
explained, the wells were "expensive and chancy." So much for
the image of risk-taking and self-sufficiency that the state's
oil and gas industry liked to tout'

'Its cost to other state taxpayers that year[2009, ed.], according
to a University of Texas study: $1.5 billion, or $169 per
household in the state.'

...

'According to this school of thought, the fossil-fuel industry
benefits not just from tax breaks such as Texas's provision
for high-cost gas wells but also from not having to reimburse
society for the myriad social and environmental costs of its
products. Chief among those dispensations is the freedom to
send skyward, without being taxed for them, the carbon emissions
that scientists say are a primary cause of climate change. Economists
have a word for such costs that should be accounted for but aren't:
externalities. Adding a carbon price to the calculation of energy
costs renders fossil fuels much more expensive than they now appear to be.'

'For 2020, UT projected those [Texas State ed.] subsidies as roughly $1.8 billion for
oil and gas ($170 per household), $1 billion for wind ($104),
and a comparatively small $19 million ($2) for solar.'

https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/energy-subsidies-fossil-fuels-renewables/
https://theintercept.com/2021/06/01/texas-subsidies-oil-companies/
https://www.texastribune.org/2021/05/03/texas-house-fossil-fuel-oil-divest/

'One of the baldest attempts to kneecap renewable energy - that is, to
indirectly subsidize fossil fuels - was a bill to add a
penny-per-kilowatt-hour surcharge to electricity customers' bills
for power from any source except natural gas.'

Dimensional Traveler

2024-07-19 00:52:38 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 17 Jul 2024 17:52:49 -0500, Lynn McGuire

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:47:12 -0600, John Savard
=20

I could comment that your posting is itself a dystopian SF story,
about a world where giant oil companies have managed to control the
political system and hypnotize the populace so as to prevent any
effective response to global warming...
if it weren't for the fact that it seems like calling that scenario
"fiction" has already proven to be over-optimistic.

That is a theory I read. As I noted, it is clearly biased.

Also so much for the definition of "alluring". "Expensive" and "chancy"
are not alluring words to hydrocarbon production.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Paul S Person

2024-07-19 17:30:44 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 17 Jul 2024 17:52:49 -0500, Lynn McGuire

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:47:12 -0600, John Savard
=20