Discussion:
Things presented in-story as Good Ideas that seem like really Bad Ideas
(too old to reply)
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-09-09 03:49:05 UTC
Permalink
Lucky Starr's "Council Of Science", the Venus Belt, the Federation's
"Prime Directive". Things like that.

Examples?

(How about we exempt Super-Powered Vigilantes)
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Charles Packer
2024-09-09 08:01:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Lucky Starr's "Council Of Science", the Venus Belt, the Federation's
"Prime Directive". Things like that.
Examples?
(How about we exempt Super-Powered Vigilantes)
For "Prime Directive," did you have in mind "With Folded Hands"
by Jack Williamson?
BillGill
2024-09-09 13:18:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Packer
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Lucky Starr's "Council Of Science", the Venus Belt, the Federation's
"Prime Directive". Things like that.
Examples?
(How about we exempt Super-Powered Vigilantes)
For "Prime Directive," did you have in mind "With Folded Hands"
by Jack Williamson?
My first thought was James Alan Gardner's 'Expendables' series.
The League of Peoples, the league of all the entities that started
evolving long before we did has a rule that no non-sentient
may travel between star systems. Anybody who kills is considered
non-sentient. So as quick as they leave their solar system
they die. I think that is the prime directive, but I don't want
to have to read through one of the books to make sure.

By the way, the series is quite a good one.

Bill
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-09-09 13:57:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Packer
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Lucky Starr's "Council Of Science", the Venus Belt, the Federation's
"Prime Directive". Things like that.
Examples?
(How about we exempt Super-Powered Vigilantes)
For "Prime Directive," did you have in mind "With Folded Hands"
by Jack Williamson?
Hmm, I had thought "Federation's Prime Directive" would be a clear
Star Trek reference. As for "With Folded Hands", I don't recall the story
presenting the Humanoids' bubble-wrapping as a good idea. (I suppose *they*
presented it as a good idea, but the story is not on their side).
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Mike Van Pelt
2024-09-10 02:32:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Charles Packer
For "Prime Directive," did you have in mind "With Folded Hands"
by Jack Williamson?
As for "With Folded Hands", I don't recall the story
presenting the Humanoids' bubble-wrapping as a good idea.
It always seemed to me it was a commentary on the first of
Asimov's Three Laws. "... or through inaction allow a human
to come to harm", taken to a horrifying extreme.

The Humanoids were ... very pro-active about that.
--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston
James Nicoll
2024-09-09 14:42:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Lucky Starr's "Council Of Science", the Venus Belt, the Federation's
"Prime Directive". Things like that.
Examples?
(How about we exempt Super-Powered Vigilantes)
The protagonists of Ben Bova's The Return solves women's insatiable
desire to have infinite children by secretly using alien super-
science to install fertility limiters on all women. Each woman can
have two kids and then they are sterile.

Some issues:

It's an egregious violation of personal autonomy.

Women do not in fact want infinite babies.

Some women won't have babies at all and some children will die
before reproducing. Therefore, the population will decline until
humans go extinct.

The last will be a real issue for the interstellar colonies that
head out at the end of the book, none of whom know their population
can only decline.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Mad Hamish
2024-09-10 03:52:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Lucky Starr's "Council Of Science", the Venus Belt, the Federation's
"Prime Directive". Things like that.
Examples?
(How about we exempt Super-Powered Vigilantes)
The protagonists of Ben Bova's The Return solves women's insatiable
desire to have infinite children by secretly using alien super-
science to install fertility limiters on all women. Each woman can
have two kids and then they are sterile.
It's an egregious violation of personal autonomy.
Women do not in fact want infinite babies.
Some women won't have babies at all and some children will die
before reproducing. Therefore, the population will decline until
humans go extinct.
The last will be a real issue for the interstellar colonies that
head out at the end of the book, none of whom know their population
can only decline.
I think you reviewed something where each couple was limited to 1 kid
and the population seemed stable?
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-09-10 04:02:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mad Hamish
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Lucky Starr's "Council Of Science", the Venus Belt, the Federation's
"Prime Directive". Things like that.
Examples?
(How about we exempt Super-Powered Vigilantes)
The protagonists of Ben Bova's The Return solves women's insatiable
desire to have infinite children by secretly using alien super-
science to install fertility limiters on all women. Each woman can
have two kids and then they are sterile.
It's an egregious violation of personal autonomy.
Women do not in fact want infinite babies.
Some women won't have babies at all and some children will die
before reproducing. Therefore, the population will decline until
humans go extinct.
The last will be a real issue for the interstellar colonies that
head out at the end of the book, none of whom know their population
can only decline.
I think you reviewed something where each couple was limited to 1 kid
and the population seemed stable?
If that's addressed to me, yes:

Eye of the Colossus: A Steampunk Space Opera Adventure
(A Holly Drake Job Book 1)
by Nicole Grotepas
https://amzn.to/2HP8TLo

Hands of the Colossus: A Steampunk Space Opera Adventure
(A Holly Drake Job Book 2)
by Nicole Grotepas
https://amzn.to/2WzseDk

Heart of the Colossus: A Steampunk Space Opera Adventure
(A Holly Drake Job Book 3)
by Nicole Grotepas
https://amzn.to/2FLBuPq

When we meet Holly Drake, she is in women's prison after having
killed her abusive husband in self defense. It was a clear cut
case, but due to her husband having been a cop, and corruption in
the police department, Holly went to jail.

...
...
...

I did get a bit of a chuckle out of Grotepas's innumeracy at one point:

"I thought it was for Odeon." Holly glanced at her Druiviin
friend. He seemed to be talking about the club still. From
what Holly understood, Druiviin couples only had one child
-- instilling into their single offspring all of the things
their line cared for. It was said that their race on Yaso
had reached a balanced ecological state: resources weren't
over-consumed and by only having one child, they prevented
a disastrous imbalance. But when a portion of their population
left for the 6-moon region, the ones left behind began to
have two children, to replace those who'd left. The immigrants
to the 6-moons only had one child, typically.

I'm not sure what she was thinking there!
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Scott Dorsey
2024-09-09 18:30:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Lucky Starr's "Council Of Science", the Venus Belt, the Federation's
"Prime Directive". Things like that.
Examples?
When I watched SF as a kid, everybody had some sort of pocket communicating
device. Kirk had a communicator, Napoleon Solo had a fountain pen, and
even Maxwell Smart had a shoephone.

But not ONCE did any of them ever get a call about their car warranty.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
James Nicoll
2024-09-09 19:40:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Lucky Starr's "Council Of Science", the Venus Belt, the Federation's
"Prime Directive". Things like that.
Examples?
When I watched SF as a kid, everybody had some sort of pocket communicating
device. Kirk had a communicator, Napoleon Solo had a fountain pen, and
even Maxwell Smart had a shoephone.
But not ONCE did any of them ever get a call about their car warranty.
I read a review of NBC's Search (1972 to 1973) in which the reviewer
was greatly distracted by the agents' scanners. These were communication
and information gathering devices compact enough to fit into a tie-
clip or a ring jewel. They seemed to have infinite range and nothing
appeared to block the signal. The reviewer speculated that perhaps
they used phased neutrinos.

Huh. Only 23 episodes. It felt like it ran longer than a year.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Garrett Wollman
2024-09-09 19:44:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
I read a review of NBC's Search (1972 to 1973) in which the reviewer
was greatly distracted by the agents' scanners. These were communication
and information gathering devices compact enough to fit into a tie-
clip or a ring jewel. They seemed to have infinite range and nothing
appeared to block the signal. The reviewer speculated that perhaps
they used phased neutrinos.
Huh. Only 23 episodes. It felt like it ran longer than a year.
Had it been British, that would be four years' worth.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Paul S Person
2024-09-10 16:08:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Lucky Starr's "Council Of Science", the Venus Belt, the Federation's
"Prime Directive". Things like that.
Examples?
When I watched SF as a kid, everybody had some sort of pocket communicating
device. Kirk had a communicator, Napoleon Solo had a fountain pen, and
even Maxwell Smart had a shoephone.
But not ONCE did any of them ever get a call about their car warranty.
I read a review of NBC's Search (1972 to 1973) in which the reviewer
was greatly distracted by the agents' scanners. These were communication
and information gathering devices compact enough to fit into a tie-
clip or a ring jewel. They seemed to have infinite range and nothing
appeared to block the signal. The reviewer speculated that perhaps
they used phased neutrinos.
Huh. Only 23 episodes. It felt like it ran longer than a year.
That's not, generally, a good sign.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"
James Nicoll
2024-09-10 17:34:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Lucky Starr's "Council Of Science", the Venus Belt, the Federation's
"Prime Directive". Things like that.
Examples?
When I watched SF as a kid, everybody had some sort of pocket communicating
device. Kirk had a communicator, Napoleon Solo had a fountain pen, and
even Maxwell Smart had a shoephone.
But not ONCE did any of them ever get a call about their car warranty.
I read a review of NBC's Search (1972 to 1973) in which the reviewer
was greatly distracted by the agents' scanners. These were communication
and information gathering devices compact enough to fit into a tie-
clip or a ring jewel. They seemed to have infinite range and nothing
appeared to block the signal. The reviewer speculated that perhaps
they used phased neutrinos.
Huh. Only 23 episodes. It felt like it ran longer than a year.
That's not, generally, a good sign.
I have fond memories that I am sure would not be bitterly betrayed if
I found an episode or two to watch. After all, Columbo is standing
up. OK, there is the issue I've able to spot the killer in every
episode so far.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Scott Lurndal
2024-09-10 18:40:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
Post by James Nicoll
I read a review of NBC's Search (1972 to 1973) in which the reviewer
was greatly distracted by the agents' scanners. These were communication
and information gathering devices compact enough to fit into a tie-
clip or a ring jewel. They seemed to have infinite range and nothing
appeared to block the signal. The reviewer speculated that perhaps
they used phased neutrinos.
Huh. Only 23 episodes. It felt like it ran longer than a year.
That's not, generally, a good sign.
I have fond memories that I am sure would not be bitterly betrayed if
I found an episode or two to watch. After all, Columbo is standing
up. OK, there is the issue I've able to spot the killer in every
episode so far.
The credits for all eps are up on youtube.

Box sets are available on Amazon.

The music sure sounded familier, but I don't remember the show.
Paul S Person
2024-09-11 15:23:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Lucky Starr's "Council Of Science", the Venus Belt, the Federation's
"Prime Directive". Things like that.
Examples?
When I watched SF as a kid, everybody had some sort of pocket communicating
device. Kirk had a communicator, Napoleon Solo had a fountain pen, and
even Maxwell Smart had a shoephone.
But not ONCE did any of them ever get a call about their car warranty.
I read a review of NBC's Search (1972 to 1973) in which the reviewer
was greatly distracted by the agents' scanners. These were communication
and information gathering devices compact enough to fit into a tie-
clip or a ring jewel. They seemed to have infinite range and nothing
appeared to block the signal. The reviewer speculated that perhaps
they used phased neutrinos.
Huh. Only 23 episodes. It felt like it ran longer than a year.
That's not, generally, a good sign.
I have fond memories that I am sure would not be bitterly betrayed if
I found an episode or two to watch. After all, Columbo is standing
up. OK, there is the issue I've able to spot the killer in every
episode so far.
It's been a long time, but my memory suggests that some/most/all
episodes were more about how Columbo figured it out.

IOW, the idea was that we would watch Columbo solve a problem that we
already knew the solution to (ie, whodunit). This is not the same as a
classic mystery, where the audience is given the same clues as the
investigator and so may be able to solve the case on its own.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-09-11 15:34:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Lucky Starr's "Council Of Science", the Venus Belt, the Federation's
"Prime Directive". Things like that.
Examples?
When I watched SF as a kid, everybody had some sort of pocket communicating
device. Kirk had a communicator, Napoleon Solo had a fountain pen, and
even Maxwell Smart had a shoephone.
But not ONCE did any of them ever get a call about their car warranty.
I read a review of NBC's Search (1972 to 1973) in which the reviewer
was greatly distracted by the agents' scanners. These were communication
and information gathering devices compact enough to fit into a tie-
clip or a ring jewel. They seemed to have infinite range and nothing
appeared to block the signal. The reviewer speculated that perhaps
they used phased neutrinos.
Huh. Only 23 episodes. It felt like it ran longer than a year.
That's not, generally, a good sign.
I have fond memories that I am sure would not be bitterly betrayed if
I found an episode or two to watch. After all, Columbo is standing
up. OK, there is the issue I've able to spot the killer in every
episode so far.
It's been a long time, but my memory suggests that some/most/all
episodes were more about how Columbo figured it out.
IOW, the idea was that we would watch Columbo solve a problem that we
already knew the solution to (ie, whodunit). This is not the same as a
classic mystery, where the audience is given the same clues as the
investigator and so may be able to solve the case on its own.
Whoosh!

Seems like about time for a Columbo reboot -- Falk has been gone long
enough to make it a respectful interval...
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Paul S Person
2024-09-12 15:39:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Paul S Person
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Lucky Starr's "Council Of Science", the Venus Belt, the Federation's
"Prime Directive". Things like that.
Examples?
When I watched SF as a kid, everybody had some sort of pocket communicating
device. Kirk had a communicator, Napoleon Solo had a fountain pen, and
even Maxwell Smart had a shoephone.
But not ONCE did any of them ever get a call about their car warranty.
I read a review of NBC's Search (1972 to 1973) in which the reviewer
was greatly distracted by the agents' scanners. These were communication
and information gathering devices compact enough to fit into a tie-
clip or a ring jewel. They seemed to have infinite range and nothing
appeared to block the signal. The reviewer speculated that perhaps
they used phased neutrinos.
Huh. Only 23 episodes. It felt like it ran longer than a year.
That's not, generally, a good sign.
I have fond memories that I am sure would not be bitterly betrayed if
I found an episode or two to watch. After all, Columbo is standing
up. OK, there is the issue I've able to spot the killer in every
episode so far.
It's been a long time, but my memory suggests that some/most/all
episodes were more about how Columbo figured it out.
IOW, the idea was that we would watch Columbo solve a problem that we
already knew the solution to (ie, whodunit). This is not the same as a
classic mystery, where the audience is given the same clues as the
investigator and so may be able to solve the case on its own.
Whoosh!
Seems like about time for a Columbo reboot -- Falk has been gone long
enough to make it a respectful interval...
IIRC, there were at least two others, one of them based on /Coogan's
Bluff/. They rotated as "Movie of the Week" or "Monday Movie" or
something like that. This justified the expense of three production
companies and gave each one 3 weeks in which to film (or
finalize/advertise if already in the can from off-season) the next
episode.

I may be confusing two different sets of three, BTW. It has been a
long long time.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"
quadibloc
2024-09-09 19:51:55 UTC
Permalink
I remember a novel titled L5. I thought the author was Mack Reynolds,
but apparently not; the author may have had a somewhat similar sounding
name.
The L5 colonies had a rule; no one could go there whose IQ was below a
certain limit, set at an above-average level. *And anyone born there who
was below that level would be sent to Earth.*
The central plot development was that another group was planning to
start up their own L5 colonies; it was a group of black people, with the
intent of providing L5 space for blacks. The question was: should the
existing L5 colonies co-operate with this project or not. It was
resolved in favor of cooperating when it was found the other group would
also follow the same high-IQ policy.
Why is it a bad idea?
Well, we know that when geniuses marry, their children experience what
is known as "regression o the mean". Essentially, there are numerous
different alleles which can cause genius-level intelligence, and so if
the members of a couple are geniuses from different genetic causes,
their higher intelligence won't breed true.
And it costs an awful lot of money to launch people into space.
So this space colony would basically have to import all its people from
Earth, having almost no ability to maintain its own population by
natural increase.
Not a great plan from a bunch of geniuses.

John Savard
Mad Hamish
2024-09-10 03:42:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by quadibloc
I remember a novel titled L5. I thought the author was Mack Reynolds,
but apparently not; the author may have had a somewhat similar sounding
name.
The L5 colonies had a rule; no one could go there whose IQ was below a
certain limit, set at an above-average level. *And anyone born there who
was below that level would be sent to Earth.*
The central plot development was that another group was planning to
start up their own L5 colonies; it was a group of black people, with the
intent of providing L5 space for blacks. The question was: should the
existing L5 colonies co-operate with this project or not. It was
resolved in favor of cooperating when it was found the other group would
also follow the same high-IQ policy.
Why is it a bad idea?
Well, we know that when geniuses marry, their children experience what
is known as "regression o the mean". Essentially, there are numerous
different alleles which can cause genius-level intelligence, and so if
the members of a couple are geniuses from different genetic causes,
their higher intelligence won't breed true.
And it costs an awful lot of money to launch people into space.
So this space colony would basically have to import all its people from
Earth, having almost no ability to maintain its own population by
natural increase.
Not a great plan from a bunch of geniuses.
a) that's your objection to the policy?
b) IQ is significantly affected by environment
quadibloc
2024-09-10 23:56:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mad Hamish
a) that's your objection to the policy?
Of course it would be possible to say a lot of things about L5 colonists
who
established a rule that their colonies were for people with
significantly
above-average IQs only.

One could call it elitist, ableist, or bigoted. And throw in eugenics
for good
measure.

However, it wasn't necessary to wade into politics. Or even the nature
vs nurture
debate.

It's well known that the genetic component of intelligence doesn't
"breed true", for
the reason I've noted - a lot of different genes affect intelligence. So
the idea of
sending back everyone who turns out to not meet the threshold for entry
to the space
colony... is wildly impractical.

This isn't "politics I disagree with", it's "bad science", which is an
_objective_
flaw. Sure, I do argue politics, but I also try to avoid it when I don't
have to.

However, to answer your question...

That the people in charge of the L5 colonies in the novel want to build
a new and
better world, and think that peopling it with those who are above
average in
intelligence is a reasonable part of doing so... does _not_ cause me to
have a
knee-jerk reaction that this is EEEVIL.

So to some extent, your suspicions of me are valid.

Human stupidity is indeed one of the big causes of the problems we have
here on Earth.
However, the kind of stupidity that causes problems... doesn't correlate
well with IQ.
Fanatical nationalism, religion, or ideology can corrupt the thinking of
otherwise
quite intelligent people.

John Savard
John Savard
Cryptoengineer
2024-09-12 00:16:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by quadibloc
I remember a novel titled L5. I thought the author was Mack Reynolds,
but apparently not; the author may have had a somewhat similar sounding
name.
The L5 colonies had a rule; no one could go there whose IQ was below a
certain limit, set at an above-average level. *And anyone born there who
was below that level would be sent to Earth.*
The central plot development was that another group was planning to
start up their own L5 colonies; it was a group of black people, with the
intent of providing L5 space for blacks. The question was: should the
existing L5 colonies co-operate with this project or not. It was
resolved in favor of cooperating when it was found the other group would
also follow the same high-IQ policy.
Why is it a bad idea?
Well, we know that when geniuses marry, their children experience what
is known as "regression o the mean". Essentially, there are numerous
different alleles which can cause genius-level intelligence, and so if
the members of a couple are geniuses from different genetic causes,
their higher intelligence won't breed true.
And it costs an awful lot of money to launch people into space.
So this space colony would basically have to import all its people from
Earth, having almost no ability to maintain its own population by
natural increase.
Not a great plan from a bunch of geniuses.
John Savard
I think you're misunderstanding 'regression to the mean'.

Yes, if two 150 IQ people have kids, its more likely that they're
intelligence will be below 150 than above.

But its still likely to be above 100, which is the whole population
mean. The term should really be 'regression *toward* the mean'.

After all, if good traits can't accumulate, natural selection
couldn't produce more intelligent creatures (like us) from less
intelligent ones (homo habilis, for example).

Sending the dumber kids back to Earth is simply a replacement for
natural selection culling the stupid before they breed.

pt
The Horny Goat
2024-09-18 16:21:41 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11 Sep 2024 20:16:08 -0400, Cryptoengineer
Post by Cryptoengineer
I think you're misunderstanding 'regression to the mean'.
Yes, if two 150 IQ people have kids, its more likely that they're
intelligence will be below 150 than above.
But its still likely to be above 100, which is the whole population
mean. The term should really be 'regression *toward* the mean'.
Fair enough (and I've seen IQ test scores for my father in high school
vs myself) but I'm personally convinced that intelligence test scores
hinge at least as much on how one was raised as anything inherited
from your parents.

My father grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere whereas my mother
(who was the daughter of a commercial fisherman - not known as a
source of brilliance as opposed to "canniness") regularly took my
brother and I to the library, parks, other interesting places in our
city. I was a "life-long reader" from a very early age and when tested
had the scores to prove it.

In other words I got a lot of intellectual stimulation growing up that
my father didn't. In addition I met a LOT of people when my maternal
grandfather ran (unsuccessfully) twice for the Canadian Parliament in
my pre-teen years. Built the (Revell?) plastic models and taught to
play chess by my grandfather. Plus lots of 'field trips' in school and
in Scouts.

Which isn't a guarantee of anything but certainly a more
intellectually stimulating experience than growing up on an isolated
farm.
Post by Cryptoengineer
After all, if good traits can't accumulate, natural selection
couldn't produce more intelligent creatures (like us) from less
intelligent ones (homo habilis, for example).
Sending the dumber kids back to Earth is simply a replacement for
natural selection culling the stupid before they breed.
Cryptoengineer
2024-09-18 16:50:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 11 Sep 2024 20:16:08 -0400, Cryptoengineer
Post by Cryptoengineer
I think you're misunderstanding 'regression to the mean'.
Yes, if two 150 IQ people have kids, its more likely that they're
intelligence will be below 150 than above.
But its still likely to be above 100, which is the whole population
mean. The term should really be 'regression *toward* the mean'.
Fair enough (and I've seen IQ test scores for my father in high school
vs myself) but I'm personally convinced that intelligence test scores
hinge at least as much on how one was raised as anything inherited
from your parents.
My father grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere whereas my mother
(who was the daughter of a commercial fisherman - not known as a
source of brilliance as opposed to "canniness") regularly took my
brother and I to the library, parks, other interesting places in our
city. I was a "life-long reader" from a very early age and when tested
had the scores to prove it.
In other words I got a lot of intellectual stimulation growing up that
my father didn't. In addition I met a LOT of people when my maternal
grandfather ran (unsuccessfully) twice for the Canadian Parliament in
my pre-teen years. Built the (Revell?) plastic models and taught to
play chess by my grandfather. Plus lots of 'field trips' in school and
in Scouts.
Which isn't a guarantee of anything but certainly a more
intellectually stimulating experience than growing up on an isolated
farm.
Post by Cryptoengineer
After all, if good traits can't accumulate, natural selection
couldn't produce more intelligent creatures (like us) from less
intelligent ones (homo habilis, for example).
Sending the dumber kids back to Earth is simply a replacement for
natural selection culling the stupid before they breed.
Intellectual development any given person is absolutely a combination
of Nature and Nurture - and the differences we see around us are, I
suspect, due more the latter than the former.

However, intelligence absolutely has a genetic factor, else it could
not have evolved. You don't have twice the brain matter of Lucy because
of how you were brought up.

pt
The Horny Goat
2024-09-20 07:20:00 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 18 Sep 2024 12:50:18 -0400, Cryptoengineer
Post by Cryptoengineer
Intellectual development any given person is absolutely a combination
of Nature and Nurture - and the differences we see around us are, I
suspect, due more the latter than the former.
However, intelligence absolutely has a genetic factor, else it could
not have evolved. You don't have twice the brain matter of Lucy because
of how you were brought up.
I completely agree with you.

My mother's paternal grandfather commanded a ship in the Royal Navy in
WW1 (In peace time he had first been a yacht captain then became a
commercial fishing captain before WW1 and afterwards)

His son, my maternal grandfather was first a commercial fisherman who
later became a cannery owner and after that ran twice (unsuccessfully)
for the Canadian parliament. My brother and I have teased each other
for years as to which of us he taught more to - he learned the
saxophone and soccer, I was taught chess. (I'm no master but have been
on the national executive of the Chess Federation of Canada and won an
international award)
Mom was a high school teacher while raising the two of us.
My 3 children were all tested as 'gifted' - my eldest did combined
honors history and Russian, my second became a commercial artist, my
youngest is an electrical engineer - you would be correct in thinking
their talents lie is very different directions. His daughter is only
two but is well ahead of herself in her vocabulary so we're hopeful :)

I've read 2 or 3 books a week (some reasonably thick) including a lot
of science fiction pretty much since my early teens (not counting
during business school) and have been with computers of some sort or
another for 40+ years - my kids were very early internet adopters...

Doesn't make me better than anybody else but the above speaks to a
pro-education home background. I would suspect that to be the norm for
anyone who is enough of an SF fan to hang around somewhere like here.
Tony Nance
2024-09-12 00:17:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Lucky Starr's "Council Of Science", the Venus Belt, the Federation's
"Prime Directive". Things like that.
Examples?
(How about we exempt Super-Powered Vigilantes)
This reminds me of an example I have mentioned here before, 1-2 years
ago, but it's a rather large spoiler for the work in question (The Stars
Asunder by Doyle & MacDonald).


Spoiler for The Stars Asunder below,
Tony


Spoiler for the stupidest first-contact strategy I’ve ever seen,
courtesy of Doyle & MacDonald in The Stars Asunder…


here there be spoilers...



last spoiler space for 50 miles...



A ship belonging to Civilization “A”, which I charitably won’t refer
to as The Civilization Of Tunnel-Visioned Militaristic Idiots, has
occasion to make first contact with a ship from Civilization “B”.

They sincerely believe — as in, it is played straight in the book that
these people think this will be a successful way to establish relations
to the mutual benefit of both civilizations — it will go best if they
grapple/tether the other ship, make a hole in their hull, and send an
armed boarding party through.
Paul S Person
2024-09-12 15:42:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Nance
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Lucky Starr's "Council Of Science", the Venus Belt, the Federation's
"Prime Directive". Things like that.
Examples?
(How about we exempt Super-Powered Vigilantes)
This reminds me of an example I have mentioned here before, 1-2 years
ago, but it's a rather large spoiler for the work in question (The Stars
Asunder by Doyle & MacDonald).
Spoiler for The Stars Asunder below,
Tony
Spoiler for the stupidest first-contact strategy I’ve ever seen,
courtesy of Doyle & MacDonald in The Stars Asunder…
here there be spoilers...
last spoiler space for 50 miles...
A ship belonging to Civilization “A”, which I charitably won’t refer
to as The Civilization Of Tunnel-Visioned Militaristic Idiots, has
occasion to make first contact with a ship from Civilization “B”.
They sincerely believe — as in, it is played straight in the book that
these people think this will be a successful way to establish relations
to the mutual benefit of both civilizations — it will go best if they
grapple/tether the other ship, make a hole in their hull, and send an
armed boarding party through.
So they're imperialists/colonialists.

Not uncommon at all.

So, what else is new?
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"
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