Discussion:
RI October 2024
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Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-11-17 04:11:16 UTC
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Permalink
Here we are again, possibly less late than usual with books from October.
As is traditional (and possibly required): The links below are Amazon
affiliate ones which could potentially earn me something should you
choose to buy through one.

====

Acts of War: A World War II Alternative History
(The Usurper's War Book 1)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3UAZsmc

Collisions of the Damned: The Defense of the Dutch East Indies
(The Usurper's War Book 2)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3AryUx3

Here's the first two books of what I believe is to be an alt-hist
WWII trilogy.

The jumping off point for this universe is that the British take
out Hitler in a bombing raid on Berlin. They had no idea where he
was -- it was just one of those lucky accidents of war. Or, in
this case unlucky accidents of war.

Unlucky because taking out Hitler proved a very good thing for the
Germans. Himmler came in after sidelining Goering (possibly fatally,
I don't quite recall), and said to the Brits basically: Look Hitler
was really a loose cannon and things got out of hand. What's done
is done, and we're not giving back anything our boys died for, but
is there really any reason we still need to be at war?

Churchill said 'yes', but was eventually turfed out in favor of
Eden who turned out to be what some people have always suspected
and made peace. When the Brits stood down and Himmler felt secure
enough, he cranked things up again, this time with gas and Eden
essentially went Vichy. The king was killed in a RN sea battle on
the way to the New World and the Duke of Windsor also proved himself
to be what many suspected and happily re-took the throne, or so
some would say, some most emphatically not to include the young
Queen.

For the US, the situation in Europe headed off the immediate crisis
with the Japanese who had their hands full as a Russia, not currently
facing German armies, sent Zhukov to drive them out of China (which
immediately, if not unexpectedly, fell into warlordry). However
the Japanese still needed the petroleum of the Dutch East Indies
and were just biding their time for an attack there, and on the US.

So anyway, that's a long winded setup. The actual action of these
books is mainly centered on a dysfunctional Alabama family whose
sons are all in the military, and whose daughter has escaped an
unsuitable marriage by fleeing to Pearl Harbor. There are also
story-lines centering on an American ex-pat who has been flying for
a Polish resistance squadron, and who is consequently in bad odor
at home as a mercenary (the US being at peace with both Germany &
Japan as the series starts), a battle cruiser first officer in the
US Asiatic fleet, various Japanese notables and minor characters
who come and go.

It's a very frustrating series in some ways. In particular, every
conversation seems fraught, even between people who are supposed
to be friends, or even lovers. It never is about shooting the
breeze, or imparting facts -- every conversation seems to have
winners and losers, and that's among friends. Conversations between
officers and subordinates seem to be all based on how much each
thinks the other to be an SOB and wants them dead.

I'm not sure how much of the family dysfunction I mentioned we are
supposed to find funny, but some parts don't work at all for me.
For instance, the matriarch knows why her WWI vet husband has to
leave the house whenever she cooks pork chops, but does it anyway,
and the brothers tend to commit actual mayhem to protect their
sister from imaginary dangers.

It's also clearly an indie effort (I believe I picked it up from one
of Hoyt's weekly indie-boost posts), and the second book in particular
is notably much more poorly edited than the first.

That all said, it's an interesting and sometimes compelling series,
especially the bloody and nerve-wracking sea battles, and the second
book ends with a general realization on the US side that we are
losing this thing. I do want to see how it turns out, so I
believe I will pick up the third book, warts & all.

Task Force Hammer (Expeditionary Force Book 17)
by Craig Alanson
https://amzn.to/3CduhqZ

These should be the salad days. After making Terra a first class
power in the previously bipolar galactic system, and having seen
off the threat of the return of the Elders, General Joe Gordon and
his charge/friend/burden the renegade Elder AI Skippy should be
resting on their laurels. Unfortunately, the menace which they
believed to be another Elder AI and thought they had seen off turned
out to be an Outsider -- the threat from beyond the galaxy which
terrified the Elders so much that they 'ascended' out of our realm.
Furthermore, to, apparently, see it off, Joe had unleashed Elder
weapons which threw the galactic MAD doctrine into a cocked hat in
the same way a country using nukes would in our current situation.

Now, as is traditional in these books, the only hope is to get a
mcguffin from one of the most highly defended systems of the Awful
Kitties, something we will need the Spiders help to do but which is
still an apparently impossible task, the only feasible approach to
which will require Joe to betray his oldest friends...

I was a bit worried in these books when Joe & Skippy apparently
took out the Big Bad(s) that there would be nowhere to go, but
Alanson has continued to provide interesting challenges for the
Merry Band of Pirates, and Joe is actually starting to act like a
general. That said, there is definitely some filler here around
characters from "The Mavericks" whom Alanson is trying to keep
viable in the setting even when they don't quite fit in. In
particular the hijinks with Jates & Nerf are very forced. Joe's
wife is also sidelined for this book, and her subplot is is really
off the charts bad as well.

Still on the plus side for me though, and I will definitely pick
up the next book (which will, quickly I hope, resolve a major
cliffhanger).
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Robert Woodward
2024-11-17 05:53:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Here we are again, possibly less late than usual with books from October.
As is traditional (and possibly required): The links below are Amazon
affiliate ones which could potentially earn me something should you
choose to buy through one.
====
Acts of War: A World War II Alternative History
(The Usurper's War Book 1)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3UAZsmc
Collisions of the Damned: The Defense of the Dutch East Indies
(The Usurper's War Book 2)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3AryUx3
Here's the first two books of what I believe is to be an alt-hist
WWII trilogy.
The jumping off point for this universe is that the British take
out Hitler in a bombing raid on Berlin. They had no idea where he
was -- it was just one of those lucky accidents of war. Or, in
this case unlucky accidents of war.
<SNIP>
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
So anyway, that's a long winded setup. The actual action of these
books is mainly centered on a dysfunctional Alabama family whose
sons are all in the military, and whose daughter has escaped an
unsuitable marriage by fleeing to Pearl Harbor. There are also
story-lines centering on an American ex-pat who has been flying for
a Polish resistance squadron, and who is consequently in bad odor
at home as a mercenary (the US being at peace with both Germany &
Japan as the series starts), a battle cruiser first officer in the
US Asiatic fleet, various Japanese notables and minor characters
who come and go.
"battle cruiser first officer in the US Asiatic fleet"?!

The US Navy did not have battle cruisers (the "Lexington" and "Saratoga"
would had been, but that class was cancelled by the Washington Naval
Treaty and those 2 ships were converted in Aircraft carriers). In fact,
the biggest ship in the US Asiatic fleet in 1941 was the USS Houston
(9195 tons displacement) which was classified as a heavy cruiser solely
because of 8 inch gun main batteries (it was originally classified as a
light cruise)
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Bobbie Sellers
2024-11-17 06:09:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Here we are again, possibly less late than usual with books from October.
As is traditional (and possibly required): The links below are Amazon
affiliate ones which could potentially earn me something should you
choose to buy through one.
====
Acts of War: A World War II Alternative History
(The Usurper's War Book 1)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3UAZsmc
Collisions of the Damned: The Defense of the Dutch East Indies
(The Usurper's War Book 2)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3AryUx3
Here's the first two books of what I believe is to be an alt-hist
WWII trilogy.
The jumping off point for this universe is that the British take
out Hitler in a bombing raid on Berlin. They had no idea where he
was -- it was just one of those lucky accidents of war. Or, in
this case unlucky accidents of war.
<SNIP>
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
So anyway, that's a long winded setup. The actual action of these
books is mainly centered on a dysfunctional Alabama family whose
sons are all in the military, and whose daughter has escaped an
unsuitable marriage by fleeing to Pearl Harbor. There are also
story-lines centering on an American ex-pat who has been flying for
a Polish resistance squadron, and who is consequently in bad odor
at home as a mercenary (the US being at peace with both Germany &
Japan as the series starts), a battle cruiser first officer in the
US Asiatic fleet, various Japanese notables and minor characters
who come and go.
"battle cruiser first officer in the US Asiatic fleet"?!
The US Navy did not have battle cruisers (the "Lexington" and "Saratoga"
would had been, but that class was cancelled by the Washington Naval
Treaty and those 2 ships were converted in Aircraft carriers). In fact,
the biggest ship in the US Asiatic fleet in 1941 was the USS Houston
(9195 tons displacement) which was classified as a heavy cruiser solely
because of 8 inch gun main batteries (it was originally classified as a
light cruise)
Did you forget the Alternate History?

Personally it sounds less well thought out than "Destroyer Men".
But of course that is travel to an alternate Earth where Sauroid Grik
threaten all other intelligent life including the furry natives who
live on large ships. <https://www.taylorandersonauthor.com>

bliss
Robert Woodward
2024-11-18 05:44:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bobbie Sellers
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Here we are again, possibly less late than usual with books from October.
As is traditional (and possibly required): The links below are Amazon
affiliate ones which could potentially earn me something should you
choose to buy through one.
====
Acts of War: A World War II Alternative History
(The Usurper's War Book 1)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3UAZsmc
Collisions of the Damned: The Defense of the Dutch East Indies
(The Usurper's War Book 2)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3AryUx3
Here's the first two books of what I believe is to be an alt-hist
WWII trilogy.
The jumping off point for this universe is that the British take
out Hitler in a bombing raid on Berlin. They had no idea where he
was -- it was just one of those lucky accidents of war. Or, in
this case unlucky accidents of war.
<SNIP>
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
So anyway, that's a long winded setup. The actual action of these
books is mainly centered on a dysfunctional Alabama family whose
sons are all in the military, and whose daughter has escaped an
unsuitable marriage by fleeing to Pearl Harbor. There are also
story-lines centering on an American ex-pat who has been flying for
a Polish resistance squadron, and who is consequently in bad odor
at home as a mercenary (the US being at peace with both Germany &
Japan as the series starts), a battle cruiser first officer in the
US Asiatic fleet, various Japanese notables and minor characters
who come and go.
"battle cruiser first officer in the US Asiatic fleet"?!
The US Navy did not have battle cruisers (the "Lexington" and "Saratoga"
would had been, but that class was cancelled by the Washington Naval
Treaty and those 2 ships were converted in Aircraft carriers). In fact,
the biggest ship in the US Asiatic fleet in 1941 was the USS Houston
(9195 tons displacement) which was classified as a heavy cruiser solely
because of 8 inch gun main batteries (it was originally classified as a
light cruise)
Did you forget the Alternate History?
The given Point of Departure was almost 2 decades after the Washington
Naval Treaty. Assuming that the Nazi Party will still take over Germany
is bad form if there was no Washington Naval Treaty is lazy plotting.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Chris Buckley
2024-11-18 11:53:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
...
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Bobbie Sellers
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
So anyway, that's a long winded setup. The actual action of these
books is mainly centered on a dysfunctional Alabama family whose
sons are all in the military, and whose daughter has escaped an
unsuitable marriage by fleeing to Pearl Harbor. There are also
story-lines centering on an American ex-pat who has been flying for
a Polish resistance squadron, and who is consequently in bad odor
at home as a mercenary (the US being at peace with both Germany &
Japan as the series starts), a battle cruiser first officer in the
US Asiatic fleet, various Japanese notables and minor characters
who come and go.
"battle cruiser first officer in the US Asiatic fleet"?!
The US Navy did not have battle cruisers (the "Lexington" and "Saratoga"
would had been, but that class was cancelled by the Washington Naval
Treaty and those 2 ships were converted in Aircraft carriers). In fact,
the biggest ship in the US Asiatic fleet in 1941 was the USS Houston
(9195 tons displacement) which was classified as a heavy cruiser solely
because of 8 inch gun main batteries (it was originally classified as a
light cruise)
Did you forget the Alternate History?
The given Point of Departure was almost 2 decades after the Washington
Naval Treaty. Assuming that the Nazi Party will still take over Germany
is bad form if there was no Washington Naval Treaty is lazy plotting.
The Washington Naval Treaty is certainly relevant, in that it severely
limited the big ships Japan, US, and most of Europe could have and
build (the first modern big disarmament treaty), but it had very
little effect on the Nazi Party taking over Germany - it did not have
limitations on German power.

All the German limitations and enormous burden on Germany that
certainly contributed to the rise of the Nazis and WWII were laid out
earlier in the Treaty of Versailles.

(I haven't read the books so may be misinterpreting the Alternate World
here in my quibble.)

Chris
Bobbie Sellers
2024-11-17 06:09:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Here we are again, possibly less late than usual with books from October.
As is traditional (and possibly required): The links below are Amazon
affiliate ones which could potentially earn me something should you
choose to buy through one.
====
Acts of War: A World War II Alternative History
(The Usurper's War Book 1)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3UAZsmc
Collisions of the Damned: The Defense of the Dutch East Indies
(The Usurper's War Book 2)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3AryUx3
Here's the first two books of what I believe is to be an alt-hist
WWII trilogy.
The jumping off point for this universe is that the British take
out Hitler in a bombing raid on Berlin. They had no idea where he
was -- it was just one of those lucky accidents of war. Or, in
this case unlucky accidents of war.
<SNIP>
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
So anyway, that's a long winded setup. The actual action of these
books is mainly centered on a dysfunctional Alabama family whose
sons are all in the military, and whose daughter has escaped an
unsuitable marriage by fleeing to Pearl Harbor. There are also
story-lines centering on an American ex-pat who has been flying for
a Polish resistance squadron, and who is consequently in bad odor
at home as a mercenary (the US being at peace with both Germany &
Japan as the series starts), a battle cruiser first officer in the
US Asiatic fleet, various Japanese notables and minor characters
who come and go.
"battle cruiser first officer in the US Asiatic fleet"?!
The US Navy did not have battle cruisers (the "Lexington" and "Saratoga"
would had been, but that class was cancelled by the Washington Naval
Treaty and those 2 ships were converted in Aircraft carriers). In fact,
the biggest ship in the US Asiatic fleet in 1941 was the USS Houston
(9195 tons displacement) which was classified as a heavy cruiser solely
because of 8 inch gun main batteries (it was originally classified as a
light cruise)
Did you forget the Alternate History?

Personally it sounds less well thought out than "Destroyer Men".
But of course that is travel to an alternate Earth where Sauroid Grik
threaten all other intelligent life including the furry natives who
live on large ships. <https://www.taylorandersonauthor.com>

bliss
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-11-17 06:34:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Here we are again, possibly less late than usual with books from October.
As is traditional (and possibly required): The links below are Amazon
affiliate ones which could potentially earn me something should you
choose to buy through one.
====
Acts of War: A World War II Alternative History
(The Usurper's War Book 1)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3UAZsmc
Collisions of the Damned: The Defense of the Dutch East Indies
(The Usurper's War Book 2)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3AryUx3
Here's the first two books of what I believe is to be an alt-hist
WWII trilogy.
The jumping off point for this universe is that the British take
out Hitler in a bombing raid on Berlin. They had no idea where he
was -- it was just one of those lucky accidents of war. Or, in
this case unlucky accidents of war.
<SNIP>
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
So anyway, that's a long winded setup. The actual action of these
books is mainly centered on a dysfunctional Alabama family whose
sons are all in the military, and whose daughter has escaped an
unsuitable marriage by fleeing to Pearl Harbor. There are also
story-lines centering on an American ex-pat who has been flying for
a Polish resistance squadron, and who is consequently in bad odor
at home as a mercenary (the US being at peace with both Germany &
Japan as the series starts), a battle cruiser first officer in the
US Asiatic fleet, various Japanese notables and minor characters
who come and go.
"battle cruiser first officer in the US Asiatic fleet"?!
The US Navy did not have battle cruisers (the "Lexington" and "Saratoga"
would had been, but that class was cancelled by the Washington Naval
Treaty and those 2 ships were converted in Aircraft carriers). In fact,
the biggest ship in the US Asiatic fleet in 1941 was the USS Houston
(9195 tons displacement) which was classified as a heavy cruiser solely
because of 8 inch gun main batteries (it was originally classified as a
light cruise)
It was the USS Houston, and I didn't go back to check exactly what type
of ship it was (or even the name). Our viewpoint there is
"Commander Jacob Morton, the Houston's executive officer", who I assume
is fictional.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Tony Nance
2024-11-17 13:20:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Here we are again, possibly less late than usual with books from October.
As is traditional (and possibly required): The links below are Amazon
affiliate ones which could potentially earn me something should you
choose to buy through one.
====
Acts of War: A World War II Alternative History
(The Usurper's War Book 1)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3UAZsmc
Collisions of the Damned: The Defense of the Dutch East Indies
(The Usurper's War Book 2)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3AryUx3
Here's the first two books of what I believe is to be an alt-hist
WWII trilogy.
The jumping off point for this universe is that the British take
out Hitler in a bombing raid on Berlin. They had no idea where he
was -- it was just one of those lucky accidents of war. Or, in
this case unlucky accidents of war.
<SNIP>
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
So anyway, that's a long winded setup. The actual action of these
books is mainly centered on a dysfunctional Alabama family whose
sons are all in the military, and whose daughter has escaped an
unsuitable marriage by fleeing to Pearl Harbor. There are also
story-lines centering on an American ex-pat who has been flying for
a Polish resistance squadron, and who is consequently in bad odor
at home as a mercenary (the US being at peace with both Germany &
Japan as the series starts), a battle cruiser first officer in the
US Asiatic fleet, various Japanese notables and minor characters
who come and go.
"battle cruiser first officer in the US Asiatic fleet"?!
The US Navy did not have battle cruisers (the "Lexington" and "Saratoga"
would had been, but that class was cancelled by the Washington Naval
Treaty and those 2 ships were converted in Aircraft carriers). In fact,
the biggest ship in the US Asiatic fleet in 1941 was the USS Houston
(9195 tons displacement) which was classified as a heavy cruiser solely
because of 8 inch gun main batteries (it was originally classified as a
light cruise)
It was the USS Houston, and I didn't go back to check exactly what type
of ship it was (or even the name). Our viewpoint there is
"Commander Jacob Morton, the Houston's executive officer", who I assume
is fictional.
"This is the tale of Mr. Morton
Mr. Morton is who?
He is the subject of our tale
And the predicate tells what Mr. Morton must do ..."

Schoolhouse Rock is always on topic,
Tony
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-11-17 18:27:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Nance
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Here we are again, possibly less late than usual with books from October.
As is traditional (and possibly required): The links below are Amazon
affiliate ones which could potentially earn me something should you
choose to buy through one.
====
Acts of War: A World War II Alternative History
(The Usurper's War Book 1)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3UAZsmc
Collisions of the Damned: The Defense of the Dutch East Indies
(The Usurper's War Book 2)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3AryUx3
Here's the first two books of what I believe is to be an alt-hist
WWII trilogy.
The jumping off point for this universe is that the British take
out Hitler in a bombing raid on Berlin. They had no idea where he
was -- it was just one of those lucky accidents of war. Or, in
this case unlucky accidents of war.
<SNIP>
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
So anyway, that's a long winded setup. The actual action of these
books is mainly centered on a dysfunctional Alabama family whose
sons are all in the military, and whose daughter has escaped an
unsuitable marriage by fleeing to Pearl Harbor. There are also
story-lines centering on an American ex-pat who has been flying for
a Polish resistance squadron, and who is consequently in bad odor
at home as a mercenary (the US being at peace with both Germany &
Japan as the series starts), a battle cruiser first officer in the
US Asiatic fleet, various Japanese notables and minor characters
who come and go.
"battle cruiser first officer in the US Asiatic fleet"?!
The US Navy did not have battle cruisers (the "Lexington" and "Saratoga"
would had been, but that class was cancelled by the Washington Naval
Treaty and those 2 ships were converted in Aircraft carriers). In fact,
the biggest ship in the US Asiatic fleet in 1941 was the USS Houston
(9195 tons displacement) which was classified as a heavy cruiser solely
because of 8 inch gun main batteries (it was originally classified as a
light cruise)
It was the USS Houston, and I didn't go back to check exactly what type
of ship it was (or even the name). Our viewpoint there is
"Commander Jacob Morton, the Houston's executive officer", who I assume
is fictional.
"This is the tale of Mr. Morton
Mr. Morton is who?
He is the subject of our tale
And the predicate tells what Mr. Morton must do ..."
Schoolhouse Rock is always on topic,
Tony
I wouldn't know, I'm just a bill!
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
William Hyde
2024-11-18 22:44:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Here we are again, possibly less late than usual with books from October.
As is traditional (and possibly required): The links below are Amazon
affiliate ones which could potentially earn me something should you
choose to buy through one.
====
Acts of War: A World War II Alternative History
(The Usurper's War Book 1)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3UAZsmc
Collisions of the Damned: The Defense of the Dutch East Indies
(The Usurper's War Book 2)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3AryUx3
Here's the first two books of what I believe is to be an alt-hist
WWII trilogy.
The jumping off point for this universe is that the British take
out Hitler in a bombing raid on Berlin. They had no idea where he
was -- it was just one of those lucky accidents of war. Or, in
this case unlucky accidents of war.
Unlucky because taking out Hitler proved a very good thing for the
Germans. Himmler came in after sidelining Goering (possibly fatally,
I don't quite recall),
Plausible enough, but I suspect that "Der Treue Heinrich" would have
been dead in the same ditch as Goering and the generals would have taken
over, in effect at least. Perhaps with a nonentity like Hess as titular
leader.

Of the leaders only Goebbels had any talent for backstabbing, but I
don't think the army would put up with him.

Besides, if the author wants a German leader who is keen on peace
Goering is the ideal choice. Having looted to his heart's content, he
was happy to enjoy his wealth and status (and morphine) without the
risks of war.

and said to the Brits basically: Look Hitler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
was really a loose cannon and things got out of hand. What's done
is done, and we're not giving back anything our boys died for, but
is there really any reason we still need to be at war?
Churchill said 'yes', but was eventually turfed out in favor of
Eden
Let me guess, the author looked up a list of UK cabinet members and
threw a dart? Eden was well down the list of possible PMs at this
point, with only the war having restored him to the leading circle from
the pariah status he was consigned to in the late 1930s.

And if peace broke out certainly an appeaser like Halifax would have
been handed the job. Might as well say they gave the PM position to
Brendan Bracken.


who turned out to be what some people have always suspected
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
and made peace.
And some people think that Washington was George III's illegitimate son.

Or at least I could convince some of that.

Sounds like an author to avoid.

William Hyde
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-11-18 23:25:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Here we are again, possibly less late than usual with books from October.
As is traditional (and possibly required): The links below are Amazon
affiliate ones which could potentially earn me something should you
choose to buy through one.
====
Acts of War: A World War II Alternative History
(The Usurper's War Book 1)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3UAZsmc
Collisions of the Damned: The Defense of the Dutch East Indies
(The Usurper's War Book 2)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3AryUx3
Here's the first two books of what I believe is to be an alt-hist
WWII trilogy.
The jumping off point for this universe is that the British take
out Hitler in a bombing raid on Berlin. They had no idea where he
was -- it was just one of those lucky accidents of war. Or, in
this case unlucky accidents of war.
Unlucky because taking out Hitler proved a very good thing for the
Germans. Himmler came in after sidelining Goering (possibly fatally,
I don't quite recall),
Plausible enough, but I suspect that "Der Treue Heinrich" would have
been dead in the same ditch as Goering and the generals would have taken
over, in effect at least. Perhaps with a nonentity like Hess as titular
leader.
Of the leaders only Goebbels had any talent for backstabbing, but I
don't think the army would put up with him.
Besides, if the author wants a German leader who is keen on peace
Goering is the ideal choice. Having looted to his heart's content, he
was happy to enjoy his wealth and status (and morphine) without the
risks of war.
and said to the Brits basically: Look Hitler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
was really a loose cannon and things got out of hand. What's done
is done, and we're not giving back anything our boys died for, but
is there really any reason we still need to be at war?
Churchill said 'yes', but was eventually turfed out in favor of
Eden
Let me guess, the author looked up a list of UK cabinet members and
threw a dart? Eden was well down the list of possible PMs at this
point, with only the war having restored him to the leading circle from
the pariah status he was consigned to in the late 1930s.
And if peace broke out certainly an appeaser like Halifax would have
been handed the job. Might as well say they gave the PM position to
Brendan Bracken.
who turned out to be what some people have always suspected
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
and made peace.
And some people think that Washington was George III's illegitimate son.
Or at least I could convince some of that.
Sounds like an author to avoid.
William Hyde
No, this is entirely my fault. Rather than going back to the book
while I was writing the review, I was going on my memory which was
entirely wrong on at least two issues: battle cruiser vs battleship
and Halifax vs Eden. I don't know why I had Eden on the brain when
I was definitely familiar with Halifax, but it was Halifax who was
the accommodationist PM in this setting, not Eden.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
William Hyde
2024-11-19 19:21:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by William Hyde
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Here we are again, possibly less late than usual with books from October.
As is traditional (and possibly required): The links below are Amazon
affiliate ones which could potentially earn me something should you
choose to buy through one.
====
Acts of War: A World War II Alternative History
(The Usurper's War Book 1)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3UAZsmc
Collisions of the Damned: The Defense of the Dutch East Indies
(The Usurper's War Book 2)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3AryUx3
Here's the first two books of what I believe is to be an alt-hist
WWII trilogy.
The jumping off point for this universe is that the British take
out Hitler in a bombing raid on Berlin. They had no idea where he
was -- it was just one of those lucky accidents of war. Or, in
this case unlucky accidents of war.
Unlucky because taking out Hitler proved a very good thing for the
Germans. Himmler came in after sidelining Goering (possibly fatally,
I don't quite recall),
Plausible enough, but I suspect that "Der Treue Heinrich" would have
been dead in the same ditch as Goering and the generals would have taken
over, in effect at least. Perhaps with a nonentity like Hess as titular
leader.
Of the leaders only Goebbels had any talent for backstabbing, but I
don't think the army would put up with him.
Besides, if the author wants a German leader who is keen on peace
Goering is the ideal choice. Having looted to his heart's content, he
was happy to enjoy his wealth and status (and morphine) without the
risks of war.
and said to the Brits basically: Look Hitler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
was really a loose cannon and things got out of hand. What's done
is done, and we're not giving back anything our boys died for, but
is there really any reason we still need to be at war?
Churchill said 'yes', but was eventually turfed out in favor of
Eden
Let me guess, the author looked up a list of UK cabinet members and
threw a dart? Eden was well down the list of possible PMs at this
point, with only the war having restored him to the leading circle from
the pariah status he was consigned to in the late 1930s.
And if peace broke out certainly an appeaser like Halifax would have
been handed the job. Might as well say they gave the PM position to
Brendan Bracken.
who turned out to be what some people have always suspected
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
and made peace.
And some people think that Washington was George III's illegitimate son.
Or at least I could convince some of that.
Sounds like an author to avoid.
William Hyde
No, this is entirely my fault. Rather than going back to the book
while I was writing the review, I was going on my memory which was
entirely wrong on at least two issues: battle cruiser vs battleship
and Halifax vs Eden. I don't know why I had Eden on the brain when
I was definitely familiar with Halifax, but it was Halifax who was
the accommodationist PM in this setting, not Eden.
Makes sense then.

An author not to be avoided.

I'm still going to run with the George III thing as soon as I can find a
likely victim.



William Hyde
Lynn McGuire
2024-11-20 23:48:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Here we are again, possibly less late than usual with books from October.
As is traditional (and possibly required): The links below are Amazon
affiliate ones which could potentially earn me something should you
choose to buy through one.
====
Acts of War: A World War II Alternative History
(The Usurper's War Book 1)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3UAZsmc
Collisions of the Damned: The Defense of the Dutch East Indies
(The Usurper's War Book 2)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3AryUx3
Here's the first two books of what I believe is to be an alt-hist
WWII trilogy.
The jumping off point for this universe is that the British take
out Hitler in a bombing raid on Berlin.  They had no idea where he
was -- it was just one of those lucky accidents of war.  Or, in
this case unlucky accidents of war.
Unlucky because taking out Hitler proved a very good thing for the
Germans.  Himmler came in after sidelining Goering (possibly fatally,
I don't quite recall),
Plausible enough, but I suspect that "Der Treue Heinrich" would have
been dead in the same ditch as Goering and the generals would have taken
over, in effect at least.  Perhaps with a nonentity like Hess as titular
leader.
Of the leaders only Goebbels had any talent for backstabbing, but I
don't think the army would put up with him.
Besides, if the author wants a German leader who is keen on peace
Goering is the ideal choice.  Having looted to his heart's content, he
was happy to enjoy his wealth and status (and morphine) without the
risks of war.
  and said to the Brits basically: Look Hitler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
was really a loose cannon and things got out of hand.  What's done
is done, and we're not giving back anything our boys died for, but
is there really any reason we still need to be at war?
Churchill said 'yes', but was eventually turfed out in favor of
Eden
Let me guess, the author looked up a list of UK cabinet members and
threw a dart?  Eden was well down the list of possible PMs at this
point, with only the war having restored him to the leading circle from
the pariah status he was consigned to in the late 1930s.
And if peace broke out certainly an appeaser like Halifax would have
been handed the job.  Might as well say they gave the PM position to
Brendan Bracken.
  who turned out to be what some people have always suspected
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
and made peace.
And some people think that Washington was George III's illegitimate son.
Or at least I could convince some of that.
Sounds like an author to avoid.
William Hyde
No, this is entirely my fault.  Rather than going back to the book
while I was writing the review, I was going on my memory which was
entirely wrong on at least two issues: battle cruiser vs battleship
and Halifax vs Eden.  I don't know why I had Eden on the brain when
I was definitely familiar with Halifax, but it was Halifax who was
the accommodationist PM in this setting, not Eden.
Makes sense then.
An author not to be avoided.
I'm still going to run with the George III thing as soon as I can find a
likely victim.
William Hyde
Seeing as George III was born in 1738 and George Washington was born in
1732, that did not happen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_III
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington

Now if you want to talk about George II, ...

Lynn
William Hyde
2024-11-21 00:25:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Here we are again, possibly less late than usual with books from October.
As is traditional (and possibly required): The links below are Amazon
affiliate ones which could potentially earn me something should you
choose to buy through one.
====
Acts of War: A World War II Alternative History
(The Usurper's War Book 1)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3UAZsmc
Collisions of the Damned: The Defense of the Dutch East Indies
(The Usurper's War Book 2)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3AryUx3
Here's the first two books of what I believe is to be an alt-hist
WWII trilogy.
The jumping off point for this universe is that the British take
out Hitler in a bombing raid on Berlin.  They had no idea where he
was -- it was just one of those lucky accidents of war.  Or, in
this case unlucky accidents of war.
Unlucky because taking out Hitler proved a very good thing for the
Germans.  Himmler came in after sidelining Goering (possibly fatally,
I don't quite recall),
Plausible enough, but I suspect that "Der Treue Heinrich" would have
been dead in the same ditch as Goering and the generals would have taken
over, in effect at least.  Perhaps with a nonentity like Hess as titular
leader.
Of the leaders only Goebbels had any talent for backstabbing, but I
don't think the army would put up with him.
Besides, if the author wants a German leader who is keen on peace
Goering is the ideal choice.  Having looted to his heart's content, he
was happy to enjoy his wealth and status (and morphine) without the
risks of war.
  and said to the Brits basically: Look Hitler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
was really a loose cannon and things got out of hand.  What's done
is done, and we're not giving back anything our boys died for, but
is there really any reason we still need to be at war?
Churchill said 'yes', but was eventually turfed out in favor of
Eden
Let me guess, the author looked up a list of UK cabinet members and
threw a dart?  Eden was well down the list of possible PMs at this
point, with only the war having restored him to the leading circle from
the pariah status he was consigned to in the late 1930s.
And if peace broke out certainly an appeaser like Halifax would have
been handed the job.  Might as well say they gave the PM position to
Brendan Bracken.
  who turned out to be what some people have always suspected
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
and made peace.
And some people think that Washington was George III's illegitimate son.
Or at least I could convince some of that.
Sounds like an author to avoid.
William Hyde
No, this is entirely my fault.  Rather than going back to the book
while I was writing the review, I was going on my memory which was
entirely wrong on at least two issues: battle cruiser vs battleship
and Halifax vs Eden.  I don't know why I had Eden on the brain when
I was definitely familiar with Halifax, but it was Halifax who was
the accommodationist PM in this setting, not Eden.
Makes sense then.
An author not to be avoided.
I'm still going to run with the George III thing as soon as I can find
a likely victim.
William Hyde
Seeing as George III was born in 1738 and George Washington was born in
1732, that did not happen.
So says fake history.

William Hyde
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-11-21 04:10:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Here we are again, possibly less late than usual with books from October.
As is traditional (and possibly required): The links below are Amazon
affiliate ones which could potentially earn me something should you
choose to buy through one.
====
Acts of War: A World War II Alternative History
(The Usurper's War Book 1)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3UAZsmc
Collisions of the Damned: The Defense of the Dutch East Indies
(The Usurper's War Book 2)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3AryUx3
Here's the first two books of what I believe is to be an alt-hist
WWII trilogy.
The jumping off point for this universe is that the British take
out Hitler in a bombing raid on Berlin.  They had no idea where he
was -- it was just one of those lucky accidents of war.  Or, in
this case unlucky accidents of war.
Unlucky because taking out Hitler proved a very good thing for the
Germans.  Himmler came in after sidelining Goering (possibly fatally,
I don't quite recall),
Plausible enough, but I suspect that "Der Treue Heinrich" would have
been dead in the same ditch as Goering and the generals would have taken
over, in effect at least.  Perhaps with a nonentity like Hess as
titular
leader.
Of the leaders only Goebbels had any talent for backstabbing, but I
don't think the army would put up with him.
Besides, if the author wants a German leader who is keen on peace
Goering is the ideal choice.  Having looted to his heart's content, he
was happy to enjoy his wealth and status (and morphine) without the
risks of war.
  and said to the Brits basically: Look Hitler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
was really a loose cannon and things got out of hand.  What's done
is done, and we're not giving back anything our boys died for, but
is there really any reason we still need to be at war?
Churchill said 'yes', but was eventually turfed out in favor of
Eden
Let me guess, the author looked up a list of UK cabinet members and
threw a dart?  Eden was well down the list of possible PMs at this
point, with only the war having restored him to the leading circle from
the pariah status he was consigned to in the late 1930s.
And if peace broke out certainly an appeaser like Halifax would have
been handed the job.  Might as well say they gave the PM position to
Brendan Bracken.
  who turned out to be what some people have always suspected
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
and made peace.
And some people think that Washington was George III's illegitimate son.
Or at least I could convince some of that.
Sounds like an author to avoid.
William Hyde
No, this is entirely my fault.  Rather than going back to the book
while I was writing the review, I was going on my memory which was
entirely wrong on at least two issues: battle cruiser vs battleship
and Halifax vs Eden.  I don't know why I had Eden on the brain when
I was definitely familiar with Halifax, but it was Halifax who was
the accommodationist PM in this setting, not Eden.
Makes sense then.
An author not to be avoided.
I'm still going to run with the George III thing as soon as I can find
a likely victim.
William Hyde
Seeing as George III was born in 1738 and George Washington was born in
1732, that did not happen.
So says fake history.
William Hyde
"There is the leaky past, but it cannot leak out fast enough
for safety," Barnaby had taken up his tale again. He always
came as directly as possible to a point, but the point was
often a tricky one. "The staggering corpus of past events,
and of non-central or nonconsensus events, is diminished
swiftly. More and more things that once happened are now
made not to have happened. This is absolute necessity, I
suppose, even though the flesh between the lines (it is, I
guess, the supposedly expunged flesh) should scream from
the agony of the compression.

"Velikovsky was derided for writing that six hundred years
must be subtracted from Egyptian history and from all ancient
history. He shouldn't have been derided, but he did have
it backwards. Indeed, six times six hundred years must be
added to history again and again to approach the truth of
the matter. It'd be dangerous to do it, though. It's crammed
as tight as it will go now, and there's tremors all along
the fault lines. As a matter of fact, several decades have
been left out of quite recent United States history. They
should be put back in for they're interesting, and we
ourselves lived through parts of them--if it were safe to
do so."

"How about the count of the years and their present total?"
Harry O'Donovan asked. "Are they right or are they not? Is
this really the year that it says it is on that calendar
on the wall? And, if it is, doesn't that make nonsense about
leaving out recent decades?"

"The count of the years is true, in that it is one aspect
of the truth," Barnaby said a little bit fumblingly. "But
there are other aspects. They call into question the whole
nature of simultaneity."

"What doesn't?" Harry O'Donovan said.

"There are taboos in mathematics," Barnaby tried to explain.
"The idea of the involuted number series is taboo, and yet
we live in a time that is counted by such a series. And
when time is fleshed, when it puts on History for its
clothes, it follows even more the involuted series in which
there are very, very many numbers between one and ten."

"Just what do you have in mind, Barney?" Cris Benedetti asked him.

"I have never discovered any historical event happening for
the first time," Barnaby said. "Either life imitates anecdote,
or very much more has happened than the bursting records
are allowed to show as happening. As far back as one can
track it, there is history: and I do not mean prehistory.
I doubt if there was ever such a time as prehistory. I doubt
that there was ever an uncivilized man. I also doubt that
there was ever any manlike creature who was not full man,
however unconventional the suit of hide that he wore.

"But when you try to compress a hundred thousand years of
history into six thousand years, something has to give.
When you try to compress a million years, it becomes
dangerous. An involuted number series, particularly when
applied to the spate of years, becomes a tightly coiled
spring of primordial spring-steel. When it recoils, look
out! There comes the revenge of things left out.

"Were there eight kings of the name of Henry in England,
or were there eighty? Never mind: someday it will be recorded
that there was only one, and the attributes of all of them
will be combined into his compressed and consensus story.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Don
2024-11-21 06:35:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by William Hyde
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by William Hyde
I'm still going to run with the George III thing as soon as I can find
a likely victim.
Seeing as George III was born in 1738 and George Washington was born in
1732, that did not happen.
So says fake history.
"There is the leaky past, but it cannot leak out fast enough
for safety," Barnaby had taken up his tale again. He always
came as directly as possible to a point, but the point was
often a tricky one. "The staggering corpus of past events,
and of non-central or nonconsensus events, is diminished
swiftly. More and more things that once happened are now
made not to have happened. This is absolute necessity, I
suppose, even though the flesh between the lines (it is, I
guess, the supposedly expunged flesh) should scream from
the agony of the compression.
"Velikovsky was derided for writing that six hundred years
must be subtracted from Egyptian history and from all ancient
history. He shouldn't have been derided, but he did have
it backwards. Indeed, six times six hundred years must be
added to history again and again to approach the truth of
the matter. It'd be dangerous to do it, though. It's crammed
as tight as it will go now, and there's tremors all along
the fault lines. As a matter of fact, several decades have
been left out of quite recent United States history. They
should be put back in for they're interesting, and we
ourselves lived through parts of them--if it were safe to
do so."
"How about the count of the years and their present total?"
Harry O'Donovan asked. "Are they right or are they not? Is
this really the year that it says it is on that calendar
on the wall? And, if it is, doesn't that make nonsense about
leaving out recent decades?"
"The count of the years is true, in that it is one aspect
of the truth," Barnaby said a little bit fumblingly. "But
there are other aspects. They call into question the whole
nature of simultaneity."
"What doesn't?" Harry O'Donovan said.
"There are taboos in mathematics," Barnaby tried to explain.
"The idea of the involuted number series is taboo, and yet
we live in a time that is counted by such a series. And
when time is fleshed, when it puts on History for its
clothes, it follows even more the involuted series in which
there are very, very many numbers between one and ten."
"Just what do you have in mind, Barney?" Cris Benedetti asked him.
"I have never discovered any historical event happening for
the first time," Barnaby said. "Either life imitates anecdote,
or very much more has happened than the bursting records
are allowed to show as happening. As far back as one can
track it, there is history: and I do not mean prehistory.
I doubt if there was ever such a time as prehistory. I doubt
that there was ever an uncivilized man. I also doubt that
there was ever any manlike creature who was not full man,
however unconventional the suit of hide that he wore.
"But when you try to compress a hundred thousand years of
history into six thousand years, something has to give.
When you try to compress a million years, it becomes
dangerous. An involuted number series, particularly when
applied to the spate of years, becomes a tightly coiled
spring of primordial spring-steel. When it recoils, look
out! There comes the revenge of things left out.
"Were there eight kings of the name of Henry in England,
or were there eighty? Never mind: someday it will be recorded
that there was only one, and the attributes of all of them
will be combined into his compressed and consensus story.
Is George destined to become his own grandpa?




I'm My Own Grandpa: A Canonical Analysis

"I'm My Own Grandpa," for those few who may not know, was a
signature song for country comedy artists (and Grand Ole
Opry regulars) Lonzo & Oscar. It has also been recorded by
others, including Grandpa Jones, and it makes a memorable
appearance in the hilariously stupid movie, The Stupids
(which is also remarkably clean, one of the few such comedy
films).

The premise of the song is that an unusual pair of marriages
result in bizarre relational implications for the character
in the song, such that he is now his own grandpa (as you
might suppose from the title).

The bizarre relationships that result from this pair of
marriages are extensive, and now someone has now gone and
done a hypertext version of the song that allows you to keep
track of how all the relationships work, complete with diagrams.

With this in mind (and linking the hypertext version), a
reader writes:

Would the following be considered licit... from the [Catholic]
Church's perspective? ...

<https://jimmyakin.com/2006/09/im_my_own_grand.html>


Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-11-21 06:38:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Don
<snip>
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by William Hyde
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by William Hyde
I'm still going to run with the George III thing as soon as I can find
a likely victim.
Seeing as George III was born in 1738 and George Washington was born in
1732, that did not happen.
So says fake history.
"There is the leaky past, but it cannot leak out fast enough
for safety," Barnaby had taken up his tale again. He always
came as directly as possible to a point, but the point was
often a tricky one. "The staggering corpus of past events,
and of non-central or nonconsensus events, is diminished
swiftly. More and more things that once happened are now
made not to have happened. This is absolute necessity, I
suppose, even though the flesh between the lines (it is, I
guess, the supposedly expunged flesh) should scream from
the agony of the compression.
"Velikovsky was derided for writing that six hundred years
must be subtracted from Egyptian history and from all ancient
history. He shouldn't have been derided, but he did have
it backwards. Indeed, six times six hundred years must be
added to history again and again to approach the truth of
the matter. It'd be dangerous to do it, though. It's crammed
as tight as it will go now, and there's tremors all along
the fault lines. As a matter of fact, several decades have
been left out of quite recent United States history. They
should be put back in for they're interesting, and we
ourselves lived through parts of them--if it were safe to
do so."
"How about the count of the years and their present total?"
Harry O'Donovan asked. "Are they right or are they not? Is
this really the year that it says it is on that calendar
on the wall? And, if it is, doesn't that make nonsense about
leaving out recent decades?"
"The count of the years is true, in that it is one aspect
of the truth," Barnaby said a little bit fumblingly. "But
there are other aspects. They call into question the whole
nature of simultaneity."
"What doesn't?" Harry O'Donovan said.
"There are taboos in mathematics," Barnaby tried to explain.
"The idea of the involuted number series is taboo, and yet
we live in a time that is counted by such a series. And
when time is fleshed, when it puts on History for its
clothes, it follows even more the involuted series in which
there are very, very many numbers between one and ten."
"Just what do you have in mind, Barney?" Cris Benedetti asked him.
"I have never discovered any historical event happening for
the first time," Barnaby said. "Either life imitates anecdote,
or very much more has happened than the bursting records
are allowed to show as happening. As far back as one can
track it, there is history: and I do not mean prehistory.
I doubt if there was ever such a time as prehistory. I doubt
that there was ever an uncivilized man. I also doubt that
there was ever any manlike creature who was not full man,
however unconventional the suit of hide that he wore.
"But when you try to compress a hundred thousand years of
history into six thousand years, something has to give.
When you try to compress a million years, it becomes
dangerous. An involuted number series, particularly when
applied to the spate of years, becomes a tightly coiled
spring of primordial spring-steel. When it recoils, look
out! There comes the revenge of things left out.
"Were there eight kings of the name of Henry in England,
or were there eighty? Never mind: someday it will be recorded
that there was only one, and the attributes of all of them
will be combined into his compressed and consensus story.
Is George destined to become his own grandpa?
http://youtu.be/x3CvRC4fAmk
I'm My Own Grandpa: A Canonical Analysis
"I'm My Own Grandpa," for those few who may not know, was a
signature song for country comedy artists (and Grand Ole
Opry regulars) Lonzo & Oscar. It has also been recorded by
others, including Grandpa Jones, and it makes a memorable
appearance in the hilariously stupid movie, The Stupids
(which is also remarkably clean, one of the few such comedy
films).
The premise of the song is that an unusual pair of marriages
result in bizarre relational implications for the character
in the song, such that he is now his own grandpa (as you
might suppose from the title).
The bizarre relationships that result from this pair of
marriages are extensive, and now someone has now gone and
done a hypertext version of the song that allows you to keep
track of how all the relationships work, complete with diagrams.
With this in mind (and linking the hypertext version), a
Would the following be considered licit... from the [Catholic]
Church's perspective? ...
<https://jimmyakin.com/2006/09/im_my_own_grand.html>
Also figures in Heinlein's "All You Zombies".
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Paul S Person
2024-11-21 16:54:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 06:35:40 -0000 (UTC), Don <***@crcomp.net> wrote:

<snippo: "George" is GeorgeIII or perhaps G. Washingon>
Post by Don
Is George destined to become his own grandpa?
http://youtu.be/x3CvRC4fAmk
I'm My Own Grandpa: A Canonical Analysis
"I'm My Own Grandpa," for those few who may not know, was a
signature song for country comedy artists (and Grand Ole
Opry regulars) Lonzo & Oscar. It has also been recorded by
others, including Grandpa Jones, and it makes a memorable
appearance in the hilariously stupid movie, The Stupids
(which is also remarkably clean, one of the few such comedy
films).
The premise of the song is that an unusual pair of marriages
result in bizarre relational implications for the character
in the song, such that he is now his own grandpa (as you
might suppose from the title).
The bizarre relationships that result from this pair of
marriages are extensive, and now someone has now gone and
done a hypertext version of the song that allows you to keep
track of how all the relationships work, complete with diagrams.
With this in mind (and linking the hypertext version), a
Would the following be considered licit... from the [Catholic]
Church's perspective? ...
<https://jimmyakin.com/2006/09/im_my_own_grand.html>
In a major family reunion, re-uniting after decades the brother and
sister who, of the 11 children their parents had, were the only two to
reach adulthood (life was hard in the 1880s or so on the Great
Plains), I met two young (8 and 11, IIRC) who were referred to as
"cousins" (American English being very liberal in the use of this
word) but who were, in fact, Aunt and Niece.

And the Aunt was the /younger/ one.

So, yes, some strange convolutions can happen in real life.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"
Don
2024-11-21 17:43:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
<snippo: "George" is GeorgeIII or perhaps G. Washingon>
Post by Don
Is George destined to become his own grandpa?
http://youtu.be/x3CvRC4fAmk
I'm My Own Grandpa: A Canonical Analysis
"I'm My Own Grandpa," for those few who may not know, was a
signature song for country comedy artists (and Grand Ole
Opry regulars) Lonzo & Oscar. It has also been recorded by
others, including Grandpa Jones, and it makes a memorable
appearance in the hilariously stupid movie, The Stupids
(which is also remarkably clean, one of the few such comedy
films).
The premise of the song is that an unusual pair of marriages
result in bizarre relational implications for the character
in the song, such that he is now his own grandpa (as you
might suppose from the title).
The bizarre relationships that result from this pair of
marriages are extensive, and now someone has now gone and
done a hypertext version of the song that allows you to keep
track of how all the relationships work, complete with diagrams.
With this in mind (and linking the hypertext version), a
Would the following be considered licit... from the [Catholic]
Church's perspective? ...
<https://jimmyakin.com/2006/09/im_my_own_grand.html>
In a major family reunion, re-uniting after decades the brother and
sister who, of the 11 children their parents had, were the only two to
reach adulthood (life was hard in the 1880s or so on the Great
Plains), I met two young (8 and 11, IIRC) who were referred to as
"cousins" (American English being very liberal in the use of this
word) but who were, in fact, Aunt and Niece.
And the Aunt was the /younger/ one.
So, yes, some strange convolutions can happen in real life.
Do all of this thread's topical followups lead to Heinlein?

"When you hear a woman about forty address a fifteen-
year-old as 'Mama Milla,' you'll know which is wife
and which is daughter-not even that complex as we
don't have daughters home past husband-high; they get
opted."

THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS by Heinlein

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.
Scott Lurndal
2024-11-21 17:51:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Don
<https://jimmyakin.com/2006/09/im_my_own_grand.html>
In a major family reunion, re-uniting after decades the brother and
sister who, of the 11 children their parents had, were the only two to
reach adulthood (life was hard in the 1880s or so on the Great
Plains), I met two young (8 and 11, IIRC) who were referred to as
"cousins" (American English being very liberal in the use of this
word) but who were, in fact, Aunt and Niece.=20
Technically, the definition of cousin (first) is that they
share a grandparent. A second cousin shares a great-grandparent.
Once removed if a generation apart.
Paul S Person
2024-11-22 16:50:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Don
<https://jimmyakin.com/2006/09/im_my_own_grand.html>
In a major family reunion, re-uniting after decades the brother and
sister who, of the 11 children their parents had, were the only two to
reach adulthood (life was hard in the 1880s or so on the Great
Plains), I met two young (8 and 11, IIRC) who were referred to as
"cousins" (American English being very liberal in the use of this
word) but who were, in fact, Aunt and Niece.=20
Technically, the definition of cousin (first) is that they
share a grandparent. A second cousin shares a great-grandparent.
Once removed if a generation apart.
At the time, I was into family geneology.

And I still remember all the "cousin" details.

Nonetheless, "cousin" is actually used far more loosely.

Particularly of groups of people who are related to each other but not
all in the same way (ie, not all are "German cousins", AKA "first
cousins"). The brother and sisters grandparents were brought here as
small children by their families when those families immigrated from
Germany.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"
Robert Woodward
2024-11-21 05:49:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Here we are again, possibly less late than usual with books from October.
As is traditional (and possibly required): The links below are Amazon
affiliate ones which could potentially earn me something should you
choose to buy through one.
====
Acts of War: A World War II Alternative History
(The Usurper's War Book 1)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3UAZsmc
Collisions of the Damned: The Defense of the Dutch East Indies
(The Usurper's War Book 2)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3AryUx3
Here's the first two books of what I believe is to be an alt-hist
WWII trilogy.
The jumping off point for this universe is that the British take
out Hitler in a bombing raid on Berlin.  They had no idea where he
was -- it was just one of those lucky accidents of war.  Or, in
this case unlucky accidents of war.
Unlucky because taking out Hitler proved a very good thing for the
Germans.  Himmler came in after sidelining Goering (possibly fatally,
I don't quite recall),
Plausible enough, but I suspect that "Der Treue Heinrich" would have
been dead in the same ditch as Goering and the generals would have taken
over, in effect at least.  Perhaps with a nonentity like Hess as titular
leader.
Of the leaders only Goebbels had any talent for backstabbing, but I
don't think the army would put up with him.
Besides, if the author wants a German leader who is keen on peace
Goering is the ideal choice.  Having looted to his heart's content, he
was happy to enjoy his wealth and status (and morphine) without the
risks of war.
  and said to the Brits basically: Look Hitler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
was really a loose cannon and things got out of hand.  What's done
is done, and we're not giving back anything our boys died for, but
is there really any reason we still need to be at war?
Churchill said 'yes', but was eventually turfed out in favor of
Eden
Let me guess, the author looked up a list of UK cabinet members and
threw a dart?  Eden was well down the list of possible PMs at this
point, with only the war having restored him to the leading circle from
the pariah status he was consigned to in the late 1930s.
And if peace broke out certainly an appeaser like Halifax would have
been handed the job.  Might as well say they gave the PM position to
Brendan Bracken.
  who turned out to be what some people have always suspected
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
and made peace.
And some people think that Washington was George III's illegitimate son.
Or at least I could convince some of that.
Sounds like an author to avoid.
William Hyde
No, this is entirely my fault.  Rather than going back to the book
while I was writing the review, I was going on my memory which was
entirely wrong on at least two issues: battle cruiser vs battleship
and Halifax vs Eden.  I don't know why I had Eden on the brain when
I was definitely familiar with Halifax, but it was Halifax who was
the accommodationist PM in this setting, not Eden.
Makes sense then.
An author not to be avoided.
I'm still going to run with the George III thing as soon as I can find a
likely victim.
William Hyde
Seeing as George III was born in 1738 and George Washington was born in
1732, that did not happen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_III
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington
Now if you want to talk about George II, ...
I must point out that he was the grandfather of George III. It doesn't
appear that Frederick Louis (he died at age 44), son of George II and
father of George III, ever left Europe.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
William Hyde
2024-11-21 19:54:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Here we are again, possibly less late than usual with books from October.
As is traditional (and possibly required): The links below are Amazon
affiliate ones which could potentially earn me something should you
choose to buy through one.
====
Acts of War: A World War II Alternative History
(The Usurper's War Book 1)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3UAZsmc
Collisions of the Damned: The Defense of the Dutch East Indies
(The Usurper's War Book 2)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3AryUx3
Here's the first two books of what I believe is to be an alt-hist
WWII trilogy.
The jumping off point for this universe is that the British take
out Hitler in a bombing raid on Berlin.  They had no idea where he
was -- it was just one of those lucky accidents of war.  Or, in
this case unlucky accidents of war.
Unlucky because taking out Hitler proved a very good thing for the
Germans.  Himmler came in after sidelining Goering (possibly fatally,
I don't quite recall),
Plausible enough, but I suspect that "Der Treue Heinrich" would have
been dead in the same ditch as Goering and the generals would have taken
over, in effect at least.  Perhaps with a nonentity like Hess as titular
leader.
Of the leaders only Goebbels had any talent for backstabbing, but I
don't think the army would put up with him.
Besides, if the author wants a German leader who is keen on peace
Goering is the ideal choice.  Having looted to his heart's content, he
was happy to enjoy his wealth and status (and morphine) without the
risks of war.
  and said to the Brits basically: Look Hitler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
was really a loose cannon and things got out of hand.  What's done
is done, and we're not giving back anything our boys died for, but
is there really any reason we still need to be at war?
Churchill said 'yes', but was eventually turfed out in favor of
Eden
Let me guess, the author looked up a list of UK cabinet members and
threw a dart?  Eden was well down the list of possible PMs at this
point, with only the war having restored him to the leading circle from
the pariah status he was consigned to in the late 1930s.
And if peace broke out certainly an appeaser like Halifax would have
been handed the job.  Might as well say they gave the PM position to
Brendan Bracken.
  who turned out to be what some people have always suspected
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
and made peace.
And some people think that Washington was George III's illegitimate son.
Or at least I could convince some of that.
Sounds like an author to avoid.
William Hyde
No, this is entirely my fault.  Rather than going back to the book
while I was writing the review, I was going on my memory which was
entirely wrong on at least two issues: battle cruiser vs battleship
and Halifax vs Eden.  I don't know why I had Eden on the brain when
I was definitely familiar with Halifax, but it was Halifax who was
the accommodationist PM in this setting, not Eden.
Makes sense then.
An author not to be avoided.
I'm still going to run with the George III thing as soon as I can find a
likely victim.
William Hyde
Seeing as George III was born in 1738 and George Washington was born in
1732, that did not happen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_III
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington
Now if you want to talk about George II, ...
I must point out that he was the grandfather of George III. It doesn't
appear that Frederick Louis (he died at age 44), son of George II and
father of George III, ever left Europe.
A scholarly work by noted historian Avram Davidson claims otherwise.

Davidson himself, of course, won the Hugo Award, named after noted
historian Hugo Gernsback, handed out by the American Historical society.

William Hyde
Robert Woodward
2024-11-22 05:50:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Here we are again, possibly less late than usual with books from October.
As is traditional (and possibly required): The links below are Amazon
affiliate ones which could potentially earn me something should you
choose to buy through one.
====
Acts of War: A World War II Alternative History
(The Usurper's War Book 1)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3UAZsmc
Collisions of the Damned: The Defense of the Dutch East Indies
(The Usurper's War Book 2)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3AryUx3
Here's the first two books of what I believe is to be an alt-hist
WWII trilogy.
The jumping off point for this universe is that the British take
out Hitler in a bombing raid on Berlin.  They had no idea where he
was -- it was just one of those lucky accidents of war.  Or, in
this case unlucky accidents of war.
Unlucky because taking out Hitler proved a very good thing for the
Germans.  Himmler came in after sidelining Goering (possibly fatally,
I don't quite recall),
Plausible enough, but I suspect that "Der Treue Heinrich" would have
been dead in the same ditch as Goering and the generals would have taken
over, in effect at least.  Perhaps with a nonentity like Hess as
titular
leader.
Of the leaders only Goebbels had any talent for backstabbing, but I
don't think the army would put up with him.
Besides, if the author wants a German leader who is keen on peace
Goering is the ideal choice.  Having looted to his heart's content, he
was happy to enjoy his wealth and status (and morphine) without the
risks of war.
  and said to the Brits basically: Look Hitler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
was really a loose cannon and things got out of hand.  What's done
is done, and we're not giving back anything our boys died for, but
is there really any reason we still need to be at war?
Churchill said 'yes', but was eventually turfed out in favor of
Eden
Let me guess, the author looked up a list of UK cabinet members and
threw a dart?  Eden was well down the list of possible PMs at this
point, with only the war having restored him to the leading circle from
the pariah status he was consigned to in the late 1930s.
And if peace broke out certainly an appeaser like Halifax would have
been handed the job.  Might as well say they gave the PM position to
Brendan Bracken.
  who turned out to be what some people have always suspected
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
and made peace.
And some people think that Washington was George III's illegitimate son.
Or at least I could convince some of that.
Sounds like an author to avoid.
William Hyde
No, this is entirely my fault.  Rather than going back to the book
while I was writing the review, I was going on my memory which was
entirely wrong on at least two issues: battle cruiser vs battleship
and Halifax vs Eden.  I don't know why I had Eden on the brain when
I was definitely familiar with Halifax, but it was Halifax who was
the accommodationist PM in this setting, not Eden.
Makes sense then.
An author not to be avoided.
I'm still going to run with the George III thing as soon as I can find a
likely victim.
William Hyde
Seeing as George III was born in 1738 and George Washington was born in
1732, that did not happen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_III
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington
Now if you want to talk about George II, ...
I must point out that he was the grandfather of George III. It doesn't
appear that Frederick Louis (he died at age 44), son of George II and
father of George III, ever left Europe.
A scholarly work by noted historian Avram Davidson claims otherwise.
Davidson himself, of course, won the Hugo Award, named after noted
historian Hugo Gernsback, handed out by the American Historical society.
William Hyde
I am aware of his distinguished work, especially his history of the
Scytha-Pannonia-Transbalkania empire, but I don't remember reading that
work. What is the title?
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
William Hyde
2024-11-22 22:00:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by William Hyde
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Here we are again, possibly less late than usual with books from October.
As is traditional (and possibly required): The links below are Amazon
affiliate ones which could potentially earn me something should you
choose to buy through one.
====
Acts of War: A World War II Alternative History
(The Usurper's War Book 1)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3UAZsmc
Collisions of the Damned: The Defense of the Dutch East Indies
(The Usurper's War Book 2)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3AryUx3
Here's the first two books of what I believe is to be an alt-hist
WWII trilogy.
The jumping off point for this universe is that the British take
out Hitler in a bombing raid on Berlin.  They had no idea where he
was -- it was just one of those lucky accidents of war.  Or, in
this case unlucky accidents of war.
Unlucky because taking out Hitler proved a very good thing for the
Germans.  Himmler came in after sidelining Goering (possibly fatally,
I don't quite recall),
Plausible enough, but I suspect that "Der Treue Heinrich" would have
been dead in the same ditch as Goering and the generals would have taken
over, in effect at least.  Perhaps with a nonentity like Hess as
titular
leader.
Of the leaders only Goebbels had any talent for backstabbing, but I
don't think the army would put up with him.
Besides, if the author wants a German leader who is keen on peace
Goering is the ideal choice.  Having looted to his heart's content, he
was happy to enjoy his wealth and status (and morphine) without the
risks of war.
  and said to the Brits basically: Look Hitler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
was really a loose cannon and things got out of hand.  What's done
is done, and we're not giving back anything our boys died for, but
is there really any reason we still need to be at war?
Churchill said 'yes', but was eventually turfed out in favor of
Eden
Let me guess, the author looked up a list of UK cabinet members and
threw a dart?  Eden was well down the list of possible PMs at this
point, with only the war having restored him to the leading circle from
the pariah status he was consigned to in the late 1930s.
And if peace broke out certainly an appeaser like Halifax would have
been handed the job.  Might as well say they gave the PM position to
Brendan Bracken.
  who turned out to be what some people have always suspected
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
and made peace.
And some people think that Washington was George III's illegitimate son.
Or at least I could convince some of that.
Sounds like an author to avoid.
William Hyde
No, this is entirely my fault.  Rather than going back to the book
while I was writing the review, I was going on my memory which was
entirely wrong on at least two issues: battle cruiser vs battleship
and Halifax vs Eden.  I don't know why I had Eden on the brain when
I was definitely familiar with Halifax, but it was Halifax who was
the accommodationist PM in this setting, not Eden.
Makes sense then.
An author not to be avoided.
I'm still going to run with the George III thing as soon as I can find a
likely victim.
William Hyde
Seeing as George III was born in 1738 and George Washington was born in
1732, that did not happen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_III
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington
Now if you want to talk about George II, ...
I must point out that he was the grandfather of George III. It doesn't
appear that Frederick Louis (he died at age 44), son of George II and
father of George III, ever left Europe.
A scholarly work by noted historian Avram Davidson claims otherwise.
Davidson himself, of course, won the Hugo Award, named after noted
historian Hugo Gernsback, handed out by the American Historical society.
William Hyde
I am aware of his distinguished work, especially his history of the
Scytha-Pannonia-Transbalkania empire, but I don't remember reading that
work. What is the title?
I think it was "O Brave Old World" in his collection, "The Other 19th
Century".

William Hyde
Robert Woodward
2024-11-23 05:47:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by William Hyde
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Here we are again, possibly less late than usual with books from October.
As is traditional (and possibly required): The links below are Amazon
affiliate ones which could potentially earn me something should you
choose to buy through one.
====
Acts of War: A World War II Alternative History
(The Usurper's War Book 1)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3UAZsmc
Collisions of the Damned: The Defense of the Dutch East Indies
(The Usurper's War Book 2)
by James Young
https://amzn.to/3AryUx3
Here's the first two books of what I believe is to be an alt-hist
WWII trilogy.
The jumping off point for this universe is that the British take
out Hitler in a bombing raid on Berlin.  They had no idea where
he
was -- it was just one of those lucky accidents of war.  Or, in
this case unlucky accidents of war.
Unlucky because taking out Hitler proved a very good thing for the
Germans.  Himmler came in after sidelining Goering (possibly
fatally,
I don't quite recall),
Plausible enough, but I suspect that "Der Treue Heinrich" would have
been dead in the same ditch as Goering and the generals would have taken
over, in effect at least.  Perhaps with a nonentity like Hess as
titular
leader.
Of the leaders only Goebbels had any talent for backstabbing, but I
don't think the army would put up with him.
Besides, if the author wants a German leader who is keen on peace
Goering is the ideal choice.  Having looted to his heart's
content, he
was happy to enjoy his wealth and status (and morphine) without the
risks of war.
  and said to the Brits basically: Look Hitler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
was really a loose cannon and things got out of hand.  What's
done
is done, and we're not giving back anything our boys died for, but
is there really any reason we still need to be at war?
Churchill said 'yes', but was eventually turfed out in favor of
Eden
Let me guess, the author looked up a list of UK cabinet members and
threw a dart?  Eden was well down the list of possible PMs at this
point, with only the war having restored him to the leading circle from
the pariah status he was consigned to in the late 1930s.
And if peace broke out certainly an appeaser like Halifax would have
been handed the job.  Might as well say they gave the PM position
to
Brendan Bracken.
  who turned out to be what some people have always suspected
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
and made peace.
And some people think that Washington was George III's illegitimate son.
Or at least I could convince some of that.
Sounds like an author to avoid.
William Hyde
No, this is entirely my fault.  Rather than going back to the book
while I was writing the review, I was going on my memory which was
entirely wrong on at least two issues: battle cruiser vs battleship
and Halifax vs Eden.  I don't know why I had Eden on the brain when
I was definitely familiar with Halifax, but it was Halifax who was
the accommodationist PM in this setting, not Eden.
Makes sense then.
An author not to be avoided.
I'm still going to run with the George III thing as soon as I can find a
likely victim.
William Hyde
Seeing as George III was born in 1738 and George Washington was born in
1732, that did not happen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_III
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington
Now if you want to talk about George II, ...
I must point out that he was the grandfather of George III. It doesn't
appear that Frederick Louis (he died at age 44), son of George II and
father of George III, ever left Europe.
A scholarly work by noted historian Avram Davidson claims otherwise.
Davidson himself, of course, won the Hugo Award, named after noted
historian Hugo Gernsback, handed out by the American Historical society.
William Hyde
I am aware of his distinguished work, especially his history of the
Scytha-Pannonia-Transbalkania empire, but I don't remember reading that
work. What is the title?
I think it was "O Brave Old World" in his collection, "The Other 19th
Century".
Ah ... checks the ISFDB ... I do have a book that has it ... looks at
text; you are quite right.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
The Horny Goat
2024-12-07 00:55:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 18 Nov 2024 17:44:38 -0500, William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Churchill said 'yes', but was eventually turfed out in favor of
Eden
Let me guess, the author looked up a list of UK cabinet members and
threw a dart? Eden was well down the list of possible PMs at this
point, with only the war having restored him to the leading circle from
the pariah status he was consigned to in the late 1930s.
In real life Eden was the #2 in the wartime coalition maybe not
initially but certainly from 1942 onwards. That becomes clear if
you've read Churchill's history/memoirs of the war. Churchill had
several strong ministers but no question Eden was his #2.

Whether that would have made him his replacement had Churchill had an
accident (for instance in late 1944 when he insisted on joining with
the troops when they whizzed into the Rhine) is anybody's guess.
Post by William Hyde
And if peace broke out certainly an appeaser like Halifax would have
been handed the job. Might as well say they gave the PM position to
Brendan Bracken.
While Halifax had his partisans in 1940, if you're writing an
alternate history you still have to deal with Halifax's stated reason
for not seeking the top job which was that he did not believe one
could effectively direct the political side of a major war from the
House of Lords.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-12-07 05:44:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Mon, 18 Nov 2024 17:44:38 -0500, William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Churchill said 'yes', but was eventually turfed out in favor of
Eden
Let me guess, the author looked up a list of UK cabinet members and
threw a dart? Eden was well down the list of possible PMs at this
point, with only the war having restored him to the leading circle from
the pariah status he was consigned to in the late 1930s.
In real life Eden was the #2 in the wartime coalition maybe not
initially but certainly from 1942 onwards. That becomes clear if
you've read Churchill's history/memoirs of the war. Churchill had
several strong ministers but no question Eden was his #2.
Whether that would have made him his replacement had Churchill had an
accident (for instance in late 1944 when he insisted on joining with
the troops when they whizzed into the Rhine) is anybody's guess.
Post by William Hyde
And if peace broke out certainly an appeaser like Halifax would have
been handed the job. Might as well say they gave the PM position to
Brendan Bracken.
While Halifax had his partisans in 1940, if you're writing an
alternate history you still have to deal with Halifax's stated reason
for not seeking the top job which was that he did not believe one
could effectively direct the political side of a major war from the
House of Lords.
As I have said, it *was* Halifax. I got my antique English politicians
mixed up.

The Lords issue did not come up in any conversation. Presumably it
was dealt with. WP, quoting Robert Blake apparently, says:

Churchill's political position was weak, although he was
popular with the Labour and Liberal parties for his stance
against appeasement in the 1930s. He was unpopular in the
Conservative Party, however, and he might not have been the
choice of the King. Halifax had the support of most of the
Conservative Party and of the King and was acceptable to
the Labour Party. His position as a peer was a merely
technical barrier given the scale of the crisis, and Churchill
reportedly was willing to serve under Halifax

so people have waved it away at times.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
The Horny Goat
2024-12-13 20:24:28 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by The Horny Goat
While Halifax had his partisans in 1940, if you're writing an
alternate history you still have to deal with Halifax's stated reason
for not seeking the top job which was that he did not believe one
could effectively direct the political side of a major war from the
House of Lords.
As I have said, it *was* Halifax. I got my antique English politicians
mixed up.
The Lords issue did not come up in any conversation. Presumably it
Churchill's political position was weak, although he was
popular with the Labour and Liberal parties for his stance
against appeasement in the 1930s. He was unpopular in the
Conservative Party, however, and he might not have been the
choice of the King. Halifax had the support of most of the
Conservative Party and of the King and was acceptable to
the Labour Party. His position as a peer was a merely
technical barrier given the scale of the crisis, and Churchill
reportedly was willing to serve under Halifax
"He might not have been the choice of the King" - uh Churchill was
probably the most vocal supporter of Edward VIII during the 1936
abdication crisis. And no question Queen Elizabeth (aka 'the Queen
Mother' for most of us) REALLY hated Edward as she felt her husband
having to be king greatly shortened his life so would be expected to
dislike anybody who supported Edward.

But no question Churchill makes it quite clear in his WW2 history that
Halifax figured that while a prime minister in the Lords was fine in
peacetime it would be a very very bad thing in wartime. Churchill does
not discuss whether he would serve under Halifax.

(Amongst my other crimes I have been posting in alt.history.what-if
and soc.history.what-if for at least 30 years - yes 1994 - which is a
little longer than here but not much so you can reasonably assume I'm
interested in counter-factuals)
William Hyde
2024-12-07 20:46:13 UTC
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Post by The Horny Goat
On Mon, 18 Nov 2024 17:44:38 -0500, William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Churchill said 'yes', but was eventually turfed out in favor of
Eden
Let me guess, the author looked up a list of UK cabinet members and
threw a dart? Eden was well down the list of possible PMs at this
point, with only the war having restored him to the leading circle from
the pariah status he was consigned to in the late 1930s.
In real life Eden was the #2 in the wartime coalition maybe not
initially
Very definitely not initially. And that is the time under discussion.


but certainly from 1942 onwards. That becomes clear if
Post by The Horny Goat
you've read Churchill's history/memoirs of the war. Churchill had
several strong ministers but no question Eden was his #2.
Actually I've read those but I disagree. Churchill is not the best
source on the politics of his cabinet. He focuses on more important things.

Eden was his favourite, but if Churchill had died, it is far from clear
that Eden would have become the PM. He wasn't that popular among the
conservative rank and file. People find it hard to forgive those who
have been right when they were wrong, and they'd already had to do this
with Churchill.


Churchill's friend Beaverbrook recommended in mid war that the war
cabinet be scrapped and replaced with a three person version, including
Bevin, who he clearly regarded as the number two man in the cabinet.

Eden really shored up his position with the backbench conservatives in
the postwar years. Churchill was basically a part-time leader of the
opposition, and the work fell to deputy leader Eden, who did it well.
Post by The Horny Goat
Whether that would have made him his replacement had Churchill had an
accident (for instance in late 1944 when he insisted on joining with
the troops when they whizzed into the Rhine) is anybody's guess.
Post by William Hyde
And if peace broke out certainly an appeaser like Halifax would have
been handed the job. Might as well say they gave the PM position to
Brendan Bracken.
While Halifax had his partisans in 1940, if you're writing an
alternate history you still have to deal with Halifax's stated reason
for not seeking the top job which was that he did not believe one
could effectively direct the political side of a major war from the
House of Lords.
His stated reason in private was that whoever was PM, Churchill would be
the actual decision maker, and Halifax didn't want the job in those
terms. He further mentioned that conflict between Asquith and his
powerful minister, Lloyd George, had not been good for the country in WWI.

While it is difficult to rule from the Lords, in an emergency it can be
done. This was just a face-saving excuse. Though it is to Halifax's
credit that he recognized the situation.

William Hyde
The Horny Goat
2024-12-13 20:42:01 UTC
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Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by The Horny Goat
but certainly from 1942 onwards. That becomes clear if
you've read Churchill's history/memoirs of the war. Churchill had
several strong ministers but no question Eden was his #2.
Actually I've read those but I disagree. Churchill is not the best
source on the politics of his cabinet. He focuses on more important things.
That's definitely true in his coverage of 1943-45 but not so much
earlier. One aspect of Churchill's history is that while writing it he
was essentially at the behest of Attlee since Attlee controlled how
the Official Secrets Act was applied to his history.

Attlee had worked with Churchill extensively during the war (and
played a big part in how quickly the RAF Memorial window in
Westminster Abbey was installed in 1946 - which is something Churchill
and him agreed needed to be done amongst their first acts post-war -
which makes sense since it's easier to do stained glass than bronze
statues) and knew that no one would write as good a history in the
first five years after the war as Churchill (and besides the more time
WSC spent on the history the less time he had to make trouble for
Attlee in Parliament) and knew Churchill would never breach genuine
state secrets.
Post by William Hyde
Eden was his favourite, but if Churchill had died, it is far from clear
that Eden would have become the PM. He wasn't that popular among the
conservative rank and file. People find it hard to forgive those who
have been right when they were wrong, and they'd already had to do this
with Churchill.
Eden tends to be remembered today more for the 1956 Suez crisis (which
was after Churchill left politics) but had a clear job to do during
the war and did it reasonably effectively protecting Churchill from
several of his "idiosyncrasies"
Post by William Hyde
Churchill's friend Beaverbrook recommended in mid war that the war
cabinet be scrapped and replaced with a three person version, including
Bevin, who he clearly regarded as the number two man in the cabinet.
Effectively (though not de jure) that's what Churchill DID do.
Post by William Hyde
Eden really shored up his position with the backbench conservatives in
the postwar years. Churchill was basically a part-time leader of the
opposition, and the work fell to deputy leader Eden, who did it well.
See my comments about his history above. I agree with you on Eden's
performance.

One thing for sure - had Churchill died in 1940 (the method doesn't
matter) then Britain would have lost 2 prime ministers in 1940
(Chamberlain died in Nov 1940) and it was clear that unlike Australia
Britain wasn't going to have a general election in wartime - and in
1935 there was a fairly large (200+ seats) Conservative majority so no
Labourite was going to be leading the government.

Given Eden's role up to 1940 I'd say Halifax would almost certainly
have changed his mind and gone for the top job had Churchill died.
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