Discussion:
The Warm Equations
(too old to reply)
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-06-23 16:37:14 UTC
Permalink
Interesting to note the way margins of a real-life space venture are run:

Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Cryptoengineer
2024-06-23 18:47:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
Boeing would really, really like to figure out what went wrong with
the thrusters. Unfortunately, they options for checking them in orbit
are very limited, and they're on the service module, which will be
discard before entry, and burn up.

Hopefully, a door won't pop out of this Boeing craft before they
land.

An interesting sidenote: This will be the first time the US has
tried to land a manned capsule on *land*, as opposed to an ocean
splashdown.

pt
Paul S Person
2024-06-24 15:42:04 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 23 Jun 2024 14:47:24 -0400, Cryptoengineer
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
Boeing would really, really like to figure out what went wrong with
the thrusters. Unfortunately, they options for checking them in orbit
are very limited, and they're on the service module, which will be
discard before entry, and burn up.
Hopefully, a door won't pop out of this Boeing craft before they
land.
An interesting sidenote: This will be the first time the US has
tried to land a manned capsule on *land*, as opposed to an ocean
splashdown.
I can remember when riding a vehicle built by Boeing was a sensible
thing to do. Now it looks more like an act of desperation.

If I were one of those astronauts, I think I would wait for ...
someboy else ... to send up a replacement. A replacement that /works/.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"
Scott Dorsey
2024-06-24 18:28:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
I can remember when riding a vehicle built by Boeing was a sensible
thing to do. Now it looks more like an act of desperation.
It's not just Boeing. There was a day when most of the people heading
aerospace companies were engineers.

The last Boeing CEO who was an actual engineer was Phil Condit, who left
in 2003 after engineering the McDonnell-Douglas merger (which was great for
the company but terrible for th industry). And he didn't even have a pilot's
license.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Paul S Person
2024-06-25 15:46:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Paul S Person
I can remember when riding a vehicle built by Boeing was a sensible
thing to do. Now it looks more like an act of desperation.
It's not just Boeing. There was a day when most of the people heading
aerospace companies were engineers.
The last Boeing CEO who was an actual engineer was Phil Condit, who left
in 2003 after engineering the McDonnell-Douglas merger (which was great for
the company but terrible for th industry). And he didn't even have a pilot's
license.
Looks like "managing the design/testing/construction of air/space
craft" will need to be added to "managing nuclear reactors" as things
that people with MBAs should avoid.

As opposed to, say, managing a fast food joint or perhaps even a
ball-bearing plant [1]. Things where they aren't likely to actually
kill people by using their education.

[1] This may presuppose that the customers test sample the product to
ensure that it is acceptable. Then again, fast food joints may be
subject to health inspections that keep the quality up. Boeing, OTOH,
famously captured its regulators, forcing Trump to order grounding of
one of their more obvious mess-ups when the regulators' balked. (This,
together with Project Warp Speed, are the two things Trump did as
President that might actually be considered ... Presidential.)

IIRC, one of the regulators' arguments was that every new plane had
teething problems, and this was expected to have another 8 crashes
over the next five years, which was "acceptable". It should go without
saying that none of those who found such losses "acceptable" had any
intention of ever /flying/ on one of them -- their risk was 0, so of
course they found it acceptable.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"
James Nicoll
2024-06-25 16:19:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Paul S Person
I can remember when riding a vehicle built by Boeing was a sensible
thing to do. Now it looks more like an act of desperation.
It's not just Boeing. There was a day when most of the people heading
aerospace companies were engineers.
The last Boeing CEO who was an actual engineer was Phil Condit, who left
in 2003 after engineering the McDonnell-Douglas merger (which was great for
the company but terrible for th industry). And he didn't even have a pilot's
license.
Looks like "managing the design/testing/construction of air/space
craft" will need to be added to "managing nuclear reactors" as things
that people with MBAs should avoid.
As opposed to, say, managing a fast food joint or perhaps even a
ball-bearing plant [1]. Things where they aren't likely to actually
kill people by using their education.
[1] This may presuppose that the customers test sample the product to
ensure that it is acceptable. Then again, fast food joints may be
subject to health inspections that keep the quality up.
Waterloo Region makes available the results of inspections or at
least those where the restaurants failed. It's always interesting
to see what regulations restaurants consider sometimes regulations
and to think about what they'd do if nobody was watching.

My namesake uncle went from the USN to working as a chef
in high end restaurants. One result was that he never ate out
if he could avoid it, preferring food he prepared himself and
knew had not involved... short cuts.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
The Horny Goat
2024-07-10 18:41:46 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 23 Jun 2024 14:47:24 -0400, Cryptoengineer
Post by Cryptoengineer
Boeing would really, really like to figure out what went wrong with
the thrusters. Unfortunately, they options for checking them in orbit
are very limited, and they're on the service module, which will be
discard before entry, and burn up.
Hopefully, a door won't pop out of this Boeing craft before they
land.
An interesting sidenote: This will be the first time the US has
tried to land a manned capsule on *land*, as opposed to an ocean
splashdown.
I'm sure they would.

As for on land landings, I'm sure they're sure they can do it given
the Soviets were doing so exclusively as far back as the early 1960s.
Lynn McGuire
2024-06-24 16:40:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
For those who do not know, this is a play on "The Cold Equations"
awesome incredibly sad short story:
https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/the-cold-equations/

Lynn
James Nicoll
2024-06-24 17:01:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
For those who do not know, this is a play on "The Cold Equations"
https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/the-cold-equations/
Alternatively, it's a terrible story about people with extremely
shitty pre-flight safety procedures.

https://reactormag.com/on-needless-cruelty-in-sf-tom-godwins-the-cold-equations/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
John Savard
2024-06-24 19:12:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lynn McGuire
For those who do not know, this is a play on "The Cold Equations"
https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/the-cold-equations/
Alternatively, it's a terrible story about people with extremely
shitty pre-flight safety procedures.
https://reactormag.com/on-needless-cruelty-in-sf-tom-godwins-the-cold-equations/
The story "The Cold Equations" took a valid assumption about the early
colonization of interstellar space - that resources would often be
critically limited, with little margin for safety - and added to it
some improbable factors in order to set up circumstances in which the
plot could happen. This is a fault that is shared by a great many
stories.

John Savard
Chris Buckley
2024-06-24 20:45:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
For those who do not know, this is a play on "The Cold Equations"
https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/the-cold-equations/
Alternatively, it's a terrible story about people with extremely
shitty pre-flight safety procedures.
https://reactormag.com/on-needless-cruelty-in-sf-tom-godwins-the-cold-equations/
In my opinion, James' article and the comments completely demolish the
claim that it's a "terrible story". The fact that an sf story written
over 70 years ago is memorable enough and had emotional impact enough
to warrant the article and more comments than I've seen for any other
of James' articles is remarkable.

I consider it an excellent *story*. It's absolutely unrealistic. So?
Most memorable stories are unrealistic. It could have been made much
more plausible with many more details about the emergency nature of
the preparation of the ship. That would have made a much worse story, IMO.

It works because it was so simple: the pilot, the girl, and space.
Just the unforgiving nature of space, and how it invokes our fears of
not being in control of things. We're upset at the situation with
nothing else to blame. Godwin did an terrific job at manipulating our
emotions. As I said, an excellent story.

Chris
Lynn McGuire
2024-06-24 21:32:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
For those who do not know, this is a play on "The Cold Equations"
https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/the-cold-equations/
Alternatively, it's a terrible story about people with extremely
shitty pre-flight safety procedures.
https://reactormag.com/on-needless-cruelty-in-sf-tom-godwins-the-cold-equations/
One of my uncles was the navigator-bombardier on a B-52 back in the
1970s and 1980s in Fort Worth, Texas. We were talking about refueling
one day and he mentioned that the KC-135 air tankers would fly with them
to the Bering Straits and give them every drop of fuel that they had.
Then the air tanker would ditch in the Bering Straits or the leading
edge of Russia as they ran out of fuel.

I was floored by that and he then said that was only enough fuel for
their B-52 to make it to Moscow to drop their hydrogen bombs. The eight
jet engines on the B-52 are very thirsty. They did not have enough fuel
to make back to even Alaska. Then he mentioned, they probably would not
make it to Moscow as there were not enough fighter jets to escort them
past the Russian interceptor jets on the other side of the Bering Straits.

The cold equations are very prevalent in today's society.

Lynn
Robert Woodward
2024-06-25 05:03:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
For those who do not know, this is a play on "The Cold Equations"
https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/the-cold-equations/
Alternatively, it's a terrible story about people with extremely
shitty pre-flight safety procedures.
https://reactormag.com/on-needless-cruelty-in-sf-tom-godwins-the-cold-equation
s/
Complacency can subvert excellently designed pre-flight safety
procedures. BTW, I came up with an interplanetary space drive
(non-Newtonian of course) that would be very mass sensitive (inspired by
the stutterwarp in GDW's roleplaying game _Traveller: 2300AD_, later
renamed _2300AD) and recalculations would be beyond the capability of
the shuttle's computer and sensor installation.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Mad Hamish
2024-06-26 03:24:10 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 22:03:27 -0700, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
For those who do not know, this is a play on "The Cold Equations"
https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/the-cold-equations/
Alternatively, it's a terrible story about people with extremely
shitty pre-flight safety procedures.
https://reactormag.com/on-needless-cruelty-in-sf-tom-godwins-the-cold-equation
s/
Complacency can subvert excellently designed pre-flight safety
procedures. BTW, I came up with an interplanetary space drive
(non-Newtonian of course) that would be very mass sensitive (inspired by
the stutterwarp in GDW's roleplaying game _Traveller: 2300AD_, later
renamed _2300AD) and recalculations would be beyond the capability of
the shuttle's computer and sensor installation.
Yes, but having a door that locks so that passengers can't just walk
into your shuttle seems like a fairly simple precaution without much
risk of problems from it
Dimensional Traveler
2024-06-26 05:37:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mad Hamish
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 22:03:27 -0700, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
For those who do not know, this is a play on "The Cold Equations"
https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/the-cold-equations/
Alternatively, it's a terrible story about people with extremely
shitty pre-flight safety procedures.
https://reactormag.com/on-needless-cruelty-in-sf-tom-godwins-the-cold-equation
s/
Complacency can subvert excellently designed pre-flight safety
procedures. BTW, I came up with an interplanetary space drive
(non-Newtonian of course) that would be very mass sensitive (inspired by
the stutterwarp in GDW's roleplaying game _Traveller: 2300AD_, later
renamed _2300AD) and recalculations would be beyond the capability of
the shuttle's computer and sensor installation.
Yes, but having a door that locks so that passengers can't just walk
into your shuttle seems like a fairly simple precaution without much
risk of problems from it
My immediate thought was "But it was written in the Golden Age when it
was just assumed that only those with an IQ higher than a potato's would
be allowed into space!"

Then reality drops a ton of potatoes on me.
--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.
Lynn McGuire
2024-06-26 19:12:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Mad Hamish
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 22:03:27 -0700, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
For those who do not know, this is a play on "The Cold Equations"
    https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/the-cold-equations/
Alternatively, it's a terrible story about people with extremely
shitty pre-flight safety procedures.
https://reactormag.com/on-needless-cruelty-in-sf-tom-godwins-the-cold-equation
s/
Complacency can subvert excellently designed pre-flight safety
procedures. BTW, I came up with an interplanetary space drive
(non-Newtonian of course) that would be very mass sensitive (inspired by
the stutterwarp in GDW's roleplaying game _Traveller: 2300AD_, later
renamed _2300AD) and recalculations would be beyond the capability of
the shuttle's computer and sensor installation.
Yes, but having a door that locks so that passengers can't just walk
into your shuttle seems like a fairly simple precaution without much
risk of problems from it
My immediate thought was "But it was written in the Golden Age when it
was just assumed that only those with an IQ higher than a potato's would
be allowed into space!"
Then reality drops a ton of potatoes on me.
Yeah, when the Space Elevator gets going, the masses will go.

Lynn
Jerry Brown
2024-06-27 16:44:27 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 22:37:23 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Mad Hamish
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 22:03:27 -0700, Robert Woodward
<snip>
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Mad Hamish
Yes, but having a door that locks so that passengers can't just walk
into your shuttle seems like a fairly simple precaution without much
risk of problems from it
My immediate thought was "But it was written in the Golden Age when it
was just assumed that only those with an IQ higher than a potato's would
be allowed into space!"
Then reality drops a ton of potatoes on me.
I recall one of Jack Williams' CT novels referring to the captain of a
ship handing over its keys (not sure if hatch, ignition or both).
--
Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)
James Nicoll
2024-06-27 17:05:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Brown
On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 22:37:23 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Mad Hamish
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 22:03:27 -0700, Robert Woodward
<snip>
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Mad Hamish
Yes, but having a door that locks so that passengers can't just walk
into your shuttle seems like a fairly simple precaution without much
risk of problems from it
My immediate thought was "But it was written in the Golden Age when it
was just assumed that only those with an IQ higher than a potato's would
be allowed into space!"
Then reality drops a ton of potatoes on me.
I recall one of Jack Williams' CT novels referring to the captain of a
ship handing over its keys (not sure if hatch, ignition or both).
Better than the Tom Corbett situation, where the lack of useful airlock
locks came up from time to time.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Cryptoengineer
2024-06-27 21:19:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Brown
On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 22:37:23 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Mad Hamish
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 22:03:27 -0700, Robert Woodward
<snip>
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Mad Hamish
Yes, but having a door that locks so that passengers can't just walk
into your shuttle seems like a fairly simple precaution without much
risk of problems from it
My immediate thought was "But it was written in the Golden Age when it
was just assumed that only those with an IQ higher than a potato's would
be allowed into space!"
Then reality drops a ton of potatoes on me.
I recall one of Jack Williams' CT novels referring to the captain of a
ship handing over its keys (not sure if hatch, ignition or both).
Apparently, US military vehicles such as tanks and jet aircraft don't
have keys - they are normally stored in secure areas, and lost
per-vehicle keys would provide an failure path in an emergency.

Every now and then, you hear about someone taking a tank on a joyride,
and its even happened to jets on occasion.

pt
Jay E. Morris
2024-06-28 00:31:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cryptoengineer
Apparently, US military vehicles such as tanks and jet aircraft don't
have keys - they are normally stored in secure areas, and lost
per-vehicle keys would provide an failure path in an emergency.
Can't speak for jets but armored vehicle hatches are padlocked closed.
Non armored (at least in my day) used a padlock and chain between the
steering wheel and another point. If the key is lost it just requires
cutting the padlock, not replacing the ignition lock. But if someone
wants to drive the tank off and run it into the MP station (Ft. Knox,
70s) they just need to bring the bolt cutters.
Scott Dorsey
2024-06-28 01:13:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay E. Morris
Post by Cryptoengineer
Apparently, US military vehicles such as tanks and jet aircraft don't
have keys - they are normally stored in secure areas, and lost
per-vehicle keys would provide an failure path in an emergency.
Can't speak for jets but armored vehicle hatches are padlocked closed.
Non armored (at least in my day) used a padlock and chain between the
steering wheel and another point. If the key is lost it just requires
cutting the padlock, not replacing the ignition lock. But if someone
wants to drive the tank off and run it into the MP station (Ft. Knox,
70s) they just need to bring the bolt cutters.
A former worker in our computer security group, after taking a lot of
the wrong kind of drugs, decided to take a ride in an APC through the
streets of Richmond, VA. A google search on "Richmond Tank Thing"
should show some of the video. Sadly he was not even one of the more
crazy people in his organization.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Lynn McGuire
2024-06-26 19:42:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
For those who do not know, this is a play on "The Cold Equations"
https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/the-cold-equations/
Alternatively, it's a terrible story about people with extremely
shitty pre-flight safety procedures.
https://reactormag.com/on-needless-cruelty-in-sf-tom-godwins-the-cold-equations/
There are so many stories about people sneaking on a ship that we have
created a word in the English language for them: Stowaways.

Lynn
Michael F. Stemper
2024-06-30 16:25:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
For those who do not know, this is a play on "The Cold Equations"
    https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/the-cold-equations/
Alternatively, it's a terrible story about people with extremely
shitty pre-flight safety procedures.
https://reactormag.com/on-needless-cruelty-in-sf-tom-godwins-the-cold-equations/
There are so many stories about people sneaking on a ship that we have created a word in the English language for them: Stowaways.
Did that term arise from *stories* about the concept? I was under the impression that
it came from real, physical people sneaking on board real, physical ships.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Galatians 3:28
Dimensional Traveler
2024-06-30 17:02:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
For those who do not know, this is a play on "The Cold Equations"
    https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/the-cold-equations/
Alternatively, it's a terrible story about people with extremely
shitty pre-flight safety procedures.
https://reactormag.com/on-needless-cruelty-in-sf-tom-godwins-the-cold-equations/
There are so many stories about people sneaking on a ship that we have
created a word in the English language for them: Stowaways.
Did that term arise from *stories* about the concept? I was under the impression that
it came from real, physical people sneaking on board real, physical ships.
I sense a *whoosh*....
--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.
Scott Dorsey
2024-06-30 17:39:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
For those who do not know, this is a play on "The Cold Equations"
    https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/the-cold-equations/
Alternatively, it's a terrible story about people with extremely
shitty pre-flight safety procedures.
https://reactormag.com/on-needless-cruelty-in-sf-tom-godwins-the-cold-equations/
There are so many stories about people sneaking on a ship that we have
created a word in the English language for them: Stowaways.
Did that term arise from *stories* about the concept? I was under the impression that
it came from real, physical people sneaking on board real, physical ships.
I sense a *whoosh*....
In order to talk about real physical people you have to be able to tell
their stories. This is why we make up words, to be able to tell these stories.
A good discussion of this process can be found in "How the Alphabet Was Made"
from Kipling's _Just So Stories_.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Joy Beeson
2024-06-26 23:54:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Alternatively, it's a terrible story about people with extremely
shitty pre-flight safety procedures.
"Poverty" and "shitty" are, of course, exact synonyms.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
James Nicoll
2024-06-27 13:22:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joy Beeson
Post by James Nicoll
Alternatively, it's a terrible story about people with extremely
shitty pre-flight safety procedures.
"Poverty" and "shitty" are, of course, exact synonyms.
I have no idea what prompted that sentence. Does poverty precude
looking in the only closet of a small vessel to check for a stow
away whose mass will surely doom the mission? Are people in possession
of starships generally unable to afford locks?
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Michael F. Stemper
2024-06-27 17:23:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Joy Beeson
Post by James Nicoll
Alternatively, it's a terrible story about people with extremely
shitty pre-flight safety procedures.
"Poverty" and "shitty" are, of course, exact synonyms.
I have no idea what prompted that sentence.
I was afraid that it was just me.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Psalm 94:3-6
Don
2024-06-27 18:56:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Joy Beeson
Post by James Nicoll
Alternatively, it's a terrible story about people with extremely
shitty pre-flight safety procedures.
"Poverty" and "shitty" are, of course, exact synonyms.
I have no idea what prompted that sentence.
I was afraid that it was just me.
The poverty of dung flung into your eyes stinks! Perhaps "poor
pre-flight safety procedures" is phrased better?

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.
BCFD 36
2024-06-27 17:56:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Joy Beeson
Post by James Nicoll
Alternatively, it's a terrible story about people with extremely
shitty pre-flight safety procedures.
"Poverty" and "shitty" are, of course, exact synonyms.
I have no idea what prompted that sentence. Does poverty precude
looking in the only closet of a small vessel to check for a stow
away whose mass will surely doom the mission? Are people in possession
of starships generally unable to afford locks?
That wasn't clear to me either. Now I don't feel so alone.
--
----------------

Dave Scruggs
Senior Software Engineer - Lockheed Martin, et. al (mostly Retired)
Captain - Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Board of Directors - Boulder Creek Fire Protection District (What was I
thinking?)
Lynn McGuire
2024-06-24 16:43:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
Did you notice that the two astronauts that they sent up in the Boeing
Starliner are in their late 50s ? In other words, two old people.

Luckily, the SpaceX Dragon can hold up to six people.

Lynn
Mad Hamish
2024-06-26 03:24:56 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 11:43:45 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
Did you notice that the two astronauts that they sent up in the Boeing
Starliner are in their late 50s ? In other words, two old people.
I object to calling people in their 50s old.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Luckily, the SpaceX Dragon can hold up to six people.
John Savard
2024-06-26 14:05:49 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 26 Jun 2024 13:24:56 +1000, Mad Hamish
Post by Mad Hamish
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 11:43:45 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Did you notice that the two astronauts that they sent up in the Boeing
Starliner are in their late 50s ? In other words, two old people.
I object to calling people in their 50s old.
People in their 50s are middle-aged, not elderly, let alone senescent.

However, they are old enough that their capacity for vigorous physical
activity is likely to be somewhat diminished compared to that of an
individual in his or her 30s. This, of course, varies greatly between
individuals, as those who exercise regularly and maintain fitness
certainly can be in good shape in their 50s, even if by then those who
were largely sedentary will have lost much of the vigor of youth.

So, if your mental picture of an astronaut comes from the Mercury,
Gemini, and Apollo programs, so that when you think "astronaut" you
think "test pilot", well, 50 is kind of old for _that_. By the time
the Space Shuttle came along, though, a 50-year-old mission
specialist, as opposed to a 50-year-old pilot astronaut, would be no
big deal.

John Savard
Lynn McGuire
2024-06-26 19:13:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mad Hamish
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 11:43:45 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
Did you notice that the two astronauts that they sent up in the Boeing
Starliner are in their late 50s ? In other words, two old people.
I object to calling people in their 50s old.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Luckily, the SpaceX Dragon can hold up to six people.
I am 63 for a couple of more days, I am OLD.

Lynn
The Horny Goat
2024-07-10 18:46:19 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 26 Jun 2024 14:13:33 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Mad Hamish
I object to calling people in their 50s old.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Luckily, the SpaceX Dragon can hold up to six people.
I am 63 for a couple of more days, I am OLD.
I must be positively decrepit being 5 years older than you...
William Hyde
2024-07-11 00:20:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 26 Jun 2024 14:13:33 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Mad Hamish
I object to calling people in their 50s old.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Luckily, the SpaceX Dragon can hold up to six people.
I am 63 for a couple of more days, I am OLD.
I must be positively decrepit being 5 years older than you...
Kids these days!

William Hyde
Paul S Person
2024-07-11 16:01:15 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 20:20:50 -0400, William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 26 Jun 2024 14:13:33 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Mad Hamish
I object to calling people in their 50s old.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Luckily, the SpaceX Dragon can hold up to six people.
I am 63 for a couple of more days, I am OLD.
I must be positively decrepit being 5 years older than you...
Kids these days!
Indeed.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"
Lynn McGuire
2024-07-11 00:52:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 26 Jun 2024 14:13:33 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Mad Hamish
I object to calling people in their 50s old.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Luckily, the SpaceX Dragon can hold up to six people.
I am 63 for a couple of more days, I am OLD.
I must be positively decrepit being 5 years older than you...
My 85 year old father just bought a new Mercedes.

My parents just had their 65th wedding anniversary.

Mom will be 83 in a couple of weeks.

Lynn
Bobbie Sellers
2024-08-09 00:57:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 26 Jun 2024 14:13:33 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Mad Hamish
I object to calling people in their 50s old.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Luckily, the SpaceX Dragon can hold up to six people.
I am 63 for a couple of more days, I am OLD.
I must be positively decrepit being 5 years older than you...
People of 50 are mere children, generally having raised
their own children already but maybe they are still sending
those to higher education.

I write only from the viewpoint of 87 yoa.
Auto censoring political comments.

bliss
--
b l i s s - S F 4 e v e r at D S L E x t r e m e dot com
John Savard
2024-06-24 19:18:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
As Rudyard Kipling wrote, in "The Secret of the Machines":

But remember, please, the Law by which we live,
We are not built to comprehend a lie,
We can neither love nor pity nor forgive.
If you make a slip in handling us you die!

The _equations_ are cold as ice, and will ever be. But _humans_ can be
warm, and design adequate safety margins into their systems; which
they usually do, when it is at all possible for them to afford doing
so.

John Savard
BCFD 36
2024-06-24 20:05:36 UTC
Permalink
On 6/24/24 12:18, John Savard wrote:
[stuff deleted]
Post by John Savard
The _equations_ are cold as ice, and will ever be. But _humans_ can be
warm, and design adequate safety margins into their systems; which
they usually do, when it is at all possible for them to afford doing
so.
John Savard
The operative word above is "usually". Sometimes, there are those who
decide that the margin for safety is just too high and too expensive and
the margin is reduced. Sometimes reduced to zero. And it is rarely the
engineers who do this.
--
----------------

Dave Scruggs
Senior Software Engineer - Lockheed Martin, et. al (mostly Retired)
Captain - Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Board of Directors - Boulder Creek Fire Protection District (What was I
thinking?)
Scott Dorsey
2024-06-24 23:09:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by BCFD 36
The operative word above is "usually". Sometimes, there are those who
decide that the margin for safety is just too high and too expensive and
the margin is reduced. Sometimes reduced to zero. And it is rarely the
engineers who do this.
The optimist sees the glass half-full.

The pessimist sees it half-empty.

The engineer sees a 50% margin against overflow.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Tony Nance
2024-06-24 23:41:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by BCFD 36
The operative word above is "usually". Sometimes, there are those who
decide that the margin for safety is just too high and too expensive and
the margin is reduced. Sometimes reduced to zero. And it is rarely the
engineers who do this.
The optimist sees the glass half-full.
The pessimist sees it half-empty.
The engineer sees a 50% margin against overflow.
The physicist sees the glass is full, 50% water and 50% air.
Lynn McGuire
2024-06-25 00:01:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Nance
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by BCFD 36
The operative word above is "usually". Sometimes, there are those who
decide that the margin for safety is just too high and too expensive and
the margin is reduced. Sometimes reduced to zero. And it is rarely the
engineers who do this.
The optimist sees the glass half-full.
The pessimist sees it half-empty.
The engineer sees a 50% margin against overflow.
The physicist sees the glass is full, 50% water and 50% air.
The chemist also sees the glass is full.

Lynn
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-06-25 04:33:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Tony Nance
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by BCFD 36
The operative word above is "usually". Sometimes, there are those who
decide that the margin for safety is just too high and too expensive and
the margin is reduced. Sometimes reduced to zero. And it is rarely the
engineers who do this.
The optimist sees the glass half-full.
The pessimist sees it half-empty.
The engineer sees a 50% margin against overflow.
The physicist sees the glass is full, 50% water and 50% air.
The chemist also sees the glass is full.
Lynn
Your Brother-In-Law: Water! Aintcha got no beer?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
John Savard
2024-06-25 02:55:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by BCFD 36
And it is rarely the
engineers who do this.
Although sometimes they're pressured to put a different hat on in
order to sign on when others do it.

Yes, Morton Thiokol, I'm looking at you and remembering the Challenger
disaster.

John Savard
Charles Packer
2024-06-25 07:35:22 UTC
Permalink
And it is rarely the engineers who do this.
Although sometimes they're pressured to put a different hat on in order
to sign on when others do it.
Yes, Morton Thiokol, I'm looking at you and remembering the Challenger
disaster.
John Savard
A famous example of engineering foresight is the resolution of
the Xenon poisoning incident that spoiled the startup of the first
industrial-scale nuclear reactor.

https://www.atomicarchive.com/history/manhattan-project/p4s36.html
Don
2024-06-25 03:00:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
This passage from "The Purloined Letter" (Poe) leads me to believe
Sherlock Holmes' predecessor, C. Auguste Dupin, prefers warm equations:

As poet and mathematician, he would reason well; as mere
mathematician, he could not have reasoned at all ...

I dispute the availability, and thus the value, of that reason which
is cultivated in any especial form other than the abstractly
logical. I dispute, in particular, the reason educed by mathematical
study. The mathematics are the science of form and quantity;
mathematical reasoning is merely logic applied to observation upon
form and quantity. The great error lies in supposing that even the
truths of what is called pure algebra, are abstract or general
truths. And this error is so egregious that I am confounded at the
universality with which it has been received. Mathematical axioms
are not axioms of general truth. What is true of relation-of form
and quantity-is often grossly false in regard to morals, for
example. In this latter science it is very usually untrue that the
aggregated parts are equal to the whole. In chemistry also the axiom
fails. In the consideration of motive it fails; for two motives,
each of a given value, have not, necessarily, a value when united,
equal to the sum of their values apart. There are numerous other
mathematical truths which are only truths within the limits of
relation. But the mathematician argues, from his finite truths,
through habit, as if they were of an absolutely general
applicability-as the world indeed imagines them to be. Bryant, in
his very learned 'Mythology,' mentions an analogous source of error,
when he says that 'although the Pagan fables are not believed, yet
we forget ourselves continually, and make inferences from them as
existing realities.' With the algebraists, however, who are Pagans
themselves, the 'Pagan fables' are believed, and the inferences are
made, not so much through lapse of memory, as through an
unaccountable addling of the brains. In short, I never yet
encountered the mere mathematician who could be trusted out of equal
roots, or one who did not clandestinely hold it as a point of his
faith that x2+px was absolutely and uq. Say to one of these
gentlemen, by way of experiment, if you please, that you believe
occasions may occur where x2+px is not altogether equal to q, and,
having made him understand what you mean, get out of his reach as
speedily as convenient, for, beyond doubt, he will endeavor to
knock you down.

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.
Lynn McGuire
2024-06-28 02:08:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
The real question is, there are 7 or 8 people in those tin cans. Is
there enough food, water, air, and diapers for all of them for another
month ? Or is SpaceX going to have to send an emergency supply ship ?

Can the Boeing Starliner drop without a crew ? I suspect so.

Lynn
Dimensional Traveler
2024-06-28 02:22:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
The real question is, there are 7 or 8 people in those tin cans.  Is
there enough food, water, air, and diapers for all of them for another
month ?  Or is SpaceX going to have to send an emergency supply ship ?
Can the Boeing Starliner drop without a crew ?  I suspect so.
That's kind of a dumb question. OF COURSE the Starliner can be dropped.
Undock it, do an EVA to push it a bit and it will eventually "land"
somewhere on the planet.

Now, a controlled drop to a specific area.....
--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.
Paul S Person
2024-06-28 15:46:36 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 19:22:49 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
The real question is, there are 7 or 8 people in those tin cans.  Is
there enough food, water, air, and diapers for all of them for another
month ?  Or is SpaceX going to have to send an emergency supply ship ?
Can the Boeing Starliner drop without a crew ?  I suspect so.
That's kind of a dumb question. OF COURSE the Starliner can be dropped.
Undock it, do an EVA to push it a bit and it will eventually "land"
somewhere on the planet.
Now, a controlled drop to a specific area.....
Perhaps a small explosive charge with a timer would be advisable, to
keep it from coming down in one piece. Ideally, it would come down in
zero pieces, providing a nice show as each teeny-tiny splinter burns
up on re-entry.

At last! A Boeing crash that doesn't kill anybody or do any collateral
damage!
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"
Jay E. Morris
2024-06-28 22:48:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 19:22:49 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
The real question is, there are 7 or 8 people in those tin cans.  Is
there enough food, water, air, and diapers for all of them for another
month ?  Or is SpaceX going to have to send an emergency supply ship ?
Can the Boeing Starliner drop without a crew ?  I suspect so.
That's kind of a dumb question. OF COURSE the Starliner can be dropped.
Undock it, do an EVA to push it a bit and it will eventually "land"
somewhere on the planet.
Now, a controlled drop to a specific area.....
Perhaps a small explosive charge with a timer would be advisable, to
keep it from coming down in one piece. Ideally, it would come down in
zero pieces, providing a nice show as each teeny-tiny splinter burns
up on re-entry.
At last! A Boeing crash that doesn't kill anybody or do any collateral
damage!
The problem is with the thrusters on the service module which was never
meant to survive re-entry[1]. The mission plan included a possibility
that the astronauts could remain up to 45 days, and that has been
extended to 90. As there is nothing wrong with the crew module they
could leave now but the capsule is being used as a test bed. On the
ground fixes are being worked, then tested by the astronauts.

They have fixed four out of the five thrusters that failed.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/28/science/nasa-boeing-starliner-mission-90-days-scn/index.html

[1]But as we've seen lately that does not mean that it actually will.
Dimensional Traveler
2024-06-29 01:35:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 19:22:49 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
The real question is, there are 7 or 8 people in those tin cans.  Is
there enough food, water, air, and diapers for all of them for another
month ?  Or is SpaceX going to have to send an emergency supply ship ?
Can the Boeing Starliner drop without a crew ?  I suspect so.
That's kind of a dumb question. OF COURSE the Starliner can be dropped.
Undock it, do an EVA to push it a bit and it will eventually "land"
somewhere on the planet.
Now, a controlled drop to a specific area.....
Perhaps a small explosive charge with a timer would be advisable, to
keep it from coming down in one piece. Ideally, it would come down in
zero pieces, providing a nice show as each teeny-tiny splinter burns
up on re-entry.
It would take more than a small explosive charge to do that.
--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.
Cryptoengineer
2024-06-29 02:02:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 19:22:49 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
The real question is, there are 7 or 8 people in those tin cans.  Is
there enough food, water, air, and diapers for all of them for another
month ?  Or is SpaceX going to have to send an emergency supply ship ?
Can the Boeing Starliner drop without a crew ?  I suspect so.
That's kind of a dumb question.  OF COURSE the Starliner can be dropped.
  Undock it, do an EVA to push it a bit and it will eventually "land"
somewhere on the planet.
Now, a controlled drop to a specific area.....
Perhaps a small explosive charge with a timer would be advisable, to
keep it from coming down in one piece. Ideally, it would come down in
zero pieces, providing a nice show as each teeny-tiny splinter burns
up on re-entry.
It would take more than a small explosive charge to do that.
Starliner has already made one (sort of) successful unmanned trip
to the ISS, and returned safely. It is completely capable of returning
unmanned, no explosives needed.

But yes, on that trip they also had thruster problems.

pt
Paul S Person
2024-06-29 15:37:52 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 28 Jun 2024 22:02:41 -0400, Cryptoengineer
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 19:22:49 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
The real question is, there are 7 or 8 people in those tin cans.  Is
there enough food, water, air, and diapers for all of them for another
month ?  Or is SpaceX going to have to send an emergency supply ship ?
Can the Boeing Starliner drop without a crew ?  I suspect so.
That's kind of a dumb question.  OF COURSE the Starliner can be dropped.
  Undock it, do an EVA to push it a bit and it will eventually "land"
somewhere on the planet.
Now, a controlled drop to a specific area.....
Perhaps a small explosive charge with a timer would be advisable, to
keep it from coming down in one piece. Ideally, it would come down in
zero pieces, providing a nice show as each teeny-tiny splinter burns
up on re-entry.
It would take more than a small explosive charge to do that.
Starliner has already made one (sort of) successful unmanned trip
to the ISS, and returned safely. It is completely capable of returning
unmanned, no explosives needed.
But yes, on that trip they also had thruster problems.
The Boeing Solution to problems:
-- capture the regulators
-- full speed ahead!

There was a time when, around here, Boeing was the plane to fly.

But then they moved to corporate offices to Chicago.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"
Dimensional Traveler
2024-06-30 00:25:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 28 Jun 2024 22:02:41 -0400, Cryptoengineer
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 19:22:49 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
The real question is, there are 7 or 8 people in those tin cans.  Is
there enough food, water, air, and diapers for all of them for another
month ?  Or is SpaceX going to have to send an emergency supply ship ?
Can the Boeing Starliner drop without a crew ?  I suspect so.
That's kind of a dumb question.  OF COURSE the Starliner can be dropped.
  Undock it, do an EVA to push it a bit and it will eventually "land"
somewhere on the planet.
Now, a controlled drop to a specific area.....
Perhaps a small explosive charge with a timer would be advisable, to
keep it from coming down in one piece. Ideally, it would come down in
zero pieces, providing a nice show as each teeny-tiny splinter burns
up on re-entry.
It would take more than a small explosive charge to do that.
Starliner has already made one (sort of) successful unmanned trip
to the ISS, and returned safely. It is completely capable of returning
unmanned, no explosives needed.
But yes, on that trip they also had thruster problems.
-- capture the regulators
-- full speed ahead!
There was a time when, around here, Boeing was the plane to fly.
But then they moved to corporate offices to Chicago.
You would think all that wind would make it easier to fly....
--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.
The Horny Goat
2024-07-10 21:36:11 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 29 Jun 2024 08:37:52 -0700, Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
-- capture the regulators
-- full speed ahead!
There was a time when, around here, Boeing was the plane to fly.
But then they moved to corporate offices to Chicago.
In terms of corporate liveability (particularly for people accustomed
to the sort of perks the corporate offices normally offer) Seattle is
much nicer than Chicago.

Of course Boeing Field is about 25-30 min by I-5 north of downtown
Seattle...
Scott Lurndal
2024-07-10 21:59:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Sat, 29 Jun 2024 08:37:52 -0700, Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
-- capture the regulators
-- full speed ahead!
There was a time when, around here, Boeing was the plane to fly.
But then they moved to corporate offices to Chicago.
In terms of corporate liveability (particularly for people accustomed
to the sort of perks the corporate offices normally offer) Seattle is
much nicer than Chicago.
They didn't stay long in Chicago, they wasted another billion dollars
moving to northern virginia/DC area.

Pointless b-school bullshit has destroyed a formerly excellent
engineering company.
Paul S Person
2024-07-11 16:02:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by The Horny Goat
On Sat, 29 Jun 2024 08:37:52 -0700, Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
-- capture the regulators
-- full speed ahead!
There was a time when, around here, Boeing was the plane to fly.
But then they moved to corporate offices to Chicago.
In terms of corporate liveability (particularly for people accustomed
to the sort of perks the corporate offices normally offer) Seattle is
much nicer than Chicago.
They didn't stay long in Chicago, they wasted another billion dollars
moving to northern virginia/DC area.
I suppose that made it easier to capture their regulators ...
Post by Scott Lurndal
Pointless b-school bullshit has destroyed a formerly excellent
engineering company.
Just another field that MBAs really aren't up to handling.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"
Robert Woodward
2024-07-11 04:43:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Sat, 29 Jun 2024 08:37:52 -0700, Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
-- capture the regulators
-- full speed ahead!
There was a time when, around here, Boeing was the plane to fly.
But then they moved to corporate offices to Chicago.
In terms of corporate liveability (particularly for people accustomed
to the sort of perks the corporate offices normally offer) Seattle is
much nicer than Chicago.
Of course Boeing Field is about 25-30 min by I-5 north of downtown
Seattle...
I suspect you are thinking of Paine Field which is adjacent to the
Everett plant. The airport usually referred to as Boeing Field, is
formally the King County International Airport and it is about 5 minutes
south of downtown Seattle on I-5.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-------------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Lynn McGuire
2024-08-09 00:35:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 28 Jun 2024 22:02:41 -0400, Cryptoengineer
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 19:22:49 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
The real question is, there are 7 or 8 people in those tin cans.  Is
there enough food, water, air, and diapers for all of them for another
month ?  Or is SpaceX going to have to send an emergency supply ship ?
Can the Boeing Starliner drop without a crew ?  I suspect so.
That's kind of a dumb question.  OF COURSE the Starliner can be dropped.
  Undock it, do an EVA to push it a bit and it will eventually "land"
somewhere on the planet.
Now, a controlled drop to a specific area.....
Perhaps a small explosive charge with a timer would be advisable, to
keep it from coming down in one piece. Ideally, it would come down in
zero pieces, providing a nice show as each teeny-tiny splinter burns
up on re-entry.
It would take more than a small explosive charge to do that.
Starliner has already made one (sort of) successful unmanned trip
to the ISS, and returned safely. It is completely capable of returning
unmanned, no explosives needed.
But yes, on that trip they also had thruster problems.
-- capture the regulators
-- full speed ahead!
There was a time when, around here, Boeing was the plane to fly.
But then they moved to corporate offices to Chicago.
Anytime any engineering business names an accountant as the CEO, write
it off. Boeing did so several years ago. The accountants will drive
the costs to zero no matter what happens to the employees.

Lynn
Gary R. Schmidt
2024-08-09 05:29:59 UTC
Permalink
On 09/08/2024 10:35, Lynn McGuire wrote:
[SNIP]>
Post by Lynn McGuire
Anytime any engineering business names an accountant as the CEO, write
it off.  Boeing did so several years ago.  The accountants will drive
the costs to zero no matter what happens to the employees.
Or to the product.

Cheers,
Gary B-)
Lynn McGuire
2024-08-09 20:44:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary R. Schmidt
[SNIP]>
Post by Lynn McGuire
Anytime any engineering business names an accountant as the CEO, write
it off.  Boeing did so several years ago.  The accountants will drive
the costs to zero no matter what happens to the employees.
Or to the product.
    Cheers,
        Gary    B-)
True dat. Each is equally damaged.

Lynn
D
2024-08-10 09:13:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Gary R. Schmidt
[SNIP]>
Anytime any engineering business names an accountant as the CEO, write it
off.  Boeing did so several years ago.  The accountants will drive the
costs to zero no matter what happens to the employees.
Or to the product.
    Cheers,
        Gary    B-)
True dat. Each is equally damaged.
Lynn
This is the truth!

Another thing I've seen during my career, is that when
the CEO is sales focused, the companies have prospered, and when the CEO
is _too technology oriented_, the companies have not done well.

Scott Dorsey
2024-08-09 16:57:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Anytime any engineering business names an accountant as the CEO, write
it off. Boeing did so several years ago. The accountants will drive
the costs to zero no matter what happens to the employees.
When I was a kid, Boeing, Lockheed, and Douglas all had presidents who
were certified to fly their company's products and sometimes did.

This is no longer the case; it is as if General Motors was run by someone
who couldn't drive.

Note that Air Tractor's president can fly his company's products. Not
sure about Cessna or Piper anymore.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Lynn McGuire
2024-08-09 20:45:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Lynn McGuire
Anytime any engineering business names an accountant as the CEO, write
it off. Boeing did so several years ago. The accountants will drive
the costs to zero no matter what happens to the employees.
When I was a kid, Boeing, Lockheed, and Douglas all had presidents who
were certified to fly their company's products and sometimes did.
This is no longer the case; it is as if General Motors was run by someone
who couldn't drive.
Note that Air Tractor's president can fly his company's products. Not
sure about Cessna or Piper anymore.
--scott
Hughes Aircraft too.

Lynn
Bobbie Sellers
2024-08-10 01:38:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Lynn McGuire
Anytime any engineering business names an accountant as the CEO, write
it off.  Boeing did so several years ago.  The accountants will drive
the costs to zero no matter what happens to the employees.
When I was a kid, Boeing, Lockheed, and Douglas all had presidents who
were certified to fly their company's products and sometimes did.
This is no longer the case; it is as if General Motors was run by someone
who couldn't drive.
Note that Air Tractor's president can fly his company's products.  Not
sure about Cessna or Piper anymore.
--scott
Hughes Aircraft too.
Lynn
Commodore Business machines was a business employing
competent and inventive engineers but the guy to took it
over was a financier and he took it into bankruptcy in 1994
to get his money back. Doing so he killed a good but simple
GUI Interface though you can get some Amigas today, paying as
alway a premium, as well as emulators for Window and Linux.
But I learned enough about computers from AmigaOS to move
to Linux without much pain but the bean counters have killed
a lot of great things.

bliss
--
b l i s s - S F 4 e v e r at D S L E x t r e m e dot com
Lynn McGuire
2024-08-10 03:00:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Lynn McGuire
Anytime any engineering business names an accountant as the CEO, write
it off.  Boeing did so several years ago.  The accountants will drive
the costs to zero no matter what happens to the employees.
When I was a kid, Boeing, Lockheed, and Douglas all had presidents who
were certified to fly their company's products and sometimes did.
This is no longer the case; it is as if General Motors was run by someone
who couldn't drive.
Note that Air Tractor's president can fly his company's products.  Not
sure about Cessna or Piper anymore.
--scott
Hughes Aircraft too.
Lynn
    Commodore Business machines was a business employing
competent and inventive engineers but the guy to took it
over was a financier and he took it into bankruptcy in 1994
to get his money back.  Doing so he killed a good but simple
GUI Interface though you can get some Amigas today, paying as
alway a premium, as well as emulators for Window and Linux.
But I learned enough about computers from AmigaOS to move
to Linux without much pain but the bean counters have killed
a lot of great things.
    bliss
"True Stories From A Former Car Dealer #15: Ignition Switches" by: Jerry
Reynolds

https://www.carpro.com/true-stories/true-stories-from-a-former-car-dealer-15-ignition-switches

"For the quality summit, we decided to look at Ford Focus ignition
switches. It was a major problem for customers of this new car and a
real headache for the dealers. Focus owners would put their key in the
ignition switch, but it would not come out. That meant owners of Focus
had to leave the key in their car making it susceptible to theft or call
their Ford dealer."

"From there, we went to the Wixom Assembly Plant where the Thunderbird
was made, and gathered in a large conference room to specifically
dissect the Focus ignition switches. Someone handed each of us an
ignition switch complete with key so we could examine them. We were
shown why the switches were failing at such a high rate. It was really
quite interesting, and easy to see why the failure rate was so high.
They collected those back from us and handed each of us the new and
improved switch from a different supplier."

"We could see and feel the new switches were heavier and seemed better
constructed. At this point, I am feeling pretty good about what we were
being told. They opened the floor for questions, and one dealer asked
how much more the new switches were than the old ones. The answer was
fifty cents."

"The next question was from me. I wanted to know when the new switches
started being used. The answer I got left me speechless for a moment. We
were told there were "5000 of the old switches left, and as soon as
those ran out, they would switch to the new ones.""

Lynn
Jay E. Morris
2024-08-09 20:52:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Lynn McGuire
Anytime any engineering business names an accountant as the CEO, write
it off. Boeing did so several years ago. The accountants will drive
the costs to zero no matter what happens to the employees.
When I was a kid, Boeing, Lockheed, and Douglas all had presidents who
were certified to fly their company's products and sometimes did.
This is no longer the case; it is as if General Motors was run by someone
who couldn't drive.
Note that Air Tractor's president can fly his company's products. Not
sure about Cessna or Piper anymore.
--scott
Boeing's new CEO, Robert “Kelly” Ortberg. He may not be able to fly them
but at least he's not an accountant, mechanical engineering degree. His
office will be in Seattle factory, not Chicago.

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/08/new-boeing-ceo-kelly-ortberg.html
Jay E. Morris
2024-07-01 00:52:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 19:22:49 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
The real question is, there are 7 or 8 people in those tin cans.  Is
there enough food, water, air, and diapers for all of them for another
month ?  Or is SpaceX going to have to send an emergency supply ship ?
Can the Boeing Starliner drop without a crew ?  I suspect so.
That's kind of a dumb question. OF COURSE the Starliner can be dropped.
Undock it, do an EVA to push it a bit and it will eventually "land"
somewhere on the planet.
Now, a controlled drop to a specific area.....
Perhaps a small explosive charge with a timer would be advisable, to
keep it from coming down in one piece. Ideally, it would come down in
zero pieces, providing a nice show as each teeny-tiny splinter burns
up on re-entry.
At last! A Boeing crash that doesn't kill anybody or do any collateral
damage!
The problem is with the thrusters on the service module which was never
meant to survive re-entry[1]. The mission plan included a possibility
that the astronauts could remain up to 45 days, and that has been
extended to 90. As there is nothing wrong with the crew module they
could leave now but the capsule is being used as a test bed. On the
ground fixes are being worked, then tested by the astronauts.

They have fixed four out of the five thrusters that failed.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/28/science/nasa-boeing-starliner-mission-90-days-scn/index.html
Jay E. Morris
2024-07-01 00:53:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay E. Morris
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 19:22:49 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
The real question is, there are 7 or 8 people in those tin cans.  Is
there enough food, water, air, and diapers for all of them for another
month ?  Or is SpaceX going to have to send an emergency supply ship ?
Can the Boeing Starliner drop without a crew ?  I suspect so.
That's kind of a dumb question.  OF COURSE the Starliner can be dropped.
  Undock it, do an EVA to push it a bit and it will eventually "land"
somewhere on the planet.
Now, a controlled drop to a specific area.....
Perhaps a small explosive charge with a timer would be advisable, to
keep it from coming down in one piece. Ideally, it would come down in
zero pieces, providing a nice show as each teeny-tiny splinter burns
up on re-entry.
At last! A Boeing crash that doesn't kill anybody or do any collateral
damage!
The problem is with the thrusters on the service module which was never
meant to survive re-entry[1]. The mission plan included a possibility
that the astronauts could remain up to 45 days, and that has been
extended to 90. As there is nothing wrong with the crew module they
could leave now but the capsule is being used as a test bed. On the
ground fixes are being worked, then tested by the astronauts.
They have fixed four out of the five thrusters that failed.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/28/science/nasa-boeing-starliner-mission-90-days-scn/index.html
And I have no idea how that escaped into the wild again.
Robert Carnegie
2024-07-01 15:37:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
But meanwhile:

"Musk's SpaceX hired to destroy ISS space station"

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cnl02jl5pzno>

One of many unfortunate headlines on this
I hope separate story in various places.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-08-06 03:28:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Things are looking worse:

https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/08/nasa-likely-to-significantly-delay-the-launch-of-crew-9-due-to-starliner-issues/

Software struggles

NASA has quietly been studying the possibility of crew
returning in a Dragon for more than a month. As NASA and
Boeing engineers have yet to identify a root cause of the
thruster failure, the possibility of Wilmore and Williams
returning on a Dragon spacecraft has increased in the last
10 days. NASA has consistently said that 'crew safety' will
be its No. 1 priority in deciding how to proceed.

The Crew 9 delay is relevant to the Starliner dilemma for
a couple of reasons. One, it gives NASA more time to determine
the flight-worthiness of Starliner. However, there is also
another surprising reason for the delay--the need to update
Starliner's flight software. Three separate, well-placed
sources have confirmed to Ars that the current flight
software on board Starliner cannot perform an automated
undocking from the space station and entry into Earth's
atmosphere.

At first blush, this seems absurd. After all, Boeing's
Orbital Flight Test 2 mission in May 2022 was a fully
automated test of the Starliner vehicle. During this mission,
the spacecraft flew up to the space station without crew
on board and then returned to Earth six days later. Although
the 2022 flight test was completed by a different Starliner
vehicle, it clearly demonstrated the ability of the program's
flight software to autonomously dock and return to Earth.
Boeing did not respond to a media query about why this
capability was removed for the crew flight test.

"At first blush, this seems absurd."

Well, yes. Second blush as well.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Paul S Person
2024-08-06 16:01:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Two astronauts have been stuck at the ISS for an extra two weeks,
so far, because their ride has flat tires, and it's not a crisis,
and nobody has had to volunteer to step out the airlock.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/08/nasa-likely-to-significantly-delay-the-launch-of-crew-9-due-to-starliner-issues/
Software struggles
NASA has quietly been studying the possibility of crew
returning in a Dragon for more than a month. As NASA and
Boeing engineers have yet to identify a root cause of the
thruster failure, the possibility of Wilmore and Williams
returning on a Dragon spacecraft has increased in the last
10 days. NASA has consistently said that 'crew safety' will
be its No. 1 priority in deciding how to proceed.
The Crew 9 delay is relevant to the Starliner dilemma for
a couple of reasons. One, it gives NASA more time to determine
the flight-worthiness of Starliner. However, there is also
another surprising reason for the delay--the need to update
Starliner's flight software. Three separate, well-placed
sources have confirmed to Ars that the current flight
software on board Starliner cannot perform an automated
undocking from the space station and entry into Earth's
atmosphere.
At first blush, this seems absurd. After all, Boeing's
Orbital Flight Test 2 mission in May 2022 was a fully
automated test of the Starliner vehicle. During this mission,
the spacecraft flew up to the space station without crew
on board and then returned to Earth six days later. Although
the 2022 flight test was completed by a different Starliner
vehicle, it clearly demonstrated the ability of the program's
flight software to autonomously dock and return to Earth.
Boeing did not respond to a media query about why this
capability was removed for the crew flight test.
"At first blush, this seems absurd."
Well, yes. Second blush as well.
Some MBA probably determined that it wasn't needed and so shouldn't be
included, at least at the present price point.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"
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