[OT] Can We Live Without Hexavalent Chrome?

[John Savard]

I saw this video on YouTube

about an impending ban - about which manufacturers were given seven
years' warning - on the use of hexavalent chrome in motor vehicles. It
can still be used for aerospace applications, though.

According to the video, this is a serious problem. For motorcycles,
though, they could just paint all the surfaces. But wheel rims get
scratched when changing tires. Fine; just make them, and them only,
out of more expensive stainless steel, and it's not too bad.

But the real problem is that neither stainless steel nor nickel
plating nor trivalent chrome is a real substitute for "hard chrome"
which is what is needed for ball bearings and some suspension
components!

I would have thought even electric cars need shock absorbers and
springs and the like. Is this the end of the motor vehicle? While it's
true, as the video states, that manufacturers like to make just one
version of their products for the whole world, if Europe's standards
are as completely absurd and impractical as the video claims, I would
think that this would be the kind of situatiion that leads to
companies either making the more expensive version only for Europe, or
even giving up on making cars for Europe if they have no idea of how
they could possibly make them.

But perhaps the video is exaggerating the problem, and there are
reasonable workarounds which it did not mentioin?

John Savard

[John Savard]

On Tue, 05 Mar 2024 22:03:53 -0700, John Savard

Post by John Savard
But perhaps the video is exaggerating the problem, and there are
reasonable workarounds which it did not mentioin?

A brief web search turned up multiple advertisements for substitutes
such as a trivalent chromium chromate process, nickel-tungsten alloys,
and nickel-zinc alloys, as proposed replacements for hard chrome, so
apparently there are indeed substitutes, even if they are somewhat
more expensive, ready and waiting to be used.

John Savard

[Mad Hamish]

On Tue, 05 Mar 2024 22:10:38 -0700, John Savard

Post by John Savard
On Tue, 05 Mar 2024 22:03:53 -0700, John Savard

Post by John Savard
But perhaps the video is exaggerating the problem, and there are
reasonable workarounds which it did not mentioin?

A brief web search turned up multiple advertisements for substitutes
such as a trivalent chromium chromate process, nickel-tungsten alloys,
and nickel-zinc alloys, as proposed replacements for hard chrome, so
apparently there are indeed substitutes, even if they are somewhat
more expensive, ready and waiting to be used.

Maybe you should do the search before making the alarmist post?

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by John Savard
A brief web search turned up multiple advertisements for substitutes
such as a trivalent chromium chromate process, nickel-tungsten alloys,
and nickel-zinc alloys, as proposed replacements for hard chrome, so
apparently there are indeed substitutes, even if they are somewhat
more expensive, ready and waiting to be used.

Trivalent chromium is cheap spongy crap. It looks like genuine hard
chrome, but it isn't hard, it doesn't wear, and it doesn't provide as
good protection against corrosion.

My 1983 car has trim with real chromium 6 and it's all still bright and
shiny, unlike much of the rest of the car. My 1987 car from the same
German manufacturer has trim plated with chromium 3 and it's all brown
and yuccky. They both looked great when they were new, but they did not
wear.

Nickel-tungsten is hard as hell all the way through and it's no fun to
machine, but if you can spend the money to machine it properly it will
give nice results. There are some nickel-silicon alloys that people have
tried using for piston rings too. Dunno about nickel-zinc.
--scott

[Cryptoengineer]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by John Savard
A brief web search turned up multiple advertisements for substitutes
such as a trivalent chromium chromate process, nickel-tungsten alloys,
and nickel-zinc alloys, as proposed replacements for hard chrome, so
apparently there are indeed substitutes, even if they are somewhat
more expensive, ready and waiting to be used.

Trivalent chromium is cheap spongy crap. It looks like genuine hard
chrome, but it isn't hard, it doesn't wear, and it doesn't provide as
good protection against corrosion.
My 1983 car has trim with real chromium 6 and it's all still bright and
shiny, unlike much of the rest of the car. My 1987 car from the same
German manufacturer has trim plated with chromium 3 and it's all brown
and yuccky. They both looked great when they were new, but they did not
wear.
Nickel-tungsten is hard as hell all the way through and it's no fun to
machine, but if you can spend the money to machine it properly it will
give nice results. There are some nickel-silicon alloys that people have
tried using for piston rings too. Dunno about nickel-zinc.
--scott

I'm starting to get the feeling that while cosmetic chrome bits may
become uneconomic to manufacture, there are (more expensive)
solutions for non cosmetic bits such as bearings and gun barrels.

I note that the ban is EU only, the US still plates Chrome 6, but
the regulations are onerous.

pt

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by Cryptoengineer
I'm starting to get the feeling that while cosmetic chrome bits may
become uneconomic to manufacture, there are (more expensive)
solutions for non cosmetic bits such as bearings and gun barrels.

Most gun barrels aren't chrome plated, just chrome alloys, and those are a
little more difficult under the new rules but still just as good.

Post by Cryptoengineer
I note that the ban is EU only, the US still plates Chrome 6, but
the regulations are onerous.

Not in California, and there's only one place left here in Virginia.
Automotive stuff is mostly plated in Mexico.
--scott

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by John Savard
I saw this video on YouTube

Is it science fiction? If not, wrong group.

[James Nicoll]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by John Savard
I saw this video on YouTube

Is it science fiction? If not, wrong group.

One can save ever so much time by kill filing Savard. It's all going to
boil down to "and this is why we need women slaves" or "this is why we
need to kill brown people."

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by John Savard
But the real problem is that neither stainless steel nor nickel
plating nor trivalent chrome is a real substitute for "hard chrome"
which is what is needed for ball bearings and some suspension
components!

Chrome 6 has been avoided as much as possible for the past few decades and
regulations in most non-China countries has made it very difficult for
manufacturers to use it. As a consequence, almost everywhere it has been
replaced with some other material, and almost invariably this has resulted
in shorter product lifespans.

This is probably reasonable for disposable consumer products, but it's not
reasonable for products intended to last a lifetime, if any of those even
still exist.

Post by John Savard
I would have thought even electric cars need shock absorbers and
springs and the like. Is this the end of the motor vehicle? While it's
true, as the video states, that manufacturers like to make just one
version of their products for the whole world, if Europe's standards
are as completely absurd and impractical as the video claims, I would
think that this would be the kind of situatiion that leads to
companies either making the more expensive version only for Europe, or
even giving up on making cars for Europe if they have no idea of how
they could possibly make them.

Europe's new standards are absurd but no more so than California's have
been for ages. It is not the end of the motor vehicle. But it IS the end
of body chrome that lasts for decades and journal bearings that last for
hundreds of thousands of miles.

Chromium steel isn't going away... chrome alloys are still fine. But hard
chrome body parts, cylinder rings, and pump rotors are going away. And
the parts will be made on lathes with softer beds because there won't be
any hard chrome lathe beds anymore. It will all keep working, it just
won't work as long.

Post by John Savard
But perhaps the video is exaggerating the problem, and there are
reasonable workarounds which it did not mentioin?

Depends on what you consider reasonable. And it's going to hurt the printing
industry, which uses hard chrome rollers to resist abrasion from paper running
at high speed (On the subject of written SF).

Hard chrome is good stuff, and the European RoHS standards in general are
silly and badly thought-out. The move to lead-free solder has had the exact
opposite effect that was intended since it has resulted in shorter lifespans
for consumer products and more waste going into landfills, while still
allowing exceptions for the major sources of lead pollution. I cannot see
the chromium ban being much better. But it is not the end of the world.
--scott

--scott

[Mad Hamish]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by John Savard
But the real problem is that neither stainless steel nor nickel
plating nor trivalent chrome is a real substitute for "hard chrome"
which is what is needed for ball bearings and some suspension
components!

Chrome 6 has been avoided as much as possible for the past few decades and
regulations in most non-China countries has made it very difficult for
manufacturers to use it. As a consequence, almost everywhere it has been
replaced with some other material, and almost invariably this has resulted
in shorter product lifespans.
This is probably reasonable for disposable consumer products, but it's not
reasonable for products intended to last a lifetime, if any of those even
still exist.

In this case the driver seems to be lengthening lifespans...

[Cryptoengineer]

Post by John Savard
I saw this video on YouTube
http://youtu.be/whFyI-_yK8U
about an impending ban - about which manufacturers were given seven
years' warning - on the use of hexavalent chrome in motor vehicles. It
can still be used for aerospace applications, though.
According to the video, this is a serious problem. For motorcycles,
though, they could just paint all the surfaces. But wheel rims get
scratched when changing tires. Fine; just make them, and them only,
out of more expensive stainless steel, and it's not too bad.
But the real problem is that neither stainless steel nor nickel
plating nor trivalent chrome is a real substitute for "hard chrome"
which is what is needed for ball bearings and some suspension
components!
I would have thought even electric cars need shock absorbers and
springs and the like. Is this the end of the motor vehicle? While it's
true, as the video states, that manufacturers like to make just one
version of their products for the whole world, if Europe's standards
are as completely absurd and impractical as the video claims, I would
think that this would be the kind of situatiion that leads to
companies either making the more expensive version only for Europe, or
even giving up on making cars for Europe if they have no idea of how
they could possibly make them.
But perhaps the video is exaggerating the problem, and there are
reasonable workarounds which it did not mentioin?

Interesting. I look at my car, and the only chromed Items I can
see are the door handles, and a thin strip bordering the side
windows - and even the former are matt black in newer models.

The wheels have some more, but they are hidden behind black plastic
aerocovers, so I don't care.

The main issues I see are for hard chrome for bearings, etc.

pt

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by Cryptoengineer
Interesting. I look at my car, and the only chromed Items I can
see are the door handles, and a thin strip bordering the side
windows - and even the former are matt black in newer models.
The wheels have some more, but they are hidden behind black plastic
aerocovers, so I don't care.

Those are all chrome 3. Chrome 3 has taken over for cosmetic parts years
ago. In thirty years they'll all be brown and flaked off because chrome 3
does not last.

Post by Cryptoengineer
The main issues I see are for hard chrome for bearings, etc.

Lathe beds! Motion picture projector gates!
--scott

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Cryptoengineer
Interesting. I look at my car, and the only chromed Items I can
see are the door handles, and a thin strip bordering the side
windows - and even the former are matt black in newer models.
The wheels have some more, but they are hidden behind black plastic
aerocovers, so I don't care.

Those are all chrome 3. Chrome 3 has taken over for cosmetic parts years
ago. In thirty years they'll all be brown and flaked off because chrome 3
does not last.

Post by Cryptoengineer
The main issues I see are for hard chrome for bearings, etc.

Lathe beds! Motion picture projector gates!

For the two motion picture projectors remaining in service?

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Cryptoengineer
Interesting. I look at my car, and the only chromed Items I can
see are the door handles, and a thin strip bordering the side
windows - and even the former are matt black in newer models.
The wheels have some more, but they are hidden behind black plastic
aerocovers, so I don't care.

Those are all chrome 3. Chrome 3 has taken over for cosmetic parts years
ago. In thirty years they'll all be brown and flaked off because chrome 3
does not last.

Post by Cryptoengineer
The main issues I see are for hard chrome for bearings, etc.

Lathe beds! Motion picture projector gates!

For the two motion picture projectors remaining in service?

Hey, I am doing what I can to make this relevant to science fiction. But if
you ever want to see 2001 the way it's intended to be seen, you want hard
chrome.
--scott

[Alan]

Post by John Savard
I saw this video on YouTube

And stop right there.

[Charles Packer]

Post by Alan

Post by John Savard
I saw this video on YouTube

And stop right there.

But wait, there's more!

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/15/world/asia/cat-chemicals-fukuyama-
japan.html?unlocked_article_code=1.dU0.QwZC.uPllAcFnmsPK&smid=url-share

Shortened:
https://tinyurl.com/4z8sxyfv

Evidently this hit the wires 3 or 4 days ago.