Discussion:
Third Artist Syndrome in interplanetary adventure stories
(too old to reply)
James Nicoll
2008-11-02 17:39:32 UTC
Permalink
I am going to quote Jo Walton on Third Artist Syndrome because
she said it better than I would:

"SF is becoming the work of the third artist. The first artist goes out
and paints from life. The second artist copies the first artist. The
third artist copies the second artist. (I've usually seen this analogy
applies to fantasy, with Tolkien as the first artist.) The first artist
put things in because there were there, or in the case of SF, because
they were new cool speculation. The second artist put them in because
they were trying to get close to the first. The third artist put them
in because heck, that's what you put in. By the time you get to the
third artist, using things like FTL and uploading yourself and aliens
isn't speculating or asking "what if", it's playing with furniture in
a doll's house. Going back to where we actually are and starting again,
with the techniques but not the tropes of the genre, is trying to become
a new first artist."

And some examples of the doll's house furnitire that I see
all the time in SF set in the Solar System are:

* Early and relatively fast space development. Examples include Sheffield's
Post-Great War series, where the spacers are numerous and rich enough to
rebel against Earth by the 2070s, and Varley's Red Thunder setting.

[One thing that seems obvious from the last fifty years is that development
cycles in space exploitation research are slow compared to R&D for things
like computers]


* Implausibly good rockets, where high accelerations can be maintained
for days or weeks. Sometimes this is merely implausibly good mundane
technology (some kind of fusion drive) and more rarely some sort of
magical mystery drive (as in Blish's Welcome to Mars or Varley recent
Earth People All Suck series).


* Despite the above, many of the settings will have people who customarily
spend hundreds or thousands of kilometers per second getting around worry
about the kilometers per second it costs to get off a terrestrial planet
(Yes, JEP complained about this long before me).

* A focus on local escape velocities over the costs of transfer orbits
within the Solar System, where an author thinks that just because a main
belt rock has a low escape velocity, that puts it closer in terms of delta
vee to Earth orbit than Earth itself or other potential sources.

* Overlooking local escape velocities due a focus on a particular
local resource. This is mainly the idea that Jupiter would be a good
place to get hydrogen, although I can name at least one book where they
want to get ice from Saturn's rings.

[Well, two and as much as I like "The Martian Way", it was dumb there
too]

[The last two look opposed but are two reflections of the same recurring
theme: the author did not do the math]

* High crew/cargo mass ratios. Honestly, if you don't have passengers,
I am not sure you need any crew at all. We already have automated Progress
cargo rockets servicing the ISS and the long term trend in conventional
shipping is to reduce human head count per ton of cargo shipped.

* Unitary governments across the solar system. Aside from Australia,
which is almost an island, we don't even have unitery governments on
single continents. This isn't to say we may not see them but why is the
alternative so rare?


* A perception that the Earth, the largest terrestrial planet, is poor
in resources.

* A perception that the Earth, the home of the human race, will lack for
educated useful people in the future.

* A perception that Earth, the home of the human race, will not be a
dominant market for a long time to come (This is not set in the Solar
System but while reading Regenesis I noticed how tiny Union's population
is. Cyteen has millions of people and the various star stations hundreds
of thousands. New Zealand should be more of a power than Union).

* A curious tendency for technology that works in space not to work on
Earth. Fusion drives that provide gigawatts per kilogram will not be
adapted to address terrestrial energy issues.

* No grasp of how long minimum energy orbits from the Kuiper Belt take.

* No idea how long it would take to terraform a planet. Interestingly,
I think there's a correlation between refusing to accept an anthropogenic
element to terrestrial climate change and believing that terraforming
Venus in a few decades is just a matter of spreading some algae in the
upper atmosphere.


What else am I missing?

There is a parallel discussion on my LJ account:


http://james-nicoll.livejournal.com/1470522.html



[I thought of some more]



* No grasp of how long minimum energy orbits from the Kuiper Belt take.



* No idea how long it would take to terraform a planet. Interestingly, I think there's a correlation between refusing to accept an anthropogenic element to terrestrial climate change and believing that terraforming Venus in a few decades is just a matter of spreading some algae in the upper atmosphere.
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
W. Citoan
2008-11-02 18:42:24 UTC
Permalink
I am going to quote Jo Walton on Third Artist Syndrome because she
"SF is becoming the work of the third artist. The first artist goes
out and paints from life. The second artist copies the first artist.
The third artist copies the second artist. (I've usually seen this
analogy applies to fantasy, with Tolkien as the first artist.) The
first artist put things in because there were there, or in the case
of SF, because they were new cool speculation. The second artist put
them in because they were trying to get close to the first. The third
artist put them in because heck, that's what you put in. By the time
you get to the third artist, using things like FTL and uploading
yourself and aliens isn't speculating or asking "what if", it's
playing with furniture in a doll's house. Going back to where we
actually are and starting again, with the techniques but not the
tropes of the genre, is trying to become a new first artist."
This seems to be overstating the originality of many early works. I
doubt there is a straightforward progression from 1st -> 2nd -> 3rd,
but that all three have coincided together over most of the genre's
lifetime.

It also seems to be putting the emphasis on the props. Speculation does
not have to be limited to technology.
* Unitary governments across the solar system. Aside from Australia,
which is almost an island, we don't even have unitery governments on
single continents. This isn't to say we may not see them but why is the
alternative so rare?
There used to be quite a few stories with multiple governments in the
Solar System. Those seemed to revolve around the Cold War powers.
Perhaps it has something to do with globalization and movements like the
EU? A perception that the Earth is moving to a single unified entity?
* A perception that the Earth, the home of the human race, will lack for
educated useful people in the future.
Hmm, don't recall seeing that frequently, but I've probably just missed
those...
* A perception that Earth, the home of the human race, will not be a
dominant market for a long time to come (This is not set in the Solar
System but while reading Regenesis I noticed how tiny Union's population
is. Cyteen has millions of people and the various star stations hundreds
of thousands. New Zealand should be more of a power than Union).
While I agree that it takes time for a colony to surpass the homeland,
I'm not sure that is simply a population issue. Population is going to
factor into it, but some of the largest empires in Earth history have
had smaller populations that those they dominated.

- W. Citoan
--
It is by the fortune of God that, in this country, we have three benefits:
freedom of speech, freedom of thought, and the wisdom never to use either.
-- Mark Twain
David Cowie
2008-11-02 20:14:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by W. Citoan
While I agree that it takes time for a colony to surpass the homeland,
I'm not sure that is simply a population issue.  Population is going to
factor into it, but some of the largest empires in Earth history have
had smaller populations that those they dominated.
"Whatever happens, we have got
The Maxim gun, and they have not. "

It is possible that Earth, the home of the human race, will fall
behind in weapons technology, but it's probably not the way to bet.
W. Citoan
2008-11-02 22:29:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Cowie
Post by W. Citoan
While I agree that it takes time for a colony to surpass the homeland,
I'm not sure that is simply a population issue. Population is going to
factor into it, but some of the largest empires in Earth history have
had smaller populations that those they dominated.
"Whatever happens, we have got
The Maxim gun, and they have not. "
It is possible that Earth, the home of the human race, will fall
behind in weapons technology, but it's probably not the way to bet.
Earth being the home of the human race has a much to do with it as
England being the home of Anglo-Saxon culture did with America's
industrial base surpassing England's.

- W. Citoan
--
It is by the fortune of God that, in this country, we have three benefits:
freedom of speech, freedom of thought, and the wisdom never to use either.
-- Mark Twain
Gene
2008-11-02 23:31:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by W. Citoan
Earth being the home of the human race has a much to do with it as
England being the home of Anglo-Saxon culture did with America's
industrial base surpassing England's.
No, because humans are adapted to live on North America, but not on Neptune.
W. Citoan
2008-11-03 02:00:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene
Post by W. Citoan
Earth being the home of the human race has a much to do with it as
England being the home of Anglo-Saxon culture did with America's
industrial base surpassing England's.
No, because humans are adapted to live on North America, but not on Neptune.
It disingenuous to clip all the context in attempt to make an irrelevant
comment look relevant.

- W. Citoan
--
It is by the fortune of God that, in this country, we have three benefits:
freedom of speech, freedom of thought, and the wisdom never to use either.
-- Mark Twain
Wayne Throop
2008-11-03 04:01:18 UTC
Permalink
: "W. Citoan" <***@NOSPAM-yahoo.com>
: It disingenuous to clip all the context in attempt to make an irrelevant
: comment look relevant.

Neither disingenuous, nor irrelevent. The analogy is flawed,
so the conclusion that space colonies could outstrip earth based
on that analogy is flawed.


Wayne Throop ***@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
W. Citoan
2008-11-03 23:04:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne Throop
: It disingenuous to clip all the context in attempt to make an
: irrelevant comment look relevant.
Neither disingenuous, nor irrelevent. The analogy is flawed, so the
conclusion that space colonies could outstrip earth based on that
analogy is flawed.
Given the ability to affectively colonize an Earth equivalent planet,
what is intrinsic about humans being from Earth that guarantees Earth
will remain dominate in weapon's technology?

If your argument is that the given isn't possible, than that in no way
supports the claim regarding the intrinsic nature of humans being from
Earth and to claim so is disingenuous. Neptune is irrelevant.

- W. Citoan
--
I thought I had a great idea today, but it never really took off. In fact,
it didn't even get on the runway. I guess you could say it exploded in the
hangar.
-- Bill Watterson from Calvin & Hobbes
David Johnston
2008-11-03 23:15:24 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 03 Nov 2008 23:04:56 GMT, "W. Citoan"
Post by W. Citoan
Post by Wayne Throop
: It disingenuous to clip all the context in attempt to make an
: irrelevant comment look relevant.
Neither disingenuous, nor irrelevent. The analogy is flawed, so the
conclusion that space colonies could outstrip earth based on that
analogy is flawed.
Given the ability to affectively colonize an Earth equivalent planet,
There are no Earth equivalent planets in the Solar System.
W. Citoan
2008-11-04 00:25:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
On Mon, 03 Nov 2008 23:04:56 GMT, "W. Citoan"
Post by W. Citoan
: all the context in attempt to make an irrelevant comment look
: relevant.
Neither disingenuous, nor irrelevent. The analogy is flawed, so
the conclusion that space colonies could outstrip earth based on
that analogy is flawed.
Given the ability to affectively colonize an Earth equivalent planet,
There are no Earth equivalent planets in the Solar System.
And that is pertinent how? SF is limited to our solar system?

- W. Citoan
--
I thought I had a great idea today, but it never really took off. In fact,
it didn't even get on the runway. I guess you could say it exploded in the
hangar.
-- Bill Watterson from Calvin & Hobbes
Wayne Throop
2008-11-04 00:57:09 UTC
Permalink
: "W. Citoan" <***@NOSPAM-yahoo.com>
: And that is pertinent how? SF is limited to our solar system?

The OP of the thread sez

And some examples of the doll's house furnitire that I see all the
time in SF set in the Solar System are:

so it's quite reasonable to take the thread topic to be,
oddly enough, "SF set in the Solar System".


Wayne Throop ***@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
W. Citoan
2008-11-04 01:05:17 UTC
Permalink
: SF is limited to our solar system?
The OP of the thread sez
And some examples of the doll's house furnitire that I see all
so it's quite reasonable to take the thread topic to be, oddly
enough, "SF set in the Solar System".
Under this specific bullet, however, the OP had "This is not set in the
Solar System but while reading Regenesis I noticed" so it's also quite
reasonable to take the sub-thread topic to be, oddly enough, "all SF".

- W. Citoan
--
I thought I had a great idea today, but it never really took off. In fact,
it didn't even get on the runway. I guess you could say it exploded in the
hangar.
-- Bill Watterson from Calvin & Hobbes
Damien Sullivan
2008-11-04 01:00:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by W. Citoan
Post by David Johnston
There are no Earth equivalent planets in the Solar System.
And that is pertinent how? SF is limited to our solar system?
You'll note that the thread title mentions "interplanetary adventure
stories", not "interstellar", and James in the OP explicitly noted
Cherryh's books as an exception ("not set in the Solar System").

-xx- Damien X-)
W. Citoan
2008-11-04 01:20:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Damien Sullivan
Post by W. Citoan
Post by David Johnston
There are no Earth equivalent planets in the Solar System.
And that is pertinent how? SF is limited to our solar system?
You'll note that the thread title mentions "interplanetary adventure
stories", not "interstellar", and James in the OP explicitly noted
Cherryh's books as an exception ("not set in the Solar System").
And the exception is under the bullet being discussed.

- W. Citoan
--
I thought I had a great idea today, but it never really took off. In fact,
it didn't even get on the runway. I guess you could say it exploded in the
hangar.
-- Bill Watterson from Calvin & Hobbes
Gene
2008-11-04 01:30:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by W. Citoan
And the exception is under the bullet being discussed.
I thought we were discussing the Solar System, hence my comment about
Neptune.
Dan Goodman
2008-11-04 22:09:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by W. Citoan
Post by David Johnston
On Mon, 03 Nov 2008 23:04:56 GMT, "W. Citoan"
Post by W. Citoan
: all the context in attempt to make an irrelevant comment look
: relevant.
Neither disingenuous, nor irrelevent. The analogy is flawed, so
the conclusion that space colonies could outstrip earth based on
that analogy is flawed.
Given the ability to affectively colonize an Earth equivalent planet,
There are no Earth equivalent planets in the Solar System.
And that is pertinent how? SF is limited to our solar system?
_Interplanetary_ sf is. See the subject line you used: "Re: Third
Artist Syndrome in interplanetary adventure stories"
--
Dan Goodman
.sig under reconstruction
David DeLaney
2008-11-03 23:37:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by W. Citoan
Given the ability to affectively colonize an Earth equivalent planet,
There are no Earth equivalent planets in the Solar System.
Not true; there's one.

Dave "but not more than one" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from ***@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Mike Schilling
2008-11-04 02:57:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by David Johnston
Post by W. Citoan
Given the ability to affectively colonize an Earth equivalent planet,
There are no Earth equivalent planets in the Solar System.
Not true; there's one.
The heavily polluted one whose climate is starting to spin out of
control? You're an easy grader.
Wayne Throop
2008-11-03 23:19:22 UTC
Permalink
:: The analogy is flawed, so the conclusion that space colonies could
:: outstrip earth based on that analogy is flawed.

: "W. Citoan" <***@NOSPAM-yahoo.com>
: Given the ability to affectively colonize an Earth equivalent planet,
: what is intrinsic about humans being from Earth that guarantees Earth
: will remain dominate in weapon's technology?

Nothing. Except that the analogy is still flawed. Mind you, I'm
not supposing it's impossible for a space colony to outpace earth.
But to argue that it would (or maybe even only could) by analogy to the
settlement of north america is a flawed analogy, on several grounds.

: If your argument is that the given isn't possible, than that in no way
: supports the claim regarding the intrinsic nature of humans being from
: Earth and to claim so is disingenuous. Neptune is irrelevant.

There was some claim about some intrinsic quality of earth people?
I'm unaware of such a claim.


Wayne Throop ***@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
W. Citoan
2008-11-04 01:15:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne Throop
:: The analogy is flawed, so the conclusion that space colonies could
:: outstrip earth based on that analogy is flawed.
: affectively colonize an Earth equivalent planet, what is intrinsic
: about humans being from Earth that guarantees Earth will remain
: dominate in weapon's technology?
Nothing. Except that the analogy is still flawed. Mind you, I'm not
supposing it's impossible for a space colony to outpace earth. But
to argue that it would (or maybe even only could) by analogy to the
settlement of north america is a flawed analogy, on several grounds.
I didn't say it would. I said that history shows being the homeland is
not a sufficient condition to avoid being surpassed. That hardly the
same as claiming being the homeland dooms one to being surpassed.

If you would like to state how the analogy fails, feel free. But if
it's only going to be regarding colonies in our solar system, don't
bother because I never made that claim.
Post by Wayne Throop
: If your argument is that the given isn't possible, than that in no
: way supports the claim regarding the intrinsic nature of humans
: being from Earth and to claim so is disingenuous. Neptune is
: irrelevant.
There was some claim about some intrinsic quality of earth people?
I'm unaware of such a claim.
Not people, the earth. The only basis given for the Earth not being
surpassed was that it was the home of the human race. Not based on
resources, population, or other.

- W. Citoan
--
I thought I had a great idea today, but it never really took off. In fact,
it didn't even get on the runway. I guess you could say it exploded in the
hangar.
-- Bill Watterson from Calvin & Hobbes
Gene
2008-11-04 01:37:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by W. Citoan
I didn't say it would. I said that history shows being the homeland is
not a sufficient condition to avoid being surpassed. That hardly the
* same as claiming being the homeland dooms one to being surpassed.

I don't see how history has much relevance to interstellar colonization,
unless you are assuming a science fiction setting where Earthlike planets are
readily attainable by some means including at least FTL travel.
Wayne Throop
2008-11-04 02:07:49 UTC
Permalink
: "W. Citoan" <***@NOSPAM-yahoo.com>
: If you would like to state how the analogy fails, feel free.

It fails because the habitability and accessability of the target
isn't analogous. If you handwave instantaneous portals a-la
Tunnel in the Sky, and preformed (or terraformed and long long
timeframes), then fine, but James (the OP) is fairly famous for
pining for the fjords of somewhat more realistic SF.

Again, that doesn't mean "it can't happen", merely that it's
not unreaonable to point out that many of the places it *does*
happen in SF are somewhat unlikely-seeming, and the analogy to
north american settlement doesn't really carry the day for
very many of them, if any, and doubly not in the "reasonably
plausible with pre-Singularity tech and less-than-geological
timeframes" category.

In short, the analogy isn't insight-provoking in the context of the thread.


Wayne Throop ***@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Damien Sullivan
2008-11-03 02:41:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by W. Citoan
Post by David Cowie
Post by W. Citoan
I'm not sure that is simply a population issue. Population is going to
factor into it, but some of the largest empires in Earth history have
had smaller populations that those they dominated.
It is possible that Earth, the home of the human race, will fall
behind in weapons technology, but it's probably not the way to bet.
Earth being the home of the human race has a much to do with it as
England being the home of Anglo-Saxon culture did with America's
industrial base surpassing England's.
England was able to dominate larger populations, using a technological
advantage gained via advantages in parallel development. The US was
able to surpass England, despite equivalent technology, primarily
because of larger size and population. Neither seems particularly
applicable to Earth, which by default should dominate in population,
economy, and thus development for the forseeable future, short of AIs
being created and controlled on Earth but replicating like bacteria in
space.

-xx- Damien X-)
Rebecca Rice
2008-11-03 05:46:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Damien Sullivan
Post by W. Citoan
Post by David Cowie
Post by W. Citoan
I'm not sure that is simply a population issue. Population is going to
factor into it, but some of the largest empires in Earth history have
had smaller populations that those they dominated.
It is possible that Earth, the home of the human race, will fall
behind in weapons technology, but it's probably not the way to bet.
Earth being the home of the human race has a much to do with it as
England being the home of Anglo-Saxon culture did with America's
industrial base surpassing England's.
England was able to dominate larger populations, using a technological
advantage gained via advantages in parallel development. The US was
able to surpass England, despite equivalent technology, primarily
because of larger size and population. Neither seems particularly
applicable to Earth, which by default should dominate in population,
economy, and thus development for the forseeable future, short of AIs
being created and controlled on Earth but replicating like bacteria in
space.
Well... I will point out that in the Alliance/Union universe
(not that I am saying the economics made any sense!), the
reason for the development of Union and Alliance as
political powers at all seems to have been a simple matter
of distance and time. According to the handy chronology
linked to on CJ's site, the Downers were discovered in 2093.
The message got to Earth in 2105. Any message back from
Earth wouldn't get to Pell until 2117, assuming an
instantaneous decision on Earth. That's a long time to wait
for instructions, especially if the Downers hadn't been
fairly peaceful primitives.

And then, Reseune managed to develop both rejuv and tape,
both of which are highly useful in creating a society, and
something that Earth doesn't really want to be deprived of.

Rebecca
W. Citoan
2008-11-03 23:12:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Damien Sullivan
Post by W. Citoan
Post by David Cowie
Post by W. Citoan
I'm not sure that is simply a population issue. Population is
going to factor into it, but some of the largest empires in Earth
history have had smaller populations that those they dominated.
It is possible that Earth, the home of the human race, will fall
behind in weapons technology, but it's probably not the way to bet.
Earth being the home of the human race has a much to do with it as
England being the home of Anglo-Saxon culture did with America's
industrial base surpassing England's.
England was able to dominate larger populations, using a
technological advantage gained via advantages in parallel
development. The US was able to surpass England, despite equivalent
technology, primarily because of larger size and population.
In other words, it is not simply a population issue...
Post by Damien Sullivan
Neither seems particularly applicable to Earth, which by default
should dominate in population, economy, and thus development for the
forseeable future, short of AIs being created and controlled on Earth
but replicating like bacteria in space.
SF has already spawned a number of other scenarios including disasters
and wars. I'm sure people can come up with others as well.

- W. Citoan
--
I thought I had a great idea today, but it never really took off. In fact,
it didn't even get on the runway. I guess you could say it exploded in the
hangar.
-- Bill Watterson from Calvin & Hobbes
Damien Sullivan
2008-11-04 01:01:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by W. Citoan
Post by Damien Sullivan
England was able to dominate larger populations, using a
technological advantage gained via advantages in parallel
development. The US was able to surpass England, despite equivalent
technology, primarily because of larger size and population.
In other words, it is not simply a population issue...
Yes, but the factors that make it not a population issue are unlikely to
apply to the favor of Earth's colonies.

-xx- Damien X-)
Dorothy J Heydt
2008-11-03 00:09:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Cowie
Post by W. Citoan
While I agree that it takes time for a colony to surpass the homeland,
I'm not sure that is simply a population issue.  Population is going to
factor into it, but some of the largest empires in Earth history have
had smaller populations that those they dominated.
"Whatever happens, we have got
The Maxim gun, and they have not. "
I seem to recall an earlier version, s/Maxim gun/arquebus.


Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
***@kithrup.com
Michael Stemper
2008-11-04 18:40:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Cowie
Post by W. Citoan
While I agree that it takes time for a colony to surpass the homeland,
I'm not sure that is simply a population issue. =A0Population is going to
factor into it, but some of the largest empires in Earth history have
had smaller populations that those they dominated.
"Whatever happens, we have got
The Maxim gun, and they have not. "
It is possible that Earth, the home of the human race, will fall
behind in weapons technology, but it's probably not the way to bet.
Norman Spinrad showed how Earth's head start could combine with a huge
travel-time lag, could lead to us permanently having a technological
advantage over the colonies. I believe the story was "Outward Bound".
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
Damien Sullivan
2008-11-05 04:30:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Stemper
Norman Spinrad showed how Earth's head start could combine with a huge
travel-time lag, could lead to us permanently having a technological
advantage over the colonies. I believe the story was "Outward Bound".
Bujold's Earth is cute. It has poor wormhole topology and isn't
unified, so isn't a major military power. It is nonethless the most
populous, richest, and most technologically advanced planet in the
Nexus, or at least tied for advancement with Beta Colony.

Also the "largest", *as well as* most populous. Odd.

-xx- Damien X-)
Dan Goodman
2008-11-05 05:50:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Damien Sullivan
Post by Michael Stemper
Norman Spinrad showed how Earth's head start could combine with a
huge travel-time lag, could lead to us permanently having a
technological advantage over the colonies. I believe the story was
"Outward Bound".
Bujold's Earth is cute. It has poor wormhole topology and isn't
unified, so isn't a major military power. It is nonethless the most
populous, richest, and most technologically advanced planet in the
Nexus, or at least tied for advancement with Beta Colony.
Also the "largest", *as well as* most populous. Odd.
However, its genetic technology seems to be behind that of Beta,
Jackson's Whole, and Cetaganda.
--
Dan Goodman
.sig under reconstruction
Jesper Lauridsen
2008-11-18 21:43:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Goodman
Post by Damien Sullivan
Bujold's Earth is cute. It has poor wormhole topology and isn't
unified, so isn't a major military power. It is nonethless the most
populous, richest, and most technologically advanced planet in the
Nexus, or at least tied for advancement with Beta Colony.
Also the "largest", *as well as* most populous. Odd.
However, its genetic technology seems to be behind that of Beta,
Jackson's Whole, and Cetaganda.
Is there any text evidence for that? I don't recall anything in the
books about it. It certainly isn't as focused as Cetaganda or as
ruthless as Jackson's Whole, but that isn't the same as less advanced.
Dan Goodman
2008-11-02 21:28:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by W. Citoan
I am going to quote Jo Walton on Third Artist Syndrome because she
"SF is becoming the work of the third artist. The first artist goes
out and paints from life. The second artist copies the first
artist. The third artist copies the second artist. (I've usually
seen this analogy applies to fantasy, with Tolkien as the first
artist.) The first artist put things in because there were there,
or in the case of SF, because they were new cool speculation. The
second artist put them in because they were trying to get close to
the first. The third artist put them in because heck, that's what
you put in. By the time you get to the third artist, using things
like FTL and uploading yourself and aliens isn't speculating or
asking "what if", it's playing with furniture in a doll's house.
Going back to where we actually are and starting again, with the
techniques but not the tropes of the genre, is trying to become a
new first artist."
This seems to be overstating the originality of many early works. I
doubt there is a straightforward progression from 1st -> 2nd -> 3rd,
but that all three have coincided together over most of the genre's
lifetime.
It also seems to be putting the emphasis on the props. Speculation
does not have to be limited to technology.
* Unitary governments across the solar system. Aside from
Australia, which is almost an island, we don't even have unitery
governments on single continents. This isn't to say we may not see
them but why is the alternative so rare?
There used to be quite a few stories with multiple governments in the
Solar System. Those seemed to revolve around the Cold War powers.
Perhaps it has something to do with globalization and movements like
the EU? A perception that the Earth is moving to a single unified
entity?
* A perception that the Earth, the home of the human race, will
lack for educated useful people in the future.
Hmm, don't recall seeing that frequently, but I've probably just
missed those...
* A perception that Earth, the home of the human race, will not be
a dominant market for a long time to come (This is not set in the
Solar System but while reading Regenesis I noticed how tiny
Union's population is. Cyteen has millions of people and the
various star stations hundreds of thousands. New Zealand should be
more of a power than Union).
While I agree that it takes time for a colony to surpass the homeland,
I'm not sure that is simply a population issue. Population is going
to factor into it, but some of the largest empires in Earth history
have had smaller populations that those they dominated.
However, there's a tendency for power to move to where the population
is. Highland Scots conquer Lowlands; power moves to Lowlands.
Scotland conquers England; power moves to England.

Note that without any _formal_ political change of sovereignty: 1) for
much of the time since WW II, the UK has been the sidekick of a former
colony/colonies (the US); 2) companies from former colony India have
been acquiring British companies.
--
Dan Goodman
.sig under reconstruction
W. Citoan
2008-11-03 01:59:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Goodman
Post by W. Citoan
Post by James Nicoll
* A perception that Earth, the home of the human race, will not
be a dominant market for a long time to come (This is not set in
the Solar System but while reading Regenesis I noticed how tiny
Union's population is. Cyteen has millions of people and the
various star stations hundreds of thousands. New Zealand should
be more of a power than Union).
While I agree that it takes time for a colony to surpass the
homeland, I'm not sure that is simply a population issue.
Population is going to factor into it, but some of the largest
empires in Earth history have had smaller populations that those
they dominated.
However, there's a tendency for power to move to where the population
is. Highland Scots conquer Lowlands; power moves to Lowlands.
Scotland conquers England; power moves to England.
Agreed. Population is factor, but it's not the only factor. Power did
not transfer to India when England conquered it. There is more to it
than pure population.
Post by Dan Goodman
Note that without any _formal_ political change of sovereignty: 1) for
much of the time since WW II, the UK has been the sidekick of a former
colony/colonies (the US);
By the mid-1800s, US population exceeded that of the UK and yet it would
not be to almost a century later that the US became the premier power.
Post by Dan Goodman
2) companies from former colony India have been acquiring British
companies.
One hundred-fifty years after the British established rule over India.
And in that entire time, India's population was greater so again it's
not simply a matter of population as to which is the dominate power.

- W. Citoan
--
It is by the fortune of God that, in this country, we have three benefits:
freedom of speech, freedom of thought, and the wisdom never to use either.
-- Mark Twain
Jesper Lauridsen
2008-11-18 21:44:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by W. Citoan
Post by Dan Goodman
Post by W. Citoan
While I agree that it takes time for a colony to surpass the
homeland, I'm not sure that is simply a population issue.
Population is going to factor into it, but some of the largest
empires in Earth history have had smaller populations that those
they dominated.
However, there's a tendency for power to move to where the population
is. Highland Scots conquer Lowlands; power moves to Lowlands.
Scotland conquers England; power moves to England.
Agreed. Population is factor, but it's not the only factor. Power did
not transfer to India when England conquered it. There is more to it
than pure population.
Post by Dan Goodman
Note that without any _formal_ political change of sovereignty: 1) for
much of the time since WW II, the UK has been the sidekick of a former
colony/colonies (the US);
By the mid-1800s, US population exceeded that of the UK and yet it would
not be to almost a century later that the US became the premier power.
It seems to me that your examples are all of the _mother_ country" punching
above its weight. What you need is an example with a _colony_ doing better
than expected for its size. So far you've only been strengthening the Earth
über alles position.

Nicholas Waller
2008-11-03 17:33:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Goodman
However, there's a tendency for power to move to where the population
is.  Highland Scots conquer Lowlands; power moves to Lowlands.
Scotland conquers England; power moves to England.
Bit of nit-pickery: I am not aware of Scotland conquering England. The
King of Scotland, James VI, happened to be next in line to the English
throne when Elizabeth died and so became James I of England, and moved
to London, but that's not quite the same thing.

If James had thrown his weight around too much the English/Parliament
might have rebelled and booted him off the throne. Indeed, this is
what happened to his son Charles I, who was deposed and executed after
the Civil War and we had ten years of a republic... though in the
mid-17thC we didn't really know how to operate one and so one of James
I's grandsons, Charles II became King in the Restoration. When Charles
II died, the second grandson, James II, became King, but he too was
troublesome and so he too was deposed, in the Glorious Revolution, and
the English selected some other bod to be King.

Finally, in 1707, the English essentially bribed Scottish MPs in a
bankrupt Scotland and the parliaments were united in the Acts of Union
(hence the United Kingdom - before that the two countries and crowns
were separate but shared a monarch).

The UK happens to have a Scottish Prime Minister but that too doesn't
imply conquerage.

Nick
n***@hotmail.com
2008-11-04 09:17:19 UTC
Permalink
   I am going to quote Jo Walton on Third Artist Syndrome because she
 "SF is becoming the work of the third artist. The first artist goes
 out and paints from life. The second artist copies the first artist.
 The third artist copies the second artist. (I've usually seen this
 analogy applies to fantasy, with Tolkien as the first artist.) The
 first artist put things in because there were there, or in the case
 of SF, because they were new cool speculation. The second artist put
 them in because they were trying to get close to the first. The third
 artist put them in because heck, that's what you put in. By the time
 you get to the third artist, using things like FTL and uploading
 yourself and aliens isn't speculating or asking "what if", it's
 playing with furniture in a doll's house. Going back to where we
 actually are and starting again, with the techniques but not the
 tropes of the genre, is trying to become a new first artist."
This seems to be overstating the originality of many early works.  I
doubt there is a straightforward progression from 1st -> 2nd -> 3rd,
but that all three have coincided together over most of the genre's
lifetime.
It also seems to be putting the emphasis on the props.  Speculation does
not have to be limited to technology.
 * Unitary governments across the solar system. Aside from Australia,
 which is almost an island, we don't even have unitery governments on
 single continents. This isn't to say we may not see them but why is the
 alternative so rare?
There used to be quite a few stories with multiple governments in the
Solar System.  Those seemed to revolve around the Cold War powers.
I've also seen other powers repressented. For example, Pohl's
_Gateway_ had five major powers - the US, Russia, China, Brazil and
Venus, IMS.
Perhaps it has something to do with globalization and movements like the
EU?  A perception that the Earth is moving to a single unified entity?
More likely the U.N. Pre WWII, there seemed to be many stories where
the solar system was carved up in a similar way to Africa in the 19th
Century (e.g. Weinbaum's "Parasite Planet").

Cheers,
Nigel.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2008-11-02 18:50:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
I am going to quote Jo Walton on Third Artist Syndrome because
"SF is becoming the work of the third artist. The first artist goes out
and paints from life. The second artist copies the first artist. The
third artist copies the second artist. (I've usually seen this analogy
applies to fantasy, with Tolkien as the first artist.) The first artist
put things in because there were there, or in the case of SF, because
they were new cool speculation. The second artist put them in because
they were trying to get close to the first. The third artist put them
in because heck, that's what you put in. By the time you get to the
third artist, using things like FTL and uploading yourself and aliens
isn't speculating or asking "what if", it's playing with furniture in
a doll's house. Going back to where we actually are and starting again,
with the techniques but not the tropes of the genre, is trying to become
a new first artist."
For what it's worth, I try to avoid Third Artist Syndrome when writing
fantasy, but it's very rife indeed in the genre.

In SF I admit to being guilty of it.

This may be why I do better writing fantasy.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
The final issue of the Hugo-nominated webzine Helix
is now at http://www.helixsf.com
Ken from Chicago
2008-11-03 11:09:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by James Nicoll
I am going to quote Jo Walton on Third Artist Syndrome because
"SF is becoming the work of the third artist. The first artist goes out
and paints from life. The second artist copies the first artist. The
third artist copies the second artist. (I've usually seen this analogy
applies to fantasy, with Tolkien as the first artist.) The first artist
put things in because there were there, or in the case of SF, because
they were new cool speculation. The second artist put them in because
they were trying to get close to the first. The third artist put them
in because heck, that's what you put in. By the time you get to the
third artist, using things like FTL and uploading yourself and aliens
isn't speculating or asking "what if", it's playing with furniture in
a doll's house. Going back to where we actually are and starting again,
with the techniques but not the tropes of the genre, is trying to become
a new first artist."
For what it's worth, I try to avoid Third Artist Syndrome when writing
fantasy, but it's very rife indeed in the genre.
In SF I admit to being guilty of it.
We, the STAOLOS (Stereo Typical Alien Over Lords Of Space), charge the
defendent, Lawrence Watt-Evans aka Lawrence Watt Evans aka Nathan Archer, of
the planet Earth, with limited imagination and for trial have him / her / it
/ collective self duel with another alien using only base materials, then in
a virtual environment and finally in a game of skill--with the fate of the
entire planet Earth (including the population) weighed in the balance.
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
This may be why I do better writing fantasy.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
The final issue of the Hugo-nominated webzine Helix
is now at http://www.helixsf.com
-- Ken from Chicago
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2008-11-03 15:56:28 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 05:09:38 -0600, "Ken from Chicago"
Post by Ken from Chicago
We, the STAOLOS (Stereo Typical Alien Over Lords Of Space), charge the
defendent, Lawrence Watt-Evans aka Lawrence Watt Evans aka Nathan Archer, of
the planet Earth...
Why didn't you include my other pen names?
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
The final issue of the Hugo-nominated webzine Helix
is now at http://www.helixsf.com
David DeLaney
2008-11-03 15:42:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Ken from Chicago
We, the STAOLOS (Stereo Typical Alien Over Lords Of Space), charge the
defendent, Lawrence Watt-Evans aka Lawrence Watt Evans aka Nathan Archer, of
the planet Earth...
Why didn't you include my other pen names?
They're not omnipotent, just stereo and typical.

Dave "spelt backwards is SOLOATS" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from ***@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2008-11-03 20:32:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Ken from Chicago
We, the STAOLOS (Stereo Typical Alien Over Lords Of Space), charge the
defendent, Lawrence Watt-Evans aka Lawrence Watt Evans aka Nathan Archer, of
the planet Earth...
Why didn't you include my other pen names?
They're not omnipotent, just stereo and typical.
I also note that they list a pseudonym first, then my real name, then
another pseudonym. Seems a bit odd.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
The final issue of the Hugo-nominated webzine Helix
is now at http://www.helixsf.com
Ken from Chicago
2008-11-04 03:08:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Ken from Chicago
We, the STAOLOS (Stereo Typical Alien Over Lords Of Space), charge the
defendent, Lawrence Watt-Evans aka Lawrence Watt Evans aka Nathan Archer, of
the planet Earth...
Why didn't you include my other pen names?
They're not omnipotent, just stereo and typical.
I also note that they list a pseudonym first, then my real name, then
another pseudonym. Seems a bit odd.
Being STAOLOS natch their use of Earth languages would be somewhat off.
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
The final issue of the Hugo-nominated webzine Helix
is now at http://www.helixsf.com
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
2008-11-04 03:08:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Ken from Chicago
We, the STAOLOS (Stereo Typical Alien Over Lords Of Space), charge the
defendent, Lawrence Watt-Evans aka Lawrence Watt Evans aka Nathan Archer, of
the planet Earth...
Why didn't you include my other pen names?
They're not omnipotent, just stereo and typical.
Dave "spelt backwards is SOLOATS" DeLaney
Not to be confused with the Stereotypical Over Lords Of Space, aka Han,
Leia, Jaina, Jacen and Anakin.

-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
2008-11-04 03:06:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 05:09:38 -0600, "Ken from Chicago"
Post by Ken from Chicago
We, the STAOLOS (Stereo Typical Alien Over Lords Of Space), charge the
defendent, Lawrence Watt-Evans aka Lawrence Watt Evans aka Nathan Archer, of
the planet Earth...
Why didn't you include my other pen names?
We, the STAOLOS, are impressed at your ability to remain calm in the face of
potential global cataclysm--or shocked at your vanity for being more
concerned about your appellation over armageddon. Being STAOLOS, your Earth
emotions are hard for us to decipher, much less experience.
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
The final issue of the Hugo-nominated webzine Helix
is now at http://www.helixsf.com
-- Ken from Chicago
Dimensional Traveler
2008-11-04 22:41:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken from Chicago
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 05:09:38 -0600, "Ken from Chicago"
Post by Ken from Chicago
We, the STAOLOS (Stereo Typical Alien Over Lords Of Space), charge
the defendent, Lawrence Watt-Evans aka Lawrence Watt Evans aka
Nathan Archer, of
the planet Earth...
Why didn't you include my other pen names?
We, the STAOLOS, are impressed at your ability to remain calm in the
face of potential global cataclysm--or shocked at your vanity for
being more concerned about your appellation over armageddon. Being
STAOLOS, your Earth emotions are hard for us to decipher, much less
experience.
It is the custom here on Earth that when indicting a writer the authorities
must also indict by individual name each of said writer's pens and other
writing impliments.
--
"What Kind of perv rememembers the scenes where she's clothed???" -
Anim8rFSK, 8/23/08
David Goldfarb
2008-11-05 00:09:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 05:09:38 -0600, "Ken from Chicago"
Post by Ken from Chicago
We, the STAOLOS (Stereo Typical Alien Over Lords Of Space), charge the
defendent, Lawrence Watt-Evans aka Lawrence Watt Evans aka Nathan Archer, of
the planet Earth...
Why didn't you include my other pen names?
At a guess, because they didn't know what they were. I have to admit,
I don't know what they are either. Are you willing to let us know?
--
David Goldfarb |"I'm in the middle of fifteen things,
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | all of them annoying."
***@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Babylon 5, "Midnight on the Firing Line"
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2008-11-05 05:53:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 05:09:38 -0600, "Ken from Chicago"
Post by Ken from Chicago
We, the STAOLOS (Stereo Typical Alien Over Lords Of Space), charge the
defendent, Lawrence Watt-Evans aka Lawrence Watt Evans aka Nathan Archer, of
the planet Earth...
Why didn't you include my other pen names?
At a guess, because they didn't know what they were. I have to admit,
I don't know what they are either. Are you willing to let us know?
I thought it might be because none of them have published at book
length, as yet.

Walter Vance Awsten is one; the others don't write SF.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
The final issue of the Hugo-nominated webzine Helix
is now at http://www.helixsf.com
Ken from Chicago
2008-11-05 10:07:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 05:09:38 -0600, "Ken from Chicago"
Post by Ken from Chicago
We, the STAOLOS (Stereo Typical Alien Over Lords Of Space), charge the
defendent, Lawrence Watt-Evans aka Lawrence Watt Evans aka Nathan Archer, of
the planet Earth...
Why didn't you include my other pen names?
At a guess, because they didn't know what they were. I have to admit,
I don't know what they are either. Are you willing to let us know?
I thought it might be because none of them have published at book
length, as yet.
Walter Vance Awsten is one; the others don't write SF.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
The final issue of the Hugo-nominated webzine Helix
is now at http://www.helixsf.com
What others?

-- Ken from Chicago
Bill Snyder
2008-11-04 23:59:09 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 05:09:38 -0600, "Ken from Chicago"
Post by Ken from Chicago
We, the STAOLOS (Stereo Typical Alien Over Lords Of Space), charge the
defendent, Lawrence Watt-Evans aka Lawrence Watt Evans aka Nathan Archer, of
the planet Earth, with limited imagination and for trial have him / her / it
/ collective self duel with another alien using only base materials, then in
a virtual environment and finally in a game of skill--with the fate of the
entire planet Earth (including the population) weighed in the balance.
Oh, what twaddle. If your were real Alien Overlords of Space,
there wouldn't be any of this indicting and dueling crap. You'd
just glarkle them all and let Feem sort them out.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
Ken from Chicago
2008-11-05 04:04:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 05:09:38 -0600, "Ken from Chicago"
Post by Ken from Chicago
We, the STAOLOS (Stereo Typical Alien Over Lords Of Space), charge the
defendent, Lawrence Watt-Evans aka Lawrence Watt Evans aka Nathan Archer, of
the planet Earth, with limited imagination and for trial have him / her / it
/ collective self duel with another alien using only base materials, then in
a virtual environment and finally in a game of skill--with the fate of the
entire planet Earth (including the population) weighed in the balance.
Oh, what twaddle. If your were real Alien Overlords of Space,
there wouldn't be any of this indicting and dueling crap. You'd
just glarkle them all and let Feem sort them out.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
RAOLOS are in the next galactic quadrant over.

We, the STAOLOS, stretch out the pain, and include a ridiculous level of
escape possibilities. Right now we are determining whether to engage in a
long monologue or turning our back on the defendent while he's in an
"escape-proof" trial sector--or turning off the infrared, motion-detecting,
nightvision videocams in the really large vents connected to courthouse /
detention center.

-- Ken from Chicago
David Johnston
2008-11-02 19:13:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
* Early and relatively fast space development. Examples include Sheffield's
Post-Great War series, where the spacers are numerous and rich enough to
rebel against Earth by the 2070s, and Varley's Red Thunder setting.
[One thing that seems obvious from the last fifty years is that development
cycles in space exploitation research are slow compared to R&D for things
like computers]
Of course the problem with a realistic portrayal of space development
is that it means by the time we get into space in a significant way
we're talking an "indistinguishable from magic" tech base and it
becomes improbable that the human species would be in space for any
reason except tourist excursions. That's no fun.
Post by James Nicoll
* High crew/cargo mass ratios. Honestly, if you don't have passengers,
I am not sure you need any crew at all.
Exactly.
Post by James Nicoll
* No idea how long it would take to terraform a planet. Interestingly, I think there's a correlation between refusing to accept an anthropogenic element to terrestrial climate change and believing that terraforming Venus in a few decades is just a matter of spreading some algae in the upper atmosphere.
That's a problem I've had in my attempts to work up an RPG universe.
When I did research into the question, I quickly figured that no world
lacking native life would be fixed up in less than a millenium by
anything short of Star Trek genesis torpedos.
DJensen
2008-11-02 20:39:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
I am going to quote Jo Walton on Third Artist Syndrome because
"SF is becoming the work of the third artist. The first artist goes out
and paints from life. The second artist copies the first artist. The
third artist copies the second artist. (I've usually seen this analogy
applies to fantasy, with Tolkien as the first artist.) The first artist
put things in because there were there, or in the case of SF, because
they were new cool speculation. The second artist put them in because
they were trying to get close to the first. The third artist put them
in because heck, that's what you put in. By the time you get to the
third artist, using things like FTL and uploading yourself and aliens
isn't speculating or asking "what if", it's playing with furniture in
a doll's house. Going back to where we actually are and starting again,
with the techniques but not the tropes of the genre, is trying to become
a new first artist."
I'm not sure if the above is meant as criticism, but would the genre (or
any genre, I suppose) survive without the second and third generation
building on the work of the first? There are only so many unique "what
would it be like to live on the moon?" stories to be told before the
audience tires of it; enter "what if the moon colonies declared
independence?" and other variations that assume 'living on the moon'
without making that the point of the story.

That doesn't mean it's all golden, and certainly not all first
generation speculation is, but "playing with furniture" is necessary.
--
DJensen
James Nicoll
2008-11-02 21:26:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by DJensen
Post by James Nicoll
I am going to quote Jo Walton on Third Artist Syndrome because
"SF is becoming the work of the third artist. The first artist goes out
and paints from life. The second artist copies the first artist. The
third artist copies the second artist. (I've usually seen this analogy
applies to fantasy, with Tolkien as the first artist.) The first artist
put things in because there were there, or in the case of SF, because
they were new cool speculation. The second artist put them in because
they were trying to get close to the first. The third artist put them
in because heck, that's what you put in. By the time you get to the
third artist, using things like FTL and uploading yourself and aliens
isn't speculating or asking "what if", it's playing with furniture in
a doll's house. Going back to where we actually are and starting again,
with the techniques but not the tropes of the genre, is trying to become
a new first artist."
I'm not sure if the above is meant as criticism, but would the genre (or
any genre, I suppose) survive without the second and third generation
building on the work of the first? There are only so many unique "what
would it be like to live on the moon?" stories to be told before the
audience tires of it; enter "what if the moon colonies declared
independence?" and other variations that assume 'living on the moon'
without making that the point of the story.
That doesn't mean it's all golden, and certainly not all first
generation speculation is, but "playing with furniture" is necessary.
Sure but from time to time people have to look at the
genre furniture and consider whether it makes sense, whether
we're talking Cozy cops who don't bother to fingerprint a murder
victim (or notice that manual laborers hands may have callous
that your upper crust aristos hands lack) or just the idea of
grabbing ice from within the roche limit of a gas giant.

Don't get me started on the spread of "if we stick a hose
into a gas giant, its internal pressure will force H2 up into
orbit". Frankly, one book with that was enough.
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Gene
2008-11-02 23:36:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Don't get me started on the spread of "if we stick a hose
into a gas giant, its internal pressure will force H2 up into
orbit". Frankly, one book with that was enough.
What about a story where if you suck on the hose hard enough, you can get the
H2? Or since H2 is flammable, ignite it and explode it out into space.
Dimensional Traveler
2008-11-03 01:00:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene
Post by James Nicoll
Don't get me started on the spread of "if we stick a hose
into a gas giant, its internal pressure will force H2 up into
orbit". Frankly, one book with that was enough.
What about a story where if you suck on the hose hard enough, you can
get the H2? Or since H2 is flammable, ignite it and explode it out
into space.
Well, if you're gonna go that far why not just make the hose rigid and
conical so you can move the gas giant to wherever you want. G,D&R.
--
"What Kind of perv rememembers the scenes where she's clothed???" -
Anim8rFSK, 8/23/08
Ken from Chicago
2008-11-03 11:12:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Gene
Post by James Nicoll
Don't get me started on the spread of "if we stick a hose
into a gas giant, its internal pressure will force H2 up into
orbit". Frankly, one book with that was enough.
What about a story where if you suck on the hose hard enough, you can
get the H2? Or since H2 is flammable, ignite it and explode it out
into space.
Well, if you're gonna go that far why not just make the hose rigid and
conical so you can move the gas giant to wherever you want. G,D&R.
--
"What Kind of perv rememembers the scenes where she's clothed???" -
Anim8rFSK, 8/23/08
So the problem is a lack of actual science / physics education (from which
the whatif of SF should spring)?

-- Ken from Chicago
Dimensional Traveler
2008-11-02 20:48:18 UTC
Permalink
James Nicoll wrote:
<snip>
Post by James Nicoll
* Implausibly good rockets, where high accelerations can be maintained
for days or weeks. Sometimes this is merely implausibly good mundane
technology (some kind of fusion drive) and more rarely some sort of
magical mystery drive (as in Blish's Welcome to Mars or Varley recent
Earth People All Suck series).
I searched Amazon for books titled "Earth People All Suck" and the only
result I got was this:
http://www.amazon.com/Our-Near-Future-Message-Governments/dp/1428619550/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225658506&sr=1-1

Our Near Future: A Message To All The Governments And People Of Earth
(Paperback)

Product Description: Read This Book And See The Plain Statements And Figures
Of God Himself Laid Out In His Most Orderly Manner Without Guess, But
Carefully Covered From The Eyes Of Men Until The Time Would Come When It
Would Be Due To Be Understood, As Predicted By The Prophet Daniel.


Somehow I don't think that's the book you are referring to. :P
--
"What Kind of perv rememembers the scenes where she's clothed???" -
Anim8rFSK, 8/23/08
i***@rcn.com
2008-11-02 23:59:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
* Implausibly good rockets, where high accelerations can be maintained
for days or weeks. <skip>
* Despite the above, many of the settings will have people who customarily
spend hundreds or thousands of kilometers per second getting around worry
about the kilometers per second it costs to get off a terrestrial planet
(Yes, JEP complained about this long before me).
About a week ago I read "The Patchwork Girl" -- the only (I think)
Niven's KS story I did not read back in 1980's[1]. What you mentioned
was certainly jarring.
Post by James Nicoll
* Overlooking local escape velocities due a focus on a particular
local resource. This is mainly the idea that Jupiter would be a good
place to get hydrogen, although I can name at least one book where they
want to get ice from Saturn's rings.
[Well, two and as much as I like "The Martian Way", it was dumb there
too]
What exactly was dumb about "The Martian Way"? At least, given the
state of knowledge about solar system back when it was written?

[1] Reading "The Patchwork Girl" was very much a trip down the memory
lane.
James Nicoll
2008-11-03 03:31:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by i***@rcn.com
Post by James Nicoll
* Overlooking local escape velocities due a focus on a particular
local resource. This is mainly the idea that Jupiter would be a good
place to get hydrogen, although I can name at least one book where they
want to get ice from Saturn's rings.
[Well, two and as much as I like "The Martian Way", it was dumb there
too]
What exactly was dumb about "The Martian Way"? At least, given the
state of knowledge about solar system back when it was written?
At the time, I believe it was thought that Vesta had ice
(which as it happens it doesn't seem to). It's easy enough to see
that recovering material from the rings of Saturn will cost more
delta vee than Vesta or other small icy body.
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Mike Schilling
2008-11-03 03:52:16 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by i***@rcn.com
Post by James Nicoll
* Overlooking local escape velocities due a focus on a particular
local resource. This is mainly the idea that Jupiter would be a good
place to get hydrogen, although I can name at least one book where
they want to get ice from Saturn's rings.
[Well, two and as much as I like "The Martian Way", it was dumb
there too]
What exactly was dumb about "The Martian Way"? At least, given the
state of knowledge about solar system back when it was written?
At the time, I believe it was thought that Vesta had ice
(which as it happens it doesn't seem to). It's easy enough to see
that recovering material from the rings of Saturn will cost more
delta vee than Vesta or other small icy body.
So it's one of the few stories that seems smarter in retrospect?
James Nicoll
2008-11-03 04:07:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Schilling
In article
Post by i***@rcn.com
Post by James Nicoll
* Overlooking local escape velocities due a focus on a particular
local resource. This is mainly the idea that Jupiter would be a good
place to get hydrogen, although I can name at least one book where
they want to get ice from Saturn's rings.
[Well, two and as much as I like "The Martian Way", it was dumb
there too]
What exactly was dumb about "The Martian Way"? At least, given the
state of knowledge about solar system back when it was written?
At the time, I believe it was thought that Vesta had ice
(which as it happens it doesn't seem to). It's easy enough to see
that recovering material from the rings of Saturn will cost more
delta vee than Vesta or other small icy body.
So it's one of the few stories that seems smarter in retrospect?
No, because there's an embarassment of riches as far as sources
of H2O that aren't on Earth or in Saturn's rings go.
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2008-11-03 13:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Mike Schilling
In article
Post by i***@rcn.com
Post by James Nicoll
* Overlooking local escape velocities due a focus on a particular
local resource. This is mainly the idea that Jupiter would be a good
place to get hydrogen, although I can name at least one book where
they want to get ice from Saturn's rings.
[Well, two and as much as I like "The Martian Way", it was dumb
there too]
What exactly was dumb about "The Martian Way"? At least, given the
state of knowledge about solar system back when it was written?
At the time, I believe it was thought that Vesta had ice
(which as it happens it doesn't seem to). It's easy enough to see
that recovering material from the rings of Saturn will cost more
delta vee than Vesta or other small icy body.
So it's one of the few stories that seems smarter in retrospect?
No, because there's an embarassment of riches as far as sources
of H2O that aren't on Earth or in Saturn's rings go.
The Martian Way's point there wasn't necessarily that there might not
be other sources of H2O per se, but that only in Saturn's rings were
there big chunks of H2O that were (A)pretty much pure, (B)in
easily-moveable single pieces.

Vesta (and any other large body like Ceres, etc.) would presumably
require chopping out mile-sized chunks FIRST -- intact -- and then
assembling the ice-ship. Saturn (as depicted in the story) had literally
millions of chunks of just the right size available, requiring no prep
except setting the engines. It's at least arguable that the mining and
assembly effort would be more difficult than the longer trip out.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Joseph Nebus
2008-11-03 05:47:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by i***@rcn.com
Post by James Nicoll
* Overlooking local escape velocities due a focus on a particular
local resource. This is mainly the idea that Jupiter would be a good
place to get hydrogen, although I can name at least one book where they
want to get ice from Saturn's rings.
[Well, two and as much as I like "The Martian Way", it was dumb there
too]
What exactly was dumb about "The Martian Way"? At least, given the
state of knowledge about solar system back when it was written?
At the time, I believe it was thought that Vesta had ice
(which as it happens it doesn't seem to). It's easy enough to see
that recovering material from the rings of Saturn will cost more
delta vee than Vesta or other small icy body.
Would ice be mineable from the presumed Vesta given the
technology which the Martian colony had on-hand? The details of what
they had to work with were sketchy, of course, but Mars's industrial
base was such that it somehow made economic sense to go scavenging
spent rocket stages from Earth for the refined metals rather than to
mine or refine what Mars or asteroids had.

It could be that water which was farther away but didn't need
anything fancier than setting up the rockets --- Asimov modelled the
rings of Saturn as being composed of mountains of ice with minor
impurities --- would be preferable to nearer (and faster) sources
that needed particular extraction.

I also note that John W Campbell's 1937 series about the Solar
System declares flatly that ice would be impossible on Vesta, and makes
the hypotheses that the reflective asteroid might be covered in quartz,
calcium sulphate, or aluminium oxides. There's a world of difference
between 1937 and 1952, of course, and we don't know what Asimov was
reading for his science in 1952, but we can be confident he read that
1937 description of the asteroid.

Oddly, the New York Times Archive doesn't seem to mention any
discoveries about Vesta's composition in that stretch of time, or at
all, really. I may not be searching effectively enough.
--
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Default User
2008-11-03 06:05:01 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by i***@rcn.com
What exactly was dumb about "The Martian Way"? At least, given the
state of knowledge about solar system back when it was written?
At the time, I believe it was thought that Vesta had ice
(which as it happens it doesn't seem to). It's easy enough to see
that recovering material from the rings of Saturn will cost more
delta vee than Vesta or other small icy body.
However, they weren't mining ice. They wanted to find an ice chunk of
the right size that they could attach rocket motors to and fly back.
They weren't going to be able to fly Vesta back.



Brian
--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
Dorothy J Heydt
2008-11-03 00:08:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
I am going to quote Jo Walton on Third Artist Syndrome because
Note that she is paraphrasing the essay by Heather Rose Jones
which appeared in Marion Zimmer Bradley's Fantasy Magazine, issue
#30, about 1995.
Post by James Nicoll
"SF is becoming the work of the third artist. The first artist goes out
and paints from life. The second artist copies the first artist. The
third artist copies the second artist. (I've usually seen this analogy
applies to fantasy, with Tolkien as the first artist.) The first artist
put things in because there were there, or in the case of SF, because
they were new cool speculation. The second artist put them in because
they were trying to get close to the first. The third artist put them
in because heck, that's what you put in. By the time you get to the
third artist, using things like FTL and uploading yourself and aliens
isn't speculating or asking "what if", it's playing with furniture in
a doll's house. Going back to where we actually are and starting again,
with the techniques but not the tropes of the genre, is trying to become
a new first artist."
And some examples of the doll's house furnitire that I see
[examples schnipped]

True.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
***@kithrup.com
William December Starr
2008-11-03 03:50:27 UTC
Permalink
I am going to quote Jo Walton on Third Artist Syndrome because she
[elided]

How much does the sum of her 150-plus words differ from "I don't see
anybody/enough people coming up with new ideas in SF anymore"?

-- wds
Ken from Chicago
2008-11-03 11:14:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by William December Starr
I am going to quote Jo Walton on Third Artist Syndrome because she
[elided]
How much does the sum of her 150-plus words differ from "I don't see
anybody/enough people coming up with new ideas in SF anymore"?
-- wds
Gibson
Vinge
Stross

Or would that include short stories as well as novels?

-- Ken from Chicago
Derek Lyons
2008-11-03 06:48:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
I am going to quote Jo Walton on Third Artist Syndrome because
"SF is becoming the work of the third artist. The first artist goes out
and paints from life. The second artist copies the first artist. The
third artist copies the second artist. (I've usually seen this analogy
applies to fantasy, with Tolkien as the first artist.) The first artist
put things in because there were there, or in the case of SF, because
they were new cool speculation. The second artist put them in because
they were trying to get close to the first. The third artist put them
in because heck, that's what you put in. By the time you get to the
third artist, using things like FTL and uploading yourself and aliens
isn't speculating or asking "what if", it's playing with furniture in
a doll's house. Going back to where we actually are and starting again,
with the techniques but not the tropes of the genre, is trying to become
a new first artist."
That would be true - in a world where every 'third artist' is nothing
but a copycat who injects nothing new. In the real world, the
situation is rather messier, in that using existing tropes and asking
'what if' are entirely compatible.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Nicholas Waller
2008-11-03 17:56:22 UTC
Permalink
        I am going to quote Jo Walton on Third Artist Syndrome because
"SF is becoming the work of the third artist. The first artist goes out
and paints from life. The second artist copies the first artist. The
third artist copies the second artist. (I've usually seen this analogy
applies to fantasy, with Tolkien as the first artist.)
Not that I disagree with the criticism that some SF and fantasy is
merely non-creative hackery picking from, messing with and rearranging
someone else's hard-fought creativity, there's a sense in which the
analogy doesn't entirely hold up. Art - say painting - is not simply a
process of going out into the world and painting what is out there, it
is also a series of responses to what previous artists have done.
Otherwise there would be no History of Art, with developments of
styles and movements and so on, there would just be one damn thing
after another, with artists coming up with random images with no
datable coherence - impressionist landscapes by Byzantine icon
painters, a cubist in the Renaissance.

This is probably similar with music styles over the centuries - people
take what someone has done previously and push it about, add to it,
invert it. And similar with science too... if I have seen further than
anyone else it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants, and
all that.

In SF you do need some sense of the furniture to make it a genre in
the first place, with an interesting and worthwhile history. One of
the criticisms of outsider literary types who try and do an sf-style
work is that they are unaware of the tropes, arguments, debates and
other work already done in SF before they decided to reinvent the
blaster from scratch.

Nick
Loading...