Discussion:
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
(too old to reply)
Lynn McGuire
2024-05-31 20:32:11 UTC
Permalink
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”

https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/

10. Blood on the Stars by Jay Allan - never heard of it
9. Hyperion by Dan Simmons - yes
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
7. Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold - freaking awesome series
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
5. The Commonwealth Saga by Peter F. Hamilton - I have never read the series
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
3. Old Man's War by John Scalzi - yes
2. The Expanse Series by James S.A. Corey - awesome series
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
1B. Honor Harrington Saga by David Weber - yes

David Weber's Dahak series needs to be a part of this list.

I would swap The Foundation Series and The Vorkosigan series.

Lynn
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-05-31 21:28:47 UTC
Permalink
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
10. Blood on the Stars by Jay Allan - never heard of it
9. Hyperion by Dan Simmons - yes
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
7. Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold - freaking awesome series
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
5. The Commonwealth Saga by Peter F. Hamilton - I have never read the series
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
3. Old Man's War by John Scalzi - yes
2. The Expanse Series by James S.A. Corey - awesome series
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
1B. Honor Harrington Saga by David Weber - yes
David Weber's Dahak series needs to be a part of this list.
I would swap The Foundation Series and The Vorkosigan series.
Lynn
I would say that Foundation is *not* Space Opera. In fact it makes some
fun of Space Opera.

_Triplanetary_ definitely is, but how can you be aware of Doc Smith and
leave a) the Lensman series proper & b) the Skylark series off of a
Space Opera list?

I would add The Exordium.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Lynn McGuire
2024-06-01 00:09:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
10. Blood on the Stars by Jay Allan - never heard of it
9. Hyperion by Dan Simmons - yes
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
7. Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold - freaking awesome series
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
5. The Commonwealth Saga by Peter F. Hamilton - I have never read the series
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
3. Old Man's War by John Scalzi - yes
2. The Expanse Series by James S.A. Corey - awesome series
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
1B. Honor Harrington Saga by David Weber - yes
David Weber's Dahak series needs to be a part of this list.
I would swap The Foundation Series and The Vorkosigan series.
Lynn
I would say that Foundation is *not* Space Opera. In fact it makes some
fun of Space Opera.
_Triplanetary_ definitely is, but how can you be aware of Doc Smith and
leave a) the Lensman series proper & b) the Skylark series off of a
Space Opera list?
I would add The Exordium.
Do you mean this book ?
https://www.amazon.com/Phoenix-Flight-Exordium-Book/dp/0812520246/

Lynn
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-06-01 06:51:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
10. Blood on the Stars by Jay Allan - never heard of it
9. Hyperion by Dan Simmons - yes
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
7. Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold - freaking awesome series
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
5. The Commonwealth Saga by Peter F. Hamilton - I have never read the series
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
3. Old Man's War by John Scalzi - yes
2. The Expanse Series by James S.A. Corey - awesome series
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
1B. Honor Harrington Saga by David Weber - yes
David Weber's Dahak series needs to be a part of this list.
I would swap The Foundation Series and The Vorkosigan series.
Lynn
I would say that Foundation is *not* Space Opera. In fact it makes some
fun of Space Opera.
_Triplanetary_ definitely is, but how can you be aware of Doc Smith and
leave a) the Lensman series proper & b) the Skylark series off of a
Space Opera list?
I would add The Exordium.
Do you mean this book ?
https://www.amazon.com/Phoenix-Flight-Exordium-Book/dp/0812520246/
Lynn
That's the first one, yes. Romance, noble deeds, high drama, low comedy,
space battles, & pie fights. IMHO, should have been a runaway hit, but
seems to have largely gone under the radar.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Titus G
2024-06-01 07:05:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
10. Blood on the Stars by Jay Allan - never heard of it
9. Hyperion by Dan Simmons - yes
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
7. Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold - freaking awesome series
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
5. The Commonwealth Saga by Peter F. Hamilton - I have never read the series
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
3. Old Man's War by John Scalzi - yes
2. The Expanse Series by James S.A. Corey - awesome series
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
1B. Honor Harrington Saga by David Weber - yes
David Weber's Dahak series needs to be a part of this list.
I would swap The Foundation Series and The Vorkosigan series.
Lynn
I would say that Foundation is *not* Space Opera. In fact it makes some
fun of Space Opera.
_Triplanetary_ definitely is, but how can you be aware of Doc Smith and
leave a) the Lensman series proper & b) the Skylark series off of a
Space Opera list?
I would add The Exordium.
Do you mean this book ?
https://www.amazon.com/Phoenix-Flight-Exordium-Book/dp/0812520246/
Lynn
That's the first one, yes. Romance, noble deeds, high drama, low comedy,
space battles, & pie fights. IMHO, should have been a runaway hit, but
seems to have largely gone under the radar.
Really? Then I must have been advised to read it here. Solid four stars
for each of five books except for book two, Ruler of Naught, which was
five stars. I read them in 2019 and I am sure I would enjoy a re-read.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-06-01 17:13:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
10. Blood on the Stars by Jay Allan - never heard of it
9. Hyperion by Dan Simmons - yes
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
7. Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold - freaking awesome series
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
5. The Commonwealth Saga by Peter F. Hamilton - I have never read
the series
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
3. Old Man's War by John Scalzi - yes
2. The Expanse Series by James S.A. Corey - awesome series
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
1B. Honor Harrington Saga by David Weber - yes
David Weber's Dahak series needs to be a part of this list.
I would swap The Foundation Series and The Vorkosigan series.
Lynn
I would say that Foundation is *not* Space Opera. In fact it makes some
fun of Space Opera.
_Triplanetary_ definitely is, but how can you be aware of Doc Smith and
leave a) the Lensman series proper & b) the Skylark series off of a
Space Opera list?
I would add The Exordium.
Do you mean this book ?
https://www.amazon.com/Phoenix-Flight-Exordium-Book/dp/0812520246/
Lynn
That's the first one, yes. Romance, noble deeds, high drama, low comedy,
space battles, & pie fights. IMHO, should have been a runaway hit, but
seems to have largely gone under the radar.
Really? Then I must have been advised to read it here. Solid four stars
for each of five books except for book two, Ruler of Naught, which was
five stars. I read them in 2019 and I am sure I would enjoy a re-read.
That was probably me doing the advising. I bring it up on appropriate
threads from time to time. I see the kindle edition is "revised". Not
sure if that's interesting, or worrying, though the authors dropped in
here once and said reassuring words about the (then ongoing) work.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Michael F. Stemper
2024-06-01 19:58:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
10. Blood on the Stars by Jay Allan - never heard of it
9. Hyperion by Dan Simmons - yes
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
7. Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold - freaking awesome series
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
5. The Commonwealth Saga by Peter F. Hamilton - I have never read the series
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
3. Old Man's War by John Scalzi - yes
2. The Expanse Series by James S.A. Corey - awesome series
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
1B. Honor Harrington Saga by David Weber - yes
David Weber's Dahak series needs to be a part of this list.
I would swap The Foundation Series and The Vorkosigan series.
I would say that Foundation is *not* Space Opera. In fact it makes some
fun of Space Opera.
_Triplanetary_ definitely is, but how can you be aware of Doc Smith and
leave a) the Lensman series proper & b) the Skylark series off of a
Space Opera list?
100% agreed. I'm not too convinced that _Hyperion_ (or the four-novel series
that it kicks off) or the Culture qualify as Space Opera, either. I briefly
perused the page and some of its links, but was unable to find what they
were using as a definition of "space opera".
--
Michael F. Stemper
A preposition is something you should never end a sentence with.
Paul S Person
2024-06-02 15:55:13 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 14:58:38 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
10. Blood on the Stars by Jay Allan - never heard of it
9. Hyperion by Dan Simmons - yes
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
7. Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold - freaking awesome series
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
5. The Commonwealth Saga by Peter F. Hamilton - I have never read the series
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
3. Old Man's War by John Scalzi - yes
2. The Expanse Series by James S.A. Corey - awesome series
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
1B. Honor Harrington Saga by David Weber - yes
David Weber's Dahak series needs to be a part of this list.
I would swap The Foundation Series and The Vorkosigan series.
I would say that Foundation is *not* Space Opera. In fact it makes some
fun of Space Opera.
_Triplanetary_ definitely is, but how can you be aware of Doc Smith and
leave a) the Lensman series proper & b) the Skylark series off of a
Space Opera list?
100% agreed. I'm not too convinced that _Hyperion_ (or the four-novel series
that it kicks off) or the Culture qualify as Space Opera, either. I briefly
perused the page and some of its links, but was unable to find what they
were using as a definition of "space opera".
I think I've mostly regarded "space opera" as a formation based on
"horse opera". FWIW. YMMV.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-06-02 16:20:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 14:58:38 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
10. Blood on the Stars by Jay Allan - never heard of it
9. Hyperion by Dan Simmons - yes
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
7. Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold - freaking awesome series
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
5. The Commonwealth Saga by Peter F. Hamilton - I have never read the series
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
3. Old Man's War by John Scalzi - yes
2. The Expanse Series by James S.A. Corey - awesome series
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
1B. Honor Harrington Saga by David Weber - yes
David Weber's Dahak series needs to be a part of this list.
I would swap The Foundation Series and The Vorkosigan series.
I would say that Foundation is *not* Space Opera. In fact it makes some
fun of Space Opera.
_Triplanetary_ definitely is, but how can you be aware of Doc Smith and
leave a) the Lensman series proper & b) the Skylark series off of a
Space Opera list?
100% agreed. I'm not too convinced that _Hyperion_ (or the four-novel series
that it kicks off) or the Culture qualify as Space Opera, either. I briefly
perused the page and some of its links, but was unable to find what they
were using as a definition of "space opera".
I think I've mostly regarded "space opera" as a formation based on
"horse opera". FWIW. YMMV.
Well, there is Jack Vance, of course:

https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?31427
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Michael F. Stemper
2024-06-03 13:02:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 14:58:38 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
I would swap The Foundation Series and The Vorkosigan series.
I would say that Foundation is *not* Space Opera. In fact it makes some
fun of Space Opera.
_Triplanetary_ definitely is, but how can you be aware of Doc Smith and
leave a) the Lensman series proper & b) the Skylark series off of a
Space Opera list?
100% agreed. I'm not too convinced that _Hyperion_ (or the four-novel series
that it kicks off) or the Culture qualify as Space Opera, either. I briefly
perused the page and some of its links, but was unable to find what they
were using as a definition of "space opera".
I think I've mostly regarded "space opera" as a formation based on
"horse opera". FWIW. YMMV.
I have no doubt about that being the etymology of the term. But, it's hardly
a definition. And I was wondering specifically about the definition used by
the folks setting up the poll; the definition that viewed Hyperion and
Foundation as "space opera".

My guess is that the pollsters had no criteria, and this poll was really
"what science fiction do you like?" With serious sampling issues.
--
Michael F. Stemper
The name of the story is "A Sound of Thunder".
It was written by Ray Bradbury. You're welcome.
Chris Buckley
2024-06-03 13:46:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 14:58:38 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
I would swap The Foundation Series and The Vorkosigan series.
I would say that Foundation is *not* Space Opera. In fact it makes some
fun of Space Opera.
_Triplanetary_ definitely is, but how can you be aware of Doc Smith and
leave a) the Lensman series proper & b) the Skylark series off of a
Space Opera list?
100% agreed. I'm not too convinced that _Hyperion_ (or the four-novel series
that it kicks off) or the Culture qualify as Space Opera, either. I briefly
perused the page and some of its links, but was unable to find what they
were using as a definition of "space opera".
I think I've mostly regarded "space opera" as a formation based on
"horse opera". FWIW. YMMV.
I have no doubt about that being the etymology of the term. But, it's hardly
a definition. And I was wondering specifically about the definition used by
the folks setting up the poll; the definition that viewed Hyperion and
Foundation as "space opera".
My guess is that the pollsters had no criteria, and this poll was really
"what science fiction do you like?" With serious sampling issues.
Wikipedia has a nice article on "space opera"; a very major focus of
it is how the definition has changed over the years, and how many
different definitions of it there are.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera
I pretty definitely agree with the older definitions more than how
it is apparently currently used.

I agree that I don't consider either _Hyperion_ or _Foundation_ to be
space opera. But I think both of them are closer than novels like
_Dune_ and _Ender's Game_ that were considered space opera the first time
this group tried a top 10 space opera list.

My personal entry for a top 10 space opera would include Cook's
_The Dragon Never Sleeps_ (a strong Favorite of mine). I like the suggestion
of William's Praxis series, but it doesn't quite reach top 10 for me.
I also like Westerfeld's _The Risen Empire_ duology.

Chris
Michael F. Stemper
2024-06-03 14:27:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Paul S Person
I think I've mostly regarded "space opera" as a formation based on
"horse opera". FWIW. YMMV.
I have no doubt about that being the etymology of the term. But, it's hardly
a definition. And I was wondering specifically about the definition used by
the folks setting up the poll; the definition that viewed Hyperion and
Foundation as "space opera".
My guess is that the pollsters had no criteria, and this poll was really
"what science fiction do you like?" With serious sampling issues.
Wikipedia has a nice article on "space opera"; a very major focus of
it is how the definition has changed over the years, and how many
different definitions of it there are.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera
Interesting article, thanks.

One bit of it that did bring me up short was a definition of "hard science
fiction" as:
[...] emphasis is on the effects of technological progress and inventions,
and where the settings are carefully worked out to obey the laws of
physics, cosmology, mathematics, and biology.

This is a fine definition of hard SF, but it goes on to say:
[...] Examples are seen in the works of Alastair Reynolds or the movie
The Last Starfighter.

I have a lot of trouble figuring out how _The Last Starfighter_ has a
setting "carefully worked out to obey the laws of physics". It's a great
flick, but its physics is laughable.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Indians scattered on dawn's highway bleeding;
Ghosts crowd the young child's fragile eggshell mind.
Robert Carnegie
2024-06-10 19:03:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Paul S Person
I think I've mostly regarded "space opera" as a formation based on
"horse opera". FWIW. YMMV.
I have no doubt about that being the etymology of the term. But, it's hardly
a definition. And I was wondering specifically about the definition used by
the folks setting up the poll; the definition that viewed Hyperion and
Foundation as "space opera".
My guess is that the pollsters had no criteria, and this poll was really
"what science fiction do you like?" With serious sampling issues.
Wikipedia has a nice article on "space opera"; a very major focus of
it is how the definition has changed over the years, and how many
different definitions of it there are.
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera
Interesting article, thanks.
One bit of it that did bring me up short was a definition of "hard science
  [...] emphasis is on the effects of technological progress and
inventions,
  and where the settings are carefully worked out to obey the laws of
  physics, cosmology, mathematics, and biology.
  [...] Examples are seen in the works of Alastair Reynolds or the movie
  The Last Starfighter.
I have a lot of trouble figuring out how _The Last Starfighter_ has a
setting "carefully worked out to obey the laws of physics". It's a great
flick, but its physics is laughable.
Anyone can edit Wikipedia, up to a point.
Please so not get ideas.
Paul S Person
2024-06-03 15:30:23 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 3 Jun 2024 08:02:34 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
<snippo>
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Paul S Person
I think I've mostly regarded "space opera" as a formation based on
"horse opera". FWIW. YMMV.
I have no doubt about that being the etymology of the term. But, it's hardly
a definition. And I was wondering specifically about the definition used by
the folks setting up the poll; the definition that viewed Hyperion and
Foundation as "space opera".
OK, here's what
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_opera#:~:text=A%20horse%20opera%2C%20hoss%20opera%2C%20oat%20opera%20or,used%20variously%20to%20convey%20either%20disparagement%20or%20affection>
has to say:

"A horse opera, hoss opera, oat opera or oater is a Western film or
television series that is clichéd or formulaic, in the manner of a
(later) soap opera or space opera.

"The term, which was originally coined by silent film-era Western star
William S. Hart, is used variously to convey either disparagement or
affection. The term "horse opera" is quite loosely defined; it does
not specify a distinct sub-genre of the Western (as "space opera" does
with regard to the science fiction genre)."

And that's the entire content. So, a space opera is to a horse opera
as science fiction is to westerns.

And the definition of a "horse opera" is that it is "clichéd or
formulaic". Sounds about right for SF as well.

Huh. I was expecting to hear about the Fat Lady singing.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"
Cryptoengineer
2024-06-02 22:16:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Lynn McGuire
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
10. Blood on the Stars by Jay Allan - never heard of it
9. Hyperion by Dan Simmons - yes
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
7. Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold - freaking awesome series
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
5. The Commonwealth Saga by Peter F. Hamilton - I have never read the series
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
3. Old Man's War by John Scalzi - yes
2. The Expanse Series by James S.A. Corey - awesome series
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
1B. Honor Harrington Saga by David Weber - yes
David Weber's Dahak series needs to be a part of this list.
I would swap The Foundation Series and The Vorkosigan series.
I would say that Foundation is *not* Space Opera.  In fact it makes some
fun of Space Opera.
_Triplanetary_ definitely is, but how can you be aware of Doc Smith and
leave a) the Lensman series proper & b) the Skylark series off of a
Space Opera list?
100% agreed. I'm not too convinced that _Hyperion_ (or the four-novel series
that it kicks off) or the Culture qualify as Space Opera, either. I briefly
perused the page and some of its links, but was unable to find what they
were using as a definition of "space opera".
I'm surprised that you think the Culture doesn't meet the standard. It
has miles long spaceships, drama, violence, Big Dumb Objects, Big Smart
Objects, wars, clashes of civilizations, etc.

pt
The Horny Goat
2024-06-03 10:09:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I would say that Foundation is *not* Space Opera. In fact it makes some
fun of Space Opera.
I'm not sure if it's Space Opera but it's certainly early era science
fiction with a strong "acquisition" from Gibbon - honestly the Bel
Riose section in Foundation + Empire was straight out of Gibbon,

(I'm not sure whether he was based on Aetius or Belisarius but
certainly a good dose of each)

I first read the Foundation series when I was 14 and no question I was
halfway in love with Arkady Darrell (of Second Foundation) and was
mature enough to know there was something profoundly creepy when the
Warlord of Kalgan talked about founding a dynasty with her.

(And made enough of an impact on me that I was able to type this up
without reference to the web or the book 50+ years later...)
Scott Dorsey
2024-06-03 22:36:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I would say that Foundation is *not* Space Opera. In fact it makes some
fun of Space Opera.
I'm not sure if it's Space Opera but it's certainly early era science
fiction with a strong "acquisition" from Gibbon - honestly the Bel
Riose section in Foundation + Empire was straight out of Gibbon,
"With a little bit of cribbin' from the works of Edward Gibbon,
And that Greek, Thucydides."
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
The Horny Goat
2024-06-05 21:12:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by The Horny Goat
I'm not sure if it's Space Opera but it's certainly early era science
fiction with a strong "acquisition" from Gibbon - honestly the Bel
Riose section in Foundation + Empire was straight out of Gibbon,
"With a little bit of cribbin' from the works of Edward Gibbon,
And that Greek, Thucydides."
Change "a little bit" to "a whole lotta" and we agree completely heh
heh
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-06-05 21:54:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by The Horny Goat
I'm not sure if it's Space Opera but it's certainly early era science
fiction with a strong "acquisition" from Gibbon - honestly the Bel
Riose section in Foundation + Empire was straight out of Gibbon,
"With a little bit of cribbin' from the works of Edward Gibbon,
And that Greek, Thucydides."
Change "a little bit" to "a whole lotta" and we agree completely heh
heh
Isaac Asimov


THE FOUNDATION OF S.F. SUCCESS

(With apologies to W.S.Gilbert)

If you ask me how to shine in the science-fiction line as a
pro of luster bright,
I say, practice up the lingo of the sciences, by jingo (never
mind if not quite right).
You may talk of Space and Galaxies and tesseractic fallacies
in slick and mystic style,
Though the fans won't understand it, they will all the same
demand it with a softly hopeful smile.

And all the fans will say,
As you walk your spatial way,
If that young man indulges in fights through all the Galaxy,
Why, what a most imaginative type of man that type of man must be.

So success is not a mystery, just brush up on your history, and
borrow day by day.
Take the Empire that was Roman and you'll find it is at
home in all the starry Milky Way.
With a drive that's hyperspatial, through the parsecs you will
race, you'll find that plotting is a breeze,
With a tiny bit of cribbin' from the works of Edward Gibbon
and that Greek, Thycydides.

And all the fans will say,
As you walk your thoughtful way,
If that young man involves himself in authentic history,
Why, what a very learned kind of high IQ, his high IQ must be.

Then eschew all thoughts of passion of a man-and-woman
fashion from your hero's thoughtful mind.
He must spend his time on politics, and thinking up his
shady tricks, and outside that he's blind.
It's enough he's had a mother, other females are a bother,
though they're jeveled and glistery,
They will just distract his dreaming and his nessesary
scheming with that psychohistory.

And all the fans will say
As you walk your narrow way,
If all his yarns restrict themselves to masculinity,
Why, what a most particularly pure young man that pure
young man must be.

1954
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Scott Dorsey
2024-06-05 23:17:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by The Horny Goat
I'm not sure if it's Space Opera but it's certainly early era science
fiction with a strong "acquisition" from Gibbon - honestly the Bel
Riose section in Foundation + Empire was straight out of Gibbon,
"With a little bit of cribbin' from the works of Edward Gibbon,
And that Greek, Thucydides."
Change "a little bit" to "a whole lotta" and we agree completely heh
heh
It doesn't scan then. And "a little bit" is what Asimov wrote in the poem.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Tony Nance
2024-06-01 13:10:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
10. Blood on the Stars by Jay Allan - never heard of it
9. Hyperion by Dan Simmons - yes
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
7. Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold - freaking awesome series
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
5. The Commonwealth Saga by Peter F. Hamilton - I have never read the series
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
3. Old Man's War by John Scalzi - yes
2. The Expanse Series by James S.A. Corey - awesome series
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
1B. Honor Harrington Saga by David Weber - yes
David Weber's Dahak series needs to be a part of this list.
I would swap The Foundation Series and The Vorkosigan series.
Interesting! While there can always be quibbling about positioning, this
is a pretty solid list. It's a little odd to mix individual novels with
series.

I also have never heard of the Allan work(s), but maybe I'll look at
them. I agree with Ted twice - Lensman (full series) or Skylark or both
should be here; and I would also nominate the Exordium series.

For my tastes, the big omission here is the Liaden series. Also, is The
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series considered space opera?

Tony
The Horny Goat
2024-06-03 10:11:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Nance
For my tastes, the big omission here is the Liaden series. Also, is The
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series considered space opera?
I wouldn't put it there - perhaps SF+F where the second F is "farce"
a425couple
2024-06-01 16:26:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
10. Blood on the Stars by Jay Allan - never heard of it
9. Hyperion by Dan Simmons - yes
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
7. Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold - freaking awesome series
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
5. The Commonwealth Saga by Peter F. Hamilton - I have never read the series
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
3. Old Man's War by John Scalzi - yes
2. The Expanse Series by James S.A. Corey - awesome series
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
1B. Honor Harrington Saga by David Weber - yes
I'm wondering why they have not included:
"Worldwar: In the Balance" series by Harry Turtledove ?
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-06-01 17:15:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by a425couple
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
10. Blood on the Stars by Jay Allan - never heard of it
9. Hyperion by Dan Simmons - yes
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
7. Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold - freaking awesome series
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
5. The Commonwealth Saga by Peter F. Hamilton - I have never read the series
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
3. Old Man's War by John Scalzi - yes
2. The Expanse Series by James S.A. Corey - awesome series
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
1B. Honor Harrington Saga by David Weber - yes
"Worldwar: In the Balance" series by Harry Turtledove ?
Very little space action in that. The aliens get here in spaceships,
but we don't have any, and all the action is on the ground.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
a425couple
2024-06-02 02:34:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by a425couple
Post by Lynn McGuire
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
10. Blood on the Stars by Jay Allan - never heard of it
9. Hyperion by Dan Simmons - yes
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
7. Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold - freaking awesome series
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
5. The Commonwealth Saga by Peter F. Hamilton - I have never read the series
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
3. Old Man's War by John Scalzi - yes
2. The Expanse Series by James S.A. Corey - awesome series
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
1B. Honor Harrington Saga by David Weber - yes
"Worldwar: In the Balance" series by Harry Turtledove ?
Very little space action in that. The aliens get here in spaceships,
but we don't have any, and all the action is on the ground.
Thank you. Makes sense. So, "Space Opera" needs to have the
fighting in space. OK.
WolfFan
2024-06-01 16:45:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
10. Blood on the Stars by Jay Allan - never heard of it
9. Hyperion by Dan Simmons - yes
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
7. Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold - freaking awesome series
Mad Miles started as Space Opera (jg) and quickly mutated into something much
more like Pierot In Space. The Little Grey Cells were much more important
than the Big Black Guns. Indeed, the Little Grey Cells were more important
from the very beginning.
Post by Lynn McGuire
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
5. The Commonwealth Saga by Peter F. Hamilton - I have never read the series
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
3. Old Man's War by John Scalzi - yes
2. The Expanse Series by James S.A. Corey - awesome series
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
Asimov has never, ever, written space opera. The closest would be the short
story “I’m in Marsport Without Hilda”. The first three (the _only_
three that I will admit exist) go out of their way to ridicule space opera.
See further ‘Mule, The’.
Post by Lynn McGuire
1B. Honor Harrington Saga by David Weber - yes
David Weber's Dahak series needs to be a part of this list.
I would swap The Foundation Series and The Vorkosigan series.
Lynn
Robert Carnegie
2024-06-10 19:13:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by WolfFan
Post by Lynn McGuire
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
10. Blood on the Stars by Jay Allan - never heard of it
9. Hyperion by Dan Simmons - yes
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
7. Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold - freaking awesome series
Mad Miles started as Space Opera (jg) and quickly mutated into something much
more like Pierot In Space. The Little Grey Cells were much more important
than the Big Black Guns. Indeed, the Little Grey Cells were more important
from the very beginning.
Evidently you mean Poirot.

Not <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierrot>

...I've forgotten again what the sci fi
is called where child survivors in a failing
automated city are being chased by a clown
figure which is a city robot or hologram
or something. At the time, I was impressed.
That may be - without the black leather mask -
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harlequin>
William Hyde
2024-06-01 19:10:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
10. Blood on the Stars by Jay Allan - never heard of it
9. Hyperion by Dan Simmons - yes
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
7. Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold - freaking awesome series
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
5. The Commonwealth Saga by Peter F. Hamilton - I have never read the series
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
3. Old Man's War by John Scalzi - yes
2. The Expanse Series by James S.A. Corey - awesome series
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
1B. Honor Harrington Saga by David Weber - yes
David Weber's Dahak series needs to be a part of this list.
I would swap The Foundation Series and The Vorkosigan series.
Neither the Culture nor the Foundation books are space opera.
Personally I don't think Hyperion is, either.

The Praxis series is though (the one by Williams, not Nimzowitsch) and
belongs on the list.

William Hyde
Lynn McGuire
2024-06-01 19:45:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
10. Blood on the Stars by Jay Allan - never heard of it
9. Hyperion by Dan Simmons - yes
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
7. Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold - freaking awesome series
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
5. The Commonwealth Saga by Peter F. Hamilton - I have never read the series
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
3. Old Man's War by John Scalzi - yes
2. The Expanse Series by James S.A. Corey - awesome series
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
1B. Honor Harrington Saga by David Weber - yes
David Weber's Dahak series needs to be a part of this list.
I would swap The Foundation Series and The Vorkosigan series.
Neither the Culture nor the Foundation books are space opera. Personally
I don't think Hyperion is, either.
The Praxis series is though (the one by Williams, not Nimzowitsch) and
belongs on the list.
William Hyde
What is your definition of Space Opera ?

Lynn
William Hyde
2024-06-01 22:34:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by William Hyde
Post by Lynn McGuire
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
10. Blood on the Stars by Jay Allan - never heard of it
9. Hyperion by Dan Simmons - yes
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
7. Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold - freaking awesome series
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
5. The Commonwealth Saga by Peter F. Hamilton - I have never read the series
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
3. Old Man's War by John Scalzi - yes
2. The Expanse Series by James S.A. Corey - awesome series
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
1B. Honor Harrington Saga by David Weber - yes
David Weber's Dahak series needs to be a part of this list.
I would swap The Foundation Series and The Vorkosigan series.
Neither the Culture nor the Foundation books are space opera.
Personally I don't think Hyperion is, either.
The Praxis series is though (the one by Williams, not Nimzowitsch) and
belongs on the list.
William Hyde
What is your definition of Space Opera ?
Nineteenth century opera, in space.


Lots of drama, lots of action, not much thought. WJW almost puts too
much thought into it, but makes up for it with battles galore.

Bad science is not absolutely required, but is omnipresent.


The foundation and culture novels are way too thinky. Various people in
both series actually think that interstellar war is a bad idea! And
worse, they're right!

Hyperion's central issues don't really bear on the themes of space
opera. You can rule out pretty much any book where poetry is a central
issue, especially if one of the poets is brain damaged.

Brian Aldiss published a two volume anthology of Space Opera stories.
Yes, the genre works at shorter length, and for those of you worrying
about the editor, the works were not at all new-wavy. Recommended for
fans of the genre but check the table of contents before buying - you
may have most of it already. At least you older folks.


William Hyde
Michael F. Stemper
2024-06-02 14:07:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Brian Aldiss published a two volume anthology of Space Opera stories.
Are you possibly thinking of another editor? I have a one-volume anthology,
edited by Aldiss, titled _Space Opera_. Its title, copyright, and contents
pages nowhere say anything about another volume, or about "previously
published in two volumes." Neither does the ISFDB:

<https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?34976>
--
Michael F. Stemper
Life's too important to take seriously.
Robert Woodward
2024-06-02 16:45:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by William Hyde
Brian Aldiss published a two volume anthology of Space Opera stories.
Are you possibly thinking of another editor? I have a one-volume anthology,
edited by Aldiss, titled _Space Opera_. Its title, copyright, and contents
pages nowhere say anything about another volume, or about "previously
<https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?34976>
William Hyde might be thinking of _Space Odysseys_, also edited by Aldis.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
William Hyde
2024-06-02 21:55:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by William Hyde
Brian Aldiss published a two volume anthology of Space Opera stories.
Are you possibly thinking of another editor? I have a one-volume anthology,
edited by Aldiss, titled _Space Opera_. Its title, copyright, and contents
pages nowhere say anything about another volume, or about "previously
It seems that my memory is false in this.

As pointed out below, Aldiss did another two volume anthology, and IIRC
edited both "Penguin Science Fiction" and "More Penguin Science Fiction"
which I bought as a duology, and that may also have influenced me.


William Hyde
Robert Carnegie
2024-06-10 19:16:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by William Hyde
Brian Aldiss published a two volume anthology of Space Opera stories.
Are you possibly thinking of another editor? I have a one-volume anthology,
edited by Aldiss, titled _Space Opera_. Its title, copyright, and contents
pages nowhere say anything about another volume, or about "previously
It seems that my memory is false in this.
As pointed out below, Aldiss did another two volume anthology, and IIRC
edited both "Penguin Science Fiction" and "More Penguin Science Fiction"
which I bought as a duology, and that may also have influenced me.
A curious specific genre. :-)
The Horny Goat
2024-06-19 09:38:42 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 20:16:59 +0100, Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by William Hyde
As pointed out below, Aldiss did another two volume anthology, and IIRC
edited both "Penguin Science Fiction" and "More Penguin Science Fiction"
which I bought as a duology, and that may also have influenced me.
A curious specific genre. :-)
Gee I wonder who his publisher was...
William Hyde
2024-06-19 19:03:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 20:16:59 +0100, Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by William Hyde
As pointed out below, Aldiss did another two volume anthology, and IIRC
edited both "Penguin Science Fiction" and "More Penguin Science Fiction"
which I bought as a duology, and that may also have influenced me.
A curious specific genre. :-)
Gee I wonder who his publisher was...
Puffin, of course.

William Hyde

Christian Weisgerber
2024-06-02 19:35:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
We both should read it. :-)
Post by Lynn McGuire
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
You should rectify that.
Post by Lynn McGuire
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
You can't talk about space opera without Doc Smith, but this is an
odd choice. Why a single novel and not the whole Lensman series?
And if you select an exemplary novel, _Galactic Patrol_ would be
my pick.
Post by Lynn McGuire
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
Whut!?? That's no space opera.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Lynn McGuire
2024-06-03 00:32:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Lynn McGuire
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
We both should read it. :-)
Post by Lynn McGuire
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
You should rectify that.
Post by Lynn McGuire
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
You can't talk about space opera without Doc Smith, but this is an
odd choice. Why a single novel and not the whole Lensman series?
And if you select an exemplary novel, _Galactic Patrol_ would be
my pick.
Post by Lynn McGuire
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
Whut!?? That's no space opera.
What genre is Foundation then ?

Lynn
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-06-03 05:03:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Christian Weisgerber
“Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series”
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
Post by Christian Weisgerber
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
We both should read it. :-)
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
You should rectify that.
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
You can't talk about space opera without Doc Smith, but this is an
odd choice. Why a single novel and not the whole Lensman series?
And if you select an exemplary novel, _Galactic Patrol_ would be
my pick.
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
Whut!?? That's no space opera.
What genre is Foundation then ?
Lynn
SF?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Don
2024-06-07 19:15:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Christian Weisgerber
???Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series???
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
Post by Christian Weisgerber
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
We both should read it. :-)
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
You should rectify that.
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
You can't talk about space opera without Doc Smith, but this is an
odd choice. Why a single novel and not the whole Lensman series?
And if you select an exemplary novel, _Galactic Patrol_ would be
my pick.
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
Whut!?? That's no space opera.
What genre is Foundation then ?
SF?
"What's seen can not be unseen"

"What's done can not be undone" - _Macbeth_ (1606)

"Things done can not be undone"
- Francis Bacon's Promus of Formularies and Elegancies (1596)



[Foundation] is a story about social engineering. A mathematician
and a group of academic intellectuals decide to save civilization
by manipulating history, and their plan leads to a Second Empire.
The idea of giving votes to plebeians simply never comes up.

_Transhuman and Subhuman_ (Wright)

Did Asimov and Campbell create _Foundation_'s psychohistory as an
allegory for Kenesian economics and Baconian scientism, without
realizing it?

Sociological propaganda springs up spontaneously; it
is not the result of deliberate propaganda action.
No propagandists deliberately use this method,
though many practice it unwittingly, and tend in this
direction without realizing it. When the American
producer makes a film, he has certain definite ideas
he wants to express, which are not intended to be
propaganda. Rather, the propaganda element is in the
American way of life with which he is permeated and
which he expresses in his film without realizing it.
We see here the force of expansion of a vigorous
society, which is totalitarian in the sense of the
integration of the individual which leads to
involuntary behavior.

_Propaganda_ (Ellul)

Danke,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-06-07 19:27:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Christian Weisgerber
???Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series???
https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-space-opera-books-and-series-of-all-time/
Post by Christian Weisgerber
8. Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds - I have never read the series
We both should read it. :-)
6. The Culture Series by Iain M. Banks - I have never read the series
You should rectify that.
4. Triplanetary by E.E. "Doc" Smith - this is on my reread list
You can't talk about space opera without Doc Smith, but this is an
odd choice. Why a single novel and not the whole Lensman series?
And if you select an exemplary novel, _Galactic Patrol_ would be
my pick.
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
Whut!?? That's no space opera.
What genre is Foundation then ?
SF?
"What's seen can not be unseen"
"What's done can not be undone" - _Macbeth_ (1606)
"Things done can not be undone"
- Francis Bacon's Promus of Formularies and Elegancies (1596)
[Foundation] is a story about social engineering. A mathematician
and a group of academic intellectuals decide to save civilization
by manipulating history, and their plan leads to a Second Empire.
The idea of giving votes to plebeians simply never comes up.
_Transhuman and Subhuman_ (Wright)
Did Asimov and Campbell create _Foundation_'s psychohistory as an
allegory for Kenesian economics and Baconian scientism, without
realizing it?
Well to be fair, Seldon and the initial Foundation settlers were products
of an Imperial system, so they were never going to be democrats.
I think Foundation had settled down into some sort of oligarchy by the time
the Mule put paid to the Plan, but my memory is hazy.

Of course later Asimov's Lucky Starr series seemed to have rule by "Science
Council" posited as a Good Thing iirc..
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Michael F. Stemper
2024-06-07 21:29:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Don
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Christian Weisgerber
???Top 10 Space Opera Books and Series???
1A. The Foundation Series by Issac Asimov - yes
Whut!?? That's no space opera.
What genre is Foundation then ?
SF?
"What's seen can not be unseen"
"What's done can not be undone" - _Macbeth_ (1606)
"Things done can not be undone"
- Francis Bacon's Promus of Formularies and Elegancies (1596)
[Foundation] is a story about social engineering. A mathematician
and a group of academic intellectuals decide to save civilization
by manipulating history, and their plan leads to a Second Empire.
The idea of giving votes to plebeians simply never comes up.
_Transhuman and Subhuman_ (Wright)
Did Asimov and Campbell create _Foundation_'s psychohistory as an
allegory for Kenesian economics and Baconian scientism, without
realizing it?
Well to be fair, Seldon and the initial Foundation settlers were products
of an Imperial system, so they were never going to be democrats.
I think Foundation had settled down into some sort of oligarchy by the time
the Mule put paid to the Plan, but my memory is hazy.
Well, the Foundation went from a democracy under Salvor Hardin to a plutocracy
in the wake of Hober Mallow, to, as you said, an oligarchy. By the time that
the Mule came along, it was an autocracy under Indbur III. The Mule then absorbed
it into *his* autocracy.

It's not specifically addressed, but by the time "The Search by the Foundation"
takes place, it *seems* to have become more democratic. If I recall correctly,
_Foundation's Edge_ is driven by a Mayoral campaign issue.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Psalm 82:3-4
William Hyde
2024-06-07 23:18:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don
Did Asimov and Campbell create _Foundation_'s psychohistory as an
allegory for Kenesian economics and Baconian scientism, without
realizing it?
According to Asimov, he was studying thermodynamics at the time and was
struck by the fact that while we cannot predict the future behavior of a
given molecule in a gas, we can predict the behavior of the gas itself
to a great degree of precision.

While trying to think of a new idea for JWC he thought of the parallel -
society being the gas, humans the molecules. Could there be a parallel
but more complex version of thermodynamics, which applied to large
numbers of intelligent beings?

It seemed plausible enough for a story. And also gave him a chance to
bash the "Great Man" theories of history, which I believe he didn't like.

He was, or had recently, read Gibbon, and the idea of the decline and
fall of such an empire meshed nicely with the above. If you have such a
science, what better way to use it (assuming for the sake of the plot
that it was discovered too late to prevent the fall).

JWC was very keen on the idea, and proposed that it not be a story, but
a chain of stories.

Aside from encouragement, JWC's main contribution was to insist that
something happen not accounted for in Seldon's mathematics, thus at some
point falsifying the predictions. Asimov was reluctant to do this, but
agreed and the Mule came into the picture.

I don't recall Asimov opining one way or another about economics in this
context, though he'd have been far better off had Keynes managed his
stock portfolio, rather than the incompetents who did so.


William Hyde
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