Possible self-mockery in LotR?

[Michael F. Stemper]

In LotR, Book V, Chapter 8, Aragorn says (in part) the following to
Meriadoc:

[...] If your pack has not been found, then you must send for
the herb-master of this House. And he will tell you that he
did not know that the herb you desire had any virtues, but
that it is called _westmansweed_ by the vulgar, and _galenas_
by the noble, and other names in other tongues more learned,
and after adding a few half-forgotten rhymes that he does not
understand, he will regretfully inform you that there is none
in the House, and he will leave you to reflect on the history
of tongues. [...]

Whew! That's quite a sentence.

Is it possible that JRRT was indulging in a bit of self-mockery here,
given his main area of study, as well as one of his reasons for writing
LotR in the first place, was "the history of tongues"?

[Paul S Person]

On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 07:54:38 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper
In LotR, Book V, Chapter 8, Aragorn says (in part) the following to
[...] If your pack has not been found, then you must send for
the herb-master of this House. And he will tell you that he
did not know that the herb you desire had any virtues, but
that it is called _westmansweed_ by the vulgar, and _galenas_
by the noble, and other names in other tongues more learned,
and after adding a few half-forgotten rhymes that he does not
understand, he will regretfully inform you that there is none
in the House, and he will leave you to reflect on the history
of tongues. [...]
Whew! That's quite a sentence.
Is it possible that JRRT was indulging in a bit of self-mockery here,
given his main area of study, as well as one of his reasons for writing
LotR in the first place, was "the history of tongues"?

He would certainly have been familiar with the type.

But the stated reason for /LOTR/ is to follow up on the success of
/The Hobbit/. At his publisher's urging, IIRC.

And the purpose of the entire legendarium (of which the novels were
offshoots) was to provide England with a mythology. This was, of
course, when he was a young man and just starting out with /The Book
of Lost Tales/.

[Louis Epstein]

Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 07:54:38 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper
In LotR, Book V, Chapter 8, Aragorn says (in part) the following to
[...] If your pack has not been found, then you must send for
the herb-master of this House. And he will tell you that he
did not know that the herb you desire had any virtues, but
that it is called _westmansweed_ by the vulgar, and _galenas_
by the noble, and other names in other tongues more learned,
and after adding a few half-forgotten rhymes that he does not
understand, he will regretfully inform you that there is none
in the House, and he will leave you to reflect on the history
of tongues. [...]
Whew! That's quite a sentence.
Is it possible that JRRT was indulging in a bit of self-mockery here,
given his main area of study, as well as one of his reasons for writing
LotR in the first place, was "the history of tongues"?

He would certainly have been familiar with the type.
But the stated reason for /LOTR/ is to follow up on the success of
/The Hobbit/. At his publisher's urging, IIRC.
And the purpose of the entire legendarium (of which the novels were
offshoots) was to provide England with a mythology. This was, of
course, when he was a young man and just starting out with /The Book
of Lost Tales/.

It has also been said that he came up with the languages first and
the legends were a background made to suit them.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by Michael F. Stemper
Is it possible that JRRT was indulging in a bit of self-mockery here,
given his main area of study, as well as one of his reasons for writing
LotR in the first place, was "the history of tongues"?

Of course! There are a lot more little digs about scholars and especially
language scholars in there too.
--scott

[Michael F. Stemper]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Michael F. Stemper
Is it possible that JRRT was indulging in a bit of self-mockery here,
given his main area of study, as well as one of his reasons for writing
LotR in the first place, was "the history of tongues"?

Of course! There are a lot more little digs about scholars and especially
language scholars in there too.

Cool. I'll have to keep my eyes open for them on my next reading.

[The Horny Goat]

On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 07:54:38 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper
In LotR, Book V, Chapter 8, Aragorn says (in part) the following to
[...] If your pack has not been found, then you must send for
the herb-master of this House. And he will tell you that he
did not know that the herb you desire had any virtues, but
that it is called _westmansweed_ by the vulgar, and _galenas_
by the noble, and other names in other tongues more learned,
and after adding a few half-forgotten rhymes that he does not
understand, he will regretfully inform you that there is none
in the House, and he will leave you to reflect on the history
of tongues. [...]
Whew! That's quite a sentence.
Is it possible that JRRT was indulging in a bit of self-mockery here,
given his main area of study, as well as one of his reasons for writing
LotR in the first place, was "the history of tongues"?

An alternate explanation is that JRRT was being paid by the word....

[Bobbie Sellers]

Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 07:54:38 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper
In LotR, Book V, Chapter 8, Aragorn says (in part) the following to
[...] If your pack has not been found, then you must send for
the herb-master of this House. And he will tell you that he
did not know that the herb you desire had any virtues, but
that it is called _westmansweed_ by the vulgar, and _galenas_
by the noble, and other names in other tongues more learned,
and after adding a few half-forgotten rhymes that he does not
understand, he will regretfully inform you that there is none
in the House, and he will leave you to reflect on the history
of tongues. [...]
Whew! That's quite a sentence.
Is it possible that JRRT was indulging in a bit of self-mockery here,
given his main area of study, as well as one of his reasons for writing
LotR in the first place, was "the history of tongues"?

An alternate explanation is that JRRT was being paid by the word....

That would be a losing deal for a publisher hiring a
Philogist. There is always a longer and more confusing way
to say so.
I think the self-deprecatory jib at the learned is
is just that for the sake of humor.

bliss

[Don_from_AZ]

Post by Bobbie Sellers

Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 07:54:38 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper
In LotR, Book V, Chapter 8, Aragorn says (in part) the following to
[...] If your pack has not been found, then you must send for
the herb-master of this House. And he will tell you that he
did not know that the herb you desire had any virtues, but
that it is called _westmansweed_ by the vulgar, and _galenas_
by the noble, and other names in other tongues more learned,
and after adding a few half-forgotten rhymes that he does not
understand, he will regretfully inform you that there is none
in the House, and he will leave you to reflect on the history
of tongues. [...]
Whew! That's quite a sentence.
Is it possible that JRRT was indulging in a bit of self-mockery here,
given his main area of study, as well as one of his reasons for writing
LotR in the first place, was "the history of tongues"?

An alternate explanation is that JRRT was being paid by the word....

That would be a losing deal for a publisher hiring a
Philogist. There is always a longer and more confusing way
to say so.
I think the self-deprecatory jib at the learned is
is just that for the sake of humor.
bliss

Actually, I think Aragorn was simply poking fun at the herb-master. A
few pages before, Aragorn had asked for "kingsfoil" to treat the Black
Breath in Faramir, and:

Thereupon the herb-master entered. 'Your Lordship asked for
"kingsfoil", as the rustics name it,' he said; or "athelas" in the
noble tongue, or to those who know somewhat of the Valinorean...'

'I do so,' said Aragorn, 'and I care not whether you say "asea
aranion" or "kingsfoil", so long as you have some.'

The herb-master goes on to babble some more, even reciting a verse about
the "black breath" until:

'Then in the name of the king, go and find some old man of less lore
and more wisdom who keeps some in his house!' cried Gandalf.

-Don-

[Michael F. Stemper]

Post by Don_from_AZ

Post by Bobbie Sellers

Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 07:54:38 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper
In LotR, Book V, Chapter 8, Aragorn says (in part) the following to
[...] If your pack has not been found, then you must send for
the herb-master of this House. And he will tell you that he
did not know that the herb you desire had any virtues, but
that it is called _westmansweed_ by the vulgar, and _galenas_
by the noble, and other names in other tongues more learned,
and after adding a few half-forgotten rhymes that he does not
understand, he will regretfully inform you that there is none
in the House, and he will leave you to reflect on the history
of tongues. [...]
Whew! That's quite a sentence.
Is it possible that JRRT was indulging in a bit of self-mockery here,
given his main area of study, as well as one of his reasons for writing
LotR in the first place, was "the history of tongues"?

An alternate explanation is that JRRT was being paid by the word....

That would be a losing deal for a publisher hiring a
Philogist. There is always a longer and more confusing way
to say so.
I think the self-deprecatory jib at the learned is
is just that for the sake of humor.
bliss

Actually, I think Aragorn was simply poking fun at the herb-master. A
few pages before, Aragorn had asked for "kingsfoil" to treat the Black

That is indeed the Watsonian explanation. I was asking about the Doylian
explanation.

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Don_from_AZ

Post by Bobbie Sellers

Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 07:54:38 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper
In LotR, Book V, Chapter 8, Aragorn says (in part) the following to
[...] If your pack has not been found, then you must send for
the herb-master of this House. And he will tell you that he
did not know that the herb you desire had any virtues, but
that it is called _westmansweed_ by the vulgar, and _galenas_
by the noble, and other names in other tongues more learned,
and after adding a few half-forgotten rhymes that he does not
understand, he will regretfully inform you that there is none
in the House, and he will leave you to reflect on the history
of tongues. [...]
Whew! That's quite a sentence.
Is it possible that JRRT was indulging in a bit of self-mockery here,
given his main area of study, as well as one of his reasons for writing
LotR in the first place, was "the history of tongues"?

An alternate explanation is that JRRT was being paid by the word....

That would be a losing deal for a publisher hiring a
Philogist. There is always a longer and more confusing way
to say so.
I think the self-deprecatory jib at the learned is
is just that for the sake of humor.
bliss

Actually, I think Aragorn was simply poking fun at the herb-master. A
few pages before, Aragorn had asked for "kingsfoil" to treat the Black
Thereupon the herb-master entered. 'Your Lordship asked for
"kingsfoil", as the rustics name it,' he said; or "athelas" in the
noble tongue, or to those who know somewhat of the Valinorean...'
'I do so,' said Aragorn, 'and I care not whether you say "asea
aranion" or "kingsfoil", so long as you have some.'
The herb-master goes on to babble some more, even reciting a verse about
'Then in the name of the king, go and find some old man of less lore
and more wisdom who keeps some in his house!' cried Gandalf.
-Don-

So the herb-master may be a portrait of one
or many professors at Oxford, or possibly
of a gardener.

[Paul S Person]

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 22:49:37 -0700, Bobbie Sellers

Post by Bobbie Sellers

Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 07:54:38 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper
In LotR, Book V, Chapter 8, Aragorn says (in part) the following to
[...] If your pack has not been found, then you must send for
the herb-master of this House. And he will tell you that he
did not know that the herb you desire had any virtues, but
that it is called _westmansweed_ by the vulgar, and _galenas_
by the noble, and other names in other tongues more learned,
and after adding a few half-forgotten rhymes that he does not
understand, he will regretfully inform you that there is none
in the House, and he will leave you to reflect on the history
of tongues. [...]
Whew! That's quite a sentence.
Is it possible that JRRT was indulging in a bit of self-mockery here,
given his main area of study, as well as one of his reasons for writing
LotR in the first place, was "the history of tongues"?

An alternate explanation is that JRRT was being paid by the word....

That would be a losing deal for a publisher hiring a
Philogist. There is always a longer and more confusing way
to say so.
I think the self-deprecatory jib at the learned is
is just that for the sake of humor.

For /LOTR/, he wasn't paid much up front, if anything. The publisher
wanted a successor to /The Hobbit/ but WWII's restrictions were still
affecting the publisher, so they gave him a percentage of the profits
instead of a large advance. They expected the book to sink like a
stone.

Boy, were /they/ wrong. Part 1 sold out so fast they had to get a
second, much larger printing, right away. Part 2 continued the trend.
Fans had to wait months for Part 3 while JRRT and his publishers
squabbled over how much of the Appendices they were willing to
include. Since Part 2 ends with the Mother and Father of All
Cliffhangers, the wait must have been very frustrating.

[Bobbie Sellers]

Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 22:49:37 -0700, Bobbie Sellers

Post by Bobbie Sellers

Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 07:54:38 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper
In LotR, Book V, Chapter 8, Aragorn says (in part) the following to
[...] If your pack has not been found, then you must send for
the herb-master of this House. And he will tell you that he
did not know that the herb you desire had any virtues, but
that it is called _westmansweed_ by the vulgar, and _galenas_
by the noble, and other names in other tongues more learned,
and after adding a few half-forgotten rhymes that he does not
understand, he will regretfully inform you that there is none
in the House, and he will leave you to reflect on the history
of tongues. [...]
Whew! That's quite a sentence.
Is it possible that JRRT was indulging in a bit of self-mockery here,
given his main area of study, as well as one of his reasons for writing
LotR in the first place, was "the history of tongues"?

An alternate explanation is that JRRT was being paid by the word....

That would be a losing deal for a publisher hiring a
Philogist. There is always a longer and more confusing way
to say so.
I think the self-deprecatory jib at the learned is
is just that for the sake of humor.

For /LOTR/, he wasn't paid much up front, if anything. The publisher
wanted a successor to /The Hobbit/ but WWII's restrictions were still
affecting the publisher, so they gave him a percentage of the profits
instead of a large advance. They expected the book to sink like a
stone.
Boy, were /they/ wrong. Part 1 sold out so fast they had to get a
second, much larger printing, right away. Part 2 continued the trend.
Fans had to wait months for Part 3 while JRRT and his publishers
squabbled over how much of the Appendices they were willing to
include. Since Part 2 ends with the Mother and Father of All
Cliffhangers, the wait must have been very frustrating.

It was for me, in Sacramento California very frustrating
and I was buying the imported books that broke the copyright
and permitted the sale of mass market paperbacks.

bliss

[The Horny Goat]

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 22:49:37 -0700, Bobbie Sellers

Post by Bobbie Sellers

Post by The Horny Goat

Post by Michael F. Stemper
Is it possible that JRRT was indulging in a bit of self-mockery here,
given his main area of study, as well as one of his reasons for writing
LotR in the first place, was "the history of tongues"?

An alternate explanation is that JRRT was being paid by the word....

That would be a losing deal for a publisher hiring a
Philogist. There is always a longer and more confusing way
to say so.
I think the self-deprecatory jib at the learned is
is just that for the sake of humor.

I dunno - Tolkien's best buddy C S Lewis seems to have done all right
at the cash register for his publishers.

And when I ask in a trivia contest when Lewis died, nobody ever gets
it right though when I give the answer November 22, 1963 the reply is
usually "Isn't that the day JFK...." to which I just say "yup"

[Cryptoengineer]

Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 22:49:37 -0700, Bobbie Sellers

Post by Bobbie Sellers

Post by The Horny Goat

Post by Michael F. Stemper
Is it possible that JRRT was indulging in a bit of self-mockery here,
given his main area of study, as well as one of his reasons for writing
LotR in the first place, was "the history of tongues"?

An alternate explanation is that JRRT was being paid by the word....

That would be a losing deal for a publisher hiring a
Philogist. There is always a longer and more confusing way
to say so.
I think the self-deprecatory jib at the learned is
is just that for the sake of humor.

I dunno - Tolkien's best buddy C S Lewis seems to have done all right
at the cash register for his publishers.
And when I ask in a trivia contest when Lewis died, nobody ever gets
it right though when I give the answer November 22, 1963 the reply is
usually "Isn't that the day JFK...." to which I just say "yup"

As did Aldous Huxley.

pt

[The Horny Goat]

On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 17:19:54 -0400, Cryptoengineer

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by The Horny Goat
And when I ask in a trivia contest when Lewis died, nobody ever gets
it right though when I give the answer November 22, 1963 the reply is
usually "Isn't that the day JFK...." to which I just say "yup"

As did Aldous Huxley.

Wow - I've read plenty of Huxley but did not know that.

JFK, CS Lewis and Huxley...what a great trivia question! ("What do
JFK, CS Lewis and Aldous Huxley have in common?")

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Paul S Person
On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 22:49:37 -0700, Bobbie Sellers

Post by Bobbie Sellers

Post by The Horny Goat

Post by Michael F. Stemper
Is it possible that JRRT was indulging in a bit of self-mockery here,
given his main area of study, as well as one of his reasons for writing
LotR in the first place, was "the history of tongues"?

An alternate explanation is that JRRT was being paid by the word....

That would be a losing deal for a publisher hiring a
Philogist. There is always a longer and more confusing way
to say so.
I think the self-deprecatory jib at the learned is
is just that for the sake of humor.

I dunno - Tolkien's best buddy C S Lewis seems to have done all right
at the cash register for his publishers.

The argument, probably unfair, is that Lewis
himself benefitted disproportionately from
payment by the word. He did call one of his
science fiction characters Ransom, which
may refer to money changing hands unwillingly.
Or not. And it may be Pilgrim's Progress-ish.
Still there's a scene where I was confused as to
whether another character was calling Ransom
by name, or offering money to escape from a
dangerous situation. Not to the author;
I suppose you could try it. Frodo Baggins
has an undershirt approximately made of cash.