Zenna Henderson's religion?

[Michael McGinnis]

Zenna Henderson, whose "People" characters were overtly religious,
once said that everybody imagined that she belonged to their own
religious sect. The standard reference "Contemporary Authors" says she
was Methodist. Yet most sources on the Web, such as
http://www.adherents.com/lit/bk_Zenna.html, say she was Mormon.

The Mormon Literature Database at Brigham Young University
http://mormonlit.lib.byu.edu/lit_author.php?a_id=2767 says "Religion:
born/baptized LDS but married a nonmember and was nonpracticing after
that". She married Richard Harry Henderson in 1943 but was divorced
after seven years of marriage.

Can anyone shed more light on Zenna Henderson's actual religious
beliefs and/or practices? My theory is that she was born into a LDS
family but attended a Methodist church as an adult.

[BPRAL22169]

goomichael

I know that in the years before her death, she attended a charismatic christian
non-affiliated church.
Bill

[Michael McGinnis]

Interesting! How do you know? (I've been editing the Wikipedia article
about Zenna Henderson, so I want to be sure before I add your
information). What else do you know about this gifted writer who
didn't like to talk about herself?

Post by BPRAL22169
goomichael
I know that in the years before her death, she attended a charismatic christian
non-affiliated church.
Bill

[BPRAL22169]

My father ran the group and offered to introduce her.
Bill

[Michael McGinnis]

Amazing! How did you learn that? What else do you know about that
gifted writer who didn't like to talk about herself? (I'm editing the
Zenna Henderson article at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenna_Henderson, and I want to make sure
I have my facts right).

Post by BPRAL22169
goomichael
I know that in the years before her death, she attended a charismatic christian
non-affiliated church.
Bill

[BPRAL22169]

Michael McGinnis

Post by Michael McGinnis
Amazing! How did you learn that? What else do you know about that
gifted writer who didn't like to talk about herself?

Let me know if the reply I posted several days ago did not get on your
newsreader. I said that my father was the minister of tht group and offered to
introduce me.

He knew of my interest in Henderson because I had all four of her books around
the house and had conducted an in-print interview of her for a fanzine some
years earlier. She came up in casual conversation one day, but I can't recall
now what brought her up -- the ministry was headquartered in a small community
south of Phoenix, and I was surprised to hear that they ranged that far south.
I vaguely recall that she was no longer teaching at the time.

I tried to go to the link, to see if there was anything I might know that
wasn't in your edit, but Wikipedia says it doesn't have anything on Z.H.
Bill

[David E. Siegel]

***@biographiks.com (Michael McGinnis) wrote in message news:<***@posting.google.com>...
<snip>

Post by Michael McGinnis
I'm editing the
Zenna Henderson article at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenna_Henderson, and I want to make sure
I have my facts right).

I note in the above linked article the statement that "The idea that
telepathic contact would cause a loss or merging of identity is almost
unique, appearing in only one other story, Murray Leinster's "The
Leader" (published in Astounding, February 1960)."

I am pretty sure that I have seen thsi idea in a number of other SF
works, although I can't call any to mind off-hand (Unless you gount
the group identity of the Little People in RAH's Methuslua's
Children). Possibly most examples of this idea were later. (There was
somethign like this idea in Zahn's "Distant Friends" IIRC.

Can people here suggest other examples of this idea?

-DES

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by David E. Siegel
<snip>

Post by Michael McGinnis
I'm editing the
Zenna Henderson article at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenna_Henderson, and I want to make sure
I have my facts right).

I note in the above linked article the statement that "The idea that
telepathic contact would cause a loss or merging of identity is almost
unique, appearing in only one other story, Murray Leinster's "The
Leader" (published in Astounding, February 1960)."
I am pretty sure that I have seen thsi idea in a number of other SF
works, although I can't call any to mind off-hand (Unless you gount
the group identity of the Little People in RAH's Methuslua's
Children). Possibly most examples of this idea were later. (There was
somethign like this idea in Zahn's "Distant Friends" IIRC.

I can think of one: _Anything You Can Do_ by Darrell T. Langart
(Randall Garrett with the serial numbers lightly covered by a
piece of masking tape). Identical twins; one is severely injured
in early childhood by a handwavium accident. The doctors have
hopes that therapy might help him, but in the meantime he's a
basket case. He links with, and identifies with, his normal,
healthy brother. There comes a time when the PTB want to break
the link (they have a sufficient reason) and they do so by giving
the healthy brother an alias that sounds like the disabled
brother's name. The latter doesn't want to have anything to do
with anybody that sounds like his feeble self, so he breaks off
the link. Date, hmm, Astounding 1962, hb 1963.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com

[Mike Schilling]

Post by David E. Siegel

Post by David E. Siegel
I note in the above linked article the statement that "The idea that
telepathic contact would cause a loss or merging of identity is almost
unique, appearing in only one other story, Murray Leinster's "The
Leader" (published in Astounding, February 1960)."

I am pretty sure that I have seen thsi idea in a number of other SF
works, although I can't call any to mind off-hand (Unless you gount
the group identity of the Little People in RAH's Methuslua's
Children). Possibly most examples of this idea were later. (There was
somethign like this idea in Zahn's "Distant Friends" IIRC.

There's a Kuttner story called "Dream's End" in which a psychologist,
attempting to cure a psychotic telepathically, instead becomes infected with
the psychosis.

[BPRAL22169]

Mike Schilling

Post by Mike Schilling
There's a Kuttner story called "Dream's End" in which a psychologist,
attempting to cure a psychotic telepathically, instead becomes infected with
the psychosis.

I hadn't realized Kuttner did that -- probably first. It's a trope that's used
over and over again -- recently in a Twilight Zone episode, I think. Delaney
did a short novel on that theme in the mid-sixties -- memory is dim, but The
Einstein Intersection?
Bill

[Mike Schilling]

Post by BPRAL22169
Mike Schilling

Post by Mike Schilling
There's a Kuttner story called "Dream's End" in which a psychologist,
attempting to cure a psychotic telepathically, instead becomes infected with
the psychosis.

I hadn't realized Kuttner did that -- probably first. It's a trope that's used
over and over again -- recently in a Twilight Zone episode, I think.
Delaney
did a short novel on that theme in the mid-sixties -- memory is dim, but The
Einstein Intersection?

I don't think so (though it's not as if I could tell you what TEI *is*
really about.).

[Dave Goldman]

Post by BPRAL22169
Mike Schilling

Post by Mike Schilling
There's a Kuttner story called "Dream's End" in which a psychologist,
attempting to cure a psychotic telepathically, instead becomes infected with
the psychosis.

I hadn't realized Kuttner did that -- probably first. It's a trope that's used
over and over again -- recently in a Twilight Zone episode, I think. Delaney
did a short novel on that theme in the mid-sixties -- memory is dim, but The
Einstein Intersection?

Nope. But there's something _vaguely_ similar to this in Delany's _Babel-17_.
Not a psychologist, though. The protagonist mind-melds with another
character; both of them have been infected with a language that causes
their thought processes to create "schizoid" subpersonalities.

However, I bet you're actually thinking of Zelazny's _The Dream Master_.

- Dave Goldman
Portland, OR

[BPRAL22169]

Post by Dave Goldman
However, I bet you're actually thinking of Zelazny's _The Dream Master_.

Ah, you're right: that's it. I read those books at the same time, as recent
fiction, in college, which would be 1969, so they blur somewhat in my
recollection.
Bill

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by BPRAL22169

Post by BPRAL22169
Mike Schilling

Post by Mike Schilling
There's a Kuttner story called "Dream's End" in which a psychologist,
attempting to cure a psychotic telepathically, instead becomes infected with
the psychosis.

I hadn't realized Kuttner did that -- probably first. It's a trope

that's used

Post by BPRAL22169
over and over again -- recently in a Twilight Zone episode, I think. Delaney
did a short novel on that theme in the mid-sixties -- memory is dim, but The
Einstein Intersection?

Nope. But there's something _vaguely_ similar to this in Delany's _Babel-17_.
Not a psychologist, though. The protagonist mind-melds with another
character; both of them have been infected with a language that causes
their thought processes to create "schizoid" subpersonalities.
However, I bet you're actually thinking of Zelazny's _The Dream Master_.

There's a Star Trek novel, now which is it - the one where
the Romulans are stealing Vulcans out of ion storms and somehow
using them to build a giant mind-control brain - where the Romulan
Commander who reveals this to the Enterprise crew undergoes a mind
meld with Spock by way of proof of sincerity - and the experience
is represented as one of being a single mind with two sets
of life-memories and a sense of purpose coming mostly from
one partner in the meld, Spock - reflecting on, thinking about,
examining, the Commander's recent memories, and checking out
her story.

I've read other descriptions of the Vulcan meld that are similar -
and, come to think, on screen we've seen Spock wake up not quite
sure who he is. At least, that's in one of the books of the show -
the James Blish versions - "The Paradise Syndrome" was the episode,
I think.

Further back... does the mental disturbance in H. P. Lovecraft
stories ever run to questioning one's own identity as a human
being?

[Richard Todd]

Post by Robert Carnegie
There's a Star Trek novel, now which is it - the one where
the Romulans are stealing Vulcans out of ion storms and somehow
using them to build a giant mind-control brain - where the Romulan
Commander who reveals this to the Enterprise crew undergoes a mind
meld with Spock by way of proof of sincerity - and the experience
is represented as one of being a single mind with two sets
of life-memories and a sense of purpose coming mostly from
one partner in the meld, Spock - reflecting on, thinking about,
examining, the Commander's recent memories, and checking out
her story.

This is _My Enemy, My Ally_ by Diane Duane.

[David E. Siegel]

Post by Robert Carnegie
There's a Star Trek novel, now which is it - the one where
the Romulans are stealing Vulcans out of ion storms and somehow
using them to build a giant mind-control brain - where the Romulan
Commander who reveals this to the Enterprise crew undergoes a mind
meld with Spock by way of proof of sincerity - and the experience
is represented as one of being a single mind with two sets
of life-memories and a sense of purpose coming mostly from
one partner in the meld, Spock - reflecting on, thinking about,
examining, the Commander's recent memories, and checking out
her story.

IIRC, that was _My Enemy, My Ally- by Diane Duane. There are IIRC
three direct sequels, and the backstory is shared with her _Spock's
World_. But I think these stories were oficially decalred non-cannon
by the the BTB at paramount or something. I dound them amoung the
more interesting of the ST books.

Post by Robert Carnegie
I've read other descriptions of the Vulcan meld that are similar -
and, come to think, on screen we've seen Spock wake up not quite
sure who he is.

I think you are right, but only very briefly. No long-term identity
confusion or melding.

-DES

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by David E. Siegel

Post by Robert Carnegie
There's a Star Trek novel, now which is it - the one where
the Romulans are stealing Vulcans out of ion storms and somehow
using them to build a giant mind-control brain - where the Romulan
Commander who reveals this to the Enterprise crew undergoes a mind
meld with Spock by way of proof of sincerity - and the experience
is represented as one of being a single mind with two sets
of life-memories and a sense of purpose coming mostly from
one partner in the meld, Spock - reflecting on, thinking about,
examining, the Commander's recent memories, and checking out
her story.

IIRC, that was _My Enemy, My Ally- by Diane Duane. There are IIRC
three direct sequels, and the backstory is shared with her _Spock's
World_. But I think these stories were oficially decalred non-cannon
by the the BTB at paramount or something. I found them among the
more interesting of the ST books.

Policy was that no books are canon, I think. IIRC, Duane went on
to kill off T'Pau and establish a particular role for Sarek's wife
Amanda that would constrain other writers' use of the characters.
For that matter, The Romulan Commander has been variously alive or
dead in different Trek spin-off novels. If any two books fit
together, I think it's a bonus. I've seen Dr. M'Benga permanently
insane and homicidal; I've seen the Klingon Empire frozen in time
by the Organians, forever...

Post by David E. Siegel

Post by Robert Carnegie
I've read other descriptions of the Vulcan meld that are similar -
and, come to think, on screen we've seen Spock wake up not quite
sure who he is.

I think you are right, but only very briefly. No long-term identity
confusion or melding.

Not when you know what you're doing. But isn't this playing out
differently in _Enterprise_?

[Nancy Lebovitz]

Post by BPRAL22169
Mike Schilling

Post by Mike Schilling
There's a Kuttner story called "Dream's End" in which a psychologist,
attempting to cure a psychotic telepathically, instead becomes infected with
the psychosis.

I hadn't realized Kuttner did that -- probably first. It's a trope that's used
over and over again -- recently in a Twilight Zone episode, I think. Delaney
did a short novel on that theme in the mid-sixties -- memory is dim, but The
Einstein Intersection?

You're probably thinking of Zelazny's "The Dream Master".

[Luke Webber]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by David E. Siegel
<snip>

Post by Michael McGinnis
I'm editing the
Zenna Henderson article at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenna_Henderson, and I want to make sure
I have my facts right).

I note in the above linked article the statement that "The idea that
telepathic contact would cause a loss or merging of identity is almost
unique, appearing in only one other story, Murray Leinster's "The
Leader" (published in Astounding, February 1960)."
I am pretty sure that I have seen thsi idea in a number of other SF
works, although I can't call any to mind off-hand (Unless you gount
the group identity of the Little People in RAH's Methuslua's
Children). Possibly most examples of this idea were later. (There was
somethign like this idea in Zahn's "Distant Friends" IIRC.

I can think of one: _Anything You Can Do_ by Darrell T. Langart
(Randall Garrett with the serial numbers lightly covered by a
piece of masking tape). Identical twins; one is severely injured
in early childhood by a handwavium accident. The doctors have
hopes that therapy might help him, but in the meantime he's a
basket case. He links with, and identifies with, his normal,
healthy brother. There comes a time when the PTB want to break
the link (they have a sufficient reason) and they do so by giving
the healthy brother an alias that sounds like the disabled
brother's name. The latter doesn't want to have anything to do
with anybody that sounds like his feeble self, so he breaks off
the link. Date, hmm, Astounding 1962, hb 1963.

How about Ted Sturgeon's _More Than Human_, and the male/female pairings
in Doc Smith's Skylark books.

Luke

[David E. Siegel]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I can think of one: _Anything You Can Do_ by Darrell T. Langart
(Randall Garrett with the serial numbers lightly covered by a
piece of masking tape). Identical twins; one is severely injured
in early childhood by a handwavium accident. The doctors have
hopes that therapy might help him, but in the meantime he's a
basket case. He links with, and identifies with, his normal,
healthy brother. There comes a time when the PTB want to break
the link (they have a sufficient reason) and they do so by giving
the healthy brother an alias that sounds like the disabled
brother's name. The latter doesn't want to have anything to do
with anybody that sounds like his feeble self, so he breaks off
the link. Date, hmm, Astounding 1962, hb 1963.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California

I remember that one -- i read it in a seperate book republication
under Randall Garrett's name (His _Starship Death_ was reprinted at
the same time by the same publisher, it was also first published under
the DTL name.) I think the title may have been changed for the
republication.

I did enjoy much of it, but I felt that the ending was rather a cheat.

Near the end (well say 2/3rds through, IIRC) there is a scene where
the major characters excahnge quoted lines of dialog which motivate
them to resume their task when things are looking black. I always
wondered what the source of the lines was. One style i thought they
maight be from Jack london's _Assassination Bureau_ (I think i have
that title slightly wrong -- the unfinished story about a group of
very moral hitmen fo hire -- they only take the contract if you first
prove that the victim deserves to die. Then someone hires them to
kill the head of the Bureau. much confusion ensures.) But they don't
seem to be from that source. Does anyone know the source? I will dig
up the book and post the quoted dialog if possible.


-DES

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by David E. Siegel

I can think of one: _Anything You Can Do_ by Darrell T. Langart...

Near the end (well say 2/3rds through, IIRC) there is a scene where
the major characters excahnge quoted lines of dialog which motivate
them to resume their task when things are looking black. I always
wondered what the source of the lines was.

Is it

"No. You merely remind me of the fact and leave the rest to my
sense of duty."

"Your sense of duty!"

"Don't put it on that foooting! As I was merciful to you just
now, be merciful to me! I implore you not to insist on the
letter of your bond just as the cup of happiness is at my lips!"

"We insist n nothing; we contnt oourselves with pointing out your
duty."

"Well, you have appeal to my sense of uty, an my uty is all too
cvlaer. I abhor your infamous calling; I shuder at the thought
that I have ever been mixe up with it; but duty is before all--at
any price I will do my duty."

"Bravely spoken! Come, you are one of us once more."

"Lead on. I follow."

Is that the passage you were thinking of?

That's from _The Pirates of Penzance_ by Gilbert and Sullivan.


Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com

[David E. Siegel]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by David E. Siegel

I can think of one: _Anything You Can Do_ by Darrell T. Langart...

Near the end (well say 2/3rds through, IIRC) there is a scene where
the major characters excahnge quoted lines of dialog which motivate
them to resume their task when things are looking black. I always
wondered what the source of the lines was.

Is it
"No. You merely remind me of the fact and leave the rest to my
sense of duty."
"Your sense of duty!"
"Don't put it on that foooting! As I was merciful to you just
now, be merciful to me! I implore you not to insist on the
letter of your bond just as the cup of happiness is at my lips!"
"We insist n nothing; we contnt oourselves with pointing out your
duty."
"Well, you have appeal to my sense of uty, an my uty is all too
cvlaer. I abhor your infamous calling; I shuder at the thought
that I have ever been mixe up with it; but duty is before all--at
any price I will do my duty."
"Bravely spoken! Come, you are one of us once more."
"Lead on. I follow."
Is that the passage you were thinking of?
That's from _The Pirates of Penzance_ by Gilbert and Sullivan.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California

Yes that is the passage I had in mind. Is it really from _The Pirates
of Penzance_? I am croggled. But I should have spotted it long ago.
Thanks very much!

-DES

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by David E. Siegel
<snip>

Post by Michael McGinnis
I'm editing the
Zenna Henderson article at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenna_Henderson, and I want to make sure
I have my facts right).

I note in the above linked article the statement that "The idea that
telepathic contact would cause a loss or merging of identity is almost
unique, appearing in only one other story, Murray Leinster's "The
Leader" (published in Astounding, February 1960)."
I am pretty sure that I have seen thsi idea in a number of other SF
works, although I can't call any to mind off-hand (Unless you gount
the group identity of the Little People in RAH's Methuslua's
Children). Possibly most examples of this idea were later. (There was
somethign like this idea in Zahn's "Distant Friends" IIRC.
Can people here suggest other examples of this idea?
-DES

Hmm, how about Niven's _World of Ptavvs_? I forget the circumstances, but
somehow a human mind melds with a "Slaver". The Slaver's powers of compulsion
don't come into play, but since he is used to taking over others, his
"memories" take over from the human personality.


Ted

[joy beeson]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Hmm, how about Niven's _World of Ptavvs_? I forget the circumstances, but
somehow a human mind melds with a "Slaver". The Slaver's powers of compulsion
don't come into play, but since he is used to taking over others, his
"memories" take over from the human personality.

He was a telepath who was accustomed to having no trouble
sorting his own memories out from those he interviewed.
When interviewing another telepath for the first time, he
was caught off guard.

At the end of the story, he consults all the people he's
been melded with before he decides gb fnpevsvpr n fynir gb
xrrc gur fynire'f fynir-znxvat nzcyvsvre bhg bs pvephyngvba.

Joy Beeson

[J.B. Moreno]

Post by David E. Siegel
<snip>

Post by Michael McGinnis
I'm editing the
Zenna Henderson article at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenna_Henderson, and I want to make sure
I have my facts right).

I note in the above linked article the statement that "The idea that
telepathic contact would cause a loss or merging of identity is almost
unique, appearing in only one other story, Murray Leinster's "The
Leader" (published in Astounding, February 1960)."

[...]

Post by David E. Siegel
Can people here suggest other examples of this idea?

It's a recent example, but: Anita Blake is worried about this happening
in earlier stories, and in the current book, _Incubus Dreams_, it seems
to be happengin, but she doesn't fear it so much....

[Peter H. Granzeau]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Bernard Peek]

Post by David E. Siegel
<snip>

Post by Michael McGinnis
I'm editing the
Zenna Henderson article at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenna_Henderson, and I want to make sure
I have my facts right).

I note in the above linked article the statement that "The idea that
telepathic contact would cause a loss or merging of identity is almost
unique, appearing in only one other story, Murray Leinster's "The
Leader" (published in Astounding, February 1960)."
I am pretty sure that I have seen thsi idea in a number of other SF
works, although I can't call any to mind off-hand (Unless you gount
the group identity of the Little People in RAH's Methuslua's
Children). Possibly most examples of this idea were later. (There was
somethign like this idea in Zahn's "Distant Friends" IIRC.
Can people here suggest other examples of this idea?

I think this is related to John Brunner's curative telepaths. There's a
fix-up published as _The Whole Man_ in the US and _Telepathist_ in the
UK.