Discussion:
(ReacTor) Five Thinly Veiled Versions of Rome in SF
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James Nicoll
2024-11-11 17:10:44 UTC
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Five Thinly Veiled Versions of Rome in SF

For some science fiction authors, all roads really do lead to Rome.

https://reactormag.com/five-thinly-veiled-versions-of-rome-in-sf/
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William Hyde
2024-11-11 20:00:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Five Thinly Veiled Versions of Rome in SF
For some science fiction authors, all roads really do lead to Rome.
https://reactormag.com/five-thinly-veiled-versions-of-rome-in-sf/
Not just in science fiction. Gondor and Arnor are clearly drawn in
large part from the Eastern and Western Roman Empire.

And Harry Turtledove wrote at least two Byzantine-inspired series that I
can think of.

I can't at the moment think of where Asimov used Thucydides. Perhaps he
just needed him for the rhyme.

Then there's the explicit use of Rome in DeCamp's "Lest Darkness Fall".
It was amusing to read Gibbon and think of these Goths as pictured in
DeCamp's novel. Entirely not to my surprise, LSDC knew his stuff.

It is remarkable how many of these feature late Rome, and not the Rome
of the Republic.

Well, Alan Yates did write an sf novel "Coriolanus, the Chariot", but
IIRC that had nothing to do with Rome.


William Hyde
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-11-11 20:12:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by James Nicoll
Five Thinly Veiled Versions of Rome in SF
For some science fiction authors, all roads really do lead to Rome.
https://reactormag.com/five-thinly-veiled-versions-of-rome-in-sf/
Not just in science fiction. Gondor and Arnor are clearly drawn in
large part from the Eastern and Western Roman Empire.
And Harry Turtledove wrote at least two Byzantine-inspired series that I
can think of.
I can't at the moment think of where Asimov used Thucydides. Perhaps he
just needed him for the rhyme.
Then there's the explicit use of Rome in DeCamp's "Lest Darkness Fall".
It was amusing to read Gibbon and think of these Goths as pictured in
DeCamp's novel. Entirely not to my surprise, LSDC knew his stuff.
It is remarkable how many of these feature late Rome, and not the Rome
of the Republic.
Well, Alan Yates did write an sf novel "Coriolanus, the Chariot", but
IIRC that had nothing to do with Rome.
William Hyde
The Turtledove was Videssos. Of course he did an actual Byzantine series
as well.

Not to mention van Vogt's "Empire Of the Atom" stories and the current
Glass Immortals series by Brian McClellan.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
William Hyde
2024-11-12 04:43:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by William Hyde
Post by James Nicoll
Five Thinly Veiled Versions of Rome in SF
For some science fiction authors, all roads really do lead to Rome.
https://reactormag.com/five-thinly-veiled-versions-of-rome-in-sf/
Not just in science fiction. Gondor and Arnor are clearly drawn in
large part from the Eastern and Western Roman Empire.
And Harry Turtledove wrote at least two Byzantine-inspired series that I
can think of.
I can't at the moment think of where Asimov used Thucydides. Perhaps he
just needed him for the rhyme.
Then there's the explicit use of Rome in DeCamp's "Lest Darkness Fall".
It was amusing to read Gibbon and think of these Goths as pictured in
DeCamp's novel. Entirely not to my surprise, LSDC knew his stuff.
It is remarkable how many of these feature late Rome, and not the Rome
of the Republic.
Well, Alan Yates did write an sf novel "Coriolanus, the Chariot", but
IIRC that had nothing to do with Rome.
William Hyde
The Turtledove was Videssos.
But Videssos is a one-to-one mapping of Byzantium.

William Hyde
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-11-12 04:58:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by William Hyde
Post by James Nicoll
Five Thinly Veiled Versions of Rome in SF
For some science fiction authors, all roads really do lead to Rome.
https://reactormag.com/five-thinly-veiled-versions-of-rome-in-sf/
Not just in science fiction. Gondor and Arnor are clearly drawn in
large part from the Eastern and Western Roman Empire.
And Harry Turtledove wrote at least two Byzantine-inspired series that I
can think of.
I can't at the moment think of where Asimov used Thucydides. Perhaps he
just needed him for the rhyme.
Then there's the explicit use of Rome in DeCamp's "Lest Darkness Fall".
It was amusing to read Gibbon and think of these Goths as pictured in
DeCamp's novel. Entirely not to my surprise, LSDC knew his stuff.
It is remarkable how many of these feature late Rome, and not the Rome
of the Republic.
Well, Alan Yates did write an sf novel "Coriolanus, the Chariot", but
IIRC that had nothing to do with Rome.
William Hyde
The Turtledove was Videssos.
But Videssos is a one-to-one mapping of Byzantium.
William Hyde
Yes. I was identifying one of Turtledove's "two Byzantine-inspired series".
(I didn't bother mentioning the one with "Byzantium" in the actual series
title).
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
The Horny Goat
2024-11-18 09:54:21 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Nov 2024 15:00:48 -0500, William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by James Nicoll
Five Thinly Veiled Versions of Rome in SF
For some science fiction authors, all roads really do lead to Rome.
https://reactormag.com/five-thinly-veiled-versions-of-rome-in-sf/
Not just in science fiction. Gondor and Arnor are clearly drawn in
large part from the Eastern and Western Roman Empire.
Yup
Post by William Hyde
And Harry Turtledove wrote at least two Byzantine-inspired series that I
can think of.
Yes but those were actually placed in the Byzantine empire not some
alt-Byzantium.
Post by William Hyde
I can't at the moment think of where Asimov used Thucydides. Perhaps he
just needed him for the rhyme.
Which work are you referring to? Foundation, Foundation and Empire and
Second Foundation all appropriated a lot of material from Gibbon -
especially in the sections about Bel Riose in Foundation and Empire.

(I read Gibbon AFTER I had read F+E before I had read about Belisarius
so reading his story AFTER I had read about Bel Riose was a 'deja vu
all over again' moment for me)
Post by William Hyde
It is remarkable how many of these feature late Rome, and not the Rome
of the Republic.
Not really all that surprising - the Foundation novels were primarily
about the decline of one empire and the rise of a new one. And that
series was extremely influential for later authors.

And yes I understand that you're not just talking about Asimov and
Foundation but that series was definitely influential for later
writers.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-11-18 13:28:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Mon, 11 Nov 2024 15:00:48 -0500, William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by James Nicoll
Five Thinly Veiled Versions of Rome in SF
For some science fiction authors, all roads really do lead to Rome.
https://reactormag.com/five-thinly-veiled-versions-of-rome-in-sf/
Not just in science fiction. Gondor and Arnor are clearly drawn in
large part from the Eastern and Western Roman Empire.
Yup
Post by William Hyde
And Harry Turtledove wrote at least two Byzantine-inspired series that I
can think of.
Yes but those were actually placed in the Byzantine empire not some
alt-Byzantium.
Post by William Hyde
I can't at the moment think of where Asimov used Thucydides. Perhaps he
just needed him for the rhyme.
Which work are you referring to? Foundation, Foundation and Empire and
Second Foundation all appropriated a lot of material from Gibbon -
especially in the sections about Bel Riose in Foundation and Empire.
That was referring to Asimov's famous poem "The Foundation of SF Success"
which got deleted somewhere in the thread:

So success is not a mystery,
just brush up on your history,
and borrow day by day.

Take the Empire that was Roman
and you'll find it is at home in
all the starry Milky Way.
With a drive that's hyperspatial,
through the parsecs you will race,
you'll find that plotting is a breeze,
With a tiny bit of cribbin'
from the works of Edward Gibbon
and that Greek, Thycydides.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Lynn McGuire
2024-11-12 05:37:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Five Thinly Veiled Versions of Rome in SF
For some science fiction authors, all roads really do lead to Rome.
https://reactormag.com/five-thinly-veiled-versions-of-rome-in-sf/
Wow ! Four for five for me. The Asimov, the Anderson, the Drake, and
the Thomas.

Lynn
Jay E. Morris
2024-11-12 14:30:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Five Thinly Veiled Versions of Rome in SF
For some science fiction authors, all roads really do lead to Rome.
https://reactormag.com/five-thinly-veiled-versions-of-rome-in-sf/
Wow !  Four for five for me.  The Asimov, the Anderson, the Drake, and
the Thomas.
Lynn
I think the same, although the Thomas is very vague.
Lynn McGuire
2024-11-12 20:45:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay E. Morris
Post by James Nicoll
Five Thinly Veiled Versions of Rome in SF
For some science fiction authors, all roads really do lead to Rome.
https://reactormag.com/five-thinly-veiled-versions-of-rome-in-sf/
Wow !  Four for five for me.  The Asimov, the Anderson, the Drake, and
the Thomas.
Lynn
I think the same, although the Thomas is very vague.
I just saw it the other day when I was looking through the boxed books
in my garage.

Lynn
Lynn McGuire
2024-11-12 20:46:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay E. Morris
Post by James Nicoll
Five Thinly Veiled Versions of Rome in SF
For some science fiction authors, all roads really do lead to Rome.
https://reactormag.com/five-thinly-veiled-versions-of-rome-in-sf/
Wow !  Four for five for me.  The Asimov, the Anderson, the Drake, and
the Thomas.
Lynn
I think the same, although the Thomas is very vague.
I just saw it the other day when I was looking through the boxed books
in my garage.

Lynn
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