Books Banned in Utah.

[Titus G]

Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.

Utah has decided those books are inappropriate for state funded
pre-college school libraries. That is a choice the State Board of
Education is entitled to make.

Any kids who want a copy can browbeat their parents into buying one,
or find a copy in the adult section of a public library.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books

What right does any state have to do that?

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books

What right does any state have to do that?

The same as you, their money, their choices.

Lynn

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/
e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-
BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books

What right does any state have to do that?

The same as you, their money, their choices.

You mean, "their money, their imposing their choices on everyone else".

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/
e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-
BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books

What right does any state have to do that?

The same as you, their money, their choices.

You mean, "their money, their imposing their choices on everyone else".

That's how public education works.

[Titus G]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/
e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-
BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books

What right does any state have to do that?

The same as you, their money, their choices.

You mean, "their money, their imposing their choices on everyone else".

That's how public education works.

The ban also applies to Charter Schools.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Titus G

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/
e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-
BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books

What right does any state have to do that?

The same as you, their money, their choices.

You mean, "their money, their imposing their choices on everyone else".

That's how public education works.

The ban also applies to Charter Schools.

Which are public education.

[Titus G]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/
e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-
BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books

What right does any state have to do that?

The same as you, their money, their choices.

You mean, "their money, their imposing their choices on everyone else".

That's how public education works.

The ban also applies to Charter Schools.

Which are public education.

I know nothing about US charter schools but in Aotearoa they now have
freedom from public school rules and curriculum.

[Paul S Person]

Post by Titus G

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/
e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-
BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books

What right does any state have to do that?

The same as you, their money, their choices.

You mean, "their money, their imposing their choices on everyone else".

That's how public education works.

The ban also applies to Charter Schools.

Which are public education.

I know nothing about US charter schools but in Aotearoa they now have
freedom from public school rules and curriculum.

They have no gummint-imposed standards as to what subjects they are to
teach? Their pupils are exempt from any testing done to see if they
are learning at the proper rate?

That they are not being micromanaged would not be surprising. That
they are totally free to do whatever they want would be.

[Paul S Person]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/
e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-
BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books

What right does any state have to do that?

The same as you, their money, their choices.

You mean, "their money, their imposing their choices on everyone else".

That's how public education works.

That's how /lot's/ of things work. Including private education.

"He who pays the piper calls the tune"

(I'm not saying I agree with this sort of idiocy, merely that they
have the right and responsibility to do this. That they are doing it
idiotically is a different issue from their having the right to do
it.)

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire
The same as you, their money, their choices.

You mean, "their money, their imposing their choices on everyone else".

The argument I would find more reasonable is that the state is infringing
upon the rights and jobs of their own employees (namely state librarians).
It's their right to do that, but it's bad form and historically has never
worked out well.
--scott

[D]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/
e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-
BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books

What right does any state have to do that?

The same as you, their money, their choices.

You mean, "their money, their imposing their choices on everyone else".

That is basically what politics and democracy is all about. A majority
imposing their choices on a minority, for better and for worse.

[Paul S Person]

Post by D

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/
e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-
BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books

What right does any state have to do that?

The same as you, their money, their choices.

You mean, "their money, their imposing their choices on everyone else".

That is basically what politics and democracy is all about. A majority
imposing their choices on a minority, for better and for worse.

In a general sense, yes. However, the minority has rights that the
majority cannot infringe by law. There are, IOW, limits. At least, in
the USA there are. YMMV.

[D]

Post by Paul S Person

Post by D

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/
e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-
BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books

What right does any state have to do that?

The same as you, their money, their choices.

You mean, "their money, their imposing their choices on everyone else".

That is basically what politics and democracy is all about. A majority
imposing their choices on a minority, for better and for worse.

In a general sense, yes. However, the minority has rights that the
majority cannot infringe by law. There are, IOW, limits. At least, in
the USA there are. YMMV.

True, I imagine the US is better than europe in that regard. However, it
is a slow system, so many rights can be trampled on, before the courts
reach the conclusion that they have been trampled on. But once they do, at
least there might be a small "sorry", and then the world moves on. ;)

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Paul S Person

Post by D

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/
e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-
BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books

What right does any state have to do that?

The same as you, their money, their choices.

You mean, "their money, their imposing their choices on everyone else".

That is basically what politics and democracy is all about. A majority
imposing their choices on a minority, for better and for worse.

In a general sense, yes. However, the minority has rights that the
majority cannot infringe by law.

For the moment....

[Paul S Person]

On Thu, 8 Aug 2024 17:51:28 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Paul S Person

Post by D

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/
e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-
BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books

What right does any state have to do that?

The same as you, their money, their choices.

You mean, "their money, their imposing their choices on everyone else".

That is basically what politics and democracy is all about. A majority
imposing their choices on a minority, for better and for worse.

In a general sense, yes. However, the minority has rights that the
majority cannot infringe by law.

For the moment....

Back in the mid-90s, the Republicans (in Congress, at least) convinced
themselves that the American people hated the Federal Government and
would not mind it it were shut down.

So they shut it down. My reaction: "a day on furlough is a day on
job-search".

The Republicans got a nasty surprise: it turned out that the American
People /liked/ the Federal Government and wanted it to be funded.

The result: a disaster for Republicans at the next election (Newt lost
his job over this, don't even try to downplay it) and the assured
re-election of Bill Clinton.

That's what happened the /last/ time the Republicans in Congress made
up their own minds as to what the American people wanted.

Next time the American People may not wait for the next election to
express their displeasure. Things have deteriorated to the point that
that is a possibility.

And we still don't know why some kid tried to assassinate Trump. And
without knowing /that/ we can't say what form of wing-nuttery he was
expressing, and how many others share it.

[William Hyde]

Post by Paul S Person
And we still don't know why some kid tried to assassinate Trump. And
without knowing /that/ we can't say what form of wing-nuttery he was
expressing, and how many others share it.

If, indeed, there was any reason at all.

The assassin of Elizabeth of Austria killed her because he didn't have
the train fare to get close to anyone else whose death would make the news.

If that rally had been held elsewhere, the would-be assassin might now
be in the news for shooting the local mayor.

Or not, of course.

William Hyde

[Bobbie Sellers]

Post by William Hyde

Post by Paul S Person
And we still don't know why some kid tried to assassinate Trump. And
without knowing /that/ we can't say what form of wing-nuttery he was
expressing, and how many others share it.

If, indeed, there was any reason at all.
The assassin of Elizabeth of Austria killed her because he didn't have
the train fare to get close to anyone else whose death would make the news.
If that rally had been held elsewhere, the would-be assassin might now
be in the news for shooting the local mayor.
Or not, of course.
William Hyde

He just wanted fame for assassination and Biden would have
done if he had been closer to hand. He was looking for information about
both parties and their rallies.

bliss

[Paul S Person]

On Fri, 9 Aug 2024 18:27:26 -0700, Bobbie Sellers

Post by Bobbie Sellers

Post by William Hyde

Post by Paul S Person
And we still don't know why some kid tried to assassinate Trump. And
without knowing /that/ we can't say what form of wing-nuttery he was
expressing, and how many others share it.

If, indeed, there was any reason at all.
The assassin of Elizabeth of Austria killed her because he didn't have
the train fare to get close to anyone else whose death would make the news.
If that rally had been held elsewhere, the would-be assassin might now
be in the news for shooting the local mayor.
Or not, of course.
William Hyde

He just wanted fame for assassination and Biden would have
done if he had been closer to hand. He was looking for information about
both parties and their rallies.

Since we are speculating (AFAIK no actual determination has been
made), try this on for size:

Since he appears to have been investigating boomers, and was quite
young, he had decided that, if the boomers-in-charge weren't going to
retire voluntarily, he would retire them by any means necessary.

And there are a /lot/ of non-boomers out there ...

[The Horny Goat]

On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 18:14:14 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dimensional Traveler
You mean, "their money, their imposing their choices on everyone else".

Sounds like my public library now though many of their 'choices' are
DEI and woke writers.

[Paul S Person]

Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 18:14:14 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dimensional Traveler
You mean, "their money, their imposing their choices on everyone else".

Sounds like my public library now though many of their 'choices' are
DEI and woke writers.

I wasn't aware that either was a genre.

[The Horny Goat]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 08:27:09 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person

Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 18:14:14 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dimensional Traveler
You mean, "their money, their imposing their choices on everyone else".

Sounds like my public library now though many of their 'choices' are
DEI and woke writers.

I wasn't aware that either was a genre.

Bear in mind that I'm in Canada where (at least in my part of the
country) there are few blacks and the main 'oppresed minority' are
natives who in the present day are getting (to steal a line from the
prayer book) "infinitely more than they can ask or imagine" though
they're at most 3-4% of the country.

Nevertheless the local public library continues to bring in the works
of Kendi and his friends like nobody's business. Bottom line is I'm
fully in the 'MLK had it right and the present crew are full of ****"
camp.

[Mike Van Pelt]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books are inappropriate for state funded
pre-college school libraries.

What right does any state have to do that?

Do you want grammar school libraries to stock The Turner
Diaries, or other racist literature? I sure don't.

And there's the factor of "them that pays the money
makes the rules about what they'll spend it on."

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Mike Van Pelt

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books are inappropriate for state funded
pre-college school libraries.

What right does any state have to do that?

Do you want grammar school libraries to stock The Turner
Diaries, or other racist literature? I sure don't.
And there's the factor of "them that pays the money
makes the rules about what they'll spend it on."

Which would be the taxpayers, not the politicians. ;)

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by Mike Van Pelt
Do you want grammar school libraries to stock The Turner
Diaries, or other racist literature? I sure don't.

This is what librarians are for. They provide context to books.
--scott

[The Horny Goat]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Mike Van Pelt
Do you want grammar school libraries to stock The Turner
Diaries, or other racist literature? I sure don't.

This is what librarians are for. They provide context to books.
--scott

Given our librarians' choices of late in our local library I think
I'll trust my own instincts thank you very much.

Though to their credit they did get a couple of interesting books on
COVID. I'm currently reading "What REALLY happened in Wuhan"

[D]

Post by The Horny Goat

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Mike Van Pelt
Do you want grammar school libraries to stock The Turner
Diaries, or other racist literature? I sure don't.

This is what librarians are for. They provide context to books.
--scott

Given our librarians' choices of late in our local library I think
I'll trust my own instincts thank you very much.
Though to their credit they did get a couple of interesting books on
COVID. I'm currently reading "What REALLY happened in Wuhan"

China blocked WHO from investigating for 3 weeks, I do wonder what
_really_ happened there!

[Paul S Person]

Post by D

Post by The Horny Goat

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Mike Van Pelt
Do you want grammar school libraries to stock The Turner
Diaries, or other racist literature? I sure don't.

This is what librarians are for. They provide context to books.
--scott

Given our librarians' choices of late in our local library I think
I'll trust my own instincts thank you very much.
Though to their credit they did get a couple of interesting books on
COVID. I'm currently reading "What REALLY happened in Wuhan"

China blocked WHO from investigating for 3 weeks, I do wonder what
_really_ happened there!

Developing drugs for their swimmers that could easily be fobbed off as
something they ate locally at the Olympics? It's worked fine so far.

[D]

Post by Paul S Person

Post by D

Post by The Horny Goat

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Mike Van Pelt
Do you want grammar school libraries to stock The Turner
Diaries, or other racist literature? I sure don't.

This is what librarians are for. They provide context to books.
--scott

Given our librarians' choices of late in our local library I think
I'll trust my own instincts thank you very much.
Though to their credit they did get a couple of interesting books on
COVID. I'm currently reading "What REALLY happened in Wuhan"

China blocked WHO from investigating for 3 weeks, I do wonder what
_really_ happened there!

Developing drugs for their swimmers that could easily be fobbed off as
something they ate locally at the Olympics? It's worked fine so far.

;)

[The Horny Goat]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 08:29:33 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by D

Post by The Horny Goat
Given our librarians' choices of late in our local library I think
I'll trust my own instincts thank you very much.
Though to their credit they did get a couple of interesting books on
COVID. I'm currently reading "What REALLY happened in Wuhan"

China blocked WHO from investigating for 3 weeks, I do wonder what
_really_ happened there!

I'm now about 2/3 of the way through that book and it seems that the
Chinese were doing 'gain of function research' (which translates into
'how can we make this coronavirus MORE infectious and thus more
dangerous' research) with a fair amount of cooperation from US
researchers despite numerous broken Chinese promises on lab access.

The author is making a fairly strong case for the 'lab leak' theory
rather than deliberate release - thus culpable manslaughter not
murder.

[Paul S Person]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Mike Van Pelt
Do you want grammar school libraries to stock The Turner
Diaries, or other racist literature? I sure don't.

This is what librarians are for. They provide context to books.

I'm not sure what is meant by "provide context". I suggest that making
choices, providing clues to where a particular book might be, and
keeping order is closer to what librarians are for.

A well-curated, well-maintained, and easily navigated library is a
thing of beauty.

But what "context"? Posters? Pamphlets? Lecture series? Nattering at
patrons about the books they are checking out? Sounds pretty intrusive
to me.

And what /conceivable/ "context" could make, say, /Lady Chatterley's
Lover/ acceptable to 4th graders? Apart from putting it in the Adult
Section and keeping the kids confined to the Kiddie Section, of
course.

[D]

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Mike Van Pelt
Do you want grammar school libraries to stock The Turner
Diaries, or other racist literature? I sure don't.

This is what librarians are for. They provide context to books.

I'm not sure what is meant by "provide context". I suggest that making
choices, providing clues to where a particular book might be, and
keeping order is closer to what librarians are for.
A well-curated, well-maintained, and easily navigated library is a
thing of beauty.
But what "context"? Posters? Pamphlets? Lecture series? Nattering at
patrons about the books they are checking out? Sounds pretty intrusive
to me.
And what /conceivable/ "context" could make, say, /Lady Chatterley's
Lover/ acceptable to 4th graders? Apart from putting it in the Adult
Section and keeping the kids confined to the Kiddie Section, of
course.

My ideal would be a brief chat when checking in/out books (if done by a
physical counter). Somethings along the lines of... "did you enjoy the
book? Ah, great, if so, check out these guys some time." Doesn't seem to
intrusive to me.

If they were moer ambitious they could perhaps even arrange some kind of
lecture or invite an author. Depending on the topic or author, that could
also be interesting. But perhaps their resources and time contraints make
such things very difficult. =/

[Paul S Person]

On Thu, 8 Aug 2024 03:48:21 -0000 (UTC), Mike Van Pelt

Post by Mike Van Pelt

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books are inappropriate for state funded
pre-college school libraries.

What right does any state have to do that?

Do you want grammar school libraries to stock The Turner
Diaries, or other racist literature? I sure don't.

Why do I suspect that the Utah Education Dept would have no trouble
with /The Turner Diaries/. Or /The Protocols of the Elders of Zion/,
for that matter?

Could it be because they are ... Republicans?

Post by Mike Van Pelt
And there's the factor of "them that pays the money
makes the rules about what they'll spend it on."

"He who pays the piper calls the tune"

However, in most States, it is the /taxpayers/ that pay, not the
Education Dept.

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by Paul S Person
Why do I suspect that the Utah Education Dept would have no trouble
with /The Turner Diaries/. Or /The Protocols of the Elders of Zion/,
for that matter?
Could it be because they are ... Republicans?

They are Mormon Republicans. A very atypical version in some ways.
--scott

[The Horny Goat]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Paul S Person
Why do I suspect that the Utah Education Dept would have no trouble
with /The Turner Diaries/. Or /The Protocols of the Elders of Zion/,
for that matter?
Could it be because they are ... Republicans?

They are Mormon Republicans. A very atypical version in some ways.
--scott

Hmmm that never stopped me from reading most of Orson Scott Card's
books...

[Paul S Person]

Post by The Horny Goat

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Paul S Person
Why do I suspect that the Utah Education Dept would have no trouble
with /The Turner Diaries/. Or /The Protocols of the Elders of Zion/,
for that matter?
Could it be because they are ... Republicans?

They are Mormon Republicans. A very atypical version in some ways.
--scott

Hmmm that never stopped me from reading most of Orson Scott Card's
books...

Nor me.

Even the /very/ Mormon ones. In fact, I found /Saints/ to be quite
interesting.

[Mike Van Pelt]

Post by Paul S Person
Why do I suspect that the Utah Education Dept would have no trouble
with /The Turner Diaries/. Or /The Protocols of the Elders of Zion/,
for that matter?

With that lying slander, I could equally accuse you of being one
with Stalin and Pol Pot if I were into lying slander.

[Titus G]

Post by Mike Van Pelt

Post by Paul S Person
Why do I suspect that the Utah Education Dept would have no trouble
with /The Turner Diaries/. Or /The Protocols of the Elders of Zion/,
for that matter?

With that lying slander, I could equally accuse you of being one
with Stalin and Pol Pot if I were into lying slander.

What have you got against Country Joe (and the Fish), and Pot? They have
never posted jibberish here.

[Paul S Person]

On Sat, 10 Aug 2024 22:40:09 -0000 (UTC), Mike Van Pelt

Post by Mike Van Pelt

Post by Paul S Person
Why do I suspect that the Utah Education Dept would have no trouble
with /The Turner Diaries/. Or /The Protocols of the Elders of Zion/,
for that matter?

With that lying slander, I could equally accuse you of being one
with Stalin and Pol Pot if I were into lying slander.

You're the one who brought up /The Turner Diaries/. I merely added
another well-known work along the same lines.

Utah is a deep red state. It is not unreasonable to say that anything
it does is done by Republicans.

Whose attempt to replace "ZOG" with "Deep State" is no more convincing
than the effort to rename "Anarchist" to "Anti-Fascist". Changing the
name doesn't change the reality, and it is the reality that is putrid.

[Mike Van Pelt]

Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 10 Aug 2024 22:40:09 -0000 (UTC), Mike Van Pelt

Post by Mike Van Pelt

Post by Paul S Person
Why do I suspect that the Utah Education Dept would have no trouble
with /The Turner Diaries/. Or /The Protocols of the Elders of Zion/,
for that matter?

With that lying slander, I could equally accuse you of being one
with Stalin and Pol Pot if I were into lying slander.

You're the one who brought up /The Turner Diaries/. I merely added
another well-known work along the same lines.

You are the one who asserted that the Utah Education Department
would be fine with "The Turner Diaries" or "The Protocols of
the Elders of Zion."

Regarding that Nazi screed, in fact, as demonstrated pretty
blatantly by recent events, it is the left that is the home
of neo-Nazi hatred of Jews, with the usual student radicals
marching to demand a *Judenrein* Middle East, and attacking
Jewish students, not for any support of Israel or current
Israeli policies, but *merely because they are Jewish*.

Not to mention applauding the biggest massacre of Jews
since the unlamented demise of Adolph Hitler.

[Paul S Person]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 16:03:29 -0000 (UTC), Mike Van Pelt

Post by Mike Van Pelt

Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 10 Aug 2024 22:40:09 -0000 (UTC), Mike Van Pelt

Post by Mike Van Pelt

Post by Paul S Person
Why do I suspect that the Utah Education Dept would have no trouble
with /The Turner Diaries/. Or /The Protocols of the Elders of Zion/,
for that matter?

With that lying slander, I could equally accuse you of being one
with Stalin and Pol Pot if I were into lying slander.

You're the one who brought up /The Turner Diaries/. I merely added
another well-known work along the same lines.

You are the one who asserted that the Utah Education Department
would be fine with "The Turner Diaries" or "The Protocols of
the Elders of Zion."

Have they banned either of them? Didn't think so.

Post by Mike Van Pelt
Regarding that Nazi screed, in fact, as demonstrated pretty
blatantly by recent events, it is the left that is the home
of neo-Nazi hatred of Jews, with the usual student radicals
marching to demand a *Judenrein* Middle East, and attacking
Jewish students, not for any support of Israel or current
Israeli policies, but *merely because they are Jewish*.
Not to mention applauding the biggest massacre of Jews
since the unlamented demise of Adolph Hitler.

Anti-semitism infects both left and right wing-nuts. The ones on the
left do so as part of their support of foreign terror organizations,
which is very unwise as it could lead to various legal entanglements.
The one on the right do as a result of their membership in domestic
terror organizations, which is just as unwise for the same reason. But
then wing-nuts are particularly bright, however well-educated they may
be.

I have long noted that wing-nuts exist on all sides. But only the
Republicans have actually nominated two of them for President/VP.

Note: this is pre-Democratic convention, which means that the
Democrats haven't nominated /anybody/ yet. And, if you think Kamala is
written in stone, well, Joe was written in the same stone up until
quite recently. Seeing the Republican reaction to changing the
probable candidate might tempt the Democrats to change it once again
just to torment Trump, who can say?

[The Horny Goat]

On Thu, 08 Aug 2024 10:49:41 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
Why do I suspect that the Utah Education Dept would have no trouble
with /The Turner Diaries/. Or /The Protocols of the Elders of Zion/,
for that matter?
Could it be because they are ... Republicans?

Not even the most hardcore right winger would want those in a school
library. (I've actually read some of the 'Protcols' but gave it up
after 10 pages of tedium....

[D]

Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 08 Aug 2024 10:49:41 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
Why do I suspect that the Utah Education Dept would have no trouble
with /The Turner Diaries/. Or /The Protocols of the Elders of Zion/,
for that matter?
Could it be because they are ... Republicans?

Not even the most hardcore right winger would want those in a school
library. (I've actually read some of the 'Protcols' but gave it up
after 10 pages of tedium....

This is the truth! I also attempted to read the text after seeing it
mentioned in some conspiracy book and could not finish more than a couple
of pages.

[Paul S Person]

Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 08 Aug 2024 10:49:41 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
Why do I suspect that the Utah Education Dept would have no trouble
with /The Turner Diaries/. Or /The Protocols of the Elders of Zion/,
for that matter?
Could it be because they are ... Republicans?

Not even the most hardcore right winger would want those in a school
library. (I've actually read some of the 'Protcols' but gave it up
after 10 pages of tedium....

Oh, I don't know. There are some pretty weird alt-right types out
there. Some of whom actually make the current Republican candidates
for President/VP ... look sane.

I haven't read either of them. Some things you don't have to sample to
know they are trash.

[D]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books

What right does any state have to do that?

That is either a very trivial question or a very interesting
philosophical/ideological question!

[Paul S Person]

Post by D

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books

What right does any state have to do that?

That is either a very trivial question or a very interesting
philosophical/ideological question!

And I suspect it has long been litigated and resolved.

In the 50s, I was restricted to the Kiddie Section of the local
library. This is the same as banning the books in the other section(s)
from the Kiddie Section. This sort of thing has a long history in the
USA.

But the question is always: what are the criteria? Are they sensible
or are they ideological? Are the books banned banned for objective
reasons or because somebody doesn't like them (and usually hasn't read
them, as they "just no" they are trash)?

[D]

Post by Paul S Person

Post by D

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books

What right does any state have to do that?

That is either a very trivial question or a very interesting
philosophical/ideological question!

And I suspect it has long been litigated and resolved.

True... but thing can chance. Just look at the abortion question. Wasn't
that litigated and resolved, only to be "un-solved"?

Post by Paul S Person
In the 50s, I was restricted to the Kiddie Section of the local
library. This is the same as banning the books in the other section(s)
from the Kiddie Section. This sort of thing has a long history in the
USA.

I don't have children, but if I had, I certainly wouldn't mind if
pornographic magazines were banned from the school library (if we're
talking year 1-9).

I would mind however, if Mein Kampf, Maos red book or Das Kapital were
banned. I think those books are pure garbage, but at least it should be
possible for everyone to form his own conclusion, and Das Kapital is also
interesting from a history of philosophy point of view (which I personally
enjoy).

Post by Paul S Person
But the question is always: what are the criteria? Are they sensible
or are they ideological? Are the books banned banned for objective
reasons or because somebody doesn't like them (and usually hasn't read
them, as they "just no" they are trash)?

Yes! These are the interesting questions! =)

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by D
I don't have children, but if I had, I certainly wouldn't mind if
pornographic magazines were banned from the school library (if we're
talking year 1-9).

Agreed, but the thing is all of those kids have seen hardcore porn already,
at least by the time they are 7 or 8 and have used the internet. They don't
know what it is, they don't find it attractive, but they have seen it and
they know it exists. So it's not worth putting a huge amount of effort into
keeping it out of libraries.

Post by D
I would mind however, if Mein Kampf, Maos red book or Das Kapital were
banned. I think those books are pure garbage, but at least it should be
possible for everyone to form his own conclusion, and Das Kapital is also
interesting from a history of philosophy point of view (which I personally
enjoy).

Agreed, but i'd also want librarians to explain the context behind it.
The same as they should do with any other book.
--scott

[D]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by D
I don't have children, but if I had, I certainly wouldn't mind if
pornographic magazines were banned from the school library (if we're
talking year 1-9).

Agreed, but the thing is all of those kids have seen hardcore porn already,
at least by the time they are 7 or 8 and have used the internet. They don't
know what it is, they don't find it attractive, but they have seen it and
they know it exists. So it's not worth putting a huge amount of effort into
keeping it out of libraries.

Is this true? Granted, I'm a technologist, so perhaps it would be easier
for me not to give any potential future children smart phones and
computers. In fact, if I had children, I would not.

On the other hand, I have read that many parents, instead of raising their
children, just give them a smart phone and off you go without supervision.
If that is true (I have seen a few examples myself) I can imagine that
what you say is true.

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by D
I would mind however, if Mein Kampf, Maos red book or Das Kapital were
banned. I think those books are pure garbage, but at least it should be
possible for everyone to form his own conclusion, and Das Kapital is also
interesting from a history of philosophy point of view (which I personally
enjoy).

Agreed, but i'd also want librarians to explain the context behind it.
The same as they should do with any other book.
--scott

This is sensitive to me. If I'm in the library I would definitely not have
someone review and tell me what to think about what I read. I would like
to reach my own conclusions.

How is this context explaining done in todays libraries in the US? When I
last visited a library to borrow a book, several decades ago, the process
was:

1. Find book.
2. Take book to check out counter.
3. Take book home and read.

No lecturing, in fact, no one even cared. On the other hand... if the
library had a service where I could go and discuss the book, that would
actually be quite nice!

[Don_from_AZ]

Post by D

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by D
I would mind however, if Mein Kampf, Maos red book or Das Kapital were
banned. I think those books are pure garbage, but at least it should be
possible for everyone to form his own conclusion, and Das Kapital is also
interesting from a history of philosophy point of view (which I personally
enjoy).

Agreed, but i'd also want librarians to explain the context behind it.
The same as they should do with any other book.
--scott

This is sensitive to me. If I'm in the library I would definitely not
have someone review and tell me what to think about what I read. I
would like to reach my own conclusions.
How is this context explaining done in todays libraries in the US?
When I last visited a library to borrow a book, several decades ago,
1. Find book.
2. Take book to check out counter.
3. Take book home and read.
No lecturing, in fact, no one even cared. On the other hand... if the
library had a service where I could go and discuss the book, that
would actually be quite nice!

When I was growing up in Woodbury NJ I got my science fiction books at
the local library. I don't recall any specific "children's section" but
I did have to go to the librarian at the desk to check out books, and
they could theoretically have told me the book was too "mature" for me
and prevented me checking it out, or given me some context. None ever
did, as I recall.

In my local library here in Arizona, you pick your book from the
shelves, walk over to a computer terminal, scan your card, scan the
book's bar code, and walk out. No vetting, no discussion.

-Don-

[D]

Post by Don_from_AZ

Post by D

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by D
I would mind however, if Mein Kampf, Maos red book or Das Kapital were
banned. I think those books are pure garbage, but at least it should be
possible for everyone to form his own conclusion, and Das Kapital is also
interesting from a history of philosophy point of view (which I personally
enjoy).

Agreed, but i'd also want librarians to explain the context behind it.
The same as they should do with any other book.
--scott

This is sensitive to me. If I'm in the library I would definitely not
have someone review and tell me what to think about what I read. I
would like to reach my own conclusions.
How is this context explaining done in todays libraries in the US?
When I last visited a library to borrow a book, several decades ago,
1. Find book.
2. Take book to check out counter.
3. Take book home and read.
No lecturing, in fact, no one even cared. On the other hand... if the
library had a service where I could go and discuss the book, that
would actually be quite nice!

When I was growing up in Woodbury NJ I got my science fiction books at
the local library. I don't recall any specific "children's section" but
I did have to go to the librarian at the desk to check out books, and
they could theoretically have told me the book was too "mature" for me
and prevented me checking it out, or given me some context. None ever
did, as I recall.
In my local library here in Arizona, you pick your book from the
shelves, walk over to a computer terminal, scan your card, scan the
book's bar code, and walk out. No vetting, no discussion.
-Don-

True! That shows how long ago it was since I visited a library. I am
certain that the human being has been taken out of the equation now that
you mention it.

On the other hand, there is a small library on the street where I live and
I have seen 1 or 2 older women sitting there all day so there is
opportunity for interaction if you want it. ;)

[The Horny Goat]

On Fri, 09 Aug 2024 09:20:01 -0700, Don_from_AZ

Post by Don_from_AZ
In my local library here in Arizona, you pick your book from the
shelves, walk over to a computer terminal, scan your card, scan the
book's bar code, and walk out. No vetting, no discussion.

We have a similar system - the only time I've 'had a conversation'
with library staff is the time I returned a couple of overdue books,
handed them my card and said 'I've got a couple of deep overdue books
as you'll see by my card. They're in the returned books slot - I will
probably be wanting to take out books today so I'd appreciate it if
you could check these in before I get to checkout so nobody tries to
block me!"

[D]

Post by The Horny Goat
On Fri, 09 Aug 2024 09:20:01 -0700, Don_from_AZ

Post by Don_from_AZ
In my local library here in Arizona, you pick your book from the
shelves, walk over to a computer terminal, scan your card, scan the
book's bar code, and walk out. No vetting, no discussion.

We have a similar system - the only time I've 'had a conversation'
with library staff is the time I returned a couple of overdue books,
handed them my card and said 'I've got a couple of deep overdue books
as you'll see by my card. They're in the returned books slot - I will
probably be wanting to take out books today so I'd appreciate it if
you could check these in before I get to checkout so nobody tries to
block me!"

Don't keep us in suspense... what happened?

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by D

Post by The Horny Goat
On Fri, 09 Aug 2024 09:20:01 -0700, Don_from_AZ

Post by Don_from_AZ
In my local library here in Arizona, you pick your book from the
shelves, walk over to a computer terminal, scan your card, scan the
book's bar code, and walk out. No vetting, no discussion.

We have a similar system - the only time I've 'had a conversation'
with library staff is the time I returned a couple of overdue books,
handed them my card and said 'I've got a couple of deep overdue books
as you'll see by my card. They're in the returned books slot - I will
probably be wanting to take out books today so I'd appreciate it if
you could check these in before I get to checkout so nobody tries to
block me!"

Don't keep us in suspense... what happened?

My aunt sent the Sheriff out after overdue books a few times.

[D]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by D

Post by The Horny Goat
On Fri, 09 Aug 2024 09:20:01 -0700, Don_from_AZ

Post by Don_from_AZ
In my local library here in Arizona, you pick your book from the
shelves, walk over to a computer terminal, scan your card, scan the
book's bar code, and walk out. No vetting, no discussion.

We have a similar system - the only time I've 'had a conversation'
with library staff is the time I returned a couple of overdue books,
handed them my card and said 'I've got a couple of deep overdue books
as you'll see by my card. They're in the returned books slot - I will
probably be wanting to take out books today so I'd appreciate it if
you could check these in before I get to checkout so nobody tries to
block me!"

Don't keep us in suspense... what happened?

My aunt sent the Sheriff out after overdue books a few times.

Wow! I could imagine that things could end pretty badly in case he had to
retrieve overdue books from the local druglords!

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by D

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by D

Post by The Horny Goat
On Fri, 09 Aug 2024 09:20:01 -0700, Don_from_AZ

Post by Don_from_AZ
In my local library here in Arizona, you pick your book from the
shelves, walk over to a computer terminal, scan your card, scan the
book's bar code, and walk out. No vetting, no discussion.

We have a similar system - the only time I've 'had a conversation'
with library staff is the time I returned a couple of overdue books,
handed them my card and said 'I've got a couple of deep overdue books
as you'll see by my card. They're in the returned books slot - I will
probably be wanting to take out books today so I'd appreciate it if
you could check these in before I get to checkout so nobody tries to
block me!"

Don't keep us in suspense... what happened?

My aunt sent the Sheriff out after overdue books a few times.

Wow! I could imagine that things could end pretty badly in case he had to
retrieve overdue books from the local druglords!

Hey, they got Capone for tax evasion!

[D]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by D

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by D

Post by The Horny Goat
On Fri, 09 Aug 2024 09:20:01 -0700, Don_from_AZ

Post by Don_from_AZ
In my local library here in Arizona, you pick your book from the
shelves, walk over to a computer terminal, scan your card, scan the
book's bar code, and walk out. No vetting, no discussion.

We have a similar system - the only time I've 'had a conversation'
with library staff is the time I returned a couple of overdue books,
handed them my card and said 'I've got a couple of deep overdue books
as you'll see by my card. They're in the returned books slot - I will
probably be wanting to take out books today so I'd appreciate it if
you could check these in before I get to checkout so nobody tries to
block me!"

Don't keep us in suspense... what happened?

My aunt sent the Sheriff out after overdue books a few times.

Wow! I could imagine that things could end pretty badly in case he had to
retrieve overdue books from the local druglords!

Hey, they got Capone for tax evasion!

True! ;)

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by D

Post by Scott Dorsey
Agreed, but the thing is all of those kids have seen hardcore porn already,
at least by the time they are 7 or 8 and have used the internet. They don't
know what it is, they don't find it attractive, but they have seen it and
they know it exists. So it's not worth putting a huge amount of effort into
keeping it out of libraries.

Is this true? Granted, I'm a technologist, so perhaps it would be easier
for me not to give any potential future children smart phones and
computers. In fact, if I had children, I would not.
On the other hand, I have read that many parents, instead of raising their
children, just give them a smart phone and off you go without supervision.
If that is true (I have seen a few examples myself) I can imagine that
what you say is true.

If they don't have an unattended smart phone, plenty of their friends do.
Some parents think they can keep their kids away from nasty stuff on the
net, but you can't do that without keeping your kids away from other kids.

Post by D

Post by Scott Dorsey
Agreed, but i'd also want librarians to explain the context behind it.
The same as they should do with any other book.

This is sensitive to me. If I'm in the library I would definitely not have
someone review and tell me what to think about what I read. I would like
to reach my own conclusions.

If you're eight or nine years old, I think that is appropriate. If you are
in college or beyond, it probably isn't.

Post by D
How is this context explaining done in todays libraries in the US? When I
last visited a library to borrow a book, several decades ago, the process

You probably weren't eight years old. When I was six, I think, I was told
that if I liked these books, I should read Podkayne of Mars. It was a good
call, and it made my life better. (The library had the version with the
happy ending though.)

Post by D
No lecturing, in fact, no one even cared. On the other hand... if the
library had a service where I could go and discuss the book, that would
actually be quite nice!

Oh, go to the reference desk.... there will be someone there that wants to
talk about SF and if there isn't they can probably find you someone!
Librariens are the best. It's better in the evenings when they are not busy.
--scott

[D]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by D

Post by Scott Dorsey
Agreed, but i'd also want librarians to explain the context behind it.
The same as they should do with any other book.

This is sensitive to me. If I'm in the library I would definitely not have
someone review and tell me what to think about what I read. I would like
to reach my own conclusions.

If you're eight or nine years old, I think that is appropriate. If you are
in college or beyond, it probably isn't.

Probably the problem is solved naturally, since at that age, you seldom
(I imagine) visit the library yourself but are taken there by your
teacher or parents. I think I was perhaps 12 or 13 when I started to
visit myself and perhaps 16 or 17 when I stopped. At the end I mostly
borrowed programming books.

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by D
No lecturing, in fact, no one even cared. On the other hand... if the
library had a service where I could go and discuss the book, that would
actually be quite nice!

Oh, go to the reference desk.... there will be someone there that wants to
talk about SF and if there isn't they can probably find you someone!
Librariens are the best. It's better in the evenings when they are not busy.
--scott

Hmm, maybe I should go again? On the other hand, I doubt they speak
english. =/

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by D
Probably the problem is solved naturally, since at that age, you seldom
(I imagine) visit the library yourself but are taken there by your
teacher or parents. I think I was perhaps 12 or 13 when I started to
visit myself and perhaps 16 or 17 when I stopped. At the end I mostly
borrowed programming books.

My mother forbade me from reading Ben Bova and Heinlein because they
were not books for nice people. Were it not for friendly librarians and
the ability to walk to the library I might be a very different person today.
--scott

[D]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by D
Probably the problem is solved naturally, since at that age, you seldom
(I imagine) visit the library yourself but are taken there by your
teacher or parents. I think I was perhaps 12 or 13 when I started to
visit myself and perhaps 16 or 17 when I stopped. At the end I mostly
borrowed programming books.

My mother forbade me from reading Ben Bova and Heinlein because they
were not books for nice people. Were it not for friendly librarians and
the ability to walk to the library I might be a very different person today.
--scott

Wow! Very fascinating! I can understand (but not agree) people banning
the bible, quran, Mein Kampf, terrorist texts, pornography in their homes
and not wanting their children to read it, but Heinlein?!

I had no idea he was so sensitive in certain circles.

Did you grow up in a very ideological home with politically active
parents?

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by D

Post by Scott Dorsey
My mother forbade me from reading Ben Bova and Heinlein because they
were not books for nice people. Were it not for friendly librarians and
the ability to walk to the library I might be a very different person today.

Did you grow up in a very ideological home with politically active
parents?

Not at all. They just believed that science fiction was all trash that
respectable people did not read. This was a widespread belief in the
age before Star Wars. I had a Kornbluth collection confiscated by my
English teacher at school too.
--scott

[D]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by D

Post by Scott Dorsey
My mother forbade me from reading Ben Bova and Heinlein because they
were not books for nice people. Were it not for friendly librarians and
the ability to walk to the library I might be a very different person today.

Did you grow up in a very ideological home with politically active
parents?

Not at all. They just believed that science fiction was all trash that
respectable people did not read. This was a widespread belief in the
age before Star Wars. I had a Kornbluth collection confiscated by my
English teacher at school too.
--scott

Wow, had no idea! I think my grand mother had a copy of Arthur C. Clarkes
2001, but that's the only science fiction book I have from that
collection. Possibly Aniara, but I don't think it has ever been translated
into english.

Sorry, I was wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniara#English_translations .

[Paul S Person]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by D
I don't have children, but if I had, I certainly wouldn't mind if
pornographic magazines were banned from the school library (if we're
talking year 1-9).

Agreed, but the thing is all of those kids have seen hardcore porn already,
at least by the time they are 7 or 8 and have used the internet. They don't
know what it is, they don't find it attractive, but they have seen it and
they know it exists. So it's not worth putting a huge amount of effort into
keeping it out of libraries.

Post by D
I would mind however, if Mein Kampf, Maos red book or Das Kapital were
banned. I think those books are pure garbage, but at least it should be
possible for everyone to form his own conclusion, and Das Kapital is also
interesting from a history of philosophy point of view (which I personally
enjoy).

Agreed, but i'd also want librarians to explain the context behind it.
The same as they should do with any other book.

You actually think kids are going to pay attention to some adult
nattering on about a book? What planet are you from again?

[Paul S Person]

Post by D

Post by Paul S Person

Post by D

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books

What right does any state have to do that?

That is either a very trivial question or a very interesting
philosophical/ideological question!

And I suspect it has long been litigated and resolved.

True... but thing can chance. Just look at the abortion question. Wasn't
that litigated and resolved, only to be "un-solved"?

Post by Paul S Person
In the 50s, I was restricted to the Kiddie Section of the local
library. This is the same as banning the books in the other section(s)
from the Kiddie Section. This sort of thing has a long history in the
USA.

I don't have children, but if I had, I certainly wouldn't mind if
pornographic magazines were banned from the school library (if we're
talking year 1-9).
I would mind however, if Mein Kampf, Maos red book or Das Kapital were
banned. I think those books are pure garbage, but at least it should be
possible for everyone to form his own conclusion, and Das Kapital is also
interesting from a history of philosophy point of view (which I personally
enjoy).

Banned from the Kiddie Section? Or banned altogether?

One of the criteria for being /in/ the Kiddie Section involves reading
level. A lot of books are not in the Kiddie Section because of it.
This, of course, depends on the age of the Kiddies for whom the
Section is designed.

Post by D

Post by Paul S Person
But the question is always: what are the criteria? Are they sensible
or are they ideological? Are the books banned banned for objective
reasons or because somebody doesn't like them (and usually hasn't read
them, as they "just no" they are trash)?

Yes! These are the interesting questions! =)

That last "no" should, of course, have been "know". Typos ...

[D]

Post by Paul S Person

Post by D

Post by Paul S Person

Post by D

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books

What right does any state have to do that?

That is either a very trivial question or a very interesting
philosophical/ideological question!

And I suspect it has long been litigated and resolved.

True... but thing can chance. Just look at the abortion question. Wasn't
that litigated and resolved, only to be "un-solved"?

Post by Paul S Person
In the 50s, I was restricted to the Kiddie Section of the local
library. This is the same as banning the books in the other section(s)
from the Kiddie Section. This sort of thing has a long history in the
USA.

I don't have children, but if I had, I certainly wouldn't mind if
pornographic magazines were banned from the school library (if we're
talking year 1-9).
I would mind however, if Mein Kampf, Maos red book or Das Kapital were
banned. I think those books are pure garbage, but at least it should be
possible for everyone to form his own conclusion, and Das Kapital is also
interesting from a history of philosophy point of view (which I personally
enjoy).

Banned from the Kiddie Section? Or banned altogether?

From year 1-9. But Mao, Marx and Hitler, sure, go ahead. If a class 1-9
would voluntarily read any of those, I would take that as a positive sign
and put the child in a class for specially gifted people. ;)

Post by Paul S Person
One of the criteria for being /in/ the Kiddie Section involves reading
level. A lot of books are not in the Kiddie Section because of it.
This, of course, depends on the age of the Kiddies for whom the
Section is designed.

Post by D

Post by Paul S Person
But the question is always: what are the criteria? Are they sensible
or are they ideological? Are the books banned banned for objective
reasons or because somebody doesn't like them (and usually hasn't read
them, as they "just no" they are trash)?

Yes! These are the interesting questions! =)

That last "no" should, of course, have been "know". Typos ...

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books are inappropriate for state funded
pre-college school libraries. That is a choice the State Board of
Education is entitled to make.
Any kids who want a copy can browbeat their parents into buying one,
or find a copy in the adult section of a public library.

What makes you think kids are _allowed_ into the adult section of a
public library in Utah?

[The Horny Goat]

On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 18:13:29 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Any kids who want a copy can browbeat their parents into buying one,
or find a copy in the adult section of a public library.

What makes you think kids are _allowed_ into the adult section of a
public library in Utah?

Har har har ..... starting when I was 8 years old I regularly hung
around the adult section of the public library though it was mostly
for (a) science fiction (mostly Heinlein at that age, I didn't
discover Asimov and Poul Anderson till later) and Asimov science
books.

[D]

Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 18:13:29 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Any kids who want a copy can browbeat their parents into buying one,
or find a copy in the adult section of a public library.

What makes you think kids are _allowed_ into the adult section of a
public library in Utah?

Har har har ..... starting when I was 8 years old I regularly hung
around the adult section of the public library though it was mostly
for (a) science fiction (mostly Heinlein at that age, I didn't
discover Asimov and Poul Anderson till later) and Asimov science
books.

And just imagine where you would be today without that corrupting
influence! ;)

[James Nicoll]

Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 18:13:29 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Any kids who want a copy can browbeat their parents into buying one,
or find a copy in the adult section of a public library.

What makes you think kids are _allowed_ into the adult section of a
public library in Utah?

Har har har ..... starting when I was 8 years old I regularly hung
around the adult section of the public library though it was mostly
for (a) science fiction (mostly Heinlein at that age, I didn't
discover Asimov and Poul Anderson till later) and Asimov science
books.

Waterloo Public Library had a kids section and an adult section,
but some librarians could not be bothered to police kids wandering
upstairs. As well, nobody on staff read SF and their working
assumption seemed to be that if an author wrote some kids books,
they only wrote kids books. So Left Hand of Darkness and I Will
Fear No Evil were in the kids section.

[Paul S Person]

Post by James Nicoll

Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 18:13:29 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Any kids who want a copy can browbeat their parents into buying one,
or find a copy in the adult section of a public library.

What makes you think kids are _allowed_ into the adult section of a
public library in Utah?

Har har har ..... starting when I was 8 years old I regularly hung
around the adult section of the public library though it was mostly
for (a) science fiction (mostly Heinlein at that age, I didn't
discover Asimov and Poul Anderson till later) and Asimov science
books.

Waterloo Public Library had a kids section and an adult section,
but some librarians could not be bothered to police kids wandering
upstairs. As well, nobody on staff read SF and their working
assumption seemed to be that if an author wrote some kids books,
they only wrote kids books. So Left Hand of Darkness and I Will
Fear No Evil were in the kids section.

Thus, presumably, "providing context". Which is what we have been
assured librarians do.

The public library branch I went to was so strict I gave up on them
after I had read /every/ book in the Kiddie's Section.

That's when I discovered used book stores. Which had lots and lots of
science fiction paperbacks.

[Titus G]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.

If it is bullshit, then I apologise. I have now read a little more and
had I known more originally, I could have worded the Subject more
accurately. My original source was the London paper, The Guardian.

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Utah has decided those books are inappropriate for state funded
pre-college school libraries. That is a choice the State Board of
Education is entitled to make.

According to your newspaper of record, the NY Times, it was a new state
of Utah law compelling the Education Board to ban books from schools
state wide if they have been banned by a (small) number of schools.
"The state of Utah has ordered schools to remove 13 books from
classrooms and libraries, including books by Margaret Atwood and Judy
Blume, because they have content considered pornographic or indecent
under a new state law."
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/06/books/utah-public-school-book-ban.html?unlocked_article_code=1.A04._hG5.z_-nL37gpewm&smid=url-share

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Any kids who want a copy can browbeat their parents into buying one,
or find a copy in the adult section of a public library.

[D]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Once again: BS.
Utah has decided those books are inappropriate for state funded
pre-college school libraries. That is a choice the State Board of
Education is entitled to make.
Any kids who want a copy can browbeat their parents into buying one,
or find a copy in the adult section of a public library.

Ahh.... this part of the story I was not aware of. Makes it sound a lot
less draconian than the story I heard (they are going to burn the books).
Thank you for providing this additional perspective.

[Paul S Person]

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.

That the education department has banned them in school libraries may
well be true -- but that Utah has banned them (ie, that they cannot
legally be possessed or purchased or sold anywhere in the State) is
unlikely to be true.

Exaggerating stuff can negatively impact your credibility.

Post by Titus G
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/e/2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

[Daniel Goldsmith]

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.

Thanks for posting that message.

The responses are why I, and others, no longer participate here.

If I want to read far-right bigotry, I'll open a Heinlein.

[D]

Post by Daniel Goldsmith

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.

Thanks for posting that message.
The responses are why I, and others, no longer participate here.
If I want to read far-right bigotry, I'll open a Heinlein.

Why? I'm somewhat of a rightist troll, and I draw fire from the left quite
often, but I am in no way forced to read their replies, and I can focus on
the interesting stuff if I feel like it. I find that the beauty of usenet.
Sure, many people don't like my opinions, and I don't like the opinions of
many other people, but at the end of the day... so what?

From time to time some of those people write interesting posts on other
subjects which I do enjoy.

[Paul S Person]

On Fri, 9 Aug 2024 18:27:49 -0000 (UTC), Daniel Goldsmith

Post by Daniel Goldsmith

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.

Thanks for posting that message.
The responses are why I, and others, no longer participate here.
If I want to read far-right bigotry, I'll open a Heinlein.

Too bad it is misleading.

They banned 13 books /from the school libraries/, not from Utah. I
consider the decision idiotic pandering to semi-fascist ultra-Maga
weirdos, BTW. Decisions based on content rather than, say, reading
level, are inherently dubious.

Most of the discussion here has been about the right to do so. Which
in Seattle, bluest of the blue, has existed since at least the 1950s.

[Cryptoengineer]

Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 9 Aug 2024 18:27:49 -0000 (UTC), Daniel Goldsmith

Post by Daniel Goldsmith

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.

Thanks for posting that message.
The responses are why I, and others, no longer participate here.
If I want to read far-right bigotry, I'll open a Heinlein.

Too bad it is misleading.
They banned 13 books /from the school libraries/, not from Utah. I
consider the decision idiotic pandering to semi-fascist ultra-Maga
weirdos, BTW. Decisions based on content rather than, say, reading
level, are inherently dubious.
Most of the discussion here has been about the right to do so. Which
in Seattle, bluest of the blue, has existed since at least the 1950s.

There are about 3 million publications in the US each year. Libraries
have neither unlimited budgets, nor unlimited shelf space.

There *has* to be a selection process for what gets included.

The current list of books banned from Utah school libraries may be
a ludicrous example of adult fears, but to say no books can be excluded
for any reason is a non-starter. *Most* have to be excluded, else every
school library would be as large as the Library of Congress.

pt

[Titus G]

On 11/08/24 06:05, Cryptoengineer wrote:
snip

Post by Cryptoengineer
There are about 3 million publications in the US each year. Libraries
have neither unlimited budgets, nor unlimited shelf space.
There *has* to be a selection process for what gets included.
The current list of books banned from Utah school libraries may be
a ludicrous example of adult fears, but to say no books can be excluded
for any reason is a non-starter. *Most* have to be excluded, else every
school library would be as large as the Library of Congress.

From the Southern Hemisphere, it appears you have things upside down or
back to front.
The normal selection process is to chose books, not to exclude books. In
school libraries this selection process has been the province of
librarians without central government interference except of course in
evil countries such as the Russia or Communist China.
When I want a book to read, I don't start with the Library of Congress
index and keep excluding titles until there is one book left.
Oryx and Crake was published in 2003. With 3,000,000 US annual
publications for 21 years, it has been selected for exclusion from over
60,000,000 publications including the two books following in the
MaddAddam trilogy (4 stars).
A ludicrous example of bureaucracy.

[Charles Packer]

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/e/

2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-
HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1

Is nobody simply curious as to why different books have different
sets of school boards banning them? And how many school districts
are there in Utah, anyway? How can we be sure that this isn't a publicity
stunt for Sarah J Maas?

[Paul S Person]

On Sat, 10 Aug 2024 07:55:11 -0000 (UTC), Charles Packer

Post by Titus G

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/e/

2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-
HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1
Is nobody simply curious as to why different books have different
sets of school boards banning them? And how many school districts
are there in Utah, anyway? How can we be sure that this isn't a publicity
stunt for Sarah J Maas?

Different school boards have different values. That's the problem with
"local values" -- they are /local/. Go over the ridge to the next
school district and the values may differ. Hence the endless attempts
to elevate /my/ local values to apply /universally/. Well, not mine
personally, of course; I am indicating the state of mind of the
individual(s) doing the banning.

I saw an article recently that claimed that most book banning efforts
were being done, country-wide, by at most 11 distinct people. I wonder
how many distinct people were responsible for the thousands of
voicemails/emails to election workers who had the gall to insist that
the vote count determined the winner -- one? two? three?.

[Charles Packer]

Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 10 Aug 2024 07:55:11 -0000 (UTC), Charles Packer

Post by Titus G

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/e/

2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-
HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1
Is nobody simply curious as to why different books have different sets
of school boards banning them? And how many school districts are there
in Utah, anyway? How can we be sure that this isn't a publicity stunt
for Sarah J Maas?

Different school boards have different values. That's the problem with
"local values" -- they are /local/. Go over the ridge to the next school
district and the values may differ. Hence the endless attempts to
elevate /my/ local values to apply /universally/. Well, not mine
personally, of course; I am indicating the state of mind of the
individual(s) doing the banning.
I saw an article recently that claimed that most book banning efforts
were being done, country-wide, by at most 11 distinct people. I wonder
how many distinct people were responsible for the thousands of
voicemails/emails to election workers who had the gall to insist that
the vote count determined the winner -- one? two? three?.

Subsequently the New York Times ran a story that resolved my
puzzlement over the structure of the list. If at least three
school districts decide to ban a book, all school districts
in the state are required to remove it from their libraries.
I looked up the locations of each of the five districts
appearing in the list and they're all in small towns.
Fun fact: Utah spends the least of any state on its public
schools, on a per pupil basis.

[D]

Post by Charles Packer

Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 10 Aug 2024 07:55:11 -0000 (UTC), Charles Packer

Post by Titus G

Post by Titus G
Utah has banned 13 books, including Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
which basically claims that large corporations are not to be trusted
with science.
I do not know any of the other authors but Sarah J. Maas writes Fantasy.
James Nichol will be delighted that women are being recognised with
twelve of the thirteen books being written by women.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/e/

2PACX-1vQc_7uakPh4eRXrq0iVq-L2g-BwcnRWyfc7E0QOdrThoUEtPHQaDvJM4JwNFXV-
HZQok4L-fDh_P9jt/pubhtml?pli=1
Is nobody simply curious as to why different books have different sets
of school boards banning them? And how many school districts are there
in Utah, anyway? How can we be sure that this isn't a publicity stunt
for Sarah J Maas?

Different school boards have different values. That's the problem with
"local values" -- they are /local/. Go over the ridge to the next school
district and the values may differ. Hence the endless attempts to
elevate /my/ local values to apply /universally/. Well, not mine
personally, of course; I am indicating the state of mind of the
individual(s) doing the banning.
I saw an article recently that claimed that most book banning efforts
were being done, country-wide, by at most 11 distinct people. I wonder
how many distinct people were responsible for the thousands of
voicemails/emails to election workers who had the gall to insist that
the vote count determined the winner -- one? two? three?.

Subsequently the New York Times ran a story that resolved my
puzzlement over the structure of the list. If at least three
school districts decide to ban a book, all school districts
in the state are required to remove it from their libraries.
I looked up the locations of each of the five districts
appearing in the list and they're all in small towns.
Fun fact: Utah spends the least of any state on its public
schools, on a per pupil basis.

What are their results per pupil? Money does not equal results as is often
so painfully felt in sweden.

[Charles Packer]

Post by D

Subsequently the New York Times ran a story that resolved my puzzlement
over the structure of the list. If at least three school districts
decide to ban a book, all school districts in the state are required to
remove it from their libraries.
I looked up the locations of each of the five districts appearing in
the list and they're all in small towns.
Fun fact: Utah spends the least of any state on its public schools, on
a per pupil basis.

What are their results per pupil? Money does not equal results as is
often so painfully felt in sweden.

According to this website,
"New York has the highest per-pupil spending of all of the 50
states. New York currently spends $24,040 per pupil,
approximately 90% above the national average. Utah has the
lowest per-pupil spending of $7,628 per student. "

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/per-pupil-spending-by-
state

[Chris Buckley]

Post by Charles Packer

Post by D

Subsequently the New York Times ran a story that resolved my puzzlement
over the structure of the list. If at least three school districts
decide to ban a book, all school districts in the state are required to
remove it from their libraries.
I looked up the locations of each of the five districts appearing in
the list and they're all in small towns.
Fun fact: Utah spends the least of any state on its public schools, on
a per pupil basis.

What are their results per pupil? Money does not equal results as is
often so painfully felt in sweden.

According to this website,
"New York has the highest per-pupil spending of all of the 50
states. New York currently spends $24,040 per pupil,
approximately 90% above the national average. Utah has the
lowest per-pupil spending of $7,628 per student. "
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/per-pupil-spending-by-
state

And???? What exactly are you trying to imply?

Other "fun facts": On the 2022 NAEP (National Assessment of
Educational Progress), which looks at 4th and 8th graders, Utah was the
7th best and 3rd best state in reading, respectively. In math, it was
5th and tied for 1st (with Massachusetts, with spending more than twice Utah)!

Education is highly valued in Utah, with its large Mormon
population. Reading and books get a lot of attention. Note that Utah
is almost all public school education, it ranks 49th in private school
percentage (3% versus 9% nationally), so it's not because of the
Mormon equivalent of parochial schools.

Your arguments, with these additional fun facts, seem to imply that we
should be trying to emulate Utah. They get a lot of bang for their
buck! (I personally don't believe we should emulate Utah's rather
silly state ban law. Ability to ban books in grade school libraries is
necessary, but it should only be done at the local level, not any
higher level, IMO.)

Chris

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Chris Buckley

Post by Charles Packer

Post by D

Subsequently the New York Times ran a story that resolved my puzzlement
over the structure of the list. If at least three school districts
decide to ban a book, all school districts in the state are required to
remove it from their libraries.
I looked up the locations of each of the five districts appearing in
the list and they're all in small towns.
Fun fact: Utah spends the least of any state on its public schools, on
a per pupil basis.

What are their results per pupil? Money does not equal results as is
often so painfully felt in sweden.

According to this website,
"New York has the highest per-pupil spending of all of the 50
states. New York currently spends $24,040 per pupil,
approximately 90% above the national average. Utah has the
lowest per-pupil spending of $7,628 per student. "
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/per-pupil-spending-by-
state

And???? What exactly are you trying to imply?
Other "fun facts": On the 2022 NAEP (National Assessment of
Educational Progress), which looks at 4th and 8th graders, Utah was the
7th best and 3rd best state in reading, respectively. In math, it was
5th and tied for 1st (with Massachusetts, with spending more than twice Utah)!

Other "fun fact"; The cost of living in NY state is 2x the cost of
living in Utah which narrows the spending gap somewhat.

[D]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Chris Buckley

Post by Charles Packer

Post by D

Subsequently the New York Times ran a story that resolved my puzzlement
over the structure of the list. If at least three school districts
decide to ban a book, all school districts in the state are required to
remove it from their libraries.
I looked up the locations of each of the five districts appearing in
the list and they're all in small towns.
Fun fact: Utah spends the least of any state on its public schools, on
a per pupil basis.

What are their results per pupil? Money does not equal results as is
often so painfully felt in sweden.

According to this website,
"New York has the highest per-pupil spending of all of the 50
states. New York currently spends $24,040 per pupil,
approximately 90% above the national average. Utah has the
lowest per-pupil spending of $7,628 per student. "
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/per-pupil-spending-by-
state

And???? What exactly are you trying to imply?
Other "fun facts": On the 2022 NAEP (National Assessment of
Educational Progress), which looks at 4th and 8th graders, Utah was the
7th best and 3rd best state in reading, respectively. In math, it was
5th and tied for 1st (with Massachusetts, with spending more than twice Utah)!

Other "fun fact"; The cost of living in NY state is 2x the cost of
living in Utah which narrows the spending gap somewhat.

But surely the students are not living in NY schools? Of course rents,
taxes, salaries and food are higher than in Utah, but how much?

Would be interested to adjust the statistics for that, the re-rank, and
see where the most bang for the buck is.

[Chris Buckley]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Chris Buckley

Post by Charles Packer

Post by D

Subsequently the New York Times ran a story that resolved my puzzlement
over the structure of the list. If at least three school districts
decide to ban a book, all school districts in the state are required to
remove it from their libraries.
I looked up the locations of each of the five districts appearing in
the list and they're all in small towns.
Fun fact: Utah spends the least of any state on its public schools, on
a per pupil basis.

What are their results per pupil? Money does not equal results as is
often so painfully felt in sweden.

According to this website,
"New York has the highest per-pupil spending of all of the 50
states. New York currently spends $24,040 per pupil,
approximately 90% above the national average. Utah has the
lowest per-pupil spending of $7,628 per student. "
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/per-pupil-spending-by-
state

And???? What exactly are you trying to imply?
Other "fun facts": On the 2022 NAEP (National Assessment of
Educational Progress), which looks at 4th and 8th graders, Utah was the
7th best and 3rd best state in reading, respectively. In math, it was
5th and tied for 1st (with Massachusetts, with spending more than twice Utah)!

Other "fun fact"; The cost of living in NY state is 2x the cost of
living in Utah which narrows the spending gap somewhat.

Once again you are making claims without the evidence to back them up.
Please give the citations to support your overblown claim.

Yes, COL in New York *City* is easily twice that of any city in Utah.
But that's not the whole state; I lived most of my life in upstate
New York (Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Watertown, Ithaca) and the
COL there is quite reasonable.

MY evidence for COL in New York *State* vs Utah:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/cost-of-living-index-by-state
has New York at about 125% of Utah (125.1 vs 101.5 in normalized to 100
figures.)

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/mortgages/cost-of-living-by-state/
has New York at 122% of Utah.

https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/cost-of-living/utah-usa/new-york-usa
has New York at 133% of Utah.

Meanwhile, the latest public education spending statistics
https://educationdata.org/public-education-spending-statistics
has New York State at 355% of Utah (33.4K vs 9.4K). Bang for the buck!

I await your citations.

Chris

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Chris Buckley

Post by Scott Lurndal
Other "fun fact"; The cost of living in NY state is 2x the cost of
living in Utah which narrows the spending gap somewhat.

Once again you are making claims without the evidence to back them up.
Please give the citations to support your overblown claim.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&city1=Salt+Lake+City%2C+UT&country2=United+States&city2=New+York%2C+NY

yes, it's NYC. And yes, a large percentage of the student population
is in NYC and burroughs.

Post by Chris Buckley
Yes, COL in New York *City* is easily twice that of any city in Utah.
But that's not the whole state; I lived most of my life in upstate
New York (Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Watertown, Ithaca) and the
COL there is quite reasonable.

And half the population live in the NYC region.

"According to population estimates from the 2020 US Census,
New York State is the fourth most populous state in the country,
housing more than 20 million people (20,201,249). Within the state,
approximately 45% of the population, or almost 9 million people
(8,804,190), reside in New York City."

Add Long Island and Westchester county and that's significant majority of
the states population.

[Chris Buckley]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Chris Buckley

Post by Scott Lurndal
Other "fun fact"; The cost of living in NY state is 2x the cost of
living in Utah which narrows the spending gap somewhat.

Once again you are making claims without the evidence to back them up.
Please give the citations to support your overblown claim.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&city1=Salt+Lake+City%2C+UT&country2=United+States&city2=New+York%2C+NY
yes, it's NYC. And yes, a large percentage of the student population
is in NYC and burroughs.

Post by Chris Buckley
Yes, COL in New York *City* is easily twice that of any city in Utah.
But that's not the whole state; I lived most of my life in upstate
New York (Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Watertown, Ithaca) and the
COL there is quite reasonable.

And half the population live in the NYC region.
"According to population estimates from the 2020 US Census,
New York State is the fourth most populous state in the country,
housing more than 20 million people (20,201,249). Within the state,
approximately 45% of the population, or almost 9 million people
(8,804,190), reside in New York City."
Add Long Island and Westchester county and that's significant majority of
the states population.

I don't see the purpose of this post of yours. It doesn't support your
claim. It doesn't change the fact that the COL in New York *State* (which
includes the huge COL in New York City) is about 130% that of Utah, and
the student cost per pupil of New York *State* is 355% that of Utah.
You seem to be the only one who thinks 130% is almost 355%. I view them
as quite different.

Chris

[D]

Post by Chris Buckley

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Chris Buckley

Post by Scott Lurndal
Other "fun fact"; The cost of living in NY state is 2x the cost of
living in Utah which narrows the spending gap somewhat.

Once again you are making claims without the evidence to back them up.
Please give the citations to support your overblown claim.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&city1=Salt+Lake+City%2C+UT&country2=United+States&city2=New+York%2C+NY
yes, it's NYC. And yes, a large percentage of the student population
is in NYC and burroughs.

Post by Chris Buckley
Yes, COL in New York *City* is easily twice that of any city in Utah.
But that's not the whole state; I lived most of my life in upstate
New York (Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Watertown, Ithaca) and the
COL there is quite reasonable.

And half the population live in the NYC region.
"According to population estimates from the 2020 US Census,
New York State is the fourth most populous state in the country,
housing more than 20 million people (20,201,249). Within the state,
approximately 45% of the population, or almost 9 million people
(8,804,190), reside in New York City."
Add Long Island and Westchester county and that's significant majority of
the states population.

I don't see the purpose of this post of yours. It doesn't support your
claim. It doesn't change the fact that the COL in New York *State* (which
includes the huge COL in New York City) is about 130% that of Utah, and
the student cost per pupil of New York *State* is 355% that of Utah.
You seem to be the only one who thinks 130% is almost 355%. I view them
as quite different.
Chris

I think that now that we've established that money does not equal quality,
even adjusted for cost of living, the next question is... why does Utah
perform so well?

Is it the culture, the religion, the political leadership?

[Scott Dorsey]

Chris Buckley <***@sabir.com> wrote:
Education is highly valued in Utah, with its large Mormon

Post by Chris Buckley
population. Reading and books get a lot of attention. Note that Utah
is almost all public school education, it ranks 49th in private school
percentage (3% versus 9% nationally), so it's not because of the
Mormon equivalent of parochial schools.

This is true, but it should be pointed out that curriculum in Utah is a
little bit different than what you might expect in the rest of the country.

Post by Chris Buckley
Your arguments, with these additional fun facts, seem to imply that we
should be trying to emulate Utah. They get a lot of bang for their
buck!

This is true and it basically shows that the value of education has more
to do with what students put into it than what the institution puts into
it. This is as true in grade school as in college.

Post by Chris Buckley
(I personally don't believe we should emulate Utah's rather
silly state ban law. Ability to ban books in grade school libraries is
necessary, but it should only be done at the local level, not any
higher level, IMO.)

It should be done by librarians. Not by the school board, not by the PTA,
not by the city council. Selection of books should be done by librarians
because that is their job.
--scott

[Chris Buckley]

Post by Chris Buckley
Education is highly valued in Utah, with its large Mormon

Post by Chris Buckley
population. Reading and books get a lot of attention. Note that Utah
is almost all public school education, it ranks 49th in private school
percentage (3% versus 9% nationally), so it's not because of the
Mormon equivalent of parochial schools.

This is true, but it should be pointed out that curriculum in Utah is a
little bit different than what you might expect in the rest of the country.

Post by Chris Buckley
Your arguments, with these additional fun facts, seem to imply that we
should be trying to emulate Utah. They get a lot of bang for their
buck!

This is true and it basically shows that the value of education has more
to do with what students put into it than what the institution puts into
it. This is as true in grade school as in college.

Post by Chris Buckley
(I personally don't believe we should emulate Utah's rather
silly state ban law. Ability to ban books in grade school libraries is
necessary, but it should only be done at the local level, not any
higher level, IMO.)

It should be done by librarians. Not by the school board, not by the PTA,
not by the city council. Selection of books should be done by librarians
because that is their job.
--scott

This is directly contradicted by the whole theory of education of
children in this country. The public school system is built around
local control of the schools, not governmental control. The states set
broad policy, but it is the directly elected, non-governmental, local
school boards that set the local policy, implement policy, and hire all
the educators, including librarians.

What do you think the responsibilities of the school board are? I
admit for some large school districts it's hard to distinguish them
from government (my local school district has a budget of 3.3 Billion
dollars), but they are the ones designated to be in control of what
gets done in the schools.

School librarians are down in the hierarchy under the local school
boards, which is where they should be. They do not set policy.

Chris

[D]

Post by Chris Buckley

Post by Charles Packer

Post by D

Subsequently the New York Times ran a story that resolved my puzzlement
over the structure of the list. If at least three school districts
decide to ban a book, all school districts in the state are required to
remove it from their libraries.
I looked up the locations of each of the five districts appearing in
the list and they're all in small towns.
Fun fact: Utah spends the least of any state on its public schools, on
a per pupil basis.

What are their results per pupil? Money does not equal results as is
often so painfully felt in sweden.

According to this website,
"New York has the highest per-pupil spending of all of the 50
states. New York currently spends $24,040 per pupil,
approximately 90% above the national average. Utah has the
lowest per-pupil spending of $7,628 per student. "
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/per-pupil-spending-by-
state

And???? What exactly are you trying to imply?
Other "fun facts": On the 2022 NAEP (National Assessment of
Educational Progress), which looks at 4th and 8th graders, Utah was the
7th best and 3rd best state in reading, respectively. In math, it was
5th and tied for 1st (with Massachusetts, with spending more than twice Utah)!
Education is highly valued in Utah, with its large Mormon
population. Reading and books get a lot of attention. Note that Utah
is almost all public school education, it ranks 49th in private school
percentage (3% versus 9% nationally), so it's not because of the
Mormon equivalent of parochial schools.
Your arguments, with these additional fun facts, seem to imply that we
should be trying to emulate Utah. They get a lot of bang for their
buck! (I personally don't believe we should emulate Utah's rather
silly state ban law. Ability to ban books in grade school libraries is
necessary, but it should only be done at the local level, not any
higher level, IMO.)
Chris

That's what I wanted to know. It does seem like Utahs model should be
copied by other states, since they could perhaps achieve more with less,
and put that money to better use or return it to the tax payers.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by D

Post by Chris Buckley
Your arguments, with these additional fun facts, seem to imply that we
should be trying to emulate Utah. They get a lot of bang for their
buck! (I personally don't believe we should emulate Utah's rather
silly state ban law. Ability to ban books in grade school libraries is
necessary, but it should only be done at the local level, not any
higher level, IMO.)
Chris

That's what I wanted to know. It does seem like Utahs model should be
copied by other states, since they could perhaps achieve more with less,

Actually, the primary reason that Utah spends less is that
the cost of living is half that of NY state. If you just
look at Manhattan and Long Island, the cost of living in
Utah is about 25%. Which, after adjusting for that, puts
NY and Utah almost at parity for per-student spending.

Post by D
and put that money to better use or return it to the tax payers.

Another factor to consider is the results of that spending;
college entrance exam scores, et alia. There are no doubt
several other factors that should be taken into account.

[Chris Buckley]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by D

Post by Chris Buckley
Your arguments, with these additional fun facts, seem to imply that we
should be trying to emulate Utah. They get a lot of bang for their
buck! (I personally don't believe we should emulate Utah's rather
silly state ban law. Ability to ban books in grade school libraries is
necessary, but it should only be done at the local level, not any
higher level, IMO.)
Chris

That's what I wanted to know. It does seem like Utahs model should be
copied by other states, since they could perhaps achieve more with less,

Actually, the primary reason that Utah spends less is that
the cost of living is half that of NY state. If you just
look at Manhattan and Long Island, the cost of living in
Utah is about 25%. Which, after adjusting for that, puts
NY and Utah almost at parity for per-student spending.

Once again, complete nonsense. See my other response for the citations.
New York State spends 355% of Utah's per student spending and the cost of
living is ~130% of Utah's. Why do you consider that "almost at parity"?

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by D
and put that money to better use or return it to the tax payers.

Another factor to consider is the results of that spending;
college entrance exam scores, et alia. There are no doubt
several other factors that should be taken into account.

Once again you deleted my argument! Please explain why you feel
Utah being the top state in the country in 8th grade math and the
3rd state in the country in 8th grade reading according to the NAEP
is not good and sufficient evidence that Utah does very well in
public school education.

Chris

[D]

Post by Chris Buckley

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by D

Post by Chris Buckley
Your arguments, with these additional fun facts, seem to imply that we
should be trying to emulate Utah. They get a lot of bang for their
buck! (I personally don't believe we should emulate Utah's rather
silly state ban law. Ability to ban books in grade school libraries is
necessary, but it should only be done at the local level, not any
higher level, IMO.)
Chris

That's what I wanted to know. It does seem like Utahs model should be
copied by other states, since they could perhaps achieve more with less,

Actually, the primary reason that Utah spends less is that
the cost of living is half that of NY state. If you just
look at Manhattan and Long Island, the cost of living in
Utah is about 25%. Which, after adjusting for that, puts
NY and Utah almost at parity for per-student spending.

Once again, complete nonsense. See my other response for the citations.
New York State spends 355% of Utah's per student spending and the cost of
living is ~130% of Utah's. Why do you consider that "almost at parity"?

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by D
and put that money to better use or return it to the tax payers.

Another factor to consider is the results of that spending;
college entrance exam scores, et alia. There are no doubt
several other factors that should be taken into account.

Once again you deleted my argument! Please explain why you feel
Utah being the top state in the country in 8th grade math and the
3rd state in the country in 8th grade reading according to the NAEP
is not good and sufficient evidence that Utah does very well in
public school education.
Chris

I have to say, that as an outsider, Chris argumentation is starting to
look like the most convincing one.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Chris Buckley
Once again you deleted my argument! Please explain why you feel
Utah being the top state in the country in 8th grade math and the
3rd state in the country in 8th grade reading according to the NAEP
is not good and sufficient evidence that Utah does very well in
public school education.

I actually never said anything about the quality of the education
in either state. All I did was point out the difference in cost
of living, and thus educational costs, between the two states.

[Paul S Person]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Chris Buckley
Once again you deleted my argument! Please explain why you feel
Utah being the top state in the country in 8th grade math and the
3rd state in the country in 8th grade reading according to the NAEP
is not good and sufficient evidence that Utah does very well in
public school education.

I actually never said anything about the quality of the education
in either state. All I did was point out the difference in cost
of living, and thus educational costs, between the two states.

Which has turned out to be less persuasive than might have been
expected.

Cost-per-pupil may not be the best criterion for quality of education.