OT NASA CHAPEA Mars Simulation.

[Titus G]

Four volunteers have spent 378 days living in a 1,700-square-foot space
3D-printed by NASA to simulate conditions on Mars. Fascinating.
"The volunteers grew their own vegetables, maintained equipment,
participated in so-called Marswalks and faced stressors that actual
space travelers to Mars could experience, including 22-minute
communication delays with Earth."
https://www.npr.org/2024/07/07/nx-s1-5032120/nasa-mars-simulation-volunteers-year

Four people in 1700 square feet for over a year? (If it was a SF story,
at least two of them would have gone mad or been killed.)
What about water? Gravity?

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Titus G
Four volunteers have spent 378 days living in a 1,700-square-foot space
3D-printed by NASA to simulate conditions on Mars. Fascinating.
"The volunteers grew their own vegetables, maintained equipment,
participated in so-called Marswalks and faced stressors that actual
space travelers to Mars could experience, including 22-minute
communication delays with Earth."
https://www.npr.org/2024/07/07/nx-s1-5032120/nasa-mars-simulation-volunteers-year
Four people in 1700 square feet for over a year? (If it was a SF story,
at least two of them would have gone mad or been killed.)
What about water? Gravity?

There have been previous exercises.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HI-SEAS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARS-500

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Running

:-)

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G
Four volunteers have spent 378 days living in a 1,700-square-foot space
3D-printed by NASA to simulate conditions on Mars. Fascinating.
"The volunteers grew their own vegetables, maintained equipment,
participated in so-called Marswalks and faced stressors that actual
space travelers to Mars could experience, including 22-minute
communication delays with Earth."
https://www.npr.org/2024/07/07/nx-s1-5032120/nasa-mars-simulation-volunteers-year
Four people in 1700 square feet for over a year? (If it was a SF story,
at least two of them would have gone mad or been killed.)
What about water? Gravity?

There have been previous exercises.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HI-SEAS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARS-500
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Running
:-)

One of those is not like the others....

[Titus G]

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G
Four volunteers have spent 378 days living in a 1,700-square-foot space
3D-printed by NASA to simulate conditions on Mars. Fascinating.
"The volunteers grew their own vegetables, maintained equipment,
participated in so-called Marswalks and faced stressors that actual
space travelers to Mars could experience, including 22-minute
communication delays with Earth."
https://www.npr.org/2024/07/07/nx-s1-5032120/nasa-mars-simulation-volunteers-year
Four people in 1700 square feet for over a year? (If it was a SF story,
at least two of them would have gone mad or been killed.)
What about water? Gravity?

There have been previous exercises.

Thank you.

Post by Robert Carnegie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2

Over 3 acres.

Post by Robert Carnegie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HI-SEAS

Wow. 6 people in a smaller area.

Post by Robert Carnegie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARS-500

Similar. 6 people but a period of 520 days.

Post by Robert Carnegie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Running
:-)

Not a simulation. 1 person with a 4 person spaceship to himself for a
fairly short time.

[Tony Nance]

Post by Titus G

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G
Four volunteers have spent 378 days living in a 1,700-square-foot space
3D-printed by NASA to simulate conditions on Mars. Fascinating.
"The volunteers grew their own vegetables, maintained equipment,
participated in so-called Marswalks and faced stressors that actual
space travelers to Mars could experience, including 22-minute
communication delays with Earth."
https://www.npr.org/2024/07/07/nx-s1-5032120/nasa-mars-simulation-volunteers-year
Four people in 1700 square feet for over a year? (If it was a SF story,
at least two of them would have gone mad or been killed.)
What about water? Gravity?

There have been previous exercises.

Thank you.

Post by Robert Carnegie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2

Over 3 acres.

Post by Robert Carnegie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HI-SEAS

Wow. 6 people in a smaller area.

Post by Robert Carnegie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARS-500

Similar. 6 people but a period of 520 days.

Post by Robert Carnegie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Running
:-)

Not a simulation. 1 person with a 4 person spaceship to himself for a
fairly short time.

"All models are wrong, but some are useful." - George Box

Generally: it is often impossible and/or unreasonable to do an identical
simulation, model, practice run, etc. That does not mean these things
will not yield insightful results or info. (It does not mean they will,
either.)

I haven't looked into any details about the above-mentioned stuff, so I
have no idea what valuable info can be gleaned (if any); but I'd want to
know more before rejecting them out of hand.

Tony

[Paul S Person]

Post by Tony Nance

Post by Titus G

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G
Four volunteers have spent 378 days living in a 1,700-square-foot space
3D-printed by NASA to simulate conditions on Mars. Fascinating.
"The volunteers grew their own vegetables, maintained equipment,
participated in so-called Marswalks and faced stressors that actual
space travelers to Mars could experience, including 22-minute
communication delays with Earth."
https://www.npr.org/2024/07/07/nx-s1-5032120/nasa-mars-simulation-volunteers-year
Four people in 1700 square feet for over a year? (If it was a SF story,
at least two of them would have gone mad or been killed.)
What about water? Gravity?

There have been previous exercises.

Thank you.

Post by Robert Carnegie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2

Over 3 acres.

Post by Robert Carnegie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HI-SEAS

Wow. 6 people in a smaller area.

Post by Robert Carnegie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARS-500

Similar. 6 people but a period of 520 days.

Post by Robert Carnegie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Running
:-)

Not a simulation. 1 person with a 4 person spaceship to himself for a
fairly short time.

"All models are wrong, but some are useful." - George Box
Generally: it is often impossible and/or unreasonable to do an identical
simulation, model, practice run, etc. That does not mean these things
will not yield insightful results or info. (It does not mean they will,
either.)
I haven't looked into any details about the above-mentioned stuff, so I
have no idea what valuable info can be gleaned (if any); but I'd want to
know more before rejecting them out of hand.

/Silent Running/ is a motion picture, a work of fiction.

It is not a simulation.

That is why it can, indeed, be rejected out-of-hand.

[The Horny Goat]

On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 17:57:11 +0100, Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G
Four people in 1700 square feet for over a year? (If it was a SF story,
at least two of them would have gone mad or been killed.)
What about water? Gravity?

By the standards of undergraduate dorms that's positively luxurious!

[Don_from_AZ]

Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 17:57:11 +0100, Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G
Four people in 1700 square feet for over a year? (If it was a SF story,
at least two of them would have gone mad or been killed.)
What about water? Gravity?

By the standards of undergraduate dorms that's positively luxurious!

Well, yes, but undergraduates get to leave the dorm for classes and
meals at least, and to interact with others in real-time instead of with
simulated light-speed delays. I salute these intrepid pioneers!
-Don-

[The Horny Goat]

On Sat, 20 Jul 2024 08:00:42 -0700, Don_from_AZ

Post by Don_from_AZ

Post by The Horny Goat

Post by Titus G
Four people in 1700 square feet for over a year? (If it was a SF story,
at least two of them would have gone mad or been killed.)
What about water? Gravity?

By the standards of undergraduate dorms that's positively luxurious!

Well, yes, but undergraduates get to leave the dorm for classes and
meals at least, and to interact with others in real-time instead of with
simulated light-speed delays. I salute these intrepid pioneers!

That was NOT my experience of exam times where the only exit from
one's room was either at meal time or to actually go cross campus to
write the exam...

... at least I remember my last exam in my master's program where my
future wife went to my TA's office and studied for her exam (which I
knew) but didn't know she had also brought a bottle of bubbly and ice
bucket - my only clue is that she insisted I bring along my partner on
my graduation project and the 3 of us polished off quite a large
bottle. This was in December and we married the following summer...

[a425couple]

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G
Four people in 1700 square feet for over a year? (If it was a SF story,
at least two of them would have gone mad or been killed.)
What about water? Gravity?

There have been previous exercises.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2
:-)

My daughter took her 7th Grade daughter to the Biosphere
a couple of months ago.

As I remember way back when, it was an early dry run on what
a colony could have been like on Mars (or even the Moon).
The experiment suffered problems, one major problem was
all the calculations of oxygen production to meet needs,
was way off because of concrete curing type issues.

Any way, the grandaughter did not see any indications that
it was an experiment on 'off Earth' living.

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G
Four people in 1700 square feet for over a year? (If it was a SF story,
at least two of them would have gone mad or been killed.)
What about water? Gravity?

There have been previous exercises.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2
:-)

My daughter took her 7th Grade daughter to the Biosphere
a couple of months ago.

As I remember way back when, it was an early dry run on what
a colony could have been like on Mars (or even the Moon).
The experiment suffered problems, one major problem was
all the calculations of oxygen production to meet needs,
was way off because of concrete curing type issues.

Any way, the grandaughter did not see any indications that
it was an experiment on 'off Earth' living.

---------------------------------
I've toured a Boomer, the USS Maine, another closed environment for a place
humans can't survive. Missile tubes make the hull large enough for somewhat
less cramped accommodations than other narrower subs. A large difference
from a colony is that they have plenty of electrical power and stored food
which can be replenished, they have to produce only their air and water.

I experienced communal living during Army training though not on the job, I
was a computer communications tech making solo repair trips in a foreign
country, which suited me just fine.

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G
Four people in 1700 square feet for over a year? (If it was a SF story,
at least two of them would have gone mad or been killed.)
What about water? Gravity?

There have been previous exercises.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2
:-)

-------------------------
Creating a self-supporting ecosystem may require going back to the rural
past:
https://edepot.wur.nl/58719

Note that they built the proverbial two-story outhouse.

Even in town, farmers' houses in rural Germany had pigs under the house and
a "Misthaufen" compost/dung heap outside. Patton commented that the size of
the heap was a status symbol. I never noticed any smell, unlike cow or sheep
manure.

https://clivusmultrum.com/what-we-do.php

https://www.mmsd.com/about-us/milorganite
"Milorganite® is actually a bag of dried microbes (not poop)!"

The concept lends itself to a simple DIY greenhouse operation, though that
may not be enough to qualify for a government grant.

[Cryptoengineer]

Post by Jim Wilkins

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G
Four people in 1700 square feet for over a year? (If it was a SF story,
at least two of them would have gone mad or been killed.)
What about water? Gravity?

There have been previous exercises.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2
:-)

-------------------------
Creating a self-supporting ecosystem may require going back to the rural
https://edepot.wur.nl/58719
Note that they built the proverbial two-story outhouse.
Even in town, farmers' houses in rural Germany had pigs under the house
and a "Misthaufen" compost/dung heap outside. Patton commented that the
size of the heap was a status symbol. I never noticed any smell, unlike
cow or sheep manure.

So does Twain, in 'A Tramp Abroad'.

pt

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by Jim Wilkins
Even in town, farmers' houses in rural Germany had pigs under the house
and a "Misthaufen" compost/dung heap outside. Patton commented that the
size of the heap was a status symbol. I never noticed any smell, unlike
cow or sheep manure.

So does Twain, in 'A Tramp Abroad'.

pt
-------------------------------------
I bought and read that book in Heidelberg, and having explored parts of the
Neckar from below Heilbronn to the Rhine I certainly share his appreciation
for that scenic valley. I had a bicycle and an inflatable boat, either of
which could carry me plus the other. As the token NCO at an officers'
banquet I danced with the Colonel's wife on the floor over the huge wine
barrel under the Heidelberg Schloss, and took a picture through its small
opening, which showed much internal bracing.

Notburga's Cave is merely a niche in the rock wall with a small overhang.
The stream beside it was a tiny trickle. The partly ruined castle across the
river had a nice small restaurant. Twain greatly inflated that incident to
good effect.

North of Heilbronn a 12th century castle was an unrestrained open air refuge
for the largest raptors, which ominously lined the guard rail driving up and
eyed us quietly from their perching posts as we nervously walked past.

Heidelberg wasn't bombed though being prosperous it had been modernized to
the bland stucco fashion after the war. Heilbronn was bombed to ruin and
rebuilt with concrete. The less prosperous small villages around retained
their picturesque medieval architecture (Fachwerk), showing what had been
lost in the cities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_framing

[Jim Wilkins]

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:v7mlht$rc63$***@dont-email.me...

North of Heilbronn a 12th century castle was an unrestrained open air refuge
for the largest raptors, which ominously lined the guard rail driving up and
eyed us quietly from their perching posts as we nervously walked past.

----------------
The castle I visited may have been temporary quarters during renovation of
the permanent one.
https://burg-guttenberg.de/en/greifenwarte/flugvorfuehrungen/

I rarely visited cities because there was so much to see outside them, and
the Army tactical communications centers I served tended to be hidden in
some remote forest or mountain top. Shell road maps were like topo maps,
showing every farm house and the sites of ancient ruins. Castle ruins had
been cleaned up and stabilized to be fairly safe for visitors. Germans never
damaged anything, or left trash or graffiti.

[a425couple]

Post by Jim Wilkins

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G
Four people in 1700 square feet for over a year? (If it was a SF story,
at least two of them would have gone mad or been killed.)
What about water? Gravity?

There have been previous exercises.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2
:-)

-------------------------
Creating a self-supporting ecosystem may require going back to the rural
https://edepot.wur.nl/58719
Note that they built the proverbial two-story outhouse.
Even in town, farmers' houses in rural Germany had pigs under the house
and a "Misthaufen" compost/dung heap outside. Patton commented that the
size of the heap was a status symbol.

Yes, it was quite a scathing opinion.
I'm trying to remember in which of my books that was.

[Jim Wilkins]

Post by Jim Wilkins
Even in town, farmers' houses in rural Germany had pigs under the house
and a "Misthaufen" compost/dung heap outside. Patton commented that the
size of the heap was a status symbol.

Yes, it was quite a scathing opinion.
I'm trying to remember in which of my books that was.

--------------------------------
War as I Knew It?

My favorite observation was by the father of the singing von Trapp family,
the most successful Austrian U-Boot skipper in the Adriatic during WW1. He
described a Montenegrin couple coming to market, the man riding a mule and
the wife on foot, struggling under the bundle of merchandise.

The family sold all rights to the story and had no say in the movie script.
Actually his and Maria's natures were swapped, he was tolerant and
supportive, she was strict with a bad temper, not the free spirit the movie
showed. They escaped by simply boarding a train.

[Paul S Person]

On Mon, 22 Jul 2024 21:28:28 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

Post by a425couple

Post by Jim Wilkins
Even in town, farmers' houses in rural Germany had pigs under the house
and a "Misthaufen" compost/dung heap outside. Patton commented that the
size of the heap was a status symbol.

Yes, it was quite a scathing opinion.
I'm trying to remember in which of my books that was.
--------------------------------
War as I Knew It?
My favorite observation was by the father of the singing von Trapp family,
the most successful Austrian U-Boot skipper in the Adriatic during WW1. He
described a Montenegrin couple coming to market, the man riding a mule and
the wife on foot, struggling under the bundle of merchandise.
The family sold all rights to the story and had no say in the movie script.
Actually his and Maria's natures were swapped, he was tolerant and
supportive, she was strict with a bad temper, not the free spirit the movie
showed. They escaped by simply boarding a train.

The movie I remember (vaguely) was of the musical play based on their
story. Or, rather, their story as crammed into the Standard Formula:

1) two couples, one adult, one young
2) the /adult/ couple thrives
3) the /young/ couple does not

/South Pacific/ uses the same formula.
This is what the 50's (that is, the Greatest Generation) found
romantic. And re-assuring (they identified, of course, with the adult
couple, and took joy in the failure of the young whippersnappers).

Also, at the time, Julie Andrews had a screen image that was
incompatible with "strict with a bad temper" (think /Mary Poppins/).
The film /S.O.B./ makes fun of this by having her play, in effect,
herself -- and ending up doing something very different from her
normal image. By or after /Torn Curtain/, she had definitely moved
beyond her former image. But at the time the play was written/film was
made, her image was still going strong. Which is why the opening song
of /Sound of Music/ is used to torture Wednesday and friends in
/Addams Family Values/.

So it should be no surprise that the characters got switched and the
ending got dramaticized.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Paul S Person" wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...

On Mon, 22 Jul 2024 21:28:28 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

Post by a425couple

Post by Jim Wilkins
Even in town, farmers' houses in rural Germany had pigs under the house
and a "Misthaufen" compost/dung heap outside. Patton commented that the
size of the heap was a status symbol.

Yes, it was quite a scathing opinion.
I'm trying to remember in which of my books that was.
--------------------------------
War as I Knew It?
My favorite observation was by the father of the singing von Trapp family,
the most successful Austrian U-Boot skipper in the Adriatic during WW1. He
described a Montenegrin couple coming to market, the man riding a mule and
the wife on foot, struggling under the bundle of merchandise.
The family sold all rights to the story and had no say in the movie script.
Actually his and Maria's natures were swapped, he was tolerant and
supportive, she was strict with a bad temper, not the free spirit the movie
showed. They escaped by simply boarding a train.

The movie I remember (vaguely) was of the musical play based on their
story. Or, rather, their story as crammed into the Standard Formula:

1) two couples, one adult, one young
2) the /adult/ couple thrives
3) the /young/ couple does not

/South Pacific/ uses the same formula.
This is what the 50's (that is, the Greatest Generation) found
romantic. And re-assuring (they identified, of course, with the adult
couple, and took joy in the failure of the young whippersnappers).

Also, at the time, Julie Andrews had a screen image that was
incompatible with "strict with a bad temper" (think /Mary Poppins/).
The film /S.O.B./ makes fun of this by having her play, in effect,
herself -- and ending up doing something very different from her
normal image. By or after /Torn Curtain/, she had definitely moved
beyond her former image. But at the time the play was written/film was
made, her image was still going strong. Which is why the opening song
of /Sound of Music/ is used to torture Wednesday and friends in
/Addams Family Values/.

So it should be no surprise that the characters got switched and the
ending got dramaticized.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Paul S Person" wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...


The movie I remember (vaguely) was of the musical play based on their
story. Or, rather, their story as crammed into the Standard Formula:

1) two couples, one adult, one young
2) the /adult/ couple thrives
3) the /young/ couple does not

/South Pacific/ uses the same formula.
This is what the 50's (that is, the Greatest Generation) found
romantic. And re-assuring (they identified, of course, with the adult
couple, and took joy in the failure of the young whippersnappers).

Also, at the time, Julie Andrews had a screen image that was
incompatible with "strict with a bad temper" (think /Mary Poppins/).
The film /S.O.B./ makes fun of this by having her play, in effect,
herself -- and ending up doing something very different from her
normal image. By or after /Torn Curtain/, she had definitely moved
beyond her former image. But at the time the play was written/film was
made, her image was still going strong. Which is why the opening song
of /Sound of Music/ is used to torture Wednesday and friends in
/Addams Family Values/.

So it should be no surprise that the characters got switched and the
ending got dramaticized.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Paul S Person" wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...

On Mon, 22 Jul 2024 21:28:28 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

...

The movie I remember (vaguely) was of the musical play based on their
story. Or, rather, their story as crammed into the Standard Formula:

1) two couples, one adult, one young
2) the /adult/ couple thrives
3) the /young/ couple does not

/South Pacific/ uses the same formula.
This is what the 50's (that is, the Greatest Generation) found
romantic. And re-assuring (they identified, of course, with the adult
couple, and took joy in the failure of the young whippersnappers).

-----------------------------------
Georg von Trapp's first wife died from scarlet fever. He has a light weight
affair with a socialite before Maria snares him. They stayed together until
his early death, likely resulting from the poisonous fumes in the
gasoline-powered U-Boot. The daughter's romance with the singing Nazi boy
ended when they left.

In "South Pacific" American nurse Nellie Forbush falls for older French
plantation owner Emile De Becque who has many children from affairs with
various local women, some dark Polynesians who Forbush, from Little Rock,
can't separate from Negros. She avoids strife at home by staying with him.
The other romance is between Lt Cable and a Tonkinese (Vietnamese) girl he
knows won't be accepted back home in Philadelphia. His heroic death is the
resolution. External events separated both young couples.

[Paul S Person]

On Wed, 24 Jul 2024 18:07:07 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 22 Jul 2024 21:28:28 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

...

The movie I remember (vaguely) was of the musical play based on their
1) two couples, one adult, one young
2) the /adult/ couple thrives
3) the /young/ couple does not
/South Pacific/ uses the same formula.
This is what the 50's (that is, the Greatest Generation) found
romantic. And re-assuring (they identified, of course, with the adult
couple, and took joy in the failure of the young whippersnappers).
-----------------------------------
Georg von Trapp's first wife died from scarlet fever. He has a light weight
affair with a socialite before Maria snares him. They stayed together until
his early death, likely resulting from the poisonous fumes in the
gasoline-powered U-Boot. The daughter's romance with the singing Nazi boy
ended when they left.

I don't think he didn't in the film (and so likely not in the play).

I'm surprised the daughter's romance wasn't made up out of whole
cloth. But perhaps it was, and you are including real-life and
fictional elements together willy-nilly in the belief they contradict
the pattern presented.

Post by Paul S Person
In "South Pacific" American nurse Nellie Forbush falls for older French
plantation owner Emile De Becque who has many children from affairs with
various local women, some dark Polynesians who Forbush, from Little Rock,
can't separate from Negros. She avoids strife at home by staying with him.
The other romance is between Lt Cable and a Tonkinese (Vietnamese) girl he
knows won't be accepted back home in Philadelphia. His heroic death is the
resolution. External events separated both young couples.

IIRC, a theater in Little Rock was firebombed and burned to the ground
for daring so show /South Pacific/, a film depicting the products of
miscegenation. Semi-fascist ultra-MAGA types have been around for a
lot longer than a certain D. Trump.

And the brave Defenders of the White Race who destroyed the theater
didn't distinguish between "Polynesian" and "African" (or, for that
matter, "sub-continental Indian") either. They weren't fond of
Orientals and Roman Catholics (however white). They just hated them
all. And still do, of course.

In both cases, the adult couples get married which, in the 50's was
Success with a capital "S". How long either partner lasted after that
was not important.

And, in both cases, the budding love of the younger couple was
bitterly ended by cruel fate. What, you thought these things ended
because they broke up over some teenage nonsense? Actually killing the
Lt off for daring to fall in love with a non-white person was the only
possible solution. Still didn't compensate for the miscegenation,
however.

The singing Nazi boy may or may not have survived the war; the
relationship did not, and that is all that matters.

IIRC, /The King and I/ followed the same pattern, although I no longer
recall how the young couple fared in the Yul Brynner film of the
musical. In the animated version, of course, both couples do just fine
but then, that was done for the kiddies. This does make the King look
better, especially the rescue.